DISCUSSION: World Cup Semi-Finals Preview

Declan Link battles with his device in this World Cup semi-final preview of the blockbuster France vs. Spain and England vs. Argentina ties. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Everyone, welcome back to World Cup football, etc. Where if I'm speaking a little bit faster than normal, it's because of the sheer excitement at the fact that I am joined by Paul Schmidt Troschke and Declan Link. And it's been more than 24 hours since I spoke to Either. I've I've had a bit of a chance to catch up on some World Cup commentary and footage. Declan Paul. And it struck me, Paul, that um uh uh chierry Henry has uh, I mean, of course, as well as being one of the the the world's um famous uh player, football players, soccer players, but also just how he has sort of um a great lilt to his voice. I think um you you have something of the chierry Henri about you when you speak sometimes, Paul.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Oh wow, I didn't uh didn't expect you to uh to open with such a such a big big compliment today.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Well, don't get carried away because I've only set that already am. I could introduce Declan Link as the Alexi Delales.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

John, I saw that coming.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

I was gonna say Micah Richards.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

I saw that coming and I saw that coming an absolute mile off. That's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

I saw him and I thought, you know, under a certain light, Declan, and with a certain angle. I mean, you you're you you're a way better commentator than Alexi Lallas, who who is one of the worst commentators of all time. He just has no self-awareness whatsoever. But under a certain light, you you don't have a dissimilar uh visage to him. So I'm I'm not impressed with that because basically you're calling me a ginger dickhead. Well, not not the dickhead bit specifically, but um no, I I'm sorry, you clearly are no Alexi Lalos, but I thought I'd bring him up just because I I had heard some quotes from him, but when I just was looking at um watching some some of the sort of clashes that uh Thierry Henry and Slasan Ibrahimovich have had with him recently, it is quite staggering his level of ignorance.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

There's only six days to go, so don't put it beyond either one of them to clock him or give him another Glasgow uh handshake between now and Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Yeah, it's quite rocket because there's no they they're not even hiding their intolerance. It makes for quite compelling television because they both just clearly and the and the um and the presenter also kind of stuck with it, but both Zlatan and Thierry clearly just have no time for him whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, and and again, maybe at the end of the day, because everyone's talking about it, uh, although in the early period of the Fox TV coverage over here in the States, they might have thought, oh my god, what have we done? It's actually become a major story, so that so it's a sub-story, and and as you know, any news in and any sort of um focus is better than nothing at all. So, you know, maybe it's the greatest thing they ever did with this soccer coverage over here.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah, it's um it uh that definitely happened upon some parallel compelling viewing, which actually has nothing to do with the uh with the football. But um let's move on. We're gonna be previewing the semifinals of the uh of the tournament today. But before we do, Paul Deppin. Paul, maybe we can just start with you just to get your reaction to the the comments from Gianni and Fantino in the last couple of days. Well, two two stories really. One is um the 64 team world cup, uh, but also the this idea that the the um sections of the pitch that's gonna be used for for the final in New Jersey are going to be sold off after the match. Paul, which of those two stories would you like to begin with?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Oh, maybe maybe the the pitch which is which is gonna be sold. Um, I mean uh by by now I think uh we we sh everybody should expect something like this to happen. Um the only thing I was surprised with that he actually is not, I mean not yet. Uh he that he might yet had announced that this money will actually go directly into his own pocket. And um I mean it is uh it is ridiculous. Uh it's absolutely ridiculous. I'm by now, um, I must say that over the over the World Cup the the Johnny Infantino um comments have have dialed down and also the controversies, uh probably because it was overshadowed by by many things, uh and also because he did not have uh too much time to um to say uh uh yeah uh words of uh of of limited uh intelligence into a microphone. Um but yeah, that's that's my my my very concise comment on the first story.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Yeah, I mean him and Alexi Lallas doing a joint interview would be a side to to behold. And just a separate point on Jenny Infantino, um obviously we've seen him at pretty much him and John Terry at pretty much every match at this World Cup, in which he's always under the shade, but I can't remember which match it was. I don't know whether you guys caught it the other day, Declan, where he was sat full in the sun in his white shirt and tie and uh and his bald pate was definitely struggling under the the brute power of the sun. It might actually have been the the uh the England Norway match.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

And my my my thing has given up on me.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Your thing has given up on you. What's it a sexual confession? No, no, it's no no. It's that fancy microphone we got. Because it's got it's because it is it's it's got lights and everything, isn't it? It's quite it's also quite um yeah. Uh uh how do I say this?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

It's um now now you can hear me.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

For some reason it's been a bit temperamental the last two or three times. And uh this is a microphone. This is the you know, the round thing, the round, the round thing that makes that you know that makes us look a professional. Makes you happy. Makes us look repression. Oh god. I'm not uh I'm not gonna keep turning on and off. Is it flashing? Is it flashing? It's going now.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

