SPECIAL INTERVIEW: Mexican Superfan Mario Paúl Pfeiffer - Part Two

Paul Schmidt-Troschke speaks to Mario Paúl Pfeiffer, a walking encyclopedia on Mexican sports, about wide-ranging topics, including the upcoming tournament. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Hello and welcome to World Cup Exception Row with me, Hanskutroske, and today I bring you the second part of the interview I conducted with Mario Paulo Pfeiffer, the sports superfan, who slowly moved away from Mexican football even though he is a football diehard and instead opted to watching Mexican baseball. In the second part, we are going to dive into the topics of corruption and conflicts of interest within not only the Mexican and National Football Leagues, but within the National Football Federation as well. And we are also going to learn from Mario about a quite sad topic, namely how the Mexican football communities, fan communities all over the country, and of course the fan community of the Mexican national team, slowly but surely not only got eroded in many cases, but were destroyed. But without further ado, here is the second part of our fascinating interview with Mario Pau Pfeiffer. I've heard that uh there is some uh, let's say, unintuitive uh ownership structures within Mexican football. Um maybe maybe we can start uh maybe we can start with that.

SPEAKER_07 1:47

Yeah, you actually uh you hit a really important point on how the Mexican Football Federation has actually been destroying fan bases for a while now. But ever since the dawn of times in Mexican football, there has always been a big, big uh conflict of interest in terms of ownership. Who runs the federation, who owns uh certain clubs, and obviously uh who owns a big, big or the biggest television, uh the biggest media company in Mexico. Basically, everything started with the wrong food. Because um in the 1950s, I mean before the most popular sport in Mexico was baseball, which we we talked about it a little bit at the beginning of this interview. Uh, but then in the in in the decade in the 50s, there was this really, really crucial character in terms of Mexican politics and Mexican media and Mexican uh basically culture. Somebody called the Emilio Ascarraga, who in 1959 bought the America Club, the one we were talking about a bit before a bit before. And in a really weird kind of development of things, he also bought the team, but then he got a a concession to be the owner of the the Mexican state media company, and then he privatized that one, and then he became the president or well, I mean the the owner of the Mexican Football Federation. So you have uh a character that owns three the three most important things in in in football, right? The federation, a club, and uh the media or or the a media company, right? So ever since the beginning, you you you had few chat few few options of of really supporting your local team because the big one, the one that got all the attention, the one you could watch the the matches in the in the TV, it was basically America. And obviously he knew as a business person that he needed uh somebody who antagonized America, and that's why Chivas also grew so so powerful or so big, because they were the other side or the the rivals, right? So that's why you have it's so so weird now that you mentioned that in Europe you probably won't have a lot of I don't know, Hamburg fans in in Berlin, right? Well you probably find a few, but but in general, you you wouldn't find many many many fans. And here in Mexico, it doesn't work like that. If you go to every city, every single city in the in the country, you will find America fans. And that's the the the the thing is that uh that that was created by the fact that this really important character basically bought a team, bought the Mexican Football Federation, and had uh the biggest media company called Televisa, which has been basically really, really close to to football, and that company made football the bigger, the the biggest sport in Mexico. Obviously, if you go to certain regions, you will probably find many local football fans, but if you if you take into account the fact that the Televisa really pushed America and Guadalajara's rivalry throughout the years, and with the fact that no promotion and relegation in in Mexican football for a while, you basically have few choices to support a team. For instance, I used to support a club called Querétaro, small club, never ever you were gonna find them fighting for the championship. You were always going to find them either fighting for promotion or fighting uh to avoid relegation. But then I simply I ceased to support the the that club because I mean what why do you watch football anymore for like what's the point? There's nothing to to to to play for. So so I mean, I'm talking about how they this the the the decisions of the federation and the decisions that the league took uh a while ago has been slowly killing football fans or football culture in Mexico from uh I mean the the general perspective and from the individual perspective or the specific perspective that something that basically happened to me, and I met plenty of other people around uh the football uh the the plenty of people in Mexico that basically ceased to support a team because what's the point, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um and uh we can we can see uh of course not not similar developments, um, because as you said, Mexican football really started out on the wrong foot to begin with. Um with uh having these uh the I would say the biggest conflicts of interest there can be having that uh right at the at the yeah basic basically the birth of of Mexican national, uh big national football. Um and uh I think there's a there's another uh very weird fact um that there is a betting company, right, involving owning clubs. Maybe you can elaborate on that uh regarding the the present time right now.

