DISCUSSION: Reviewing Latin America & Caribbean Nations at the Group Stages

In this joint recording across both World Cup Football ETC and Latin America Correspondent, Paul Schmidt-Troschke & Jon Bonfiglio review the performance of the sides from Latin America & the Caribbean during the group stages of the tournament. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:25

Hi everyone, and welcome back to both World Cup Football, etc., and Latin America Correspondent, where today we are recording a joint podcast across both platforms, in which, after the World Cup group stages, we're going to look at the performances of the sides from Latin America and the Caribbean. And I'm delighted to say that joining me on this is a voice you are all familiar with, whichever podcast it is that you uh listen to. Hello, Paul Schmidt-Trosker.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Hello, John.

SPEAKER_00 0:54

Uh, World Cup Football etc. listeners will of course know Paul as the backbone of the podcast, the the German that everybody loves. And uh and those of you tuning in as regular listeners on the Latin America Correspondent broadcast will know that Paul is an occasional contributor there, also talking about a variety of of topics. Uh now, Paul, uh, we're gonna what we're gonna do is we're gonna look at the this uh just now at the end of the of the group stages, we're gonna look at the 10 teams that qualify from Latin America, the Caribbean, and we're gonna talk about those a little bit, and um and then we're gonna give them a grade, if that's okay. We're gonna give them a grade from A plus right down to E. A plus, of course, being just you know absolutely amazing, exceeded expectations across all areas, and um, and E being well, Uruguay, I think is this is the spoiler, is the spoiler there. Uh the ten teams qualified uh were Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, um, Curacao, Uruguay, Haiti, and Panama. And of those, six have gone through to the knockout stages. All set, Paul.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Um, yes, all set.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

You sound so excited about the prospect of this.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

No, I'm absolutely I'm in. I'm I love to give uh to give grades to uh to teams and people.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Um uh let's start with home nation Mexico. Three wins from three. Uh how did you how have you gauged their performance so far in the uh in the opening matches?

SPEAKER_02 2:35

So um Mexico gets a flat B from me. Um because I think that um although of course they uh kept a clean goal so far, um all loser all uh wins um to know, but you have to factor in the competition, of course. So you have South Africa, South Korea, and the Czech Republic in this group. And I think that uh especially the first two games were um yeah, we're exposing Mexico's main weakness uh so far. Um and that is I think the creative part on in opening spaces, especially on the offense, so deep into the into the um posing half of the pitch. Um yeah, and that's led, and this led to um having Mexico having a quite horrible, I would say, efficiency, um, both in the South Africa, um a little less so in the South Korea game. Um, but um yeah, the efficiency part I think they still lack. And then the game against Czechia was a really nice one. Um, of course, all goals were scored in the in the second half. Um but uh they definitely um yeah, that was the the perfect way to finish up the group stage. First time ever, um yeah, landing on on the first place in a group. So that is my my rationalization behind.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

