WORLD CUP ETC - FEATURE SERIES: Positions & Their Roles - Center Backs

Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio continue their analysis of the varying identities of the different positions on the football pitch. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Welcome back to the World Cup Excellent, where we're returning to this regular series on football positions and what defines them, as well as looking at some of the greatest exponents of their trade in those positions. As per usual, I'm joined by Declan Link and his incisive uh knowledge. Uh today, Declan, welcome to the show. As ever, once again. Uh, today we're looking at the centre back.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Thank you, and good evening, JB. Thank you for having me on this email.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

No, look, you know, you what would uh what would World Cup etc. be without uh without um Declan Link? We should discuss at some point because I sometimes refer to us as the Musketeers. At some point we should break down which of the Musketeers each of us is, but that's not for um that's not one for today. Declan, um centre backs. I have a difficult question for you, an existential question about centre backs to start off with. When we talk about centre backs, can we actually talk about them as individuals or do we have to name two together?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

I think with the evolution of that position on the football pitch, I think you can talk about them together because they're often called a defensive partnership, uh, particularly in the modern day game where you have a right quite often a right footed left uh centre back and a left footed centre back, or obviously if you have three at the back, they uh there is a real partnership between the three of them. So I I I think I think it the term can be usually loosely used for both, and uh I think it's individuals because of some of their characteristics, specifically the characteristics that I'm sure we're gonna get into in our conversation, personality-wise, playing-wise, etc. etc. However, I also think uh uh a traditional four defenders at the back with a right back and a left back, that is definitely a partnership. Your thoughts? Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Because you definitely can't have a centre back making decisions um of his or her uh just uh on on a whim. They they have to part of the the sort of the central characteristic of a centre back is and almost the sort of the the primordial defining point is that they have to know where their partner is. Of course, if it's a three, they have to know where the other two are. There's it's a little bit looser there, but certainly as a as a centre back pairing, that final wall, the final line of defense. Almost the most important thing you have to know, or the instinct you have to have, is where your other half is, I think it's fair to say.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

I I actually think as you know, I always do deep research, and I saw a quote which I think is very pertinent on our discussion today, where it says the history of the centre-back or it or in parentheses, central defender, is really the story of how football itself itself has evolved from chaotic attack-heavy beginnings into the structured tactical game that we know nowadays. And I think that's very true because back in the 1800s through to the uh 1920s, there were the last line of defense, they didn't have centre backs, central defenders in those days. There was basically two fullbacks at the back. So the formations typically were two, three, five. And over the over the years, uh the decades, it's really evolved nowadays into you know what what really is a modern day centre back from really sort of 2010 to present, where you know the the the the the the the sort of job description is highly highly complicated, and and you know they have they have responsibilities to not only just defend specific players, but they're just they're they're defending spaces, areas on the pitch. You know, they're expected to play progressive passes, handle high defensive lines, be very comfortable in possession, and sometimes step into midfield. And and obviously, I'm sort of jumping ahead here, gone straight to the modern-day uh center back, but really elite examples of of everything I just said there encompasses those attributes. Are players like Virgil van Dyck, Sergio Ramos, and John Stones from Manchester City.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, and actually, I mean I remember giving away my age, and I'm I'm sure that you remember this too, Declan. There was a time not that long ago, a generation ago, where actually a centre back being comfortable in possession was almost a black mark against uh the centre mark, the centre back. It almost made them sort of a champagne Charlie as regards an individual. There was there was a time again, not that long ago, probably early 90s was the latest that we saw of that prior to sort of um uh the globalization of of football, in which a centre back basically had uh a particular role, and it was to stop attackers getting through them, to push them out wide, and not to not to think above their station. Of course, now that, as you say, with some of those individuals has completely changed. And arguably, some central defenders now they continue to be. I don't know when we spoke about goalkeepers last time, you said about how they were they were units, centre backs, of course. They're probably alongside the goalkeeper, the next biggest unit. But it's not enough, as with the goalkeeper, to just be a solid physical presence these days. You also have to be incredibly flexible, quick, uh dynamic, highly skilled. Um, I mean, arguably it's one of the positions um which has evolved most rapidly in football in the last generation.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Well, I even going back to I just mentioned the 1920s, but but I saw an example, and I completely agree agree with this, uh, with the evolution of the centre back. In the 1800s, basically the job was clear the ball. Very basic, a bit like when we talked about the goalkeepers. What's your basic number one smash it job description? Get the ball, keep the ball out of the goal. So back in the 1800s, it was clear the ball, 1920s. It was clear the ball and mark the striker, and then period of 40 years or so up to the 1960s was read the game. And that obviously Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Moore immediately come to mind then. In the 1980s, the the job responsibility with all of the the aforementioned attributes that I just mentioned, it was uh more like hold the defensive line, it was it was starting to get a lot more tactical in the 1990s. It was win the physical jewels, and then nowadays, really all over the world are required to do is to do everything that evolved over that period of since the really the 1800s. Now they have to defend and build and control tempo as well as everything else. So there's no question it's a very, very, very responsible job, and uh uh you know throw in the modern day game, particularly in the UK, with all of the set pieces where Arsenal are flourishing and they've set a pattern for long launch the long ball into the box. Who are the ones who's who's are the ones players on the pitch who are who are required and expected to get on the end of it? It's the central defenders. Look at the England game against Japan on Tuesday night. What did Thomas Duchal do seven minutes from the end of the game? He threw on Dan Pern and Harry McGuire. So, you know, the the the the the evolution is quite incredible how it's happened over the years from you know the very early days where the only thing they had to do was clear the ball.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, and actually, as we spoke about with goalkeepers, central defenders and and arguably sort of left backs and right backs now, almost as important as defending is re-initiating attacks. Interesting you said about how you should speak about Harry Maguire because I wonder whether to some extent Harry Maguire's perceived physical attributes stand against him because he, although he is very comfortable on the ball and he brings it out of defense really effectively, there's there's um, I guess sort of physically in terms of how he um his presence on the field that he he does feel a lot like a throwback um to sort of times gone by. And I wonder sometimes whether that sort of stands against him from a coach's perspective. He doesn't look as though he has somebody, I mean he's an incredibly effective individual, but he doesn't look as though he has somebody who has the sort of the the flexibility of the of the Virgin Van Dyke or even the sort of the the Yap Stam or the Sammy Hippia, uh those kinds of figures.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

