Everyday Radical
What does it actually look like to make disciples of all nations? Everyday Radical explores what happens when ordinary people embrace an extraordinary calling: to make Jesus known everywhere.
Each episode brings you honest conversations with David Platt, Austin Huang, and other believers around the world—some in positions of leadership, others on the margins—who are living out the gospel with courage, clarity, and compassion. We go beyond theory to explore the practical, everyday realities of following Jesus and helping others do the same—wherever He leads.
Everyday Radical
How Every Christian Should Think About Money with Bill & Dana Wichterman
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In this episode of Everyday Radical, David Platt, Austin Huang, and guests Bill and Dana Wichterman discuss biblical stewardship, generosity, and aligning our finances with our faith.
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Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today's episode encourages you to do just that. So let's dive right in. Many Christians want to honor God with their money, but few of us actually face the truth about how we spend, save, and give. Budgets can look perfect on paper, but they often hide the reality of our habits, our priorities, even our fears. Jesus repeatedly warns about the dangers of mismanaging our money, yet tracking every expense can feel tedious or overwhelming. So what would it mean to stop hiding behind these aspirational budgets and start living in financial reality as a form of discipleship? And how could that honesty actually lead to greater joy, freedom, and generosity in following the Lord?
SPEAKER_02So good. Uh with so, with that stage set, I want to go ahead and from the very beginning, not just introduce you to Bill and Dana, but talk about this book, Stewards Not Owners, the joy of aligning your money with your faith. I mean, it really is a picture not just of uh your lives and the journey that God has taken you on, but uh the reality for every good gift we have intended to be stewarded for the spread of his glory. We are not owners, and how all that relates to following Jesus and how we use our money are intertwined. So I just I'm really looking forward to this conversation. But maybe we can start by just a little background from you guys. Like, how long have you been married? Uh something unique about, I don't know, have you met, um, or just life story just from the very beginning.
SPEAKER_00Hugo. You're okay.
SPEAKER_04So I met I I like to say I I I was cruising for chicks in Sunday school, adult Sunday school. So uh we met in church on Capitol Hill. At the bars, right? Better at the bars. And Dana was wearing this beautiful teal dress and had said something really smart about the book we were reading, uh uh Foolishness to the Greeks, right? And I'm like, okay, smart and beautiful. There we go. So I went and had had to make her feel welcome right from the beginning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and he'd only been at the church like two weeks, but he came up to welcome me to the church.
SPEAKER_02And how long had you been there?
SPEAKER_00I had just that was my first time.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. Oh, well, that's good. He was the experienced member who was exactly so you were on Capitol Hill at that point. How did you get how did you get to Capitol Hill?
SPEAKER_00Well, so I had just been overseas getting my master's. Uh, I was in India. Okay. And it was interesting because in India, as a woman, you know, 40 years ago, you learn not to look at men in the eyes because that was very forward. So I had learned, so and Bill had been overseas and was working with Turkish guest workers and had learned not to look at women in the eyes. That was too forward. So we come back to America and we're both trying to look at each not look at each other in the eyes. And then finally, I think we can do, I think we can look at each other.
SPEAKER_02Just another layer of the awkwardness when you're when you're doing the first meeting, period, but then add some of those layers on. That's really funny.
SPEAKER_00But there's the whole cultural sensitivity that we had tried to learn when we were overseas, and then bringing it back here and realizing we're in a different context now.
SPEAKER_01You were working.
SPEAKER_00I was working at the commerce department. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04International trade negotiations, and I was working on Capitol Hill for a member of Congress, and where I spent 20 years on Capitol Hill. Okay.
SPEAKER_02But you had been working with Turks over season?
SPEAKER_04Turkish guest workers because I speak German, went there. That's not their love their heart language, so I learned Turkish when I lived right there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. How how long did you live in Turkey? Just a year. Germany there. Okay. All right. Then how did you end up for going from working with Turkish guest workers uh I mean, as a missionary in Germany to coming to the Capitol Hill? Counting the pavement.
SPEAKER_04Had 200 resumes, one suit. I just started going door to door until I found something.
SPEAKER_02Really? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_04Started at the bottom and just worked my way up.
SPEAKER_02Did you think you were gonna be like long-term missionary or yeah?
SPEAKER_04Uh I was ready to move to Turkey.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_04But I did not like being a missionary. I love the overseas, I love the language part, love the culture part, did not like sitting in tea houses all day long.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting. I I love that just uh as I think about one of the things we talk about a lot is yes, we're all called to be a part of a global mission. That doesn't mean we're all called to move overseas. And and even to your point, uh what just that particular calling that involved sitting in tea houses all day was not what you're wired to do. In a way that God wires other people to do different things, and that's the beauty. God wires us all kinds of different ways. So, okay, so you you'll meet. Sorry, I'm just jumping. No, you're good. Keep going. You'll meet in uh Washington. Uh you get married how long later?
SPEAKER_04So we've been married 36 years. 36 years now. Two years of dating. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And I think the thing that we were both attracted to each other about, besides that we were both sold out um to Jesus and wanting to, and we but we already knew kind of our purpose. We felt that the Lord wanted to use us through our work for justice and um to help the oppressed, and and for me it was uh really uh a call to help the poor. So I worked with eventually USAID um and tried to do poverty alleviation and you know an issue that's important to you, sustainability. We were trying to really think through how we can be sustainable in our impact, but also in in how we um help people steward creation as well. So it was really a stewardship mission. And then for Bill, uh stewarding um good power, right? Power can be used for good in legislation and whatever. And that was to me you know something very attractive that he was working on that his purpose wasn't just to get power, but to help people use power well, to steward power less.
