LIVE IN MEXICO CITY: Football Is Our Language - Sport & Social Programmes

Recorded live at the Lamb Restaurant in Mexico City, in association with the British Embassy in Mexico, in celebration of the England vs. Mexico World Cup match, part three of the podcast sees a focus on the possibilities of using football as a conduit for social inclusion, particularly focusing on programmes developed in association with the British Embassy in Mexico. 

Featuring special guest Katie Hannam, Head of Foreign Policy & Lead of World Cup Actions in Mexico, with added contributions from Declan Link. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Hi everyone, um, and welcome back to Welcome Football, etc. We are back at the LAM restaurant in Mexico City, continuing our live recording in and around the match between England and Mexico, the Azteca Stadium in association with the British Embassy in Mexico City. And for this third part of the uh recording, we're going to be talking about social programmes and opportunities afforded by football both in Mexico and also further afield. And uh, joining us for this section are Katie Hannon, head of foreign policy and lead for World Cup actions and the at the British Embassy, and Deku Link, who really needs no introduction or regular uh listeners, co-presenter, of course, at World Cup Football, etc., and who has a long history of working with football uh as well. Uh Katie, we we've covered before on on this uh on the podcast a number of times about the the programme which sort of focuses around football is our language and everything that sort of offshoots from that. And maybe we can get into the detail of that in a in a moment, but I guess my my opening, my initial question to you is was football always an obvious point of entry to be able to sort of develop this this uh this multiverse of potential social actions?

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, I think definitely, John. So I think our role as diplomats, particularly in a world at the minute where we've got quite quite a polarized world at the minute, is how how can we strengthen bilateral relations between you know the UK and Mexico? And uh football is such an incredible link between our two countries. As Vanya has spoken about, it's it's the history with the Cornish miners. Um but more than that, we've got so many stories between us. Um and one of the stories that I had absolutely no idea about until I came to Mexico, um, and that's the reason also that we want to talk about it, and we want to talk about it more, is that uh in 1971 the second ever Women's World Cup was hosted at Stadium Azteca, and it was to over a hundred thousand uh spectators audience, which I think on record is one of the highest ever women's um sporting events of all time attended, um, and that's just one of the brilliant links that we have between the UK and Mexico in football, um, and we have so many others, but that is the one that I am probably most excited about, and also the one that I've been most proud to work on for my last four years about working in in Mexico as a diplomat here.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Can we just also just uh just as a slight sideline before we get into the program specifically as well, but just the the um again, this sort of sense of a level playing field. And again, we've we've spoken about before with with you, but also covered about this just the this craziness of the sublimation of women's football across different countries and across history for for a period of time, and how it's it's it's not just so important to to bring that out and to to sort of highlight that historically, but also how that clearly has a social, a deeply social and political impact for women today. One of the things which we've spoken about multiple times before also is how it's really interesting how politically women's football is in a very different place to men's football as well. So I I think I'm definitely very appreciative of the embassy having this sort of almost arrowhead view of of course football is for everybody, but we also need to be talking about women's football and the history of women's football crucially.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

100%. I mean, you know, we're we're also a year out to the Women's World Cup in Brazil, right? Which is also going to be an incredible, incredible moment, not just for this region but also for the world. Um, Mexico have elected their their first female president, President Scheinbaum. Um we have uh a female foreign secretary as well, um, and we've also done incredible work in the in the UK government with the Women in Sports Task Force. And that's not just about sort of celebrating women's football and celebrating uh the incredible sort of achievements that we've done, but also it's about okay, we've got this moment, but what next? How do we make it what we're celebrating, particularly with you know the Lioness's win last summer in the Euros? How do we not just uh celebrate our successes, but how do we use that moment to create more opportunities and how do we create that discussion and how do we keep going forward on not just sort of sport, not just football, but gender equality as well. I think that's what's really important.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, football in that sense, you know, of course it unites us, but it's a tool for all of this stuff. Maybe we can just come into the the tangibles as well. So this so football is our language. Just give us some real knots and bolts around where the embassy's at, what it's involved with.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

