World Cup Football etc

PAST TOURNAMENTS: Focus on Mexico '70; Host City Special - Mexico City

• World Cup etc

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:00:32

A look back at Mexico '70 as Declan Link talks to Dave Crummer & Graham Wovenden, who were both at the tournament, followed by a look at Host City, Mexico City. 

To follow our Patreon page for exclusive series on international topics, copy and paste the link below:

https://tinyurl.com/FriendsofWorldSportsetcPatreon

SPEAKER_08

Welcome back to World Cup. My regular listeners will know that for months now we have been doing deep dive retrospectives across the World Cups of yesteryear, featuring people who were actually there. Today we are at 1970 in Mexico, which is coming up shortly. But before we get there, just a couple of bits of housekeeping. Firstly, of course, it will soon be, it's the law of the world, impossible to continue finding individuals who were present at these World Cups. But we intend to keep going back in time, speaking to historians and writers, going right back to the first World Cup in 1930, because there is so much unique, fascinating context to each one. Alongside that, we would also feature these retrospectives within the context. Um we previously featured these retrospectives within the context of longer episodes, but given that the World Cup landscape is really fast moving at the moment, we're going to streamline these. And although we will uh today in this episode, we will focus on Mexico 1970 and talk about Mexico City as a host city. From now on, we will do episodes exclusively specific to the World Cup itself. So in a few weeks, we will be back with England 1966 with uh uh with one of uh World Cup etc.'s favorite guests and friends, Gordon Massinho, and we will focus solely on that. Yes, Gordon Massinho was at was live in 1966 at the World Cup in England. Not just that, he was also present at the final. That's it. All the housekeeping is now done. Over now to Declan Link and Mexico 1970.

SPEAKER_10

Good afternoon, hello, hello. This is Declan Link from Orlando, Florida. Uh, excited this afternoon to finally be talking about the World Cup of 1970, which was hosted in Mexico. We have two fantastic guests on this afternoon, and uh we're gonna go through the tournament as a whole, and we're also gonna speak with uh Dave Crummer and Graham Wovenden about uh their trip uh to Mexico, what they got up to uh in and around the England team and supporting England. So let me just set the scene for everyone. In the summer of 1970, football arrived on the grandest stage with a vibrancy and drama the world had never quite seen before. Under the blazing Mexican sun, in stadiums alive with color and noise, the tournament unfolded as a celebration of skill, flair, and fearless attacking play. It was a World Cup where legends were cemented, where the beautiful game felt truly beautiful, and where every match seemed to carry a sense of occasion, from breathtaking goals to iconic moments of sportsmanship. This was more than just a competition, it was a turning point, a tournament that redefined how football could be played and remember. And it was arguably the best World Cup tournament ever. So, anyway, good afternoon, everyone. Good afternoon, Dave, good afternoon, Graham. Uh Dave, uh, you're both in uh Toronto, in Ontario, in Canada. Dave, can you just give yourself give yourself a quick um quick introduction as to what where you how you where you are today, what you're doing, and how you briefly ended up in Mexico in 1970.

SPEAKER_06

Well, I'll start because I uh we both emigrated from England in 69 to come to Canada as a way of getting to Mexico for the World Cup. Uh but I actually in 1972 got transferred to Montreal where I've been ever since. So uh if I can just get a word in go habsgo. Uh uh so yeah, you're right, uh we're both from Manchester. Uh and I don't know how you know we support United, but I guess most of the will support United.

SPEAKER_10

I did my research and uh and then Brev also told me some stories about your Manchester United supporting days. So sorry I got your location wrong. I thought for some reason you were still in Toronto, but I love Montreal as well. For fabulous, both both fabulous cities. I've got a they're both very near and dear to my heart. So, Graham, can you briefly tell us uh a little bio, a little introduction to your story?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, well, we're both from Drawsden, just east of Manchester, and uh uh the Canadian government paid you away to get here in '69. So we wanted to go to the World Cup, so it was a good way of uh getting here. Um and uh of course we met girls and came back and we're still here, but we did go to the World Cup. But yeah, we spot United. Uh we've got a dog called Rooney, some called Dennis after Law, some called Eric after the king. And um we be we were at uh the 99 final, we were at the 68 European Cup in uh against Benfica in Wembley, and we were there when Eric scored that great goal against Liverpool. So nowadays I'm just retired uh watching gold properties in Guiana. But okay, just just to tell you how we got there, we uh we got group tickets from uh England for uh Guadalajara, and we got a greyhound bus ticket uh that was like for $99 uh for a month and $33 for every extra month. So we traveled around for $165, um, just uh getting a bus at 11 o'clock, sleeping on it, and then uh ending up in a greyhound bus station, maybe in Nashville or Detroit or somewhere and getting a shower and going to the next one. So uh that was that was pretty entertaining. And then we ended up in uh in Mexico about a month before the game started, uh just before the team got there to train.

SPEAKER_10

That sounds like a proper boys on tour trip, it really does.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, we oh no.

SPEAKER_06

I say we did have uh some connections, like Graham had uh family down in San Antonio, I believe. I had a friend in Chicago where we stayed, but like Graham said, mostly we just slept on the bus at night and enjoyed ourselves during the day.