SPEAKER_04In fact, when I was um I remember I don't have power now, but I did then. I remember like my my office was right off the rotunda of the Capitol, and what time driving in and thinking like, well, I'm pretty powerful, you know, I'm doing a lot of big things here, a lot of influence. And the Holy Spirit was right there saying, I gave you this power. Not for building up your own kingdom, but for doing it, serving the least of these, the voiceless and defenseless. That's why you have it, steward it will.
SPEAKER_02Yes, that's really good. I mean, that I mean you just use the word steward, it's obviously uh part of the title of the book you all wrote. Like, uh yeah, help us what does stewardship mean? Uh, because that yeah, I I'm I imagine even people listening right now, stewardship, steward. What is that? What does that even mean? Because that's a pretty fundamental concept to I would say Christianity and and certainly money, but not just money. So, yeah, what comes to y'all, yeah. How do y'all talk about stewardship?
SPEAKER_00I think of the verse, you were bought with a price, you are not your own, right? So everything we have, our breath and our lungs, is a gift from God. Um and when we think we own things, that we are the ultimate arbiter of what how we can you utilize these gifts, um, our life, uh we we talk about it with our time, our treasure, which are money, um, our talent, our ties, which are our relationships, our testimony. Um, we need to be thinking about all these things in terms of they're a gift from God, and to we don't own them, we uh steward them, and then when the master comes back, he can say, either well done, good and faithful servant, or you know, what we fear is I gave you so much and you squandered and look at the the people that didn't hear about the Lord, look at the people that you know, all the sins of omission and commission.
SPEAKER_04So I'm not a liturgical guy, but I've built out my own liturgy, which I start, which I've kind of built it out over the years and says it goes like this. I say this every morning you made me, you saved me, you own me, and you love me. There's nothing that I have that's not from you, there's nothing that I have that's not a gift. You are good. I will choose not to fear my future because you will be with me, and I'll choose to rejoice in today's hardships as an opportunity to become more like you. But that whole sense of like, my life is not my own. You know what it says in Jeremiah, I know, oh Lord, a man's life is not his own. It's not for man to direct his steps. And I actually don't see my life as a gift from God. My life is it can be a gift to others, but my life is a responsibility. Everything I have is a responsibility to be stewarded.
SPEAKER_02For a guy who's not very liturgical, though, I I would say that's a pretty strong liturgy to start your day with. Like part of me wants to just like take that and make sure that's like in like we link to that somewhere or something like that. It's in the book. So good. Well, there you go. That's on the screen. That's good. We have it on our blog post too on that, right? Yes, man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I think when when it comes to stewardship, this has been something that's been weighing on me too recently. It's like even in owning a home for the first time, I'm thinking about it and in the process of owning it, and just realizing even in those things, I don't really own it. Even taking Christianity and our religion and spirituality out of the picture, the government, if I stop paying my property taxes, technically owns my house. And so I think where do you guys uh see a mistake um in the mindset of young people who are trying to get get into this hustle culture where I want to own the nicest house and the nicest car? Where do you find that we fall short of what God's goal is for our stewardship of these things? What what is the what is the missing piece that I feel like young people don't have?
SPEAKER_00Well, let's say they f can fall into two different camps. One is to feel guilt when you're utilizing your resources um for your own good, like a vacation or something good. Or you know, that sometimes we we feel like we have to be poor to please the Lord. And if the Lord asks us to give away everything, then that's one thing. But we believe that he doesn't always ask everyone to give away everything, but he does ask you to utilize it for the good of others, his glory, and for our own needs, right? So we are supposed to utilize our some of our resources for our own needs. I think our problem is when our wants become so excessive.
SPEAKER_01Wow.
SPEAKER_00Um and it's more uh yes, look at your needs, but make sure your need your wants don't become all of a sudden needs, right?
SPEAKER_04We are in the wealthiest country in the history of the world. And there are so many people who are really wealthy by world standards who think they're poor. So I I think some of it is, like Dana said, telling ourselves, oh well, we have to have this. We had some friends who were struggling financially and overspending, and they said then they went to Disney World and they said, Well, we have to go on vacation. Kind of like, well, that's you know, you have to breathe. And I think we tell ourselves a lot of things that we don't really have to do. And one of the early lessons in life, uh, that's so was so m powerful for us was the eighth wonder of the universe, according to Albert Eisline, compound interest. You only get to compound interest if you live below your means. And people say, Well, I don't make a lot of money. It doesn't matter. We were making dirt, and we spent less than dirt was the point. 10% less than dirt. Well, we did tithing right from the beginning, but then another 10% for savings, just always do it. And if pretty soon you're sitting on a pile of money because it starts compounding and it gives you liberty and freedom. And this is what Proverbs calls us to do, to be like the ant, not like the grasshopper. So we'd say for young people, keep track of your expenses. It's easier now to do than it ever has been. Download everything to Quicken or some other budget program from your debit and your credit card, goes like that. It'll categorize you just quickly, recategorize what you think, do that for three months, and then get a track record of where your money's going. It's hard to live an examined life. You don't know where your money is going. And then build from that and say, All right, Lord, you see all this. Is this pleasing to you? Because we think our money is a love letter to God.