It's like it's like John Travolta and saying, How long how long have we got before it stops working again? Um did you see Gianni Infantino sweating at the uh in in the full face of the sun at the England Argentina, at the England Norway match?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Um I'm I'm assuming I I have watched all of the highlights of the game, the extended highlights. Uh he wasn't funny enough in my area in the stadium, so I didn't see him up close. So I'm gonna take your word for it. But to be honest with you, uh that the temperatures, the humidity, uh, and everything else, if if he's dressed up as he normally does do, I'm not surprised one bit that he was sweating and he's probably got a little um red top of his head and everything else because um the conditions were incredible. But as you said, it's just unless they've got like a a um uh a look alike that turns up at some of the games, I just can't believe with the carbon footprint with how he manages to turn up at the vast majority of these games.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Yeah, it's it's been quite staggering, isn't it? Because there's been a number of days in which there's multiple games. So it must be that he gets out, gets in a helicopter outside the stadium, and then moves across to wherever on earth it is that the next one is. And the USA is not a small, um, a small country.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

But that isn't that what kings and leaders of the world do? And he's a king and the leader of the world.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

Yeah, I mean that that is it it is his perspective, isn't it? I mean, so only uh unelected individuals and the sort of the Donald Trump to this world um say that the ongoing level of stupid things that Gianni Infantino does. But um he he does he does uh when he speaks, he it definitely doesn't have an edit button. He just says stuff as though um he's one of those individuals that clearly doesn't have any sentient advisors close to him, giving him giving him any any PR training. But um Declan, just a quick uh thought on um because one of the the things, of course, we've spoken about this uh 48 team World Cup and the fact that it's it's been a great World Cup, really, and we'll um for many reasons not Gianni and Fantino related, and I'm sure we'll we'll after the the tournament ends, we'll come back and talk about all of this. But just your initial thoughts on this um the proposed expansion to a 64 team World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Again, like your um setup tonight with um the uh Lexi Lala's thing, you can see it coming a mile off that uh you know, because of the success or the perceived success globally of this World Cup, because no one can argue that the vast majority of the games have been absolutely superb, and and that's really you know, arguably that could be luck with um Cape Verde, Capo Verde, and uh Curacell, you know, doing so well and becoming the darlings of the World Cup, but Johnny and Jan Gianni Infantino is already throwing it out there, and it's very obvious what he's going to do. And I I think you know, because the way he's selling it to the smaller FIFA nations in the world, there's an air of inevitability that it will happen in 2034 in Saudi Arabia because he's in bed with the Saudi Arabians as well. So um I just think it's still going to be a diluted competition. And at the end of the day, I heard someone on one of my sports uh stations today say, yeah, you can flower it up, you can you know put lipstick on a pig and all that good of stuff, but at the end of the day, it's all about money, and it doesn't really matter because just like with this World Cup, FIFA, to their credit, have done well predicting the top four seeds, and we've got semi-finals with the top four seeds. Um, and everyone's saying what a great World Cup it is, but FIFA have somehow changed them, been able to almost alter the mentality of people where they're chasing tickets now and they're happy to spend um you know 1300, 1800, 2500 to watch a game. And so and they feel that they're lucky to have done that. So in in um Saudi Arabia, obviously it's not going to be the same sort of entrepreneurial capitalistic society, easy to get to, um, other social issues going on there. But I do think that there's a an absolute an air of inevitability that we will be looking at a 64-team World Cup in 2034. And uh, unless there's some way that Gianni Infantino can be uh get get out of his job and and that we can get rid of him, uh that's what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Yeah, I mean, it might even be earlier than that. I mean, it could be 2030 given the fact that because one of the things about this this expanded World Cup is that um it's gonna mean 128 matches, uh, and that's gonna require huge infrastructure. So my sort of thinking is actually that potentially this sort of multi-host um template could could work. And and that almost might be a better way of keeping the three nations of um of Spain, Portugal, and and Morocco happy. Of course, for 2034, it's a it's a bigger issue because of um Saudi Arabia and the Saudi Arabian, I guess, sort of sporting infrastructure. But they've already come out and said that they could quite easily, they say, host um 64 teams. They're building another 15 stadiums, uh, apparently. Just a quick point of um, I guess just a quick explanation. My understanding is that what this would mean is that an extra four groups would be added, increasing the groups from 12 to 16. And then, unlike at this World Cup, so we're not going to have another round before the round of 32. Basically, we'd have no third place sides going through. So it would only be the top two in each group, as has always previously happened. So uh after the group stages, we'd go straight into that round of 32. Um, and then I think it's also worth noting in Fantino's statement that the World Cup needs to be for, and I quote, the whole world, not just Europe and South America. Uh, he referenced the huge success of increasing the number of African sides from five to ten in this edition, with nine of those going through in um to the knockout stages. So specifically, it seems what he's imagining is significant growth of opportunity among Asian uh qualifiers, which I think is is interesting. And um, and you know, not that I would ever want to agree on anything with uh Mr. Infantino, but there is some logic towards making the World Cup more of a world component as regards the finals, Paul.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, uh I think that um that we definitely can do a two-hour episode only only on this topic. Because what I mean the if you look at the players, what what um what kind of pansom they have um over a year with all these different competitions, um, and with all these different competitions, FIFA tries to uh tries to invent, or um or the the regional um governing bodies try to try to uh invent uh and bring into into being just because of the money. And if I I personally I would like to see an expanded World Cup, which of course would mean then as well that uh the World Cup would be even longer, probably more six weeks than this uh this year's five weeks. Um because I think ultimately it's gonna be it's gonna be definitely a better competition, right? Um, and uh in the end, the winner will just have deserved it even more uh compared to compared to this uh this 2026 edition. Um yeah, but again, uh you have the Conference League, you have the the Nations League, um you have the the club uh FIFA Club World Cup. Um you have so many uh different competitions who are still expanding. And um and I think that uh that all this, of course, only can work if FIFA actually actually survives and if Johnny and Fantino should should give a similar performance um as uh as as to this year um or 2025, 2026. Um I think that at some point the limit will be a certain limit will be reached where I can see a UEFA, for example, pulling out, which would completely um take away um any any real power from uh from FIFA, at least at this point in time, uh maybe in coordination with uh with another um another uh continental governing body. And um he he's definitely he's definitely uh gambling because every every uh additional World Cup match and World Cup Day takes away time from uh from the National Leagues, of course, and the the other um continental competitions. So I think that um I would like to see that, um, but I think that we will reach uh some sort of breaking point where we will see uh restructuring either on the um on the kind of uh organizational side or actually on the how many competitions do we are uh do we have, how extensive they are. Um uh but yeah, I could I could talk on and on. Um in the end, it's it's it's welcome, uh, an ex uh an expanded World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