SPEAKER_10

Brilliant, brilliant. Well, then what what we'll do is we'll get into uh some questions uh specifically related to your experiences. Let me just continue with some of the basic facts about the uh FIFA World Cup in 1970. As I mentioned, it was held in Mexico City. Uh it was played in uh five different stadiums: the uh Azteco in Mexico City, the uh stadiums in Guadalajara, Lyon, Puebla, and Toluca. Interestingly, not in Monterey. It was the first World Cup to be held in North America. Obviously, prior World Cups had only been held in South America or Europe. It was the first uh World Cup to ever be broadcast in colour globally on TV, and it was played at at altitude and in intense heat and humidity, which influenced which influenced the tactics and the pacing of all of the teams, particularly the European teams. The tournament marked a turning point from a uh into a more attacking, expressive type of football. There was fluid movement, positional interchanging, and that Brazil style became the brute uh blueprint for beautiful football. And and that that Brazilian team that ultimately went on to win the final against Italy is arguably the best ever team to have been put together. Some people think. Uh it cemented Brazil's global football identity, helped to uh elevate the World Cup into a global spectacle, and it influenced generations of players and coaches. Brazil actually got to keep the Jules Remey trophy permanently because this was their third win. Pele obviously became a global icon and it set the standard for what has always been the standard bearer for what a great World Cup looks like. So let me ask you uh questions again, guys, about your trip. So it wasn't just the two of you who went down there, uh you sent me kindly sent me some photos of it, seemed like quite a few guys down there that you either traveled down with or you met down there and then travelled around the games to.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, well, we met we met them down there. There were guys you in those days you could go to Australia, and if you uh if you stayed and worked there two years, they paid your way there on your way back. So there was there was guys that were coming back from Australia, uh, there was guys that were playing semi-pro in um in California, and then there was other guys that just made their way. So we were all there before all the uh what we call we were the hippies, but you know they we were there before the tourists got there on their charter uh planes and uh and stuff.

SPEAKER_10

So so how did you end up getting there a full month before the tournament? What was the strategy behind that?

SPEAKER_05

Well, we were hippies.

SPEAKER_10

It's a road trip. I can assure you, you both you I can assure you, you both don't look like hippies nowadays.

SPEAKER_05

No, I know, but we um we wanted to meet the team, you know.

SPEAKER_10

So you actually got to spend time with the England team? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05

They uh they actually we played, they were staying at the Hilton, we were staying in what they call Ponsion, it was like a dollar fifty a night, and come home drunk and put the light on and kill all the cockroaches running around. And uh, but we go over to the Hilton or we go to where they were training, and um, we actually played the bell boys of the Hilton with the England team on the line shouting us on. We had some good footballers, there was some uh they were great fans and great footballers, these lads that we met down there.

SPEAKER_10

Wow, what an incredible experience! I uh in a previous um podcast when we covered the USA in 1994, myself and Keith, the other coach at the college, uh, we played against the Irish national team in a behind stores friendly the week before they went to Meadowlands in in New York and beat Italy with Ray Hill. Well they won there, yeah. Great. They won that 1-0. It was funny. And so it must have been like kids you must have felt, and the other guys you were with felt like uh uh kids in a in a toy store who had nicked the keys, and you had the whole toy store to yourself because that as you said, the charters hadn't started coming there with the other supporters, so you must have you must have had an incredible experience being around the England team.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. No, they were uh you know, just uh, you know, we're not there yet. But in Leon, when we lost, we ended up uh in their hotel uh drinking and partying with them. There was there was no girls, so we were dancing with Norman Hunter and uh people like hopefully if he got close to him he'd put his teeth back in. He was a nice guy, he was a he was a he was an animal on the field, but he was a nice guy.

SPEAKER_10

So so you so go on, go on, Gwen.

SPEAKER_06

So that was really what was really funny about the training ground though, the locals thought we were part of the team. So so they were asking us for autographs all day.

SPEAKER_05

Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_10

So so I take it then as England's first three group games were in Guadalajara, that the majority of your time was spent in the Guadalajara area.

SPEAKER_05

Well, that exactly. That's that's where we were based. Um we uh and I was just doing some research this morning, and we'd go to a game, there'd be two games at the stadium on the same day. So you had a ticket to go in and you'd watch both games. So we'd watch Romania-Brazil and England Teclesbackia the same day, which was uh I I didn't I'd I'd forgotten about that till I uh I looked at the schedule today.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, that's apart from the uh Qatar World Cup where you could feasibly go and see three or four games in in one day because the public transportation was so good and everything was in and around Doha. That sounds incredible opportunity for the for the supporters in those days. There's no way in this country in the United States, being as big as it is in in uh 2026, you're going to be able to get to see probably more than one game in one day just because it's this the distances people have to travel is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. But these these were both at the same ground, of course. So I guess once you were in, you were in.

SPEAKER_10

So so England's first game was that uh incredibly famous game when they played Brazil. Can you you were you were out?

SPEAKER_05

No, yeah, no, that was the second game. Second game. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10

So the England won Romania 0 game was the first game. Can you remember that game vividly?

SPEAKER_05

Nope. To be perfectly honest. I remember the Brazil game, of course, the that we had a chance, and Jeff Astel uh missed a sitter there. Uh really.

SPEAKER_10

I was I was watching I was watching uh YouTube highlights of some of the games in 1970, and poor Jeff Astel. I don't think he was ever let to forget that missed missed opportunity.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think he was.

SPEAKER_10

But so tell us about the second game then, because that's an iconic game, the Brazil won England nil game. Describe in your own words what it must have been like that.

SPEAKER_05

Sorry, before we go, no, you think you looked at you looked at the lineup of Brazil, it's you know, Revellino, Josino, and you know, Pele, of course. It was and there's a couple of others there uh that were that were uh Gerson, I think his name was. And uh go on, Dave.

SPEAKER_06

No, no, I was gonna tell them about uh for all the games, there's this group of 25 or so others, but there was only Graham and I who had tickets. So it became quite a challenge to get into these games. So for the first game against Romania, we got it down to a fine art where I would be one of the ticket holders for going first, second would say the guy behind's got them behind, behind, behind, behind, and Graham would be the last one to go in with his ticket, and that's how 25 people got him the grab. Yeah, oh god, and for the Brazil, uh but unfortunately for the Brazil game, I think they cottoned onto what was going on because they sent the army into the stadium because we got there what an hour before the game or something, and for the army was chasing us all around the game, all around the uh stadium. So, yes, we were we were a bit of a outfit.

