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World Cup Football etc
Hopes & dreams; society & cultures - what the greatest sporting tournament on earth offers above all is an entry point to people across the world. Join journalists Paul Schmidt-Troschke, Jon Bonfiglio, and football expert Declan Link - alongside a host of special guests - on this unique take on all things related to the World Cup. To follow our Patreon page for exclusive series, copy and paste the following link: https://tinyurl.com/FriendsofWorldSportsetcPatreon
World Cup Football etc
SPECIAL INTERVIEW: Legendary Commentator Jim Rosenthal - Part One
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A special feature interview with Jim Rosenthal, the distinguished English sports presenter and commentator with a career spanning over 55 years, covering eight FIFA World Cups, three Rugby World Cups, two Olympics, 150 Formula One races, and many major boxing bouts.
Hello, hello. Welcome to our latest podcast. This is Declan Link in Orlando, Florida, a wet, cloudy, and stormy Orlando, Florida, not what I signed up for today. And John Bonfiglio in Mexico. Hello, John. How are you?
SPEAKER_05I'm good, Declan. How are you?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, very well, thanks. I'm missing out on my sunbathing today because of this cloud and rain and storm. So I do apologize if you hear thunderstorms in the background. It's not like your normal gunshots and firecrackers in Mexico. It's just a good old-fashioned storm here in Central Florida.
SPEAKER_05Yes, well, that's that's that's good to know. I just had an image of you sunbathing, which I'm trying rapidly trying to banish from my.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, my wife, my wife burned the manchini, luckily. Anyways, let's move on quickly. Um, as I said, welcome to our show, especially for our UK listeners and definitely for all of our global listeners today, because today's guest, particularly for our UK listeners, needs very little introduction. He absolutely deserves one. For over four decades, one voice has been the calm, authoritative presence at the heart of British sport. Whether it was the roar of Formula One grid, a world title boxing night, or the tension of a World Cup knockout stage, Jim Rosenthal has been there, bringing it all to life. Jim started out£13 a week at the Oxford Mail, worked his way through BBC Local National Radio, and then joined ITV in 1980, where he stayed for a remarkable 32 years. Jim has covered over eight FIFA World Cups, three Rugby World Cups, two Olympic Games, and over 150 Formula One races in his stellar career. He's anchored the ITV BAFTA-winning coverage of England's Rugby World Cup victory in 2003 and has twice been named the Royal Television Society's sports presenter of the year. His secret, a man who always knew the event, who knew always knew the event was bigger than the presenter. And somehow that made him even better to watch. Jim, welcome to our podcast. We're absolutely delighted to have you on.
SPEAKER_02Well, Dacan, thank you very much for that uh very kind introduction. My life uh whizzing before me in about 95 seconds there. So very well done. And that's uh and I'm very looking forward to talking to you in in Florida, where I know that Florida quite well. Actually, you you know you always get storms there, don't you? But there's always sunshine after it. Um, and and John in in Mexico, and John fond memories of Mexico City, that's for sure. For that that uh that World Cup back in '86 and the Maradona handball and all that.
SPEAKER_05An absolutely iconic World Cup that was, and I'm sure we'll we'll get to it during the course of the uh the chat. But what a biography. I mean, it's one of those things that you know, just hearing Declan just run through it. It just um and it being something which, of course, uh I I've sort of lived through in parallel with your voice, uh, Jim. It's not just hearing somebody's biography, it's um you know professionals' um biography. It's also it also takes you right on a journey through your through your sporting life. But um back over to you, Taco.
SPEAKER_02You've grown you've grown old with me, John. That's what you're trying to say. Exactly. You've grown old listening to me and watching me.
SPEAKER_04Well, although this is an audio podcast, uh, I can see you and you can see me, Jim. And you're looking very, very, very well for all those years of service to broadcasting. So um we're we're gonna uh cover your career a lot in today's podcast, but obviously we're gonna have a focus particularly on the upcoming World Cup, uh, some of the World Cups that you've covered over the years and some of your other remarkable sporting achievements. So, anyway, let's get back to the beginning, Jim. You as I mentioned, you started out earning third the princely sum of£13 a week at the Oxford Mail. When you were running around the garden doing your football commentary as a kid, did you ever imagine it would lead to a career like you had?
