Everyday Radical
What does it actually look like to make disciples of all nations? Everyday Radical explores what happens when ordinary people embrace an extraordinary calling: to make Jesus known everywhere.
Each episode brings you honest conversations with David Platt, Austin Huang, and other believers around the world—some in positions of leadership, others on the margins—who are living out the gospel with courage, clarity, and compassion. We go beyond theory to explore the practical, everyday realities of following Jesus and helping others do the same—wherever He leads.
Everyday Radical
Trip Lee on How Faith Shapes His Music
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In this episode of Everyday Radical, David Platt and Austin Huang talk with Trip Lee about creativity, worship, and cultural expression.
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Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today's episode encourages you to do just that. So let's dive right in. Well, I just want to even start by saying I told a lot of my friends that we're gonna have Triple E on the podcast, and they're like, oh my gosh, like that's insane. That's cool. Uh and so for someone who might not know you though, uh, I was I told you before we started rolling that I listened to you on LaCray's podcast, and I learned that you started your music career when you were like really young. Yeah. Could you take us back to that time?
SPEAKER_03Sure. You know, when I was about 14, that's when I met Jesus. Um before then, I'm not hostile to the gospel at all, assumed I was a Christian. Um, and when I was 14, that's when, you know, I started going to youth group for social reasons. You know, there's this um Baptist church that my family would go to. I had heard the gospel a lot growing up, start going for social reasons, have a great youth pastor who preaches the gospel. Um, and the stuff that I had assumed about the gospel, uh, the stuff that I hadn't understood when I repeated a prayer after children's pastor when I was a little gay, about how good and holy God was, about the ways I'd sinned against him, about what it meant to repent and believe. That stuff started to click. I realized I was a bad lord in my life, um, and it turned my life upside down. I had already been rapping at that time. It wasn't good. In case you understand, you had already been rapping at 14, like how long you'd been rapping at So, you know, it I was rapping the way that you the way that I watched Michael Jordan, it was like, I want to do that, was playing basketball. It's like I I was writing raps all the time. Okay. No, I had already understood that I was taking it more seriously than my friends. So we was always rapping in school, rapping at the lunch table, passing little rhyme books around. And I think there was a time already where I was like, I think I'm better than better than all of you. But also, I was telling somebody earlier, I was also obsessed with it in a way that I don't think my friends were. I think there's something about creativity, having an idea in my mind, and then I can work towards it existing, and then I can hear it, is something that I've uh that's always just been incredible to me. And I was printing out lyrics to my favorite rappers and trying to understand metaphor and the stuff that we knew and it was getting in trouble because I was up rapping all night. And um so I was I loved, loved, loved hip-hop. Um, and when I'm passionate about something, I really do kind of hyper-focus on it. And so I was already really obsessed with hip-hop and loved it. And then when I meet Jesus and I'm already rapping, I'm starting as I'm like rethinking every area of my life, yeah, how I'm interacting with my friends, how I'm interacting with the opposite sex, how I'm thinking about school. My music, too. I'm like, as I'm reading the Bible, it seems obvious that I'm not the center of the universe. I rap though as if I'm the center of the universe. Um I'm starting to see how the Bible talks about how I should interact with women. I I'm talking about girls like the like, you know, not in the same way the scriptures. Maybe I should rearrange how I'm thinking about things. So I, you know, I was rapping in my church a little bit in the youth group. Again, I'm glad there was no cell phone footage of this because it was awful. Um I was on a youth praise team. I would um like I would lip sync uh and then there'd be a little breakdown and I would rap. Um what do you mean? Well, you would lip sync on the youth praise. We'd be singing a song, we'd probably sing in He's Able by Kurt Franklin. I just been up there. Who's who's who's actually singing?
SPEAKER_00Kurt? No, there are you know it's like a praise with like four people usually it's four people who can sing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but I was just lip syncing, and then there'd be some little breakdown, and then I would step out and I would rack. Something horrible. Came from a good place. So good, man. And then um, yeah, and then I was, you know, long story short, I I made this little mixtape in my room and was like selling it in school. Um, and my my youth faster let me do like a little mixtape release party. Which again, this this goes to show how supportive and loving my some of the people God was putting in my life were. I had seen Lecrae and Tadashi and Shobaraka open up for Cross Movement, who's my favorite Christian rap group at the time. And uh then I found some way to get Lecrae's number. Nobody knew who any of us were. Uh-huh. And I was like, hey, can you come to this thing I'm doing? And him and Tadashi, now I'm six, I'm 15. And they're like, oh yeah, we'll come. So they just came and How old were they? They were about 10 years older than me. They were in college, they're like eight, 10 years older than me. So they're early 20s. Okay. And they come and they open up for me at this little thing. And then after that, they're like, hey, is anybody discipling you? And I was like, I don't know what that is. And we built this relationship. And then I signed that record deal with Reach Records. This was just starting um when I was senior high school.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Wow, man.
