Episode 28: Stop Over-Therapizing Your Relationship: Why Labels Are Killing Real Connection

Are we becoming too self-aware for our own good?

In this episode, we dive into the growing trend of over-therapizing relationships—where every conflict gets labeled, every emotion gets analyzed, and every partner gets diagnosed. While self-awareness and therapy tools can be powerful, overusing them can actually create distance instead of connection.

We unpack how labeling your partner as “narcissistic,” “avoidant,” or “toxic” can strip away the human element of relationships—and why curiosity, not diagnosis, is the key to deeper connection. From navigating conflict without over-intellectualizing it, to recognizing patterns vs. one-off behaviors, we share real-life experiences, relationship dynamics, and practical ways to communicate without turning everything into a therapy session.

If you’ve ever found yourself overanalyzing your partner, seeking constant validation, or trying to “figure out” every emotion instead of feeling it—this episode is for you.

Because not everything needs a label… sometimes it just needs understanding. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast is for the woman who refuses to settle. The one who knows she was made for more. It's for the audacious woman who is ready to burn the ship, own her story, and create a life built on radical self-belief.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

I'm Amanda Galloway. I'm Ashton Greer. We are your podcast hosts, and we welcome you to the Audacity Podcast. Good morning, America. Welcome to our new studio.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Oh, yes. Amanda and I set up a pretty professional little studio. We're going to try YouTube. YouTube. We'll see how things go. Oh, the amount of time people spend on YouTube in my household. My children. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Do you watch a lot of YouTube? No, I I never watch YouTube. I don't even know. I will watch Reels on Instagram, but not YouTube. Do you TikTok? I deleted TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

I did too. Too much time. Agreed. TikTok's gone. I don't have Snapchat. I have only Instagram and Facebook. Same. I really give very little attention to Instagram. Facebook is the bane of my existence, but I I have to be on there because of all the businesses that I manage their po pages.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

I don't like any of it, but I do spend more time. I probably spend more time on Instagram. I like the visual component of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah.

unknown 1:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Instagram's nice. It's nice. So what's new? Well, I have red hair. She's a redhead. Yep. I How did that happen? Well, I went snorkeling in the ocean in Cancun. Saw a Barracuda. Yeah. Thought it might die.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

It did not attack. It did not.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Did not attack me. Uh big teeth though. Big teeth. So I saw a Barracuda. Went snorkeling. You know, immediately going into the water was like, oh, my hair's gonna get so messed up. You know, I have extensions, I have a lot of hair, it's super blonde. But I was like, but I'm not missing out on snorkeling in Cancun. They had this cool like underwater museum. Oh, interesting. So you like dive down and then you see like statues and stuff that have been there for hundreds of years in the ocean. Very cool. But the Barracuda was the best part. But anyway, I went diving or snorkeling and then I got back in the boat and I notice my hair and the sun as it's drying out and it's orange. It's turned orange. And it's only my extensions that have turned orange. So the top part of my hair is still blonde. The bottom part of my hair is orange. And I was like, okay, maybe this will like wash out, you know? So I get back to my house after Cancun and I have this purple shampoo and like I'm washing my hair and like doing this special conditioning treatment and I look in the mirror and it's still orange. And so then I was like, well, if I can't get rid of this on my extensions, I'm just going to use like a subtle copper toner on my hair to make it all match. And it turned my hair like bright orange. So I've had this like flaming orange hair now for a week and I kind of like it.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

You can pull it off. Thank you. Yeah, it's pretty. Thank you. Yeah. I really do like it. I could not do that color on me. It would not look good.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

So I'm kind of honestly enjoying it, and I think I might go with strawberry blonde hair for like the next few months.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Like just get it like professionally made strawberry blonde. Yeah. Oh, that'd be pretty. And like some blonde highlights through it. Yeah. And yeah, just lean in. Again, we are a beauty podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

We are. Every we do give a beauty tip like every time. I feel like that is true. So if you have blonde extensions, just take that into consideration before you get into the ocean.

unknown 3:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Well, extensions are so expensive too. They are. And these are new. So like I just got them and now they're orange. And I mean they're expensive. Yeah. So I'm like, well, I could either be like mad about it or I could, you know, see the glasses half full and just be like, well, you know, at least I still have pretty long hair. Yeah. And I'm trying this new fun color. Yeah. And I got to snorkel and not be mad about it. Can you dye them back? No. I mean. I mean maybe, but my hairdresser is like they'll never be the same.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Because it literally absorbs the heavy metals in the ocean water. Oh. So like the copper and the ocean water and the iron and whatever is what made my hair orange.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Interesting. Okay. Mm-hmm. Well, um, last week I had Bobby here.

unknown 4:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah. Beauty. And it was such a long podcast episode. I think it was like an hour and 20 minutes. We had so many tech issues. She was telling me I was I saw her this week and she was telling me she felt bad about how long it was and how long it took. I I wasn't mad about it. I felt bad. She's just such a busy woman that I was trying to be cautious of her time. So are you though? She is just so sweet. I really like her. She has great, great, great advice and she's just a good person. She is.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

