WORLD CUP ETC - FEATURE SERIES: Positions & Their Roles - The Winger

Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio discuss the classic winger, their skills, psychology and box-office draw. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Hi everyone, welcome back to World Cup, etc., where we are going to continue today with the feature series on positions on the football pitch in teams and their roles. And today we're going to do the winger. Um we uh not the flanking midfielder, but the pin your ears back speedster, the trickster, the flamboyant maverick, the one that gets your pulse racing, where you never quite know what's going to happen. And if you want some examples of the figures that we're referring to, we're talking about your George Bests, your Aryan Robbins, your Ryan Giggses, and your Frank Reberies. Interestingly, I think maybe given that um uh that on the last uh episode in the series we talked about strikers and we talked a little bit about the sort of maturing of strikers, there's an argument to be made here for the fact that a lot of these wingers actually um excuse me, are actually at their best when young and that they age fairly quickly. But I'm sure we'll come to that with uh with our special uh perpetual guest that is Declan Link. Uh Declan, how are you today?

SPEAKER_03 1:35

I am very well, thank you, John. How is the life in Mexico today for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Oh, you know, life in Mexico tends to be tends to be sunny, uh, tends to be uh uh sort of shorts and if not t-shirt, then sort of Hawaiian shirt. Weather which kind of works for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

And on the back of our conversation about uh the the beautiful little oasis called Winter Park here in the Orlando area, um there is a massive art festival next uh weekend, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, which you would absolutely adore coming to, knowing your interest in uh art and culture.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Well, there you go. I have to I'll have to schedule that in for um for next time. I thought you were going to say something about the fact that it was um a particular art festival where people sort of swan around in uh sort of uh second rate, far too loud Hawaiian shirts and flip-flops, and that I'd fit well fit well in there. But no, I'm glad that you've sort of you've upmarketed me into being a sort of an art connoisseur. So thanks for that. My pleasure. Um, Declan, the winger. Um, it seemed to me that um the individuals we we mentioned before that that position is really particular. It needs uh not only special footballing skills, but also a particular mentality. Um, it's potentially the one figure uh who can exist outside of a team structure, uh, I would argue. Would you agree with that to some extent?

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Yes, very much so. I would uh I would actually classify the sort of uh classic winger as being the sexiest position on the pitch. There's nothing sexy about being a defender, uh holding midfield, maybe a box-to-box attacking midfield player and a goalscorer, but uh in its pomp, the traditional winger position has um, and some of the names you mentioned uh at the start of the broadcast, uh just just put a smile on people's faces. So I definitely would think it's um the classic, although it's changed, it's changed a lot over the years, but the classic winger that we we we associate um particularly um with that time period in maybe um the the 1950s to the 1970s, um is definitely uh first and foremost in our minds as to uh the George Bests and the Ryan Giggs and the um Frank Ribri, not the best-looking footballer I've ever seen, um, and the Aaron Robbins of this world. So no, I totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, and actually, if we're talking about sort of sexy footballers and the people that are box office and that you go to see, I would sort of add David Um Ginela into in there as well. Maybe we can just spend a bit of time thinking about the the sort of the the mental attributes, um, the psychology that a a winger needs, because that's also quite distinct to to the to the rest of the side, isn't it? These sort of speedsters, you need a particular kind of mentality, I think.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Yeah, I mean uh I'll I'll throw a name out there that not many of our listeners will probably have ever heard of before, and I don't know if you'd have heard of him, but to me, you know he he this person or this player when he was in his pomp was what I consider everything to be about a wide traditional winger. His name was Dave Thomas. Do you know that name at all, John? No, I don't I don't know Dave Dave Thomas. Yeah, he was um he was born back in 1950 and had a a very good professional career in the UK playing for Burnley, particularly in his time playing for Queen's Park Rangers, Everton, Middlesbrough, Portsmouth, and Wolverhampton Wanderers, and he made eight appearances for the English national team during that time frame. But he was your c what I would call a classic winger in that period, in that he didn't wear shin pads, his socks were rolled around his ankles, he had tight shorts on, and he had extreme dribbling skills, directly attacking um fullbacks, crossing the ball to strikers, and staying as wide as possible. As as we always used to talk about it, you know, keep chalk on your boots for a winger. You've got to be as wide as possible. So um he's a lesser known player, but in my mind, um, from that period in the 70s when he was playing, I remember him very clearly.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Yeah, there's there's an instinct with a with a lot of right or left midfielders these days to almost to sort of hold the ball up, cut inside as um uh as a sort of a default protest uh process. But these uh these figures that we're talking about, of course, as you say keep your keep the chalk on your boots were ones that would just pin their ears back and just go hell for leather. Uh they'd always, of course, have a lot of pace. Um, they'd be very finely balanced and they would hug the the touchline. To some extent, I guess um one of the reasons why these figures are something of an endangered species these days is because there's a there's an uber organization and and hyperstructure to to teams, especially as regards the sort of the the tracking back that takes place these days. So they're almost regarded as um as a luxury item, almost like a like a leg spin bowler in in cricket, I think. Would you would you say that they are an endangered species these days, much more than they were in decades past?