SPEAKER_03That was pretty crazy. Uh-huh. Yeah. So that was how many years ago? Like 2006 was when that album came out. It was like right as I graduated high school. So that's almost 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_0220 years ago. Wow. This year it is, uh huh. It's crazy. Yeah. Man, so part of me wants to just ask, like, yeah, I mean, there's a lot that's happened in that 20 years. Yeah. What are some uh pivotal moments in that 20 years, shaping moments? Uh, and and could be like uh like professional kind of moments or like spiritual moments or like uh yeah, trajectory shifting moments. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03One of the things that's interesting about starting so early is you know, I'm a teen and my brain is still forming. That sometimes people are like, oh, did you think it was gonna be this? And I'm like, I honestly don't know what I thought this was gonna be. It definitely wasn't this. But at the time, the only thing I cared about, to my detriment, was Jesus and hip-hop. Uh I was still figuring out how to be disciplined in school. Uh I was still there was a lot of a lot of stuff where I was like, I love Jesus, I love rap. Um, but I was just like, if I get to rap, these are the two things I care about most. And I get to be really passionate about both of them at the same time. Yeah, that's good. Um, the music I was hearing from Cross Movement, which was deep, theological, and it was good. I was like, the impact that had on me, I would love to have that impact on other people. Yeah, but you know, so some pivotal moments, one would be when I did that little album release party and LaCray and Tadashi came. Um, Lecrae asking me after, hey, is anybody discipling you? That's a life-changing question for me. Now, my youth pastor, he had been discipling me in some ways. But this was new terminology, and so now I have another mature Christian who is walking with me, teaching me Bible study methods, giving me good books. Um, and you know, it's at that point, even like, hey, like we want to do music stuff, but the music isn't really the main thing. So we would love you, we would love to focus on your growth in Jesus. And I'm like, that's the very thing I would love to focus on. That's awesome. Um so God was very gracious to, you know. So that that that would be a really key moment. Um, you know, by the time I go to college, my first album has already come out, and I'm part of a church plan in Philly, and there's a lot of Christian hip-hop stuff going on there. But, you know, during that season, I don't know. I didn't think I was gonna pastor, even as I went to Bible college. I just thought, oh, I just want to uh teach the word, help people to grow. I think my understanding of the local church was a little, it was still growing. I had understood discipling one another, really important. I hadn't really understood as much the local church being the main place where that happens in the life of a Christian. Um, so even as I'm growing as an artist, now I'm doing it in a community, both in school and with other people. Um, I think that's part of what changed how I approached music. Well, I was never your regular artist who was on the road 200 days a year. I was in college. So it's like I I already had limitations, and so I had to say no to so much stuff right away. So it shaped a lot of ways how I approach my career. Where I don't know, some of the things some of the decisions I made later about how often I was gonna be gone on Sunday mornings, um, what kind of opportunities I'd be willing to say no to. I think some in some ways was shaped by I'm still a teenager in college being developed, and this can't, I can't turn this into what my entire life is about. And I think allowed me to, in some ways, approach things in healthy ways.
SPEAKER_00Um Praise God for that. Praise God that his grace allowed you to not because I'm sure it was like a temptation to like just jump right into it, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You didn't have to go to college, you didn't have to go to Bible college.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then I well I did because we I don't think I at least right away, I wasn't like, oh, I'm just gonna be able to provide for my self and my family for 20 years. You know, um that part felt like a bonus and a surprise. Uh okay. Um there wasn't a lot of examples of very successful Christian rappers providing for their families, rapping about Jesus around the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in some ways, I think God used that to help us to pursue it without fame and acclaim being our it was because not only was it not our main motive, we didn't think it was an option.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, not even possible.
SPEAKER_03No, and there's a line on my first album where I say, you know, I don't care if I don't ever get a billboard hit. Um and I said that thinking there will never be a day when the name Triple is on any billboard chart or list anywhere. And I'm fine with that because that's why I'm doing this. So it was not uh possibility. Um and that to me feels like a gift. Yes. Um because then when some of that stuff happens, um, then I'm responding to a surprise thing that the Lord has done. Um and so sometimes we're like, oh well, how do I? I'm like, that's not even how we thought about it. And so I don't even know how to give you a blueprint in that direction. Uh we were trying to be faithful with the opportunities put in front of us. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Which man, that what a that's a good takeaway. Yeah. Faithful with where the next step the Lord has for you in whatever facet of life. Like you don't have to figure out the 20-year plan at this point. Just keep like, yeah, yeah. Keep faithfully following what seems like faithful responsibility right now. Amen. And uh and not being consumed by ambition in the process, which is a huge temptation. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I kind of want to dive into your idea of uh brag worship. Yeah. Did you come up with that? What does that mean? Could you kind of explain that?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So, you know, I have as a rapper, I have put out eight solo albums. Um I'm really grateful for that. And I uh yeah, I I also wanted to write some different kinds of songs. And this is like a desire I've had for a long time. I will say, in my music that I've put out, um, bragging on God has been a theme that you'll hear a lot. Um, you'll hear, you know, I don't know, like one of my songs 116. I say Allen is 116 to brag on my king, Roma's 116. Hip hop is a very boastful art form. There was an Olympics for bragging. Uh rappers would be the gold medalists. Um they are uh shameless and very good at it. And so in an art form like hip hop, where everything is kind of bold and in your face, to me, I'm like, I wanna make boasting on God a current theme, uh a uh a recurrent theme in my music. And so, you know, even when I would be blogging, it was like brag was the, you know, name my site, and it was like a little bit of a, yeah. So people who've been following me know about that. And then as I thought about this kind of corporate worship music I wanted to write, it felt like it was a good way to to describe what it was that I'm doing, trying to make much of God. When I was uh when I was at uh Piphany Fellowship, which is a church I was at when I was in Philly, um, I uh when that church planted, there were lots of really good musicians, and so people they were taking songs from you know, like CCM songs and traditional gospel songs that made them feel like us. It was like kind of a yeah, it was it was that they made it feel like our church felt. There weren't a lot of songs that felt like that. And I was like, man, I wish there were more songs that we didn't have to make feel even more like us, but we're still songs that God's people gather together to sing, so good. Um, and had that thought, you know, time and time again in different places, um, even you know, helping them plant a church in Atlanta. Um yeah, and so I'm like, if if worship music, if the the songs that Christians sing together, um is such an important part of God's people gathering together, then this it shouldn't be limited to a few different expressions. There should be as many expressions as there are different cultures and peoples, and I'm like, I just want there to be more different kinds of stuff. Um and there's so much worship music that has really impacted me, that has really blessed the church. And I'm like, if I can, in the same way that I heard Christian hip hop that impacted me, and I want to impact people with that. These great hymn writers and worship songwriters, they've impacted me deeply, and I'm like, I want there to be more of that good stuff. And so um, so yeah, this has been an idea I've had for a really long time for these for this project I'm working on. I am writing and producing these songs, mostly having other people sing them. I don't want people's imagination to be limited by my limited vocal ability. Um, I am on some of them, but um for the most part, writing and producing them, and working with artists who I think um who are some of my favorite artists. Um yeah, so I'm I'm excited for people to hear it. I don't know how people are gonna respond to it. Uh-huh. It's very different. It's a very different project for me. I think I think all the time that I was thinking about it, and you know, some of the songs I wrote a long time ago, um, some of them I, a lot of them I wrote more recently, but all the time people would be like, no, tell me what it is, what are you doing again? It's just hard for people to like, wait, so wait, but what do you mean by that? Like, you're gonna rap and it'll be uh like a worshipy hook. I'm like, no, no, no. These are just songs for Christians to sing. I want churches to sing these, I want small groups to sing these. Um what I see in the New Testament is not God wants, there's some stuff that God wants us to do. And I think we think of songs sometimes as like something that we made up at some point. You know, like people like, oh, you know, the Western Church, they they have their fog and their lights and all the little stuff we added. And I'm like, yeah, music is not one of those things. Okay, this is something that God commanded us to do. Yes, yeah, to sing songs. Um in the epistles, when Paul was talking about letting the word of Christ dwell in us richly, um, he's talking about teaching and admonishing one another and singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. This is one of the ways that we let the word of Christ dwell in us richly. I want pastors to think of it more as a tool for discipling their congregations, not as the opener for their sermon. Um uh and if it's that important, then I'm just like, here's my contribution, you know, for us to do some of it. So we'll see if it's good.