In in my opinion, John, ultimately uh uh FIFA and and uh Gian Chiani and and his boys, they're looking to bring in India and China and places like that. Yeah, because uh, you know, uh if if I've been fortunate to visit both places from a from a football perspective, and both of those countries would absolutely love to be involved, and then obviously you get those two countries involved with their two massive populations, uh the TV rights, the the everything would would would would go exponentially in favor of FIFA from a financial perspective. So they'll they'll talk about the small nations and they'll give me money back to the game, etc. etc. But there's bigger fish to fly. And if they can knock it out of the park with one or both of those two humongous populations, then FIFA are laughing and he's gonna be a god forever within the word of FIFA, John Channy is.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah, this it's definitely um that's where the the the sort of the financial landscape completely changes. I mean, it's obviously it's not as though FIFA don't make any money, but if you hit and include India and China, then it becomes something else altogether. Difficulty, Paul, of course, not that we want to stay on this too longer, is that um the the policy making around these expansions is um you know there is vested interest from most federations, and it's only really UEFA that is sort of the opposing magnetic force, but it is of course that the strongest and most venerable uh and impactful um uh federation out there, but we'll we'll see how how that all pans out. Um let's get to the semi-finals, Declan, Spain against France. How do you see it shaping up?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

I see um, I mean, France have topped their group with a perfect nine points. They beat Senegal, Iraq, and Norway, and they hadn't had not now conceded in knockout rounds. Um, so they're looking very good and they look like they can uh go up the gears. Spain, on the other hand, you know, they're into their first World Cup semi-final since uh South Africa in 2010. They didn't convincingly win their group with that great performance by Kate Verde. They beat Saudi Arabia, they beat Uruguay, and then they they easily beat Austria. Mourinho has become this knockout stage hero and with the with the winner against Portugal and Belgium. So I think it's gonna be a fantastically interesting game, uh, because you could make a logical argument for either team to um to win this game, um, from a tactical perspective and from a historical perspective, because I know that Spain beat France in the Euros in 2024, Spain beat France in the nations, uh Nations League. Um, so they've got that on their side, but anyone who who's been watching the games during this tournament look at France and say they are by far and away the best team. And that's why we all love football, because it's a one-off game tomorrow, so everything about the game uh in that fantastic stadium in Dallas is gonna be absolutely fantastic and fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

It um on the face of it though, you would you would put France as the favourite. I mean, of course, you know, uh qualifying it with the fact that it's a one-off match, uh it's a knockout match, but um um and Spain have been solid if unspectacular, they definitely haven't hit the heights, but um you would say on balance that um that France have the the um uh all of the tools in their kit available to break down Spain potentially, Declan. Whereas it's not entirely true, or it doesn't seem to be entirely the case the other way around.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