SPEAKER_02I didn't really, um, but uh I I always um my dad, who was uh quite an academic sort of guy and everything, and and was an antiquarian book dealer, would you believe? And he very quickly realized that wasn't for me. And he gave me a great piece of advice. He said, Whatever you do, just work as hard as you can at it and you'll you'll get the rewards. And by the way, find something that you like. And so I was I was pretty fortunate in in finding sports broadcasting. You talk about the Oxford Mail there, Deck. I mean, that was I didn't realize it at the time. My four years training that I had on there was invaluable to me, really. And I it's quite sad that modern broadcasters don't get that sort of training because local newspapers have pretty much collapsed in that in that form over here. And uh I was very, very lucky to get that. The£13 a week. I'm I'm pretty happy that I'm not uh that I moved on a little bit from that. But for that£13 a week, I got a fantastic education at the Oxford Mail, sort of Oxa University style education, if you like, at the local paper. And I I learned principles there that I carried right the way through my broadcasting career and still do.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I've become very sort of philosophical in my old age, Jim. In that I think life, you know, prov provides uh such an adventure, but things sort of work out for a reason. And you know, as you were running around in the back garden doing your football commentary, you didn't have a crystal ball, you didn't know how it was going to turn out. But it's just amazing what a life and a professional career you've had. I mean, how did you actually um make that transition from local newspapers to local radio to national TV in sort of distinct four-year chunks? Was it a deliberate strategy or did it just happen by accident?
SPEAKER_02No, there was no deliberate strategy involved. Um, I decided after four years at the Oxford Mail, when the editor called me in and said, Well, we decided to improve your pay to£28.50 a week. I thought there might be some better places for me to go to if I'm on this. I always wanted to broadcast. Local radio had just started um at that time. And um I got an opportunity to go to go to Birmingham, actually to work on, would you believe, a hockey magazine and a snooker magazine there, because I was quite a good hockey goalkeeper at an England trial and things like that. Um, but as part of that deal, I got the opportunity to broadcast on local radio on Radio Birmingham, which was another fantastic learning curve for me. And it gave me gave me the ability to to, you know, I always knew my voice was gonna be okay. Um four years on local radio. I mean, I met my wife Chrissy there, which was great as well, and we're amazingly in the media world still together. Um uh, but you know, uh and I didn't have any any real, I've got to do this by then and that by then. But um, my four years on local radio ended in 76 when I was sent to do the Montreal Olympics. Um, and I knew then that I was gonna be going down to national radio in London, where again I did another four years' work with some fantastic broadcasters, Des Lion and Peter Jones, Alan Parry, Christopher Martin Jenkins, might not be known worldwide, but in this country they're they're huge figures, and that was wonderful for me, those those four years there. And then 1980 ITV came calling, and I think, as you said in your intro, I don't think Mandela got as long as I did actually at ITV. I'd served my 32 years there, which was uh uh it's quite a long time in the coconut shy of television sports broadcasting.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, absolutely remarkable, Jim. Um let's get into the World Cups because obviously that's the meat and potatoes of of our podcast, talking historically about the World Cups, and we're we're back, we're back going chronologically backwards, and we're back, we've just covered 1970.
SPEAKER_02Can I go four years back from that just for me? Yeah, definitely. World Cup 66, amazingly, I joined the England Supporters Club. I was 17, 18 at the time, and uh for 25 pounds, you got 10 matches at Wembley, 25 pounds. And I watched as a kid, I just passed my driving test, drove up to Wembley from Oxford where I was living, and watched all 10 games, including the World Cup final at Wembley in 1966. That Jeff Hurst goal was miles over the line, by the way. I don't know what all the eyes are. And uh and as I walked away when England won the World Cup and saw the knobby styles doing that jig, and it's you know, think it's all over, it is now. If you'd have said to me we will be sitting here in 2026 and England will never win another World Cup, I would have had a serious argument about with you. But that's what's happened. But that was my first World Cup memory. I'm sorry to interrupt you, and I'm sorry if it's being put this podcast out of sequence already.
SPEAKER_04No, no, no, absolutely no problem because we had a very interesting podcast last week where I interviewed a good friend of mine, Gordon Messino, who was also at the 1966 World Cup. He ended up with Sir Jeff Hurst's shirt, the one he scored. Good on him, and had it in his possession for numerous years, and then um a few years ago he sold it on, and it that shirt, by all accounts nowadays, is on the market for one million pounds. Yes, yeah, looking for a buyer. So um, and Gordon Gordon's a very interesting guy because his son, John, is the Portsmouth manager.
SPEAKER_02Got you, John Massinio, of course, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Who obviously played at Oxford close to you. I don't know if you ever go and watch Charles.
SPEAKER_02I know I know Port, yeah, no, I know I know John well of Portsmouth.
SPEAKER_05I don't I don't think Gordon's gonna thank you, Declan, for saying that uh the most interesting thing about him is his son.