SPEAKER_02So again, when when when does it come out?
SPEAKER_03Uh we haven't said the exact date, but it's still in the first quarter of this year.
SPEAKER_02All right. The music is done. Okay, all right, sweet. Yeah. But it's yes, this is like for congregational singing.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Now I'm gonna say this though. The one thing that I'm trying to that I want people to that I'm trying to push on a little bit is what we think of as worship music, what we think it has to sound like. Okay, yeah. I think it needs to be filled with the word of God. I think the gospel needs to be clear, I think it needs to be singable. Um I was trying to write them in a way where, you know, here's what the production sounds like on my songs, but the structure of these songs, the melodies, the words, the chore progressions can live in different spaces. But I do think it is gonna challenge some of what people think worship music sounds like.
SPEAKER_02And um because of the style or because of the style. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think I think some of the things that we do stylistically are for good reasons, but I think there's more ways to to adhere to those principles. So if they need to be singable, I think there's more than one way to make sure things are singable and you know, easy for people to connect with right away. I think there's more than one way to do that. Um I think other music tries to do that as well. Pop music tries to do that. Sure. And so I I think there's some space for things to sound differently.
SPEAKER_02We'll see what well, I mean, it's certainly true with the global church, like all around the world. Uh I go to any number of different countries, like yeah, it sounds very different. It's true. Yeah, it's um, yeah. And so whether it's an underground house church in Asia or uh a church in sub-Saharan Africa, yes, or a church in Brazil, like those and or yeah, whatever church here in the US, like which is not all monolithic either. Yeah, but that's there's that's gonna sound very different. It's gonna it's gonna, when you're uh stepping into that context, it's gonna feel different. Like it's gonna uh and maybe even yeah, be challenging in some ways. But I love the picture of, yeah, we are a diverse body. And uh, and we that should be evident in our singing, right?
SPEAKER_03Yes, absolutely. And even if you look through church history, um yeah, even if you think about the Psalms, right? The the Psalms, the meter of the Psalms isn't even like every uh you know, they don't work like uh our songs work, where every single line has the same number of syllables. And to us, it'd be like, oh, that's not very single, but this is what their music felt like. Some of that was probably more chanty. I mean, if you look at what music looked like in different places throughout the history of the church, I think it's I think it helps us to see we don't have to have such narrow definitions, but we do need to know what it is we're trying to do when we sing together. Yes. Um and then saying, hey, do these songs help us to do that? That's interesting.
SPEAKER_02So good, man. I'm looking forward to it. Me too, huh? I I just think about our even our just our church family, where we got yeah, it's one of the things we often wrestle with with people from a hundred different countries uh and backgrounds. I mean, we've got uh yeah, I mean, when even just in our uh one of our gatherings each week is translated into Mandarin and Spanish and Korean. So with just those three backgrounds, you've got the church in South Korea, the church, uh the Mandarin speaking church, and then Latin American churches of all kinds, like that, and then that isn't even even counted for people who've come from predominantly African American churches or people who've come from liturgical, yeah, uh like high church, Anglican, whatever, and and we're all together and we're trying to figure out how to sing together. Yeah, and it doesn't feel like it's an expression of the body of Christ for us to say to most everybody there, yeah, uh, you need to learn to sing like these people over here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, and it is um, I think it's it's hard to know where those lines are when we're leading particular congregations. Um, but I do think even what's happening culturally as a whole, I do think we're kind of everyone's so connected that I think we're kind of squeezing out a lot of cultural differences and we're all there are some ways where there are more niches, but there are other ways where every it's there's some like, for instance, a small dumb example, like cultural slang, like they used to just be like, oh, that's just Atlanta slang, or that's just LA slang. Um, because of TikTok and stuff, everybody picks it up immediately. There's some ways where um there are a lot of uh traditional black churches where a lot of the songs that they sing sound more like traditional CCM music than it ever has to you. Um and that that I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing, that's just a thing. But I think that it is good for us to hold on to some cultural differences in different cultural because I was with the Geddies, Keith and Chris and Getty. Keith is always like bringing me to do something. Keith, but we're doing so different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. I think about things uh like Christmas concerts you've done where it's like one pretty consistent stream through the night of Irish Christmas and then upset Triple on the stage and just looking at people around the room, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you know, like incredible hymns that they're writing, and they do sound very Irish. What I would not want them to do is like, oh no, no, let me just take the Irish. It's like, well, no, no, no. This is a beautiful expression of the image of God in different places and different cultures, and um, and I I think some of those cultural things are what makes things make things beautiful. Now, there could be times where in particular congregations we we have to figure out how to make things work for everybody. I'm sure there's stuff y'all have talked about and thought about a lot, but I think there's a lot of value in different expressions. Yes, that's so good.