SPEAKER_10

I think um Gren, didn't you say one of the one of the the lads you were with was a real chancer?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, oh Snight from to uh from Tunbridge Wells. He'd got there, he got there because he he he'd been in New York watching United, he'd come from London, and then he'd gone to San Francisco somehow and watched United there, and then they had a whip round for him to go to um to get to Mexico, to get to Guadalajara. So, but he was a lad and he he saw the tourist buses arriving or the hotel. They turned the hotel into like an English pub, and they were delivering these Charles Buchan monthly. So, and he it's the first time he ever bought a cab in his life. He um he he stole them and put them in the cab, and then he went to the training ground at the centerfold was Brazil, and he went to the the training ground of Brazil and got them to sign them, and then we're at a game like say Brazil, Czechoslovakia, and it's like where's Snipe? Oh, he's over there. He was in the middle of all the Brazil fans selling the bloody magazine.

SPEAKER_10

Have you stayed in touch with him at all? Because he sounds quite the lad.

SPEAKER_05

No, no, but you know how he got home, he didn't have a return ticket. He got home because the charters went bust and the uh government sent a plane and he got on the plane. That's the last I heard of him. I kept in touch with a few of the lads, but look lost uh lost touch. Like uh, wow, if anybody's listening to this that uh knows us or was there.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, that's why I posted that picture on uh on the other side there to see if anyone recognized themselves.

SPEAKER_10

Wow, yeah, it definitely looked in the picture like everyone was having a good old time. And I've I've been a long time ago in a previous life when I was going to the World Cups, I was exactly like that. You know, no responsibilities in life, just go out there and have fun, you know. So I I can I can very much relate to what the experience you guys had. So um in watching the games in Guadalajara, um obviously I I have to reference the famous save by Gordon Banks.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, that was at the other end. That was at the other end.

SPEAKER_10

Oh, it's that's such a shame that is because that is such iconic. Jarzinho um crossing the ball in, Pelle, Cristiano Ronaldo like hanging in the air, so much higher than the uh player he was that was marking him, heading it down into the corner. Banks got across the goal and not only managed to save the ball but push it over the crossbar.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_06

I read somewhere this morning where they said Bobby Moore commented why didn't he catch it?

SPEAKER_10

So talking just talking of Bobby Moore and Steel, still trying to sort of keep everything on track. Obviously, uh in Bogota, I think it was in Bogota, Colombia before this warm. Tell us about that experience. Do you do do you remember much about what happened then? Because I I don't remember the Mexico 1970 World Cup very well, but that must have been a massive talking point at the time.

SPEAKER_05

It really was, yeah, because he was a you know, he was the captain for God's sakes, you know, and it and it, you know, it was uh it was a bit of a scam, they figured, but uh you know it went on, it went on for five days, which was very worrying.

SPEAKER_10

But uh so was he was he actually locked up because he was a he was accused of stealing a bracelet in Columbia?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I I think so. Yeah, it was held. Yeah, he was held. Uh I don't know whether he I don't don't know whether he was probably in a police station rather than a jail, but he he was held.

SPEAKER_10

Well the the England captain. Well, after after four years on from '66 when he'd raised the World Cup, and he's in a he's in a police jail. That must have been a massive story at the time.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_10

So and so anyway, in the last game, um England uh beat Czechoslovakia 1-0. And again, and Brazil and England uh qualified uh because in those days the tournament was 16 teams in total, four groups of four, very simple, and then the top two teams went through to the knockout stages. So were you cognizant of what was going on in the other three groups?

SPEAKER_05

Uh of course, yeah, yeah, of course. We were we we watched everything, like, you know, we were all fans. Like uh, you know, it was it was uh it was a football loving.

SPEAKER_10

So you could see it on TV in the in the in the uh improvised bar that you were hanging out in all the time.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, where it was uh you know the the the Mexicans were great too. They uh they were they were loving uh hosting it. It was uh it was very uh very cool. But uh the the the other one thing uh they should mention about this it was the first World Cup where they were allowed two substitutes. Did you know that? Or was it or were they allowed one substitute? But they were allowed to have substitutes on two substitutes on the bench because that's what happened in Leon when uh we took Bobby off and uh put Colin Bell on. And uh I mean it was it anyway, we'll we'll finish with Guadalajara. And yeah, we were aware.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, just hold hold on one second, because let me just go over um the group one was Mexico, USSR, USSR, which is obviously Russia, uh Mexico, uh sorry, uh yeah, Mexico and Belgium, and the two teams that advanced from that group was USSR, Russia, and Mexico. The uh group two was Italy, Sweden, Uruguay, and Israel. They've got some strange countries represented in this tournament, and Italy and Uruguay advanced. Third group, obviously, as I mentioned, Brazil and England advanced, and then group four was uh West Germany, Morocco, Bulgaria, and Peru. And West Germany and Peru advanced. So we then got to the quarterfinals, uh Where Brazil played Peru, Uruguay played USSR, Italy played uh Mexico, and West Germany, last but not least, played England. That's what that's the game you were going to talk about, um, Graham, in in Lyon, correct?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. So we we were aware that the fact that we'd lost to uh Brazil, we would be going to Lyon. Not that anybody had any tickets for Lyon, but we had a couple of tickets for Guadalajara, and Dave reminded me this morning that they uh the uh tourist uh department there, we went there and they they exchanged them for uh Lyon, which they'd probably done with the Peruvian fans, because we we actually played against uh the Peruvian fans in the streets of Guadalajara. They they redirected the buses, believe it or not, and we we had a game against them on the street, because they they'd come to town to play Brazil, but then then the day before uh the uh West Germany game, we uh we uh we hitchhike to Leon, which is uh whole other story, if uh Dave wants to tell it.