So um she really is a very like kind, assumes the best, neutral. I don't know, a girl's girl. She is.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

She's got a really good heart, and she's super, super successful and motivated as well. And I love I love that combination. Yeah, she's very passionate in what she does, if you couldn't tell from the episode. So if you haven't listened to it, go back and take a listen. There's so much advice from, you know, botox to hormone replacement therapy. It was, it was a really good episode. Yeah. But very long, but we figured it out. And she has her own studio set up because she also has a podcast, and it was so cool. And now we're kind of taking some notes and trying to figure it out ourselves. So this is a journey, as we said from the beginning. We literally started this podcast on the floor. We finally have a couch, crisscross applesauce, dirty floor. Yes. And now we have a sign and a couch. A velvet couch. Yes, it's so pretty. And this is our aesthetic. So this is perfect. Yeah, look at this textured wall. It's so pretty. My mom painted that. Yeah, she did a great job. So um, yeah, we have a new studio and we will continue to improve on this because lighting is very complicated and getting the visual with the cameras can be a little complicated. So we're figuring it out as we go. But um, let's go ahead and get into today's topic. What is Ashton?

SPEAKER_01 6:17

So today we're gonna talk about over-therapizing relationships. So we've all probably experienced the, you know, the situation where you have a disagreement with somebody or you don't like somebody or something happens, and then somebody says to you, well, like, well, they're, you know, they're bipolar, or like gives, you know, or they're they must be, I don't know, whatever diagnosis you want to see. Say OCD, oh, that they're just OCD, or oh, you're triggering them. And there's all this therapy language that's used around relationships, and it can really start to take over the conversation and also give you like labels to villainize people. And I've seen this a lot. I've had it happen to me. I've I'm guilty of doing this to people that I'm like in conflict with. And I think when we apply this principle to relationships, we can really start to lose the human element of relating to people. And honestly, every person, I I think every person has a mental health diagnosis. We could all be labeled with something.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about this when it came to what my my big breakup. I know I refer to it a lot, but the after effect, the after effect of it was I needed to find a reason why it happened. And like in reflection, it's ridiculous. But I was trying to figure out a mental diagnosis to my ex instead of just being like, I don't know, just accepting it and moving on.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Well, well, I think we've all been like, well, he must be a narcissist, you know, or she's a narcissist, or yeah, and then realizing like narcissism, obviously in extreme cases, that it is a personality disorder, but also it's like a spectrum, and everybody has some narcissism because some narcissism is actually good for your survival. Yes. Because if you didn't have some selfishness, you would like literally just give yourself to everybody. And it's overused that word.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

I hate that word. Uh, I do think that that I truly think that people after a breakup will just fling that word around because it's an easy way to just be like, it's them, it's not me. Right. And at the end of the day, if you constantly are looking at things as it's somebody else's fault and not yours, you're always playing the victim. And that is not going to help you heal. That's not going to help you move on. It's just not a healthy place to be. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