So, oh, probably about a year ago, we had a brilliant, brilliant uh I think it was a breakfast or a lunch with Marianne Rymers, who, if you don't know her, look her up because she is one of the coolest women I have ever met. One, I want her to be my best friend for life, but two, what she has done for gender equality, for women's football, for sport is just absolutely incredible. Um, and we were having lunch with the with the ambassador and Vadia, Marian, and myself, and she went, Have you seen the documentary uh Copper 7, Copper 71? And we were like, no, what's that? Um, and it's about the brilliant, brilliant story of how in 1971 England came over to Mexico to play in Stadium Azteca to over a hundred thousand people, right? And this was 1971, right? Um, so incredible, incredible time, incredible bravery that these women also came to Mexico. The footage is absolutely brilliant. They're coming over on a flight, everybody's smoking away before they come over to Mexico, it's fantastic. And they play. Um, now we do lose, uh, but we'll move on quickly past that bit. But they are treated like absolute heroes across Mexico. Fast forward, they go back home to the to the UK, to England, and they're not received with the same welcome. And actually, the stigma that is then created and surrounded by women playing football at the time, these fantastic players, these fantastic women don't speak about it for what 54 years? Um, and it was an absolute travesty. And this brilliant, brilliant director, Rachel Ramsey, um, brought this story back to life. Um, it was actually um Ian Young's from the from the BBC who created the story, The The Lost Lionesses, and from that, Rachel then really created this documentary. So if you haven't seen it, go and watch it. You will both be inspired and also equally frustrated at the same time. But incredible, incredible documentary, incredible sort of footage as well. So we heard about this story and we were like, right, how do we bring this back to life? Um, so we brought back two of the players, um, Chris Lockwood and Trudy McCaffrey, who big shout out, Chris and Trudy, absolutely incredible, and we reunited them with the Mexican players after 54 years, which, even as I'm talking about it now, like I'm thrown back to that time where it was about two months ago, three months ago in February earlier this year. Um, it was so emotional, John. It was so, so emotional. Look, I we were there with you, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:14

But no, but it was but it was it was it was it was after a couple of generations, people coming, they'd not seen each other before, and they'd basically it's it it it it'd been they'd been told that it was an experience that they'd had, which was the most incredible experience of their lives, that didn't had no social value, that it contravened social norms. And you're absolutely right, sort of when I found out about it even amongst themselves for 50 years because of the shame.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Because of the shame, because of the stigma, because you know, something about you know, women don't have the emotional capability to play football or something like that. Um, and so it was an incredible, incredible moment. But we also worked, we didn't want to just make this a moment where we reunited them, we also wanted to drive that legacy forward. So, as I said, the UK government is doing a lot for sort of improving women, uh women in sport, gender equality in sport, but also how could we work with um Mexican organisations, particularly NGOs? Um, so we really worked with two NGOs, Girls United, um, who work between the UK and Mexico. They support young generations of female players, both on and off a pitch with career skills, and Marion's charity as well, Somos Versus, which uh combats digital violence uh in sport as well, particularly in sort of journalism, because it's not just about the past, it's not just about the present with the lioness's sort of successes, but also the success of the the uh women's Mexican League as well, which obviously started in in 2017, but also about the future, right? Because I am such a firm believer in you cannot be what you cannot see, right? So, how can we use our platforms the embassy, the Copper 71 legacy, to really create a momentum, but also drive that forward, you know? Let's use our platform, let's use our exposure to really inspire the next generation of girls going, I can do that, I can be, and whether that's a footballer, whether that's a journalist, whether that's a diplomat, anything you want to be, you definitely can.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Yeah, and and we also live in a kind of universe now where there's an increasing cynicism around foreign policy and around um how does it best serve the nation. And it seems to me that what you guys are doing at the British Embassy, which I really value and appreciate, and that's not just me saying we're sitting opposite each other. No, but it is it is because it because it's values-based, right? It make it's not about the UK, it's not about Britain, it's not about I mean, of course it is about Mexico, but it is also about what kind of societies we want to generate. And that's not nation-specific, right? And that's why I think what the stuff that you're doing, and obviously why we're talking about it tonight, and why this partnership exists, is because it actually, you know, it matters a damn.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

It matters, it definitely matters, and you know, we're also working with incredible charities such as Mass Sueños, who is a local charity here in Mexico City, and as as you know, and as probably the listeners know too, well, you know, around football, there is also an increase in domestic violence, and this charity, Mass Sueños, is combating that through football and it's through teaching, it's through engagement. Um, we just had a uh incredible organization called Street Charles United. We did a big tournament here, and the Mexican girls' team won, right? Incredible, incredible support, but also that shines a spotlight, and they're trying through their own means and mechanisms, through football, to say, yes, let's enjoy the game, but also were you aware of some of the consequences, such as domestic violence, and how can we come together to really sort of combat that and and reduce it as well?

