WORLD CUP ETC - FEATURE SERIES: Positions & Their Roles - The Holding Midfielder

Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio discuss the most crucial, least heralded role of all: the man in the hole. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Hello, welcome back to World Cup, etc., where we're back with another episode in our series on different positions on the football pitch, the skills and mentality they require. And uh we look back over some of the most renowned exponents of these positions. Today, Declan Link and I will be looking at the water carrier, more commonly known as the holding midfielder, the disruptor in chief, sometimes a long, long time ago, even referred to as a sweeper, although probably a defensive sweeper, and I'm sure we'll come to that. Um, the term water carrier, interestingly, as I'm sure a number of you remember, was famously coined by Eric Cantonar in 1996. Uh speaking of then international teammate Didier Deschamps, now manager of France. It was definitely meant as a derogatory term, implying his role was merely to win the ball and pass it to more talented teammates. Despite the in the uh insult, Deschamps uh embraced the role and became uh really, I guess, by this stage, one of France's most uh famous, historically uh decorated uh defensive midfielders. And of course he captained France in 1998 to World Cup and then Euro uh success and glory. Cantanar's entire comment, and I think it's just worth quoting in full, just so that we don't avoid uh misunderstanding, is uh he said, and I quote, Deschamps gets by because he gives a hundred percent, but he'll never be anything more than a cat than a water carrier. You find players like him on every street corner, unquote. Damning, eh Declan?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yes, I mean, um it's funny, you should I've never heard of the water carrier as an expression for for what is now modern day called a number six. Uh I know more of him, as you said, are like a defensive midfield player, a holding midfield player, or there's another term I've heard which is called an anchor man. But um you look every day's a new day, you learn a new thing every day, John.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Yeah, there you go. And um, and I'm sure we'll we'll we'll come to the sort of the the difference between a number of these figures because you've got um figures like, for example, Lotha Mateus and Roy Keane and Patrick Vieria that potentially could be seen as being water carriers, but I think they were much more uh I mean going back to this sort of old uh generally conceived to be outdated notion of the sweeper, I think they were much more sort of they had a much more free role and they had such incredible mobility. Whereas your sort of your Descham and your Claude Macaulay in the 2000s and your your uh Ngola Kante for Leicester and Chelsea uh after that were really these figures that sat in front of the back four normally um and really sort of held that position and disrupted whatever attacks were coming. Um and you can really with all of these figures, you can, if you think about them in your mind's eye, they were incredible tacklers, um, and not sort of um not tacklers that you know they wouldn't dive in or anything, they would just be able to read the game incredibly well, put their foot in um where it was most needed, win the ball, and then almost immediately uh pass it on to uh to somebody else. I would argue that this very particular role uh probably requires um as much, if not more in the way of uh skill, uh the skill of reading the game, of vision for the game than any other role on the football pitch.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