I think I think the big knock on on Harry Maguire, and I I'm I'm actually quite a big fan of his, is his lack of pace. And obviously, the the bigger the unit, as you said, uh the goalkeepers are, the uh the bigger the units are as central defenders. Most of the time they're going to be slower than some of the fast, nippy forwards, finding the holes, finding the little pockets of space around them. So that's his limitations are is that he is relatively slow, and good teams, particularly as we as we come up to the World Cup, will take full advantage of that. But offensively, and uh from a from a character perspective, from a from a personality perspective, he he is you know he is a very, very good player. As we're seeing on Tuesday night at Wembley, where he came on, England had a corner kick, he got his big old nog-in on it, his slap head, and the goalkeeper made a very good save. Straight off the corner.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

And I guess that's part of my point, because I think to some extent, sort of he resembles the sort of the English figures of yesteryear, the Terry Butchers, the Bobby Moore's, to some extent the John Terry's um as well. And although I think he has a lot more um sort of broad, wide-ranging capacity, I think that's just a prejudice to to him as individual because he does seem to be a throwback.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah, no, no, no, no question about it. And and again, uh what what I actually like, and I can't believe we're spending so much time talking about Harry McGuire, but he's actually shown an immense character, an immense resolve to to deal with all some of the off-field stuff he's had to deal with, some of the derision he's had over the years, the fact that Manchester United did try and get rid of him on multiple occasions, and ultimately he, based on the season he's had, and probably not playing European games, getting knocked out of the the cup competitions on his COP team, Man United, has probably put him in the conversation to make the play into the United States. So he has his limitations, but he is he he's not what I would call a classic modern day central defender. As as I said, you know, though those types of players are the Van Dijk's who I think's great, he's just getting you know ages catching up on him now. Sergio Ramos in his prime was fantastic, and and then John Soames, if he could stay, if he could stay fit and healthy, uh would be because he's a big old guy, he's very fast, he can read the game, he can play in midfield, holding midfield, but he's not he's always injured. Although actually for England, he he does actually seem to miss out in a World Cup year a lot of Man City games and ends up finding it himself thick for the World Cup. So fingers crossed that's what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