SPEAKER_07 7:38

Yes, um it has actually been uh a joke for a while now because um even though I've been I've been talking about how powerful America is, how they own the Federation, how they own the biggest media company in Mexico. Uh but you still have and you still listen to to plenty of people criticizing that power structure, but you never listen to anybody criticized what you just mentioned, which basically has to it has to do with the fact that a the biggest betting company in Mexico called Caliente, well they used to own three clubs, which is weird per se, right? How can you have uh somebody owning more than one club in uh in a in a league? But again, it's not just that, it's the fact that it's a betting company taking decisions over a football pitch, which is it's I mean, just the the the thought of it, it's it's so weird, right? And fun fact, one of the teams that used to be owned uh by this betting company was my my club, Queretaro Football Club, right? So they basically have uh Tijuana Football Club, which is a a city located in right next to the to San Diego in the United States. It's a a border uh city. And to people who have ever been in Tijuana or who wants to who want to to be to a really surreal city, you should really try going to Tijuana. It's a really interesting experience. And the casino there, the caliente casino, it's massive, it's it's like like a city within a city. And not just that, uh but uh the fact that uh they went into football, I think it was uh back in 2010 when uh I mean gambling was basically legalized in Mexico in the early 2000s, uh but the really, really, really jump, the the the big jump was was probably in the 2010, 2009, and that's when this group, Caliente, they bought the Tijuana Football Club, they started getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Up until now, they used to own Querétaro, they sold it, but I'm gonna I'm quoting on quoting because it's really unclear right now, because there's basically no transpiracy at all in Mexican football, at all, like no transparency at all. But there was a point where they used to own Tijuana Football Club, Querétaro Football Club, and in the Liga Expansion on the second tier, there was this club which they still own called Dorados, which is from Culiacan. And not just that, it's the fact that out of the 18 football teams that right now play in the Liga MX in the first division, 17 of them have the caliente uh sport um uh sponsorship. Yeah, yeah, that that's the word I was looking for. Yes. So I mean, I don't want to be uh a bad person whenever I I'm suspicious about this, but I mean come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

I mean it it uh it can't really can't get uh like a more um yeah uh F you in the face of of the fans and uh and it's basically impossible to not get cynical over uh over Mexican national football um if you if you know about these uh these facts and I mean that that you don't even that it's not clear who owns clubs right now. Um that is of course a I don't know um a lack of transparency is uh is definitely a big understatement there. Uh it's pretty insane. I would say it's pretty insane. And um just to uh to um show a little bit of uh German football patriotism here. Um in Germany you have uh the so-called 50 plus one rule, which I also uh already uh reported on uh here on the podcast. And I think that is uh that is a very, very good solution, um, or like a very good compromise between fans holding control over the club, but the club still being open to uh investment. Uh and of course the 50 plus one rule states that the fans um or that the the organization which uh the fan organization which uh always has to own 51% of the club. So um that uh that an investor never can make decisions just how he wants because he can only acquire 49% uh 49% stake uh stake in the club. But um, yeah, apart from that, um after all uh hearing all these uh stories and facts and history uh of Mexican football, I guess that is the reason why you moved away from uh from the Liga MX uh and now support um or follow or follow the uh Mexican baseball league. Is the situation there uh a little different?

