FEATURE SERIES: Positions & their Roles - Fullbacks

Declan Link & Jon Bonfiglio continue their analysis of the varying identities of the different positions on the football pitch. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Welcome back to the Glendon Bigger here joining you from Mexico. And today we're back with a penultimate episode in our ongoing series about positions on the football field, what the roles mean, what they entail, and a look through the finest exponents of those roles over time. Today we have the right back or the left back, the old-fashioned fullback, not the wing back mind, which we covered a few weeks ago, although there may be some overlap, but the defender who plays relatively tight to a centre-back pairing on either side, whose primary role is defensive and about keeping a shape. If they do push forward, it's more to give a cross into the box than to charge up the field, beat opposition players, etc. Think Manchester United's Gary Neville, AC Milan's Paolo Maldini, and Arsenal's Lee Dixon. And to discuss the role, live from Orlando, Florida, a man whose prime as a centre forward comprised three weeks tormenting a group of 11-year-olds in 1963 is the one, the only Declan Link. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Hello, hello, John. How are you this evening? In 1963, I was minus one. I explained that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

I was trying to do the maths and to sort of um obviously just play the the old uh not very funny line about age, and I thought, well, I'll get it close and uh then I'll um then I'll amplify it a little bit just for comedy value. And uh 1963 is is what I came up with. But yeah, so you were born in 64, that's interesting. What happened in 64?

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Uh it was two years before England won the World Cup. Um what what significant uh historical event are you going to link 1964 with?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

No, I have I have no idea. I just wanted because you know how most people um uh think or or know that some particular thing happened in the year of your birth.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

So I just wanted to be I'll give you a a a bit of a link to the excuse to pun that to the World Cup as well. Uh Jack Charlton was born on the same day as me, 8th of May 1964. Oh wow, how was Jackie doing? He's not doing very well.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Did he die? Yes. No, there was that is that old Eddie Izzard joke where he's on stage. He used to do it with Frank Sinatra, and he used to in live in front of a massive audience, he would suddenly stop a show and say to the audience, Okay, and you do you hear Frank Sinatra's dead? And the audience, this is obviously before mobile phones and stuff, and the audience would go, Well, there was a big gasp in the audience, and then he'd say to them, Um, no, no, no, I'm just kidding. And then there'd be a sort of a a sigh, a release, and then he'd go back again. He'd say, No, no, no, he actually did die. So, yeah, uh my my apologies to the Charlton family.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah, they're a lovely family. I've I've met some of them, and uh, yeah, that's uh I wasn't laughing at them at all. I was actually thinking of the famous Alan Brazil story on Talksport, where he was doing an interview or having a casual conversation like we are with someone, and he they were talking about Eamon Andrews, the famous uh presenter on ITV, and he said exactly the same as you. That was that's what made me laugh.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yes, uh if if any of the Charlton family are are listening, I I doubt that you you are, but uh you know who knows, given the given the steep trajectory that our numbers are are taking. There might be a Charlton out there somewhere. I I sincerely apologise on behalf of all of us at World Cup, etc.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Very very sadly, John. Obviously, we've got uh Mexico 1970 coming up, arguably the the best World Cup ever, in many people's minds. But when I was uh trying to get some guests on that show, I actually went through the whole of the England squad from 1970 and all of the broadcasters that actually broadcasted on BBC and ITV in the UK, and sadly, probably 80% of them were all passed away now.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

I mean, it's a long time ago, isn't it? It's 56 years, and of course, people who experienced that World Cup would have um had to have been at least in their teens, and if they were working or playing at that World Cup in their 20s. So that would push them, that would put them in the late 70s, 80s. And yeah, that's um that's it at something of an age. Although if you go back in in time, of course, living to mid-70s and 80s would would have been something of a something of a pipe dream. But uh Declan, let's get on with the um with the matters at hand. The old fullback. Uh, what attributes um in your mind uh would you say that are the most important in in for that sort of well, I guess we regard as being an old-fashioned role these days, but actually still most teams shape up these days with a standard left back and right back, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:02

