WORLD CUP ETC - FEATURE SERIES: Positions & Their Roles - Goalkeeper

Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio discuss the lone ranger, the last man, the shot-stopper - the goalkeeper. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Welcome back to the World Cup Center, but today we're back on the tremendous positional roles on the football pitch. And more than that, how these roles are imagined, come into being, and are then developed and expanded, brought to life, if you like, by certain players. Today the focus is on goalkeepers. And what football conversation would be complete without football expert? Declan Link. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Hello, John. Hello, Paul. Hello, hello. How are you guys today?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Good. Just remember, Paul's not technically part of this uh this recording. So uh but it's all right, Paul's an amazing editor, so he can get rid of this whole bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Yeah, no, no problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Declan, conceptually, what do you want from a goalkeeper? And don't say stopping the ball from going into the back of the net. I mean, you can say that, but then this would be a very short and uninspiring recording. So tell us about your dream goalkeeper and keep it clean, please.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Yeah, I like to make it as inspiring as possible. And I actually think it's quite a fascinating position on the pitch. And the way that modern goalkeepers, as we understand them nowadays, have matured, they are arguably very, very different from even 20 to 30 years ago. The the they the the position has evolved, uh, as you just said, from basically shot stopping and keeping the ball out of the net, which is number one on the uh on the job description, to a goalkeeper nowadays, really it lends some of the defensive responsibilities, can arguably be a playmaker and also a tactical organizer at the back. So to me, I think the position is is is fascinating the way it has evolved, and in in many senses, a modern goalkeeper is it could really be determined to not be the last line of defense, but really arguably, and you think of someone like uh Edison when he played for Manchester City, is the first attacker. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah, I completely agree with you that I think the goalkeeper actually is um is a really fascinating figure on the field. He is almost sort of first among equals in a way. Um it's probably the position which uh up there with the striker can exist um as individually as anybody else. I also think that the goalkeeper is interesting because it's almost a sort of a spiritual, mythical component to goalkeepers. Again, maybe because of the fact that they do exist uh or they are seen as being in existing in in isolation. When when thinking about goalkeepers, I I sort of split the what I would want conceptually from a goalkeeper into a few different areas. Um the first, I mean, of course, you know, it goes without saying, back as we said before, shot stopping is the top of the is the top of the list there, and then uh close second would probably be uh something like control of the box, if you want to call it that, uh, for crosses and corners uh and and the like. But then everything else is actually uh very uh they're almost intangibles. Um, presence would be something which I think would be really important to add there. You sort of Oliver Kahns of Germany absolutely had that. Um, I would add leadership into that as well. I think it's it's um it can't really be understated that actually the goalkeeper is the the one individual who can see the whole game playing out in front of them. Everybody else has a partial view, and so uh leadership would be an important point there as regards the sort of the organizing. I mean, not just the functionalities of organizing, but also the demanding of a particular kind of uh the emphasizing of the need for um effort in front of him. I also think serious, this might be a strange one, Declan, but I also think seriousness is an important one. We've seen, again, because of this sort of isolation, this individualism, we've seen many goalkeepers through history. You uh your Rene Higuitas, your Jorge Campos's, of course, famous for his colourful jerseys and uh acting occasionally as a striker, often not to be found anywhere near his own goal mouth. Um I think I I certainly maybe it reveals a little bit about me, but I I I want somebody who knows that it's not about them, that it's about the team and it's about a collective performance. If my goalkeeper is starting to do a draw attention to himself or herself, then then I would worry. Um, I would add distribution, especially these days, is being a really important component there. Manuel Noah from Germany was probably one of the first to almost become sort of a sweeper uh keeper. Um, and then um longevity is uh uh an important one, I think, partly because of what it doesn't do. If if you're if you have your goalkeeper around for 10, 15, 20 years, it also means that you just don't have to worry about that position. And that also gives a real sense to the rest of the team and the supporters um as to the sort of the the strength of the backbone. Again, I would add that to the sort of the spiritual component. And then this sort of that all combines to um sort of a sense of an aura of a goalkeeper. How many how many times have we said or have we seen that it's not actually the goalkeeper that stops the shot, but it's the perception of the goalkeeper which makes the striker do something perhaps that they wouldn't ordinarily do? So I guess those are my you know my my conceptual demands, points of interest for for goalkeepers. Have I missed anything? Would you agree with those?