And I and I pretty much agree with you. Um I think the thing about that third game against Czechia was the fact that the pressure was off them. Um they already knew that they'd they hadn't just qualified, but they'd also qualified as group winners. So and that's always been the issue with Mexico, which which I know I bang on about, is about how they deal with with the pressure. As you say, they scored six goals, conceded none. And the key for them is I mean, they everybody in Mexico knows they're not going to win the World Cup, but um, but the key for them is this uh this mythical fifth game. They were last in the quarterfinals in 1986 when interestingly current coach Javier Aguirre was was player, and since then they've sort of they've flattered to deceive. I I would give them a B plus rather than a B. I mean it's you know we're splitting hairs here, but that's really only because um on the one hand, I do think that they um there was nothing about them that made me think that they're gonna be serious, uh they're gonna scare teams going forward beyond the home advantage. Uh, but of course they're not gonna have that throughout their games because the last um the last game in Mexico is in the in the in the in the group of 16. So and uh and I guess I I extend into the plus because you know ultimately they did do the job. They got the three wins, they won the group. So, you know, that's where I am. But ultimately, yeah, we were pretty much on the same um uh reviewing at the same level there. Um next up, Paul, Argentina.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yes, Argentina gets um a straight A from me. I think that um that basically all all their performances so far have been um very good. Um it's definitely uh in my top three um uh teams so far. Um yeah, and especially considering that uh that the quite old Lionel Messi um still uh very much got it together. Um more more than that, I think. Um no, I think um yeah, they so far, I mean they still play against Jordan, um, but um both the 3-0 win against Algeria and the 2-0 win against Austria showed that um while they still have some issues uh on the defense, um I think that uh that they were a very kind of um yeah, just uh team which uh which knows how to play together, um, which knows each other, which has many different ways of uh kind of destabilizing the the opponent. Um yeah, and then of course with the star power, I think they um they they can run very, very deep into the tournament. Um yeah, so A for me.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah, just full disclosure to everybody that we're we're Paul and I recording this just before the last game. So it's all the group games have been done, uh, but we're the the last group game between Nigeria, Austria, and then Jordan, Argentina is currently underway. So we this is all being spoken about in the absence of um knowing those those results. Well, I I agree with you. I I I gave Argentina an A as well. I wonder whether we're gonna seriously disagree about any of these grades going forward. Um, I think that they are a really good side. I think they've got flair, they've got grit, they're well organized, they've got drive, and of course, they've got Leo Messi. I just haven't given them an A plus because I think they still have further to go. I think they they could they could still go up a gear if if they if they want to. Um and one of the things which uh I think we'll talk about in in the podcasts uh uh going forward in on World Cup football, etc., is um how I think their movement is second to none in um in the World Cup at the moment. And certainly not, I don't, I don't remember seeing movement, uh the likes of which they're currently undertaking in uh in in and amongst other teams. There's this kind of and it's almost a cliche, this fluidity to them. But as soon as a player moves the ball, then they they they all move somewhere else. And it was in stark contrast to the game today between England and Panama, in which um having sort of been watching Argentina play in this way, the English players were basically just passing the ball and then waiting, passing the ball and then waiting. And then occasionally there was this sort of moment of danger and then they would move forward and they would all move together. But it was just all felt so static. And it just it took me to these games that we've watched Argentina play, in which there's a consistent rotation the entire the entire time. And so it's almost it's it's that kind of total football that's uh uh of course sort of the um the the Barcelona have mastered over the years, the Johan Cruyff as well. But um it's it's really beautiful to watch. If next time you're all watching Argentina play, don't watch the ball, ignore the ball, watch everybody else moving who doesn't have the ball and see see what happens there, and it is hugely instructive. All right, um Brazil, Paul.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yes, Brazil um gets a B minus from me. Um because I think so far um uh they have not shown to um to have this this yeah extra bit which uh which Argentina has, especially on the confidence part, I would say. Um and then on on just the yeah, basically on the personnel level as well. I think that they uh compared to to other top teams, don't have such a high-level um yeah, high-level group of of players um on the pitch and and off the pitch. Um of course the the one-one against Morocco showed that um Morocco is a very good team. Uh, we we knew that already. Um, but also that I think that that there if there are teams which can beat Morocco, I would have thought that that yeah, it's basically teams like Brazil, like Argentina, more the more on the South American um side of things. Um yeah, so they they did not manage to do that, and also a 3-0 win against Haiti and a 3-0 win against Scotland. Um, I think are both results um which you have to take with a with a grain of salt. I mean, both sides um are or as as they they have shown to be uh formidable, for formidable opponents, but as a Brazil, I would expect um at least a five, uh four or a five-nil. Um yeah, some of the dynamic we've seen um yesterday with the Portugal uh Uzbekistan. Uh no, not yesterday, but a couple of days ago, the Portugal um Uzbekistan game, which was a was a five-nil. Um yeah, they didn't achieve that, so they got a B with still um quite a lot of room for improvement for uh for Brazil's standards.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

So you so you gave them a B minus, right, Paul? Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Yeah, I gave them a B minus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Okay, I'm I'm on a B. So it looks though you're just a slightly harsher marker than than me, but only by a shade. Uh we we've not been split by by too much so far. I uh yeah, I completely agree with you about Brazil. I think they were lucky against Morocco, and then of course they um beyond that they they played against a really poor Scotland, um, I think, and then of course, uh Haiti that we'll come to in a little bit. Um and uh I just don't think that Brazil are a team. I think they're a series of individuals, and even then, I don't think they're vintage individuals across the board. I think they've got a number of very good players, but um, they're definitely it's one of those things that they're not more than the sum of their parts, um, I think. And um, I just can't see them um really going very far in this in this tournament all. I my sense is that they're gonna fall at the first um the first significant hurdle. And of course that's a shame because the World Cup is always a greater event for Brazil being a force of nature within it, but you know, they haven't really been that for um for a while. Let's move on to Colombia though, um uh who just played today against uh Portugal. What was your what's your take on Colombia's performance so far?