Yeah, as we were sort of talking about the wingers the other day, that which are, as I as I coined and termed the phrase, sexy, this position is not sexy in any stretch of the imagination. However, it has become a critically important position for the vast majority of teams. I mean, uh in in in doing some research, uh, which you know I always like to do, um, it just doesn't seem as though there was a type of defensive midfield player at number six really until the 1970s and and eighties, and and then between you know the 1970, 1974 World Cups, and up to the modern day, it's become a more and more increasingly critical position as the tactics have matured across national teams, across the top league teams in the top leagues in the in the world, etc. The the um the holding midfield role seems to have become more of a defined role back in the 1970s, where teams began using a specialist in that position to to do four things protect the defence, uh win tackles, make playmakers, and keep things simple in possession. And good examples of that from that part the good good examples, actual players from that time were Marco Tardelli, a box-to-box player who also had the defensive duties, and a another Italian guy, Claudio Gentile, who was, as you said, I arguably a defender, but he would step into that role um in the number six, sitting in front of the defence and and and trying to add an extra line of defence to block the ball and block players, etc. etc. And back in those times, in the 70s through to the 90s, the job was very basic. It was a destroyer, i.a.k.a. a ball winner, and uh it was an early playmaker. And as we saw in the 1990s, the number six became, to your point, John, a more specialist position because that position was almost like had solid defensive duties, but also had developed into being a more of a sort of deep passing, almost like an American football quarterback type of position as well, back in those times. So um, yeah, I mean definitely the what when we can remember the game so vividly, the 1990s was arguably when we really saw the two different types of number six evolve. One they called the destroyer, breaks play, aggressive, physical, and to your to to your early examples, Didier Deschamps is the one that comes up straight away, and then Roy Keane, Nottingham Forest, Manchester United, Republic of Ireland, and then there is the deep playmaker or the register who sits deep and dictates the tempo. For example, um the famous Manchester City coach, ex-Barcelona coach, Pep Guardiola, that's exactly what he used to play like.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah, and then you've got these in that sort of second example, the playmaker as well. Then you've got some of the incredible figures again, like sort of Patrick Vieira, who um I mean he was such a physical specimen. He could obviously read the game and he had an incredible pass on him as well. But a bit like with Lothamateus, and again, I'm not sort of suggesting that these were standard number six holding midfielders, but what really marked the likes of him out was that then he could immediately turn defense into attack. Um, almost more in that great Arsenal side, the Emmanuel Petit sort of was there to support, because obviously Vieira would go on these these driving runs and leave that position. But when we think about the holding midfielder, really he occupies this again, this space in front of the back four. Uh, usually we also almost always associate them with um a real sort of uh workhorse nature, uh, with um a um an incredible productivity in terms of the movement. But again, I I think in a way we misunderstand that a little bit because I would argue that the best exponents of uh of that role, it seems to us as though they're actually doing a lot of work, but really it's the nature of with which the sort of the innate sense with which they read the game which makes us think that they're actually doing a lot more work than they are.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, I mean, and and obviously the one who from my perspective, or the one player who then leads to the next uh exponent of that, and and is a very good um illustrative uh you know player that describes that type of uh value to the team would be Claude Makalely, who then ultimately, once you talk about Claude Makulely, you then immediately think about the the modern day version of Makalelli, who was um Ungolo Cante from Leicester, Chelsea and the French national team.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

And and and you can't imagine their sides and the success of their sides without those two figures. And actually, in my mind's eye, they're almost interchangeable as well. But their role, and and again, I always think, you know, when we sort of watch sport, we watch matches, we're watching something take place uh in front of us, but then how we memorize these things, those moments afterwards, I think is really indicative because it sort of mixes what actually took place with almost a sort of a mythologizing of particular figures. And Makaleli and Kante and Golakante were certainly those those sort of crucial, uh unsexy, unchampagny, they didn't look for the glory, but they had an absolutely key role. And and I'd argue, um, and I'm sure I think it's almost a very obvious point, so I apologize for for making this. But if you're sort of if you are structuring your side in that way, that that holding midfielder is the central figure around which you can build everything else. You would always start with, again, if you have if you're shaping your team in that way, and if you're lucky enough to have that kind of figure to draw on, then you would always begin with them and then see how the rest of the team fits in around them.

