SPECIAL INTERVIEW: Danish Sports Journalist Mikkel Bruun Christensen

Jon Bonfiglio interviews Mikkel Bruun Christensen about Danish football, failing to qualify for the World Cup, the 'Danish Dynamite' team of 1986 and much more.

Christensen has just released a book (in Danish) called: "World Cup - How the world's biggest sporting event became the world's biggest power game".

The book explores the dark side of football and tells the story of how the leather ball has become entangled in a web of corruption, control and political cynicism. But also of its unmistakable power to unite. For better or worse.

https://www.saxo.com/dk/vm-i-fodbold_bog_9788785372123?srsltid=AfmBOoq4oIcxXdubVrVxLUYnjq2eOtm2Yqq7L9jgk0AfUjIMyf0URs32

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Welcome back to the World Cup etc. with me, John Bonfiglio. And today I'm delighted to say that I'm joined in conversation by Mikkel Brun Christensen, Danish sports journalist, who's also just recently published a book on the upcoming World Cup and will be in Mexico to cover the tournament this summer. Hello, Mikkel. Hi. How are you doing? How are things over in uh in Europe? Uh busy preparing to come over to this side of things, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Yeah, really. I mean, we got a bit of an an upset by not qualifying, but uh some journalists like me will still go and hopefully cover the settlement uh as as good as we can.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

That's an interesting point, actually. Um I'm gonna I was gonna start with your book, but I I wonder whether um from a journalistic perspective, does your country not qualifying? Does that remove pressure a little bit? Does that mean that there's I mean, I'm guessing you're not just covering for Danish media as well, but how does how how does it feel for you the difference between the sort of the national pressure of qualification as to put as opposed to potentially a sort of a more objective um view?

SPEAKER_00 1:36

I mean, it definitely takes a bit of the fun away, but um I mean if you're looking at the like the media landscape of Denmark, there's probably gonna be uh a lot of um disappointed journalists because there are probably a lot more going if Denmark were going to. Um and now I think the coverage is gonna be a bit more about the politics and all this stuff going around the World Cup than actually the the actual matches, because obviously they're also gonna be played. Uh a lot of the matches are gonna be played at night in Denmark um because of the time difference. So I mean it's it's a bit of both because for me, I personally like the like to cover the stuff around the sport more than the actual sport. So so for me it's it's not gonna change that much. But I think there are definitely gonna be uh a lot of disappointed uh people and also a lot of disappointed football fans in Denmark because we really really expect it to uh to qualify.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Yeah, and of course, even it even I guess more of a blow given the fact that it's an expanded expanded tournament. But we'll come to that in in due course. Mikal, maybe we can just start on your um uh on your book. Um what what is its uh obviously it's relates to the upcoming World Cup. What is its focus? What does it cover? Where does it sort of come from, and so on?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Yeah, so it's um I mean I've lived in Mexico uh myself because I studied like uh a year abroad in Mexico City. So my interest in in Mexico and Mexico, Mexican football history is is is coming through that way. Um so I really like decided I wanted to to look into how the the history of the World Cup, the particular the the World Cups, uh the the previous World Cups of uh North America, the one in Mexico in 1970 and and uh 1986, and the one in the United States in 1994. So how they shaped what's to come this summer. So the book is looking into like politics and stuff, but also the the history of the World Cup and in particular the like the politics of FIFA and how how former presidents of of both FIFA but also national presidents of the United States and Mexico have tried have tried to use the World Cup in some way, the same way we're seeing right now with Donald Trump getting in involved with Yanni Infancino and and also uh Claudia Claudia Scheinbaum and Mark Carney in in Canada. Um so that's really like the main idea of the book.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Yeah, the politics of FIFA are pretty inescapable, aren't they? I mean, inescapable because I think um, of course, of um how they are setting themselves up. I mean, it's always been the case, but it seems all the more marked these days, and how they're almost sort of allowing in or enhancing a dystopic football landscape to sort of um to sort of emerge. How is that all sort of played out in in in Denmark? I suppose generally Danish um society and media are pretty sort of aghast and open-mouthed as as to how uh things have uh have developed in both uh the United States and with FIFA and the World Cup over the course of the last few months.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah, I think Danish press is is is known to be like uh yeah, real really free and outspoken um and also very critical, maybe compared to to a lot of other nations. Um and as I said before, there there will be a lot of disappointed uh Danes, but I think there might also be some relieved Danes, um, in particular talking about the the Football Federation buses, um, because they will have to. I mean, uh when when Denmark is not qualified, they can in some sense avoid all these hard questions because they would have to answer answer questions about politics, because of course, um with the World Cup being held in the United States, uh partly, um, and the United States having a president like Donald Trump who uh has in some sense uh threatened Danish uh superiority uh in the case of Greenland, um that would have been a very political question in Denmark, um, and something that football buses would also have to account for. And that's something we also saw when the World Cup was in in Qatar and in Russia, when um media in particular tried to turn it into a political question uh and a footballing question only. And that's I think that's that's media history in Denmark. Um and I'm not trying to say it's a it's the right thing or or the wrong thing, but that's just how it is in Denmark.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Yeah, it's um the Greenland question, of course, is absolutely unavoidable for Denmark at the moment. I mean, I guess there's um it it would be crazy, of course, for at a World Cup there to be because in a way, you know, sports is kind of faux war, um, or certainly sort of emerges from that, that sort of competitive nature between the sort of the primacy of countries. But it'd be crazy for the US to play, for example, Denmark or Denmark to be in a World Cup in which the US is directly threatening its its sovereignty. And then you you you act you ally that or you multiply that by the fact that of course Denmark is a is an actual ally, a historic one of you know the um the US's most important historical allies vis-a-vis NATO and um and and so on. So it's definitely a fraught, uh, I mean it's a fraud time internationally, but it's a particularly fraud time, of course. I I I would have thought as um as regards what being Denmark, well, sorry, what being Danish means at this particular point in history.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Yeah, of course. And and I mean it's it's somewhat the same issue we we're seeing with uh Iran playing in in the United States, and I'm really looking forward to see how that situation plays out because I mean it's not exactly the same because the United States and Iran aren't allies, but I mean it's it's it's like mirroring the situation of what could have been uh by Denmark playing one of the games in in the United States because um Denmark was drawn if had they qualified uh instead of uh Czech Republic, they would have been drawn into group A, meaning they would have to meet Mexico, um South Korea, and South Africa, and two of the games would have been in Mexico, but one of them would have been in the United States, so the question would have been um I mean it it would have been a question.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Yeah, absolutely. Well, and and um Denmark not qualifying for the for the World Cup. How does how does that how did that feel for the country? Um what's the sort of the impact as regards that the the the footballing absence, I suppose?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

