Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today's episode encourages you to do just that. So let's dive right in.
SPEAKER_0175% of Christian men in the church and 40% of women in the church struggle with pornography in a regular way. And one in five pastors uh say they watch pornography in a regular way. Wow. So yeah, and then the average age of exposure to pornography is age eight. That's wow. Uh yeah, that's part of my own story. I grew up in a Christian home with parents who love the Lord, and I got exposed when I was eight years old. Eight years old. Yeah. So very, very young. And if of course, you know, sinful choice to jump into it. But uh yeah, that I was just curious. And it's just literally stumbling across it that led into nearly a decade-long addiction to pornography. So that is the story of so many other guys I know, and now increasingly women and girls in the church. So that's why we we gotta talk to girls as well as guys. Yes.
SPEAKER_00You can't just leave them out. I mean, they are what there's more women in the world than there are men, right? I think that's statistically or something. But it's like that's something for me as well. I can relate to you on that, John Michael. Like that was something I grew up with the first iPhone, basically. That was in middle school. Yep. And somet yes, sometimes it's a willful, sinful decision to go into it. And then sometimes nowadays, especially with TikTok and Instagram and feeds that you don't follow these, you could swipe up, yeah, and just it's right there. I mean, I'm just thinking of like a kid I saw in the airport the other day on their iPad, just like brain rot, just doom scrolling. Yeah. And I'm just like, what if something just pops up on their feed?
SPEAKER_01Well, if you mistype certain kid shows, it will take you to a porn site. And that's just because the industry is trying to. I mean, it's like DeWalt. DeWalt makes tools, they make kids versions that they sell at like Toys R Us, because they know if you get a kid sold from a young age, they're more likely to buy when they're older. So they're applying those same marketing principles except to the most destructive, sinful, addicting thing uh yeah, of our age group.
SPEAKER_03So, like I'd love to hear more of your story. Yeah. So yeah, so A to 18, 10 years of addiction. And but in a Christian family and in the church, when when would you say you came to faith in Jesus and how did all that fit together in your story?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I grew up in Niagara, Canada in an amazing community with yeah, people were talking about the gospel. I was hearing that from a young age. My parents are amazing believers, uh, but they just didn't know that they needed to talk to me at that young of an age. So, I mean, most of my friends didn't even have their parents talk to them ever. But my parents did, they just talked like five years too late. So, yeah, from uh eight years old, got exposed. And then as I got older and I got more technology, I also grew up kind of with the iPhone just coming out. Uh, then that addiction got worse and worse. And uh yeah, just got good at living the double lifestyle, involved a church. I was literally leading the youth group and in theological discussions, reading good Christian books, and then at the same time feeding and fostering um, yeah, this addiction to pornography. Um and that was showing up in other areas of my life where I'd fight with my family, uh, just be yes, very selfish. Pornography trains you to be selfish, and then it teaches you that you can live one way over here and then another publicly. So yeah, just for almost a decade, I was more discipled by pornography than anything else.
SPEAKER_03Um But yeah, during all that time, you would say you were a follower of Jesus, yeah. And uh and yet with a real persistent struggle with hidden sin. Yeah, secret sin.
SPEAKER_01I've wrestled with like, oh, when did I when did I exactly come to know the Lord? And there was like seasons of wrestling and fighting against the sin, but the key thing is I never told anyone. So for over, yeah, it was it was a it's just under a decade, uh I was in all those things, but I never let anyone into that area of my life. Yeah. Um, so I'd be confessing to the Lord, I was bringing it into the light in that sense, but I was not bringing it into the light of community, into the church. I wasn't confessing my sin to others uh and getting that accountability. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it w when I was 18 to kind of go into where the the hope begins, um I remember a dear friend of mine sitting down with me and one other one other friend, we're in my parents' garage, and they're talking about a purity conference that they had been to and just how the Lord was working in their hearts and they were confessing sin. And I remember the conviction, the spirit thinking, Man, if you don't open up right now, if you don't confess your sin, uh you never will, and you're gonna remain a hypocrite living this double lifestyle for the rest of your life. So that was a very distinct kind of moment. And so, yeah, by God's grace, that was the first time I shared it with anyone. I told those friends, and instead of um, you know, getting pushed away, I thought I was the only one. They were like, hey, that's us too. And so that gave me more confidence to then go confess to some other people. And the two things that really helped me were good community, so the community in the church, and then some good resources. And with those two helps over the period of two years, some accountability, uh, I was able to put that sin to death and start to walk in holiness. And yeah, I mean, just come on to be able to wake up with a clean conscience, yeah, is so I mean, it's amazing.
