LIVE IN MEXICO CITY: Opportunities & Challenges for Mexico at the 2026 World Cup

Recorded live at the Lamb Restaurant in Mexico City, in association with the British Embassy in Mexico, in celebration of the England vs. Mexico World Cup match, part four of the podcast sees a focus on the challenges and opportunities afforded by this World Cup for Mexico. 

Featuring special guest Katie Hannam, Head of Foreign Policy & Lead of World Cup Actions in Mexico, alongside Nick Dale, journalist for El Pais in Mexico, as well as Mario Paul Pfeiffer, sociologist and content developer for Mexican television.

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Hi everyone, and welcome back to World Cup Football, etc. We're back at the by now listeners know we are at the Lamb restaurant in Mexico City at uh this uh continuing this live recording in and around of course the massive celebratory match as well as it being a sporting occasion between England and um Mexico at the the iconic Az Stadium uh the iconic Azteca Stadium in association in association with the British Embassy, of course. And uh for this part we're gonna be talking about the um the I guess the sort of opportunities and challenges that have come across the social political landscape in uh in Mexico. Um I feel like Mexico is living a particular moment now, and um sort of discuss this uh and and how it sort of multiplies and accelerates through a World Cup context, which in many ways sort of expands all of the best and all of the worst of various difficult of various uh contexts that we that we see are um Katie Hannon, who we spoke to in the in the previous uh recording, uh who is head of foreign policy and also lead in the uh in uh World Cup policy at the British Embassy in uh in Mexico City. We also uh uh have Nick Dale, who is a a reporter at uh El Pace, and we have Mario Paul Pfeiffer, uh, who's also uh uh participated previously, who is a sociologist and uh uh a content developer at Mexican uh television. Nick, you've been in and around the Mexican context for a long time. Maybe you can just sort of give us a summary of where things are at and what you feel the the particular kind of opportunities and challenges are or have been for Mexico in and around this World Cup.

SPEAKER_08 2:15

Yeah, thanks. Um I think to to start off with it's important to highlight that Mexico is really a secondary host in this World Cup. So with that little caveat, I mean, uh the 104 games of the expanded 48 Team World Cup, only 13 are played in Mexico. So it really is a tiny, tiny thing, and I think it's important to highlight because the challenges and opportunities are smaller than they would have been if they had been a sole host. That being said, it doesn't mean that there haven't been any challenges, and the main one to start off with has been in infrastructure. Um it's been uh nine years since Mexico has known that they um were gonna host this or co-host this World Cup. Uh yet, you know, day days before uh the World Cup started, uh the two Mexico City airports were still uh uh having work done on them. Uh the Azteca Stadium was barely refurbished in time, uh, and actually the original refurbishing plan was really stripped down to the bare minimum. So none of the you know stated amazing regeneration that was gonna happen around the ground happened, and the stadium itself really remains you know an old school uh ground. You know, for better or worse, the the essence of that football temple is still there, but it's also quite tatty if we're being honest. Um whereas in Guadajara and Monterey, the other two uh host cities, the stadiums are state-of-the-art stadiums built relatively recently uh by the two biggest clubs from each city, and the the experience in those stadiums has been different, not better or worse, but very different to what it's been in the in the Azteca. Uh in the end, however, you know that Mexico has held its own. There really haven't been any significant issues in in the organization part of it. Uh, Mexico has been a great host, there hasn't been, you know, delays apart from the other day because of a thunderstorm. Uh, but that's really uh is out of their hands anyway. Uh, and and I think Mexico is is seen and will be remembered as it's as it has been in the previous World Cups it's hosted as a as a great place to come because of the energy and warmth of of the Mexican uh fans. And this was actually a little bit in doubt in the days leading up to the tournament because there were various open fronts from civil society and the government. Uh, the biggest uh school teacher union in the country, the CNTE, uh, did a two-week protest in the heart of Mexico City. They were camping in the streets in the uh in and around the main square of the city. They they closed some of the biggest avenues, uh, creating like quite a bit of tension uh at that time. Uh and they were looking for better conditions, especially in their in their pensions. There were also the Madres Buscadoras, uh, which has translated to searching mothers. They're known as the the mothers of many of the 130,000 people who are disappeared in the country. Uh, and they they use the spotlight that the World Cup uh was giving them to highlight their their plight and really confront the government on their negligence in the fight against these forced disappearances, which mostly happen at the hands of organized crime, which are the cartels that everyone knows, in really like truly uh gruesome circumstances. And and these mothers are really an open wound in the country, their their plight is a symbol of you know the deepest moral uh pains and contradictions that that Mexico lives with every day. So, with that context, there was a lot of fear that these protests were really gonna derail uh the whole thing. Uh, there were also some smaller ones really aimed at at FIFA and the World Cup itself because of you know corporate greed, etc. Uh, and so in the first game, which was uh Mexico's inauguration against South Africa, all of these groups mobilized at the same time. So the fear was really big. Uh but the government really prepared a massive uh police deployment and they preemptively closed streets around the Azteca stadium. And in the end, you know, with a few blips, but really quite minor, it all went out, went really perfectly. There were maybe some isolated confrontations, but in general, the teachers or the mothers didn't want to be cast as agitators, the government didn't want to be cast as oppressive, and so in the end there wasn't any confrontation. The match went to schedule, Mexico won, and everyone was happy. And and in fact, because Mexico have won and they've they've won every single game, they still haven't conceded any goals, and that sort of uh joy has really drowned out uh uh all of that previous noise that was uh that was there. Um you know sorry, yeah. The teachers have left the cities, they didn't get a deal, and they've just gone back to the southern states where they're where they're from. Uh the the mothers are still there, but they're just the mothers aren't going anywhere. The mothers aren't going anywhere, but they're completely overshadowed by the joy that you know Mexicans have shown in this sort of, in my opinion, a sort of cathartic uh communal joy that has taken over the country, uh, especially Mexico City with these like absolutely amazing uh celebrations uh after each win, uh which tragically on Tuesday actually ended with four people dying uh crushed by by the crowds. So uh in the end it's actually been a massive success despite those early challenges and fears.