SPEAKER_02As opposed to trying to like mute all that. How can we? I mean, that's I was gonna ask that. We've not talked about this uh personally, like um, but yeah, in our church family, just to keep using that example, uh, yeah, what would be your encouragement? Because I I am thinking we obviously divide for sure into churches based on language for the most part. I mean, you're gonna primarily be involved in a church that at least I yeah, in many cases, ideally is your heart language, but at least a language you can understand. It's gonna be hard to worship if it's unintelligible. Um, but then outside of that, obviously, yeah, we live uh at least in the United States, we pretty we divide a lot into different churches based on uh yeah, ethnicity, based on political leanings. Yeah um, so and I think music's part of it, right? Yeah, yeah. Because certain, yeah, there's oftentimes certain styles that go with ethnicity, for example. Yeah. That um, yeah, that we're like, I don't want to go there because it doesn't I like the music better over here. Like what do you what do you think about that? And and what would you say like to I mean I I hear you saying, no, we need to make sure not to mute that. So is it possible to be in a church where that you're experiencing authentic expressions of different not just ethnicity, but just different yeah, different Christians.
SPEAKER_03Uh I um I d I don't want to say that everyone I I think particular communities in particular situations have to think about how are we all worshiping together. So I don't want to say anything blanket for people who have people from all different places. I don't want to say because then there are very difficult things where people will choose, let's do one song from each culture every week, and that feels untenable. It's just that there are things that are difficult about it. I think there are principles we're trying to pay attention to, people we want to feel loved and welcomed and trying to worship from sincere places. In terms of the person looking for a church and thinking where they can worship. Because I think if we are completely unwilling to do that, then we are going to just remain very segregated. And surely what we're gathering around is not our particular cultural taste. What we're gathering around is a savior who, when lifted up, draws all men to himself. And I think you are looking for a church that preaches the gospel of Jesus, where you can gather around the gospel of Jesus with others, disciple others, help others disciple you, link arms to take the gospel to the nations. That's what we're looking for in a church. And there are some preferences within that. There are some things that are easier or harder within that. There are things that you're gonna have to think through like, hey, this is not my natural this is not like me naturally, uh music-wise. Can I still worship Jesus sincerely? And is the other stuff I'm here for worth me making that sacrifice? When I when I was in DC at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, I had just come from an urban church plant. Now I'm there and there's not a drum in sight. Um and uh and there are obvious cultural well where Marcus also like, well, no one likes his music, so it's not just you. Um but you know what I had to think through was okay, how am I worshiping God honestly with the stuff that we have? And there's stuff that I really learned to really appreciate about these hymns that I think has impacted how I think about music in the church. Um, but it wasn't like I turned my brain off while the music was on. I was like, all right, I'm just here for the preaching, so I'm gonna sit through this. It was like, no, I'm I'm gathering with my family in Jesus. Let's go before the throne and worship Jesus together. Let's sing this truth to one another. Um, and you know, let's be willing to make sacrifices where we can. Um so I I I don't want us to think of the churches we're we're joining as I don't want us to put a list of our preferences and just figure out how many of them they check off. Or want us to think, what's the main thing that we're doing here? And then where there's some things that would be a little easier or that would fit a little better, how do we factor that into what God is calling us to do?
SPEAKER_02So good. I would I would even say like it's there probably should be somewhere on if you were to make a list of preferences where you're yielding. Absolutely where you're intentionally, this is part of what it means to be a part of the body of Christ. If it's like I'm just checking off my preferences, then uh I'm missing something. I mean, that's what I think about Romans 15. Just uh yeah, welcome one another and uh yield to each other and experience this uh a depth of unity that's there. That's actually not a unity around preferences. It is now even more authentically, I think, a unity around Jesus because we've made sure we've made clear it's not because I prefer all the things here. And we and the other thing I would add is we I do think we have to be careful, uh, particularly leaders in churches, but um, yeah, members in churches, to make sure that uh we are not checking off our preferences and then asking everybody else to yield to our preferences, to where particular groups always have to do the yielding. Amen.
SPEAKER_03Amen. I think that can be one of the difficult things about multi-ethnic churches is so often it is So often it'll be um Um primarily white leadership with other cultures submitting to their cultural preferences. So I think what's really important about what you said is um this is all of us yielding to one another and figuring out how to worship Jesus all together. That's good.
SPEAKER_02I yeah. Our other lead pastor, Mike Kelsey, he the way he put it at one point was he just said it it's just so helpful for me to hear him say this. He's like, uh sometimes I feel like uh this is a bed and breakfast. Like I'm welcome here, uh get to eat the food, yeah, sleep here, but it's not like it's not my pictures on the walls. I had the the the meal, I really don't, I'm not speaking into what's being served. It's just and so there's a lot of yielding, it's less home. And so, how how can to the extent with which it's possible to make sure this is home for every brother and sister in Christ?
SPEAKER_00That's so good.
SPEAKER_03And I think when everyone is yielding, even some of the stuff that's just sacrificing, it doesn't feel like they're just asking me to just swallow this. It's like all of us are yielding in different places so that we can worship Jesus.
SPEAKER_02And we're growing in that. I mean, I love you talking about CHBC, like, yes, I mean, the way you're yielding in that sense, but it led to a richness of okay, I can appreciate these in a particular way. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03I do think when we think about our church experience that way too, even stuff beyond what's happening on Sunday morning, um uh putting ourselves in situations where everything's not our exact preference also helps us to be following Jesus alongside people who don't agree with us in other areas. So I think, you know, even some of the political disagreement around Christians, I think sometimes it's I've talked to brothers and sisters who I'm like, you have no imagination for anybody ever coming to a different decision than you have with sensitive motives. And I think it's because you've never done life with anybody who has any different cultural preferences than you, um, or who would potentially come to a different decision. Um you can have disagreements and still be like, oh, but I see how you got there. Yes. Um and let's talk through that. But I think when every area of our life is like all of my cultural preferences are right the same line up, then I think we miss out on opportunities to learn from other people. Yes. And learn where we're wrong. Um the question isn't are you wrong about anything? It's like, do you know where you're wrong? Is there anybody who could ever show you that? Yeah. I'm like, the only time I ever see anybody who disagrees with me is when we're having an argument. Well, I think that's that's probably not a good way to grow.