I mean, absolutely, absolutely terrible. And and I think the the football federation and the national team coach have been uh criticized very harshly, but also very how do you say I think the critique is fair because um you have to think about Denmark uh drew against Belarus uh at home uh after beating them 6-0 uh away. Meaning that we didn't qualify directly, and then we had to go to Scotland to beat them, losing in the last second. And then uh then we had to go to the playoffs. Um we beat Macedonia Northern Macedonia really comfortably and then drew in in the Czech Republic after uh and then losing on penalties. But I think the the thing that multiplies the pain is uh that uh the Danish Football Federation had already before these games uh uh decided to extend the contract of the national team coach who hadn't been in charge for very long and and does not really have uh like a big reputation in Denmark because he hadn't had these these big jobs that we've seen um national team coaches have before. So he's not really respected, and I think it just made it harder for them losing out on this qualification.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, um, so it sounds like a point in crisis in in Danish football. But let me make you feel a little bit better. Let's go back to well, certainly externally, but you'll tell me if I'm wrong. Um, feels like one of the high points or the high point of uh Danish football, Euro uh 92, when of course Denmark hadn't initially qualified, but then emerged late in the day and absolutely remarkably sort of took away the tournament, won the won the tournament. How is that um how is that event sort of remembered? How does that sort of play into Danish footballing folklore uh 30 years on, 30 odd years on?

SPEAKER_00 11:13

I feel like there's three points in time that actually like um tells the story of Danish football. If if we go back actually to the 1986 World Cup in Mexico, I think that's actually the biggest story in Danish football because that's really when when Denmark put themselves on the on the world map, so to speak, of football when when they played in Mexico. And you get you get the feeling that watching these clips, uh I mean, I wasn't born. A lot of people who follow football this way weren't there, but the story of the World Cup in 86 is actually in some sense greater than the World Cup of 92, but it's it's still like a very, very great story in in Danish footballing folklore. So we had the 86, 92, and then we also had the Euro of uh 2021, um which became like an epic tale of more than football, maybe, maybe even more than life, because in the in the first game, um I don't know if you rem remember or seeing it, but but uh Christian Ericsson, he he had like a uh Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