SPEAKER_03And you would say, yes, I mean, that two-year process of uh, I mean, uh I don't know the best way to put it like a detox, but yes, a cleansing. Yeah, by God's grace, yeah, there's freedom. Like that's where I really want people to hear it. Like it's possible to be free.
unknownOh man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You, I mean, my own story, but I know so many other guys too and girls that uh through that step of the first bringing it into the light, stop stopping let pornography be in the dark, kind of feeding, fostering, but just stepping out, bringing it into the light, that yeah, it's it can truly die. You really can be free from it. Yes.
SPEAKER_03Now you said into the light multiple times now. I want to make sure to jump in really earlier than later in this conversation to why you do what you do with into the light, and tell I want everybody who's listening to this, yeah, to know about the resources and what you guys are doing to help so many different people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So I mean, Into the Light Ministries is uh a thing that me and a good friend Jacob Volk started together because of this problem that just about everybody we knew was struggling. And there are there's good books out there, but so many people we know don't, you know, won't pick those up. So we thought let's partner with the authors and speakers who have written these great books, you know, with whether it's Garrett Kell or Hamel or whoever, and let's let's put them together into a film that people can just sit down and watch an hour and a half long and walk through that change process from bondage in sin all the way over to freedom in Christ. What does that look like? And they'll just kind of give them some other resources so they they they can get help and ask someone to come alongside them. So yeah, as a as a ministry, we're just trying to make tools that inspire and equip people to do that in the local church. Yeah. Um, whether you're not struggling to come alongside others or you are struggling uh to get help. Yeah. So it's all free.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I love the way you, I mean, you described in your own life. It was community and resources. Yeah. And that's what you guys are doing. You're trying to create resources that serve churches, like such that. I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, but somebody listening to this, if they're just like, oh, I'll get the resources, but I'm still gonna keep it and figure this out on my own, it's not gonna work. You've got to have both community and and resources. Obviously, the gospel at the center of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think the devil's main tactic is to keep sin murky. And you know, all the biblical language, you know, why we called our ministry into the light, and I keep using that, it's just the biblical idea of you know, Jesus saying, I am the light of the world. Yeah, you know, he comes after me, will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life. Or um, you know, Galatians 6, 1 and 2, that uh if anyone's caught in a transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness and be careful lest you two be tempted. So there's this idea of the light of Christ, we confess our sin, but the way that shows up and the way we find freedom and help is by confessing to others, other Christians. So the solo Christian is not a biblical category. Uh, if you want to get help, you've got to do it in the church and good community.