SPEAKER_02That's so good. I think about uh because uh Mike, when he said that about Bread and Breakfast, he said, I I feel that most when issues of justice are at the fore. Because it's like, okay, this is not this is a menu that talks about particular issues, avo avoids other issues. But then I think about I I've got a in my picture right in my mind right now, a picture of sitting around the table not long ago with with some different leaders in our church uh talking about immigration, like total hot button issue. And and there's immigrants that are on the table, there's people from a variety of different perspectives around the table, and we all got our Bibles open and we're talking about it, but we are not agreeing. There's passionate disagreement happening at the table to with tears at points, uh, and very deeply personal. Um and at the same time, like we are legit brothers and sisters in Christ and joyfully walking away from that table with our arms around each other, just like this is we get to be that we are worshiping Jesus together.
SPEAKER_03And if God's people can't model that, then I don't know. You know, if if if we're as unwilling to have hard conversations, um yeah, I I would love God's people to be able to late so with advocates to be modeled. It's good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I want to jump off of what you kind of said. Uh it's not am I wrong, but where am I wrong? Where can I look more like Jesus? And it sounds a lot like discipleship. And I want to kind of get your thoughts on like using music as an avenue to disciple other people. I just think back to when I was in high school, I played basketball all all growing up, and yeah, uh, rap was like a big thing. Like no one questioned it. Yeah, we just listened to it. It was it was like oozy, like all this stuff like going in my mind, and that was discipling me in a way to think about what were my desires? What is like you said earlier, like this is boastful music. Yeah, yeah. Um, and it's just like hearing that I think was shaping me in ways that I didn't understand. I mean, I was, you know, in high school, like when you started your rap career, that's like the the time in which I was listening to rap. Um, what are ways that, you know, Christians can use music to disciple others? And also, you know, on top of that, like how have you seen rap, Christian rap, or also worldly rap shape the minds and hearts of of Christians and believers who, you know, they might be saying, like, I want to listen to things that honor God, but they also are still attached to things that are speaking and boasting about things that totally dishonor the Lord.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. One thing I would say is um music is really powerful. Um and I think there's a reason why God is telling us to sing, right? God, um there's uh in some prior cultures, like I think sometimes we think uh something with song like that that means it's there's a little less gravity to it. Prior cultures, before written cultures, they would sometimes put their most important things in song form because it would be more memorable. This is so important that we need to remember it. Music has access to our soul, our entire person in ways that sometimes just spoken word doesn't. There's a reason on the other side of the Red Sea, they sing a song. It wasn't enough. They sing songs together, like it is um special. We have a whole songbook in our Bible. Like, obviously, music is important. Um, and I think that we should be aware of that power as believers. Um, you know, I can think of so many people who have said to me uh over and over again, now that it's you know, my first album came out in 2006, people like, oh, I grew up listening to you. And I'm like, don't say that to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're old, man.
SPEAKER_03Um now, but people who said the way that I was introduced to any of these theological categories was through y'all's music. Um people saying, Oh man, your song, Good Thing about uh you and your wife. We played that at my wedding. Uh oh, your song Sweet Victory. I was going through this health challenge. It gave me a hope in the midst of difficulty, or I was gonna take my life. I listened to this song about the goodness of Jesus that made me not do that. Um music is really, really powerful. Storytelling is powerful. Um, even more so in music forum. I mean, you think about the number of times someone asks Jesus a regular question, and he's like, There was once a man, you know what I mean? Like there's something about storytelling and things being artful that just has a deep impact on our souls. And I would encourage us to be very aware of that. I'll encourage parents to be aware of that ash, um, you know, and their kids and that. But I would encourage us to as well. It does shape our worldviews. Even, you know, my dad used to try to get me to not listen to certain kind of stuff when I was growing up. And I was like, dad, I'm not gonna shoot anybody. But what I didn't realize is how much, like you're saying, my worldviews were being shaped by the people I admired most. Um, and to this day, when I think about what I personally listen to, one of the things it starts with is understanding myself and what kinds of things are gonna impact me in good or bad ways. There's this TV show um that I'll leave nameless that so many people have watched, and I feel like I'm the only person in the entire world. My goal is not to tell you you've made horrible decisions, but I can't see me watching that uh and it not having a bad effect on me. And I, someone who loves art, that her stings a little bit. I'm like, I don't experience this one of the greatest TV shows art, but I'm like I I I I would rather miss out on this show than it do any damage to my soul. Um and I think I think sometimes we want to draw really hard lines with that with art. Um sometimes I'm beyond certain things that are obviously beyond the pale. There's some things where I'm like, you have to know yourself well and you have to have people around you that know you well, and you have to be willing to let go of stuff that's actually not good for your soul. There was a season for me where I listened to no um, no mainstream hip hop when I was a teenager. And though I'm not telling people that's exactly what they have to do, it was very good for me in that season. Um, especially in a season where I was there was a little battle going on in my soul with what my values were. Um, it was very helpful for all of the music that I was listening to to be um pouring fuel on the values that Jesus was calling me to take on. So I think um we have to know ourselves and and think carefully about that. Um, it's okay to miss out on some good art if it's for the sake of your soul.
SPEAKER_02Bro, that is gold. That's so helpful. Like not like, yeah, here's a a line drawn that scripture doesn't like directly draw, but uh so I mean I'm hearing you say so there's wisdom here, application of God's word. But for I I heard you saying, like, for you to really, yeah, know your yourself, yeah, to really intentionally think through how this is influencing you. I just think don't be conformed to the pattern of this world, be transformed by the renewing your mind. It's so easy to be conformed. Yes. Uh and we're gonna be discipled. I what I just like we're either gonna be discipled by the world or by the word, one of the two. But if we're gonna be discipled, so to be intentional in that, and I heard you saying, like, involve others in that, help others. You we we don't know ourselves well. We need other people who know us also to speak into our lives and help us see. Hey, do you see these things I'm listening to? Yeah, do you see them yeah, leading me toward Jesus or away from Jesus?