No, I completely agree. However, historically in the last 10 meetings the two countries have had, Spain have actually won six of those games. So I think there is almost like, and this is why the World Cup is fantastic, is that Spain have forget about the two squads comparing the tactical formations, blah di blah di blah. I actually think Spain hold like some type of psychological hold over France based on the recent record, based on those last 10 meetings. Um I think it will probably come down to Mbappé because Mbappe is is carving his name out in history as one of the best footballers the world's ever seen. And although I'm sort of leaning slightly towards Spain, one because I think they're an extremely good team, and in the Euros final in 2024, they were absolutely incredible, but also selfishly, I would like if England could get through against Argentina for England to play Spain rather than France.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah, but that's an interesting point, isn't it? Because you would think that um uh I mean to Spain, sorry, France is definitely the most complete of the remaining four four nations. So you would you would think, and actually, yeah, I mean I I think England does have a pretty good, we'll come to it in a second, but a pretty good shot against Argentina, and definitely a better shot against Spain, I think, than they would have against uh France. Paul, um we talked about um uh Mbappé a lot. Um Lamin Lamal, or as Declan calls in, Yamin Lamal, uh sometimes is that a quiet tournament, uh, which almost seems to be ridiculous, the ridiculous thing to say, because he's um he's not even 20 years old. Yeah, he's about to be 20 years old. But but if you look at the sort of the uh what we what we perceive to be the main figures uh coming into this tournament, of course he came in on an injury as well, then um you would say he's um he's potentially, I'd say this kind of um yeah, under underperformed. His birthday, in fact, is today. So he is 20 years old today. No, 19 years old today. 19 years old today.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

John, who's doing your research? He's 19 years old today. Today we're recording this, July the 13th, and he's 19 years old. So what whoever is feeding you this information?

SPEAKER_03 22:15

No, it's it's me. I'm struggling to count up to 20 is the uh is the sad is the sad realization, sad admission there. But anyway, let's get back to the feeder. Uh Paul, um Lamin Yamal underperformed, or are we just uh or are our uh expectations too high?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Um I think that um he definitely underperformed, yes, but a big uh a big factor in that of course was his uh his injury um shortly before the tournament started, and uh it wasn't even clear if he would be able to uh show up for the first match, which uh which he um yeah uh then inevitably uh if eventually did, and there he scored his uh so far his first goal, um, or his first and only goal in this world cup. Um but I think that for Jamal, he is um one reason for why he is so consistent in his in his performance and why he is so good is his almost unshakable belief in himself. And I think that pressure actually plays in in uh in Yamal's favor. Uh and there is gonna be the most pressure um on him uh so far uh when it comes to to the national competition. Um he of course uh there is a there is a um a sort of uh secondary competition going on exactly between him and uh and Mbappé. Uh and I mean I mean it's basically a um yeah uh a classico on World Cup stage um with the most uh high-level players of both uh Real and Barcelona, of course, meeting on the pitch. Um so I think that uh that he will probably have his best performance so far in uh in the next match, um, because that's just uh the the conditions uh under which he performs, uh he performs best. And on the other side, of course, you have Mbappé, who had probably is probably in his best shape when it comes to uh to performing performance in uh in the uh the French uh French national team. He scored eight goals and three assists. Um so he he scored half of all French goals. Then um you have uh Bembele on the French side with five goals and two assists, and uh Olysee, of course, being the um uh the holding the record for for most assists with six in this World Cup so far. And when we when we look at both teams, I think that it's really the best offense against the best defense, um, with France having almost the best defense as well. I mean Spain conceded one goal, France conceded two, um, France scored 16 goals in total, um, versus uh the Spain's uh 11. And um and I think that it's extremely close. It's extremely close. Um ultimately the the weak point here is the defense of Spain, I think. And uh Spain is is very very aware of that, uh I hope so at least. And I think that they uh will try probably um either to to try to uh to put France uh behind on goals because that never happened to France in this uh to in this World Cup. So there's definitely a chance to to kind of shake up um the French psyche there. Um same goes, of course, for um uh for France, uh trying to score early against um against Spain. But most likely I see the game um actually going at least an extra time into extra time or actually on penalties because it's uh even for Mbappé and uh and uh Bazire uh Due and uh and Emile, it's gonna be extremely, extremely hard and painful to uh to effectively pierce the Spanish defense, uh which is the best in the world right now, just to um to repeat that point. Uh so I think that France has the slightly better chances, but I even I am uh not making any any predictions uh further further than that in favor of any team.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

That's very boring, Paul. Um so we're you're gonna go after extra time and potentially penalties, and you're not gonna go for one side or the other. Um Declan, do you have uh do you have a little inkling of uh which way it's gonna go?

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Um my gut tells me that France, just because they they've gone through the tournament and haven't really haven't they've shown signs that they can just absolutely turn it on and blow a team away. I think France will ultimately win it. It could go to uh extra time, it could go to penalties. But again, Spain have I I still think Spain have almost this a little bit of a voodoo over France, and if they can keep their game nice and slow and can control the tempo, particularly as Rodri and and if Pedri plays, um you know, Rodri's getting back to the form he showed 18 months two years ago, then Spain do well when they have that platform to control everything, uh, which they did against Belgium and Portugal, who are no mugs. But if France forced turnovers and stretched that pitch out, their whole system is built to do that. And Bakli and Dembele, who have both, as Paul said, scored multiple goals, um will probably win the game. Uh Chiumeni's fitness is very, very important to this as well. Uh, it seems like he's a bit of a doubt. But if if I had to put my neck on the chopping block, I'd say it's going to be a very, very tight game. I think it will probably go to overtime in the same way that you know the Spain-Portugal game went right to the end. Um, and then uh I think France will probably just pinch it either in extra time or on penalties.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