SPEAKER_00That's so good. I mean, I think I think it's in James where it's like the you confess your sins to another, and the the prayer of a righteous person is powerful, effective. And I just think of my time coming to so I I've mentioned this before on the podcast, but I I grew up in the church and I really didn't start caring about my faith until college. But even in college, I was still addicted to pornography. And it wasn't until I had people around me in accountability helping me get free from that that I really understood the weight of hidden sin, like dark sin. And so I guess my big question to you is kind of what are what are some of the lies that those people who are still stuck in that sin are believing? Maybe it's about the brokenness and their sexuality. Yeah, could you dive into that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, a few things combined. One would be the I think the most common one is I can do this on my own. You know, I I'm gonna stop this time. This is the last time. And um, yeah, I think the devil uses that in the biblical category would be self-reliance, you know, to that's trusting in your own strength and not leaning on the Lord. Yeah. And you're leaning on your own understanding, not on Christ. And so line number one would definitely be I can do this on my own if I just try harder this time. Uh and I think another one would be uh I can't change. You know, we've already talked about this a little bit, yeah, that this is so defined who I am that uh that there's no hope for me. And uh, I mean, those people that for the people in that situation, if you're listening right now and that's you, I mean, I want to actually just invite you to the gospel because the gospel is for people who think they are too far gone and no one is, and this is not a sin that uh disqualifies you from being able to come to come to Jesus. Um I think a third lie, I mean there's probably lots, but these are probably the top three in my mind, is that we can have a bit of freedom, but that uh you know, I don't know if I need to get totally free. Like everybody struggles with this. So is it really a big deal? Yeah. I remember a good friend of mine, his younger sister was going out with a guy, and so he has a good older brother, goes, checks him out on Instagram just trying to get to know who this is and um sees the kind of pages this guy's following as very provocative, basically porn sites. And so he goes to his sister and says, like, hey, this is not a guy you should be going out with, like, this is not a godly man. And she said, All the guys in my class are watching pornography who really cares. And that's in a Christian school. So it yeah, it I think there's a a deeply kind of belief, like, this is just so prevalent, it's not that big a deal. Uh I'm not gonna be able to find a husband, or I can't find a wife that's not strong with this anyway, so it's okay. And I would just say to you that that's um yeah, that's playing with serious, serious sin that uh Paul says will kill you. Yeah, he those sorts of things describe those who are not regenerate yet. So don't live in your sin and bring in, bring it out.
SPEAKER_03Man, as you're sharing those lies, I'm just thinking about the field day that the devil, the deceiver of the whole world, just the evil, sinful delight he must feel like just getting people to think, yeah, this is just the way we are. I'm stuck this way, everybody else is this way, it just is what it is, like all of that. And I know, I know there's people, many who will listen to this, are listening to this right now, who are who are Christians who like know the gospel, but who have maybe, yeah. I mean, would you say like are uh struggling to believe the power of the gospel right now because they're believing that lie? And so it really isn't coming back to no, no, no, no. This is you are a new creation, like you have a Holy Spirit inside of you that has power over sin, and you can be free. This the power of the gospel transit you from this, and and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if I could jump off of kind of what you just said, and on top of what you say, I think another lie that we believe is that, and this is not a lie that I don't think anyone would say out loud, but with porn comes pleasure, like that's why people do it. I think in our selfish, fleshly I would use the word stupid brains, we think that the devil actually wants this wants us to have pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We think in porn that the devil wants us to enjoy this. The devil doesn't want us to enjoy anything, he just wants us to become more and more and more separated from God. So I think that's something that I believe that, oh, I enjoy this. So it's like it's okay, but the devil doesn't want you to enjoy it. Like I hope that brings some sort of freedom to somebody hearing this right now. The devil doesn't care about you enjoying this pleasure. He just enjoys he get he gets pleasure from the fact that it's drawing you away from God. Uh, I just know from like this this feeling that you get when you're when you're bogged down by this these lustful desires, it's like you have to question yourself. It's like, do I actually want this right now? Like these thoughts that happen to me, maybe I'm in public. Like, is that really me, or is this something that's mastering me? Like, I think the devil loves to trick us into believing that we're free willing choice choosing these things for ourselves when in fact our flesh is trapping us into this detriment of the devil trying to take us away from God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um well, I think that's like what you're saying. Sin, I think really all sin is uh right things but in the wrong time and in the wrong way. Like the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve taking uh what in the wrong time and in the wrong way. I think pornography, it's taking uh pleasure, it's taking uh intimacy and inserting it in immediacy with no uh relationship, with no accountability. Uh and intimacy and pleasure are actually a good thing. Yeah, like the way you're saying, yeah, God designed God made marriage, He He made the orgasm, like He's He's made all these things to be enjoyed as First Timothy 6 says, but with Thanksgiving and prayer, they're to be enjoyed in the right way and in the right context, which is marriage, a covenant union of one man, one woman. So I like the devil's actually anti-pleasure. Yeah, exactly. Like he's he's selling you something that tastes good at first, like candy, but then gives you a sore stomach. It's it's bad for you in the long term.