Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today's episode encourages you to do just that. So let's dive right in. David, as I'm sure you are well aware, church membership has become a hot topic, especially among young adults who are wanting something more authentic than traditional institutions. They've seen hypocrisy, they've seen scandal, maybe they've been hurt. And some people feel like the church just holds them back, while others question if it's actually necessary at all to follow Jesus. So let's get into it. Is being a part of a local church optional or mandatory to actually follow Jesus faithfully?
SPEAKER_02So biblically, I would say not optional, mandatory. And here's why. So I want to start like this, isn't just like my ideas. So if you look at the word for church in the New Testament, Ecclesia, it's mentioned uh 114 times in the New Testament. Over 90 of those times, it's specifically specifically referring to local gatherings of believers, not like just the church like throughout history or the church around the world right now. It's local gatherings. Like there's a clear emphasis in God's word on local gatherings of believers. And I mean, you even think about like much of the New Testament Testament is written to churches, like local churches, to the church at Corinth. And if you're a follower of Jesus, you would have been identified with one of those churches in such a way that Jesus, even his second mention of the church, first one is in Matthew 16, second time he mentions it, it's actually talking about church discipline. And he says, uh, if somebody continues an unrepentant sin, that uh tell it to the church. And then if they refuse to listen even to the church, then remove them from the church. Like this is a picture of, oh, what does that mean? Tell it to every follower of Jesus in the world? No, that's like an accountability to a local gathering of believers. Same thing as in 1 Corinthians chapter 5. So we could, and and even 1 Corinthians chapter 12, like this picture of being a part or a member of something, uh of a body, and realizing that local bodies of Christ are the emphasis in the New Testament. So all that to say God has designed a local church, a gathering of brothers and sisters who are here's how a define church uh is basically a gathering of brothers and sisters who are committed to being and doing all that God says a church is and does, which is uh listening to the word, teaching the word, praying together, uh doing all that one another is in scripture, helping one another become more and more like Jesus, working together on mission in the world. And that for a follower of Jesus, I I get I really want to be uh yeah, sympathetic to the well hurt people have experienced in church. The good reasons for people to have concern based on some of the experience they've had of church. But if you look at what the Bible says about church, this is an infinitely good thing for followers of Jesus and something we all need. So one route in light of challenges in the church would be to say, okay, discard it altogether. But God is clearly not calling us to do that in his word. So let's work to be an experience church the way God's designed us to experience. Like I my hope is every follower of Jesus would want that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I went to a pretty big public university, and I live in a pretty secular city in Austin, Texas. And I feel like there's this notion, it's not really un, it's not really spoken out there, but it's like, oh, I go to X church, but I don't really think that they belong. Like, is there a difference between belonging and going to a local church?
SPEAKER_02Huge difference. Like, yes. I mean, First Corinthians 12, which I mentioned earlier, like uh being a part, a member of a body, uh, is like like you actually matter here. It's like you don't just come sit, like church in the New Testament is clearly not go sit in the service, leave. Like that's not, I mean, that's like well, you do that in a movie. Like, that's not church. Like this is Wang, you you you're a part of a body where like hand, foot, like we we had we are you're a member of a body, eyes, ears, like where you matter, where you're connected with others, where you're sharing life with others, where you're helping each other grow in Christ, like and and you have spiritual gifts toward this that are for this purpose, like you, Austin, I, David, we have spiritual gifts that are intended to be building up other brothers and sisters in Christ in a local church. That happens when we belong there. Like, and there's other people who have gifts that you need to help build you up. Like that's there's so much here with this imagery of a body, but that that necessitates belonging. So I would I would just say, do not be content with going to church. So seeing church as an event when church is a it's a body, it's a family, it's a household, it's a community that you belong to.
SPEAKER_01For the one though, that is listening and they're maybe feeling convicted by that, and they're like, okay, well, maybe I need to take further steps in belonging, see what it looks like to be a member of my local church body. But they're still a little hesitant that they they think that, man, you know, maybe my church is okay and I haven't seen or heard any scandals, but like just the church in general, isn't it just just too messy to be worth investing in?
