DISCUSSION: Spain vs. France

To discuss the surprising Spain vs. France match, Paul Schmidt-Troschke & Jon Bonfiglio are joined by Declan Link, on the road to the Argentina vs. England semi-final in Atlanta, Georgia. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hi everyone, welcome back to World Cup Football, etc., on a day when I am feeling a little sheepish. Um, because after my prediction yesterday of uh potentially a straightforward win for France, we've had a message through from Gordon Massinho. Mr. Massinho, who is the closest thing to Al Capone that we have on World Cup football, uh, etc. It's impossible, it's important not to cross this path. And if we do, if we get something wrong, we are rapidly uh corrected. And um, so the message from Gordon, Mr. Massinho, reads John, always remember this equation. Rodri equals Mbappé and plus Membele plus Olys plus Barcola, Due, etc. Hmm, there we go. Uh Declared. Uh lucky though, I guess that you said that uh it would do the match would go to extra time, be very tight, and Spain would squeeze out winners in the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yes, I I guess I got another one right. I'm really quite proud of myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Very much a matter for interpretation there. But uh, you're on your way, you're on your way to the England match now. You're in Georgia, I understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Yeah, I'm uh just over halfway uh up to Atlanta. We had a lay start so that my boys could do their respective jobs today. And uh we're gonna stay about an hour outside of Atlanta and then get up early tomorrow and head into um the city centre. Uh get rid of the car and then have a good fun day. Hopefully, finishing off with uh a big celebration in the evening.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

No predictions today, I think, based on yesterday. Um, Declan, Spain's performance today against the French, I mean, got to be one of the performances of the tournament, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yes, I mean I was watching uh the ITV coverage from the UK, and in the studio afterwards, Gary Neville, uh Roy Keane and uh uh Patrick Vieira were all sitting there stunned because they all had predicted, like uh U2 had uh miserably uh predicted, that France would win and win, you know, they chain it. So uh everyone was so impressed with with uh Spain's uh uh uh game today. I mean it was it was pretty, you know, they dictated a tempo, they seemed to exploit defensive weaknesses, and uh their their tactical game plan was executed flawlessly, and that was on a day where I don't think France really turned up. And listening to some of the other French experts in different studios around the world afterwards, they they were really quite disappointed that France didn't really turn up today.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