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Yeah, and um definitely capacity for building utopias, I think, around and also tangible, um, you know, not just leaving them up in the air, but also just going, how do we actually sort of move forward with with these declining? Can I just bring you in on this? Obviously, you've you've worked in in football, football development, football coaching for generations, and uh the sport hasn't is not just the sport, it could it always has had sort of ancillary um benefits, consequences, social um uh social aspects to people, as as often happens with sport, but I think feel like the access to football allows it to be a step ahead of so many other sports. Can you just tell us a little bit about the work that you've done and how that sort of um speaks to what Katie's been speaking of in terms of social opportunities and social development?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

I might well forget that question, John. It's probably longer than some answers, right? Because no, immediately when Katie, who's sitting behind beside me here, said she doesn't cry very much. I am trying to keep my emotions in in intact tonight because I'm actually achieving one of my life's dreams, is sitting opposite John, JB, and Paul, PST. More PST than JB, I think. And they are both incredibly handsome young men. I cannot believe it. We're gonna we're definitely gonna edit that out.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

No listeners can verify, can't verify.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

They both, honestly, I I've this is the first time I've ever met both of them. I feel like they're my best buddies and I grew up with them. However, I'm actually meeting them in person. Stop interrupting.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

We interrupt each other for the the entire time, obviously, on online. But the thing is that um, yeah, this obviously one of my biggest challenges with the podcast is trying to keep Declan on the subject. Oh, right and at the at a point of entry now, talking about social programs.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

I've forgotten the question as well. Well, there we go.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Declan. No, John, you know what it is. I'm glad I have a nice sort of chin.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

I've listened to you enough over the years. If you if if you lose track on a question or you don't know the answer to the question, you actually end up end up answering a completely different question, and it goes over the the listeners and the viewers' heads anyway. True or incorrect or not.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Let's come back to the to the to the this part of the podcast, which is about social programs and the opportunities of football, which you have worked in.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Yes, yes, but I we'll get my serious head on now, and um to be honest with you, I didn't exactly know where you were going to take me with this piece tonight, but I am a massive believer. Sports has always been a big part of my life, particularly football. Um, you know, it's open doors, it's given me so many incredible experiences from when I was playing in the Cubs, the first Sunbury, all the way up to when I am now a you know a so-called expert on uh world world world uh football, etc., or whatever the podcast called. An expert, but you can't remember his name. But um no, the reason I think sports is such a wonderful thing for young people to dive into, and it can be any sport, it doesn't have to be football, is that um ultimately they are in this day and age being taken away from all of the bad things in life that can make them grow up too quickly, you know, social media, cell phone technology, all of those sorts of stuff. If those kids are left idle, their life their lives can be completely transformed, mostly in a negative way. Secondly, when they're playing um sports, and it doesn't have to be the highest level or the lowest level, but I'm a firm believer that when you are playing sports, you are learning subconsciously skills, developing skills to deal with what life throws at you when you become an adult or when you become a college student who's away from the family, or you do whatever. Um, and subconsciously at the time when you're playing those sports, you don't realize you know you're dealing with relationships, you're dealing with coaches who might like you, might not like you, you're dealing with winning, losing. In this day and age, you're dealing with parental pressure. And obviously, where I live in the United States, um, you know, someone uh Mario was asked the question early on: why hasn't Mexican soccer football um developed so much since 1986? Same can be said about football in America. In 19 uh, in 2002 in Japan and Korea, the USA beat Mexico in the round of 16, went on to lose in a very close questionable decision game against Germany. Everyone was saying that was 2002, um, that by 2026, 2030, 2034, the USA would be a fantastic global competitor on the world of football. The same thing that Mario was saying, there is so much money involved in in American sports, they're never really doing it for the good of the of the of the children, the betterment of the people involved in the sports. It's all about money, money, money. Which is why, you know, where I where I live, I I coached my three boys for many, many years. The clubs I coached at absolutely detested me because I would always push back and say, why are we going to Jacksonville two hours away when the kids are under eight to play in a tournament where we're incurring the costs of hotels, we're incurring the costs of food, we're incre incurring the costs of travel. And we can play a game in Orlando where I live, and everyone goes home happy. But it's to line up the pockets of certain people in that capitalistic entrepreneurial society there is in the States. Um I was on the plane back from New York the other day and sitting next to an England fan who was going to Orlando on holiday, and he was telling me about his seven-year-old son, who he would the gentleman was from Wigan in Lancashire, and his seven-year-old son was in the academy at seven years old. It's just ridiculous. I mean, I just can't believe how these teams are getting these these players so young and selling them on a dream that the for 99% of people is not a real dream. In the United States, it's mythical college scholarships. Um, in in the United States and most countries, it's to go and play professional, but it's justifying the cost and expense in the states in particular, which I am knowledgeable about, to justify hopefully one or two players coming through and someone making money on them.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