SPEAKER_05 8:27

There's um I mean, just sticking to the mothers of the disappeared, there's a a kind of a moral purpose um which is generational, and we know this from other examples in history to these things don't don't change from a day-to-day basis, but the ongoing presence of uh of those kinds of figures that will not be silenced by any means, uh it's not relevant, it's not relationable to one event or another, but it's the ongoing presence of what it is that they're doing that is a kind of a moral conscience of of the country, and of course it is relevant to their presence here, but um but it's also broadened that. I thought it was interesting, and not remotely in a kind of critical sense, but how you spoke about the uh the the kind of corporate greed component, and it became like a little bubble that we sort of we we we passed on from, and it's this kind of strange sense that we normalize corporate greed now. It's just kind of one of those things that we expect uh accept or not accept, but it's just sort of exists around these these big sort of events. But Mayu, if I can just bring you in here because of course one of the big historic um questions around these massive infrastructural world events, often sporting events, is about investment. Where do you choose to invest? We we of course saw that in Brazil 2014 with mass protests. We we already are seeing that with Morocco in 2030, and undoubtedly, as as Nick said, we we saw that with uh a lot of the development in Inverted Commons around sort of uh what might be termed uh decorative infrastructure around main avenues, around uh the airport, things which people coming in and out were going to use, but actually don't benefit the general populace to a to a significant long-lasting legacy effect.

SPEAKER_07 10:14

Uh I don't think there's a way of comparing the United States with Mexico in terms of infrastructure. Um if we speak specifically about stadiums, in the United States you get a new stadium for each or for different uh team every 20 years. And I don't think Mexico right now needs more stadiums. Definitely they need a lot of things uh in terms of infrastructure built that don't necessarily need to be uh related to to sports. And furthermore, I think that uh this it's interesting these deals they get with with uh with building sports venues around the world where the government puts the money or the revenue goes to private corporations. And I think that's something Mexico cannot cannot do that simply. I mean because we have to maybe put it out in the light. Um out of the three host nations, definitely Mexico is the weaker one in terms of many things, right? So I think again back to the point of only getting 30 matches, I think those are way more than probably Mexico should have had in terms of the revenue, but in terms of the passion and the effort and the joyness and the happiness that it brought to people, I think you should have got some more, right? Um in conclusion, I I think that Mexico as a government you inherit this World Cup, right? You you don't uh the the government that got the the bid that that won the bid are no longer in place and you just have to to bring it to good terms, I guess. So in a way, the government that that it's in place when the the World Cup is going to happen, uh but they just have their uh hands tied, I guess. Uh they just have to put the money in and they have to do whatever resources they have to bring it to good terms.