Yeah, and um we sort of highlighted the fact that uh the the centre of the pitch, very obviously control for the centre was going to focus on this sort of this this um this I guess sort of fight for space between Rodery and I know one of your favorite players, uh Paul Chirmani for the for the French, and it was it was just surprisingly one-sided, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, it was uh a complete surprise. Um, first of all, hi hi Declan. Hi John. I'm I'm stunned as well. And uh I was waiting the whole game when when the moment would come that France uh realizes that they're actually playing a semi-final. Um because uh the I don't know where this came from. I mean, France played against formidable opponents already um in this tournament, of course, not not against uh the likes of Spain, and but I mean they played against Morocco, they played uh against uh against Senegal, they played against Norway. Um and and and this this today was just from right from the get-go, um the Spain was able to completely, as you said, dictate the momentum, how the how and where the game uh was was going. And they were just so much more intelligent in in the whole thing. Um I mean if you if you look at um at French creativity, it what basically was not really existent today. Um and uh yeah the duel we predicted between uh between Mbappé and Lamigamal is it's very clear who who won that game today. And I would say that um that the the the biggest difference between between the French performance and and the Spain and the Spanish performance was that Spain is just one team. So eventually, in the end, um France actually I would say failed at uh um where lots of uh lots of commentators predicted France would fail, and that is that France has a tendency. I mean, if you look at the team, they are stacked with the biggest egos you can find, uh for righteous reasons, uh don't get me wrong, um, but the whole team is just stacked with these egos. And um, I think that was where Spain um just showed that that they are actually one unit and they don't care at all about individual performances. And uh by by viewing everything like that, actually every single, almost every single Spanish player um performed dramatically good today. Um I think how how almost nobody would have would have expected it. And I mean, um Mia Culpa, I also said that uh that this game will be hard fought, uh hard fought, and uh will go into extra time, maybe maybe penalty shootout, nothing at all. And um, and I mean the the penalty um was of course very very important um in the in the mid-20s, uh 20th minutes. And uh from then on it was basically almost clear if you look at the bully, uh looked at the at the the body language from the French players that they are not here to win this game today.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Yeah, because we said we said that John, can I just interrupt? I'd love your thoughts on the penalty, because it it seems like for some people it was very controversial and shouldn't have been awarded because he handballed it, whereas other people seem to think that uh it was a fairly, fairly normal penalty, uh, which our friend Oyathabal converted quite nicely. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Well, the I thought it was an incredible penalty uh that uh goes right back to what we were saying about in that in the series about different uh roles, uh Declan. It was almost a classic, uh classically taken penalty. I I always think with penalties, with decisions, it's worth looking at it the other way around. If it wasn't given, what would the perspective be? And I just think it was um it was such a clear strike on uh uh Lamal that um it would be very, very difficult not to give something like that, Paul.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think that um that this this penalty actually is is a perfect description of um of the whole uh French uh let's say uh psychological state at this game, because um I think it was uh uh Lucas Dinier who um who kicked uh Yamal there, um just the right um on the border uh inside of the of the penalty box. And he just did not realize that Yamal was there. And I think that that that pretty pretty much perfectly summarizes um uh the French problem. They just didn't know where where the Spanish players, everybody of them, is going to be in the next couple of seconds. And um and and that was the edge. Spain was just um so much better when it came to to passing combinations, but yeah, that that's that was the penalty. I think it was definitely a clear penalty. It was in the penalty box. Um, Linier didn't kick the ball, um, just just hit Jamal. And uh and beautiful from Lamal, of course, to um to yeah, kind of sneak his way um to him and and not not uh not getting getting noticed.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

Just uh um just picking up on your point about egos, Paul. Uh I mean my perspective is I think it's difficult to to I mean you it's something you might have said about some different sides that some of these French players um are engaged in, but I I've not seen any uh real sort of evidence of uh French individualistic egos through this um through this World Cup. And it's one of the things that we've been constantly saying about them, about how they um they they they also have played as a team throughout throughout. I think um I would maybe just extend your thought a little bit into the fact that there's something, and we touched on this a little bit uh and yesterday, and Declan, you mentioned it in particular. There's something about the Spanish setup and how the Spanish play that just seems to diminish the French, to to make them sort of splinter into individuals, again, not necessarily egos, but individuals, that makes it difficult for them to sort of to come together as an opposing uh team force. Because this the the they at times the French today, Declan just seems ragged, which is not anything we've seen this uh at any point this tournament.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Yeah, I mean Spain seemed like they they did what every everyone knows Spain can do in this World Cup, which was they they sort of controlled the possession and and dictated the whole tempo of the game. And and ultimately they they they neutralized Francis' um the the ball into to Killian Mbappe. And interestingly enough, also it seemed like that they've they targeted uh relentlessly Lucas Dinha on the left hand side. So I know that PSG have been sniffing around him. That might not happen now, that deal. But uh, yeah, I mean it was just a dominating performance. And I and I must admit, I've had this discussion with you guys and a few others. You know, the the the Spanish midfield, the ball possession is incredible, but but but but um fair praise does need to go out in particular to uh Pedro Porro and uh Marco Carrella because both of them for their respective club teams are fairly average players, whereas they seem to raise their game massively for Spain, and then you know, Gordon's mate Rodery, you know, he seems to have come back and realize the type of form he had uh 18 months, two years ago. So, you know, at the end of the day, their resolute defense, Spain's resolute defense, definitely helped completely shut down the the um the French four attackers. So yeah, you have to doff your cap to Spain, and you know, we were hoping that uh France wouldn't win, hoping that England win tomorrow. Uh, I'm not sure that Spain's gonna necessarily be any easier.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

