Ex-Battle Rapper Opens Up About Church Hurt, Creativity, and Identity

 In this episode of Everyday Radical, David Platt and Austin Huang talk with Thomas Terry about what it means to create from security in Christ.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Everyday Radical, a podcast where we help the everyday Christian follow Jesus and make him known everywhere. We pray that today's episode encourages you to do just that. So let's dive right in. Thomas, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, man. Such a pleasure. Uh, I think creativity is something that we haven't talked about really at all on the podcast yet. And so I would love to just like jump off the deep end and and start asking you about your testimony. How how did you how does creativity shape the way that you view God, chase after God, follow God? We just love to give the audience kind of a taste of of your life.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Yeah, so I'll um I'll talk about how the Lord found me and the context by which he found me. Uh, I was born into a very ugly world. Um abusive father um was abusive to my mom, abusive to me and my brothers. Uh when I was eight years old, he was shot and killed. Um and so I saw the ugliness of death. And uh my mom remarried another man, he was equally abusive. Um so by the time I was 12 years old, I uh just kind of looked at life uh the world around me as if it was just nothing but ugly. Um and then um when I turned 18, well, so when I was 12 years old, it was the first time I started exploring like music, hip-hop, uh, so it was pretty grimy, you know. I uh used um hip-hop as a way to um connect with um other men, used hip hop as a means for finding validation and affirmation, which of course only happens when you're like the best. And so you start to explore championing your art form so that people will accept you and embrace you, and um and all of that was just longing. Um when I was 18 years old there was a friend of my mom's, and um, her name was Elaine, and she had heard from my mom, who no none of them were Christians, but this woman Elaine was a Christian. She had um heard from my mom about my very ugly world, and she invited me on a picnic. And so she she was like 35, she was kind of upper class, um, really sweet lady. Uh, and I was 18 and I thought that this was maybe kind of like a date. You know, I didn't know what to expect. And she invites me on a picnic and she sits me down, and for the first time she unfolds the beauty of Jesus. Um, and she did it in such a way where she spoke primarily of the love of the Father who would send Jesus to die for my sins and make everything that was broken and twisted in my world um beautiful and and glorious. And uh so here I am at this picnic with this wonderful woman, and I'm just compelled by the beauty of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

Is this the first time you ever would have heard the gospel?

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah, at least that clearly. I mean, I had heard some things from some people, but was never really clear to me. But this was for whatever reason the first time the Lord opened my eyes um and my defenses were laid down. Um, and from there, moving forward, where the Lord just began to yeah, make beautiful things from all that was broken in my life. Um, and I think the juxtaposition of my life before, and God like redeeming everything and giving me new eyes to see, just first and foremost, um, his beauty has just given me eyes to see beauty and creativity and everything around me. Um, and so now my life is just like all I see is beautiful things. Um, so that's how I kind of um yeah, was introduced to creativity and beauty and things of that nature.

SPEAKER_03 4:38

That's amazing. Wow. There's so much there, man. Like, so yeah, that that transformation, it was pretty was it pretty stark at 18? Or was that like okay, that started a pretty gradual. I mean, obviously, there's a lot that's gradually happened since then. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

I mean, I would say it was stark in terms of my appetite to explore Jesus. Um, I wouldn't say that in that moment I made a a declaration of Jesus as Lord and Savior, but it was in that moment where things began to crystallize for me where I saw uh, like, man, this is this is overwhelming um and altogether satisfying to I want to figure this out. And so um she invited me to her church, and I just began with curious eyes, um, attending this you know charismatic church. And um, yeah, the people were lovely. Um it was uh in in one sense, God used the church to provide the affirmation that I was like longing for, which we're naturally longing for connection and community. I found it in the church by way of Elaine introducing me to the church and bringing me to it. And I would say it was probably six months to six to nine months where my heart bent before Jesus. And then I I would say I was kind of trying to figure that out. And so it was a long road of sanctification, but um, every six months I was um better than I was six months before. And the Lord was m making me new. So for some people it's instantaneous, but I think my world was so broken that there was a lot of pieces that needed to slowly get put back together. Um yeah. So But man, and did uh just d did you keep in touch with Elaine? I'm still in touch with Olaya. Yeah, it's awesome. We don't speak as often as I would like to. Uh but I'm infinitely grateful. Yes. Yeah. And I think this is this is massive, and a lot of folks don't understand this. Uh, you know, so I've been now a Christian longer than I've not been a Christian. And in most spaces, they emphasize you know, in order to be effective, you have to like engage the culture. You have to know the culture or contextualize. And this is just that's just so bogus. This woman was nothing to me. Yeah, we didn't come from the same background. She was an upper class woman, obviously lower class. She knew nothing about hip hop and uh the brokenness of my world, and she invited me on a picnic. She didn't try to meet me in like streets.

