DISCUSSION: Arteta & Guardiola

After Manchester City's crucial 2-1 defeat of Arsenal in the English Premiership, Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio look at the ongoing football relationship between Mikel Arteta and Pep Guardiola. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Welcome back to the World Cup of Special today after Manchester City's 2-1 win over Arsenal, kicking life back into the English Premiership title race. We are going to discuss the master and the apprentice, Guardiolo and Mikhail Arteta, and the dynamic between the two individuals. And who better to get into the entrails of this relationship and what it is, how it's evolved, and what it means today than footballing surgeon Declan Link. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Good evening, John. I'm just in the middle of taking my scrubs off right now, so just bear with me for another four seconds, and then I'll be in no problem.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

I can I can apologize for for for uh almost mispronouncing the most basic name in football, Pep, a minute ago, uh, as I introduced the the show. And I think uh Declan that is to do with your viral influence as regards mispronunciations, which uh which I'm struggling to resist. It's a bit like getting the yips. You know how um uh sort of penalty takers sometimes get the yips that uh I I don't know if uh our friend Paul Schmidt Troschka knows uh the uh has heard the term in English, the yips. I used to get it when I used to bowl in cricket all the time. Sometimes you just can't even find uh the square, and I now seem to have um get got the yips around even basic words, and I I put I fully blame you for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Well, I I was actually a very good young tennis player for many, many years, and I ended up really losing interest in playing tennis a few years ago because same sort of thing. I got the yips when I throw the ball up for serving, they'll be all over the place. So I'd ended up just stopping playing, and you know, with with the the the other types of tennis games are getting very popular in the world now. I'm I'm just I get asked to play tennis all the time, but because of the the the yips, I uh I just don't want to play it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's um I know we're sidetracking here, this has nothing to do with well, I mean, maybe it does, because maybe Mikel Arteta has the yips as regards um uh the sort of the tail end of the season and and winning trophies. I mean, it's pretty well documented now that um in com uh statistical comparison between Guadiola and Arteta, that Guadiola has his best results, his best monthly results in uh on the April coming to the close of every premiership season when all the trophies are up for grabs, and Miko Arteta has his worst month of the of the sort of the of the football season in in April as regards results as well. And and I think you can't, you know, that's not an accident, surely, if um that that sort of the polar opposition, uh, I think I would argue tells you something about the fact that maybe it's you could argue that Guadiola has um has a sort of a veteran nature, an ongoing desire to do well, and and he's a unique coach in and of itself. But it seems to me that you know those um given those stats that Arteta has a problem.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

John, you really are truly a world-class journalist managing to connect the yips, my mispronunciation of different words, which you two find a hoot, and our topic of conversation tonight. Uh let me see, give me marks out of 10 for Pep Guadiola and Mikhail Arteta.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, I did tete on uh tet 10 out of 10 on both. Good, good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Anyway, well, why don't we get into it? Because uh everyone's falling asleep around the world.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah, so does Arteta have a problem? I mean, given those statistics, does Arteta have a problem?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I think the statistics don't lie at all. I mean and he doesn't do himself any favours at all. You know, in my family, I have a a Chelsea supporter, and uh Manchester United supporter and a Tottenham supporter, and they all absolutely detest Mikel Arteta. They he really, really uh turns them off. And and here with my group of friends here in Orlando, there's two Gooners. There's um Green E and uh Wivy, Livy, who was on the France 1998 podcast. They're the only ones who bow down to Arteta. Absolutely everyone here in my social circles detest him because of the way he he he presents himself, both in training, sometimes in interviews, and sometimes uh with some of the shenanigans he gets up to. But then more than anything, I think in him jumping up and down like uh uh a Mexican uh hot bean on the side of the on the touchline, it really seems to get people's goat up. But uh, you know, again, at the end of the day, what you said is is true and accurate. Manchester City normally finds some rare form in the last two or three months of the season. Arsenal have been perennial bridesmaids for the last X number of years, and I think they've they've probably blown it today.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, and in what it was an infamous now infamous event this week, Mikkel Arteta lit a f actually lit a fire at uh at training as he asked for his team to um to go to the Etehad to play in a match against Manchester City and demonstrate fire, which they haven't demonstrated certainly for the last few few weeks. Can we just sort of um break down a little bit what it is about Arteta that turns off uh people in your family and your and your contacts? Um I mean, is it that he is it his arrogance? Is it his the fact that he doesn't seem to really be connected to any kind of reality? Is it I mean what what would you say it is that it's not doesn't even in in in in engender an indifference, but actually something close to loathing?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