SPEAKER_02 6:22

I I actually did 10 differentiators or key attributes that I feel a modern-day goalkeeper has, and I've actually backed it up with for five of them, the the top five points, actual examples, a bit like you just did. I mean, the and this this is in a random order, but really the the first attribute in my line of ten is ball playing ability, i.e. a sweeper keeper. And you mentioned Manuel Neuer from Bayern and Germany, you know, comfort receiving that passes under pressure, ability to play short, accurate passes to defend this midfield players, longer distribution, driven passes, click balls, switches of play, acting as an extra outfield player in the build-up. So I think that's a very important uh attribute. Positioning and game intelligence is obviously extremely important. And Alison Becker from Liverpool and Brazil is a very good example of an elite goalkeeper who does extremely well at narrowing angles and being in the right place before danger develops. Uh, the third one is distribution, and I did mention Edison already. He's the one that immediately comes to mind. But it's not just the passing and the throwing of the ball out, it's the mix of short build-up and long direct balls, quick throws to launch counterattacks, and then those famous precision passes he used to bypass the the press of the opposition. The um Mark Andrei Terstegan uh is also a good example of sweeping a defensive range, and what I mean by that is his speed off the off the goal line, his one-on-one defending outside the box, and clearing the danger like a traditional centre back. And he's a very good example of that. And then, like you said, you know, number one on the job description, shot stopping still definitely matters, but it has evolved from goalkeepers in the the 40s, 50s, and 60s. And this really still remains core uh with the added nuance. The you know that the you see a lot more goalkeepers nowadays doing uh saves with their feet, not just their hands, like they used to in the old days, when they spread their bodies and, as they say, make themselves big, uh, better handling and parry decisions in the in the heat of the moment, and then reflexes uh in in tight spaces, you know, Tibor Hortois. Uh the Belgian International is a very, very good example of that. And then the other four things that I I came up with: composure under the press, communication and leadership. You want the goalkeeper, or goalkeepers I've always come across, are normally not playing with a full deck of cards, they have a few screws loose, but obviously if they're loud and commanding, that can be a very, very valuable trait to the team. So communication and leadership. And then, like we said on a previous call, the physical and athletic profile, I always think of Gordon Banks or Peter Bonetti from the 1970s being relatively, or Peter Shilton in the 86 World Cup being relatively small. Most of these goalkeepers now are minimally six foot two, six foot three, and extremely athletic. Uh, last two points adapted adaptability to tactical systems. You know, they have to be able to play different types of systems nowadays and play their part as a cog in the big picture wheel. And then they do have to be mentally resilient because if if they're they're weak in their in their mind, if they're not tough uh being able to compartmentalize and forget about errors, that could absolutely destroy them as a goalkeeper, which is probably what will happen to uh Kepa after Arsenal got beaten in the Carabao Cup on Sunday by Manchester City.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Yeah, mental health for a goalkeeper, I think, is um is definitely um up there as one of their challenges. It's interesting what you say about the size differences over time, Declan, because as I was sort of going back over goalkeepers, just thinking about um this conversation that we were going to have, you're absolutely right. The sort of the um the the smaller, lithe, sort of faster moving, well, in theory, faster moving, but the these huge units these days move pretty quick too. Um, of the sort of 50s and and 60s are completely different now to um to the sort of the towering cranes that we that we see these days. I was also interested in what you said about the full deck of cards, um, or the missing, not quite having a full deck of cards. Um, the individual that immediately springs to mind for me there is Bruce Grobola, Liverpool's famous goalkeeper. Where does where where would you say that he fits into all this?

SPEAKER_02 11:06

I no, I would definitely say because, you know, as as as soon as you mentioned Bruce Grobelar, you think of what he used to do when he was trying to save penalties, where his legs and his knees went all jelly-like, he had a larger-than-life persona and was able to put off the opposing player who was trying to pass the uh shoot the penalty kick past him. So, again, an international goalkeeper playing for one of the best best teams of those decades. Bruce Schwablar, although probably not in one of my 10 most tech technically best goalkeepers ever, uh, would definitely be up there and is one of Liverpool's finest goalkeepers without me doubt at all, and an international player.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Yeah, definitely a um the aura component comes in pretty significantly there for Grubalau. I was also interested what you said about the positioning about the um the reading of the game before Danger develops, and who's I mean, not in the way that you were referring to, but it also it reminded me uh absolutely of David Seaman. You remember that um I think we remember for two things. One is that hair, um, but then also those two goals, the 40-yard lob by Naeem in the 1995 UEFA Cup winners' cup final, and then Ronaldinho's 2002 World Cup free kick as as well. To some extent, I mean yeah, amazing goalkeeper by any standards. But I also wonder if posterity is going to be sort of focuses on those two really significant moments in in his history and is sort of unable to forget those errors.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