SPEAKER_03 7:34

She's like, you don't do a lot of picnics. Yeah, that's a point.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Testifies uh that it's God's work, and he uses ordinary means to draw people to him. So good. Yeah. And uh yeah, and and strangely, it was exactly what I needed beauty, you know? Yeah. So she would have met me in the grimy streets, or if it was some other cat that was yeah, I just God was just so infinitely kind.

SPEAKER_03 8:00

I love that. What a great takeaway. For anybody listening to this who's like, okay, yeah, hip-hop's not my thing. It wasn't Elaine's thing, and she's had a massive definitely not Elaine's thing. By God's grace, and you're not just your life, but then all the fruit of your life that like would yeah, has come through that is is continually coming through that. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Yeah, and so in that time that you're finding your relationship with God, was hip hop still this thing? Were you wrestling with like one foot in, one foot out? What was it, what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, that was quite challenging for me, to be honest. Um, the so all yeah, the church that I became a part of, um, the church where I where the Lord had saved me in, their perspective of hip hop was negative. And I can understand why, you know. And I remember clearly sitting with a couple of the pastors, and they they told me, you know, you can't really do that devil music, you know, anymore. And, you know, as a young Christian trying to figure things out, I'm like, well, yo, I don't, I'm not trying to do devil music. So I I think while my world was becoming bigger and more beautiful, the my affection for music and hip-hop began to kind of narrow down into almost nothing because I was trying to learn what it meant to be obedient and and follow Jesus. And I do think like a part of me creatively died. Um and so it wasn't until, you know, three or four years later when I began to grow as a Christian and my worldview began to kind of put some pieces together where I started to develop a longing to engage the community that I was like largely shaped by in my youth. And I do think the Lord deposited in me, you know, these unique hip-hop gifts. Um and so little by little I began to explore it in a way that was largely different than how I first was introduced to hip-hop. But I started to explore it in a way that was redemptive and in many ways evangelistic. So good. And in some ways, um in a in an apologetic way. Uh so I went from a battle rapper to a kind of truth teller, a storyteller. Um, and that process just began to become more and more refined. And through years I began to explore creativity a lot more. And yeah, so that was a rough start, but I think I a beautiful finish, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

You know, when uh uh that transformation or redemptive, I just love all the way you put that. That was gold. I just I I'd love to, yeah, just kind of pull out of you. What are some of the when you think about hip-hop viewed just from the pattern of this world or hip-hop viewed from a transformed mind? Yeah. Uh more of redemptive, Christ-centered, God-exalting picture. What are some of the uh major differences or what are some of the foundations or anchors that separate? Yeah, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

You know, as a 12-year-old, uh, which is when I first started listening to hip hop and exploring it, I learned manhood, which is you know womanizing, it's uh, you know, being the baddest, being the grimiest, being the most aggressive, fight for your place in this world. I learned everything about um love, which was very distorted, conquest, uh, sexual exploration, sexual exploitation. I learned everything about like even um camaraderie, which was very superficial and thin. Um I learned about acceptance, which was, you know, in many ways kind of anti-gospel, like you perform well enough and we will accept you. And you know, these things have a way of crystallizing your worldview. And so when I first became a Christian, it wasn't simply just um, you know, trying to be a good Christian. It was decoupling from all of my false ideas about what it meant to be a man, what it meant to love, what it meant to have good friendship, what it meant to be um humble, submissive, all these things. And uh God's word has a way of little by little um reframing your presuppositions concerning manhood, and it gives you a proper framework for what a real man um is to look like. Of course, we see this um in its most excellent expression in the life of Jesus. Um, what it looks like to be a good friend, well, um, no greater friend than someone that would lay his life down for his friends. Um, you know, what what is love? Well, obviously laying your life down for your friends, that's the greatest expression of love. Uh service, uh all these things. The God's word began to reshape me and recalibrate me and build a proper worldview. But that was hard.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

You know, that was hard. Especially when it came to I think the big things were a little bit easier, but when it came to creativity and artistry, that was very hard. Because no matter how you dice it, um, much of our artistry or creativity is about displaying and being the best that you could possibly be. Um, and so that I think was the that took years to try to figure out. And I'm I think I'm still learning.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

I'm I'm so I live in Austin, Texas, which is like known to be a very creative place. I'm friends with a lot of creatives, and it seems to me that there's this like underlying feeling amongst most of them that they don't feel like they belong, like in spaces within Christianity. Like how what would you say to someone who feels like you know they're creative and they have all these gifts, like you're saying, to display the beauty of God, the glory of God, but they just don't feel like they belong well enough in the church. Like I guess uh, you know, speak to the church and speak to them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