SPEAKER_00 9:55

Yeah, I mean, I'd always call that that evolving of that um player that we started talking about, as almost the role becomes what I would call tactical glue. And what I mean by that is the Claude Makelelli in the early 2000s, mid-2000s, was like a tactical screenslash leader. Uh, and his in his role was so influential that they they actually call it in some circles the Makalelli role, purely positional discipline. Whereas evolving around the same time, and this is when the Barcelona, the great Barcelona team was around, the Spanish national team were incredible, was the uh another type of player like this was evolving, and that's the recently retired Sergio Busques, who obviously was the key to a lot of the dominance for Barcelona and Spain when they won the World Cup and the Euros in the late uh 2010 uh time frame. And it's really, really interesting how the modern game onwards, from sort of 2015 till present, is that you've the they've evolved into almost like hybrid midfielders because today's holding midfield player has to do everything. I mean, they have to defend space, not just tackle, they have to start attacks, they have to resist pressing, they drop into defence when needed. Um, and modern-day examples of that is Ngolo Kante, because he is still actually playing, he hasn't retired. Rodri, obviously, from Manchester City, before he had his knee problem, you know, he he won the Ballon d'Eur. So that made his position so critical for Manchester City that he was deemed the best player in Europe. And then another good example to throw in there, who is playing extremely well at the moment, is extremely versatile, was really a right back in his formative years, is Joshua Kimmich from um Bayern Munich and Germany.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, I was going to ask you about Rodri actually, where you think Rodri fits into because he's almost the closest thing I can think of at the moment to that holding midfielder, but he has more well he again before his injury, he had more mobility than we would assume from the sort of Macaulay's and the cantes.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Yeah, when you have a serious knee injury like that, you know, arguably the vast majority of players never it takes a while for them, quite a while for them to rebound. And if they do rebound, because a large percentage of these players, when you get serious knee injuries, ACLs, etc., you you could say that they're probably not the same player, and Rodri is is not the same player at the moment. When Manchester City uh were winning all of their trophies uh and dominating European soccer and dominating the English football leagues and the cups and everything, he was the main reason why they were as dominant as they were. Um so I just think again, he hit the Father Time is potentially catching up with him. I wouldn't be surprised if Pep Guardiola is planning to stay around after this season, which by their standards hasn't been a banner season. If Pep's still around, whether or not they're already on the lookout for a new Rodri, a new version of him for the next version of Manchester City in Spain.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Yeah, and just going back to this um to the Spain side of the 2000s, uh, you mentioned the Sergio Busquets. Um, I think the remarkable thing about that is again with things sort of thinking about this reading of the game, this almost the the seeing how the game is developing and where moves are going to share how they're gonna shape before they even do. The thing that was amazing about that particular midfield, the Spanish midfield, was that they not only could read the game, they could also fully read where the rest of their midfielders were going to be. And it was it was such a beautifully fluid um group of players that would just almost instinctively know, and again, none none of them were that particularly physical, or and they didn't seem to be um as regards sort of footballing specimens that that incredibly highly productive, but they just had this innate sense of reading the game, reading where they needed to be and where the rest of their teammates were, and then incredible and incredible capacity for uh for passing the ball. Um and and that's I think what really marked out that particular that particular side or those sides alongside that um as I say that that incredible visionary quality that they all had.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, I mean if you think about it again, that Spanish national team, which arguably are being repeated at the moment, uh with them having won the Euros and being one of the strong favourites for the upcoming World Cup, uh, you know, you had you had Xabi Alonso who who arguably was a similar type of player to Sergio Busquets, you know, a deep passer, but he had a lot of defensive awareness. And then obviously you had um Iniesta playing as well, completely different type of midfield player. And you know, it's it's interesting when when I used to play with uh with my super intelligent brother George. Um he he got the brains. I also say he got the brains, I got the looks, but he was quite a good footballer as well. Uh but he understood he because he's a super intelligent, he understood his limitations. So that's the sort of position he he was uh fantastic at. He would get the ball, he would cover the central defenders, he would get his head up and then give the ball to the more creative players who could actually distribute it. It didn't help that he couldn't kick with his left foot. If he was left footed, he would have been an even better player. But um, I can't believe I'm actually talking about Sergio Busquets, Jabi Alonso, and my brother George in the same sentence.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yeah, and um and it I guess uh it reminds me a little bit of you know, I sometimes bring out a cricketing analogy. I think what you said about knowing your limitations is really important. There was this phase, if you remember, where, well, to some extent it's still kind of discussed, but certainly well before baseball with the English national side, where um you would put in as your number three batsman another opening batsman, somebody who had very particular kind of defensive qualities. And it's almost the same thing that you said before about your you don't want somebody who's extravagant, you want somebody who is very good at their their particular role. It's it's interesting thinking about um England as uh I mean, and obviously, I guess the closest thing to a microscope that we uh have is in terms of national sides uh for us. Uh there's always it's it's not um has there been a suspicion of the role of the holding midfielder? I guess that there's there's figures like Jordan Henderson, for example, that that crop up, but it it there's never really been an individual who sort of held that role for an extended period of time, I think, or am I wrong?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Henderson, the nodding forest uh number number eight, it has sort of uh risen up and and has is is is probably gonna be if they play uh a 4-2-3-1 type of formation, hi hi him and Declan Rice will probably be the two holding midfield players. But Declan Rice is a bit of an enigma because uh I think his ta some sometimes his talent is wasted because he ends up getting pushed further back uh in the in the in down the pitch for both Arsenal and uh England uh because he is so so versatile and and and England are swalked with choices for for number tens. Uh there's so many of them, it's incredible. So um yeah, I d I mean sometimes it was really frustrating in the World Cup in Qatar and then in the uh the Euros because uh Garrett Southgate was so rigid with his formations that many a time would he play two defensive midfield players in there, like a six and an eight, when we were playing clearly weaker nations, and we really didn't take the game for them. But um, you know, I look at I look at a at a number six, and and this is where I think of Makaleli and Golo Kante, is that the the the greatest number sixes in history, in my humble opinion, are the ones that you actually barely notice until you remove that person, that player from the team, uh the whole team collapses. And they they do all the dirty work um and normally don't get uh much praise at all, but and don't score goals, are not involved in set pieces. Um normally the only attention they get if they get a red card or or two yellow cards, but ultimately that's the ultimate complement to a a good, high-quality professional number six, is that they do all this and you hardly notice them.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, and and um I think if we think about fl some of the most flamboyant teams on earth, like Brazil, um you'd have to think about a figure like Dunga, if you remember him. Um obviously uh really atypical as regards going completely against the grain in terms of Brazilian football and culture, but arguably one of these figures that then without whom the rest of the of the team would not be able to sort of shine in the way that they uh in the way that they did.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