SPEAKER_02Wow, that's really powerful. How how how long have you all done that?
SPEAKER_04From the beginning of our marriage.
SPEAKER_02Really? 36 years. Like track your expenses like that. And had even this perspective, this is a love letter to you, in a sense, whether you would have said it that way or not.
SPEAKER_00It came more over time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Partly because it really did free us up. We didn't fight about money, which is one of the you know things that young couples argue over, and we'd, you know, have some concerns, and well, there we go in writing, that's where it went.
SPEAKER_04Um and we read a book together.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We read uh a Larry Briquette book, which was really important for us, Crown Ministries.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So just being on the same page, I'd say having the same goals um for what your resources are for, um, and um talking about it regularly. Because if you want the Lord to use you, then um you want you want to know what you have to give to him back, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Often in a couple, in a marriage, one person will be kind of the money person, the other person will opt out. And we think that's unwise because this is joint stewardship. So we have a monthly meeting about looking over where did our spending go, what did we do last month, so that we're thinking together about these.
SPEAKER_02There's a real I I mean, one takeaway is I'm listening to you and you talk about this. There's a real intentionality to all of that. That that none of that happens accidentally. Uh, like that intentionality to uh, yes, I mean, to look at the expenses to I I think about one other uh couple we we talked with who uh is a part of yeah radical work around the world, they made it a goal early on in their marriage, actually before they were married, that by the time they were 40 they wanted to give away a certain amount of money. And they didn't have a lot of money, and but that just shaped very intentionally all their decision making. You guys made a very intentional decision, we're gonna live below our means, and then so and I know some of your story, like along the way, God entrusted more to you than you would have imagined, and but that didn't change the intentionality, right?
SPEAKER_00Right, and I think actually before um he even gave us more of that wealth, we were really still trying to lean in because I really think it's not how much you have to give away, it's it's the joy even of the little things. It's when when the Lord says, you know, I've give I've given you a little, I'm gonna, you know, uh to see what you do with this. And um, so we started out um early on having a uh thought that we would like to give away more, but never knowing, you know, where we would go. I remember hearing a story one time, probably 30 years ago, where this family had given away 50% of their income. I was like, wow, wow. And so that kind of I'd love to get there. I didn't think we could ever, ever get there. But that kind of North Star was something we were pointing to. And I also wanted to pay off our mortgage by the time I was 50. It's like, let's get completely out of debt so that we're even more free to use our resources for the Lord. Because otherwise, yeah, somebody else owns that, you know. Um, and uh, so those were some things that we we started thinking.
SPEAKER_04And then you came home one day and said, I heard about this guy Laterno, okay, who kept giving more and more every year. He'd increase his tithe at one percent. And when he died, he was giving away 99%. So I said to Dana, let's do that. That would be so fun. She kind of freaked out. Okay.
SPEAKER_02I mean, 1% at this point, it may be a little hard, but we can work. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, but that's what I love about what you're saying. Uh uh, it's the little, like to cultivate that. Like, I I think about, I mean, some people are listening to this who aren't are not even married or not looking at home membership right now. Maybe or like in college. Uh like what would you what would you say to the person who's like just starting out? Like, uh yeah, I think about uh one of my sons who's about to go to college, Lord willing. Like, what will what are you saying to the very young adult at the very beginning of an independent financial journey that you would say, hey, be intentional in these ways? And I th I mean one of them is look at what you're spending, I think. Uh yeah, any what else would you say to them?
SPEAKER_00I'd say uh look at your what income you do have, whatever your money you're managing, and have part of it be a hospitality budget, um, where you will um invite people over or take them out or get a pizza for people. And you know, so think of ways you can be generous with both your time and even your little bits of money uh when you're around your friends. And um, so plan for that. Have that be part of your your budget at college. Um and so then you may have to spend a little less on some clothing or et cetera, but you've got that budget to to think about being generous.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's really good. I mean, the poor on a proportional basis are more generous than the rich. And uh we there's this great video, uh I think maybe it's generous giving, but this very poor church in Southeast Asia, and they all like take one cup of rice a day. A handful of rice handful of rice that they bring back to the church, and the church has this um amazing feeding program that they're doing it, but they're poor people who are doing it. So I think it's that acknowledgement that all of us, this is not for the wealthy, though the wealthy get to be generous. No, it it especially if you few of us are called to give away all of our money. The rich young ruler was, and he didn't do it, but we are all called to surrender all of our money, and that's different than giving it all away. And it does mean though that the Lord has lordship over what I spend, the candy that I buy or don't buy, I love chocolate, the like the whole smear is his, and that sense from the beginning of like I'm gonna give account for all of this. Um, and I want the Lord to be pleased. And one of the in our book, we have 24 stories. The consistent thing we heard from almost everybody was they're waiting for the words. Well done, good and faithful servant. They want that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, and the other thing we heard from everyone was a consistent theme of freedom. You actually feel more free. It's just the same with obedience. The more you obey, the more free freedom you find, which is an oxymoron in a sense, you're giving yourself up, but you're really gaining your true self, like what C.S. Lewis would say. Um, and so people felt more freedom, less anxiety around money, which is, you know, can be so stressful, um, more joy, um, and more relationship too. Um, because when you are thinking about how to utilize your your again, your time and your talent and your treasure for the Lord, your your uh Holy Spirit meter is up to to see people's needs and see people for who they really are and see the image of God in them.