SPEAKER_07 12:52

That's exactly the point of why I moved away from Mexican football, because I'm still watching football all all day long. I mean European time football. So whenever the clock hits three o'clock in Mexico, I no longer watch football. But um that's the that's the the um one of one of the the the big reasons of why not it's not just me, but people in general moving away from football. A tendencies to to stadiums have been decreasing for a while now, for many reasons, and some of them have to do with an increase in violence in in stadiums as well. The economic situations, obviously, which I mean just it doesn't apply just to Mexico but to all of the world, and the violence situations as well. Just not not in Mexico but to all to all the all of the world. But the fact that that you just have um feeling that the Mexican Federation and the Mexican owners of the of the football clubs, they don't they they just don't care for for fans at all, like at all. They just watch you as somebody who will will give them your money, and that's it. And and that's why attendances have been have been really dropping. And in terms of how things work in baseball, there's still some conflict of interest in that league as well. There's some owners that have a couple of clubs, right? Uh baseball clubs, that still happens in in in baseball, but the general sensation it's it's different. You do feel like the owners, I mean, I'm gonna be so naive right now, but you do feel like the owners sort of care for the fan, obviously because you're dropping money, but they they they make the spectacle the spectacle good, they make good um uh dynamics, they they they make you feel part of the club, not just they they don't make you feel like an outsider that just goes there for 90 minutes, leave as much money as you can, and then go back to your place to to keep on working for for the next week, so you can bring money to the stadium. You it it it has it it's a different sensation in in baseball here in Mexico. And I mean, I'm talking about from a from a really centrist uh uh perspective because I live in Mexico City, I have three of the biggest clubs uh near me, or like sort of near me. But I mean, if you go to cities where they used to have a really, really strong uh local fan base, like cities like Irapuato in the Catholic Mexican Belt, or uh cities like Veracruz in the in the the most famous port in Mexico, they used to have a local strong fan base, they used to love football, and now it's gone. It's gone because there's nothing to to fight for, and I mean Mexican football fans are basically fed up with the fact that they're not being taken into account in any way.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Um yeah, I guess I guess what what you're uh what you're saying is that um even though Mexican baseball might also be corrupt, etc., big conflicts of interest, they still um have at least uh as one of their um uh of their goals to promote the sport and to make the sport more enjoyable for the fan. Uh while that does not seem to be the case in in Mexican football, national football, um, at all anymore. It's just about money extraction. And um yeah, I guess that's what what the what you want to say is the difference in the end.

SPEAKER_07 16:50

Yeah, I mean uh you you you really you made my point there. Um I think that one of the the I mean speaking about my general ideas, I think one of one of the the most difficult things that Mexican football is facing right now is the fact that or I mean I and I really like this because you know one of the big, big concepts of of people that really defend capitalism, it's like competition equals more money, and more money equals more competition, right? Or or better competition or whatever, whatever the concept is. But in Mexican football, it has actually been proven that that's not right at all. Because the owners are making more money, but the competition is like getting worse every day. And and and in baseball, as I said, it's been on the other way the other way around. People still they they they fight. I mean, obviously there's a there's um uh how you call it that there's a a nature to to each sport. Baseball is really different, the league is really different, structured because baseball is a different sport than to football, right? So I think that that that we have to take that into account, but still you need to to realize that football is in Mexico, it's simply not working right now. Like not working at all. Yeah, and and I I really wanted to to bring that out because you you even feel it in the fact that that we have a World Cup coming up, and you you just don't feel it. I mean, everyone talks about the World Cup, but no one's excited about it.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

So yeah, uh I mean I live uh outside of Mexico City here. Um so uh but I I would lie if I would say that I feel uh the excitement in the air or something like this, um, or see many people walking around in uh in Mexica, uh Mexican national or national team football shirts, of course. Yeah, I mean uh my my last question um was exactly uh targeting that. How excited are you for the for the upcoming World Cup, which of course faces uh similar challenges uh as Mexican football itself? Uh world football is in a in the biggest crisis right now, I think it's ever been in. And uh secondly, uh what are your hopes for the Mexican national team? And do you think that they have a chance to maybe not win the tournament, um, but to at least get out of the group stage, maybe into the round of 16? Uh what is what is your prediction there?