SPEAKER_06

Uh well I was 25 of the 25 guys all hitchhiking from Guadalajara to Leon. So we would stand on the main road, across the road, and as soon as a large truck came along, we asked for a lift, and of course the Mexicans were so good, they uh they gladly did it. And as Graeme reminded me, as as they were passing a town, they made a point of driving us through the town so we could all wave our flags and have everyone cheering. But the highlight was the last driver going into Leon, he turned around and asked us if we would like to come back to his house and meet his wife, which we thought was really strange, but we said, of course we would. So we go to this Mexican house and remember he's a lorry driver, and his wife comes out and she's loving every minute of it and insisting that she feeds us all. There's 25 of us, and she puts on this incredible spread. I mean, it's like Graham said, it was a loving for uh for the Mexicans and the English guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

The one thing about the the one truck we were on, though, it was the bow truck, and we were all in the back of it. We all and we we exchanged to the next truck that's uh because the guy was going down a different route, and we all looked like Mr. Pastry, we were all covered in bloody flour, hilarious.

SPEAKER_10

That's that's a funny visual, that really is.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_10

So um, we'll cover the other three quarterfinals in a second, but you got to Lyon, and obviously there was the normal drama um going on with the England team where Gordon Banks had uh Monzuma's ruled out revenge. Yeah, he got it, he got a bit of the old Montezuma's revenge, I think, did he?

SPEAKER_05

Plus, like, yeah, plus, like I read this morning. Um, you know, if if we'd have gone through um in Guadalajara, we'd have still been there. So they had to uh, you know, get get moving and um whatever. And then it was a 12 o'clock game, it was a noon game. All the games in Guadalajara we were in were at four o'clock. So there was a bit of a downpour then in June in uh in Guadalajara at four o'clock. So it it sort of cooled things off. So here we are in Leon at noon, high noon, oof, oof, and we were so hungover, we'd been in the fountains the night before when uh but nobody had so nobody had a ticket except us. So what happened was Snipe Sniper from Tunbury's Wells, he went through and he he stole all the uh you know, they used to tear the tickets in half. He stole all the uh the other halves that they were taking because it was like, you know, it was like a fourth division team with uh, you know, with just a turnstile going in. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't secure or anything. So he stole them all, and then he climbed up the wall and he was he was passing them all down to us. So uh we all got in and uh we were all hung over and we were winning 2-0, it was great. And then I've never felt so far away from home.

SPEAKER_10

But it sounded it sounds as though, from what I can gather, that Sir Ralph Ramsey, because of the heat and humidity, the times of the games, he actually rotated the uh teams uh in the in the group games quite heavily. And they just to try and manage their general all-round fitness in what was called brutal conditions, and arguably, with the benefit of hindsight, they the the the critics of Sir Elf after the tournament said that they never really found a settled rhythm before the knockout stages, and then actually in that game against West Germany, as you said, England were 2-0 up through Alan Mullery and Martin Peters, and it appeared as though they were cruising, and then the momentum shifted dramatically because he made some substitutions, didn't he?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, he put he put Colin Bell on for uh but but it was really hard. Plus, if you look at that German uh roster, that like Uwe Zul uh uh Muller scored two hat tricks in the uh in the qualifying uh in the in the round robin there and Beckenbauer and like on and on, you know, they had a they had a strong squad.

SPEAKER_10

They were stacked, yeah. I mean, I yeah, I mean, and you know, I I I watched the video uh the YouTube video of the semi-final. I don't want to get ahead of myself, but Gert Müller was in classic Gerd Müller style in that game, which that game itself is a is a is an all-time classic as well.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. As well. Where did we watch that? In Method. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we we agree that was that was phenomenal, that game.

SPEAKER_10

Well, let's let's just finish off the quarterfinals because the the 3-2 defeat to West Germany marked, you know, what the what they call it the the emotional end of England's 1966 core at the highest level. Uh Bobby Moore, so Bobby Charlton, Bobby Moore, and other quite a few of the the main members of 66 and 70 would never again reach a World Cup final stage together. So it was the end of that era. In the other games, Brazil um beat Peru 4-2, uh, Uruguay in a Dow affair beat USSR 1-0, and Italy stamped all over Mexico 4-1. So the the semifinals were set for Italy against West Germany and Brazil against Uruguay. What what happened to you guys after Lyon? You didn't go back to North America or the UK. You stayed on in Mexico, did you?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, no, what happened was that uh Frank Edwards and John Farrington, two of uh two of the lads that were playing semi-pro, uh, that became good mates of ours. Uh Frank had a car and we still had a bit of money, and we were still adventurous. So he says, We're going, we'll go to Mexico City, then we'll go to Acapulco. So we went, okay, we'll chip in for gas. And uh, so we went, we went to Mexico City, but we didn't, we didn't, we looked at it, it was like, oh, holy shit, what is this? It was so it was so busy, and uh so yeah, we hightailed out of there, and uh we ended up um I I can't remember where we were. We watched that Italy Germany game, that was fantastic, maybe in Mexico City, but then uh then we ended up in uh Acapulco, as you do.

SPEAKER_06

The uh we can't sorry, but we kind of overlooked that last night in Leon because as Graham said, uh Sir Alf Ramsey, the boss there, invited us to the team party. Yeah, all the 25 lads joining in with the England football team and staff and stuff.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, Tommy Dott was uh too.

SPEAKER_06

I was just about to say Tommy Dott was there, yeah. Who else is uh oh god, but we were when we were living in Toronto, we were staying with Scottish guys who are Rangers fans, so we were all chant, we were all chanting these Rangers songs to Tommy Dot, and he got really pissed.