SPEAKER_05 12:23

Sure, but but this government has um has happily adopted uh the World Cup. It hasn't rejected the the bid in any way. And and and in a in a kind of uh broadly understanding sense, I understand I of course I understand the importance of the World Cup to Mexico, and uh as we discussed before, of course, of course, Claudia Scheinbaum, the Mexican president, has been very deliberately on the in a particular sense kind of inclusive about the possibilities that the World Cup brings. But then you've got this sort of conflict with what Nick was saying before about some social movements that are taking place, which which the government also it's kind of a difficult juggling act for the presidency at the moment because there's a particular sort of inclusive vision, but there's also a don't ruin our event vision, which the Mexican administration, in particular Morena, struggle to join the dots on.

SPEAKER_07 13:21

Yeah, yeah, you you're right. I think, I mean, of course, if people are happy, then the government benefits from it. So if Mexico wins and and the the World Cup just is uh happy uh brings good results to to in in sports-wise, then people will be happy, and obviously the Morena government are very good at uh uh with a literal translation, but hope uh jumping into the train that's not theirs to do it very well, and I don't blame them because you know it's politics. Yeah, it's politics and that's the way it works. Uh but I think that it also uh gave uh platform to many other people, not just the the people doing demonstrations around the stadium, but for instance, one of the main uh characters that is against uh the uh Morena government right now, that owns a broadcasting company, Telezteca Company, used the World Cup to publicly announce before the inaugurational match uh his political aspirations. He's going to be or he's trying to be the new president of Mexico, and he used the World Cup Inauguration Days to announce it.

SPEAKER_05 14:44

The World Cup is not gonna change any of the sort of complicated um machinations of Mexican politics, sports, and um and politics if you like. Emilio, I know you've got something interesting to say in terms of the history of this, in terms of the history of Mexican companies approach appropriating themselves from uh this is uh Emilio Vera who's who's spoken in this in a previous uh section. But Emilio, maybe you can just reintroduce yourself and new listeners and just explain a little bit about what you were saying about uh about your thoughts on Mexican companies and the difficulties in which there is this kind of this this ball, this knotted ball within any development that takes place in Mexico.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

Yeah, thank you, John. I I was referring uh regarding to the 70s that was considered the Mexican uh development most important stage. But nowadays it's it's quite crazy what is happening because I think that the owner of uh TV Azteca that was mentioning uh he was uh forbidden to visit uh US for many years, probably ten years. But nowadays is the it's one of the most authentic uh uh options for the for Mexico to change the government. And if we analyze what is happening in the in the whole region from the Trump perspective, the the governments are changing and are more aligned with with Trump. And something similar is happening in Mexico. They opened the the doors for the Ricardo Salinas at the beginning of the year in January, and they are supporting a lot this this candidate. Then I think the the the the situation of Mexico is changing, and there is a a lot of support of the uh main uh owners of companies in Mexico. And I was referring to uh companies as Bimbo, Cemex, and all the big companies that are having success in the in the world from Mexico. Then there are many interests to to to flip the the coin in Mexico and to make this switch.

SPEAKER_05 17:05

I just just to sort of um contextualize that a little bit, and it's also some of the stuff that Mario Paul was saying before. So Mexico has a history of having some, I mean, basically oligarchs, right? That have particular businesses that are found founded around in the context of bimbo bread, in the context of semes, semex, cementos de Mexico, seminar uh concrete of Mexico, and a variety of others. And so there's this distilling into particular kind of oligarchical power, which we're kind of used to now, but it's actually been going on in Mexico for a number of generations. And and so, in many ways, what you were saying in the earlier um iteration, Mario Paulo, about the the way in which Mexican football is trapped into existing structures relates entirely. Maybe you can just speak to this a little bit, Emilio, uh, is trapped a little bit in existing business structures.