I think that the I think there's two things that have to be adjusted. And I'll start first with the church. Um, and this is kind of a big one, but I think the church uh for many years has learned to leverage artists as a resource primarily, not as a person. And so when you're a creative and you're in the church, immediately, and I I don't I I don't think the church does this maliciously. I think it's just they see creativity, they see good artistry, and they're like, We we want we want some of that. We love it. That's we we were made to be creative and to enjoy creative things. And so I think what happens is the church unknowingly begins to um in many ways exploit the creative. And so the creative feels like I'm not a whole person here, I'm a utility. I think that contributes to their lack of belonging. Um I think there's a remedy for that, and it's not always the remedy that I think the church thinks about. I think the remedy for helping creatives belong is to actually um not leverage their creativity at all. At first in the context of a local church. I think it's to help them become what what they really want is to feel like a part of the community. Um and I think you help them assimilate well by not exploiting their gifts, but helping them learn to be human like the rest of the congregation. So serve in the nursery, you know, if your whole world is oriented around playing the guitar, gigging for a living, and then you show up on Sunday mornings and you're just gigging again on Sunday mornings, I think that has a way of messing up their mind to where they conflate performance with service. Um, and so by inviting them into spaces that are non-creative, you're actually treating them as a whole person, not just as a creative resource. So I think that's one way where the church can begin to serve creatives well and help them feel like they belong. You're more than your art. Um now I think there's eventually a time where you can one once you've helped them find some orientation and and a sense of belonging, you can slowly help them use the gifts that God has given them for the benefit of the church because God purchased those gifts by his own life with the intention of serving God's people. But that takes time and it takes uh a full uh oriented Christian, not just a you know, a creative Christian. The other thing is that I think the creative has to learn that um the church is not the primary place for them to display all of their creativity and um showcase all of the wonderful things that they they can do. Now there's room for that, but I think many creatives enter the church um and say, like, yeah, I'm the I am like the most creative person in this space. So provide, make room for me. Right. Um, and so I think that's a very dangerous place. And I think that prevents them from actually belonging. So I I think there's this relationship between the church learning to treat the creative as a whole person, and then the creative must enter the church as a servant, not um not a church serving their creative or whimsical desires. Um, so there's some there's some repair that I think needs to be done there. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

There's a lot that's uh uh counter-cultural, counterintuitive that's there, right? Because yes, I I mean I can totally see it. The church is like, oh, you have these gifts, let's start using them. Yeah. And this person, like, oh yeah, that's who I am. So this is who I need to be in the church. Uh and I love that. I mean, it's really like disciple making. I just think about how formational this is for a church and for that person, walking through the kind of process you just outlined for that person to be like, yeah, no, this I'm in Christ as a part of this body, as a brother or sister, not as a super creative person.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Yeah. See, creative people in general. Well, let me ask you this what other person identifies themselves by what they do? Like, for example, people don't introduce themselves to the world like, hi, my name is Jack. I'm a I'm a plumber, or I'm a plumber Christian, or or whatever. But for whatever reason, creatives have a strong sense of identity in their creative work. And there's a whole that's a whole other thing we could talk about. But the the point is, creatives have a hard time relinquishing their identity as a creative and pushing into their identity as a Christian. And so the church has to help them to identify as a Christian primarily, who does creative things and is gifted for a specific purpose, not like, oh, I'm a creative. Uh, identity is huge. So both have some work to do. The creative has to learn my identity is primarily in Jesus. The church has to help them say, your identity is uh is a Christian, not a creative. But oftentimes the creative is the first, like immediately pastors sif them out, like, oh, we got a creative guy.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

This is gonna be great for the church. It's because pastors like are usually not that. It's like, oh man, yeah, it's not gonna be, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Because the church recognizes um there is value in beauty and aesthetics, and they long for that. We were made for that. And they they can't produce it on their own. They're much more didactic. Um, and so immediately they're just like, Well, you you were made for doing beautiful things. Well, let's just use you for that. I think you just gotta slow down a little bit, disciple them, make them healthy, and then little by little, um, let them use their gifts in the context of the local church.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

I love the the way that the process you're outlining and the patients involved in it, the what it produces on the other side, fundamentally, and and so the yeah, this is not it really is better all the way around. It's win-win. It's a a person who's being more fully formed into the image of Christ, finding their identity in Jesus. And out of the overflow of that identity, being free to use and to have walked through the process of how can I best glorify God as a member of the church with these unique gifts He's given me. Uh, but that That that takes time. It does.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