I think you're right about the pace of the game, um, because Spain will want to hold the ball and play it around and control the tempo and sort of take the sting out of the French. But if the French can press and really harry, and presumably this is going to be a um a tactic, something which Deschamps Didier Deschamps sort of um pushes on the French. And and they've definitely got that that sort of harrying capacity. If the French can really push um on the Spanish and force them into playing the ball quicker and steal the ball and then sort of start their own their own rapid moves, then I think it could it could be a very fraught afternoon for for the Spanish. Um I may be wrong, but I I think the French could I think the French again have the capacity to really do a number on on Spain. But uh I completely agree, Declan, and I understand where you're coming from that um that the Spanish in the recent past have have have uh seem to have at least a handle on how that on how the French the French play. So that's tomorrow's World Cup semi-final and then the biggie. John John, so therefore, what is your prediction? Um a a straightforward France uh France win. France to win uh without too much of a struggle, is my prediction.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

That's really all right. But your neck on the choppy block as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:39

Yep, there you go. None of this uh oh after extra time thing that both of you have done. France uh with a sort of 2-0 win or a 3-1. I can't even see the Spanish score. Oh god.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

That was completely unnecessary.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

I can't even see the Spanish scoring, is a phrase that uh I will pretend I never said.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

This has got nothing to do with your childhood being brought up in Gibraltar and not liking Spaniards.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

My auntie, you you've expanded now my disdain of Real Madrid to my disdain of all of Spain, which isn't entirely inaccurate, but uh it's no, it is it is pushing things a little bit. Can I just come back to one point before we get on to Argentina um England? The signing of Anthony Gordon by Barcelona, for Barcelona by 60 odd million before the World Cup was on the face of it a really surprising um uh signing. But I wonder also whether um, Declan, I mean, we were talking about uh Laminha Mal a minute ago, whether it's it's a signing made with him in mind because increasingly, as he becomes, I mean, he's already been for a couple of years, but he clearly is now a sort of a centerpiece for Barcelona, in which most sides that play Barcelona clearly focus on him. And uh a sort of a byproduct of that is that space is generated elsewhere. And Anthony Gordon, definitely with his with his space, we've seen some of that of this World Cup, has the capacity to really exploit um these sort of rapid transfers, rapid movements of the ball into into wide areas.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yes, and I I mean again, I uh I I I I can't I don't really understand how Barcelona have justified spending that amount of money on Anthony Gordon. He's a very decent player. The problem is he ha seems to have an inability to to pass or kick with his left foot, or take anybody off. Yeah, it's just again, my my my brother George is completely beside himself. He just doesn't he he originally didn't think Gordon should even be in the squad, and forever for whatever reason Thomas Tuchel continues to play him, Barcelona sees something in him. I've got nothing against him at all, but there's there really should be, as he's gone from being a Newcastle Anthony Gordon or an Everton Anthony Gordon to a Newcastle Anthony Gordon to a Barcelona Anthony Gordon, that you can see something absolutely incredibly special there, and there's times where he just sort of runs down blind alleys, there's times where he loses the ball, there's times where he passes it when he should have crossed it because he hasn't got the confidence and ability on his left foot. But when all is said and done, he's also created some great moments for England in this World Cup. So, you know, again, I'm still backing Thomas Tuchel that he's looking at he's predicting and looking at games um as as England moved through the tournament now to the semi-finals, and he, you know, in the same way that uh Dan Burner's come on and done a job, and uh Reese James has come on in midfield having done nothing for two weeks. Um I I actually had a note. I was telling some of both of my friends today, I had a note when I got got to bed last night thinking about the game and the experience in Miami, that Thomas Tuchel has something else special up his up his sleeve, and it could involve Marcus Rashford, it could involve Ivan Tony, it could involve Mayno. Because there's so many of the squad that are just uh I just don't get it why they're sort of happy just to be along as players back in the squad. So I I'm hoping that Thomas Tuchel has just got this, he's mapped everything out, they've done the analysis and they predicted this, this, and this as you get into the final, and that someone will become like a master playing cards in a game like the massive game against Argentina, which is going to be a very close tight game. But Ansi Gordon, again, there's a lot of people scratching their heads right now.

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Yeah, it was it was curious the other day when um in the match against Norway when Reese James came on, and I fully expected, as I think, probably 99.9% of others uh expected for him to go into the right back slot. But when he came into sort of central midfield as one of two holding midfielders, that was kind of unusual, not just because I mean and he had a blinder, right? You you pointed this out, Dexton. He had an incredible game, so I'm not criticizing that at all, but it's something which just was not on the cards at all. And I and I would have thought, going back to what you're saying about Kobe Mayne, that um that that would have been uh a uh a role for him to come into in that in that game against uh the Norwegians. But um, yeah, surprising decision by by Thomas Tuchel. The um I mean you've you've brought us nicely to how England are going to play against Argentina because we've, I think, seen basically the same England's setup to some extent, Paul, throughout the tournament, which is um to try and sort of be uh solid and compact, but also uh this uh this short, short, long thing that we keep hearing Thomas Duchel shout at the players to sort of try and draw uh defenders out and then move the balls, move the ball rapidly towards the uh the wing. And of course, he's got these um he's got a number of wingers that are interchangeable there from uh Sarka at uh uh Bukayosaka to Marcus Rashford to Anthony Gordon, of course, and uh Maduki is as well. So we know that that's the sort of likely setup, almost certain setup for the English, and we know equally that the Argentines are going to play much more through the through the center and are gonna sort of find Messi and then see what what magic he can um he can inspire from from there. Can you see any variations on that, or is that is that your expectation as well, Paul?