It depends really on the formation and and how the coach looks at things, or whether or not they're stuck in their ways in playing a 4-4-2 or a 4-1-4-1 or a 4-2-3-1, or whether or not they're you know flexible based on who they're playing, time of the year, players available, etc. etc., opposition they're playing against. But you definitely do still see in the club game and the international game uh a traditional right back and left back, quite often still. I mean, the the evolution, that's the word we keep using on these positions, the evolution of the fullback role, particularly in international football, is a bit like we talked about with the wing backs, is it's the story of the sport itself, where these fullbacks nowadays have become faster, much more tactical, and um positionally very, very fluid. So World Cups in particular, you can you can trace eras of uh when uh traditional fullbacks like we're talking about tonight were very popular, and other periods and eras when uh things changed. I mean, going back to the early uh 1930s and the 1950 period, the formations were two, three, five a lot of the time, and the fullbacks themselves basically were ex exit auxiliary centre backs where their main job was to mark wing wingers and clear danger. So they were almost like what what was called then wide stoppers, not modern fullbacks, and and then obviously as we go through the decades, the 60s, 70s, the 80s, 90s, everything has changed. Uh, and again, a bit like football is fashionable. Um, right now, I think the the modern the modern coach and the and the modern setup for teams can can include elements of the last 50 years or so um to the point where you know there there are so many attributes that these fullbacks have nowadays if if the coach decides to close additional four at the back.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, I these um strikes me that of course you know uh we we talk about evolution, but I think also sometimes it comes full circle. So almost this sort of a tide um as as footballing cultures change. I mean, of course, footballing cultures between countries, between club football, between uh international football, and um and and so on. And and uh it sort of seems to me that almost the old fashioned, well, the let's call them the sort of the defender on the flank or the the last man on the flank on either side is almost the first thing that can change depending on how football football cultures are again sort of ebbing and and flowing, because they are arguably the thing that you can sort of just shift around a little bit for either expansive or defensive effects. And also, as we've seen in football through the ages, there are periods of time where suddenly different sort of ideas come to the fore. And generally speaking, those ideas are um I mean they fit into either defensive new defensive ideas or new offensive uh ideas. It would be strange for a sort of a football thinker to bring something up which doesn't fit into one of those two uh sort of uh structures. And one of the first things that you can shift without necessarily giving everything up as regards your your historic footballing ideology is your left back and your right back. They are almost the most malleable uh positions on the team.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Yeah, I would. I mean, we spoke about the number 10, the maverick, we spoke about the wingers and probably a number nine because they're always the glory boy or girl being the sexy positions. This is arguably the the least sexiest position on the field, but modern-day football has made it a lot more exciting nowadays to be a fullback than maybe it was in the old days. Back in that period in the 1960s and 70s, that's when they say the first real sort of tactical revolution for the fullback right back left back positions actually happened, and that was because of the the the very, very famous Brazilian team and the very, very famous Italian team meeting in that final in 1970 in Mexico City, with um Carlos Alberto being the Brazilian representative and G. Acinto Fascetti. How'd you write that one? That's amazing. Being the Italian version, and and then really what tended to happen then after in the 80s and 90s, the fullbacks really became machines, they were two-way machines, they were required to defend, get up up the field, down the field, up the field, down the field, and there was there was a massive new emphasis those days on stamina and crossing. And and I'm obviously generalising there because you know, if you take a look at the Brazilian team, you take a look at Brazilian teams during those those decades, if you take a look at the uh Italian teams, if you take a look at, say, the German teams and the and the uh England team, just to take four big nations who've all won World Cups, they all adopted different types of full backs, uh, where it's led nowadays to almost like every modern day team, particularly the international teams, are trying to get as many of the attributes that Brazil used to have, Italy used to have, England used to have, and Germany used to have into one person. Which is what which is why, you know, if you look at you know the say the top 25 fullbacks of all time, or uh the 25 best World Cup fullbacks, the list is nowhere near as long as it would be for most of the other positions on the field on the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, almost a sort of a the development of a of a footballing superman. Um I wonder, given what you're saying, that you know, the three names that I listed just when I was sort of describing the kind of figure that we were we were talking about. I mean, I'm gonna leave Paolo Maldini to one side because of course he played you know generally the back of the flank, but sometimes in as a centre back. But basically, I mean he was one of the most elegant players um on the on the field.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Uh he did he did start his career as a left back, so he he probably played in these the early parts of his career uh primarily in the in the left back position, but then he morphed into a central defender, and he was you know, he's like he's in that sort of beautiful stature you get in your mind of of someone like um uh uh Beckenbauer, Maldini. Those names are all the same sort of players, and and he became a you know almost like defensive perfection, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah, totally. Again, we've spoken about time, how some um let's call them genius footballers just seem to have all the time in the world. And then when we talked about the creative midfielder, we also talked about hair and being unruffled and not sweating, and um and Maldini fits into that. You know, I mean, uh I'm sure I'm misremembering now, but it's interesting when you misremember anyway, because you know, you you misremembering or um misremembering something from history is almost you you bring together an amalgam of lots of different images, and that's the image that you you come to. And Maldini is that for me. Maldini is this sort of unhurried presence at centre back who just read who was just had all these multiple skills and could have played almost in any in any position in defense or or midfield, really. And I guess it's interesting that he he was put in those positions. I'm guessing somewhere down the line, he was just it was probably something to do with the Italian mentality that he was so good that they built a team around him at sort of centre back or or left back. But anyway, that's not my point. My point is with the other two, Gary Neville and Lee Dixon, given what we're saying about what you were saying about the development of the of the footballing Superman, um, are they figures that arguably are limited by modern standards? And would they even get a game in a sort of a modern premiership side?