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. That uh it's so interesting that you mentioned First Timothy. Well, one, I was thinking as you were sharing Austin, uh, I mean, it is Romans 6 and 7, like uh you are we're slaves to sin. It's not that we're free, uh living out freedom by indulging in whatever in this world, including pornography. It's oh we're slaves, yeah. But Jesus came to set us free, to set us free to not be mastered by anything but our creator who loves us. Uh, but then you mentioned you just mentioned First Timothy, and it's so interesting you said that because I was I was thinking about it, and you you mentioned it because we were having a conversation about that same uh well, the passage in First Timothy chapter four, uh talking about the the marriage bed, but then uh we were talking about it with somebody else on the podcast about exercise. It's it's all the good gifts from God that can be twisted and perverted by the adversary to become deadly for us, but they're good gifts when they are received with thanksgiving, made holy by the word of God and prayer. And so, and it really does come back to also, right? Uh being conquered by a superior desire. We come back to this over and over and over again. Half-hearted creatures fooling about with drink and sex and ambition and porn, because we cannot imagine what's meant by this offer of a holiday at the sea. Like we're far too easily pleased. So, so there really is. I mean, where so how does that play into it? John Michael, just like intimacy with God, walking with God, uh in his word, and finding superior delight in God as a way to fight uh these desires for this world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh man, I mean, I think this is kind of the core of you want to you want to find freedom, you want to change, you need new affections. How do you do that? So there's there's an initial put-off that has to happen. So, you know, wisely cutting off access, there's all sorts of great tools that you can use to do that. But I mean, that's really just putting a fence. You can be just as addicted to pornography, even if you're not watching it, inside a fence. It's like the alcoholic coming out of the program and then immediately going back to the bar. Uh, and you're you didn't really change, even if you haven't drunk in several months. Right. So my fear sometimes with accountability is that we aren't we're focusing a lot on the put off and not a little on the put on. And what you're saying is you need a new affection. And I think another biblical category on this is the fear of the Lord. Yeah. The more our understanding of the presence of God grows, I mean, I just know this in my own life, the more I'm living, remembering like the Lord is with me right now. If I remember that, the desire and the temptation for pornography hugely decreases because I've got the spirit of God in me. I do, I want to please the Lord, but so often I think God is so small because our relationship with him is so small and our view and our understanding of him is so small that it feels like a little thing to offend or to the word. And so I mean, my just practical encouragement to a listener would be be in the Bible, you know, know it, love it yourself, read good Christian books, and try to grow in the fear of the Lord. Um, you know, Michael Reeves has this great book, Rejoice and Tremble. That was so helpful for me. That's a good kind of like short one for people if you're listening. That's good. Rejoice and Tremble by Michael Reeves. Great book.
SPEAKER_03That's good. I I love, I mean, so I I love what you're saying. What I'm hearing you say is like uh there are super practical things you need to do to yeah, put the fence around, have accountability, and like know God and uh dive into good, whether it's yeah, whatever resources that are gonna give you a higher view of God, yeah, and intimacy with God or what this looks like. It's a it really is a both end. I'm curious to know. Oh, there's a a variety of things that are coming to my mind. Uh well, I'll I'll ask this one first. Um in uh your journey of like that two-year process, anything else that was particularly helpful along the way that we're not we have we've not hit on yet? Uh and may maybe not, but I just I want to make sure like that journey that was people in the body of Christ walking alongside you. What what were the things that were happening during that two years that brought you that freedom?
SPEAKER_01A couple would be uh an angle of accountability. I think sometimes when they hear that, they either hear like a bunch of friends who all struggle that get together and it's like ah hey, I failed too. And that's that's a form of accountability that's not very effective. Sometimes people also think of accountability that's like me plus an older guy, and that's good. Something that was really helpful for me was just friendship with other brothers and being honest with this. Some of my closest friends today are still the guys, even though I've moved away from that town where I grew up in, that I was fighting this sin with. And just it's a way to go deep into community. So I'd say, like, get ask an older brother who's not struggling, an older sister if your sister who's not struggling, to go through a resource. Whether it's uh Pure in Heart by Derek Hell or Into the Light documentary, just grab something, go through it with an older person in your church for one on one discipling. But then also don't be afraid to share it with your friends because those were the guys that when on the middle of the day I was feeling tempted, I would call them up uh because they're the dudes that were all praying for each other. On you know, our our friendships not just about sports, not just about music, it's also about fighting sin together. So that was a huge part of my story that was helpful.