SPEAKER_07 19:34

I mean, of course, I'm I'm I'm excited. I am this um if if I want to be negative and and cynical about it, I really like I love football, and it doesn't matter how corrupt and how many middle fingers FIFA gives uh gives me to or shows me to to my face, I'm always gonna be watching it. Probably my the the way that I cope with it is the fact that I use and I don't want to upset anybody in Europe, but I'm not hiring any streaming services to watch the football. I'm just gonna use pirate um uh web pages, and it's not because I don't believe in paying for the for for the for for for the football uh games, it's just that I don't think it it it's worth it. And um I am really excited. I I would really like to to to have a good time to watch football fans because they are the the least responsibles of this this crisis that football is right now having. But I've I really want in in a way it's a bit con uh it's a bit of a contradiction because I really want the tournament to fail because of all the geopolitical things that have been surrounding the the tournament and the way that FIFA has acted uh in this really weird uh platonic relationship that they established with Donald Trump. I don't know. I I want fans to enjoy football, I want to have a good football World Cup, but I really wish that stadiums are empty. I don't know how to explain that that and I'm still watching the games, so so that's it. And regarding the Mexican football team, I made a promise to myself that if they because because they when when they abolished relegation and promotion, uh they started this public discourse that was, you know, we're doing this for the for the benefit of football, we're doing this for the benefit of clubs, we're doing this for the benefit of of having a better, more transparent football, which of course is Pollox. So I promised to myself I was not going to support the Mexican national football team uh if they uh took away promotion of relegation. So uh I haven't cheered for the Mexican football team for a while now. And I think they do have a good chance of going to the next stage. I mean, look at the look at the the the group. It's not a really challenging group, I guess. And if you put the uh in on the table that probably three out of four uh teams are going through to the next round, probably Mexico will go through. But I really hope that they lose all the matches. I mean the the Federation is never going to change. I realize that. They're never gonna let the money go away from them. They're never gonna let power uh they're never gonna release the the power that they have uh on football. So basically my best hope is that they make the least money and the least profit out of it. Probably that that's my my conclusion.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, uh I I mean uh quite uh for for a European uh for the European ears, um or also the the the American ears maybe uh quite an extreme statement. Um but taking into account uh how you ended up at this position, um and how these big money interests and uh corruption in general just uh destroyed your um your enjoyment or your uh your ability to enjoy the sport, uh I can very much understand your your hatred towards uh these these organizations. And um yeah, I mean with with FIFA and the ticket prices, for example, um I also at this point uh not only secret secretly wish that uh seats will be a lot of seats will be empty. Um not that uh that the players don't deserve to be to be watched, uh of course. Um but just yeah, as a as a signal to FIFA that uh that they can't extort the the fans just how they want, uh and just depend on them that they always uh will come back. And I think you are a living example that there is actually a limit to what football fans, uh even really, really passionate football fans are willing to take. At some point, it's just uh it's just enough. And um regarding the I think the regarding the piracy point, uh of course this is a uh it's it's a delicate topic. Um uh especially it it was a delicate, a very delicate topic, um, more so 10-15 years ago, where people also in Germany actually went uh paid like uh huge six, seven figure sums for uh fines for, for example, copying music. Uh but nowadays um nobody seems to give a damn anymore about copying. Um especially where when AI companies can just copy and and steal everything and uh nobody seems to care. Um and if I in Germany, for example, if I want to watch every uh Bundesliga game, I want to watch the uh the Champions League, and I want to watch the uh German national uh um the National FA Cup, uh I have to pay, I think, uh upwards to 120 euros a month. Um and that that of course uh is more than more than a thousand dollars or a thousand euros or almost one and a half thousand dollars per year just to be able to watch all the games on on my screen. And uh you can get a um a permanent ticket in in in in a in a at a nice German club for that, for that money, to actually see the games live and experience all the emotions with all the people around you. Um so I um I must say uh very, very fair point. Um, not to promote it here uh on the podcast, um, but I really struggle uh uh yeah to denounce it or something like this. Um so I think it's a it's a very logical and expectable reaction from a fan perspective to seeing how everything is moving on on the business side. Yeah, so uh Mario, thank you so much for this interview. Uh I think the people who listened to this episode will have a very good idea of how of our Mexican football uh looks, um uh both on like the league and also the the FA stage. Um so thank thank you very much for that. And uh I think uh that this is probably not gonna be the last time you will be on the podcast, especially when when the tournament is uh is going on, has started, and then with Mexico actually playing. Uh I I am very sure you have a very valuable commentary to add at some point. So thank you very much for that.

SPEAKER_07 26:39

Uh no, thanks for having me. Um I'm sorry if I didn't perform the Amitope because you know English is not my first language, but still uh I'm always it will always be a pleasure to be in this podcast. I'm um ever since you told me, I've been listening to it and I think it's it's a great content. So th thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Thank you so much, Mario. So that's it from us for today.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

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SPEAKER_06 27:18

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SPEAKER_00 27:25

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