And what's crazy about that is um choosing that pathway for the creative, I think, makes them better Christians and better creatives. Here's what I mean by that. If you ask any creative, like, um, like, what do you what do you want to do with your art or your creativity? And they will almost always say, I want to make something that's out of this world. I want to make things that are transcendent. I want to make things that make people respond and feel and emote. And of course, the the best way to help them, the most transcendent thing you can do is be a spirit-filled Christian who's flourishing with the God of transcendence. Who looked like Jesus. Yeah, Christians uniquely have the ability to create transcendent art because they are indwelled by a transcendent God. So discipleship makes them not only healthier Christians, it makes them the best possible creatives the world has ever known.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

That's so good. I the text that's coming to my mind is 2 Corinthians 3.18, like uh beholding his glory. I'm not gonna say beauty is the exact synonym, but beholding his beauty were transformed from one degree of glory to another, from one degree of yes, in a very real sense of beauty. Yeah, from one degree of beauty to another, we're coming like Jesus. This is amazing beauty, beautiful one. Yes, yeah. That's uh it's so interesting. This is definitely not uh a rabbit trail we need to run down, but I'm even processing through how like as a pastor, especially like thinking through how it's not exactly the same, and I'm sure there are differences, but I think about the businessman who comes into the church and it's like, oh, you're really good with business. We need to get you on this team that's helping think through, and all of a sudden, like his identity, it's or his or her identity, it's it's doing some of the same thing instead of really seeing each other as brother, sister, as person whose deepest need is to be conformed to the image of Christ, and then to use whether these natural gifts or spiritual gifts that are uh uh endowed by God for his glory. Amen. Yeah, to divide ways. Yeah. You mentioned uh maybe we could talk about this a little bit more, but like creativity and identity and the the lure of conflating the two.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Um yeah, I mean I think uh the wrestle for so the wrestle is there are so many creatives that are creating for identity and not creating from identity. And if you don't figure that out, you will spend the rest of your life chasing affirmation with your creativity, and you will die a thousand deaths by every critique. And that that's a huge problem with creatives. You I see it all the time, and I I I I feel it in me. You create a beautiful artifact. Like, for example, you make a record. If you're uh an artist and you make a record, you could have a thousand people that say, Man, I really love that record. But that one review, that one review that says, eh, it's it wasn't that wasn't as good as their first record. It's like a dagger to the heart that crushes the soul. And that's because you're longing, you're you're pursuing identity rather than creating from it. There's deep satisfaction and security by knowing who you are in Jesus and being a creative over and against, hey, feed my addiction for affirmation. And many creatives are addicted to affirmation because their identity is shaken. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Well, I think too, uh, it's a fascinating thing to think. Like in the beginning, God created and he said it was good. Yeah. So he didn't he didn't create us and say, oh, what do you think? Yeah, what do you think exactly? He in the beginning, he created, he said it was good. And I think in my own life, um, I've been trading on social media for a few years now. And like I never knew if I was a creative, but like more recently, I feel like I'm stepping into that. Um, because in partially what you're saying, in the negative, I'm responding to the critique of other people. I'm working hard on a video that I made, and it's not getting the same reaction I thought it would. And so in my own flesh, I'm just like, well, I guess I'm not as good of a creative. I'm not a good enough creator. What about this person over there? So I guess in in your life, like comparison, was that something that really, especially becoming a Christian, being drawn out of this other world that you were raised in? Was comparison ever like a big thing for you? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

Is comparison yeah, continually a battle?

SPEAKER_00 26:58

It's constantly.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Uh I think that's that's not just unique to the creative. I think it's unique to everyone. Pastors do it all the time. Yeah. Moms do it all the time. That's why they scroll through Instagram and they see these mom fluencers and they are comparing their their momming with it. It's it's uh it's the residual effects of sin in our life that um creates competition rather than satisfaction and flourishing and just creating. But yeah, for so much of my life, I've been trapped um by comparison. Um I think the more I begin to pursue creativity for God's glory, the more I find satisfaction in the process rather than the reactions of people.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