SPEAKER_02Well, praise God he doesn't say that about your life, yeah. My life. Wow. Right. Like we, of course, it's messy. Like, I mean, yeah, look in the Bible, look at all these churches. They're there's full of challenges. And uh, but that this is uh yeah, this is who we are. We're people, we're sinful people in a fallen world. Now, there's coming a day, praise God, when we're gonna be together before God in heaven, and no more conflict, no more, and and and not even like local churches, like we're gonna be all together, we have every nation, tribe, and tongue. But that's not today. So today, what but this is the beauty. Churches, God designs to be a local expression of this global heavenly body and on on earth. And so to belong, like we've talked about, and to realize, yeah, there's gonna be challenges. I think about even like commands to bear with one another. Well, if you have a command to bear with people, then that means there's gonna be some hard people that are hard to get along with. Like, don't be surprised. It's challenging. And don't be surprised when yes, be heartbroken by sin, be heartbroken by struggles that you see or things that are not that don't reflect who God is. Like, yes, absolutely, but at the same time, press in to say, how can I help this body to be as healthy as possible? And you just think about it. If everybody's coming to that church with that desire, let's try to be as healthy a body as possible under God and according to his word, like this is gonna be really, really good. And God's gonna use this for our sanctification and use us for other sanctification in the process. Like it's uh bottom line, it's worth it. It's hard, but it's worth it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Unpacking that idea of a healthy body of believers in your local area. Like, how do I know a church is healthy and worth committing to? Like what what signs or indications should I be looking for?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean, so the long answer I would give is like 12 traits of a biblical church, which is a resource we've got on a radical site, uh, along those lines. But those are the things that come to my mind. Like, what does so is there healthy biblical teaching? Like, are is the Bible being taught, or like this pastor's just kind of ideas, opinions, thoughts? If that's the case, then that's that's gonna be a lack of health. Uh, is there is are are people praying together, like really seeking the Lord together? Are they worshiping in a way that brings glory to God and not exalts man? Uh is there true fellowship, like really loving one another, serving one another, caring for one another, uh, experiencing life with one another? Is a church like baptizing people and uh celebrating the Lord's Supper? Is the church sharing the gospel, doing evangelism together? Is the church doing discipleship, helping people to grow more and more in the likeness of Jesus? Is a church cooperating on mission together? Is there like giving that in a church to pool together our resources to make the gospel known in a world of urgent need around us? Like, so these are the kinds of things when we would we want to say, okay, to what extent does a church, and no church is perfect? And you find one and you go to it, then you'll mess the whole thing up because none of us are perfect. That's the point. So no church is healthy in all those areas. So, but I I the kind of core that I would encourage people to look for is a church working toward health according to God's word. And if there's a desire, like biblical leadership, pastors, elders who are trying to shepherd a church to become more like Jesus uh according to God's word. If that is happening in a church, then that's where even in the church I pastor, like there's areas where we've got to grow in hell. We need to grow in health and in a variety of those different ways. But we're working like our pastors, elders, we're praying together along with the members of that body to say, how can we become more and and just more and more healthy? Like to be a part of a body like that is going to be really good for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I want to hone in more so on that. What does it look like to go to a church that has a pastor who preaches the word? Because I believe it's in James that talks about there's gonna be teachers of all kinds with and and they're gonna satisfy the itching ears of the people that are being raised up. And so how do we how do we go and figure out like, is this pastor actually preaching from the word? Like, what's the difference between preaching from the word and then preaching a topic that has a little bit of the word sprinkled in in there?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say there's some there's one sense in which like this would be probably the first and most important trait of a church because everything flows from this. Everything does, is the word supreme primary. So I would say when the word is taught in this particular church, um, is it clear that it is the word that's driving what's being taught, or that it's being used as a prop? Like the the illustration my preaching professor and mentor in my life always used was like a swimming pool. Is the text like a diving board? Somebody like just jumps off the text, off the word and starts swimming around and all their own thoughts and ideas and stories and illustrations and applications. Um, or is the text like pool furniture? It's like swimming around and all the ideas and thoughts, topics, whatever, and then every once in a while making a reference to the word here or there, or is the the text like the pool that they're just swimming in? Like, are they just swimming in the word? Are they saying and showing you this is coming from the word? It's not coming from me, it's coming straight from God with a trust and a fear of the authority of God's word. Like, is that evident in a way that it's clear what has been taught was the point of that passage, was what God was saying in that passage. Um, and there's a real humble submission to the word. Like those are the kinds of things I would look for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, that's really good. Um, what because this is kind of like reflecting on my own life. There was a period of time where I was super zealous of sharing the gospel and going out there, and I felt distrusting somewhat of the church because I looked at kind of what I was experiencing. I was like, well, I don't feel like they're doing enough, so I'm just gonna go out here and do it my on my own. Like how but then thankfully the Lord has like convicted me that that's not how it works. But like, why is that not how it works?