I think you've you've both sort of alluded to a sort of a redefining notion of winning. What does winning mean? And just in the last 24 hours, we've seen Cape Verde lose to Argentina, but what they didn't do was lose to Argentina. It was a compl it was everything but a loss. It was about generating an identity, a sense of nation. Um, and I think what you what you what you're both sort of speaking about a little bit is that at the heart of sport is of course, you know, people want to win, but ultimately it's about who are you, who do you want to be, um, sort of trying to identify um ways in which sport can assist you, exactly as you sort of say, Declan, in life sort of moving forward. And I think that's so, you know, it if we think about tangibles and whether with it, of course, social exclusion or female uh women's participation in these sports, ultimately it is about sort of generating a space in which, again, I've said it now a couple of times, and it sort of feels even more cliche now, but this sort of sense of a level playing field in which we're all actually going towards the same thing, which is about what kind of societies do we want to do we want to generate. And there are some non-negotiables in that, which is about access, which is about inclusion, uh, which is about gender equality. You know, all of these different things are highly present, I think, within within this sort of notion of what we let's you know, it always trivializes it to say social programs because it's it's actually much bigger than that, it's a movement.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

I think you agree, you know, football can, as Eckland said, it can be one of the most powerful platforms for empowering women and girls. You know, it teaches teamwork, it teaches confidence, it teaches resilience, it teaches leadership. Um, it also teaches about yeah, losing and how to deal with losing um as well. And I think that's uh that's one of the things that we've tried to do with our campaign. And uh, Vania, correct me, but I think our campaign football is our language reached 1.8 million people across our audiences, right? And it's one of our biggest that we've ever done in the embassy. Um, and I think you know, I think we're kind of, you know, before it was the stigma and the and everything around it, you know, play like a girl. But actually, I I want to play like a girl because playing like a girl means I've got resilience, and playing like a girl means I know exactly who my who my sisters and who my team are. And playing like a girl, you know, it's it's no surprise, uh sort of John, that you've got the head of uh public diplomacy and the head of the World Cup team here is both incredible women who are going out and achieving those things. So I think, yeah, I'd like to play like a girl, please. Because I think better.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Which which in a way, you know, and I don't take this wrong way, but it it shouldn't be an exception. No, it should just be the way things are 100%, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

And I think you can look at that with the with the viewers, and you can look at them the numbers and sort of what the the lionesses sort of achieved last year, but you know, we still have a way to go, and there still are obstacles because you know, by the age of 14, girls drop out of sport at twice the rate of boys, right? And there is that, and you know, I will also sort of attest to that as a as a young teenage girl. I think I was also not that into sport at the time, but that's definitely sort of grown on me. But now it's it's one of the most incredible sort of assets for for learning leadership, for learning resilience, for learning sort of teamwork. And you know, I think it's something like 80% of Fortune 500 female CEOs played sport when they were young. You know, what did they learn? What were they taught? And then what has that carried them through into later life to become sort of Fortune 500 female CEOs? An incredible amount.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

I can see um Paul Schmidt-Troschke, handsome Paul Schmidt-Troschka. So handsome is uh he looks he looks either that night before he looked like listeners. There's a gallery set opposite me now that all have bent heads looking up at Paul Schmidt-Troschka. But anyway, he's moving around the room now to see whether there's any any any comments uh uh ahead of this. But um, yeah, no, I I think these these perspectives are are all um you know, of course, hugely uh important. Can I can you interrupt?