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Yeah, I I would say I would refute that that they are classic, you know, the type of players that we would be talking about in the same sentence as Beckhamba and Maldini. I would rather talk about, although obviously I know Lee Dixon and and and Carrie Neville very well, that they they probably, if they really had to put their hand on their heart, would say that they were good international players, good club players, but still somewhat limited, uh, and they exceeded exceeded what you know what they really did because through hard work and organization, I would throw out the two names, uh Cafu and Roberto Carlos. Cafu was renowned for his relentless attacking runs and you know obviously was was part of a sensational um Brazilian section of players in that period when he was playing, and then the same for Roberto Carlos, who on top of that, apart from his explosive offence and his ability to get up and down the field, packed an incredible free kick. If you always remember that famous one that swerves uh like a left, I think it was a left foot banana swerving uh round the wall and into the top corner, which is always blamed on the World Cup ball.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Um yeah, no, but so now you bring up an interesting point because in my head, Cafu and Roberto and Roberta Carlos are uh wing backs much more than they are a standard left back or an or a right back. And again, in my head, the left and the right back, the reason I bring up a Gary Neville and uh uh Lee Dixon is because by definition, those two figures are I I regard them as being limited uh footballers of limited skill, but um ultra team players. And it again, in so the in in my sort of concept of what a historic standard old-fashioned, let's say, left and right back is, is you almost do want a limited player there. You want a limited player who sees I I would regard them almost as being actually really good material for really good captaincy material because there's an interesting perspective of the of what you can see from that particular position, and you know that you are a cog in a wheel. It is not about your individuality or about your uniqueness, it's how you fit into the the the the broader sort of shape and scheme of things. And and yeah, the likes of Cafu and Rebez Carlos, I absolutely completely agree that they are much more 360-degree players than the likes of Neville and Dixon, but I I just wouldn't see them as being standard um fullbacks, if you like.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Yeah, I mean, I think that the the actual configuration of the teams in that particular time period, the 44-2, you know, when you'd always have up front the big man and the small guy, and I always remember a funny uh skit on um early social media, it probably wasn't social media, but where they had uh Peter Crouch and Wayne Rooney, and they were doing a take on that. That's how a lot of the teams played in those days, 4-4-2, and they did have classic fullbacks in those teams, whereas whereas in the the 2000s to the 2010 period, the one name that comes up all the time in that period because they had become they still had a lot of the ingredients that were required in the previous 15 years or so, but the fullbacks actually became more like creators and playmakers, and what I mean by that is teams relying on them for wick as wingers tended to drift inside and not stay wide, and then they were crossing, they were doing cutbacks and the combination for it, and the name that comes up all the time is Philip Lahn from Germany in the 2014 FIFA World Cup, where he did all that, he could invert into midfield, and he was the one who dictated the tempo, not just the width. So I think that was a that was a big shift in in heading towards the modern day fullbacks, was particularly in that World Cup in 2014 with Philip La.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Can you see a um an evolution of the um of the full back uh wing back coming up of this World Cup? Can you see any teams uh don't give it, don't come up with specifics, but just thinking over across a long arc of history, can you see a um these positions evolving into something slightly different at this World Cup? Are we ready to see them take a next step forward in terms of what they look they might look like and how they might might set up? Or are we basically trapped in this sort of paradigm of you either tuck in and you're solid and defensive and you give the team a shape, or you're expansive, fast, wing back material?