But I do again, you you can be the the the goat if you're a goalkeeper, but as we're saying, you the the mental resilient side of it, you have to be completely, completely uh met strong mentally, because obviously in World Cup tournaments, in uh big cup competitions, uh over the course of a season in a league, the goalkeeper can obviously be the one who is blamed for losing the final or losing the critical last game of the season because they've let one slip through their hands or their legs or whatever the case may be. So yeah, I mean it's it's a critical position and it's definitely evolved into being a very, very key contributor to a modern-day team. It's funny when I when I when I was looking up the 10 best World Cup goalkeepers ever, your two mates, Jorge Campos and Reg Rene Hegita, were neither of them were mentioned, John. However, both of them are memorable for different reasons. Uh Jorge Campos was about five foot two and wore those very leary goalkeeping tops. And Rene Hegita, as we mentioned on the last podcast, is famous for that scorpion kick. Uh, but they certainly weren't listed as the top ten goalkeepers, World Cup or uh league goalkeepers of all time. Um I did it'll be quite interesting, you know, just going through what I for what I think and what I found out with the 10 top 10 World Cup goalkeepers ever. The first one is the famous Russian Lev Yashin, who played in four World Cups from 58 to 1970. Second one was uh Gian Large Gian Lutri Bafoon, the famous Italian World Cup goalkeeper who played in World Cups all the way from 1998 to 2014. Uh Manuel Noya, Dino Zof. Um Gordon Banks, who we'll be talking about when we do Mexico 1970 soon, because in many respects that save he made from Pel from Pele is arguably the most famous uh goalkeeping save in the history of the game, particularly the World Cup. Uh Igor Casilas from Spain, Oliver Kahn, who you mentioned earlier on, Seth Meyer, uh famous West German goalkeeper from 66, 70, and 74. Uh Claudio Tafarel, and then obviously after Qatar in 2022 and that famous final between Argentina and France, that was one of the greatest clutch performances ever from uh Emiliano Martinez, the Argentinian goal anger.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I really appreciate you referring to Gen Luigi Buffon as uh Gen Luigi Buffoon. I think that's definitely going to be in the end of year outtakes. Uh again, we'll go into premium content. Um, listen, one other thing which struck me about goalkeepers is how few goalkeeper managers uh there are. Again, I I would guess that this sort of links back to their particular role on the uh on the pitch and their relative isolation. Um, but I hadn't really sort of thought about that as a uh as a thing until uh until until considering these these goalkeepers, but that yeah, they're almost entirely absent. I mean, a lot of them have um uh particular sort of specialized coaching roles, but but not that many at all uh with sort of broader team coaching or management engagement.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

No, I think we're I think we're in that age now of the specialized coaches for each position on the field, and and most even what even when I was coaching at university over here for those many years, we had a uh a goalkeeping coach who was with Keith and myself for 25 years, Joe Raymond, and then he was replaced by two other goalkeeping coach coaches when he retired after 25 years. And uh, you know, every I can guarantee every team that's qualified for the World Cup this summer is gonna have specialized, probably multiple goalkeeping coaches for this goalkeepers on their squad.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

And um, and with all these different um characteristics that we've mentioned, is is there a a particular goalkeeper which um comes to mind for you that sort of uh the exhibits manifests uh uh most of those um characteristics in one in one individual? Or a few?