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Definitely. I mean, obviously the formations of teams go through different stages over the years, and and certain formations become fashionable for a while. I mean, I mean, obviously long time before we were ever around, uh, back in the 1870s to the 1920s, there was what they called a pyramid formation, which was a 2-3-5, and they had an outside right, a right winger, and an outside left, a left winger with five forwards. Nowadays, uh, or actually in the probably in the last 15 to 20 years or so, when the when when 442 formations became dominant with a big man and a little man up front, um the the the wingers actually changed from you know the georbest time frame into what I would call more like wide midfield players. Um, whereas whereas now uh a modern winger, if it if if if he or she is actually called a winger, um have really become inverted. And what I mean by that is instead of sort of staying wide with chalk on your boots and crossing balls into the box as much as possible, the right-footed players typically play on the left-hand side, and the left-footed players typically play on the right-hand side, which allows them to cut inside and shoot with their stronger foot. And obviously, players like Cristiano Ronaldo, are Arjan Robin, Mohammed Sala are classic modern-day uh uh examples of that type of modern day winger. Um, but as you said, John, you know, all these teams, as I sit here watching on my TV, Arsenal playing Everton in one game and Chelsea playing uh Newcastle in another game, um they they all expected nowadays to track back and work hard defensively. Very, very different from when we were growing up watching classic wingers in those times.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Yeah, and um thinking about this sort of inverted position, I would say that you're kind of it's interesting because um there is a consistency to the likes of your Luis Diaz's Colombia, uh Colombian striker, of course, Lamin, uh Lamina Yamal, uh Spain, Barcelona, Vinicius Jr., Brazil, Real Madrid, Salah as well, who you who you mentioned, obviously Liverpool, Egypt striker. They all sort of hold a position um much more inside, so at a certain distance from uh the touchline. Again, almost employ a kind of I mean they do run at uh defenders, but um, but that's not de regard. It doesn't happen all the time. A lot of the time it seems as though they almost play a sort of a Marc Hughes hold-up role, receive the ball, see options, and then potentially run at players um as well. So that I guess the sort of the standard uh flanking midfielder now is certainly very different to again that sort of exciting player that we remember from from generations past.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah, I mean if you look if you if you look back at the history of the game globally, you know, the eight, as I mentioned, the 1870s to the 1920s was just pure wide forwards crossing the balls in for strikers. The 1930s to the 1950s, they were still attacking, but there was more of a tactical discipline, and we've seen that develop and mature over the years. The period between 1950 and sort of the early 70s was that's when we consider that the sort of golden age of dribbling wide men. Um and then the 70s to 90s, the wide midfielder was not really an attacking winger like we associated with it. And as I said today, and from really the sort of 2000 period onwards, uh it's it's it's defending, it's and there's exceptions to that. I mean, uh Vinicius Jr., for example, uh Killian Mbappe, for example, maybe their defending isn't uh there's not as much pressure on them to get back. However, the vast majority of these players nowadays are have a defensive responsibility and they have to get back, and they're up and down and up and down, etc. etc. So, I mean, when I was doing a little bit of research on this, you know, the the um the the the top three wingers in World Cup history come from that period in the 50s to 70s, and the first and foremost one is Garincha, the most the very, very famous Brazilian who carried the Brazilian team um through the the 58, 62, and 1966 World Cup final. The second one, and you'll remember this, uh John, is Jarzinho from the 1970 FIFA World Cup. Uh in he played in every Brazil match there and and and was incredible. And then you know, Tom Finney, who who was a classic old English player from those times. And globally, I don't think people know as much about George Best. Um, however, George Best in growing up in the UK, he just didn't get the exposure in the World Cup like some of these other players did. And as a result, people don't know about him globally, but that was one heck of a talent George Best was, both on the pitch and off the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right, you're absolutely right. That the thing George Best suffers, of course, from the fact that football at a particular point in time didn't have the global exposure that it has now. Being a Northern Ireland striker as well, he never reached uh the kind of the uh the sort of um the the global tournament, which again has a has a massive reach. And of course, it's um pretty uncontroversial to argue as well that he wasn't exactly um uh he didn't really sort of support himself in becoming the best version of what he could be. But in to some extent, that also that sort of maverick nature is is also part of um how we regard, I think, or remember uh George Best. That again, we we sort of spoke a little bit in the in the last edition about figures that for whom football was important, but it wasn't just football. And best would would come in in in that sort of um uh in that sub-heading sub-group, along with sort of the likes of Eric Cantoner as well. Interesting that you mentioned Vinitius and Mbappe, because I I almost certainly they have a clause in their contract which specifies no obligation whatsoever to to track back. Um Declan, where would you put Mucayo Saka in this sort of um in this in this history and sort of structure of of wingers?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Did you ask that specific question because you're such an Arsenal lover? Or is it because of his um England responsibilities? Because you know, they they loosely uh, you know, the media talk about legends and they they bandy that term around. I think Saka is has the potential to um to be everything legendary over his career. He's such a a great individual player, he's such a great team player, and he's obviously contributed a lot both to the national team and to Arsenal over the years. I think he's having a bit of a down season this year, um, but he is unquestionably, you know, a classic modern day uh winger type of player. Now he has the responsibility to get back defensively, uh, and he wears that well because there has been times Arteta has actually, uh, before they got their great current squad together, played him in a traditional left back. So he can he actually uh his DNA is such that he can defend. So I think he has all the potential, but he hasn't he hasn't realized it yet. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah, and and actually I think you're saying about how he has been played left back. That there's almost um, I mean, again, we we've lost some of these figures, but your your Ashley Coles, for example, there's there's almost an argument to say that the that the modern day winger is actually a wingback and is um sort of charges back from from deeper and offers that option rather than the sort of the flanking midfield. Um yeah, I think Saka is um has uh uh if not all, most of the attributes needed to be uh a sort of a top class, world uh class player. And arguably his down season, or his slight dip in form this season, has been to do with a slight restructuring of Arsenal, um, Arsenal's determination not to give away the Premier League title in this uh in this particular iteration and is sort of centering, tightening themselves up in in midfield, which has offered potentially less opportunity for for Bukai Yasaka. Um the other one I I think we um who is something of a throwback, um difficult to pronounce, but um bear with me, I'll do my best. The Georgian and PSG uh striker Kevicha, Kevarich Kalia, is that pronounced uh correctly? But he's quite a remarkable player.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