SPEAKER_03Sometimes being like, hey, I think this is fine, but what do you what do you think? Am I like that's a good that's a good place to be? Like, hey, I think this is fine, but am I am I tripping? Like, is this do you think this is the number of times where I have redirected something I was doing because I was like, hey, I think this is fine, but let me know what you think. Like, well, actually, I think um Yeah, I I think it's a good posture. That's so good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I want to ask kind of a question about you spent some time as a pastor. How how long were you a pastor? A few years? I was pastoring for uh 10 years. 10 years, yeah. Yeah, what was it like in that time? Like, were you still passionate about music? Were you still making music at that time? And also, like, how how did how did that that season, that 10 years of being a pastor, how has that shaped your music now? Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_03Um sorry for all the questions. No, no, no, no, that's good. Um what was the first question? Uh oh no, no, yes. I was still passionate about music, yes. And I was still making music for most of that time. Okay. There were seasons where I took off from music. Um people always called me crazy for doing that. Um for pastoring. Yeah, to to like take time off music for that. You know, the time when your career is doing this, it's not a good time to um, but man, I just uh it felt very clear to me that faithfulness for me in that season looked like shepherding God's people. Um But yeah, I mean I I I remain passionate about it all the way through. I think pastoring did impact me as an artist too. I I feel like it um when you pastor, I think one of the things people, I think people think of pastoral responsibilities and tasks. They don't think about um the number of conversations you have with people. They don't think about the bearing of other people's burdens. They don't think about what it means to like be right in the middle of a very messy community and to know all the stuff that's going on. One of the things that did for me is it made me a more compassionate person. Um it made me more urgent about what we were up against. Um and that impacted the way that I wrote songs. Um, I think being a songwriter helped me to be a better preacher for sure. I think I spent my entire life trying to say big things in easy ways. I think that helped me as a preacher. Um, yeah, and so I I my time pastoring only stopped because of my health. Really, I have an illness that I've had for a long time that just makes um makes the demands, the energy demands of pastoring hard on me. Um uh and so I at this in this season of my life I'm not pastoring. It's not saying I never will again, but I don't think it's most fake for me to do now. But it has shaped me in ways that um that yeah are are almost impossible to describe. But I think I understand people better. I think I love people more, um, and it just makes me think carefully about what people need and how I can use my art to help point people to it. So good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think there's something there too that's just uh applicable across so many like God's call on your life, God's that that sometimes is fluid, like it uh and stewardship of God's grace in this moment looks different than stewardship of God's grace in that moment. Absolutely and uh and it's wise to walk through yeah, this life with brothers and sisters in Christ alongside you, helping you discern in this season of my life what is what is faithfulness look like. Yeah. And I love that. Like even people saying you shouldn't be doing this because it's gonna yeah, hurt the rise of but I mean, I just think first Corinthians 4, 1 and 2, what's required of us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God that we be found faithful. So faithfulness may not, yeah, it may not look like what the world says is success.
SPEAKER_03And then even sometimes with pastoring, one of the things that was hard about saying, I think I'm not gonna pastor right now is most people who think about themselves pastoring, they're like, Oh, here's the start of this thing that I'm gonna just keep doing forever and ever. And it can feel like failure to be like, Well, I don't think I'm gonna continue to do that. Um but we have to be open-handed enough to say, God, how can I be most faithful to you in this season? Yes. Which can be a hard thing to do. Um Yeah, and maybe a way that we need to sometimes correct a little bit the way that we think about calling. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Along, I mean, you you mentioned, yeah, just physical health and uh well, one, I'm just thankful. I think about whenever I think about sweet victory or uh a number of things you've written and the way you've preached. I just think 2 Corinthians 1 just got comfort in your life, overflowing in comfort for a lot of other people. So thank you, brother, for uh the way you've helped a lot of people walk through uh out of the overflow, uh walk through pain, yeah, challenge, hardship, or the overflow out of the overflow of God's grace in your life. Yeah. I appreciate that. Uh anything along those lines, just as God yeah, you're still on this journey, still walking through the struggle, yeah, um, that the Lord is doing in your own heart in a second Corinthians one way that you'd pass on to us, or just I think um for somebody like me who uh is ambitious and always has vision for lots of stuff, what can be hard is not being able to say, okay, so I'm gonna do this, which will lead to this and this, this, and this.
SPEAKER_03It is very um, it's very humbling to not be able to say, Oh, here's my vision, and with the strength I have, I'm in an A, B, C. Um God has I think we have kind of this illusion that yeah, we're not in control of everything, but we can really plan out our life. And if we do the stuff we're supposed to do, then it's gonna go from this to this to this. Um, and what God has done with my illness is he's kind of taken that delusion away from me. I can be faithful to God in particular moments, and I can pray for where I would like things to go, and I can be faithful with each step after step after step, but I do not know the future. I mean, think of James 4 where it's like man says, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna do this business in this day, in this way, and I'm gonna make this much. And he's like, You fool. Your life is a vapor, it could be demanded of you in the next minute. He's not saying don't plan, but he's saying don't act as if the entire world is in your hands. Make your plans with an open hand, looking to be faithful to God and saying, if the Lord wills, this or that way. But I think one of the things that's happened with my health is it has forced me to live with that phrase on my lips, Lord willing. It's in God's hands. And here's how I'm gonna try to be faithful, and I'm gonna trust God with everything. Um, and I would encourage us to, whether our weakness is really clear to us in the season or not, to fight to have that Lord willing perspective on everything that we're doing. Because there's sometimes when we're more anxious or worried about a thing because we think it is the key to things going well for us because we've mapped out this plan. If we're like, well, no, no, but if this doesn't happen, then how am I gonna get to this? When God is saying, I who you that was you, like you came up with this thing. Yes. Um think about what does faithfulness look like in this particular season.