SPEAKER_00 35:38

No, I think that's absolutely uh absolutely the case as you as you just explained it. I mean, the the strength uh of both teams in the end when it comes to to actually winning matches is messy on the Argentina uh Argentinian side. Um and on the English side, you have Harry Kane and uh and Jude Bellingham. And I think this is going to be a game of uh of isolation. I think both teams will um will put great emphasis on containing um I mean, yeah, uh all these uh the these three players um if they are on the pitch, which is very much uh to be expected, of course. And I really believe that this is one of the, if not the most important factor um for who is eventually going through to the final. And I mean in the last game, uh in Argentina's last game against Switzerland, uh Switzerland, I would say, actually did a great job at um um at uh yeah sort of isolating Messi and uh uh taking any space from him which he could use to do his uh to do his magic. And uh yeah, that that's gonna be the uh one of the most important factors for me um for this game. Um and as you spoke, Declan, about Thomas Tuchel, um also from uh from a German perspective, um having had uh very great the greatest difficulties of uh of decades with with uh my uh or our national team coach can you give us a quick overview of how your uh perception and opinions on Thomas Tuchel evolved over the time um in this tournament so far?

SPEAKER_02 37:15

When the FA hired him, the it was a little bit controversial because unfortunately there's still this little England mentality uh where you know you have to have an English coach, you can't have a an international coach. And we've been down that road before with Capello and Sven. Uh personally, I I had no problem with Capello because I want England to win the World Cup whilst I'm alive. So I had no problem with that. He comes across as being uh a sort of straight shooter, he comes across based on his CV and resume as as being able to talk the talk but walk the walk. I like the fact that you know he got into that controversial discussion with the ITV reporter and then Jude Bellingham, you know, right in the heat of after the game, responded not necessarily the way you would the P the FAPA people would like them to do so. Um he seems to be uh again a real anglophile, he's adopted uh England. I'm pretty sure he he he lives there full time, and ultimately he'll go back and probably have another job in the Premier League. Um so I'm completely happy with him, and I'm completely happy with the way this tournament has gone so far. But at the end of the day, he's gonna be judged. The the Norway game was a massive game. If he had lost that game to Norway, he would be deemed a failure and his career would be in uh downward spiral. This is a magnificent, massive game based on the fact England and Argentina haven't played a proper serious game since uh the far as far as I remember, 2002 in uh that game in Sapporo. 2005, there was a friendly, but there was a friendly, that wasn't a serious game, John. The last time, and then also Messi Messi hasn't ever played against England, he's played again he's played against English teams multiple times, but he's never played against England, and then you throw in um the hand of God, you throw in the the uh Malvinas, the Falklands, and all that sort of stuff. Um it's got all of the ingredients to be an absolutely sensational game, and then on top of that, if for whatever reason England just shade it and Argentina lose, then this is Messi's last ever World Cup game. I don't see him coming back again in four years. So there's so many fantastic, incredible ingredients to this game, but I'm I'm still backing Thomas Tuchel, and um, although the bookies have got it, you know, it could go either way, very slim margins. I think Thomas Tuchel has got a he can pull a rabbit out of his hat, he's got something up his sleeve, which is why I made that note to myself, because at my age, if I think things, if I don't write them down, a bit like Elton John, I forget them.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Yeah, sorry, just just to follow up, um, because I think that um, of course, he's a he's a great coach, Thomas Tuchel, on a on a on technical level. Um, but he is, I mean, this is the third semifinal since 1966 uh that England is actually in. We shouldn't forget that, right? So I would say that Thomas Duchel is already um hugely uh accomplished um in uh in regards to to the English national team. And I think that what what England's biggest weakness always was um on aggregate, at least, is that they don't eventually don't believe that they can win, that they're some somehow doomed. And I think that that Thomas Tuchel was able to somehow um overcome this this English mental illness and and telling everybody and showing everybody that no, you actually can win against anybody, and uh and I think that's what's been the the edge about.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