SPEAKER_06 17:55

Uh I I do believe uh it's quite uh it's quite important to uh to put on on the table that many of the companies that are uh having success in the region. Uh the second largest market in the world is is Mexico. Uh I will refer to, for example, the uh OEM brands from any auto industry as Nissan. Mexico is a very important market. Mazda, Mexico is a very important market. You will refer to Mercado Libre from Argentina that is a huge success in the same way. In the last years like Amazon. Mexico is the second largest market, as well as Amazon. Then there are many interest uh uh and from US and from the this oligarchy uh to make it happen, then I think it's it's important to use this soft power through the football to change the mind of people and to to make it happen.

SPEAKER_05 19:09

Yeah, and just I guess if we're talking about Latin America, just to contextualize for listeners who may not be aware of it. I mean, Latin America is a hugely diverse, disparate, uh ethnically uh complex space, but economically, basically, what we're talking about is Mexico, Argentina, and Brazil. Those are the economic powerhouses that drive forward um I guess development in Latin America.

SPEAKER_06 19:35

Correct. Correct. Is is is the development and and I think it's a great opportunity if you see for the next 20 years to bring this make Mexico important again, no? Uh and the influence of Mexico is like MAGA, it's like MAGA, but in Mexico.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

GA doesn't have to be a good thing. That's correct. That's correct. Katie, can I just bring you in at this point? It's it's a it's a difficult moment to bring you in because of course you're sort of boxed in as a as a as a diplomat and stuff as well. But but um, you know, you've carved your own path. So how does how does all of this context in in the sense of uh your perspective of how you carve out the best possible opportunities for Mexico look like?

SPEAKER_04 20:21

So I think um, I mean, this is the first time we've had a World Cup tournament across three countries, right? So that's incredible credit to Mexico, that is an incredible feat to do, that is an incredible tournament feat across three different countries, two different languages as well, like three very different sort of politics as well that's going on. Um, and I think for for us are in the British Embassy, our main focus is you know the priority of of sort of fan safety and having having a brilliant time. And the majority so far have had an amazing experience. And but our job in in the British Embassy is you know, we prepare for the worst and we hope for the best. Um, and so far it's been going really, really well. But for any major sporting events, that means crowd management, that means public safety, that means transport, that means the weather, uh crime, um, but also making sure that sort of uh fans have the information that they need to as well. So uh in our sort of consular team, which is um uh a government term, but consular basically means when when British people are abroad, uh we we keep them safe. Um and whether that's a lost passport, whether they've uh got in trouble with uh with the law or with um needing sort of uh assistance because they've become ill, that's what we sort of support with. Um and we've done a lot, John. We've done a lot of preparation over the last two years for for this moment.

SPEAKER_05 21:38

Um It's been a big thing on the horizon, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 21:41

We also didn't know if it would happen, right? So we planned for this eventuality.

SPEAKER_05 21:45

You mean politically you didn't know it was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_04 21:46

No, I mean uh we didn't know if England would get to Mexico. Sorry, England. Sorry.

SPEAKER_05 21:53

Yeah, but of course now it's a bigger thing because you know in the last fifteen minutes.

SPEAKER_04 21:57

Of course we would always know that England were gonna get to Mexico.

SPEAKER_05 22:00

15 minutes on Wednesday, there were two lucky goals scored by Harry Kane.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Indeed, indeed. God bless Harry Kane. But yeah, exactly. So we we plan, we prepare, we get excited for this moment. But also it's you know, it is football, it's on is on the roll of a dice sometimes. Um and there's been you know a lot of chatter about what will what will happen on the on the game on Sunday. Um and you know, I know altitude is a big problem, and that's one of the the key issues. We've also been sort of advising our fans as well as uh how to be safe and secure in sort of Mexico City, but also have to have the best and enjoyable time because Mexico City is a brilliant city to enjoy the football in, and so we want fans to do that um safely and securely.