SPEAKER_02That's true. No, that's true, and by the way, it's probably worth more than that because what that Maradona shirt that that that fetched seven million dollars for Steve Hodge, didn't it? Which again, we're jumping World Cups there, but uh so he might be underestimating the only man to get a hat one of to get a hat-trick in the World Cup final, um, Jeff Hurst. I would think it might be worth a bit more. Sorry, on you go. I'm interrupting you.
SPEAKER_04So so you so so then your early experience of World Cups was as a good old-fashioned support.
SPEAKER_02I was a fan of it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and obviously, uh as I've been doing my research, football is your first love when it comes to sports, even though you're very talented and knowledgeable about multiple other sports.
SPEAKER_02It's all sorry, Decan, it's always been the background. It's all I would describe it as my backbone, um, football. It's all all all the way through, really. Um football has uh has been there. I've bounced around and done other sports as well. Um, but football uh I would always view as my as the backbone of my career.
SPEAKER_04So professionally, you actually covered uh eight World Cups. When did you start and when did you finish? Which World Cups did you cover?
SPEAKER_02Okay, um, the first World Cup I did was Argentina 78, where I went with BBC Radio, and we had a studio in Buenos Aires, which uh it was like a very small cabin, I think I was in, and I and I did the World Cup there for BBC Radio, presented it um in 78, and had to go back a bit early because Peter Jones, who was the main commentator, used to present Wimbledon as well, but he couldn't do it. So they threw me into presenting Wimbledon, which is another one of these sports. I was thrown off the the top board, if you like, and had to learn very, very quickly. And again, I was in a dungeon at Wimbledon and put in there and linking to the various courts. And there's a nice line for you at the end of it. Uh the last Friday I got out to watch some mixed doubles or something, and dear old Fred Perry, who was a great great doing of of uh of British tennis, he came up to me and he said to me, Jim, you'll go down in broadcasting history. There's a man who went to the football world cup in Wimbledon and never saw a ball hit or kicked. And he was it was pretty close to spot on, if I'm honest. But that 78 World Cup, I mean, again, listen, you go to places and you do the event, if you start looking below the surface, um, it's probably not great what you see. But I'm always I've always been a believer. I'm not I'm not endorsing a country by going and working there. You have to go to countries and do events that you might not agree with their policies and politics. And and that was that was us, even though I always had that view, that was a strange World Cup with the the widows protesting because their husbands had disappeared and things like that. And we thought it was a joke that when we went there, the media center didn't have phones, and so what they did a week beforehand, they ripped 6,000 domestic phone lines out and put them in the media center. And for the six weeks of the World Cup, no people close to the media center didn't have phones, and we thought it was funny. Well, actually, it wasn't funny because it just showed the authoritarian regime that existed in Argentina in 1978.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there I was as a 14-year-old kid getting up in the middle of the night with my dad to watch it on the sofa. That those are the images. Obviously, your images were were very much closer to the ground. My images and memories as a 14-year-old with how exciting it was to get up in the middle of the night to watch the games.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it was a fantastic. I mean, and all the ticker tape and everything. Um there the name Maradona was around as well. Well, we've got this amazing kid, and he didn't, he didn't actually, this is amazing kid the maze, and will they play? And they didn't, but but that was that was the first time that uh that I heard that I heard that name.
SPEAKER_04So you were there with the BBC doing the radio. Um what did you did you go to um the following World Cup in Spain in 82?
SPEAKER_02I did indeed. That was my first, that was our first World Cup with ITV, and I I was the England reporter, and we talk about the the the the amazing advance of technology where I can sit here in Berkshire and talk to you guys, one in Mexico and one in Orlando. Well, then the first is called Electronic News Gathering, and that was just coming in, and we got live pictures and a live interview from the England camp. Mick Mills were England captain. I did an interview with him there. And um uh there was jubilation when we managed to do a live interview from Bill Bao in Spain and get it back on ITV and how technology has raced on since then. But that was that was that was a good experience for me with the England camp, and there were all sorts of stories in that. Um Kevin Egan had a bad back, and and we were nipping to Germany to get treated and things like that. And England went England went a long way. Um uh, but uh um Ron Greenwood was was was managing and the nicest of football managers as well. But it was a really good introduction for me for working with the England team, which I subsequently did in 86 and 1990 as well.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, just um just interesting, Jim. Obviously, you you transitioned from radio to TV, and it sort of struck me, and of course, there's uh similarities between the two, but um what are the sort of fundamental differences from a broadcast perspective? I mean, beyond the image, you know, beyond the fact that, of course, you talk to camera and you know that you're on uh that you're live and you're being viewed. But are there any sort of subtle differences in terms of how you regard the or regarded the two um as you broadcast across them?