Yeah, and just just staying on English central defenders through history for for a moment. I think what you say about the resolve, the steal of these individuals. Again, uh, I mean, almost if you think through history of your classic English centre-back, the the image that comes to mind is of Terry Butcher with a bandage around his head bleeding, bleeding through it. The sort of it's it's less about the skill on the ball than it is about the character uh of the man. And it seems to me that that's um you know, we've spoken many times about the sort of defining characteristics of what makes what gives a national side identity and character. But historically, that would be almost one of the things you would point to most about um English traditional strengths, would be the spine, would be the strength of the spine, would be the immobility. Didn't matter if they got turned around and beaten, but you were never going to go through them.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

Interesting, John. That as it relates to you, you're talking about English central defenders, but obviously relating it to World Cup, etc., and the history of the World Cup, in the top ten central defenders of all time, there is only one English player mentioned, and that is Bobby Moore, who captained us in in 1966. The the greatest centre backs from the research I've done is first and foremost Franz Beckerwald from West Germany, who was the winner in 1974 and the runner up in 66. And he was at the time he was able to revolutionize the role as a sort of what they call a ball-playing sweeper, controlled the games from the back like a midfield player, and arguably the influential defensive player in World Cup history. Bobby Moore is listed as second, and now I'm going to go through a list of incredible names from the history of primarily European top teams and uh Brazil and Argentina.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Just before you give us the list, just before you give us a list, second, can I just can I just express disappointment that it's Bobby Moore that's in a number two in a number two and not Sol Campbell?

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Sol Campbell did get an honourable mention at one point. Anyway, you also mentioned John Terry. He's uh a lot of people around the world don't like John Terry, even though he he was he had a lot of the attributes, both internationally of Chelsea, that a proper central defender has, but so did Tony Adams. So third one is Franco Baresi from Italy. He was a World Cup runner up in 1994. Uh he's classified as a master of the defensive lineup and the offside trap, obviously classic Italian strategy at the back. Uh he was injured in the 1994 final in Pasadena, and he still dominated that game, even though he was injured. The other one who who you know we can wax lyrical about is uh Paolo Maldini. He played both centre back and left back, uh played forever, it seemed like he was uh his versatility at the at the highest level was incredible. Another Italian, surprise, surprise, Fabio Canavero, who was the the the uh the Italian World Cup winner in 2006, and he had an incredible tournament, that tournament. And he wasn't even tall, he was he was you know your size, five foot seven, five foot eight. But um he uh he he was outstanding in every aspect and really helped push Italy to win that World Cup in 2006 and Germany. Um one of the when we get on to the 1970 World Cup, where you know we will be really, really emotional in many respects about how could that 1970 uh Brazil World Cup winning team was. The they their centre back was Carlos Alberto Torres. I don't remember him because I was six years old at the time, but he was somewhat famous as a right back, but often played centrally, and you know his attributes were leadership, technical quality, and defence. I think our friend Gordon is a big, big fan of yet another Italian centre defender who comes in at number seven, whose name I had to spell frenetically just so I'd get it right. Uh, this is someone who won the World Cup in Italy in in uh 1982. Uh, that's Gaetano Scirea. He was a very famous Italian guy that which would make sense because I've heard Gordon talk about him before, and that was one of the most influential World Cups. Gordon impacted Gordon, his is his view on war football. I remember very clearly Daniel Pasarella from Argentina, a World Cup winner in 1978, very aggressive. He was a goal scoring centre back, very strong leader and organizer, and one of the most one of the one of the earliest sort of what they would call complete centre backs. And then number nine is predictably Marseille Marcel Desai from France, when they had that fantastic World Cup win in 1998. And last but not least, Sergio Ramos from Spain, who again was a winner in 2010, 2010. Aggressive technical, massive goal threat, massive personality, and uh at the time was a perfect fit for Spain's possession system, you know, almost like being that bridge into what is now a modern-day centre back where he was hydroid, he was a defender, he was a playmaker, and he could also score goals.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah, but Sergio Ramos played um for Real Madrid, so I think we can basically just strike him off the list.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Um I don't think I ever saw him play live, but Virgil van Dijk is obviously legendary, uh, both for the Netherlands and for Liverpool, and before that, Celtic and Southampton. Ronald Kuhlman, uh, he was an elite ball player, he gets an engine. Lucio, who was uh outstanding in 2002 in Japan and Korea. But the one I actually find quite funny because I I actually thought he was a fairly ugly fella, he wasn't handsome like us guys, was Carlos Puyot from uh Barcelona, who was the centre back at the back of the uh Spanish team when they won in South Africa. Uh, but he just didn't never seem to be a particularly uh, you know, like a classic mold of the what we're talking about with regards to the centre back. You assuming that you are not a big fan of Real Madrid, John, um I'm assuming you're then a Barcelona fan, are you?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Um so I given the um sort of the the series on Spain that I did, I I just have issues with what Real Madrid represents historically. And whilst I'm no Catalan independentist, um Barcelona as a footballing side have been the the the most palpable and tangible representation of an opposition to to Real Madrid. I think interesting that you meant you should mention Puyol because Puyol and Sergio Ramos actually they occupied similar um periods of time, and the differences between the two men was was pretty stark. There was actually a period of time when Puyol, now we're going off on a tangent here a little bit, but Puyol for a while was almost refusing to play for the Spanish national time, uh, for the national side, um, because Catalonia have a national side as well. They don't represent um Catalonia in international competitions, but there was sort of this drive to allow them to reach those kinds of levels, and Puyol always gave uh preference to or tried to give preference to to Catalonia over um over over Spain. And Puyol to some extent is uh is actually more of a sort of an English centre back in with those names that we mentioned before. He just has a uh I mean he was okay on the ball, but definitely wasn't anything incredible, but he was just really a really solid presence, and again, he just had this sort of character and drive and and resolve. Um, Declan, can I just say, just in terms of your pronunciations, um, I'm disappointed that you've been doing some homework in terms of trying to get them right, because I think it is important to mention that at least a small percentage of our listeners come to the show to hear your creative pronunciations uh around um around complex names. So so yeah, feel free to go with whatever pronunciations come come to mind rather than trying to get it. Um I think that's probably better for our for our listener numbers than it is us trying to pronounce things um correctly.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