And I I think there are these I think one of the most helpful things for me in the process of creating creative work or whatever was to take beats before I create and pray, God help me to find joy in what I'm creating outside of the approval of man. Um, I want to make beautiful things because you've made me this way. I want to make beautiful things to bring you glory. I want to make beautiful things that just make me um feel human, right? Um, I don't want to just make it because other people are gonna tell me how good I am or how bad I am. That's liberating. Um, and I think uh posturing yourself in deep dependence that says, Lord, protect my heart in my uh not only in uh in the artifacts that I create, but in my heart as an artist. It's freeing you.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Yes, it is still totally because it's a fight for that kind of freedom. And there's an adversary. I mean, I'm thinking about C.S. Lewis's chapter on pride and and him just saying, yeah, it's rooted in comparison. You're not proud because you did something great. You're proud because you says did something greater than somebody else. If you come along somebody who's done something greater, you're not as pride, proud anymore. Um, but then I think about 1 Corinthians 4, which is unique in the sense that Paul's talking about his stewardship as an apostle. But I do think it's helpful more of what's required of us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God, that we be found faithful. And like I think that's Paul defining success.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Success equals not uh how many churches you plant for him or this or that, but or how many records you sell, or how many, like success equals faithfulness. And uh, and then I love the way he goes on after that to say, uh, thankfully, I'm not judged based on what you say about me. And I'm not even judged about what I say about me. Like just because I feel great about it doesn't make it like I, my judge is the one who sees all, knows all. And so I want to live for what he says. And uh, and I know what he says in his word, and then I'm gonna trust like that's he, but it's nothing like some good criticism to help your heart get checked on whether or not you're living for alone. Because yeah, I think that's where, man, I am thankful for criticism, even unfair criticism that I've received in my life because it's exposed things in my heart where I, okay, that hurt a lot more than maybe I am kind of living for that in ways I didn't realize. Yeah. And that's where the freedom comes in. So whoa, the Lord is using uh that which the adversary intended for evil for some really good things that my heart needs. And I I know pastors need that. I'm supposing every creative needs that.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Um that's for sure. Yeah, that's for sure. Well, the the comparison thing, I don't know if I've ever said this publicly, but the the comparison is so deep in me, and the competition is so deep in me that it's why I no longer make music. Because I feel I feel it bubble up the more I invest in music. And I've so asked the Lord to help me, and I when I start to feel the pressure and the bubbling up of it, I just I feel like I'm losing a sense of like being faithful or I'm losing a sense of just being satisfied in in my creative contributions. And so for me, when it comes to like music, I'm I'm just safer by not making the artifacts because I'm so proud in that area and I don't like it, it's ugly, and I would rather not pursue it than then let the possibility of it uh take root in my heart. Yeah. And that's it's weird because I could do other things, but for whatever reason, when it comes to music. In this season of life, I just don't do it. Yeah. To protect my heart.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Thank you for sharing that with us. I I really think that someone hearing that might free them from the approval of man because you're a living example of taking up your cross. If this thing is pointing me back to my fleshly desires, back to a place that I don't want to be in, then I don't want anything to do with it. And so thank you for sharing that. Um, I know you're a pastor now. When did that happen? How has that journey been for you?

SPEAKER_00 32:48

Yeah, so I um I became a lay pastor in 2014 while I was touring with Beautiful Eulogy. And um as we were kind of traveling the country, we would do these shows, and after the shows, we would just come out and talk with people. And what we began to see is that man, there is a great need for pastors to shepherd a lot of these people who were coming to shows. And it began to change my my framework. I used to think, well, I could reach a whole bunch of people uh by putting out more and more records um and consistently touring, or I could actually start to just focus my attention on 80 people and give them 80 years of my life, or however many years the Lord would give me. And that began to transition something in my heart. Um and then around 2017, so I'm a I'm a lay elder in a church, and our primary preaching teaching pastor has a moral failure and the church is uh on the precipice of collapsing. Uh and the other elders in my church had asked me if because I was just a touring artist and running this, you know, ministry humble beast, they asked me, could you put that on hold and just help the church into health for a year? And I think that was probably the hardest thing for me, the best thing for me. Um because I don't know if I would have made the jump into pastoral ministry. Um I had to be thrown into by the providence of God. Um and so yeah, now I've been serving as a pastor for almost nine years as a lead preaching pastor. Uh, and I find that to be the most satisfying thing. Now, I will say that wasn't the case for the first three years. Primarily because I felt like preaching was not a very creative exercise. I found it to be constraining, didactic, you know, parsing verbs and exegetical words. You know, that's for uh that's for those dudes, uh, not for me. Um and I feel like I had to learn how to be the way God has made me as a creative in the pulpit. And see, here's where this comparison thing kicks in. Instead of me comparing myself with other artists, I began to compare myself with other preaching pastors. How do they do it? What is most effective? Like all of that stuff, and that ugliness began to bubble up. And so I I just hated that for like three years. It was like, I love the people. I wanted to serve these people and love them well, but I just preaching I just did not want to do. But I think the third year, the Lord freed me and uh I think allowed me to kind of synthesize my creativity and my affinity for storytelling and symmetry and beauty and all of that um in my declaration of the goodness of God. And so I began to learn how do I how do I function as a kind of creative pastor uh and be who God has made me to be with the people God has entrusted to me. And I think if I would have jumped into if I wouldn't have had the the kind of fighting for affirmation thing put to death, I think that would have been very dangerous for me as a pastor. Or like the kind of perform for approval. Um because in many ways, or or even like um creating for other people. I think the Lord was kind to grow me before pursuing preaching as a pastor, because now I I I'm I think I'm more creative when I preach. At least this is what my congregation tells me. Uh, but I'm not doing it to perform. I'm doing it because that what that's what God has made, that's how He's made me. So I often tell some of I'm in a I'm in a collective of other pastors um that are not like me, praise be to God. Um, and they're always asking me, like, hey, the way um you use like symmetry in your words when you're preaching, like, um, how do you like like what process do you import that in? And I'm like, I don't do that. It just naturally comes out. I have to go through the process of taking it out. Because if I don't, if I don't take it out, it could be a distraction, right? It's too much creativity. So I'm actually reverse and I'm reverse engineering some of the creative stuff, but I have found a lot of satisfaction in um using um the gifts that God has given me to serve the people God has entrusted me um in the pulpit um in a creative way. Um and I found a lot of satisfaction in doing that when I originally hated it.