Yeah, I mean Dunga is you know, obviously the Brazilian mentality, and we had a good chat about uh Em rebounding under Carlos Carlo Vaccillotti. The the 1994 team was remembered, A, because the final was atrocious, uh, but B, from a Brazilian perspective, Dunga was stuck in there as a number six, as a holy midfield player, and really dictated the almost defensive, slow, methodical way that they played, unlike what most Brazilians like to see and the world likes to see, is an attacking, uh creative, uh fast playing, um you know, exciting Brazilian team that we've always associated with um with with them, and that's what you know they've won the notion number of World Cups. So Dunga Dunga you know is a little bit of a stain in Brazilian history, even though he he won the World Cup in 1994, but it's his steal and leadership that ultimately won them that World Cup. It certainly wasn't his flair, which is the flair which normally you associate with the Brazilian teams and Brazilian players.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I think what we've managed to do over the last 20 minutes, uh Declan, is to successfully argue that there is nothing as sexy as the unsexy.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Yes, I I completely agree. But again, it's so critical. As I said, I honestly believe you take a very good number six out of the team, and the team, and again I'll use the example of Manchester City this year, uh they're their organization, uh, their pattern of play, their leadership, because these number sixes are normally a leader, uh that it it impacts and affects their results at the end of the day. So very critical position, but definitely you know, in in in in in the playground when we were growing up and you were picking players, if you were fortunate to get into the the 11, you know, you don't ask to play the number six or defensive midfield player, the holding midfield player. You ask to be in goal or you ask to be up front knocking the goals in, not a number six.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Now that you've just brought that up, how about uh on our next little foray into footballing positions and their roles, we go right to the back and discuss uh uh the goalkeeper.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yes, I'm more than happy to do that because obviously there's been so many fantastic goalkeepers in the history, so many saves that we can talk about, um, etc. etc. And it's always very subjective uh whether or not this goalkeeper is better than that goalkeeper. But I do know when I see top class professional goalkeepers up up close and and and games nowadays or in a nick zone or wherever. They're all specimens. They're all six foot three to six foot seven and incredibly athletic and very imposing. So I look forward to that conversation when we next do that one, John.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

The only thing that I think we can trail ahead of that conversation which is absolutely objective and not subjective in any way, shape, or form, is that at no point in time should your first choice goalkeeper, or second or third choice goalkeeper, ever even consider employing the Scorpion kick.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

No, no, Mr. Hugita's got a lot to answer for.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

That's like the Panenka times 10, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yes. On to the next uh podcast soon. We'll definitely get a mention in for Rene.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Alright uh thanks Declan as as always look forward to the next chapter. Take care. Great.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Okay. Thanks John bye bye.

SPEAKER_03 22:51

Now the club head back to the same there we go.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

Etc.