SPEAKER_03Just having deep friendships with Christian brothers or sisters where you're yes, fighting sin together.
SPEAKER_01And praying together.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a huge one. If you start praying together, like I've talked to so many dudes that I said, have you ever actually asked God about this in prayer? And it sounds kind of crazy, but they actually never pray about it. Which I think comes back to the the big or small view of God in your life. If you're not on your knees in prayer, like that should be step number one. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You talked about fear of God. Uh I'd love to hear your thoughts on uh yeah, spiritual conviction that leads and in God's grace that leads to repentance, and just the feelings of shame that come with pornography and how to process that like shame. Is that coming from God? Is that coming from the average? Like, how do I how do how does somebody process the shame, the feelings of guilt that accompany addiction or pornography?
SPEAKER_01That's a good question. I think guilt is uh a understanding that I've done something wrong before God or before the state or whatever, and shame is identifying with that guilt. You know, to distinguish those saying this is who I am. And I think guilt can actually be a gift from God. That that actually that may be the conviction of the spirit, yeah. Try to say, wake up, like this is sin, this is killing you, wake up. And I think shame is sometimes our wrong identifying with uh, you know, right guilt over sin and saying, Well, now that's that's what defines me. That is who I am. And uh that doesn't have to be true, as we've as we talked about. So I think shame is a super common tactic of the enemy to keep you quiet or to keep you identifying with your sin. Um, but I think the some of the the guilt piece can be really a gift from the Lord Um that that can lead you to repentance.
SPEAKER_03I just think as as you're talking, I'm thinking this is where you really, we really all need in every battle with sin, including this, uh just truth, like God's word, so that we can distinguish what's coming from the Lord and what's coming, what's not coming from him. Like, uh, yes, this is wrong. This is not good for you. Okay, that's coming from the Lord. Uh, I need that in my life, but beat you down, you are this, the accuser that just is uh yeah, just uh pummeling you in shame. Like clearly that's not from the Lord. So so to have God's word and really to even memorize as we've talked about many times on this podcast, just making sure to hide God's word in our heart, just truths that would help us navigating the attacks of the enemy in this way.
SPEAKER_00Right. I kind of want to take it another direction on, and I'm not I'm not sure if the documentary addresses this. But I would love to hear your thoughts on just the trafficking involved in the porn industry, the sexual exploitation. Could you talk a little bit about that? If you have any stats on it, stories about it. Yeah. Uh just because I I think that's something that, you know, let's just take in an ignorant person who doesn't know anything about this, who's struggling with porn, they they, you know, they're wrestling with God, I know you don't want this. What can can this be like an added level of like, hey man, like this is this is pure evil. Yeah. Could you talk on that a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. So the number one thing that drives sex trafficking is pornography. Uh, because I mean, if you just think about it plainly, a lot of pornography that's created is uh based on people who have been trafficked. Wow. So I mean, let that be motivation to those who are struggling to not participate in that. Yeah. Um, but even yeah, the the demand of viewing creates demand for more trafficking. Um, there's a clear relationship between um pornography, sex trafficking, sexual abuse, uh, divorce rates, like on a lot of fronts, pornography is the feeder for the tremendous amount of other sin. Um, and if you think about this the worst forms of pornography, of child pornography, um where do you people who are uh you know pedophiles, where does that come out of that doesn't come out of nowhere. That's someone who's been trained on pornography for years and years and years. And what pornography really does is it's it's not even actually exactly pleasure. Technically, pornography is training you to shock, addicting you to shock. Wow. So that's why some people will say, Oh, it I'm not gonna go any deeper or any worse. Uh, but what's actually happening is you're being addicted to the shock of something new. So pornography will always lead you in further into worse and worse and worse things. Um, so again, that's just another motivation. Like, flee that sim today, get out of there now, um, because it will deceive you into places that you thought you could never go. And sadly, so many people do. Like, yeah, I can think of several stories of even you know, people who are involved in seminaries and who are uh they're training pastors, and secret addiction leads them to the worst places of pornography. Man, man. We talked about this a little bit in um the Tech Safe series, if anyone wants to check it out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, along those lines, I was just gonna ask. Like, what are the what are some of the resources that I want to make sure people know are out there that you guys are producing? You've talked about the documentary that just kind of helps people see the journey from bondage to freedom. What else?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So, yeah, the documentary that we made called Into the Light walks through that process of change. It's also in seven episodes. You're in the last episode talking about missions and pornography. And basically it's a discipling tool. So we got a workbook with it. Uh, then there's something kind of going upstream. How do we prevent this from happening for our kids for the community in the church? How do we talk to our children before it's a problem? So that that's a video series, nine episodes long called Parenting and Pornography: Roadmaps to Raising Children of Integrity. Um, yeah, because the idea there is that we can aim to protect our kids, but that's far too low a goal, actually. They will be exposed, whether it's at eight or eighteen. The question is, have you prepared them in that window to be sent out of the home and and walk with integrity when they get an opportunity?