SPEAKER_03 38:54

Yeah, man, there's so much there. Like I there, there were like, I don't know, in everything you said, I feel like there were like 10 takeaways. And I won't be able to, but I just want to kind of even just as people are processing and just listen to that. Like, one, there, like God's uniquely created you. You don't have to be that other pastor, and he doesn't have to be you. And similarly with any creative, you don't have to be that person that ought to be like just be content in who God's made you to be, faithful with who God's made you to be. The the fight for, I'm trying to remember the way you put it, performing for approval and fighting for affirmation. Apparently, that's for uh just about any facet of life and work. Like we're gonna, that's gonna be a battle. There's freedom in that battle that God grants that uh that we have to we need to fight for, like in any, not the fight for affirmation, but fight against that to fight for the freedom that uh God has made possible for us. I just think because this I I one place my mind was going was back to what you shared earlier that you mentioned you had not said before publicly. I just think, yeah, God, because the journey you just described is basically God giving you a freedom from that fight that you haven't felt in music. So I just think that's part of his leadership in your life. He's called you to pass through it in a way that he's not called you to create music in the same way, and he gives grace for that calling. And I just think about those who God has called to create music or to create art or whatever, he'll give that grace, but it's gotta there's a uh sanctification process to be able to be free from that. Yeah, there is a pruning in that. Yes, there's a pruning, and it's wise to not just keep going like you could have just kept creating music and just kept indulging the flesh in that sense. But there was wisdom in saying, I gotta back up. I've either gotta, either God's gonna give me grace and I've got to figure out a way to do this by his grace and this, or maybe he's given me uh call me to to something, to something else, which obviously he's done. Uh and yeah, I'm just I'm sitting here listening to you talk about preaching. Like, uh I love so maybe this would be the other um another takeaway. Uh I've always said preaching is art, but it's not fine art. And the distinction I would be, uh I just make just with the Latin fine, like it's not art as an end in and of itself. I hear you saying, if I'm not careful, I can create something, a sermon that people like, that looks that's amazing. Art as an end in and of itself, as opposed to I hear you saying, I want my sermon with all God's unique grace in me, and obviously uh his word at the center, I want it to edify. I want it to, uh, and so I want to be faithful to edify. Um, and I think that's the same with any art, music, uh, any kind of art form is that for a Christian way to produce art is not fine art. It's not art as an in and of itself, it's art that edifies, it's art that builds up followers of Jesus, it's art that points people to the beauty of God, maybe people who are far from God, to the beauty of God. So uh art as an as an a means to an end, not the end. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Uh yeah. When I read my Bible, um I can't help but be like drawn in to the beauty of God. And I don't mean that in like some superficial way, but even when you read how like how God's word, like what you trace this kind of biblical theology all the way through scripture, this is like so um creatively woven together, so so creative and so beautiful that no man could possibly do that. Yes. And the words in God's just the way the words are constructed have a way of making the Lord so beautiful. And what I want to do is just kind of show like this is what do you see it? Yes, right. This is the beauty of God for you to delight in and enjoy, and then there's something strange about there's nothing else, like even your best attempt to create the most um beautiful display of God's truth, it will fall flat and empty unless the Spirit of God attend your effort and bring it to life in the heart of a believer. That I think um is uniquely humbling. You could go through the motions, but there will be no effect unless the Spirit of God is at work. And I I love even that is beautiful. The ends are it's I can I can do nothing to produce anything, I'm just delighting in the Process of revealing and displaying God's goodness to people.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