SPEAKER_04And uh relational we liken it to a kid going into a carnival, you know, one of these pop-up carmal carnivals they have and getting all these free tickets for rides. That's what we hear from people who are generous. It is so fun because they get immense joy. These are not dour ascetics who are flagellating themselves. You know, people are like, oh my gosh, this is awesome.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_03Certainly how do we how do we differentiate between generous giving, like you guys are saying, and tithing? And do you have any stats statistics or like stories that you could share about like this person tithed even though they didn't have much and God just blessed them generously?
SPEAKER_00Well, and you probably know this better than I do, David. Tithing um is more than 10% in the Old Testament. What probably 33%?
SPEAKER_02Definitely over yeah, I mean it all it's so uh a little more complicated because it was a system that was supporting a government as well. But yes, it was much more than 10 percent. Interesting. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00But tithe, it's that means a 10%. Right. So we feel that um being in the one of the richest countries of the world in the history of the world, we should be able to give more than a you know, the peasants in in in Judea. But um we feel like everyone should at least start with 10%. Um and if you're not even doing 10%, just start with 1%. Just start. Exercise those generosity medals to start. Um but I'd say the then above and beyond the tenth, we kind of look out as our our offering as our and our As our gifts, and then we just challenge ourselves each year to think, what can we do to do more?
SPEAKER_04So we did Tithe on Gross, by the way, because we say it's first fruits. Um I also you have to get away from the mentality of like God is the divine tax man, like ah, I gave him his 10, yeah, and now I get to go do the rest, it's good the rest of my money. No, it's all his. These are blurry lines. And by the way, if you have debt, it might not be good for you to do more than 10%. You should do 10%, but you should like get out of get out of debt. Debt is is a burden, and it's something that it's not strictly proscribed by scripture, but it's definitely not prescribed. It's not something that's good for most of us. There's kind of and you differentiate with debt. School debt is productive debt. Productive debt. Uh car debt is might need a car, but get like a cheaper car, like it's not productive debt necessarily, depreciating assets. So think carefully about how you structure that. But really, it's like the whole playing field now. This all belongs to God. And every part of it. There's not one part where I'm like, this is mine, I get to do what I want with it. It's all his. That doesn't mean though, I mean, 1 Timothy 6 says Paul writes, command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant, nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Now, does that mean that you can just go buy whatever you want because you'll enjoy it? No, but God is not a divine kill joy.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. That's what I well, it makes me think. I just think of so many different texts that are coming to my mind as you all are speaking, like 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, certainly the impoverished church giving, not because they felt like they had to, because they wanted to. Out of the overflow of their poverty, they're giving with joy, which, as you've you've shared, is a reality, yes, among so many of our brothers and sisters around the world who demonstrate uh that. And then even just the the rich young ruler, which you you've mentioned, uh, like that was a it was a call for his good. Like that was not a call to sacrifice, that was a call to, yes, to surrender, but uh you'll have treasure in heaven and you'll be following me. This is win-win. Uh so that we were really that we would hear God's call for us to give and to be stewards as a call. And that's part of what I loved. I don't remember the line from your liturgy, but this is I trust your good and you desire my good in this. And uh, I just think that mentality is so important just to realize God is not, yes, the divine tax man, the uh the killjoy out to ruin our lives. Uh, he really wants our enjoyment, but our enjoyment uh comes about very different from the way this world says our enjoyment comes about. Well, what are some other things that come to your mind where we are being what at any age or stage of life, from younger to older, where we're being conformed to the pattern of this world and we need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds when it comes to giving? Or the use of our money just altogether.
SPEAKER_00I think some Christians are so afraid of good the word good works that it means they're trying to earn their way to heaven, that then they don't concentrate on what good works did God set aside for them to do before they were even born. And it's that going back to service that our life should be about service. Um and I think we yeah, we shy away from um the idea of good works. And I think that uh serving others is where we're gonna find our joy, our purpose, our meaning, and um it delights God, it delights us.
SPEAKER_02It's good. Yes. Service is for our good and others' good, our joy and others' good. Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_00And the kingdom building side that we're really here to, you know, be kingdom builders. Not that the um the the full kingdom will not come back until Christ comes back. But we are supposed to be rebuilding that wall. Any part of the wall that's falling down, we're supposed to be rebuilding. Any part of the city that needs flourishing, we're supposed to be bringing the flourishing. So we're supposed to be doing that and using our mental and uh physical energy uh and financial energy till the day we die, till their last breath.