SPEAKER_05 22:37

This is just a a sideline not related to the sort of social political opportunities and challenges, but um, but there has been a media frenzy around altitude. How is that from a sort of diplomatic perspective? How is that featured in your intro?

SPEAKER_04 22:50

Yeah, definitely. So we we've got a couple of key messages for our for our British fans that are travelling as well with altitude. Drink water, drink a lot of water because uh you know the alcohol does hit differently when you're at altitude uh as well. Uh keep your passport safe because if you lose your passport.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

Altitude doesn't have an effect on a passport.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

Silly things happen when you're at altitude and uh all those types of things, but uh yeah, definitely keep your passport safe because um yeah, we if you're going then onto the onto the US, then you won't be able to uh travel onto the US, but we do issue emergency travel documents if needed as well. But I think World Cups are extraordinary opportunities, right? Like you said about the challenges, but I'd also I'd also flip that into the opportunities that it that it can bring. And you know, they bring people together, they showcase the best of what a country can offer. Um and what an incredible moment that we've had to to bring Mexico and uh and England together for for you know Sunday's match.

SPEAKER_05 23:47

And of course, in the previous section we spoke about social opportunities, and um and I'm guessing that the the very advent of a World Cup means that you can also try and leverage those kinds of things with with a with a Mexican government, which you know credit to them and fair to say, is already open to those ideas anyway. 100%. But you can there's a sort of a synchronicity, uh symbiosis to that, but just also just alongside that, um just a question on that because it also seems to me that a lot of what you guys have been doing as an embassy is also not centrally driven, it's not London driven, it's kind of very British embassy in Mexico driven, and it's kind of uh unusual for foreign policy to exist in that local way.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

Yeah, definitely, and that's why I think the the blend of our team is so brilliant. You know, we've got British diplomats, but we also work very closely with our Mexican colleagues saying, right, guys, you want to make the most of this opportunity because it's really going to land well with our Mexican audiences, for example. Um, and so, for example, one area that I'm particularly proud of was our partnership with the UK Football Policing Unit. So we've brought them out here and our counterparts in Mexico with the with the Mexican police. Uh the Mexican police have gone back to the UK to understand how the UK polices uh football games and vice versa. Uh, and they're here uh this weekend to sort of support fans and safety security. And it's you know, it's not about enforcement, but it's also about sharing expertise, understanding that fan behaviour. As I said at the beginning, our fans are very similar, they really do enjoy a game. Uh they enjoy a game, whether that's with with chance, with celebrations, but also with um uh, you know, they really do enjoy a drink as well, but also keeping sort of supporters safe and secure and ensuring everyone can enjoy the gen the event. So that's one of the areas that I think, yeah, we've worked really hard on to make sure that we're sharing that expertise, but building those relationships and and working across both both authorities in the UK and Mexico.

SPEAKER_05 25:33

Thanks, Katie. Nick, um obviously projecting here, and projecting is never an easy uh question to Paul's errand. But uh, in terms of how this World Cup will be remembered outside of the sport, we're gonna come to that a little bit, but um you know what's your sense of the potential legacy of this World Cup for Mexico socially and politically?

SPEAKER_08 25:54

I I think uh it's definitely the joy. Uh people will remember the scenes of the independencia, which is one of the the main monuments in in the city, uh being you know uh packed uh with with Mexico fans after every single game.

SPEAKER_05 26:14

1.5 million people after Ecuador, which you know, if you you break it down, it's seven percent of the population of all of Mexico City, which is huge.

SPEAKER_08 26:23

No, it's it's amazing. Uh in fact, well, tomorrow we'll see what what ends up happening, but I'm sure uh all the all the uh uh backs and forths with the time changes, which obviously all the listeners which will will also have known will have uh had much to do with uh preparing for that eventuality. The match is gonna be at 6 p.m. on a Sunday. Uh uh as we mentioned, uh football fans, both Mexican and British, like a drink. Uh so you can definitely uh not tonight, there's no no alcohol tonight with the audience tonight. But uh on a Sunday before 6 p.m. you can definitely drink a few beers uh or a few tequilas uh for that matter. So uh I think that's definitely that was definitely in the calculus, even if even if it's not explicitly uh said.