He had absolutely the heart attack or the heart trouble.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

And then then Mark went on to play some of the best football we we'd seen in in many years, and even went on to the Euro semi-final. Um so for my generation that's that's the that's the biggest story, and then after that everything just went yeah downhill, and now we're standing in at a point in time where we can't even qualify for the World Cup because we we can't beat Belarus.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

Yeah, it's um yeah, Belarus is I mean I guess when Belarus crops up in a sort of sporting um sort of story landscape, it's generally because of doping, uh sports doping. It definitely doesn't crop up as a major footballing, footballing nature uh nation for sure. Interesting what you should say about Christian Eric Ericsson, I think, um, because yes, of course, that is that's a moment that is emblazoned in so many minds, and where um of course um Denmark on the football pitch became about so much more than just um it sort of transcended sport and became more about because oftentimes in sports competitions, of course, especially international sports competitions, it's about the nation, the nation's prowess. But then it was all about something else. As you say, it was about life or death, it was about um uh an individual and making it was almost a sort of a moral, there was a moral component, uh how it felt that Denmark were playing through that tournament.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

Yeah, I think they I think that event, um although it being being a terrible, terrible thing, it it really brought the team and and the nation together and everybody everybody just just supported supported Denmark even even other nations. Um and I think that's that's a sort of support that the Danish team hadn't seen since maybe '92 or '86 when when the Danish dynamite team in in Mexico also gained support from other other parts of the world. And and that's maybe also what hurts a bit more in the in the understanding of in the self-understanding of Danish football, because it would have been 40 years since since uh the tournament in Mexico, and and could Denmark have repeated that, then it would have been a really great story.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Let's come to 1986, if if we might, as you say, the Danish dynamite um side. This is how you and I got in got in touch, of course, because you are um one of the interesting things about 1986 is that a lot of the games took place in Sudat. Nessa, uh almost impossible to pronounce. Uh Nessa is short for Nessa Walkoyetan. Uh, I think thank God I managed to to uh to get that one out. Otherwise, I would have um strongly worded messages in our email inbox from Mexican.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

I wouldn't I wouldn't have dared to try that.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

It's a tricky one, but I've I've done it before. So um anyway, so yeah, so it was at this um and umsa is a sort of sprawling um almost sort of um uh uh working class barrios neighborhoods in in Mexico City. It's a huge, huge area. And a lot of the games were played in and they weren't played um at the well, I mean the the Azteca features, but that a lot of them were played in in Nessa as well, uh, which is a uh sort of stadium that has gone into disrepair and something of is something forgotten now. Although there are some moves to sort of bring back some of that cultural heritage, and that's how you and I got in touch with trying to remember, trying to find people in Ciudad Nessa who maybe remember uh the matches being played there, and specifically sort of the the Danish uh side. Because it may can you maybe just explain a little bit then about um why it is that you're trying to find uh people in in Ciudad Nessa and what what you're sort of thinking about focusing on in your in your work that relates to 1986?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Yeah, I mean Denmark being uh being a small country is always interesting when when there's something remembered out in the in the great big world. Um and this the story of of 86 is just so embedded in in Danish football history, and I think the uh the most famous Danish football book as well is also uh is also about this this World Cup in in 86. Um a journalist going back to Mexico actually also to find some some people who who remember the team and and some do. And I think that was published about 20 years ago, and uh and there may still be be people who really like vividly remembers the likes of uh Predem Ilker or Frank Arnesen or Mikel Lautrop. Um and also I think maybe the best known Danish game ever took place there, the 6-1 win against Ugri. Um and that's that's like this the story I want to try and tell the Danish audience that the Danish team is is still remembered all those years, all those years after.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