SPEAKER_05

He didn't he get pissed back anyway, yeah. But that yeah, that was it was uh you know, I guess it was just that was the end, you know, it was relief for him, but uh it it it was so hot that noon uh game in Leon.

SPEAKER_10

It was yeah, I mean just the pace of the game. Well, when I s when I've seen it uh on YouTube, it's just incredible. It's so sort of one paced because it's inhuman to ask people to even top quality athletes to play at that time of the day, um, which is again what's going to be happening in many respects in North America this summer. Yeah, because you know, global TV drives everything now. Um, you know, the England England are playing here in Orlando against Costa Rica on the 10th of June. That game's at four o'clock in the afternoon. It will probably be 90, you know, in the in the high high 30s centigrade, 90s Fahrenheit, with the very good chance there'll be massive afternoon thunderstorms and lightning, which could really mess it up. But yeah, anyway, I I digress. Brazil comfortably beat Uruguay uh 3-1, and then this 4-3 game for Italy played West Germany. You know, that it is it is it is called by many the game of the century because it it went through extra time and uh uh Italy ended up coming out on top. So it must have been yeah, a bit like watching that last World Cup final between Argentina and France in in Qatar, which was a classic game. This must have been had you on the edge of your edge of your seats in in the bar, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I I I think that the last two goals uh by eagles in extra time, yeah, we're like right at the end of extra time, too. I don't exactly don't know what they were gonna do after that.

SPEAKER_10

So the scene was the scene was all set for the uh who cares about the third place playoff between West Germany and Uruguay. The scene was all set for the uh for the final, and again that iconic historic Brazilian team really took it to Italy. What what it where were you watching that game from? Acapulco. Acapulco. Yeah, why wouldn't you? What a beautiful place to watch the code. You weren't you weren't diving off the cliffs that day, I take it. No, we were watching the guys do it though.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, okay. Well, yeah, we ended up there uh with uh Frank and John and a couple of others that we can't remember their names, maybe Paul.

SPEAKER_06

There's some side stories there, but I I'm I'm sure we would digress.

SPEAKER_10

Well, the as you as you referenced uh earlier on, Graeme, the Brazilian team uh you know is iconic in many respects, a couple of needs we don't necessarily know, but the goalkeeper was Felix. It was Carlos Alberto who scored that fabulous fourth goal.

SPEAKER_05

You know what? I watched that this morning a couple of times. That that just bounced perfectly up, about six inches up, as he was gonna hit it.

SPEAKER_10

And it went like a rocket into the uh into the far corner. Unstoppable, unstoppable. So the other defenders were Brito, Wilson, Piazza, Everaldo, but this is where it really gets exciting. The midfield players were Claudaldo, Gerson, Jarzinho, and Jarzinho, uh if I remember rightly, he is he was the first player to score in every game at the time in a in a World Cup tournament.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, he was.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, he was at the time he was the first player to in history to score in every match of a World Cup winning campaign. So that was their midfield, and then obviously, I mean the forwards speak for themselves. Pele, Tostado, and Rivellino. Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_05

Rivellino. But Jay, you know that Jazzino, I watched that this morning, and he was a right winger, but in the in the final he played on the left wing. You know how there's a lot of right, right, right wingers now play on the left wing and cut in. He uh he was doing that, you know, like Gordon and uh oh many more. Um that kid we sold to Chelsea.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, that you're not sure. Yeah, I think Chelsea want to get rid of him now. Oh, our either so so just to to round up, it would sound an incredible, incredible experience, fellas. Um, have have either of you been to any other World Cups in that time, or is that the highlight of your football watching from a World Cup perspective?

SPEAKER_06

I can I just conclude, sorry, Greg, I'll just conclude though, because we we keep talking about how great the Brazilians were, but if you have you seen the end of the game against England, there was so much respect between the players that I I reckon England were the second best team there.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, yeah. No, no, well, I don't know, the Italians would argue with you maybe.

SPEAKER_10

But there was an unbelievable respect because there's that iconic picture of Pelle and Bobby and Bobby Moore hugging each other afterwards, you know. There we go again. The exhaustion on the England players after that came.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, was England swapped shirts, actually.

SPEAKER_10

Yep, yeah, and and I I do remember reading that um there was a sense, palpable sense that England and Brazil were gonna meet again in the final. But again, it things happened with uh Pia Vanetti playing in for in in Peter Vanetti it was he played in goal instead of Gordon Banks and then Sir Alframse making some questionable decisions in the game against West Germany when they were comfortably ahead, which meant a destiny didn't mean that Brazil played England again. Yeah, yeah, it was a shame. So, my question have you either been to any other World Cups and are you planning to go 20 games in in Canada this summer?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I've actually got it it's so funny. I keep telling people I've got I've got West Germany, I always I still call them West Germany. I've got Germany against um Ivory Coast um on it on the 20th of June. I've got tickets.

SPEAKER_06

Which is Graham's birthday.

SPEAKER_05

It's my 80th, so it's uh you know it's special. So I got I got hospitality uh seats, but I'm not I'm not too happy with FIFA to be honest. But yeah, so I'm going to that and I I went to uh France uh but I didn't go I didn't go till the quarterfinals and uh when I got there in England uh there was effigies of Beckham hanging uh hanging from uh pub uh hanging hanging on lamp house uh lamppost outside pubs, you know, because he got sent off. So uh I ended up seeing Croatia play somebody. I remember.

SPEAKER_10

But they I mean I it's gone that's well what what you were both saying. I don't think there's anyone in the world who's happy with FIFA right now, apart from people who are gonna benefit from yeah, you know, the inside the FIFA machine. Yeah, and it's actually scandalous what they're doing uh this summer, but that's another that's another that's for another day. Yeah, so but so looking back on it, good World Cup, average World Cup, poor World Cup, I think I know the answer.