SPEAKER_02Plan, but plan with an open hand, and um with the with the Lord's will and uh and yeah, obviously implied in that, but just to make really explicit, yeah, yeah. The Lord's will, I mean, this is a God who is sovereign over every detail and who is infinitely trustworthy and infinitely good and infinitely wise and always, always working for the good of his people. And so that that that doesn't have to be a reluctant yeah, okay, if the Lord wills, but I I glad, if the Lord wills, even in the hard, right? Like, but I I trust, I trust you um that you're working this together for good that I yeah, far beyond what I can see even.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think sometimes we think we have to like wrestle good things out of God's hands. And it's like, oh no, no, no, no. He's he's really excited to do good things for his evil.
SPEAKER_02Like that's uh even the text that I'm I was about to say, man, do it give give us a little uh I know you're about to preach soon on the extravagant generosity of God, so give it give us a a taste.
SPEAKER_03Well, part of it is um you know, the part where he says, you know, which one of you, if your son asks you for uh some bread is gonna give him a stone, or which one of you, if your son asks for a fish, it's gonna give him a snake. Even you who are evil know how to give good gifts to your son, how much more your father in heaven, you know, would give good gifts to his children. Um, to me, I think even sometimes when I think about my My own prayer life and how often I go to God with things. I think it is shaped in part by how generous I see God as. You know, if you like invite somebody over, like, oh, and they say no. And you ask them again and they say no, it's like I'm not even inviting you anymore because you don't seem like this is something you're into. And I think when we don't get the answers we want to, sometimes we forget how generous God is, but that Jesus is not saying God will give you everything you ask for. He's saying God delights to give good things to his children. And just because we point at a stone and call it bread doesn't mean that God's going to give it to us so that we bite it and chew it and harm ourselves. Um, so that even some of the things that God withholds from us is an expression of his generosity. There are times when if he gave us what we asked for, that would be harm. But instead, he gives us something much better. And so we have to trust God's character. So even with some of the Lord willing stuff, it's like, oh, this is what I want, because it seems clearest and best to me. And God is saying, Trust me, I know much more than you do. You think that's what's best for you. Yes. You don't see this, you don't see this, you don't see this. Um, and Tim Keller said, I'm not gonna say it perfectly, but he said, When we pray, God answers the prayer we would have prayed. He gives us what we would have asked for if we knew everything that he knew.
SPEAKER_02So good.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, Yes, I have to keep God's knowledge, but um, and it's not like God, just please let me wrestle the good things out of hand. Yeah, no, no, yes. That's what I'm excited to give you. So come ask me. I have it, it's ready for you.
SPEAKER_02The psalmist talks about he's eager to show mercy to us. It's it's not yes, he's not reluctant. He's yeah, extravagant.
SPEAKER_00Sorry, I'm so encouraged by your humility. Like, seriously, just like hearing your life story and just how even when you know the fame and the popularity starts picking up, you take a step back because you're feeling called to what the Lord has for you. Like, even just the fact that like you said, like people were questioning, well, why are you pastoring? It's like you were never in it for the fame, you know, the money or whatever. You're in it to follow Jesus. And so I I'm just thankful for your obedience in that.
SPEAKER_02And is is that a a yeah, a battle for you? Yeah. Humility?
SPEAKER_03Sure, sure, yeah. I think um, I think I the interesting thing about like doing what I've been doing for so long is there'll be some ways where I'm like, oh, I never I this was never what I was doing this for, but there are ways that you get accustomed to how people treat you when they see you as special. And there will be times when it's like, oh, I didn't get the same special treatment, and it's like that's that's not what we were doing. Um and another way to guard my heart, I've told myself for a very long time, people still care about what I'm doing and they have for a long time. One day nobody will care about what I'm doing. Um, and if I haven't prepared my heart for that, um, if I'm not like guarding my heart against, even if that's not something that you sought out, and this haven't in anything, a pastoral ministry can happen with leadership and you know, it can happen with being president, student council, anything. Then once you're accustomed to certain kinds of things, your heart can attach it, attach itself to it. Um, and begin to think of that as part of the thing that leads to your joy and leads to your peace and that you must have. Um, and so one of the fights for me is like um being liked by people as a public figure is not key to my peace or my joy. That's not the reason that I have peace and joy, that's not the reason that God has blessed me. It's the way that God has used for things to, for me to be used by God in the world. But in the same way that God used a um a random teenager from Dallas to do incredible things, which doesn't seem like how you'd use it. God can do his work however he decides. He can do it with me on stages or me in obscurity, but he wants glory for his name. I trust him with how he's gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02So good. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So good, bro.