SPEAKER_05 27:17

It's thinly veiled, wasn't it? Yeah. That there was other issues there which were not to do with the potential thunderstorm.

SPEAKER_08 27:22

So and yeah, so in and and if Mexico win uh tomorrow, uh it'll be the first time ever they get to a quarterfinals. Um it's the first time they would have beaten. I know the first not the first time ever they get to a quarterfinals, but that it would be their first time ever they get to a sixth game. Um and that would be a very big deal. Essentially, it's also the last game that is being played in Mexico, so it's it's the the Mexican team's farewell to the Mexican fans. So in a in a in a way, and uh, and as uh Mario Paula had said, Mexico don't dream of winning the World Cup. You know, really for them it's getting to this stage, and and in that sense, the game against England is a final to them. It really signifies that much. Uh being England as well, and and symbolically sort of what that means in the football world as well. Uh so I think there's a potential for you know that 1.5 million people after the Ecuador being, you know, absolutely eclipsed, you know, we're maybe I don't know if if doubling that that figure, but it could happen. And and that eventuality uh is definitely being looked at, I'm sure, by the Mexican government, and they want to avoid a catastrophe like like uh the tragedy that already happened on Tuesday night. Of course, it's uh so that that being said, for for Mexico, the legacy is without a doubt uh linked to the success of this Mexican team, which is or has already been historic and has the potential of reaching uh newer heights uh if they beat England, which you know I hope they don't.

SPEAKER_05 29:06

Is a hypothetical, which you're gonna come to the next no in the previous section. Um just as a there you go, I told you I'd screw it up. Um just as uh yeah, I mean of course it is a huge public safety question uh as well. Um Mario Paul, in terms of how the the World Cup will be remembered, what's your perspective on the best let's just stick with the best possible, right? Let's go utopia on this.

SPEAKER_06 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:33

How what what's the potential for this World Cup in terms of its future memory for Mexico if the dominoes fall, as potentially they might?

SPEAKER_07 29:46

You mean like specifically sport-wise, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:48

No, I also mean socially and politically.

SPEAKER_07 29:51

I think one of the biggest uh things that we have to talk about is the way that the Mexican government has handled this. We were talking about a time where there's a colossal amount of pressure on on the Mexican government from another hosting uh hosting nation, and I think it's been amazing the way they they they handled it. I thought they were gonna completely fail, and they managed that. Not perfectly, of course, but they they managed that. But as well, I think in terms of and this is going to be full utopian, like you said. Go full utopia. I think it's very it's a nice feeling to see all the Mexican fans coming together in many ways. Of course, there's a big party factor in between, which is not a great motor for social change, but but still I think it's gonna be remembered like that and and that we can get together to build a better community.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

Look, I don't think it's it's um it's it's there, right? It's a pot it's always a possibility. Katie, maybe we can just finish finish with with you on this. This has been a big project for four years of your life. Um and it's it's a full circle thing, partly with the World Cup, but also with you, with you personally, um if you sort of project forward to uh to the future at some point when you're sitting in your sofa in southwest London over a nice warm log fire which you aren't allowed to burn. Um you know, and you look back on this, what what are the things which you would hope emerge from this in terms of sort of traction and social possibility of what of the work, the incredible work that you guys have done and you personally have done over that time?

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Good question, John. You've gone deep, no? Uh okay, we'll have a think about that. But um, yeah, so I I really do believe so. I've been a diplomat for sort of 10 years uh now, uh, and I've been lucky enough for the last two years to work on work on the World Cup. And out of everything that sort of I've worked on and different overseas postings, I really do believe that sort of sports diplomacy is one of our biggest assets. You know, as I said earlier, the the world is very, very polarized at the minute, but actually, sports is one of the ways that we can connect. And what a really easy conversation, a really easy way to open those doors, whether it's about what teams you support in the Premier League, whether it's about okay, have you seen the latest game on Saturday? You know, that is the conversation sort of starter that you know can lead to more challenging conversations about sort of uh politics or sort of world affairs and and sort of geopolitics at the minute. And I think, yeah, it's gone back to your question what I want one of those sort of legacies at the minute. So we're we're still in a brilliant, brilliant group WhatsApp chat with with Chris and Trudy, who came over here uh a couple of months ago. And I think this is just the beginning. So I think that you know, uh we did the brilliant campaign for football is our language, um, and it's for it's for the World Cup uh in 2026 that we're gonna keep going, right? We're gonna keep going to 2027, we're gonna keep going to 2031 when Mexico hosts uh the Women's World Cup as well. Um, I hope to be back. That would be probably my personal dream, John, that I come back for the Women's World Cup in 2031. Um, and then we keep going to you know, potentially when when the UK will host host 2035 as well. And I think this is what we're doing as a as a legacy piece. Um, and yeah, let's keep going.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