And I think that if you get too into the therapy world with your intimate relationships, you kind of feel it kind of feels like all conflict is bad or something. Like we have this fight, and so then it's like, well, he triggered me. And like, you know, he wasn't an emotionally safe space. And you can kind of get into this world of like, they become these ultimatums of like, you cross my boundary and you're not emotionally safe. And so you're bad. And there is there is a time where that's valid where people do cross boundaries and they they aren't emotionally safe, and that's fine. But there has to be room in relationships for conflict, misunderstandings, emotional stretching, so that we can try to understand the other person versus like labeling them or just like shutting them off because they made you uncomfortable. And it's a balance, like a very delicate balance, because you can be with somebody who maybe does have a tendency to have more narcissistic traits or to be selfish or their self-defense mechanisms are strong. And so when you get into conflict, they immediately go into self-defense, like all that's real. But giving them a label or like shout, you know, shouting at them like, you've crossed my boundary isn't really that helpful in conflict resolution. Instead, you have to kind of get in their shoes.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yes. So I'm glad that you brought this up, but I'm going to back it up a little bit. Yeah. Overtherapizing relationships happen when we start treating every normal human moment like it needs deep analysis labels or fixing. It sounds healthy, but it can actually create distance instead of connection. And during conflict, finding connection is the way where you move forward with it. So if you're always looking at it somebody else's problem and you're not reflecting it, like you said, in their shoes, you're not going to find a resolution. You're going to continue building up tension and you're always finding issues within the relationship and you're trying to diagnose your partner. And there's just that's not the way a healthy relationship is going to move forward and progress. But I wanted to give a little bit more of context of what that what that word means.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, that's good. It reminds me of uh a show that I've been watching. That there's this scene where this girl goes to college and she gets to college and she meets her college roommate. And her college roommate comes in and is like, turn that music off. I have a boundary with that kind of music. I like, you know, here's these are my ferrets. They live here. I like, and she's like very like, you know, she's like, I like the ferrets. Yeah. So this roommate has all these. She's like, I need quiet this time of day, and like I'm gonna lay here and don't disturb me. And these are my boundaries. And she comes in with these super harsh boundaries. And the girl, the girl that, you know, meets her, the very sweet, you know, innocent, naive teenager. She's like, but I like, can we talk? Like I want to be friends, you know? And the girl's like, no, from this time to this time I meditate. And like just has like all these boundaries. And basically, it reminded me of if you have premature boundaries in relationships, like you have these super harsh boundaries, instead of allowing people to earn your trust, these rigid rules early on leave very little room for relationship. Yes. Or relational growth or negotiation over relationships require negotiated contract, negotiated boundaries. Not this is my way or the highway, this is my boundary, but no, like, hey, let's talk about this thing and see what boundary we can put into place to make sure we both feel safe.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Allowing people to be people. One of when I started my dating list of what I wanted, one of them was someone who wasn't angry. Now, men, that is their predominant feeling when something doesn't work out or there is anger. So if I always go in with that lens of like, I can't have a partner who's angry, well, that's not going to work with a majority of men because it's it's how they're wired, unfortunately. So one of the things that I noticed in my relationship was when Antonia would get angry, we would kind of back it up and find, you know, something that would ground us and like go on a walk or something like that to bring it back. And over time, because we've addressed it, it's no longer an issue. Yeah. But so I think having firm boundaries can be dangerous because it's not all about you. And I think over-therapizing is being selfish.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Well, modern therapy culture can sometimes emphasize like my needs, you know, my healing, my peace. Like this is what I need for my peace. Now, that's really helpful if you are a codependent or a people pleaser. It's really helpful to learn those things. But if you overdo it, you are missing out on mutual sacrifice and like shared responsibility and relationship and learning consideration of the other person. If you're constantly focused on, well, these are my needs, this is what I need, and these are my boundaries, and this is this is my my peace is my top priority. And you you never allow, you don't give yourself margin for relationship because relationships require conflict. Yes. Any close or deep relationship will disrupt your peace to a degree.

unknown 14:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Now you don't want it to like steal your peace, and you do have to have self-respect and know what you need and all of that. But if we over-therapise, we can over-therapize ourselves out of anything meaningful and be alone.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

There was this couple that they were always working on their relationships. They're were constantly issues. They went to therapy all the time.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

That's it, it was one thing after another, just constant therapy. Now, I think therapy is obviously needed in in many situations, especially before if a divorce is about to happen and you need a third party. Yes, I'm all about it. But when you're constantly looking at an angle from therapy, you're not going you're constantly living in the past rather than figuring out a way to be present and moving forward in your relationship.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Yeah. I absolutely I had a I had one of my they got divorced, by the way. Yeah.

unknown 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Well, I think we can easily start to like fixate on our relationship and try to find problems all the time. And it, it, I don't know, it can become like an obsession. But I had a partner say to me, somebody I was dating, like, I got into this issue that I had a problem with. And I got like super deep into it and made it about like my self-worth and like I love myself and like this is my boundary. And he stopped me and he was like, Why does I have to be all that? He said, Why can't you just say to me, hey, I don't want you to do this thing. Um, it makes me feel bad. It makes me sad. And um, you know, I'm not villainizing you, or like, you know, basically in the communication, I'm not villainizing you, I'm not villain it's not that. It's just this thing makes me feel bad and it makes me uncomfortable. And I, in my relationship, this is this is something I would really like to request. And he was like, But every time you like get go deep down this rabbit hole of like trauma, self-protection. Yeah. And but he was like, it doesn't have to be like that. You can literally just ask and not project it onto the other person like it's their problem.

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

But just say, This is what I need. And he was like, uh someone who respects you and loves you will then ask the questions they need to ask, like, well, why, or whatever. But if you you can make everything mean a lot more than it means, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. With your own wounds and securities, traumas. Something small can feel really big when it doesn't have to be like that. Right.

unknown 16:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I feel like sometimes the more you know, the more tormented you are.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, and it pigeonholes you, right? You're always looking through that lens of, oh, I have an anxious attachment style. So you're only looking through that lens of, oh, this is why I act like this. And it's okay that I act like this because this is my wound. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

This is the wound, and this is my core need, and this is my core purpose, and this is like it's like me, me, me, me, me. Yeah. And so then you like go through like this mental maze of all the things. And if you overintellectualize your emotions, you actually don't feel them. Like you're not feeling them and expressing them. And you start analyzing people instead of trying to understand them. Yes. Instead of like having empathy for them, you start to psychoanalyze them and you label them and you diagnose them in yourself and you instead of experiencing relationship with them, you start trying to explain your relationship with them. Yeah. Instead of like just experiencing it. And not everything can be understood too. There's not a label for everything. Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