SPEAKER_00We could just sit here forever. Um I I have one kind of final question if that's great. Um for the young, creative, young artist, rapper, painter, whatever the art form is, who might be kind of hearing everything that you're saying, but still feeling this pride bubbling up, feeling like they want to create for the praise of man. Could you give them like an exhortation, like encouragement to like remind them that the the true satisfaction is found in Christ and doing this for him?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um I will say is harder than ever. Uh it's harder than ever to fight the desire for fame. I mean, we have built our culture in a way where everybody is their own PR agency. Um where it feels almost strange to people if you don't spend much of your day presenting a version of yourself for the world for a literal instant we like you or not. Um that's crazy. And so then when that begins, when you're doing art, and part of your job will be for people to pay attention. I think that's one of the strangest things about being a Christian public figure is part of my job is to make sure people are paying attention to me, which is just strange. I don't think fame is wrong. I think about 1 Corinthians where Paul is like, oh, and we're bringing the brother who's famous for his preaching. Um, people being well known for me and good at things, nothing wrong with that. But it's very difficult to not turn that into the thing, especially if you begin to think, no, how I know I'm being faithful is more eyes on me. That is false. Do not believe the lie that whatever gets more eyes on you is a thing that is faithful. That is not true. So there are some ways to get eyes on you that are unfaithful and it will steer you further away from what Jesus has called you to. Um, so I would encourage us not to believe that lie. Um, and then I would encourage us to I'm even thinking about this with my kids, because um being famous is more of like a thing kids aspire to than ever. I think because um, you know, more than ever, sometimes people are famous just because they're good at being famous. Um but fame, a lot of people knowing you as a byproduct of something you do well, that's not a goal to seek. You know, so like everybody knows LeBron James because he's really good at basketball. It's not because he was trying to be famous, he was trying to get good at basketball. Um, and so if you're making art, I want to encourage you to try to be great at art and see if the fame comes as a byproduct, not as something to desire and seek. So figure out, okay, why do I want to do this creative thing? How does it fit into what God has called me to do in the world and let me try to excel at that? You know, for people doing music, one of the things that was helpful for me was if I just wanted to say good things about Jesus, I could just talk. But if I'm making songs, then I want to make great songs. So it's not enough for me to make mediocre music that says good things about Jesus, then I'll just talk to people. If I want to make art and I'm created by the most amazing creator of all time, if every creator who's ever come up with anything is really the biggest influence, is God Himself. If you are a painter that likes to paint sunsets, my Lord made that. If you're a songwriter who likes to write about romantic love, my Lord came up with that. Um if that's the case, and I'm a son of that God, then I'm like, I I actually want to create excellent things. I want to point to how incredible of a creator he is. Um, God seems to value beauty. It seems like not only a good message, but also beauty itself. Zebras didn't have to look all beautiful and black and white striped. God did that. You know what I mean? Like food didn't have to taste delicious, it could just fuel us. God did that. There's value there. And so I would encourage artists to value the beauty, to think about um how making beautiful things enriches people's lives, points to the glory of God, and then to really drill in down on that. Try to have others around you that not only help you be faithful to Jesus, but help you to get great at the art that you want to do. Um and then trust God with the rest. Because the fame, this is the last thing I'll say. The fame stuff is so fickle, man. It's so fickle. Yeah. Um, and people spend their lives chasing it and then they get it, and then it's gone. I mean, we all have seen people get famous overnight and then some random thing people turn on them and everyone hates you. And it's like, yeah, it's just not a good thing to build your life on. Even some of these content creators who are like, yeah, it was fun until if I didn't post a viral video every week, it seemed like my entire life worth and value is based on that. That's just not a good thing to build your life on. It can't, it won't last. Will Smith, most famous person in the world, it's not automatic blockbusters anymore. That's fine. That's not who he is as a person. That's something that he was able to do. Um, and so I think we just want to, you know, have those lines drawn clearly. Fame is not strong enough to build your life on. It will crumble. Um, most of us won't even achieve it, but even those who do, it's just a matter of time. So let's go.
SPEAKER_02We are bro. I uh in just a second, I I want to ask you to pray over just every person who's listening to this. But before that, I just want to uh praise God for his grace in you, honor God's grace in you. As you're talking, what's come to my mind is the two great commandments. They're like the guard against all this. But if they I see them evident in your life. Loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. I'd see, yes. Lord, I want to be faithful to you if that's pastoring, if that's creating a hip-hop album, if that's creating a worship album, then I don't know what people are gonna think about. Like, I want to be faithful to you. I'm I really, yeah. I want to honor, glorify you. And love your neighbor as yourself. Like, as I'm listening to your talk, I think, yeah, you want to create great music that's gonna edify people, that's gonna help point people to Jesus, that's gonna uh yeah, you want to create great worship music that's gonna help congregations glorify Jesus. Like that's where creating art, there's a way to do it selflessly, and there's a way to do it selfishly, like for my own fame, or no, for the edification of a lot of people. And that's that's actually a good ambition to want to be faithful to God first and foremost and loving toward others by creating beautiful things. Yeah, bro. Thank you for beautiful things you've created that uh edify many have edified me, Austin. Yes, uh, yeah, so many. And uh yeah, so man, I just pray that those those two great commandments would continue to mark your life in ever increasing ways. Thanks so much. Would you pray over? Just I just one of the things we love about podcasts, right? Is just like different people to listen to this at different stages in their life. This might be a simple encouragement, yeah, or it might be a life-altering I had not thought about that, and this shapes things. So would you just pray over people who listen to this?
SPEAKER_03Father, we come before you in Jesus' name. Um Father, we come before you in Jesus' name because he's how we have access to you. Father, we know that there is no um, there's no amount of fame, there's no amount of universal acceptance that is more precious than being accepted in the presence of you. Father, we thank you that we can come before you and we know you hear us. Thank you, God. Um, and we thank you for the ways that you've promised to respond with love and grace and good gifts. Uh God, we pray for everybody who's listening. God, we don't know exactly where everybody is, but you do. Father, we know that there are some people who have had particular questions or doubts or distractions that you and your grace drove them to listen to this episode at this time. Um, and Father, we thank you for being such a meticulous, um, particular, um, sovereign, gracious, thoughtful, intentional God. God, we pray that um things that people heard that were challenging or that were encouraging, Father, we pray that you would help them to find ways um not to have that challenge or encouragement drift off as soon as they are done listening to this podcast, but you would press it in on it on their hearts. Father, that your Holy Spirit would bring it to remembrance. God, that you would bring in the passages that remind them, that you would have them have conversations that remind them, God, and they'd be able to be faithful to you in the world. You know, Father, I pray for that person listening who is um who is feeling uh insecure and shameful um and like they're not good enough. Uh disciples, uh, Father, we pray that you would remind them that the same thing that got them into the family, that same cross is the same one we turn to day after day after day. And then when we come to you, we don't see a father with his arms folded, but a father with his arms open wide. God, Father, we pray that's the picture you would give them and that they would fall at your feet day after day after day. We thank you for the cross, we thank you for the resurrection, and we thank you for the opportunity to live in light of it. We ask in Jesus' name. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Everyday Radical. We pray that it encouraged you in many ways. We do this every single week, so be sure to subscribe or follow to not miss the next episode. We'll see you then.