But I also I also think Paul two to two uh comments on that. One, he is not English, so when all is said and done, he doesn't feel that pressure. He's a he's effectively a mercenary who's coming in, a very well-paid mercenary, and he doesn't have the the the med the mental baggage of I'm English and I'm I've got to you know get through to the final and then win the trophy, etc. etc. So that's to his advantage, and he's playing an absolute blinder there. I also think there's quite a few members of the squad who felt the pain of losing to Croatia in 2018 in Russia, who lost in a game in the Euros final against Italy, which they should have won, uh, who also lost against Spain quite convincingly in the um Olympic Stadium in Berlin in 2024. So that has a that has a merit to it that the core members, the experienced members of this team, and I'm talking particularly about uh John Stones, um Harry Kane, um Jordan Pickford, they are gonna carry that scar, that mental scar through that's gonna be a uh an extra thing that's gonna help them push on, hopefully through Argentina on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Yeah, this is the flip side of what you've just said, Paul, is that I think that um England have now reached at least the semi-finals in four of their last five major appearances. And they've got, I mean, it might not seem it in this particular squad, but they've got some of the best players in the world in in at their at their disposal. So the other way of looking at it is that this is the kind of the minimum of what they should be they should be achieving, and that they've been doing it now for for a number of tournaments. Now, of course, winning one of these tournaments is very, very difficult, and there's often as much luck uh as judgment in involved. But um, I think that the the change in mentality with this squad is they clearly now believe that they should be in the latter stages of the tournament, whether they end up whether they believe that they can be winners or not is is another is another question. Can I just ask you um for a quick prediction and then I want to just talk about the coaches uh briefly. Declan, what's your what's your prediction ahead of um the Argentina England game on Wednesday?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Um like I've said on the recent couple of podcasts, I think the um both teams are going to be mentally and physically not at their top levels. I think it's a massive advantage for both teams that at least they can go out there in an air conditioned stadium in Atlanta and and and play. I mean, Scellini's system tight tends to sort of Squeeze the life out of um the opponents in the middle of the field. Obviously, Messi has a free rule to do whatever he wants to do. But I think talking about Anthony Gordon, Saka, no Noni Maduweki has got absolutely slaughtered after the game in in Miami. Um that you know maybe someone like Rashford could start the game or impact the game because it's really weird and bizarre that he hasn't been playing in the last couple of games. Um so when all is said and done, I think it's gonna be a very tight game. But if if if Thomas Tuchel plays into Scalini's system and tries to do all this fancy touchy-touchy tappy-tappy stuff in midfield, that's gonna be a major detriment to England. If England can somehow exploit the wide areas, get behind the Argentine defence, the Argentinian defence, which I'm not overly impressed with. I don't think Romario and Martinez are the best defenders in the world. I don't think this the uh fullbacks are particularly good. That if they can get on behind, if if our boy Anthony Gordon has a good game, can actually cross the ball and get the ball into dangerous areas, then you've got two players who are on unbelievable form at the moment with Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham, who could who could um you know to turn the game and it could easily go England's way that way. But conversely, I also feel that Argentina, the fans are gonna be incredible, they have the um the ability to eke out wins. Messi is gonna be, in my opinion, he's he's gonna be quieter than normal, like he was in the game the other day against Switzerland, but he's still out there. I just think he's gonna be he his energy levels are gonna be low. So when all is said and done, I think it it it could go quite easily England's way, but I could also see it being a tight game and then again going to penalties after um you know a very exciting extra time. So I think Eagler will just shade it. The atmosphere is gonna be incredible. I do worry about a level of uh trouble in and around the stadium before the game, during the stadium, after the game, because the FIFA cannot control the sale of tickets. So you there's gonna be no segregation of fans at all, and there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of idiots on both sides who are gonna be creating issues. Um but when all of a sudden um uh although it's gonna be a tight game, I I think England will just shade it.

SPEAKER_03 46:37

Paul, your prediction in to try and be briefer than Declan was.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Yes, I will be. Um, I think based on past performances, I definitely see England go through. Also, not necessarily uh in in extra time. I think England can definitely manage to um overwhelm the not so strong Argentinian defense. I think that that's of course the biggest weak point uh of Argentina um there. And um on I mean England did a very good job, um, even though Haaland definitely was not in his best shape um in last game. Um but they definitely did a good job at um at containing him, and if they do the same to Messi, then Argentina will will struggle a lot. And um also I think that on um in regards to dynamics, I think that England actually has gotten um better and better. Uh there's still lots of room to for improvement, but I think Argentina has been just struggling, struggling the last three games constantly and got lucky in every game. And um and I just see a more consistent uh improvement on uh on the English side, while I don't see any improvement on the Argentinian side. Um more more um yeah, more more of uh just being just being lucky. So my uh my prediction is England will will win. And I'm I even tend to say quite quite decisively because they Argentina won the last World Cup. They are definitely hungry for another one, but England is just they now have have the chance again, and uh they don't want to um want to let that chance uh just go like this against an Argentina, which you don't, as an England, have to be afraid of.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

Yeah, it's it's an opportunity to sort of restructure, I guess, um footballing history and memory. This um it I think you're right. If if England can this it's a big if, but if England didn't shut down Messi, then then I think they could run out pretty convincing winners. But of course, if Messi does his thing, then it's very difficult to um I mean he is at his very best. Irresistible. Um Declan Paul, uh, without too much chat or discussion, I'm gonna give you the four coaches Leo Scaloni, Luis de la Fuente, Leo Scaloni, of course, Argentina, Luis de la Fuente, Spain, Thomas Tuchel, um England, and Didier Deschamps, France. Can you place them in order of uh of skill and magnitude? Last first, going up to the individual that you consider the best coach of the four, Paul, starting with you.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

All right. Um I would put uh Deschamps, I would put them uh put him first. Um then I would put John.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

I thought you said in reverse order. I did, but uh Paul's being uh obtuse, but never mind. Can you carry on Paul?