Well, I don't see that because I'm a Cossack Guna, being uh not a big Tottenham fan, by default I'm a Closet Guna. So I actually don't mind Arteta one bit. But you know, as I said, virtually everyone I speak with who's not an Arsenal fan detests him for whatever the reasons are. I mean, and and it interestingly with the relationship with with with Pep and Mikel Arteta, it's it's almost like they gone through from when they first met at Barcelona in the 1990s as as a sort of got they've gone through the range of being a um uh pep has been a mentor, they've been collaborators together when when Pep invited Arteta onto his coaching staff after he retired playing, and then now they're they're rivals. So the the relationship is is absolutely fascinating. And you know, when they first met, you know, just to give you an idea of the age difference, Guardiola was a first team star with Barcelona while Mikel Alteta was a teenager at the famed Academy La Masaya. Um and Arteta said Guadiola was someone he looked up to, almost a role model. So I don't know if although they definitely have had some spiky games, they seem to get on well together, they say all the right things about their relationship. I wonder if if there's just a bit of intimidation that Arteta has from whenever he comes up against his mentor, and until he actually pushes it over the line, until he actually wins the Premier League or a uh a cup final uh or the Champions League, and and and they go on to you know have renewed confidence, he and and the team, then I think this could go on because you know the old expression in England, they are serial bottlers.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, and I think that's a really good point that you that you sort of intimate that the age difference between the two men is actually not that great. It's not it's not generational, they're just a different point of their of their their careers. I also think that it's um that this year has been interesting because uh we know what kind of football Guadiola stands for. And uh I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but he's never really compromised that. I mean, there is some sort of real politique to how he sets up his side, it changes it a little bit. But basically, the Guardiola way is the Croyff way, it is the Barcelona way. It was interesting today when Manchester City went 2-1 up that they didn't close, um, they didn't try and sort of close the door on the game, they actually pushed forward even further. And then the reason I say this is because it seems to me that Arsenal have changed their uh their way of playing this year. They've sort of um they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and they said, okay, enough of that. We don't believe in that way of playing anymore. And now we're gonna go for this sort of, we're gonna set up tight, we're gonna um uh we're gonna make sure that we are uh that we don't um, you know, this sort of perception that emerged under Wenger that they were that they weren't up for a fight, that they were that was gonna be something that they they pushed back on. And you'll remember the day, the days, Declan, of the of the chant echoing across Highbury of 1-0 to the Arsenal. Um that was never compromised at all. And then we had the period of Wenger, where suddenly the total beautiful football with a spine at its best, with these sort of Emmanuel Petit and the Patrick Vieiras came into the Martin Keones, the Tony Adams, uh David Siemens came came into play. And now we that to some extent, I feel that the Arteta, the beginning of the Arteta project, uh brought together, was forced into bringing together um the the legacy of Wenger and how he played football and the expectations uh of the Arsenal fan, alongside what Arteta learnt under Guadiola. But to some extent, this year has been about no, we're gonna win, and that's the most important thing, gonna change how we how we play. And so, what I would argue is that if Arsenal don't make it to the premiership this year, that it's even more of a defeat because they've thrown out their values, and they I I would say they don't really know what they stand for anymore in the way that they used to it over the last few years, arguably a generation.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, little little known fact, which um that one nil to the Arsenal chant that you just referenced. Do you know where that came from, who the manager of Arsenal was at the time? Well, I remember it ringing out when George Graham was was around. George Graham was my youth team manager for my last two years at Queens Park Rangers when uh when I was a junior there. So we I've witnessed the early stages of of George Graham, who was very, very good friends with Terry Venables, who was the first team coach. He had just retired. So George Graham was my coach uh in the juniors uh when he was the other under 18s, when I was 17 and 18, and and there was the early signs, even in our QPR youth team, who were very, very good, that uh the Arsenal were going to when when he managed the first team level uh in the top leagues, that he was going to adopt those type of strategies, and it did become famous or infamous, the 1-0 to the Arsenal. Uh going on with what you're saying about the the similarities or differences, I actually think there's a bit of a like a lazy take on Arteta that you know he's just a copy of Pet Guardiolo, and nowadays all he does the style of play, the build-up, the structure, the control, patience, etc. etc. They're very similar. And now Arteta just is really dependent on the on the set pieces and and the long throws. I I think it's more than that. I think the foundations of their belief in how to play football, how to coach football, uh are really quite shared. But I think they have a complete diff well, not a complete, but uh uh division on the way of execution, risk, risk tolerance, and and the physical demands on the teams, the way that Guadiola's teams play and Arteta's teams play are completely different. Uh, and and what I mean by that is Guadiola's teams you know are consistently year on year very similar, obsessed