SPEAKER_04So I think it's easy for us to become very insular about our money and we share it maybe just with our spouse or maybe with nobody. Um, and that's not good. There should be, it doesn't mean that you share it with everybody, but you should find some other people in your lives with whom you can be totally open about your finances, your net worth, your salary, your tithe, everything. We have another couple where the Chapmans, uh, she's the head of generous giving, April Chapman. We open it all up. They see our books, we see their books, we talk about um where where to give, how to give, how to invest. I mean, all of it. And there's incredible freedom and joy which comes from thinking together with others. Now, I think a lot of people are afraid of being judged. Oh, well, I'll be judged. Well, I can't judge others. Like, I can't look at somebody driving a Porsche and say, oh, well, they're wrong. That's between them and God, right? Um, each of us has, and we have different answers to that. The Lord will give liberty in some area for one person and not for another. The key is lordship, right? And letting him be the arbiter of what we do and not do. And by the way, these are not bright lines. Um, you have to work this out with other people. Um, we bought a boat last year before the book came out, and Dana said, There goes our testimony.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, the optics don't look good on that.
SPEAKER_04But the joke, but actually, she didn't mean that because it really was like we felt complete freedom from the Lord to actually do that thing. But we talked to other people. Before I even talked to Dana about this idea, I got talked with another guy who's very godly and thoughtful about stewardship and said, What do you think about this? And he could ask me those pointed, difficult questions. But it was totally, and even now, it's on the Lord. The Lord wants us to sell that boat tomorrow. We're selling that. Like, this is not our boat, this is his boat. And um, that's true of everything we have. It has to be that sense of constant ongoing surrender.
SPEAKER_02I I love that uh emphasis on community, like not trying to figure this out on your own. I feel like that's countercultural. Like we think, yeah, my money, I'm just gonna kick you, or yeah, me and my wife, like we that's just for us, as opposed to yes, for us to truly. I mean, we part of discipleship is opening up our whole life to each other. So if we're gonna talk about our thought life and our desires and our yeah, all every facet of our life, why would that not include money? And why would we not want that? Why would we not want other spirit-filled followers of Jesus speaking into our lives? If we really want to glorify God, we need the body to do that. So, even that I would just say, as I think about Austin, first-time homeowner, like who's yeah, or just early on in life and then all the way to me to you guys like for us to have people in our lives that we're uh yeah, having really good, intentional, open, honest conversations and pursuing Jesus together with our money. That's really big.
SPEAKER_00And being willing to call out um the sin that can be associated with money. So um early on in our marriage, when Bill was kind of the excited one about let's increase our giving, and uh he had I realized he had the gift of generosity. I do not have the gift of generosity because I was basically meeting every challenge with fear first. Then, okay, I'll pray about it and then think about it and you know, and then maybe, maybe move out of duty, but not necessarily out of joy. Um and um what I i there was a time when Bill said, uh Dana, I uh do you have some greed in your heart over this? And really hard to hear when your best friend, you know. And I said, Well, examine, and I actually did. I had both greed and and probably fear of not having enough, that God wasn't enough, you know, the the trust issue. Um and that actually was made me love him more that he would be free enough to be able to say, you know, examine that and and uh let that go. Um so it it was still like moving a steamship around when we have certain kind of you know sins that are kind of more maybe um uh you know long-term, deeply rooted um in some fears. But I think over time God has used that generosity portal with me that to lean into that to give up to to actually rebuke the fears and rebuke the greed.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um so if I can answer a question of my wife, cheerfulness, cheerful giver. You said that you didn't start cheerful.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I didn't so I still when when God loves a cheerful giver, that doesn't mean he doesn't love uncheerful givers. He loves them just as much, too. But he knows that we will become cheerful if we give over time. Yeah, that's good. Right? Yeah. And that's what's happened to me. I went from duty, well, actually, I went from guilt to duty uh and obedience, which I think are, you know, duty and obedience are great. You know, start somewhere uh to um, oh, this is just becoming habit and regular um it wasn't radical anymore. It's like this is just the way we should be living, and then joy um and freedom. Yeah, and you know, so good.
SPEAKER_02That's the pattern. I just to make the connection, sorry, I keep interrupting you, Austin, but uh you don't get to that joy and freedom if it's guilt that's driving you, and so to move past that into yeah, I love the way you put that. Okay, it doesn't feel like this is awesome to do, but I'm gonna trust you. You're telling me to do this obedience. Uh, even that, yeah, there's all kinds of ways that God, yeah, we find ourselves stepping into obedience like that, but it will lead to joy. This is John 15. I'm abide in me, walk in my commands, and I'm telling you this for your joy. Yeah, it's so good.
SPEAKER_00Well, and just the whole thesis of what you're saying is that Christianity should be radical. We should look different than the world, and yet we look so similar to the world. Um, and so I think the way we manage our money should look different than the world. The way we we talk about the way we invest our money should look different. Um, we should not be investing in companies that bring harm to the world just so we can then generate money to then undo that through nonprofits, right?
SPEAKER_02That's part of you guys' journey that at one point you relooked at investments along those lines, right?
SPEAKER_03Can we touch on that? What is what how are some faithful Christians maybe just unknowing of what their money is actually going towards in terms of companies that are not doing things biblically?