I'm sure we will find people, certainly um people I've spoken to definitely remember 1986. I think it's it's it's uh just a matter of uh you and I going into the jaws of the beast and um um and you know almost knocking on doors, getting to the stadium and seeing who it is that we find there. But there will be, I I have little doubt that um that there will be people there. So um I look forward to to um you know trying to help you achieve that and you know if possible we can uh sort of come back and record some some reactions to uh to to that journey and to that to that search. Um Mickel, just to to finish up, can we uh one of the things we sort of regularly come back to on the uh on the podcast is sort of different footballing cultures, you know, how different uh teams and nations identify what kind of what kind of football they like to to play and and so on. If um you know, if there's a a 12-year-old that goes out to play um in a in a field on the in a pitch on the outskirts of uh of Copenhagen on a Saturday afternoon, and he is he's thinking about the kind of he or she are thinking about the kind of football that they want to play in terms of emulating a Danish footballing culture. What what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Oh, that's uh that's a that's a tough question actually, because I think the Danish team used to be like when we talk about, for example, 1986 or or the Euros in 2021, it used to be like uh the team image was like a sprawling and attacking football, um like going on the wings and and stuff like that, and and and really being an attacking team, but but then like over the over the last years it's it's really been like a more of more of an more of a defensive style and and a really stable defensive and and a really really good defensive uh team, um not letting in that many goals. But that that's uh that has really changed after the Euros of 2021 because uh it's it's uh difficult to see what the style of play or what what the Danish team really tries to do. And uh I think maybe in some sense if you go on a pitch in in Copenhagen and and you spot a 12-year-old boy, he he's more likely to wear a Man City shirt wearing the the the name Holan on it. So um I think in in that sense you could be a bit jealous of the Norwegian team that that's playing really good and it's also going to the the World Cup. The Danes aren't, but we have to find the find our playing style. But I'm not too sure it's it's gonna be good with this national team coach we have right now.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I mean a reaching points in crisis is kind of natural. Most teams in the world, even Germany, sometimes have their own sort of footballing crises. And I think how people it's not about the crisis itself, it's uh how people respond to the crisis. And I think if if the if if you have the the wrong people in charge that sort of try and paper over the tracks, the the cracks and sort of save their own jobs, perhaps, and just make things 10% better or 20% better, then I think you've got a problem because you're not actually addressing the issues at source. Whereas actually, if you sort of really scale it all back, scrub everything away, and then ask the really big questions, uh, what is our footballing identity, or in any crisis, you know, what is what is our identity? Who it is, who is it that we want to be, what are our real, what are our strengths, what are our capacities, and sort of build a really coherent long term project, uh, almost a sort of a utopic footballing project, then I think you can the crisis is useful uh and can be sort of um really foundations can be built on, but but if if that's not the case. case, then you're just you're just going to be in that stuck in that hamster wheel of ongoing issues, uh, which it sounds as though is the kind of the great Danish worry at the moment is it's it's the the crisis of the moment, but it's the feeling that there is no sort of coherent um series of answers or vision that's being brought forward to address the crisis.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah and that's also from my perspective I think that's individuals in the team being given too much responsibility because we have really good individual players. We have um Pierre-Emile Heubier who's who's the captain of Marseille we have uh Morgan Ullman who's the captain of of sporting uh sporting uh portugal and we have um we have Rasmus Heulan in in the attack who's uh who's been really good for Anapoli as well um but we really like that uh sense of uh of a team feeling I think because even though uh uh these players are stable and and good is just not always what goes into winning a game of football and and that's what we saw when when we played when we played Scotland for example they play more as a team and then it ends up being being maybe luck even deciding and that's not always on your side.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah and if if there is a I mean there's there's many of these figures around but if if there is a figure that we can point to that clearly is sort of um a sort of chalk and cheese that is completely different from his playing capacities from one side to the other that's Rasmus Holland right I mean Manchester United he was a particular kind of dejected outcast figure and then he's somebody completely transformed at at Napoli. So you know that in the right kind of it is actually quite amazing what a difference sort of sporting leadership and everything that comes in under that bubble what an incredible difference that makes to the performance of individuals and a side yeah and you I mean you you could look at uh Marcus Redford a Barcelona and and say the same thing but I think the the the case of Rasmus Holland it's he's been really really good for the national team really good but it's just not enough when when you have one player who's like constant constantly good for the national team but with the players around him not not being able to to follow his lead it's it's not gonna end good.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

But that being said we should should still have have qualified for the World Cup because we had three chances against Belarus against Scotland and and against the Czech Republic and so that should be more than enough to qualify.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

So thanks thanks so much for your time thank you John that was mikkel Bruin Christensen Danish sports journalist and uh his book is uh currently only in uh in Danish but we will link to it in the show notes anyway for any uh danish speakers that they're that they're uh out there so that's it from us for today and if you just can't get enough of us you can support us and get access to our premium content on Patreon consisting of special interviews deep dives and QA's you will find link to our Friends of the World Sports etc patron page in the show notes and of course don't forget to follow us and rate the show on all platforms your support is much appreciated.

SPEAKER_04 25:50

Also check out our world sports etc podcast for more sports news and stories and with that thank you so much for listening and goodbye