SPEAKER_02That's a great that's a great question, John. And I think when I went to ITV, I was pretty sure. And listen, I've been unbelievably lucky with this voice of mine. I've never had a second's voice training. It's just turned out, and it's it's it's it's a voice that people seem to like to listen to and seems relatively easy on the ear. And people say, Oh, but I have been so fortunate in that. And and uh so I always knew the voice was okay. The face is is different, and staring into a camera is different. Um, and it's it's quite can be when you first start, you are shaking, to be quite honest. You really are, because radio is much more intimate, bit like we are here, if you like. Uh whereas the lights, cameras, people in your ears, etc. etc. And um, and someone said to me early on when I was doing it, you said, look a bit serious, Jim. Why don't you smile a little bit more? And I was doing the sort of the the news items on uh on a Saturday night, and Kevin Keegan had ruptured his knee ligaments in a game. And I said, Well, and the big news today, and I put a big smile on Kevin Keegan has ruptured his knee ligaments and he's likely to be out for three or four months minimum. And then they said, Don't you like Keegan? I said, What are you talking about? He said, Well, you were laughing when you were talking about his ruptured knee ligaments. I said, I'm not having that, and they showed it me back, and I was, and I thought then, right, you just do it in the way you feel comfortable. Some people won't like it, some people will like it, and that's the only way, and you have to be yourself because if you're not that camera, um, which is unforgiving, will always find you out. But if anyone says they're totally at ease all the time with TV broadcasting, well, they're telling lies because it will it will nip you in the bum very, very quickly if you get it wrong.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, there's a lot more variables with TV, isn't there? There are there are than with radio. Yeah, there are more that can go wrong, and of course, yeah, I mean, more that you you've got to keep a keep an eye on as well. It's um it's a it's a much more, I mean, there's an obvious pointless, but a three-dimensional broadcast medium. Whereas with with radio, one of the things I love about radio um is the sort of it, the intimacy of it, and the fact that you only have the voice, and that in a way means that you you generate other pictures um around that. It doesn't sort of um sate your thirst in in a way, nothing against t TV, but um, but yeah, the the it seems to me that this the sort of the contemporary obsession with the visual media is sort of missing a trick a little bit to some extent.
SPEAKER_02I think I think um what has happened now is it's a topic for another podcast, is is that again when you're told from radio, and the one of the earliest things I was people have got eyes, people will see the television pictures, and it's your role to add to them. I think now that golden rule has been forgotten, and you get wall-to-wall chat where you don't really need it, particularly during matches. Um, and uh uh and I I think that uh if if you look back at commentary and things like that, you will see hear people saying far less, which actually suits my brain better. It might be different these days that people need 45 minutes filling all the time, no silences. Um, that's another topic, and I'm I'm straying, probably straying off topic here a little bit. Apologies again.
SPEAKER_04It's all great, all great, all fascinating. I think I think it's great, John, because obviously uh Jim and myself are on a video feed as well here, and I can see with with his face and obviously his his his gorgeous voice, he has that face for TV and that voice for TV. You are definitely in a comfort zone. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Listen, I'll tell you what, Doug, that that's I mean, I some someone once said the face hasn't been invented that everybody likes, you know, and and uh you you've got you know, I say you you you you've got to have a pretty thick skin, I think, when you put your face on telly and have a bit of a sense of humor as well. But you're right about this is fantastic. This is just feels so so intimate and so relaxed, and it's like like talking to a couple of mates in a pub or something like that.
SPEAKER_04That's exactly the scenario I was gonna say. This is exactly what it's like, and and obviously we've spoken, but this is the first time you've met with John, and we all seem like buddies talking about some great times from decades ago. Absolutely, absolutely so um, so Jim, with regards to um the actual World Cups, because otherwise this will be a two-hour podcast if we go through every World Cup. Which which ones which one actually stands out vividly and and and what what are the reasons it stands out?