Yeah. People are so complex and you can. I mean, there's all these personality tests. And it's great. It provides you contextual information on how to collaborate with other people, especially in the workforce. I find it a very dynamic tool, which is helpful. And I mean, even in relationships. However, if I am seeing my partner as an Enneagram eight all the time, I'm also missing the actual parts of him that are not an Enneagram eight. And I'm seeing it from a lens of I'm assuming he's an Enneagram eight. I have no idea. Instead of seeing the complex human that he is with life experiences.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

Well, the thing about the Enneagram that they teach you is that we're all every number. We just have our dominant number. So we all have every, we all have every part bit of it in us. It's just we all have a predominant personality type. But it is easy to just put people in boxes. And I think we I honestly think for me at least, the reason I do this in relationships or with other people is like you said, you want to know why. Like in your breakup, you just wanted to understand like why did he do this? Right. Why did this happen? And so instead of like digging into the deep emotions of like this hurts, I'm hurt, I'm grieving, I'm mourning. We start to go into an intellectual realm to try to comprehend what happened. And I don't think everything can be comprehended. I think that so much of what happens in relation with other people, especially close relationships, it's spiritual. It's it's about like some relationships are karmic where you just had something that that person needed to teach you. And there there's a wound that is going to keep opening up in your life, and so you keep being with this sort of person or whatever until you heal it. And it's not about them and it's not about their personality type or their narcissist or whatever. It's about the dynamic and why you were drawn to each other in the first place and that polarity. And what what lesson were you teaching each other? And if you can take that approach of, I'm not going to dehumanize this person, I'm not going to label them, I'm not going to make them a villain and me a victim and you know, the drama triangle, like we've talked about. If instead we can just take a balcony view, like get up on the balcony, look down at the situation. Oh, there was a lot that we both had to learn. We both sucked in these ways. Like, I don't know, we over-therapise or overintellectualize painful breakups, pain in relationships, because it hurts less if you can logic your way through it.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

But yeah, you create it more of a project.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

And that's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Yeah. Instead of just getting curious, I like to get curious about it. This hurts.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah. This hurts. Being curious and also accepting the person as they are. There are some qualities that are going to annoy you about your partner. That is just part of every single relationship, even with your parents and your friends. But accepting them for who they are, also internalizing why is that bothering me? Maybe it's something that I have that I don't like about myself. You know, you never know what the dynamic is, but be curious, ask questions, but do not put a therapeutic label on it. One, you're not a therapist. Two, it doesn't help you look internally. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

I have seen it's almost like I think this happens in in a lot of things, but it's a pendulum swing. So I think we all have things that we have to learn in our lives, but I see people who I'm gonna try to make this make sense. They're overgivers, they're people pleasers, they are self sacrificing, they don't have self love. And so they overgive, overgive, overgive. Okay. Right. And then eventually, maybe in therapy or through an experience, they realize people are taking advantage of me. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

I see where you're going with this.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

And then they swing all the way over to the other side where they hate people. Yes. Okay. And so they get to the other side and they're like, oh, this person's a terrible person. So and so's a narcissist. You know, and I we all are thinking of somebody right now that is so jaded, so bitter by their overgiving that now people are threats. So if they're not, if the person's not perfect, they're awful, essentially. Yeah. So these people swing all the way over. And then with healing, it can come to center of wisdom that self-abandonment is not the answer. Self-protection is not the answer. It's somewhere in the middle. And it's grounded self-love and security in yourself. It's not villainizing other people. It's not overgiving to other people to make them love you or to validate yourself or whatever. Those are the two ends two ends of the spectrum. But it's truly arriving in that center place of people are people. Hurt people, hurt people. If somebody does something hurtful to me, they're probably hurting. They probably have some pain in their in their life or background. Are they a villain? No. Did they do something bad? Maybe. You know, but there's this pendulum that I see in people. And I I I saw this reel yesterday and it really struck me. It said, every codependent is narcissistic. And every and every narcissist is codependent. And I don't know if I I don't know if I agree with this. I literally have been thinking about it for like two days. But that's doing exactly what we're telling our audience not to do. Exactly. Well, that was my that was my point.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Is this you know like but that's going to resonate with someone who is needing that, right? Looking for that. So label. I have a question for you. Okay. So I had someone in my life who is on one end of the spectrum, and everything is self-protection mode. And it's really, really hard to be friends with people like that because there's always something happening in their lives where, and I know our audience is thinking of someone right now too, that is there's always something. There's always self-protection. There's always like analyzing people psychologically instead of just being like, hey, I notice that I am self-protecting and I need to come like back to the middle of the pendulum. But from the people who do have to interact with people like that, how do you find a balance? Is it just accepting them for who they are and just knowing, like, hey, I probably won't go to them during these situations. I know my boundaries with this person.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