SPEAKER_04Guaranteed, if you just are only investing for risk tolerance, you'll have stuff in your portfolio in inside of funds that you'd be like, oh my gosh, I totally disagree with that. That goes completely against my faith. So there would have been a time when when we first talked about this, Dana was a little concerned, like, do I have to become a stock analyst now? Like it was like, yeah, there are so many uh resources now available to Christians to, in a frankly, in a very easy, pain-free way, to align your money with your faith. And you you there's funds, there's like 250 Christian funds already in the country. There's even tide, there's sovereigns, there's all these places where you can get into it that it's not just for rich people, right? Where you can feel good about where what what the impact your your money's having. When you look at a pie chart of all the liquid investable assets in the US, the pie that goes to charitable, less than 1%. Christians only tithe, by the way, about 3%, evangelical Christians, which is too bad. Um but even if we were doing 10, the biggest part of the pie is the other part. And why would we be unconscious of that? If I told you guys, look, strip clubs are doing great this year, you know, you're gonna be able to give more to missions, would you do it? No. Dana likes to say no ill-gotten gains. We do not want ill gotten gains. So there are so many resources available to you. They're in our book, they're on our website. If you want to don't want to buy our book, stewards not owners, stewards not owners uh.com. And you can just go and find places and just start that journey to make sure that you are loving the world and that you are, as Even Tide, one of these funds likes to say, is re that you're investing in things that make the world rejoice.
SPEAKER_02So good. And uh so my my where my mind's going as I'm listening to you talk about that, is your uh finances a love letter to God. That love letter, yeah, it doesn't uh feel like a love letter. It's it's filled with investments that may get me more money, but are going to things that are very dishonoring to him. Uh wow, yeah, that's really powerful.
SPEAKER_03I know y'all are passionate about not just taking your own money and stewarding it well, but discipling others into that. How do we practically introduce discipleship with our money management? How do we marry those two ideas in the local church context?
SPEAKER_00Well, Crime Crown Financial Ministries has some great programs that people can bring into their churches. Uh, faith-driven entrepreneur and investor.org also has some really great programs if you um want to encourage people in that kind of kingdom-building mindset with with their both their talent and their work and their um and their finances. Um and then just talking about it. I think too many pastors feel like that their congregationists say, Whoa, here he is talking about money again. It's like, you know, it's one of the major think of all the deadly sins. There's like what money and greed is one of them. We should be talking about it a lot more and not be afraid to be talking about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Especially when it's uh yeah, it's it's an idol in so many ways. And I mean, you mentioned First Timothy 6 earlier, like uh, yes, the love of money and how it leads to many pains. Like, if we want to keep each other from many pains, then we've got to guard each other from the love of money. And none of us can do that on our own.
SPEAKER_04I'm a Bible memorizer, and so I memorize a lot of sc scriptures and including about money. And so when we do our monthly budget meeting, we'll often like I'll do I'll recite something uh about for Sympathy's sake, some great verses in there. Second Corinthians 9 about um remember this, whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, whoever sows generously will also reap generously. There are so many verses about money in in scripture, and uh uh Bible memorization is good for all of us, it's not just for kids.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes, absolutely. Uh now, so just to make uh clear, you guys don't think it's bad to make money uh or to have profit. I know you're like working on a book on profit, so uh I'd love to yeah, hear just some of your thoughts. Give us some teasers uh on profit. Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00Well, we think within the um the creation mandate, when the Lord said, you know, um uh multiply, have dominion and multiply, he didn't mean just have babies. You know, he meant to take the raw materials of the good earth that he gave us and create beauty, you know, good, good, true, and beautiful things, culture, alter um artifacts, um, cities. Uh and um to do that you need to um create profit. Like when you are planting a seed, you're not trying to just get a couple seeds back. You want to harvest, right? Um, and the it's this idea that um there is enough, there's abundance in the world, you know, minus sin. Sin is what then takes the scarcity and the and greed, you know, and um makes things um you know spread out in a wrong way. But God's intent is for profit and multiplication to be a blessing to everyone. Um so what we want to do is get back to that idea that yes, the Lord loves addition, meaning he's gonna go and rescue that one sheep that's wandered away. But we also need to be thinking about how can we multiply um in everything we do? What our when our hands um are put to the plow, can we multiply? And that doesn't mean just in uh missions, but that means in in business as well, because business is what creates the the profit then that is able to give to be more generous, to provide for families, to create um uh you know the needs to to provide for the needs that we have.