SPEAKER_02 11:57

I mean, um the first two games uh the first game was against uh Uzbekistan, a 3-1 win, and then a 1-0 win over the Democratic Republic of Congo, or against Congo Kinshasa, as I've learned today. Now you can also call uh call that country um with the additional um capital city uh behind it. And uh both these games were definitely good performances, uh especially with the with the uh Congo, of course, um just really uh giving giving Colombia a hard time. Um so the the the 1-0 um is is very understandable there. Um very good defensive work um of the DR Congo and against Uzbekistan again I would say you don't have to get a you collect a goal against Uzbekistan. Um and you can also uh as a Colombia at least uh win a little bit of a of a bigger lead. But the Portugal game today, I think, um was the the culmination um of Colombian performance today. Absolutely amazing game. I think I've I've I've rarely seen draws um which which uh were so exciting uh for both sides. I think they definitely were the better team today, and I think I'm not alone in thinking that just created more chances. Um and they have the the bit you described uh with Brazil, which Brazil lacks, this constant moving around and um opening up spaces, doing unexpected moves, um and just just having uh having the upper hand against against Portugal. Uh but efficiency that is a part um with uh with which many teams struggle, of course. But uh yeah, quite quite bad in all of these games, I would say. So um Colombia gets a a B plus from me. It would have been a B minus before seeing the Portugal game, but uh yeah, after seeing that, um they have a very um, I would say uh they can go into the knockout stages with which which high c with high high confidence and and and a very very stable mindset.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Yeah, again, we're only separated by by a degree, by a shade here. I'm giving them an A minus. Um I think that they're just a strong, determined, steely side who know how to win. And the reason I'm giving them an A minus is because it's exactly because of that, is because they know that in um generations past, in years gone by, uh Colombia would have had a good side, but they would have failed at the final uh hurdle, they would have had flair, but they would have conceded easy goals, and they're just that's just not who Colombia are anymore. They've now added this inner grit to their play, and there's they're clearly engaged in a collective project that they all believe in and are completely committed to. So that's where my A- uh comes from. I think they've absolutely done the job in uh in their group, and that as you say, uh they go through to the to the knockout stages, I think, full of full of confidence. They can give, I think realistically, they will believe that they can give any side, um, perhaps with the exception of France, a run for their money.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

Absolutely. And I mean, um the fact that they landed on top of their group uh above Portugal um speaks volumes and just substantiates what what uh what you just said. Um yeah, then we have for the next country. Uh let me ask you, John. Um you go first now. Ecuador.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Um well um they they lost uh a sort of group stage of uh two completely different um sections, I think. Initially they lost to Ivory Coast, and then they drew with Curacao, and all of Ecuador was up in arms and disappointed and didn't think that they they were doing anything at the World Cup, massively disappointing. And then the result which came from Norway, which I know sort of stabbed you through the being German Paul, stabbed you through the heart, through the kidneys, through the liver, through the spleen, and probably amputated a foot of yours at the same time. The 2-1 win uh over Germany. So I I think it's impossible to grade them. On the one hand, if you just take the game against Germany, give them an A plus. Uh but then in the others, I put them in a in a C. So I don't know, what does that give them? An A, a B, a B, B plus? I think because of the win over Germany, I've got to give them a B plus. But um and who knows what kind of level of confidence. I mean, I guess they're going into the into the knockouts brimming with with with confidence, but um, I mean a completely Jekyll and hide team in the group stages.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah, absolutely. Um funnily, I did the same as you just did. I thought like it's almost impossible to give them uh an overall grade. So I gave them a C minus for the first two games, and uh yeah, then an A plus against uh against Germany as well. Um so I think I would land uh quite logically there um on a on a solid B uh B as well. Um yeah, I think uh and and that's what what we've seen uh so far with many teams like the 3-0 win over Czechia, then the Colombias uh draw against Portugal, then yeah, the 2-1 win over Germany. Um these these last games in the group stage, this uh lead to some kind of completion of uh of performance or at least um kind of a foreshadowing what they can bring um on the pitch.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Um yeah, because because the thing about that game against Germany is that that wasn't an accident. They absolutely took Germany to the cleaners. Um I think they just gave them the runaround, and that that it's it's less so the 2-1 win. It's how they achieved that that win. And any side which is going to play Ecuador now is going to is going to fear that that Ecuador might turn up.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, absolutely. Um they they've shown a complete superior overall uh play intelligence there, um, anticipating where the ball is going to be in in basically all of the situations. Uh then they played a very uh successful, very physical um kind of football, which uh I think which uh which we haven't seen too much in the last World Cups. It's very interesting. It very much depends on the team. But you also could see, for example, the European teams, um even England struggling very much against Ghana's very, very physical um physical strategy um to play against uh uh yeah, very, very tactical, uh, very tactical English team. And then you had Germany uh not being prepared for this uh level of physicality at all. Um they lost so many um so many small battles um um over the ball um over the whole game basically, both just as a team as an on individual level as well. There was no German player which uh had like I don't know, which had found a personal formula on uh how to beat Ecuador. And if you achieve that, if you just um bring your opponent into a situation where every everything which which he tries just isn't working. Um I think that's the best you can do to frustrate your opponent uh maximally and yeah, then to uh to get a 2-1 win over um over Germany.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Let's come to Paraguay next. Uh Paraguay lost 4-1 to the USA in the opening game, and they didn't look great there. And then they beat Tokyo 1-0 and then drew with with Australia. They would have taken, I think they would have taken that at the start of the tournament, right? It's the first time that they'd qualified for a World Cup since 2010 in South Africa when they reached um the quarterfinal. So um yeah, how would you grade Paraguay uh so far?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