SPEAKER_06

Best one ever.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, no, it was great. It was great.

SPEAKER_06

Best one ever, for sure.

SPEAKER_05

It was great, except except for except for Leon. And the other thing about the other thing about Leon, of course, that was the um they were in Puebla for one the first game, but the the last two games of the round robin there, West Germany was there, so they were settled and everything, right? You know, so uh that that was the you know, you had to take that into uh into account too that England had to uh full up all their uh stuff and uh and move uh move uh it was only like it's only like four hours away or something like that. So uh it wasn't you know, it wasn't miles away.

SPEAKER_10

But um let me ask let me ask you, uh Dave Graham, uh are you both very similar in age? Because I am so impressed with how mentally strong you are, how good your memories are of this some in some of these stories, uh from you know, a long time ago now. And and you know, I said to one of the guys on our podcast the other day when I was looking through trying to find people to interview about uh Mexico 1970, you know, there's a sad number of the the actual squad who have sadly passed away. Oh no, and a lot, and a lot of the the commentators have all passed away. So you two sound like you're sprightly 28-year-old still.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah. Well, he's he's a lot older than me. He's a lot older than me. He was he was 80 in February, I'm 80 in June. We were 24 down there. We were uh we were we had the time of our lives.

SPEAKER_10

Well, let me ask you, let me ask you one more question and then we'll wrap it up. Um, you both mentioned you're from Droilston.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah do you ever get back to beautiful Droilston nowadays? Well, we just won the cup, didn't we, Dave? What did we win?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, Manchester League.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we we beat Curzon Ashton. Yeah, right. Yeah, no, um I've 2017, last time I was back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10

Because in my the reason I the reason I asked that in my early years of university coaching, because I did 32 years as the assistant uh soccer football coach at Rollins College in Winnipeg, Florida, I was sent on a mission to go to Droilsden to recruit to crew to recruit a player who was playing for Chorley at the time, and it was it was just before Christmas 1992, and I sat there with a local lad who'd already come from Manchester area, mick um Mickey Nelson, his name was, and his dad, and we all had our uh our um hot coffees just trying to stay warm, sitting under a blanket, watching this player who's playing for Chorley. His name was John Smith, he was a junior at Everton. John Smith is now the head coach at Cornell University in New York. Oh, and it wasn't for me going to Drawsden that day. John wouldn't be in America doing such a good job at an Ivy League school up in uh New York. Oh no, that's wild.

SPEAKER_05

We hadn't told you we were from Drawsdale.

SPEAKER_10

No, you haven't, no. So thank you very much indeed, Dave Graham, for your time this afternoon. It's greatly appreciated by the World Cup, etc. team. And obviously, if we have another reason, we'd love to get you on again.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, thanks for having us, and uh like I say, it's been it's it's been quite uh quite the time for Graeme and I as well, so we we will appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome back to the third part of our episode on the 1970 World Cup. And here are now Deklan Link and John Donfidio, my two co-hosts, giving you all the necessary and useful information about Mexico City as a World Cup host city. And also very important to note is that Mexico City is the record-holding World Cup city in the world, now being the center of the third World Cup hosted here in Mexico. The first one, of course, being 1970, then 1986, and now 40 years later, the third time, 2026. And that of course does not only count for Mexico City, but for the whole country of Mexico, because in no other country in the world, a FIFA World Cup has been hosted more than two times. But without further ado, I'll give it over to Declan and John.

SPEAKER_10

Hello, this is Declan Link in Orlando, Florida. We are very fortunate to have our man on the ground not that far from Mexico City, John Bonfiglio. Hi, John, how are you today?

SPEAKER_09

Hi, Declan. I am very well. Thank you for pointing out that Mexico is in North America because that in and of itself is often misunderstood. People don't quite know whether to say that. I mean, regularly when I'm introduced, I get um it gets mentioned that John Bonfiglio in South America on radio stations. But yeah, no, it is not in South America, Mexico, it is not in Central America, which technically isn't a continent anyway. Uh it is in North America.

SPEAKER_10

Yeah, I was looking on a map the other day, actually, and bizarrely, and I'm being facetious here, I saw that what used to be called the Gulf of Mexico on the map was called the Gulf of America. Did something happen there?

SPEAKER_09

Um, I I don't know. I mean, perhaps. Uh uh, I think there's things happening uh all the time. Uh the the the obviously the naming of the Gulf of Mexico continues to be the Gulf of Mexico everywhere, basically outside of the USA. But but the we're we're well versed now in the understanding that the tech bro. The tech billionaire magnates and Donald Trump have uh have secret handshakes.

SPEAKER_10

Beautiful. Well, let's get on with uh the Azteca Stadium and Mexico City in general. How is Mexico City and maybe even the country as a whole prepared for the onslaught of hopefully tens of thousands of football fans, John?