SPEAKER_03 17:47

I think it's very hard to generalize, uh John. I I think nowadays the the role itself depends heavily on the system that the coach employs and believes in, and all the other things, like I said earlier on, stage of the tournament, uh opposition they're playing against, etc. etc. Because uh the the ingredients really that coaches are looking for is overlapping runners like the Cafu style of play, um, inverted full backs, um like like a Reese James, step into midfield like a Philip Lamb used to do, back three converters, where where if they're playing three at the back, and this is what Luke Shaw does for Manchester United when he's playing three at the back, he is he becomes he he is a traditional fullback on the left left side, but he becomes the left-sided um member of the three at the back if they're playing like a three-five-two or five at the back, um, or they're play play mic, you know, what what I would call playmakers from deep, like like the famous Real Madrid and Brazilian guy, Marcelo, who who was drifting all the time. And you look at some of these teams nowadays, with that we just spoke the other day about Pep, Arteta in the leagues. You know, you sometimes see these fallbacks up up in the in the in the uh penalty areas of the opposition, um, you know, closing down, trying to create uh opportunities, etc. etc. So I think again there's there's just this uh big sort of tactical trend over time where in the old days it was all of these roles were all about defend first, stay wide and deep, and minimally attacking. And nowadays it's all about control the width, control the midfield, contribute to build up play, and then more tactical decisions constantly to create situations where where um scoring chances in the opposition penalty box.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

I d I think you're right, but I I I think that's also um something we generally see when sides think that they have a level of skill or competitiveness by which they can hold the ball and control the play to some extent. Whereas I think what we're gonna see in this World Cup very clearly, especially in the early rounds, before we get into the sort of the uh some of the heavyweight contests, uh some of the meaningful, consequential heavyweight contexts uh contests later on, is we're gonna see a lot of um what would be regarded as sort of footballing imbalances. And I think that's that's where almost um seeing what the lesser teams put together and how they set up against the more dominant sides, I think is interesting because that's where so a dominant side playing against a weaker nation, against a minnow, uh that whole term is just gonna play. They're just gonna they're gonna play the percentages that they know that they've got either the strength of uh team, of squad, or individuals to be able to break those sides down. So, so in order to be able to compete, it's those um what you might term what you might consider lesser sides that have to do something slightly different. They have to play the percentages, they have to to increase their percent to a five percent um chance of winning. And and how they do that, I think they've got to spring some surprise. And in a way, I I I think that's where potentially we might see most innovation at this World Cup because what have those sides got to lose?

SPEAKER_03 21:17

I think the the the the the so-called minnows, as you call them, I think they're just gonna pack back, have a low block and try and defend and defend and defend, and then hope off of a set piece, off a a red card for an opposition player, or off um some type of uh magical moment that they score a goal. Because the the the the the difference between the top top teams and some of them as you call them the minnows that are playing this year, I don't think they're gonna have the ability to to do something out out out of left field with their fullbacks. It's all gonna be about making it as hard to break down as possible, and quite frankly, you know, some of the the the so-called minnows are not going to be able to do that. There's going to be some very lopsided scores, in my opinion, this World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see whether that whether that um whether the pressure of the tournament actually is an equalizer or we are going to see some some significant imbalance there. Uh Declan, as ever, thanks for your um time, expertise over not as many decades as I had thought. Given uh your deck your declaration of um of your birth yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

I might I might actually f um feel that age sometimes, but I look more like I'm in my mid-thirties and act like I'm in my mid-thirties. So uh I I just like hanging out with young guys like you and PST. Yeah well you know then we we we're gymmers we spend uh three hours at the gym in the morning and then three hours at the gym talk soon brilliant thanks John appreciate your time as always so that's it from us for today and if you just can't get enough of us you can support us and get access to our premium content on Patreon consisting of special interviews deep dives and QA's you will find link to our Friends of the World Sports etc patron page in the show notes and of course don't forget to follow us and rate the show on all platforms your support is much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Also check out our World Sports etc podcast for more sports news and stories. And with that thank you so much for listening and goodbye.