My brain, when I hang out with somebody who's like, so-and-so's a bitch, and I hate this person, and they're a terrible person, and like that's their language about people. My brain immediately goes to share nothing, nothing deep with this person. So, like it's more like be very guarded. Like this person could turn on you. You do one thing wrong. Now you're a terrible person too to everybody. Like so, my brain just knows this person has a wound. They're very self-protective. But if I do something that they don't like or don't agree with, I will be villainized. And so I'm very I I don't walk on eggshells. I'm just very selective about what I share and how close I get to someone who isn't healed in that way. That's really good advice. Yeah. Just give yourself safety in that you're you don't become enmeshed with somebody like that. Because if you don't please them or you do something that is counter to what they believe, these people like this also typically have really strong political views or that's funny that you're about to say that because I noticed this in the the what's the word I'm looking for, but the very strong feminists.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Yes. The ones who it's just it's a toxic, you know, you hear toxic masculinity. There's also toxic femininity. There's both. And it's I love that there's feminism in this world and we're becoming more aware and creating change. But there's also that root of I hate men, all men are evil, and because they're hurt by men. And yeah, some men do suck. They do. But some women suck. Exactly. Exactly. So it's interesting to see that polarity of that extreme. And that's what came to mind when you were talking about seeing that in other people is like that extreme feminism. It's same with I I don't have a lot of knowledge on extreme masculinity, but I imagine that is similar to uh I think you do have knowledge on extreme masculinity. I think you like toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah. I think okay. I think you lived it, probably.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Well, it wasn't it was a culture. It was a culture. I don't think it was exactly I don't think it came from a wound. I think it came from the culture and the environment in which he experienced.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Toxic masculinity is like my children will say to me, because of things they've learned from their dad. They'll like, they'll say to me, Well, mom, it's be like the reason you're not driving well is because you're a woman. Women can't women can't drive. Yeah. Like I'm thinking of Andrew Tate. Or like, yeah, well, I'm trying to think of something else again. My my kids will say things to me like, Well, my ex-husband used to say to me, woman. Okay. So then my kids started, my child, my boys started being like, woman. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I gotta get out of here. Um and I did. But you know, it's just like that sort of mindset that you're below them.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah. And I look at it from at least with my ex-husband, he was not like that, but it was a cultural, it's how he grew up. It is a culture of the farm family, how he grew up, and it wasn't from a place of, like I said, a wound. But the the difference here is being curious about it, being curious about people and their I I actually have a really good example.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

So my fiance is writing, wrote a book called Americano. It's coming out May 5th. Yay, yeah. So a little plug. I'm so proud of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

We need like a little sound effect like clapping and whooping.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

But if I can, I will. So one of the things that he said in his book that really it was just like it's such an awareness piece was being curious about different cultures instead of putting a stereotype on someone. So a good example of this was there was this woman that I interacted with the other day. I had breakfast with her. And we could not connect. There was something I could not figure out about her.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I I didn't try to say, or like in my mind, I was not like, oh, she's a narcissist and there's something wrong with her. I I actually was just curious about it.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

And then she went up to speak, and I noticed she had an accent, which I didn't hear before. And I was like, I think she was German. So I was like, that's very interesting. I think it might be a cultural thing of how we did not interact well, like Americans with Germans and females. Like, I don't, I'll have to explore that a little bit deeper, but it took away my view of her being a bitch into perspective of, oh, maybe this is just a cultural difference and I can explore it more. I didn't think she was a bitch, just to be fair. I was just curious. So when you can look at the lens of people through curiosity instead of a project, you're going to get a lot farther in life and in your relationships. You will have much healthier relations relationships and you'll just be more joyful. You'll have more fun in your relationships. Like if you're constantly therapizing it, you are going to constantly just be in this rigid state and you're not going to be open and playful and curious and you know, have fun in your relationships.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

It reminds me of a problem I have in relationships, is that I have trust issues, like major trust issues. And so I'm hyper-vigilant. I am hyper-vigilant. Like I watch everything. So, but if I'm constantly watching my partner, I can't enjoy my partner. Right. I'm like in suspicion mode. Like I can't actually ever just like exhale into the relationship, like breathe. Like I'm safe, you know. Instead, every experience I've had since my marriage, I don't have trust like at all. And so I don't actually enjoy the relationship that much because I constantly assume that they're gonna betray me because of my trauma. So but that's good that you're also being curious about yourself. Yeah. Well, what I'm saying is I've gotten better at it. So like you have awareness, is like, oh, this is like my hypervigilance is literally controlling my life. Uh, I can't enjoy my life at all. And so it's still a challenge. I still struggle with this because I don't want to be lied to, betrayed, deceived again, ever again in my life. Like, fuck that. But um, I also really can't prevent that. I can't control other people. You can't. So, like being in a relationship means, oh, I could be betrayed again. Uh, okay. Yeah, accepting it. Yeah, this can happen.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Yeah. So I am a bit of a jealous person. If you didn't know this about me. Oh, yeah. I mentioned another friend of mine that's like, who?