SPEAKER_04And this is not the health and wealth gospel. Some of us are called to be poor and will be poor. Um and that doesn't mean that you've been therefore faithless, right? Um but we also see in scripture before the fall, as Dana said, cultivation was at the core of this. Cultivation is profit. That's the differential between your input and your output. You wouldn't do it otherwise, right? I mean, it would just be like a rat's wheel. Um, it's you are actually increasing, and it's so core to how God intended. It says in Genesis that God planted a garden. Why did not God say Shazam, a garden appears? He planted it and he said he gave seed-bearing plants. Why do you say seed-bearing? Why don't you just say plants? Because inherent in that is I planted and now you will have seeds that you will go and plant. You go and do likewise. I work six days and rest, you work six days. That idea of flourishing, multiplication, making bounty, we see throughout scripture as in the Old Testament, in particular, he talks about all the ways it's a sign of bounty. We see it in the parable of the talents, we see it in the great wedding feast. God is not ashamed of bounty. In fact, it's it's a beautiful thing. Um, and it can be twisted. We can exploit, we can exploit our employees, we can exploit customers, um, we can gouge, that's all wrong. Like all of God's good gifts, they can be twisted. But that's different than saying that profit in itself is inherently wrong. In fact, it's something to be celebrated, not be embarrassed about. And it's not just a means of funding nonprofits. Some of the world's greatest problems require for-profit businesses because the nonprofit money, even if we were all tithing what we should, is never going to be big enough. You can do a lot more, it is more scalable, and there's all kinds of things inherent in for-profits, like the customer um feedback loop loop, which is so critical to addressing needs that often nonprofits lack.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, there's a lot there. That's good. I I think this is so important. Money is not evil. Uh, profit is not evil. Uh, these are good gifts from God that can be stewarded for human flourishing and for God's glory and for our good. And there are gifts from God that can be misused, abused, and loved and put in a position they're not supposed to be put in and used for a lot of injustice and evil in the world. So that that's the stewardship picture, right? Like we we're at the crux of that. So, how are we gonna use these things that steward these things that God's given us?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, what are some ways that we can practically from this conversation, somebody listening can implement um some strategies that you guys have found really helpful in stewarding your money well for the glory of God? Some daily rhythms that we can because I know we talked about it before the podcast started, but could you guys share those again of just like as a young person or anybody who's getting into money management and figuring out like, okay, I don't actually own this. God has given me this to me so I can steward it for his glory. How do we start?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'd say make sure you're also looking at your other resources, which are your time or let's say your home, right? That's a place where you can utilize that for the Lord. Are you are you thinking about how to be hospitable? And there's a difference between entertaining people and being hospitable. Um and so uh I think that um trying to just make baby steps in all of those different areas, take an inventory once a year. Are we using our car in the right way? Are we using our home in the right way? Could we be blessing more people with the resources that we've we've got? So I think uh it's it's kind of muscle memory. You start with start off with using your muscles to build those kind of things into your life, and then they become normal and they're part of your who you are, right? As you're as you're growing up. And the decisions you make become different because you've got different uh categories and boundaries that you're looking at, and also different purpose. Um so, but then just back to make sure you man, you know, use wise man money management um resources. Uh also think through each year of where does how does the Lord want you to be heading towards your calling? And right, your work is your worship. It can be and it should be. And so how are you? um leaning into your calling even at work. Right?
SPEAKER_02Yes. So good. I I I wanna uh double click because you both of you have used and multiple times the term muscle development, muscle memory. I just think that is a it really is a helpful analogy to think that nobody goes into a weight room and puts 325 on a bench press rack and just throws it up. Like nobody does that. Uh you have to build those muscles. You have to start at the bar. Like you have to start with a little bit of weight on each side and then a little more a little more and uh and the more and it becomes easier it becomes like you're able to do more than you ever could have done but it it's step by step. So to cultivate these steps is so so important. Yeah. So what else would you add, Bill? To just uh yeah healthy rhythms or daily thing I mean you mentioned your liturgy which is so helpful but anything else that comes to your mind it's just start the journey of a thousand miles begins with single step.
SPEAKER_04So don't be intimidated by this and think oh my gosh how do I start like start with one just start keeping track buy a program get a program everybody's got a credit card or a debit card it seems like it's gonna be it's gonna take you a little bit of time it probably takes you about an hour a month to keep track of your expenses that seems like that's a pretty reasonable place to start it's hard to be as I said you know how can you live the examined life when you when you're not examining where your money's going I think a lot of people just don't know they just look at what's my balance well you might be fooling yourselves.
SPEAKER_00Yeah we played games with ourselves too early on where okay let's say we uh end of the year we got a a raise and we that first month whatever was excess that we'd lived on the past salary the last year let's just give away that that first excess um from our bonus or not our bonus but our our salary increase that month and pretend we were still living on the old salary and it just that's an experiment. Can we do it?
SPEAKER_02Yeah we can because we did it last month sure um and then those kind of games with ourselves would would would help us think doing something different which is countercultural like okay our standard of living doesn't have to increase with our salary like it actually yeah I mean that's very different way to live.
SPEAKER_04And I'm acquisitive and I like counting and I like so I one thing that I think the Lord gave me this idea of is to setting a lifetime giving goal. And I keep moving the goalposts as I get closer to the first but we didn't get far enough. And so uh and it was a crazy goal when we first set it so it was just like it gives me something other than you know it's easy just to otherwise say what's my net worth goal right when can I retire? But have set set some other goals for yourself like how much could I give in my lifetime? So good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah and that like I to use the imagery earlier you're like benching 325 now and you're like way this is like easy I can I can do 400 or whatever. Like uh yes I love that picture. I I so real quick uh because I I'm just trying to think there's so much gold here um practical things that I've heard you guys mention and obviously the ton of this is or all this is in the the book but uh uh okay tracking spending examining your life doing that not just on your own doing that with uh certainly with a spouse if you're married or regardless doing it with other followers of Jesus in community so whether you're married or single so tracking what you're spending doing it with others building an intentional hospitality how how are we well intentional just giving of our resources and giving our time to serve others believing this is where life is found looking at any investments we're making making sure that's wise investments that are promoting human flourishing um what else am I missing that we that just is real just and daily I would say your liturgy daily reminding yourself I'm a steward and I've I serve a and worship a good God who's working for my good and all this.