with with perfect positional spacing. They use very highly choreographed structured, particularly the 3-2 build-up. And then every every player knows his responsibilities, which again is why some of these creative players that we've talked about, uh, particularly uh Jack Grealish, and to a certain extent, maybe even Phil Foden nowadays, you know, they they occupy a fixed zone and they're there to create passing triangles everywhere all over the field. Whereas Arteta uses his foundation, it is a somewhat similar type of shape, a 3-2 or 2-3, but they have more fluid rotations and the fullbacks invert but not always symmetrically like Guadiolas do. So, you know, Guadiola has this feeling and belief in positional purity, whereas Arteta is is positional structure and a certain amount of situational freedom. So I don't want to get too technical technical like we're doing our badges here or anything, but where Arteta, in my opinion, has really diverged, particularly in the last in the in the last season, which is now everyone else is doing it, uh Guadiobo's teams tend to prioritize technical security, ball retention, and the physicality is is secondary to control. You look at the size of their players, a lot of their players are smaller technical players. Whereas our Arteta's teams nowadays are built to win jewels everywhere on the field. They're very tall, pretty much most of them are pretty tall, and it's height on set pieces, strength in midfield, and aggressive pressing contact. Uh, and Arsenal are, which is why they're doing very well in the Champions League, one of the most physically dominant teams in in Europe, which is why they're in the Champions League semi-finals.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's an argument that to say that, at least to some extent or from a particular perspective, that they're actually evolving back into the old, into the old um Arsenal. I think this there's definitely one of the things that was interesting to me from the perspective of watching them sometimes is that they're both very prickly. It's actually quite interesting to see how easy it is to get under the skin of both men. When things are going really well, they're going really well and they're all smiley and uh and chatty. But as soon as um there are points of weakness, and I think this goes back to the to the to the psychology component as well, um, sort of points of weakness or that are that are demonstrated that they they they're both very quick to lash out and actually say things perhaps that you that you might regret. And of course, we we see that we've almost seen it to the beginning of every premier um premiership campaign now with Guardiola for for a while now because they start notoriously patchally. Uh, but as soon as we get into this, and and in and in the Champions League, I think, as well, too, with with Guardiola. I might just get you to to comment on that because it seems to me that Guardiola um psychologically in the premiership is a different beast to how he is in the Champions League. But certainly um the fact that uh Arteta knows what the discourse as much as he is spouses, and he would say that he doesn't listen to these um to these discussions and that it's not relevant to him, he knows what is hanging, you know, the the noose that is hanging over his head as regards this the the bottling um component. I think both men when when things don't go swimmingly do react in a in a in a similar way. But yeah, Deka, maybe you can just pick up on this um uh on Guardiola in the Champions League again uh versus the the the premiership.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah, he's he's obviously I mean in my opinion, he's the greatest coach of all of all time, arguably. And he's you know it's a gun, you know, the big asterisk comes down to until the FA come up with whatever these charges are, because it is yeah, ultimately they might we might all be looking back at this period of dominance by Manchester City and saying everything should have an asterisk next to it because they were cheating the rules all over the place. But if you just part that to one side, I mean I don't know if you actually saw the game today, but the at one point to your point, the TV cameras panned over to and they had Arteta standing perfectly normal on the side, and and and Guadioli was doing a very extreme Arteta uh impression in the background. He looked like he was completely losing it, like a like a seven-year-old kid who'd had his toys stolen. Um, but I think he's given a bit more wiggle room with the British media when it comes down to the antics that are going on, but he's also, you know, most probably coming to the end of his tenure with Manchester City. So, you know, he's and he's won everything. So he's he there's there's he doesn't have the pressure on him that Arteta does. But you know, there's definitely a school of thought that says when uh when Guadiola has over the years got into the knockout rounds of the Champions League, he has overcomplicated things, and you know, when he's playing in the Premier League, I look at it that Guadiola is almost like we spoke about it on a previous podcast, almost like a chess mark chess master, where he's in control, every move is calculated, and everyone knows what they're doing. Whereas when he has in recent years been coaching in some of these games against the big European teams, he has lost the games through almost the opposite, by not calculating moves and not showing control and overcomplicating. Whereas the analogy I use with Arteta is that he has the chess masterpiece, although the master is questionable at the moment, but it's it's a it's a combination with Arteta of chess and boxing. And what I mean by that is structure and physical dominance and willing to engage in chaos and disrupting when needed. So, you know, again, I I have uh the utmost respect actually for both of them, to be honest with you, because Arsenal are in so much better place than they are than they were in 2019 when he joined. And I do feel that when they do win something, although I do question whether or not they're going to win the Champions League, because Bayern Munich and PSG were fantastic, uh, and they probably you know shot themselves today with the loss against City. I still believe that Arsenal shouldn't do anything differently. I think the uh American owners should continue to bark to back Arteta, and he just needs to hopefully, with a bit more experience, just calm down, and sooner or later he'll get it over the line.