SPEAKER_02Well, I I mean listen, um yeah, John John's in in Mexico, close to Mexico City. That '86, the Maradona game, I was behind the goal again with my ITV crew for England, and that is one of the iconic World Cup moments ever. And I was very much up close to it. And it happened, and it he did it so quickly, Maradona. Then I and I and and I said to my cameraman, I said, What did what did he do? What's happened then? He said, I don't know, I just don't know. And um, and it's so you sort of had a grudging admiration for the skill of Maradona for doing what he did. And I didn't know then that I was gonna be close up to one of the most iconic moments of of the World Cup. Um, and in in in again, in retrospect, you go, What a lucky man you were to be behind that goal when Maradona did Maradona did that. So that's that's a huge story, again, worth it worth a podcast on its own. 1990, and again I'm with England, and again, things have changed um so much, guys, in that I you know I've still got friends from those England teams, 82, 86, and 90. Um, and you could form relationships with them. We stayed in the England Hotel then, and the internet didn't exist, YouTube didn't exist, and so they're coming to us, oh, can we have a look at that other game? Would you pipe the English commentary through? Of course we will, because that was the only way they could see it. And they would sit in their room and we'd they'd get the ITV commentary, and you'd have a you have a bond with those players. So when they kept when I could say any chance of interview, oh yeah, course, course, course. And we did and we did things that we put the derby live into the England camp, and they had they were they had a they had a betting, you know, they were people were betting on the Derby. Peter Shilton and Brian Robertson were collecting the bets. Can you imagine that now? I mean, it's just you look at it, you think, did that really happen? Look, and it did, and it did. And I had a you know, and Bobby Robson, again, I'm so I feel so fortunate that he was in my life for quite a while, Bobby Robinson, because a more genuine human being and a football lover, and very, very good at getting the most horrible of footballers to play for him as well. And it's fantastic, and Italia 90, that was a great, great tournament and And it was, and again, the image is I've got the old you know the waddle and pierce penalties that that are engraved in there as well. Um, and it was it was you you almost felt part of the team, you almost felt part of the team, and and so I think Italian IT, although the actual football that was played was pretty dreadful when you look at it and analyse it. That's my favorite World Cup, really.
SPEAKER_04It's it's it's it was it was a real shame that that England didn't take it over the line and win that World Cup for Sobby because the build-up, if I remember rightly, was quite toxic.
SPEAKER_02And uh I mean it was listen there, there was a circulation war going on between the sun and the mirror, who could get the worst stories about England, and and of course there was the fans thing as well, with England coming back after being excluded from Europe on the back of Heisel and Hillsborough. They got thrown down to Sardinia. It was we did a little story there, and everyone said, Oh god, that's a terrible place, Sardinia. And we went there and we were put up with the England team in a place called the Forty Village, the highest luxury that you could you can imagine. And we were because we had to do so much with the team, we we were we were staying there and we wound up the team in Rome, the the ITV team, and I was in this place is bloody dreadful. Honestly, you can't believe this, it's just absolutely awful. Don't worry, we'll do you a piece about it because just show what the England team are. We sent them this piece, and there's beaches and gyms and bars and restaurants, and and Sardinia. Let me tell you, Sardinia was not the hellhole that it was that it was painted as a beautiful, beautiful island. So that was one of the great misconceptions that uh the England fans were sent to this dreadful place, and actually it's a very nice island.
SPEAKER_04I was listening to a recent podcast from The Three Lions, which is you know the uh almost like the the the mouthpiece for the England Suborders Travel Club, and there was a guy who was being interviewed, who's a Chelsea fan, who who who's basically been to every virtually every Chelsea game homeland ever, and also England games. He he actually spoke about being a a a friendly or two in Sardinia.
SPEAKER_02Really? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So they must they actually played some games there whilst they were there.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, that's right. No, the the I think England play England played a game against a game against a village to sort to sort of you know to so that the fans would support England. There was a massive PR campaign that went on there. Don't get me wrong, I think the Sardinian police were very, very keen to show the world how strong they were. And I thought when you talked about fans there, I think that the 102 fans were very much on the on the on the receiving end of it there. But when you when you're in the team is in a cocoon, really, you'd you're not aware of you're not aware of and uh of all this stuff going on, and mercifully I was not deployed to cover any any any any crowd problems. I mean, I actually wouldn't do it anyway, because that's a completely different form of journalism for me.
SPEAKER_04So so just just to press down, Jim, um was it 78 or was it 1990 that gives you goosebumps?
SPEAKER_02Um that's a that's a that's that is a a good question. I think I think probably 1990, I think, is is is the one that that um that that that gives me goosebumps. I th I think so, but um uh no way whether but 78 was my first time my first time working, but but there was no particular incident in Argentina whether that that really would would get me at it. But it was a fantastic broadcasting experience, and and I actually love Buenos Aires as well. Lovely city.
SPEAKER_01So that's it from us for today.
SPEAKER_04And if you just can't get enough of us, you can support us and get access to our premium content on the Patreon, consisting of special interviews, deep dives, and QA's. You will find a link to our Friends of the World Sports etc. Patreon page in the show notes.
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SPEAKER_01Also check out our World Sports etcetera podcast for more sports news and stories. And with that, thank you so much for listening and goodbye.