And John, I would love to spell uh because you you you go into your Spanish sounding names uh extremely well. You just completely like a hand in glove change from your your your English accent into your uh Spanish speaking accent. And and I was very conscious when I was interviewing Cookie about the US national team and the two games and and their chances to the World Cup. I was very conscious I was like going into an American type of Lilt thing because he was bringing it out of me. So hopefully, the more I talk to you, the more I'm gonna be able to properly pronounce some of these uh sexy sounding uh Latino Spanish Italian names. Well, there won't be too many Italian names placed on the internet.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

If we're taking if we're taking me as a high watermark on anything, Declan, I think we've got some serious problems. Um let let's Come to French centre backs because there was a period. I I thought it was um great that you mentioned Marcel de Sailly, because uh there was definitely a period where almost the French centre backs and their sort of pro proliferation into international leagues was sort of uh it uh provided a new generation of what the centre back could look like. Of course, they didn't all exist at the same time, but you've got you probably your earliest iteration, maybe as in regards to Laurent Blanc, and then your Dessailles, and then most uh recently you sort of Lili M2 Rams. The other thing which struck me about these the lists of um centre backs, which you've been which you've mentioned, is that is how many of them actually managed to play both at centre back and either at left or right back as well, who sort of had transferable skills across the back four.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

You know, you've hit on something there because you think across the top the top, and and I think this is what we were sort of saying on an earlier podcast is just the French squad is so loaded, it's incredible. Because now I'll just read off these names of of all of the possible uh combinations or individual central defenders for the current French team, not mentioning any of the ones that you just mentioned, but you have uh Canati from Liverpool, Saliba from uh Arsenal, Umpa, here we go, and here's another one, Umpa Metcano from Bayern Munich. That's what we come to the podcast for. Maxence Lacroix from Central Tennessee, Jules Condé from Barcelona, and those are all players playing in the one or two positions, depending on on what formation they play, as going to be competing. So some of them are gonna miss out on the the actual French squad that goes on the Air France plane to to the United States this summer. But they've got some other amazing emergent alternative options as well. You've got Lena Yoro from Manchester United, you've got a Nice player called Todebo, Jean Clairbo. Actually, my French is all right to be fair. Wesley Farner from Chelsea, another Chelsea player, Benoit Gladichil. And um, so yeah, I mean, for whatever reason, the the French national teams over the years have been absolutely loaded in that central defender position.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, I and I think it's also an interesting point about um these different on-field positions that we talk about, because I also think that there are certain countries that have that the sort of the national characteristic relates itself more to certain positions on the field than others. And there's some there's definitely something about the French character that seems to emerge at its most um is is its most sympathizes with this sort of um strong, impenetrable uh defensive wall, but which is also fluid and can play out of the back um as well. I mean, much more so than perhaps in in in in different countries. Um, I mean, I wonder whether, you know, if we think about, say, again, we're sort of going off on a tangent here, but if we think about the German national side, it's an open question, I think, maybe for listeners, but also maybe for us to cover further down the line. Is there um do different nations have a particular affinity to certain role, character character-wise to certain roles on the field?