In a 1 Corinthians 10 kind of way, that so that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of man or whatever. But on the power of God. And then clearly what just happened did not come from uh so that in preaching, then I I would love to know your thoughts on this. So because I feel that as a pastor in preaching and love that. Um I it's so it's not exactly the same because there's nothing like God's word. Um, and it's power to do that. Nothing in the world like this word. Um with someone who's creating a a piece of art, a song, uh, well, any kind of art, um, would it be accurate to say that the motivation is the same? I want to create something beautiful here. Again, it's not one-to-one with preaching, but I want to create something beautiful here that does expose something that's transcendently beautiful and and transcendently true. Even if it's not, so it may not be, it may not even be a technically Christian song, but it's filled with truth and beauty. Or I mean, I'm thinking other pieces of art that reflect that beauty. I guess there's a way to do that as a creative who's not preaching God's word, but is still trying to expose the beauty of God and the truth of God, yeah what you create.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Yeah, I mean, I think the skies do that. Yes, right. Yeah. The skies do that. And I think that uh I do think it's possible for creatives to want to achieve the same thing. I want to make something that testifies to the God who created everything in this world. I I think that should be the drive of every Christian artist. But there is something uniquely different in that um creating something that compels people upward and outward is not the same as giving them God's word. One moves you to look up and out, one changes you. Like radically changes you. And so I I mean, I've just been so compelled to put the beauty of God's word on display because that's the one thing that changes people's lives. Uh, my art, you know, you hear it all the time. Oh, your your music changed my life. Uh huh. No, it didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It might have given you a glimpse of uh beauty or uh an expression of who God is and or what he is like, but only God's word can actually change your disposition. So I want to give the rest of my life to making that thing the most beautiful thing that people are inaccurate.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah. It's it uh so maybe even I've not thought about this until now. So you correct me like legit. I'm not don't I know we're like on a podcast discussion, and it would feel kind of awkward to be like, actually, that's that that's not a healthy way to think about it. But I really am asking you, like, is because I'm I the categories in my mind like biblically are like general revelation and special revelation. The skies declare the glory of God, the work of his hands, but the skies can't save. Only God's word centered in Jesus can save. So there's ways to create art and music and many other things that display the glory of God, but that are that don't have power to save, to transform the way you're talking about. So maybe for any uh person who is uh creating things that maybe are in a general way displaying the beauty of God, to think through intentionally how at some point through their life and influence, they're pointing people to that which can save. Because this is not going to be sufficient. I mean, the reality is general revelation is sufficient to condemn. Yeah, Romans 1, all that does is show he's glorious and we've sinned against him. And if they don't have, then then actually just I mean, I'm always struck by this when I walk through the Himalayas, for example, it's God's glory on display everywhere. And these these are villages that have never heard the gospel. That means this beauty is only leading to condemnation. They've got to have the good news. So for creatives to figure out some way to make sure the special revelation, the word of God, is somewhere being communicated through their lives, through work or whatever. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

I think that's that's an excellent observation, and I think it's I think it's good for us so that we understand the limitations of our creative contribution. Um it's still lovely, it's still amazing. Yes, it still speaks to something, but it's limited. Yeah. Yeah God's word is what changes us. And so finding ways to point people to the transcendent word of God so that they might be changed. Because that's the thing. Like I I think as a as a Christian who is creative, I I don't want to just leave people with the artifact so that they look at it and they're like, oh, this is amazing. I feel a particular way about it. No, I want to leave you with truth. I want beauty to be the wheelbarrow that brings truth to you, right? So that you can find your greatest delight in God's truth and be changed by it's good. We need limits. Yeah. And the creative hates limits. No, that's good. Yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_02 49:36

Um, Thomas, on on that topic of kind of what you brought it up of not doing it for God, but from God. I think also with that, I was just thinking, kind of reflecting on what all that you've said is like you have found joy in the process. So I think on top of that, it's it's with God. It's from God and with God. I I think of uh one of my friends, she's a very talented artist, and she creates all of her paintings with God. And it's so clear because it it is that truth on display and the beauty that that points whoever's viewing it to see beyond just, oh, that's a very pretty painting, it's like there's depth to it, there's beauty, there's truth in it. Uh, and so I I love that aspect of like you finding joy in the process that you're creating with God and not for the approval of anybody, but it's from the approval of God. I think it's that's so beautiful. Um I I guess to kind of land this plane in in a way, uh, what would you say to a young Christian creative who wants to use their gifts to glorify God, but they might be afraid of either compromising their faith, wasting their potential. What's one encouragement that you would give to someone who's maybe even feeling unseen or underappreciated in the in the space? One thing. Just one. You only have one thing. No, you can do multiple things.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah, I would I would say to that Christian, God has uniquely made you to be a creative being. Um and he's made you that way for his glory. But uh be free to give him the glory that you were made for, giving. But be cautious to not be a glory thief by making the art that points to yourself. Uh because you will never be satisfied. You will always feel like you're never measuring up, or you'll always feel uh like you're comparing with other people, you will die by a thousand critiques. Uh protect your heart from being a glory thief by making art that glorifies him. I think a practical way of doing this, just because that's very like I think a very practical way would be to make art that no one ever sees. You make for you for your God who created you. Man, that's good. And I I have learned that has been a wonderful freeing discipline for me. Artists all have discipline, they hone their skill. The illustrator masters his fingers to make sure that he's not too heavy and not too light. They master the art of the way the canvas kind of sets ink into it. They master the art of you know timing and emotion. I would say exercise the discipline of protecting your heart by showing like keeping some of the art that you make for no one to see. But just Lord, I'm making this for you. This is uh, and this could be yeah, I think it's a very helpful and a very safe thing. And it builds a muscle in you that says, My art is not about me.