SPEAKER_04Yeah so stewardship is not like a mathematical equation or scientific experiment. This is about um like painting a picture and it's artistry. And we have been so blessed by hearing about other people's artistry. And the fact that they would be willing to share with us uh about their financial journey in concrete ways would give us ideas and we're like oh that's got our name on it other ways be like no no that's definitely not for us but hearing stories so I think the admonition not to let your right hand left right hand left know your what your left hand know what your right hand is doing can be uh needlessly prohibitive especially when it also says and Jesus said let your light shine in the hill and we have been blessed this one guy um Barnard um what's his first name Alan Alan Barnard you know they're amazing so generous he has this huge crane company for the first three years when he was being approached uh because he gives away he just draws a salary he gave away his company which is making billions but he's still running it right it's just now an income generator for giving and all the things he resisted letting his story be known because he was like that's gonna be proud and showy and boastful thank God he finally relented because it's been a blessing for so many other people who get ideas. Dana and I said when we started our book tour if people come away saying the Wichtermans aren't they amazing we will have failed this is not a story about the Wichtermans or even about the story of the people in our book. This is a story about God and his generosity to us and how can we become like him in being more generous.
SPEAKER_02So good beautiful I uh um yes yes yes this is what we're designed to be as the church spurring one another on toward Jesus as opposed to we can't do that if we're silent in this place. I would love to hear just and obviously there's a lot in the book but a little uh glimpse into just the joy you guys have experienced in your giving journey and in not just giving but investing journey as you've come alongside uh other brothers and sisters in Christ even in different parts of the world and co-laboring together in promoting human flourishing with the resources that you're stewarding. So yeah give us just a little bit of a snapshot of that encouragement.
SPEAKER_00Well I would say my joy has been because I see the ability to help change. I've been all about trying to help with poverty alleviation for most of my career. And to see that um entrepreneurs now especially are so creative in those areas and thinking about how to use business for good. And because not only will the business if it if it does what it's supposed to do to help job creation and help people give them dignified jobs so that they can support their families. And then those kids will grow up not being poor, right?
SPEAKER_04And you know so you basically are sustaining um the the uh impact um that's what I've seen God allow me to do through the use of resources is um help with impact and that to me is um the joy that I experience when I see it um in um all the different businesses that we are encouraging or um you know investing in there's the greatest joy there and they're the creative ones I am not creative but I can come along as uh maybe a patron yeah for them that's necessary so we can retire and you know that's we have lots of people in our stage of lives you know in the 60s who can retire and uh we got ideas from others of like no don't retire keep going but when you retire say you can retire what you've concluded is and you need to do careful analysis I have enough money now to live the rest of my days I think a lot of people do that too early but once you have that right then keep going and just start giving away everything you earn that we've been doing for now for a couple years way more fun than we ever expected. And so if I'm having a hard day at work I'm aggravated I'm like yes but I remember that woman in who in the Mathari slum of Kenya whom we went and met who had an internet cafe of one computer and she wanted to buy a second and she needed a loan and you know how hard it is to get capital in the developing world extremely difficult. My working today means she gets to get the capital for that computer right and it's like is that worth it I'm giving that's life giving I've not given her a computer that's right she would what I'm doing is actually would even be a loan is what she would get is a computer and you know the old thing of give a man a fish lead for a day teach him to fish lead for a lifetime we like to say actually rent him a fishing pole or rent him a fishing boat because then you can get a return on those dollars so that we can do that for others. This is like the goose that lays the golden egg or uh the flywheel the flywheel that the role of profit and revenue is not something that we have to be uh sorry about it's something that can go so much farther.
SPEAKER_03There's this one guy we mentioned in our book he's lighting up bringing light to Philippine islands lots of islands have no electricity no light little solar powered um light but he comes into the island and he leases these people have to pay for them and he makes a profit on that he has now lit up thousands there are so many islands in the Philippines thousands of islands if this had been a nonprofit he would have lit up hundreds of islands that's a good point yeah wow that's so good Bill and Dana thank you guys so much for being here I mean I wish this would just keep going on because I'm learning so much from you both but could one of you guys pray us out um and just encouraging anybody listening that this is wherever you are whether you're just starting out with you know getting your first job or you are on the edge of retirement like would you just pray that we would all serve the Lord in stewardship and not trying to pretend like we're owners of this I would just say this conversation has been full of of gold and this book's full of gold but like thank you guys for stewarding God's grace in your life not just in a way that yes is uh uh affecting this moment in this Islam lights in the Philippines but uh I'm praying and as we pray now will bear fruit in a lot of our lives uh for his glory in ways far beyond what any of us can ask or imagine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah so thank you can one of you all pray us out I will sure it's great awesome Lord God thank you so much that you um invite us into your kingdom building that you want us um and you've made us uh for such a time as this Lord that you uh shower so many blessings on on us and Lord may we also just um steward these right that we would um find be found faithful God teach us how to do it um this life is confusing there's so many signals from the world to live otherwise please Lord help us to know how to um surrender each day um and know that we can trust you you are a good God you have our good in mind and uh Lord that um you want to bring flourishing to this world through us um so may we be your hands and feet and may we think rightly about these things and then do rightly Lord with your by your help and by your grace in your name we pray amen thanks so much for joining us today on Everyday Radical if this episode stirred your heart for Christ and his mission our hope is that you would check out some of our previous episodes as well and do not forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on what's ahead.
SPEAKER_03Let's keep making Jesus known everywhere together. See you next time.