Yeah, I mean you said you were a diplomat, but my sense is that this is this is a fight for you, you know, as as it should be. Yeah. So, you know, I don't think this is divorceable from your professional, there's there's a kind of a personal component with that. Um Paul Schmidt Troschka is with the roving microphone, and uh, as regular listeners will know, Gordon Massinho has something to say.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Always have something to say. Very interesting listening to the debate on the socio, political, cultural aspects of Mexico and the World Cup. Um the sort of I get the feeling there's been a lot of angst about the whole uh the whole process basically. And I just want to turn it around and say that I can't really speak for Morocco guys, but Portugal and Spain is going to be completely different from all this BS that's been going around Mexico, Canada, US. There won't be, I don't think, I don't think, there'll be any of the problems that seems to have consumed this World Cup and has sort of dominated the headlines. Um, of course, there's there's still the the potential that it'll be expanded to 64 teams, I think that's a certainty actually, uh, over in Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay. But people who want to come and have a joyous experience, not just if you're Mexican fans, a joyous experience as fans, come to Portugal and Spain.

SPEAKER_05 34:46

And Morocco.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I can't speak for Morocco because I've never been there, but I I have been to Portugal and Spain, and I know that's part of the problem, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 34:54

From a Morocco perspective, that's part of the issue, is that Morocco feels sidelined in a way that sort of Mexico do. And if you're the the the thinking is, and I'm not saying this is necessarily my perspective, but the thinking is that if you're actually having a genuine sort of multi-country event, that it should be actually egalitarian. But it should be about, okay, it's about three countries, not with the league country, and then sort of subsidiaries, satellite countries. And the perspective from both Morocco, and I think validly from Mexico as well, is that this is a USA World Cup with some of Mexico, and Morocco arguing for the final uh in Morocco and not the Bonabelle in in Madrid, is also them saying, Are we just being tagged on here? Is this just a political decision to get a little bit of Africa in, or is this actually about Morocco participating?

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I'd uh John, I'd just like to add a little bit to um Gordon's uh point there. It I do think it you know there's been so much of a focus in this particular World Cup on so much negative stuff, particularly related to FIFA um and everything that we've been talking about ad nauseum. Uh we've been talking about Gordon in earlier podcasts positioning himself to become uh a British envoy, potential future British ambassador to Guatemala, Costa Rica, uh any of the El Salvador, any of the countries in in Central America. I think he just made his pitch to Katie, who knows everyone at the Foreign Office, to now become an envoy to Portugal.

SPEAKER_04 36:22

I'll see what I can do.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Not not Morocco, but Portugal, because everyone knows Gordon's um roots and ancestrally are from Portugal. So Katie, I'll I I I I predict he'll be tapping you up very shortly.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

I can I I can I can play the fifth for you, Katie, on this one. Let's let's uh let's move on.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Any final comments about um about the legacy or the the components of uh uh challenges that Mexico have have experienced Thanks John I think that um this match is one of the best conversations that the UK and Mexico has uh have had uh you know in ages. Um maybe the final whistle will give a result, but the real score has been building, you know, for over centuries. And um that's on our friendship, our partnerships, and our mutual respect. So that's where we are gonna win really, and that's the match that I think that will you know come across um when we look back in some years.

SPEAKER_05 37:27

Yeah, so uh which might be a controversial point, the football is actually an irrelevance. Uh let's finish there. Thank you, everybody.