I honestly would give them a I mean I'm between a C and a B. So maybe I could I'll give them a B minus overall. For their standards, uh, of course, it's probably a B plus or an A minus to have achieved what they have achieved so far. Um I mean, the the the first game was uh a fair game to lose against uh in the opening match against the US host country, um, just very, very hungry. Uh of course, a lot of pressure on them to perform as well. Um, but uh yeah, if you're going up against against the Paraguay, that's of course not too frightening. So a fair loss there. Um, then a 1-0 win against Turkey, which I think must be credited to just the unbelievable Turkish inefficiency. I mean, famously, uh yeah, even by uh by basically underwhelming uh every estimations or expectations, you can also break records. So um Turkey broke the record for most shots uh during a World Cup without scoring a single goal.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

62 shots, and then their next two shots they scored. Yeah, exactly. I mean shots 63 and 64, they scored. Six the previous 62 shots, nothing.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

It's it's completely ironic. Um, but uh that's football. Um, and then yeah, uh a draw against Australia is um is solid, I think. Um and um they definitely deserved uh especially if you look in uh at the group, they deserve to go go through. And now I have the probably not not pleasant, I would say, um, but definitely the the doable challenge of uh of beating Germany if uh if they give a similar performance to to I mean really if they give a similar performance to the last game, um then I can see a Paraguay with one or two lucky shots. Um Yeah, getting away with it. If not, if we see a Germany more like in the second half against um against the Ivory Coast, then of course not. But let's see. It's gonna definitely be a very interesting game because neither teams probably know how they are going to perform. Both not too confident. I mean, yeah, if if you basically draw against Australia and get a 1-0 win over Turkey, you're probably not too happy with uh with everything as it stands. Um, but still, of course, the the fact that um yeah, that you've qualified for this tournament for the first time in 16 years, um, and then you made the knockout stages is probably for the Paraguayans, um, I guess a win enough.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