SPEAKER_02 17:16

I I think I think there's a few. I'm not sure that there's uh a perfect um perfect goalkeeper. I think I think there was some goalkeeper at one time who was Italian called Bluffoon. I think he was quite good. He was good. Uh no, in no in in in all seriousness, uh from sort of current times, I I I I actually uh do I do like the old style goalkeepers, but when you go down the list, Gordon Banks, uh Cassias, Khan, Seth Meyer, that's a real sort of old school type of uh uh uh goalkeeper. I feel that um in this day and age, you know, I remember the uh World Cup in in um Brazil in 2014, there was there was uh American goalkeeper that uh appears on NBC over here, Tim Howard, played for Eventon and Manchester United. Yeah, arguably uh, you know, from from that time period, he could he could be in that conversation of of one of the best goalkeepers of all time because in the famous defining game against Belgium in 2014, he had a record 16 saves, which were all outstanding saves in a single knockout game in the round of 16. Um so I I I I remember Tim Howard and obviously see him on TV all the time, and I really do think he is he is uh a very good goalkeeper of recent years. And then, you know, I've seen Manuel Noya up close a few times, and he seems to be going on and on and on. They've written him off many times, he had some horrendous injuries uh a few years ago, but someone like him, because I love the fact I used to encourage when I was coaching the kids' teams, the goalkeeper would literally play on the halfway line or on the center circle uh when we were pressing in the opposition half. So I particularly love that style of goalkeeper who comes out of his box and doesn't sit back on on his goal line. What about what about you, John? What's the sort of architectural type of goalkeeper that you would design? Because you seem actually to be quite passionate about this particular position on the pitch and almost to be a little bit of a frustrated goalkeeper yourself.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Well, look, I had a bad accident as a kid and uh I couldn't walk properly for a couple of years, so that meant I ended up being in goal uh in all in all of the with my crutches, but that's not uh my point of interest particularly. It uh I definitely given that injury, I uh I didn't occupy the sweeper role, I was basically just sort of stood still and hoping that people shot it directly at me. Um, but uh I would say that uh Peter Schmeichel um and actually also Edwin van de Saar are both sort of figures, but Schmeichel more so, I think he definitely had an uh an aura to him and had many of those um those skills that we've that we've sort of um listed. But it's also uh I think an interesting question because um Schmeichel, of course, played in one of the great Man United sides, Manchester United sides. Um and i I wonder going back to what you're saying about Tim Howard, that whether the measure of a real great goalkeeper is sort of counterintuitive because um they it's it's unusual for us to think of great goalkeepers in bad teams or mediocre teams. And of course, the likes of Schmeichel um are I mean good teams protect their goalkeepers much better than mediocre teams do. So I think it's almost difficult for us to accurately measure um what we think of a goalkeeper in a particular context because we've spoken about them being isolated, but actually how we conceive of them also really does depend on how the defensive unit ahead of them um plays. Uh our friends Generiji Buffon, uh just to finish up, played for a remarkable 28 years. Would you believe Edwin Vandessaad, 26? Manuel Noah is now what in his 25, 26 years, and still uh not out as well. Um, but yeah, I mean, certainly these guys have uh well at their very best have incredibly long uh long careers. Um, any other factors, Declan, that we've missed on the great in our great trawl through goalkeepers.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

No, but this is this is this has been a very very enjoyable one. I'd just like to, from my perspective, sort of uh round off this podcast by paying homage to the legend uh Johann Cruif on the Back of a recent 1974 podcast. Johann Croyff passed away 10 years ago today. So I want to pay a bit of homage to him, a bit of respect.

SPEAKER_00 22:11

Yeah, I think we should probably do a there are as we go through these different positions, there's definitely we've sort of spoken about some of them already, but there's definitely some figures, some players that absolutely defy definition. And I wonder whether maybe we should have an actual uh recorded conversation about those figures as well that were undoubtedly greats, but that you really couldn't pin down into being a particular. I mean, obviously we s we mentioned Pele as well, uh, within that, uh, within that too. You can't say they they play this role because they were sort of they exceeded um um those sort of constraints uh much more than other uh normal human players are able to do. Yes, Johann Croyff, little doubt.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

And I do think Johan Johan Cruyff was one of my all-time favourites, and he actually impacted sort of both sides of the game as a player. He was a legend, he was probably one of the top five players in history, but his influence behind the scenes with someone like Pep Guardiola, for example, is uh is still there today, even though poor Johan passed away ten years ago. The the the way that Pep Guardiola looks at football from a coaching perspective, and many others like Pep, but can't necessarily be said in the same breath. But his biggest influence, Pep Guardiola's, was Johan Croyf.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah, and that's the Barcelona League. I would argue that Johan Croyf and his uh his footballing ethos is indivisible, indivisible from how Barcelona could conceives of itself uh on the on the football pitch and um the theory of football, if you like, and for sure that's where again I would say that that's where Pep uh got his got that um yeah got got that legacy from. Uh thanks uh Declan. Uh what should our next uh just to trail our next role? Do you have any any preferences?

SPEAKER_02 24:14

We we could maybe we could either do you know structure uh central defenders who were great players, but inspirational leaders, and I'm thinking you know, the John Terry's the Tony Adams and Canavaro's, uh the those those types of players. Um or you know, again, we could just pick another position.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

No, the centre back centre backs is good. Centre back strikes me as being great. Yeah, the the pillar, the um the individuals who, if you were going to war, you would put right in the center of your rags. Let's go for the centre set centre backs.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Because normal normally those players have an imposing presence from a physical physicality perspective. They're nor normally larger than life characters, and and that would also translate nicely into you know this modern day set pieces, corners, free kicks, and particularly long throws, and how influential they are, particularly the two Arsenal defenders, uh at uh at getting on the end of the ball. So no, I let's do that. Let's do central defenders. Great, centre backs it is. Talk soon. Right. Thanks, John.