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Can I interrupt? Did you ask permission to I think that's the first time I've ever actually asked permission? No, I didn't know whether or not you were going to be talking about grassroots football in England as well, because obviously I've lived away for a long, long time. But I actually have quite an inspiring story I'd like to share. I'll be as concise and short as possible. But my my brother-in-law, Simon Hodge, came to um Orlando back in 1994 when he was 10 years old to, and it just happened to coincide, wrapping it around why we're all here with the World Cup, with the 1994 World Cup that was held in the United States. He wasn't a particularly good football player when he was a kid. He sort of loved it, he sort of loved Arsenal. I got him a shirt one time signed by Pele, which and I had it signed saying, to Simon, all the best, Pele, and I gave it to him and he said, Who's this peak guy? But anyway, the story goes like this He was so inspired by going to the old Citrus Bowl as a 10 year old that he ended up determined. In determining in that his career was going to be in football coaching. Wasn't the best player, didn't have a career in non-league, professional, semi-professional, etc. etc. But he ended up, and I'm going to have to look at my notes now. He he is since because that experience, and I'm trying to look say that the experiences you have in life as a kid can benefit you down the road. You just never know when it's going to happen. But he's had now over 25 years of experience working in football, mostly coaching, sport education, and community development. He is a UEFA A-licensed coach with extensive experience developing players, coaches, and people across grassroots academy and community football, particularly in Kent where he lives, but it's the same in most of the counties around the country. His career has included coaching and leadership roles within professional environments with football professional football clubs, where he was an academy coach at Charlton Athletic for about seven years, and he worked at Gillingham as Academy Coach as well. He's a passionate advocate for using football as a vehicle to improve lives, build confidence, develop character, and create opportunities for young people with a strong belief that success is measured not only by producing better players, but by producing better people. And it all came from that experience he had watching three or four games in Orlando in 1994 as a 10-year-old kid. He's now director of an organization called Sports Connect, which is dedicated to inspiring, motivating, educating people through sport, tied into the local counties, particularly Kent. And he just recently started work with the FA Football Association in England as what they call a casual coach developer with the Football Association working alongside the Kent FA, supporting education and development of coaches so that his story can be told to other people.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Thanks. Thanks, Doctor. Paul is on the roving mic, and I think he has a so some contributions from Dr. Chris Wood at the corner.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Well, all I can say is up the Jills. It's just great to hear them mentioned here, you know, as someone who uh grew up in Sittingbourne and used to uh used to uh go with my grandfather.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Gordon's son used to play for them.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Wow, I had no idea. Well, that's fantastic. Um yeah, I used to go to the uh terrace at the uh at this at the the priestfield. I mean it was you know it's amazing, you know, these sort of um I mean Judgham have not been a very successful club for a very long time, but still, you know, all these connections that get made across all these different levels of football across, you know, it's not about the just the top levels, it's also about the you know, it's the coaching, it's the the underlying levels that that come through the I don't know how many prof uh FA levels there are in the UK, 13 levels or 17 levels. It's it's it's a massive, massive pyramidal structure. I mean, you know, it it really reaches into society at all levels, right down to the you know the the pubs and and and the works teams and and it's it's incredible when you actually try and get your head about it. The amount of people that are involved in in these particularly football being the probably the most successful sport that's ever been in uh at the world level.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

That's what that's one of my frustrations with with football in America, and basically what Mario has also said in some respects about what football's like here in Mexico, is that in every country, but particularly in the UK, if you love playing a sport and you played it all your life and you get you know into your teens, if you get into your twenties, if you get into your thirties, there is an actual pyramid that exists in all of these different countries where you can find your level to play. And it sounds like I know it's not like that in the States, they're sort of trying to do it, and it sounds like in many respects there's a lot of politics, a lot of money involved here in Mexico, which is meaning that the system shouldn't be as mature as it is, and it's not very mature.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Can I just ask uh if there's 13 coaching levels in the UK, uh, what level is Thomas Tuchel on? That would be a question. That'd be a good that'd be a great question for uh Gordon because he loves those Thomas. Right I think it's could Gordon's correcting me on something I've said on some new show, I have something I've said wrong.

SPEAKER_05 26:05

So it's not coaching levels, it's levels in the pyramid.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

In the pyramid, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 26:09

Like so leagues going down 13 or maybe 17, Chris. National, national league. I uh you can play uh a test that I have played till I my last um 11 aside game was when I was 70. So you can play, you know, a long time. I I will come back to one thing that I uh echoing something that that Katie said that uh in business as a businessman I I would always when I interviewed people pick a sp A a sports person and B a team sports person because a team sports person had to cope with lots of different um issues, you know, sort of teammates, how to get on with them, adversity, yes, and you know, mm bunkers managers. We've both Declan and I have probably played for them, but uh a bit much more than a sort of tennis player or a swimmer or a squash player, golfer, who who I I'm not I'm not decrying all that, but I would always go for a team player or team sportsman. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Thanks, thanks, Gordon. Thank you, Katie, so much, thank you, Jacqueline, thank you, Chris, for bringing up the uh the left field gills reference on tonight's bingo card, which I don't think anybody anybody has.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

No, and uh yeah, thank you, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Yes, thank you. Thank you, Paul, for your profile. And we'll be back soon. Thank you, everyone.