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Uh I definitely think so. Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously we with some of the other positions we've already talked about. Some some some nations will focus on the attacking players, the the traditional sort of centre forward, the wide players. Um some some, you know, like we were just saying with the all the historical Italians, because Italians or the Italian club teams and the Italian national team have traditionally always been very, very thorough defensive teams, and they're schooled in that from when they're little kids all the way up to when they're playing the highest level professionally. I think you know the England team, for example, or the home countries, you know, they always typically have strong midfield players in particular. Uh, but obviously, without getting specific, you're generalizing because it comes generationally, generationally when these different players come along. But I do think we've hit upon something there, that France has a rich history in producing centre backs.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um, just as we as we finish, as we c as you round up, Declan, can I just add um another sort of left field comment, which is I think that if in order to be a top-level centre back, you really need a surname which um which sums up your position and what it is that you are. So I'm gonna bring up Spanish central defender Fernando Hierro as being the apotheosis of this kind of figure, because hierro, of course, means there you go, my Spanish pronunciation. Uh hierro means iron in Spanish. So, what better name for a centre back than Fernando Iron representing Spain uh in the Fernando Yo, is that right? Hierro, hierro. You need to roll your R on that one.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

That's that reminds me of uh Dr. Camill Rincon, who was my Colombian uh team manager on one of my sons, one of my kids' teams for many years. Love, lovely fella, doctor here in Orlando at Florida Hospital. And he could never say, as the Latin Americans do, yellow card. They like to put their fingers up in the air and do a pretend yellow card, and he would always call it a jello card. So it's that surname is a little bit like Camilo Rincon say Jell O card, jello card, jelly card.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah, there was a there was a friend who years ago he was really terrible with Spanish, and he went to he had um he had a back pain, and he went to this is a true story, and he went to the doctor here in in Mexico, and and uh he should have said that his espada, his back hurt, but instead he mispronounced it and he said that his espada hurt, and the doctor looked to him strangely because espada is sword. So he um he uh unashamedly stood in front of the doctor and told him that he had a problem with the pain in his sword. Um, and he didn't couldn't work out why it wasn't resolved. Listen, I think as soon as we get off this recording, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna go back into the podcast settings and I'm gonna add comedy as a subheader because I think we're now into into that realm.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

I'll tell you a very quick one what's got absolutely nothing to do with the World Cup. When I started uh at college paying, there was one other English guy starting with me, Simon Ilman from Hem or Hempstead. He got a sore ankle in practice in preseason, and he heard about Sister Kate. So he turned up at Sister Kate's office on campus to for her to examine his ankle. He thinking that she was a nurse. Needless to say, the Catholic nun didn't really have any idea what to do with his ankle.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Oh dear. Um that's a good note, I think, on on which to to finish. But uh again, I know that uh Paul is um as well, Paul Schmidt Troschke is organizing our premium content, and I think a lot of these anecdotes, I don't know how we've got from central defenders and their characteristics to um to this, but this is where this is where we are. Declan, uh, as ever, thanks uh thanks so much for your time. And I look forward to talking uh on the uh on the next one in this little in this little series of ours. What uh what do you think the next position should be that we discuss? Well, let me put that back to you and you pick a position. You throw me under the bus. Um so we've done we've done a wing. We we should probably do um wing backs, I think, because wing backs are quite distinctive, aren't they? They're not they're not wingers that we've done, um, but they're it's a fairly sort of modern distinctive uh role, which to some extent also doesn't quite exist in the same way as it did in the 90s and noughties. Um how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Yeah, that sounds perfectly fine. I'm sure there's plenty of uh modern day examples uh with the continuation of the different systems that teams are employing, uh, together with obviously there's gonna be a uh historical link to that as well. So wingbacks, it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Totally. We can mention um uh which uh I had hoped never to do, we can mention Roberto Carlos and Ashley Cole in the same in the same sentence. Sounds like a plan. All right, take care, thanks, Deku. Thanks, John.