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Sorry. Um, yeah, of course. That's uh I okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

I was gonna say Deschamps last. That's controversial.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

So other way around rank four, Tuchel, three, Louis de la Fuente. Um I'm I'm a little bit uh uh two for a tire for on Scaloni and De la Fuente. Um Deschamps tops everything, and uh that should be should be enough. I don't have to um because it's very very hard. I would put maybe De La Fuente on two and Scaloni on three.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Okay, so Thomas Tuchel fourth, um Scaloni third, De la Fuente second, he said, and Didia Deschon first. Declan.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Uh I would based on accomplishments uh on the on the global international stage, I'd definitely put Thomas Tuchel uh fourth. Uh however, this time next week he'll be up there first or second. Um I would do uh Sculonia Fuentes joint second uh because one of them's won the last Euros and one of them's won the last World Cup, and Didier Deschamp, just because of his CV and his accomplishments and the fact he's brought together such an incredible French team. So there you go.

SPEAKER_03 50:54

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Is it um I mean because they're all such different coaches as well, is one of the reasons I'm asking this this question. I mean, um they the they're all different varieties of of coaches, if if you like. And um I think coming into the semifinals and then the finals, that's quite that's going to be an interesting talking point, which we can break down further as we review the the matches as well, because this is also a particular point at which I think when um we've seen it happen a little bit in some matches up until now, but it's also this is the point at which coaches really earn their their money, their wages, uh, in in terms of sort of thinking on the spot when things don't quite pan out and changes need to be uh need to be made. And um uh I mean to some extent Scaloni, I mean, he's he's incredible, but he's also not really that present as an Argentine coach. Argentina seems to sort of run themselves, I think, uh a little bit. And the other end of that is um the omnipresence of Didier Deschamps, who is who sort of, even though if he doesn't do anything, he seems to be front and centre of the uh the French side. But we we shall see. Any final uh comments, uh slash interruptions, slash epiphanies from either of you before we uh just uh John make it make it a rhetorical question.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

What is your rankings from four to one?

SPEAKER_03 52:15

Um I would also put Thomas Tuchel forth. I think um I England have done well. Uh they've done incredibly well, I think, to get to the semi-final, given their performances. Um and I just don't see that Thomas Tuchel has really significantly sort of changed much during the matches, although I would grant that the one time that the maybe the two times that we saw that were in the second half against Croatia with these attacking substitutions, which we haven't seen since, and then this um this really unusual reordering of in particular the midfield against um against Norway, which to some extent was sort of foisted on him by the illness and the injury to Declan Rice. And that's of course that's a big question ahead of the semi-finals as well, which we haven't touched on. So Thomas Tuco fourth, I would put Luis de la Fuente third. I've not got, even though he is uh he's a successful coach, I've not got that much time for him as an individual in terms of what he brings to uh to Spain. I would put Scaloni second and um and Didier Deschamp in in top. So I think we we pretty much all three of us agree with more or less the order of those.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Yeah, surprising, surprising. But now uh I also of course have one uh interruption, although it's not an interruption this time. Just um for us to realize um or that that we really live through historical football times, especially in terms um of uh of England and Argentina as well, um, because um after last uh or with with last uh with the last game, Bellingham is the first player since Diego Maradona in 1986 to score two goals in two consecutive knockout matches, and that as a midfielder, isn't that something?

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yeah, he's he's on fire, isn't he? Um it's um it's a sort of and to think that uh Thomas Tuchel was sort of toying with not including him in the in the squad, uh Jacqueline.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah, and going back to the Croatia game in in Dallas, uh the first half performance where we all agreed that there was some teacups thrown around that Thomas Tuchel laid it on the line to the team, but particularly to Bellingham, because he had that real matrix mentality that he would fall over and flop and try and get uh free kicks, and everyone was turning around laughing at him. The halftime conversation there uh you know, again, has has helped spur Bellingham on to have an incredible tournament. Hopefully, this isn't the peak of the tournament. Um, and and again, I still think Thomas Ducal's man management skills are up there in A plus land. So it's again plenty of talking points. That game against Croatia was a turning point for Bellingham. And I again I d I just don't see that he's gonna stop, you know. Compare Bellingham to an old Messi now. Um you know, Messi Messi is not gonna be able to compete. The two number tens are not gonna be able to compete with each other because sadly Messi is gonna be uh light on fuel and Bellingham is gonna be going at 110%. So let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 55:31

Yeah, absolutely. Uh let's uh tomorrow it's Spain against France, and then on Wednesday, England against Argentina too. Absolutely cracking, we hope, semi-finals, and uh look forward to to debriefing on France Spain at around this time uh tomorrow. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, Declan.

SPEAKER_00 55:49

Absolute pleasure, as always.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

My absolute pleasure as always, John. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, John.