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Well, that's the thing, is um he can be calm when you when it's okay to be calm, but can he maintain that composure when it's slightly more more complicated? It goes back to that old line from Mike Tyson, everyone's got a plan until you get smacked in the face. And in April, Arsenal and Arteta keep getting keep getting smacked in them in the face before the match. So I'm not I'm not sort of saying this with hindsight, but it it struck me as interesting because I sort of did a mental analysis in my own head. And and it struck me that if you if you think that there are five possible results in any in any given match, so bear with me. So one uh possible result would have been for Arsenal to have thrashed Manchester City, second possible result for Arsenal just to have beaten Manchester City by a goal or so. Obviously, the middle result is a draw, and then the other two results would have been Manchester City to just beat Arsenal, and then the fifth one to thrash Arsenal. Seemed to me that actually all results were possible except for there was no way on earth that Arsenal were going to thrash Manchester City, and it just struck me that that was interesting, that that was completely off the table. But you could have seen Manchester City come out and absolutely do a massive number on Arsenal, but that the reverse of that possibility was um was completely unlikely. And arguably that would have been the same had you know had it been the match been a w an away game for uh for Manchester City. And I think that tells you a story really as to the the sort of the innate potential of these two teams, and of course we're in we're in April uh as well. Undoubtedly um Guadiola's uh kryptonite is the his European competition, is um uh in particular, of course, the the Champions League. And as you say, this overcomplication that that tends to take place. And I think that is a really interesting flaw that he has, almost that he thinks that he he doesn't trust the structure of suc that has led him to success with Manchester City domestically, and that he needs to throw something else into the mix. Because uh he doesn't want to be outmaneuvered in European championship. But that ultimately it ends up being self-defeat. And and and that's a pretty I mean obviously the Champions League is a different beast to the Premier Shiq, but it it I don't think I've seen, or certainly to my mind, haven't experienced a uh a coach shoot himself in the foot quite in the way that Guadiola has done uh in in the Champions League. It'd be different if he just set up the same Manchester City side, they went out and they lost. That would be different to the overcomplication he seems to indulge with.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah, and and and again, I mean, we're sort of writing Arsenal off. A lot of people are writing Arsenal off. There's still a lot of football to be played. I mean, Arsenal got five games and uh Manchester City have six games and they played Burley in in a midweek game this week, which on paper they should win. But as I've heard you say many a time, John, football's a funny old game, and just because on paper the results should go this way, it doesn't mean that they will go this way. I think a big uh factor is the psych is the psychological side, you know, that that um Arsenal really couldn't afford to lose this game. Uh if they had won the game, then they probably would would have just warped the the uh the Premier League this year. But at the moment, Arsenal's still ahead on points. Manchester City have definitely gained the upper hand and have the momentum. And then I think a crucial factor is going to be Arsenal could be distracted by their Champions League games against Athletico, and Manchester City now, a bit like Manchester United, the way it's played out this year, are just playing one game a week. They're doing proper training sessions, they're focused on on the game ahead at the weekend, uh, most of the time. Whereas Arsenal have to juggle the Champions League and the distractions of that, the physical and mental strain on their players. And at the end of the day, you know, I almost look at it, and this is an analogy I came up with. Arsenal presently, as we speak today, April the 19th, have the lead, but City are now holding the steering wheel and they're controlling everything.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Yeah. Um I let me just be clear, I I'm not, I don't think that Arteta is not a top quality manager. I think that's fairly clear. Um, I would just question if if Arsenal don't make it this time, I would question whether he can make it next time or any other time, because the weight of history does not go away, it bills all the time. And uh, I guess my argument would be that Arteta could still reach the uh the the top as regards trophies, but I wonder whether it needs him to move away from Arsenal in order to to make that um uh to make that almost pro prophecy come to pass because I I I think the if if he can't deal with the pressure of history at Arsenal as it is now, I can't see how that's gonna become any lighter year on year.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Again, uh neither of us have a crystal ball. We've got uh five five, six games to go in the league. They're gonna be compelling, they're gonna be fascinating. And and again, you know who knows what's gonna happen. And who right now, obviously talking about Tottenham, everyone thinks they're going down. Who knows? They could they could surprise everyone, win X number of games, and then end up Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Hold on a minute. There is no way that Tottenham are pulling this back now, surely.