SPEAKER_03Um that's a nine-week series intended to equip parents.
SPEAKER_01Parents and you know, church leaders could give that to their parents or prospective parents. So good. Yeah. Um, and then uh we have another one called Tech Safe, which as just saying, basically has short tutorials on how do you protect your devices because there is the put-off part. You need to cut off access. How do you do that? Uh, we worked with Coven and Eyes to just get really practical on how to. Yeah, that's great. Um, and then we do yeah, we have a podcast called Intellight that I interviewed you on, and I've interviewed Garrett Kell and a variety of other people on just to go long form fight tools to fight sexual safety. Yeah, so good.
SPEAKER_03What man, can you uh I know this isn't uh like okay, there's a nine-week series on parenting and pornography, for example. Like, what are a couple of nuggets from there? Just give us like a couple of crumbs that will lead us there to get more. So I know there's no way you can capture nine weeks, but what are some big things that be particularly helpful just as kind of teasers?
SPEAKER_01I mean, so I mean I learned so much as we went through the production of that. I've got three little boys, and one of the biggest ones was that you cannot just have one conversation. It starts when they're super young and it continues on as they get older. And um, yeah, studies show that parents that are the first ones to introduce a topic, their kids will see them as an authority on it and be more likely to come with questions. So I think I I kind of thought, oh, if I talk too soon, I might introduce things to my boys that they haven't thought of. I felt that, yes. And in reality, uh, if you're the first one to talk, you get to be the one to set the table and do it in an appropriate way. Um so even now, like my oldest son is three years old and in super general categories. Sometimes, you know, if he's been on one of our phones, I'll just be like, hey, hey, buddy, if if you ever see something that makes you feel uncomfortable or bad pictures or videos, you can always come talk to mommy and daddy. And you know, we're not gonna be mad at you. We're actually gonna be really happy you told us. We'll be so glad. So it just it's and then I'll get more detailed as it gets older, but it's laying the categories for him. Good. It's good. And then thinking wisely about technology, kind of the last few episodes. We want to not be Luddites, we don't want to be totally wide open. We want to progressively, as they grow, give them responsibility so they can handle it when they're 20 and off on their own. Yeah, there's just a couple nuggets.
SPEAKER_03Man, that it's a battle. Like I feel like I'm the uh I mean with our six kids, I feel like I'm the I don't know, I've I've got to be the tech specialist on so many different and all these different platforms trying to understand what's good, what's helpful, what's what's most dangerous, how to create uh those safeguards, but there's ways around those. So uh and I say that I I love my kids. It's not that they're always looking for ways around, but kind of like you were saying earlier, Austin, they don't have to be looking for it.