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Who are you having lunch with? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

No, I really don't care. But one of the things that I've noticed in my relationship is when I am constantly having this self-protection mode, I'm not being curious and allowing for humans to be humans. Right. Like we had a I called you about a situation not too long ago. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what? Like I I don't understand. Like I'm getting so emotional about it and I'm thinking about it from my lens. But when I can step back and see it from his perspective and just knowing the character and who he is, I was like, Patterns. Yeah. Patterns, patterns. Patterns, patterns do matter. That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

And that's not a pattern.

unknown 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

If something happens like it's a one-off, you're like, okay, I don't really like that. You tell your partner, hey, I don't really like that person. And in an agreement. Yeah. You have an agreement. You have a discussion. We create, you know, a contract around it. This is how we're handling these things, you know, for both of us. But if it's a pattern, like you're constantly catching your partner on Snapchat with other women or something crazy like that. Um he did not do that. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what happened. But you know, any sort of pattern, or like you notice that he's really flirty with people at work and you start to notice, okay, this is feeling really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

But if it's also accepting, like he is a very enthusiastic, extroverted person, like you are. Yeah. But accepting that part of them. So he may come acl across flirty to some people.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

But in reality, that's just his personality, and you have to accept it.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. So being like Antonio, I've had ex-boyfriends actually three multiple times all the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

You're married to one.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah. That was Yeah, all the time. All my exes at some point, except with the exception of one who's very self-competent, which is what I need because I am outgoing, um, have been like, I don't really like, you know, the way you talk to so-and-so tonight. Or like, you can't wear that because you get too much attention. And so like there's always been this from my partner dynamic of like starting to feel jealous because I talk to I can talk to anyone. Yeah. I can talk to everyone. I make friends everywhere that I go or whatever. And so then if if you're with an insecure partner, even though I have no bad intentions, I have not cheated. Like that's not my story. Even though I'm a very loyal person and I've given them no reason to think that I would or whatever, there's still an insecurity that comes out that puts me in a lens in their mind because of their insecurity, which is I'm sure how you and Antonio can feel.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

And I also realize that you cannot, there are some things not worth saying. Yeah. There are some things that are not worth a discussion over because it's actually going to hurt the relationship more than it's going to help their relationship.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Unless you can say it this way. I feel like I want to have a discussion with you, but I want to acknowledge that this is 100% my insecurity.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

If you can like be self-aware enough to be like, I know this probably isn't real. I know this is probably in my mind. I mean, I've had to be that person where I've been like, hey, I know this is annoying. I know you don't want to cater to my insecurities. And I'm sorry, I will you have a short conversation with me about something I'm feeling really nervous about. If you have a loving partner, they're gonna be like, oh, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Yes, but I will say that may also be not always the case, looking for extern external validation. So when I said not everything is worth saying, some things are worth examining in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Before before even having, or even if you have that conversation, because it may not be worth it when you're, especially if you realize you're looking for validation outside of yourself to heal this part of you that is like this jealousy part. Like if I'm always looking for my partner to make me feel safe and you know, reassure me constantly, it's going to eventually wear on the relationship over time. At some point, you have to just be like, hey, this is my problem.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

I need to heal this. And, you know, a lot of it is just stopping the rabbit hole that you can find yourself spiraling into. There are conversations that you have in your head that are spiraling. Like I've created so much conflict in my head that wasn't even a situation. Right. So the first part is seeing that pattern within yourself and stopping it and being logical. Like if I'm feeling jealous with Antonio, you know, maybe he had lunch with a female in his office and it's completely platonic, then I need to stop myself, be like, oh, here I am creating a scenario. He's already cheating on me. And he's on he literally just sat by her at the cafeteria at the caterpillar facility, and it's not anything worth being concerned about.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

It's that catastrophizing that we do though, in that hypervigilance. Yes. So they're the same thing. We catastrophize, worst case scenario, hypervigilance. Why? Because we want to protect ourselves from being betrayed, blindsided. Right. And we so if we can figure it out beforehand, you know, then we're not gonna be surprised and we're not gonna be, you know. And it might be a self-fulfilling prophecy if you keep going at it. Yeah. If I mean if you keep if you keep thinking my partner's gonna cheat, my partner's gonna cheat on me, my partner's gonna cheat on me. They might cheat. They might cheat on you.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

But if you can actually if you know you can actually trust them and find that validation within yourself, I just think it allows for the relationship to be stronger instead of weaker through these constant needs for external validation.