SPEAKER_03 52:54

Yeah. That's so good, man. I the and and and and your reward is enough for me. Yeah. Like just your glory, your being exalted, just me and you. I mean, I uh it's obviously the discipline of prayer. Go in the room, close your door, pray your father's unseen, and your father sees what is done in secret or rewards you that there's there. I love that. I've I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. I know you said we're landing the plane, but I gotta ask one more question. Because uh, yeah, by God's grace, you also use your creative gifts uh for the spread of his glory among the nations in global mission. Um uh and uh yeah, I would just love for you to speak to that. Why, why is that the case? And what do you think? Uh yeah, we talk all the time about this is for every follower of Jesus. It's not just for the uh the missionary, it's not just for this like every follower of Jesus has unique gifts and has a part to play in the spread of his glory and all the earth because that's where all history is headed. So uh yeah, just how have you processed that and uh how's that played out in your life?

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Yeah, well, I want to be intentional with my creativity to be evangelistic. Um and so I'm gonna be intentional to find ways to use my creativity to reach all people that are made in the image of God. And I think um beauty uh transcends languages. Beauty has a way of hitting the senses, beauty has a way that like moves your eye and your heart. And I want to use all of that creativity to point people across borders and even in Portland, Oregon, to want to long for the person behind all of that beauty. Um, and that's why I have I've partnered, I've I've sought to partner with people that want to make much of Jesus around the world. And I want to help them make their messaging beautiful because their messaging is the message that saves. Yes, yes. Uh good. So yeah, I I I'm very excited about that. And I also think that's another uh it's one of the things that God has been so kind to to give me as a pastor who doesn't have all the opportunity to make creative things uh as often as I'd like. Uh, but I get to partner with these organizations to um herald the beauty and glory of Jesus around the world. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:42

That's that's really and in a way that you're you're pretty in the background. Yeah. Uh and no one even well, no one even knows what I'm doing. Right. Yeah. So sorry to bring attention to it, but uh we'll just kind of but uh yes, I mean that's that's uh another uh yeah, it's what you were talking about. So it's not just for the Lord, but it is uh producing stuff, creating stuff in ways that are not drawing any attention to you, that is literally helping spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. That's pretty awesome. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Well, I think about the creatives that are on your team, you know, radical. These are some amazingly gifted people. And what's amazing is that when they probably started making art, they all wanted to make art that the world could see. And now what they're doing is they're creating art that the world can see and no one sees them. Yeah, that's and God is glorified.

SPEAKER_03 56:38

Isn't that crazy? Yes, that's so good. That's good. So good.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

Praise God.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Bro, would you would you pray over those who are listening to this and just I mean, I'm always, we always if we prayed before we started this, but just there are all kinds of people with all kinds of different gifts, skills, uh, and just processing all they've heard in just different ways. I'd love for you to pray over them, however the Spirit leads you.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Yeah. Oh, Father, we do pray for any creative person, any non-creative person that um that might be listening and might be struggling with how to do their art or how to protect their heart. I do pray, oh God, that first and foremost you would uh liberate them from the tyranny of comparison, liberate them from uh the approval of man, liberate them from trying to find uh fulfillment and satisfaction in um how people perceive them or how well their art is received. God, I pray first and foremost that you would help them to delight in Jesus, that they would begin to make meaningful, beautiful, glorious things for your glory, the source of meaning in all beauty. I do pray, oh God, that you would uh help all of us as creatives uh to find deep satisfaction not just in the end of our art, but in the process of it. May we feel close to you and connected to you as we create. Um, may you help us to recognize that for any effort that we use to create, we are always dependent upon the Spirit of God to have any fruit in our creative contributions. Uh and Lord, I do pray that um you would help us to use our creative work to spread your fame uh across the world, that we would not be glory thieves, but we would be uh uh spotlights. May John the Baptist be our example of what it means to be a hype man for Jesus, what it means to push people towards the Lamb who was slain. Uh we can't do that on our own, oh God. So do that in us. Protect us, keep us, and make us find deep joy in you, Lord. We pray in Christ's name.

SPEAKER_02 59:17

Amen. Thank you so much for watching this episode of Everyday Radical. We pray that it encouraged you to follow Jesus more faithfully and make him known everywhere. Be sure to hit that like and subscribe button, and we'll see you in the next one.