SPEAKER_00It's coming at them, and so you're trying to figure out how to uh keep it from coming at them, and especially as technology advances the way it has like the first iPhone coming out when we were kids, and now there's VR, yeah, like just the fact that it's it's progressing so rapidly that yes, like we need those safeguards to put into place, but also we need the parents to step up because I mean, for my story, it's like I just remember a single conversation that my dad had about it with me, and it was just like so awkward. There was such an awkward tension of like, oh you know, don't do it. Yeah, and then that was it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that is not good enough for a fatherly figure to come into someone's life. And like you're saying, I love the fact that you said speak about it early on so that they look to you as the authority, not out of a no, you can't do this. So the kid rebels and says, Well, I'm gonna do what I want to do. No, like if you come with a gentle love, like that's something that I'm gonna take, uh, Lord willing, when I have kids one day to speak on early on so they don't fall into the same trap that I did.
SPEAKER_01And I have a lot of sympathy for parent, like my parents' generation because I mean the iPhone was coming out, like this was totally a new world. Yeah, so different. And so I think we know that we know better now. And so, yeah, parents actually have to step up and not yeah, not be passive because you love your kids. Yeah. And so you if you love your children, you're willing to do hard things for them and to go into dark places so that they don't have to. And that's what it means to love your your children, yeah, to bear the burden.
SPEAKER_03Well, and and at the same time, so I'm thinking uh well, two directions. One for uh anybody, teenager, even college student, young dog, like listen to this. If your parent is a follower of Jesus who can be helpful for you in this, then go to that parent. Yeah, look to that parent, ask for help. Um if you don't maybe your parents are not followers of Jesus or may not be uh someone you would look to for help, like find an I you've mentioned it multiple times. I just want to kind of double-click on it. Like, find an older brother or sister in Christ who can help you with that. Um, but then the other direction my mind goes is well, it's not particularly it's obviously unhelpful if the parent or the older adults are also addicted to pornography. So um this is where, man, I I just I think about that in my own life as a parent. Like my I want to protect my kids from sin, and my fight against sin in my own life and temptation in my own life is part of fighting for their like they need a dad who's looks like Jesus, who's being a form of the image of Jesus, who can help them as they're becoming more like Jesus. So uh yeah, this is yeah, but I I mean I'm sure the stats, do you do know the stats different are the age-wise?
SPEAKER_01I mean, you talked about the number of men who are tempted for women, uh, does it vary or is it it does vary, like it's it's more I don't remember the exact statistic, but it it's a lot more intense in the 18 to 25 year old range and it tapers off. But I mean, yeah, I've in the last couple of months had multiple conversations with people in their 60s. Yeah, where this yeah, this is still in their lives, get brought into their marriages, or uh talking to young people where they said, Hey, I I don't know what it even looks like to walk in freedom because my dad struggled and my grandfather struggled, and my great grandfather did. And this is something that's been in our family for generations. Um, so it's I think what you're saying is so true that like as a parent, you're an ambassador. You think about that like an ambassador represents a government or king to another people. I mean, that's what God's designed parents to be. You're an ambassador to your kids of the character of God. And so we as a dad, I want to represent the father to my my boys. I'm gonna do that imperfectly, yes, but uh, you know, Lord help me that I will do that well and to give them a small picture of what the love of God's like.
SPEAKER_00Yes that's so good. John Michael, I mean, this has been really insightful for me personally. I'm just thinking of these are resources that I can look into and take and also build into my parenting one day. And um, what what would be your final encouragement to somebody who, going back to kind of what we talked about at the beginning, who feels stuck in this sin? Maybe they've experienced short-term freedom from this, but they don't feel like long-term freedom, lasting freedom is available to them. What would your encouragement to them be?
SPEAKER_01I think uh my go-to thing would be to commit right now to telling someone. It's just uh we've said it over and over and over, but you will not be able to change if you don't let others in. Um and I and I think that also looks like sometimes you can you may have been stuck in oh Lord forgive me, Lord forgive me, uh kind of prayer cycle. I think just stopping and remembering that if you're in Christ, you you are forgiven. And I think we can actually in a subtle way be rejecting the gospel in feeling that we need to f uh feel worse and worse about our sin before we can go to Christ. And just Jesus is a friend of sinners. I mean, his his heart doesn't, he's not standing over saying, hey, clean it up, then let's talk. You know, he's there sympathizing with our weakness and saying, Come to me. That's good. And so, you know, don't be foolish, you know, don't don't reject the wisdom of community. So bring it into light there, but also, you know, actually go to Jesus and embrace the gospel that is totally free and stop trying to work for it.