SPEAKER_01 37:45

Well, I saw this image that said it's a it was a bird, like a sparrow in somebody's hand. Okay. And it said like possession or like trying to think of the word, like connection with somebody, but passion looks like this, and it was like the hand was clasped around the bird, and its little head was poking out of the hand, just like kind of looking around. But he was like holding on to the bird, and then it was like love looks like this, and the bird was perched in the hand. Yes, could fly away, could leave, could go, but the bird was just sitting there in the hand. But like freedom to come and go to be a person, to experience, to love, and to like possession of someone does not allow them freedom of choice, the ability to like truly evolve into the person that they are. And love is an open hand with your bird. And this is what I want from my partner.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

So I want to give that to my, you know, I want to give that to the person that I'm with as well. Like you have the choice. You can betray me. It's your choice. I could betray you, it's my choice. We're not taking that away from each other, but we're gonna choose each other every day.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

I love that you said choose each other every day. Yeah. Antonio says that too. It is it is really truly being just dedicated to your partner every single day. You know, if you do have conflict, you're still dedicated to resolving it rather and not over therapizing it and just choosing to be curious and open-minded and not trying to, like you said, be super protective. Yeah. That's a really good point. I love that analogy.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Thank you. Every now and then I have a good idea, a good thought. It happens sometimes. You do. You have many good thoughts. Uh so just kind of to sum this up, this this episode. Not every disagreement you have is toxic or traumatizing, or oh, we fight, so we're not compatible. Over therapizing makes people overinterpret behavior. So my partner has a bad day and suddenly I'm like, he's just emotionally unavailable. But no, like he had a bad day. We have a disagreement, Amanda and I. I'm not, I don't go to somebody like, she's been gaslighting me. Like, yeah, you know, she's so self-absorbed. Like, you know, it's not it's not that just or maybe Amanda needs space from me for a week. She's kind of upset, she needs a little space. She's not avoidant, she doesn't have avoidant attachment issues. She just needs space. We can easily take normal human behavior and then start to be like, oh yeah, Amanda's just an avoidant, or she's so she gas she gaslights me or whatever. Anyway, um, but the point is uh you have to give people margin to be cut to be human. I think what you actually need to look at is patterns. And people are allowed to people, but if somebody is consistently, you know, gaslighting you, never validating you, being sneaky, dishonest, lying, whatever, that's you know, probably a thing. But if it's like every now and then your friend has a bad day or you and your partner have a fight, totally normal. We don't need to overtherapise everything.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Can I also put in Don't chat GPT your relationship? Don't go to chat GPT for relationship help. Don't do it. I know you're I know I know you're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

You're triggering me right now, Amanda. Not you. I'm talking to our I know. I'm literally talking to someone right now because I have Liz and that is so triggering. I would really appreciate it if you would not gaslight my relationship strategies. Yeah. ChatGPT and I are besties, and I get like the best advice from ChatGPT. And like, please, like you're being so judgmental.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Literally wanna throw up right now. So Antonio sent me this article of this woman. It was on stuff, Substack, and she had this um, she had used her boyfriend's laptop and was on Chaty. We're gonna call it, we're gonna call it Chatty G Claude, whoever it was. And what it was essentially saying was like, you're not the problem she is. And it was telling it, telling him like all these things that could potentially be wrong with her, like I think it was like OCD, blah, blah, blah, like eating disorder, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was validating him instead of providing clarity on, hey, like, yeah, maybe it's you.

unknown 42:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Or be curious. Like, have you thought about like maybe how to help her? How to be how to be there for her.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Instead, it was like, you need to leave her. They broke up. I mean, they broke up eventually.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

But I bet if she put her side of the story in, ChatGPT would be like, you're totally valid. Da-da-da-da-da. He's clearly da-da-da-da-da. Anyway, I did this before. ChatGPT is your friend.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

And it made my but I actually I told Antonio this the other day. I literally did this with our relationship at one point, and it made it significantly worse.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Over therapizing. ChatGPT will overtherapise your partner and diagnose your situation and it's dangerous. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

It is not a therapeutic tool. It does not allow you to be curious. It doesn't allow people to be humans. It merely tries to take information and validate you and create an answer for you.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

I watched this court case um video the other day where a girl was taking her therapist, so her like actual live human therapist to court and said that she misled her in her relationship and was suing her for it. She said that she strongly influenced her, encouraged her and her boyfriend to break up, like gave them labels, like all the things. And then she she came to the point of like, I believe that we it was wrong, like we shouldn't have broken up, like we could have worked through it. And that she was given advice from her therapist. And like, anyway, what I'm trying to say is Chat GPT can do it. People can also do it too.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

I think it's why you've got to be you have to find a good therapist.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Or, yes, but also I think we look to other people. Often to tell us what to do, especially in relationship decisions, because they're so hard and so painful. And there's multiple narratives going on of like, girl, choose yourself. Like you don't need numbing. You know, and then there's the other narrative.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

And the man can't do anything right. Like everything is one little thing just sets it off into they're a terrible person, like you deserve better. Like it can be very dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