Yeah, I think it really is. And um clearly uh Paraguay would have learned uh from Ecuador what kind of game they need to play to really scare Germany. And it'll be interesting to see whether Germany have any kind of mental sort of scars from from what to play against Ecuador. I I would give Paraguay an A- for this because if you look at the teams on paper, USA, host nation, Turkey for a lot of people, including us, Dark Horses, Australia, always a solid side, um, never easy to beat. You know, it had the whiff of a group of death this, and um many people uh would have would be would have been highly surprised by Paraguay making it through at all. So I think for for them to to make it through on four points um with with solid performances beyond the first beyond the first match, I think uh that is that is a sort of an A-minus performance for me in in given the sort of the scope and the ambitions of the of the side. Um let's move on to don't know where to begin with this one, Uruguay, what to say. Uh on the World Cup football, etc. pool, we're gonna do another piece on Bielsa and how it all went wrong in the next few days. But this was a complete implosion to rival. You know, remember when France imploded at the 2010 World Cup in South Africa with a with a I mean, just a historic meltdown, which featured a player mutiny, uh half-time locker room fight, refusal to train, and of course they did they did terribly. It's it's that kind of level of abject performance and and opprium. And uh, I mean I can't think of the definitely the the the worst performances from any Latin American side, arguably from any side in the tournament, and I just give them uh an E. I don't see where else you can go with that. Everything went wrong for them.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Yeah, uh absolutely. And I mean to draw against both Saudi Arabia and newcomer Cape Verde is just um that's that's a result of your own making, basically. Um, so for for for this performance, I would definitely give them an E. Um, no, no discussion about that. But then the the match against Spain was really something. I mean, a stark difference in performance, uh, and they really had their moments. And it was, I think, um, also quite lucky for Spain that they were that they managed to to score the 1-0 and that Uruguay just did not uh did not manage to score uh because it wasn't uh that uh it wasn't the case that Uruguay did not have any chances. So that game actually showed that uh what what what potential um is is in this uh yeah in this matching of uh of players, but just I think very badly coached. I mean there were also some um controversies uh yeah months before the tournament uh even began. Um so I think that the that the the the mood and the atmosphere was just very bad, plus uh yeah, visibly bad coaching. So for that for that performance, I would I would actually give them give them a B because it's Spain, right? Um and and Spain was also in a really good form that day. So that that's my take on Uruguay.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I I see where you're coming from, but I just think that whole match was so bizarre as well. You've got their goalkeeper, Fernando Musleta, that had been called, um recalled to the side for no apparent reason to the Uruguayan side. Um, and then uh he was at fault for three of the goals through the group stages that uh the Uruguay conceded. And in this match against Spain, he sort of let a ball slip, which uh wasn't really a particularly serious attempt on goal, and then he was substituted at half time and apparently and um when asked, Bielza said that he'd he was substituted because the goalkeeper had asked to be substituted, and then you've got um sort of a substitution, what one of Uruguay's best players for um Valverde was also substituted in the second half, and the the sort of the rationale there was because he wanted because Bielsa wanted Uruguay to be more physical, but uh Valverde's one of those players, one of the few players who's who can actually turn a game for you. So I think just it all felt like a real mess, even even with the um the the the response, I suppose, the football that was played being being better than we had seen previously.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah, I mean, uh yeah, to to to my point about bad coaching, um, then it was uh still an understatement, I think. Um, I mean, after after the quote you uh you brought into here um saying that yeah, he asked for being substituted. I mean, come on, Jesus Christ, that's not how you lead a team as a coach. Um so yeah, I I agree with you that uh Uruguay um Uruguay's performance was just um extremely bad. And um but I still expect them to to get their get their act together and um so that we can see them at the next World Cup uh hopefully again.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Well you can't get any worse. They've got an they've got yeah, root and branch reform and to rethink things again. But uh yeah, we'll see we'll see where they go from here. But the recriminations will uh continue long into the next few uh days, weeks, and potentially even months. Let's come to Curaçao, let's uplift ourselves with Curacao. Started with a heavy defeat to Germany, 7-1. Of course, it's worth reminding that it's uh Crusau the smallest nation ever to qualify for World Cup. Then they drew with Ecuador, nil-nil, and lost to Ivory Coast, but they weren't outclassed, and uh they they emerged with a folk hero in the shape of their goalkeeper, Eloy Rube.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, I mean, um, we spoke a lot about Cape Verde, of course, a very, very similar case. Both teams uh became world famous due to their goalkeepers' performances, and um yeah, just I mean, the first game, um I think it was uh was it was kind of a welcome to the world cup. That's how it uh how it works here, um, or that that's what can happen to you. Um, and of course, they they never played against um against the European side like that. Um so kind of expected in my opinion. Then very unexpectedly they managed to to get yeah, the uh the draw against Ecuador. Um very good performance, especially uh of Eloy Ruhm. And um, yeah, then to lose against uh Ivory Coast to nil, which beat Germany 2-1, um uh is is a very, very fair game. I think a very, very good start um into Kuraçao's World Cup history. Um a good one for good one for the history books, and uh yeah, even to to get your first goal in your first World Cup against Germany, I think is uh is quite astonishing. So um I give Kuraçao all things um considered, I give him a B.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, I've got uh Curaçao on a B plus. Again, just a shade uh um splitting us there, Paul, for all the reasons which you which you outlined. I think it was just a really positive story. And despite the fact that they emerge with with a point, um uh yeah, I think Curacao will be in a really good place after the their performance in this in this World Cup. Now, Haiti, hugely uh difficult group, lost to Scotland 1-0, then Brazil 3-0, then through everything at Morocco. Where do you place them?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