SPEAKER_09

Well, it's it's sweaty palms uh time at the moment because we're only five weeks out, is that more or less? And there's definitely still a lot to be done, in particular, Mexico City's uh main airport, um, the AICM, as it's known, the international airport of uh of Mexico City, is still very heavily um in labor, if you if you like, it would trying to give birth. Uh, there is work taking place absolutely uh everywhere, and um it's not certain that it's all going to be uh completed in time. So we're receiving assurances, but um yeah, it's um there's some nerves afoot, let's let's say. As regards the stadia, I mean we know that even a few weeks ago um when we had the sort of the international window that that was pretty much all done and dusted, bar some sort of infrastructural work outside of the stadium, uh stadia in particular, we in the Azteca, which has a new capacity of Stadio Azteca, of course, the iconic Estadio Azteca in in the south of Mexico City, where I suspect that's at some point in the next few weeks, Declan, yourself, myself, and Paul Schmidtroschka will be sharing a beer uh somewhere. The new capacity there is 87,500. And in the recent uh international window that the match that took place there saw 82,000 attend. Um, we did see a fatality, uh, we um an individual who who was drunk and fell off one of the tiers, but that really was more to do with poor judgment than really anything. You know, if somebody is going to not really sort of take care of themselves in in any kind of stadium, then of course accidents can can happen. There's not really much you can do to police to police against that. Um the I would say that the tone of the um the mood here is is expectant. Um we heard that in the recent uh yesterday's podcast interview between Paul and artist Diego Martinez Peña, who was notably excited about what was what was to come. I would say in brackets, perhaps a little deluded about his perspectives about how far Mexico can go, but you know, uh who knows. Um, but no, we're definitely in the in the final straight. And uh, I guess another measure is that of these things is you know, football fans are always engaged with thinking about football and following football. I think we're now at the stage of the situation where people who don't ordinarily follow football are starting to think ahead to to the World Cup and making plans. And bear in mind that this is Mexico, where nobody makes plans any more than two minutes ahead of time. So for people to start thinking about the World Cup five weeks away is something of a statement.

SPEAKER_10

So from an accommodation perspective, John, obviously there'll be lots of people coming and going, coming and going. What is the uh word on the street with regards to availability of hotel rooms, hostelries, Airbnbs, etc., etc.? Because I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of uh well, I'm actually not that sure. I'll take that back. There might be a lot of last minute people who decide to go to Mexico City for some of the group games. And then obviously once the the knockout games start, people are gonna have to rush to make plans at the last minute. What's the accommodation situation looking like in Mexico City?

SPEAKER_09

I mean, I think you need it's worth remembering that Mexico City is a uh one of the biggest cities on earth and has in excess of 20 odd million people in the um in its sort of urban uh area, and it has huge events on a daily basis take place there. So there is uh there is, I wouldn't say an excess of of accommodation, but there is there is substantial accommodation available. Now, what definitely has happened and is is palpable is that costs have gone up during during the World Cup in some contexts really uh significantly. So I think booking late is not going to be an issue. Um thinking trying to get a bargain is going to be an issue, but I would also remember that there's actually a lot of different uh cities that are very close to Mexico City, uh, which uh to some extent, for example, say Cuernavaca, which is south of Mexico City, which is an hour south by bus of Mexico City. Um, the Estadio Azteca is in the south of Mexico City itself. So it would actually make more sense uh potentially for accommodation for somebody coming in to see a match of the Azteca to potentially go it go into Cuernavaca, get a really good deal on accommodation, which is not going to be um of elevated price there, and then get a bus direct to the to to the stadium, which is going to be much quicker than traveling from within the city itself, given the size of the city. So I think if people think creatively, then they shouldn't have an issue here in the way that they might do in some of the smaller US cities, say.

SPEAKER_10

Question about the uh tickets, the resale of tickets. So I my understanding is it's illegal in Mexico. So the FIFA marketplace, the FIFA resale site, doesn't apply to Mexico. Is that correct, John?

SPEAKER_09

So the FIFA resale site does apply to Mexico, but on um at capped rates. So you you what you basically do, you have is a whole parallel system where people are asking for exorbitant costs outside of the FIFA site. So it's it doesn't look like it does it does in the USA. Um it's uh in that sense, it is a little less um policed, you might say, but it but it's um but the you know the the prices and and the prices are not as exorbitant as they are in the USA at the moment, but they're still way, way above what um what uh what they what they should be. My my expectation is because purchasing power in Mexico, of course, is significantly less than it is in the United States. My expectation is is that at the moment people are um scalpers are still uh have excessive prices because they're speculating. Uh, but I I I think that as we get closer to some of the the matches, that some of those prices will come down.

SPEAKER_10

Have you seen any news media outlet reports about what's and the volume of tickets have been sold for the games at the Azteca?

SPEAKER_09

Um all I know is that there are still, as as ever, completely um opaque with um with FIFA. It's uh my understanding is that there are still tickets which have yet to be released, but it is completely unclear as to what level of tickets have been uh sold or moved on. Uh, there is no official information about that.

SPEAKER_10

So we'll find that out over the ensuing next five weeks and into the tournaments.

SPEAKER_09

We'll fight we'll find that out as we wander around the stadium 30 minutes before a match kicks off and gauge live the uh whether there are any scalpers offering tickets, of course there will be, and what level of lunat lunatic prices they are suggesting that be paid um right there and then. I th I I think it's gonna be difficult to really that that first the the first match between Mexico and South Africa, of course, is almost a case um in and of itself because that's where there is most demand. So I would have thought that it's by the second match that we're gonna get a real sense of um of of the of uh the supply and demand as regards those tickets here in Mexico.

SPEAKER_10

Interestingly, over the many tournaments I've been to over the years, a lot of the ticket touts and scalpers were amazingly from Liverpool and Manchester. Whatever country you were in, they were all from Liverpool and Manchester. But with FIFA and UEFA digitising the tickets now, there's a lot more. You don't find as many people actually walking up and down, uh, got got two tickets, got two tickets, you know, selling them. So uh it's going to be very interesting to see what happens with regards to uh the capacity of the stadium, which I'm interested in, because when I went there in 1986 reopening game, the capacity was 120,000 and it was jammed full, packed full, and I got two tickets on the street outside for 50 US dollars for the opening game, Italy-Bulgaria. So I'm assuming it's health and safety and um putting seats in that's reduced the capacity so much, John.