SPEAKER_01 25:44

I did say to my Tottenham supporting friends a few weeks ago, I would really love Tottenham to suffer right through to the last game and then to uh to miraculously stay up in the last game of the season. But actually, they've just not done themselves any favours at all, and maximum respect to Forrest to Leeds and uh probably West Ham tomorrow because I think Crystal Palace are going to be uh suffering a hangover from uh the conference league last week, uh the game last week in Florentina. So I think um yeah, I think they've they've definitely uh dug a massive hole for themselves and they're going down. Yeah, it'll be the nice, it'll be the loveliest stadium in the championship.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yes, absolutely. Uh prices would be lower. Um I'd be happy to go and to go and and and and visit. At this stage of the season, you need to win the games that you need to win, and that's just not happening for Tottenham. But um, we we're not talking about that. Um, Declan, we're talking about Arteta and Guardiola. Money on the table. Uh, who's gonna come out with the premiership trophy in five matches time?

SPEAKER_01 26:48

For those very reasons, the fact that Arsenal are gonna be distracted by the Champions League. And they still I I can't see them. I just can't see them because they they they could convince themselves they could get both, and as a result, they could end up with nothing. So then, you know, a very smart strategic coach would probably just go for one or the other, uh, in the in the way, you know, in the way the Tottenham coach pounded Tint that last year, uh, and that's why they won the Europa Cup. Not sure he really did really do that. I'm sorry, I'm not talking about Tottenham anymore. Um, so I would say I would say that uh Guadiola, if he's about to ride off into the sunset, is gonna win uh win and bring another Premier League trophy back to um to City this year. What about you?

SPEAKER_02 27:36

No, I absolutely I think um the way of history is very difficult um to buck. And I've seen nothing that suggests that Arsenal are capable of doing this, but I appreciate that you've brought up the name of a coach who um, you know, on in nobody's bingo card were we gonna finish the podcast uh uttering his name and also arguably is one of the most difficult to pronounce in football. Angie Postacoglu. How did I do, Declan?

SPEAKER_01 28:08

I'll give you nine and a half out of ten. Yeah, the Angie was a bit. You called him Angie. It's Anj. Angie. It's Anj, is it? Yeah, it's not Angie. Angie's not a lady. Ange. Anj Postacogly. Well, there you go. I'll take that back. I'll give you six and a half out of ten.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Yeah, well, so uh maybe I'm maybe Paul just has to challenge both of us on pronunciation in the world. That's a great that's a Greek Australian name. Well, thank you very much. Uh Declan, thanks uh as as ever. Uh fascinating chat. Let's see if we're both right or if we have to get new handits along for the next season. Thanks, John.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

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SPEAKER_01 28:47

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SPEAKER_02 29:05

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SPEAKER_00 29:11

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