SPEAKER_02I it's not how it works because God has not designed us to do anything on our own. Except, I mean, maybe one exception I would put is just like there needs to be time where we're like alone in the room with him, close the door, nobody else, just us seeking him. But the Christian life is never intended to be lived on our own. And so I just think about okay, zealous Austin wanting to go out and share the gospel, the value of zealous Austin, finding a church body where there are uh older brothers in Christ, where there are pastors, elders with their Austin can say, I'm zealous about sharing the gospel. I'm gonna go out and do this. Help me see any ways that are not healthy in how I'm doing this or not good about how I'm going about this. And uh, and and in submission to a church in a good way that says, uh, I just want to learn to grow in Christ. I want to make sure everything I'm doing is most glorifying Christ. I trust that you are shepherding a church or leading and can help me become more like Jesus. So help me to do that. And then you still do what you're doing, but you're doing it as a part of, belonging to a local church, learning from uh local church leaders. And in the process, you will start to influence other people in that church in positive ways. Like, and maybe, so yeah, even to use as an example, maybe a particular church doesn't have a lot of evangelistic zeal. Well, praise God, you're in that God's brought you to that church. Not to like you're like the savior of that church is going to transform and this, but yeah, God's gonna use you to build up this church, to trust that with a but to go in that, uh, it's really important to go into that with a humble posture, not like I'm here to change this church, but I'm here to be a part of this body, and I want to use my gifts uh in ways that glorify God in this body and build up this church to become more like Jesus. Um, but I want to do that in love for, as a servant of, a humble posture in the church. Like, man, as a pastor, I love that picture of all kinds of brothers and sisters coming to the church with all those different gifts that are needed for the building of the body and us doing it together with humility. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's so powerful about Christ as the head, yeah, we as the body. Uh, and it's not about us, like it's it's about him elevating and magnifying Christ as the most important.
SPEAKER_02And which I if I could just like uh hone in there for a minute, like that's Ephesians 3.10. So that through the church, the manifold wisdom of God would be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. Like the whole picture is God glorifies himself, yes, through Austin, through David, like through our lives individually. We want everything we do to glorify him, but he glorifies himself maximally through the church, through the body of Christ. So this, I mean, Ephesians 3.10 is basically saying like God holds up a church and all these diverse giftings and people from different backgrounds who are all uniting together around the blood of Jesus, Ephesians chapter 2, like reconciled to each other and are all saved by his grace. None of them there because they're like great people, but just because they're saved by grace and as their gifts, they're working together and spreading the glory of God in the world. Ephesians 3 10 says God holds up the church as a demonstration to the spiritual forces in the heavenly realms, like that he is glorious. It's evident through the church.
SPEAKER_01That's so good. For the person who is listening, who's been following Jesus on their own, they've thought I can do this by myself. Maybe I've been hurt, maybe I feel like I've seen scandal, maybe I've been a part of something that you know there was a scandal in my church. And so they've become distrusted. Like, but they're now realizing through this conversation that they need church now more than ever. What would you say say to them today?
SPEAKER_02I I would say I one, I don't want to like gloss over the hurt they may have experienced or the challenges they've experienced. So like I would encourage, like, take those before the Lord, like and just God, I need I need healing, I need your help. And as I process through this, like, so don't don't gloss over that. But then I would say, but be so actively find uh as healthy a church around you as you can. Uh again, not no perfect church, but a church that is eagerly desiring to be the church according to God's word. And then in the context of that, maybe even with pastors or elders or other brothers and sisters in that church, to say, like, hey, here's my here have been my struggles in the past and my the ways I've been hurt. Can you pray for and just go ahead and dive in? Like bring those hurts even to that picture to say, I need healing, and uh, I need brothers and sisters around me who can pray for healing in that. And I want to experience what God desires for me in the church, and then to to put yourself out there to belong to that church in that way. You you will not regret uh even when it's hard and there might even be hurt along the way, you will not regret loving and pursuing the body of Christ, like the bride of Christ. It's Jesus died for the church. So it uh it's more than worth it for you to live for the church.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much for joining us today on Everyday Radical. We pray that this conversation stirred your heart and strengthened your faith. There's so much more ahead, so go back and catch any episodes you might have missed and subscribe so you don't miss what's ahead. Let's keep making Jesus known everywhere. Until next time.