SPEAKER_09

Yeah, you you're absolutely right. It's also going to be interesting because FIFA have um, as you've seen in the last few years, but is going to be very present at this World Cup as well. They have heavily policed the immediate space around the stadia and in order, not because of health and safety or security, although there is a little bit of that, but mostly in order to be able to control the commerce uh that exists around these particular spaces. So as we've spoken about before, there's there's a whole community in the south of um the south of Mexico City around the Azteca that ordinarily when a big match arrives, they open their front yards for parking, they sell beers outside of their house and food and that kind of stuff. And that's just emphatically been banned now. So I would also suspect that that it's going to be slightly harder for scalpers to actually, for ticker touts to actually be selling in the immediate environment of uh uh of the stadium as we approach the uh um the first match.

SPEAKER_10

Okay, well, two two questions for obviously when we come when I come down to Mexico. The two questions are very present in my mind. One, how safe is Mexico City gonna be in the country in general? And secondly, if you decide to take a day off from the footy, what else is there to do in Mexico City?

SPEAKER_09

Well, I was gonna I th I thought you were gonna, I prepared my notes and I thought you were gonna ask uh how much would you get for one of your kidneys um on uh on the open market in in Mexico City, but you haven't asked that, so we can we can move on uh from that. Um as regards other things to do, Mexico City, again, it is just it's uh it's a huge city, and by some measures, it has them, even with that, um the millions and millions of people uh uh in excess of 20 million people that live live in the city and its surroundings, it still by some measures have the highest ratio of museums to people in the in the world. It is incredibly well served uh culturally, and it's also a city which is really completely transformed as of about 20, 25 years ago. The pollution, I mean, it's still at altitude, so breathing is sometimes uh difficult, especially early on in a in a stay. But um it's despite its size, it is a very, I would say, almost human-scale city on Sundays. There's now, for many years now been this sort of culture of closing the main avenues and people bicycle and walk and jog along uh these huge arteries that in any given day see millions and millions of cars uh pour through them. Uh so that there is absolutely everything that a sort of a modern international city um can uh can can offer. If you want uh great views of the city, there's uh there's a building on Insurgentes, this long straight road that goes through the center of Mexico City, which interestingly is called the World Trade Center. That's of course, because we associate the World Trade Center with New York and what happened with the Twin Towers, but but there are World Trade Centers in a lot of cities across the world. And there's this incredible building, there's a restaurant, there's a rotating restaurant atop this um uh this building, which looks kind of imperialistically, it looks sort of Darth Vaderish, it's very weird. A lot of people will see it on a flight because as you fly into Mexico City, most flights actually come in off the north and then they'll take a left, uh a sharp left around the World Trade Center as they come in to land at the um at the international airport in Mexico City. So that I would say that's a recommendation for an afternoon or an evening. At dusk is amazing, and it's not too overly priced either uh to have a beer or two or a cocktail. At dusk, it's amazing because you see the difference between Mexico City in the day and then as the lights come out and the city just spreads around you. So I would say that's a uh that's a really big thing. Um, but and beyond that, yeah, it entirely depends on your tastes, but there is something clearly for uh for everybody.

SPEAKER_10

Interesting little um reference spell down to Star Wars today, there, John. Didn't miss that one.

SPEAKER_09

Uh well th thank you very much. Yeah, no, it's often seemed to me it's it is a really strange building. It's got this sort of this uh strange, I guess, uh diametric circular head right at the top of it, and the rest of it looks like a hip flask, but but much bigger and darker, and it definitely looks, I think, of the Empire in in Star Wars.

SPEAKER_10

Particularly appropriate um correlation with that being May the Fourth today. Yes, may the fourth be with you and safety and security. Let's round off with safety and security because you've swerved that question once. Let's ask it again.

SPEAKER_09

It's probably because you asked two questions at once, and I forgot what the first half of the question uh was look, um uh that I I think uh Mexico City should be read as being a huge international city, and of course, all life resides in uh these kinds of urban spaces, and so you need to take your usual precautions. You need to keep your wallet well in your pocket or wherever it is that you store uh your wallet, keep your wits about you, but I wouldn't say that you you should worry any more about safety and security in Mexico City itself than you would in um say New York or London. I mean, in many senses, it's actually safer than those than those cities. Um, and of course, the the quite unspoken is that keeps recurring across the news media is uh cartel trouble, cartel presence. Um we've spoken a little bit about that as regards Guadalajara, uh, because of course that is a center of activity there. But as regards Mexico City, Mexico City is where the Mexican government and federal uh forces and agencies are strongest, and there is no um organized crime or very little fringe organized crime, power and control in in the capital city. So, yeah, I mean, undoubtedly things happen as they do anywhere else, but there's no specific reason why um uh I would say that anybody needs to take any special care or caution in in Mexico's capital.

SPEAKER_10

So when Paul Schmidt Trotsky is heading into the capital city, he needs to leave his Rolex at home on the SUNY.

SPEAKER_09

Um, yes. Uh he he obviously is more visible than most. I am more of a standard Mexican height, so I can hide in in the hubbub of a crowd. But when in most countries in the world, when Paul Schmidt Troschka arrives, everybody takes notice.

SPEAKER_10

Fantastic. Great John, that's very good insight onto uh in Mexico. I'm really looking forward to going down that. And uh I'm sure the excitement we'll be building over the upcoming next five weeks. Thank you for your time this afternoon, John.

SPEAKER_00

No problem, Dagden, take care. So that's it from us for today.

SPEAKER_10

And if you just can't get enough of us, you can support us and get access to our premium content on Patreon, consisting of special interviews, deep dives, and QA's. You will find the link to our Friends of the World Sports, etc. Patreon page in the show notes.

SPEAKER_07

And of course, don't forget to follow us and rate the show on all platforms. Your support is much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00

Also, check out our World Sports, etc. podcast for more sports news and stories. And with that, thank you so much for listening and goodbye.