He's fantastic. Yeah, and obviously uh when when PSG uh won the uh won the Champions League last year, that suddenly a whole crop of players that really we as global football fans didn't really know much about or came about. But you know, I was watching uh the game in Paris so sorry, the game against Chelsea the other day, and there was no question he is an incredible talent, and um, and it's probably a throwback to uh you know what we would consider uh one of those those those wingers we grew up with, not just uh um a George Best, but a Ryan Giggs and R R Arjun Robin, um you know John Barnes or Chris Waddle, those types of players, even even to a certain extent, uh a Jack Grealish. But Jack Grealish in many respects, you know, is that maverick that can play as a 10 and can play wide right and wide left. And you could argue that um Manchester City have actually coached that individual maverickness, if there's such a word, out of him. But uh yeah, it's it's the development of um of um wingers over the years has been incredible. It's definitely a very sexy position, but I think in the modern day the uh defensive responsibilities mean that some of their uh uh essential skills on taking on people, getting crosses into the box, etc. etc., is effectively coached out of them because they have to work very, very hard. Uh whereas whereas you know, for many, many decades, the winger was a bit of a luxury item on the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, I think that that point about coaching um natural instincts out of the classic uh winger is is spot on. I wonder whether Kvarish Kelia actually, of course, he is Georgian, if he was born a Frenchman or an Englishman, um um uh Italian, I wonder whether he would have that sort of maverick nature still available to him that um that he has now. It seems to me that there's at least an argument that could be made that it was him growing up in a in not a not in a in a sort of a in a footballing um centerpiece country, which sort of allowed for his development of those skills, which seem to me to be very natural skills. It it it doesn't he doesn't look like somebody who has been coached to within an inch of his life.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Yeah, no, I I completely concur. I completely agree. And and uh those are the types, those are the types of players that really you know get the fans off their seats in the stadium and and and grab attention when you watch watching games on TV or in a pub. Uh so you know obviously let's let's because being a forward myself when I was a player, at the end of the day, some of the Barcelona sort of tiki-tacky stuff when that was fashionable, uh and Manchester City to a certain extent still nowadays, you know, if I was Haaland, although I've and I'm obviously not a Haaland, but I would be quite frustrated because I think football is a game of percentages, and the more times you get the ball into the box, the more chance from a probability perspective that chances are going to be created. And I think Haaland sometimes goes through games where he has 15-16 touches, and that's why his his goal scoring record is so incredible. But I do think that sometimes a lot of the time Manchester City could you know get the ball into the box from traditional wide places, and they don't do that. They pass, they pass backwards, they pass sideways, they pass forwards, they pass backwards, sideways, and forwards, rather than getting the ball into the box. But that's my biased opinion as a striker.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