I will place them as an A- because if you look at um at everything surrounding this um this World Cup appearance, it is quite astonishing that they that they even managed to qualify. I mean, with basically a civil war at home, not being able to to visit the country, to play in the country. Um many of the Haitian players never never were in Haiti. Still they decided to um to get into the to the Haitian jerseys and represent that country in the in the situation it is in right now. Um and also, I mean, if you if you look at their performance, especially, I mean, we have seen a couple of um a couple of qualification games of Haiti. It was just a complete stark difference, almost like uh like day and night in some instances. Um the difference in performance during the qualification run and their uh three games in the World Cup, they really got um got their act together. Yeah, they stepped it off to the Niagara. Yeah, completely. Um got um they they had this um this this this constant nervousness in in their play in their playstyle before um because of course uh there was just so much at stake. And um and against Scotland to lose against uh to lose against Scotland um by one goal is uh is not not a shame at all. Then to manage uh a 0-3 loss against Brazil is also quite astonishing, I must say, um, as Haiti. Uh of course a dream came true to play against Brazil um in a World Cup because famously um one of the biggest Haitian diasporas is in Brazil, um, because Haitians uh can very easily get a visa uh in in Brazil, uh which they basically can't in any other country um in the world. Um so and the Haitians as well are just in love with the Brazilian team, of course, with uh poster boys like Neymar and the likes. And then hey, I would say Haiti shocked the world. Um the first half against Morocco. Um I wouldn't say that Morocco played really, really bad, which I would probably, for example, say in the case of the Germany uh Ecuador game, uh, but Haiti was just on par with them, and uh they managed to to lead two times. Um and then in the second half, uh I wouldn't say everything broke down, but Morocco just um yeah, were slightly uh slightly better, uh the slightly better team there. Um yeah, but just the the passion and enthusiasm uh you could see in in these um in these Haitian players on the pitch um was was just just amazing. Um and again they scored their first two World Cup goals against Morocco, um one of the top teams in the world. Um of course they are now out, but huge for the country, extremely huge, uh huge event. And I think that uh this is probably the kick uh the kickstarter to a prolonged, hopefully prolonged, um improved or even still improving performance of the Haitian national team on a regional and a global stage.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Um, just a word on the on Haitians in Brazil as well. That actually a significant surge in that was because of the 2014 Brazil World Cup. Um Haitians were offered, significant numbers of Haitians were offered work visas to assist in construction prior to that World Cup. And then actually what then happened was a lot of Haitians stayed there, and then COVID happened a few years later, and that's one of the reasons why then sort of Haitian migration ended up being such a big thing across Latin American countries and then on up to the USA because a lot of um a lot of them were already on the continent working by the time that that COVID hit. But um, in a footballing sense, you you're definitely right. They didn't make up the numbers, an incredible story. They they clearly loved every minute of their run. They they weren't in awe by anybody, they just went out and just uh they made the most of it. Uh, and that was a uh I think a real joy to see. Um maybe I'm biased, but I'm giving them an A minus. Uh what did you did you tell us what grade you gave them, Paul?

SPEAKER_02 34:38

No, I I gave them an A minus as well.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Oh great. So yeah, so I mean basically in almost entirely in in complete agreement. Um Paul, that was a really interesting little run through Latin American science.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Maybe uh once we we forgot one, John.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Did we?

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, Panama, Panama.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Very important to talk about it very, very bad for me. Uh and uh given the fact that I've just watched them play today as well. Yes, lost all three games, no goals, no goals scored, four against. They're better than that, even in a very, very difficult group. Uh what was your what's your uh summary of Panama?

SPEAKER_02 35:13

I mean again, first two games, um, I would give them probably a C minus or something like this, um, or even an a D plus. Because what what you said, they definitely can perform better. And in the last game, uh they've shown that um if they go up against uh arguably the best team in the group, they can actually create very good chances, um, can get goals on tar uh shots on target, um, didn't manage to score, but still, um, I think that uh that a 2-0 loss against England um in the last game uh brings uh brings my ranking up to uh to a C minus maybe.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Great. So that is that is all of them now. I think I haven't missed anybody else, have I? And that is all Latin America and and Caribbean sides. Um if you follow listeners, if you follow Latin America correspondent, would like to follow world football and everything that lies around it. Uh the World Cup football, etc., is uh uh a World Cup at the moment, but it's uh it will expand into world football uh elsewhere, and the etc. bit is the important bit there. So of course the football is um is a is a focal part of what we talk about there, but it's also the history, culture, identity, society, and so on. So it's everything that sits around it, then head across to World Cup football, etc. And that's download uh that's you can find that across uh download platforms. And of course, if you already follow World Cup football, etc., and are interested in Latin America, in politics, news, and analysis, then head across and subscribe to Latin America correspondent. But uh, as always, Paul, thank you so much and talk soon.

SPEAKER_02 36:52

Very much appreciated, John.