SPEAKER_03Can I ask a quick follow-up to that? The person they go to, what would you say to them? So the person that's uh you because I I can think of yeah, many instances where maybe somebody's like takes a bold step, shares that with someone, and either the response is unhelpful or that person like listens, responds maybe helpfully for a week or two or a month or two, but then that it kind of just goes to the wayside and yeah, and then that person is still on their own. They would they took a bold step and shared that. Yeah, then they'd they're feeling alone. Now it feels like they're should they bring it up again? Like anyway, so what would you say to the person who somebody comes to and shares that with?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, I think this is sadly there's more people struggling than there are willing and able to help, it seems like. So you do have to be prepared to maybe get a bad reaction. But I'd say the first thing is just think of the most godly person you know in your life or your church. So if that's your parent, great. Um, you know, if that's an elder in your church or just someone you know, identify that person in your mind right now and then commit to going to them on Sunday or texting them or calling them and go and and asking for help. But one thing you can do to love them is to set clear expectations. So maybe come with a resource. Again, whether that's a book or whether that's the end of the light workbook, just come with something to them and say, Hey, would you go through this with me for seven weeks? Yeah. Because it it makes that an easier thing for them to say yes to. And then remember that this is ultimately still your sin and you are responsible to fight it first and foremost. So just because you've sought out help, great first step. That doesn't mean you can pull the gas off and now they have ownership to push the gas. That's good. You need to push the gas even on the accountability and ask them and maybe even teach them what it means to be a good accountability. Like, can you please call me once a week? Or if you get my covering lines report and you see something, please call me. Like, I need that help.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So and if if for some reason that person is not being helpful to you in that, then I love the way you just put that. Then keep going. Like, don't pull the gas off and like, because I can see somebody saying, I tried, yeah, but I'm I'm back in it. And this person didn't help me. And almost like like you've just like shifted the blame. If they'd have been more helpful, then I wouldn't be back in it. But and in one sense, yes, but it's still you're you're choosing to do this, so keep keep find somebody else. That's right. And uh keep acting, like keep finding. This is a battle.
SPEAKER_01Keep asking people until until if you haven't gotten someone, then you may maybe you need to go to another church then.
SPEAKER_03But like just giving find a godly brother, word-filled, grace-filled, walk alongside you. That's right. We're gonna you're gonna, we're gonna I want you to experience freedom in this, and I'm gonna walk with you toward that end. So we get yeah, yeah. Man, John Michael, would you mind praying us out? Yeah, just pray. Like, specially just think of all the different people. Well, I mean, what was the stat you shared at the beginning? 75% of men and 40% of women. 40% of women. Like that's most of the people who are listening to this, so you're not alone, have some level of struggle. You're uh what was it, regular struggle? I think was the phrase. So yeah, we just pray over them and yeah, over all of us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01All right, let's pray. Oh Lord, we we know uh this sin grieves us. Um, we can only imagine how much more it grieves you. Yeah. Um, and yeah, that we have turned away from you to things that are so much yeah, so much lesser that are actually enslaving us. Yes. Lord, we pray for the people listening to this, many who are struggling. Oh Father, we pray that they would uh in kind of a Proverbs 9 way, not reject the wisdom of counselors of your word, that they would not be fools, uh, but that they would walk in the path of wisdom and heed the call of wisdom to come after her and to yeah, invite others into their into their sin, into their life and bring it into the light. And Lord, we know that you you will give freedom to those who are in Christ. Uh, sin has no power anymore. So, Lord, we pray boldly that you would free many, even just from listening to this podcast, that you would equip others to to walk themselves in holiness and to even then go help others with that, to not hold the freedom themselves, but to actually give it to others. Uh and Lord, we pray that you would uh destroy the work of the evil one here.
SPEAKER_00We pray this all in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for watching this episode of Everyday Radical. We pray that it encouraged you to follow Jesus more faithfully and make him known everywhere. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button, and we'll see you in the next one.