I just think a lot of things can be worked out inside of the relationship. Absolutely. And then I think you do bring in a third-party or mediator therapist if there's like irreconcilable differences or you're really struggling. Yeah. Say um an affair happened or something like that. I think there's very abuse. Maybe you've had like maybe your partner had an angry outburst and got really angry in front of the kids and now you're, you know, PTSD and you're afraid. You know, like there are times, absolutely, that you gotta work through things. But or maybe like sex therapy, maybe you you're struggling with attraction. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah, I do think that there are some really good therapists out there who can help navigate this in a way that isn't going to influence you because I think the point of therapy is to understand your traumas, but then also to move forward and not allow yourself to Don't make them excuses. Yeah. Allow yourself to explore yourself deeper and move forward in life. However, I do think that there's a lot of therapists out there. Unfortunately, I actually just had a therapy session with it, it was like Liven or something like that. And I was like, I'm gonna try that out. And the woman was awful. One, she was trying to sell me her book. Two, she was like, her eyes would get so big when I would tell her something. And she automatically was making assumptions. And I could tell that she was just like, it was she was trying to guide me to a direction that was not it, it was very misleading. I immediately deleted Lybe and I'm no longer going that route. But I think you have to be very cautious. I Bobby and I were talking last week, like be cautious with the provider that you choose. I think it's the same way with therapy. You know, you interview your therapist before. Tell them what you want. Like when I met with this woman, first I told her, like, I like bluntness. Be honest and blunt with me. Um, but also I want you to challenge me. I don't want everything when I come to you, I want you to tell me, well, Amanda, this could be something that you need to look at. Like if you're having this in your relationship, you know, maybe it's something that you're doing instead of just being like, oh, well, it's all him. Right. Yeah. I it wasn't over that. The Liban thing wasn't over that. But it was just for an example.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

I do want to give a shout out to my past therapists. There are many. I've had so many therapists. And I needed, I needed them. Uh, they've really helped me a lot. So I want to give a shout-out to the incredible therapists in my life. Um, there's three in particular that I'm thinking of, three women that live here in this community that I've had incredible therapy experiences with that have helped me understand what I was going through, understand what was happening in my brain, um, given me like compassion and insight when I needed it most. And I really have had some great counsel and guidance. Um, but I do know so many instances as well where that's not been the case.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

So there was one situation where I felt like a therapist diagnosed you with something that I don't think is true. And I think it gave you an answer for all the like the all the reasons why things might be happening, but I don't think it was right the right, like I don't think it was the truth of your experiences. Yeah. So I think you have to be careful if someone even diagnoses you.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Well, therapists always say too, I mean, I know I have a lot of friends that are therapists, they have to give you some diagnosis to build insurance. Uh like depression or it's a requirement. They have to give you something. So, like, I can see the diagnosis that I got, why it is maybe the closest thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

But it can pigeonhole you and be not you. So if someone, I think I gave this example a long time ago, and this is not a clinical diagnosis by any means, but I was told my entire life I was shy. So I operated from that lens of shyness. Yeah. And I think the same can be true with depression or whatever. Like if you're diagnosed with depression, it's like, well, this is just who I am. Yeah. No, this is an experience that you're having in your life, but it isn't your who you are. It is not the reason why you live the way that you live. Yeah. So I think that if you do get a diagnosis, it's important to walk through that journey with somebody, but that isn't who you are.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just I just have like dissociative tendencies, you know, like I dissociate to deal with things. That's a coping mechanism. It's a coping mechanism, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

But it's not who you are. No. But I think being mindful of that is really important. And it's the same when we're talking about over therapizing your relationship. Yeah. Don't give a diagnosis to someone. It pigeonholes them into a character and creates a story and a version of that person that is far more complex.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

Or maybe they maybe a person does have a diagnosis, but that's not all that a person is. Right. A person, okay, so I have depression. Okay, but I also have 500 interesting things about me that are, you know, not sad. So yeah, it's just don't let that be everything. You can't. I could I could be mad at Amanda and I could be like, well, she's this and that's why. But no, like people are so much more than that. They are be curious. Yeah. Be bi curious.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

I'm just kidding, or that we support that. Absolutely. We do. We do. It's it really is about allowing humans to be humans, seeing them from more of a complex lens rather rather than a jaded lens. Yeah. Accepting people for who they are. Yeah. I mean, people just have so many different vast life experiences, which make this world so much more interesting. But don't pigeonhole them into a box. Don't overtherapise them.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Yeah. And next time you want you're you're tempted to do that, I would encourage you to get curious about why is why is my partner being really self-defensive right now? Why are why are they exhibiting this behavior? What wound inside of them is being triggered? What is hurting? If you can get curious about the other person, it feels a lot less personal. I agree. And you can be a lot more loving in relationships. I agree. So yeah, very good. All right. Well, enjoy our new sign.

unknown 50:33

Yay.

SPEAKER_01 50:33

Hopefully you're watching. Hi five. We did it. I did it. Bye, guys. Bye.