No, I think I think you're right. Haaland is um clearly limited by current footballing structures. I mean, imagine Haaland playing in a in a team coached by potentially uh Harry Redknap or a Kevin Keegan or somebody like that in a in a different age. I think it would be a very um be very different in many ways. Manchester City don't actually play to Haaland's um strengths.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Yeah, I mean there is an argument that says that Manchester City are an easier team on the eye when Haaland isn't playing. And uh because he just attracts so much attention, but you know, they're probably a more arguably a more balanced team when uh they they don't have him when he's injured or he's on the bench. But uh again, I I would have Harland on my team, and I know we were talking about fantasy teams earlier on. He's on all of my fantasy teams, so I would definitely have him on the team. But you you know, as a forward, you've got to have the service.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yeah, absolutely. And then also interesting that you should bring up Chris Chris Waddle because um I think his time at Marseille as well. Well, I mean, of course, he was an incredible, unique Maverick player as well. But I doubt Marseille would have bought him or been engaged, interested in him, and uh, and he wouldn't have had the same sort of um iconic appreciation from the Marseille fans if it wasn't for the fact that he was he was a winger. And that's what Marseille wanted from him. They wanted him to be uh the difference between them and any other team. It wasn't about um the best 11 players, it was about uh 10 players and waddle and seeing what could happen.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Yeah, and and and I think um the same sort of argument could be made for who you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, uh David Ginola. I mean, it very, very distinctive. Obviously, he played at Tottenham Hotspur and Newcastle United, uh very individual individualistic type of player, lovely hair, a bit like Paul Schmidt Trotsky's hair. Um, but again, that there was a reason why he said he he was so successful when he played in the UK. And and I'm sure Chris Waddell, when he went over to uh to France, uh you know, it was the same sort of it was the same sort of logic behind um signing him.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah, when Ginilla Cain arrived in England, it was at just about the same time as uh people were still looking at garlic as some kind of foreign alien uh culinary uh culinary ingredient. So there was definitely this sort of um this dichotomy between um this uh uh being suspicious of foreign as uh anything that was sort of flamboyant and sexy, but also it being a real sort of um game changer as well. Uh I'm looking forward to uh obviously at some point we'll do goalkeepers and um and that will be a good moment to get Paul Schmidroshka in uh on the conversation because clearly he has the kind of um the physique and let's say not hike but altitude that um that can pretty straightforwardly fill an entire uh an entire goal. Um for the moment, Declan, as ever, thank you so much for your time. That was another great little uh chat. Maybe we can uh maybe we can move on the next one uh to the sort of Didier Deschamps water carrier figure.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Yes, definitely. We'll be all over that one. All right, take care. Thank you. Thanks, John.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Now the club head back to the same thing and then yeah.