No, and um and all three of us put in our little um sort of chart of the the coaches yesterday, all three of us put Didier Deschamps in at the top of the of the four. And we've also mentioned before how the French nation is kind of pretty suspicious of him as a coach, and that's gonna only get worse now. I wonder what's gonna happen to to him after this tournament because it didn't, you know, something we've said about coaches generally is that when when things aren't going right, you earn your money when things aren't going right on the pitch in terms of acting in the moment and make change making change happen. And um and Paul Deschamp just did he seemed he seemed clu I mean, I had really hesitate to say this about him because he's he's one of the world's great coaches, but he seemed to have no idea how to counteract the Spanish domination of the match today.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, I think that uh that Spain uh I mean has proved itself to be uh the the kryptonite of this French team. And I think you could see a little bit of it already in the in the game against Paraguay, that France really um is used to getting the lead quite early on. I mean, they never fell back, um, never conceded a goal before before scoring one. Um that definitely um kind of uh hurt the the French psyche today, and and they're just not used to things not working out. You you really have to say that. If you look at their uh at the last um, let's say 20 games, um, when everything's going great, they play great, they play as a team, but as soon as there are issues, um France shows to have a very low, so in my opinion, surprisingly low frustration tolerance. And I mean that is really uh an area where uh where the coach's attitude is very important. And if you see um your coach in in that state, um also physically very very visible today, um, and not being able to help you to give you new directions, uh, and and uh that and Deschamps didn't seem to keep trying, he was uh lots of time just uh sat on the bench or stood kind of uh um hypothetically uh at the side of the pitch, and and uh yeah, as you said, was was kind of it was kind of clueless, and um, and I definitely uh didn't expect that. And I think that um it would be wise for France to to now, and also wise for him to close this chapter, it was extremely successful, and just let things um that new things develop out of this. Um, because I think that this is a potentially a big dent in in the whole um in the whole French uh French national team.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah, definitely a top-tier footballing nation as we've uh we've seen that they've uh reached the World Cup semi-finals. John, can you hear me? Sorry, just the the Yeah, yeah. Let me just briefly say about the French um have now reached World Cup semi-finals on eight separate occasions. Uh the only side that has more World Cup semi-final appearances is um is is Germany. But Declan, carry on.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

I was just gonna say that you were talking about Didier Deschamps, as far as far as I'm pretty sure this is the case, this was always gonna be his last World Cup tournament. And it's even Thierry Henry uh in speaking with Rebecca Lowe on the Fox coverage, uh said that basically it's all and it's all set up now for Zinadenzain to take over.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah, um Zinadinzidan, Zinadin Zidane, tomato tomato.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Um, don't call John, John, don't call me out because you called him um uh uh Lamal, Yamin Lamal earlier on. Listen back at what you called him.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

As soon as I said that, because I I was about to name him, and then I got um the tongue twister. This is the effect you have on me. It's like a virus. Um, I got the Y and the L the wrong way around because now I can't even personally I can't even remember which the correct way around is. Uh my brain is soup thanks to uh a 45 minutes spent with you every day. I'm definitely I'm definitely blaming you on this one.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

You thought you got away with that one. Sorry, my friend.

SPEAKER_03 15:35

So Zinedine Zidane uh for the French national side. What an appointment that um uh that would be. I mean, I guess there's nobody else really on the horizon, is there, Paul?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I'm I'm not uh I'm not too sure. I mean uh Zinedine Zidane, um I think it's a it's a good time for him um to to step into this role um because he is at a stage in his career where a nice long-term commitment, I think, suits him suits him very well. And uh and this should definitely be uh um a long-term commitment to be a national team coach is a completely different thing to being a club coach. And um, and I mean French legend, so uh why why not? And uh I mean the team is basically if not basically the team is already set up, so he doesn't have to do um um yeah, build his build his own team. But what this team obviously needs are lots of new ideas for lots of different circumstances, and Didier Deschamps in this tournament um did not seem to uh to have any solutions for um for these uh for the for the issues uh we've we've spoken about in regards to this national team. Um so uh good luck, Zidane, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Yeah, uh let's just call him Zizu, and then we can't mess it up. Yes. Um the uh uh I mean whoever gets through between Argentina and England definitely faces a massively stiff task in the final against this Spanish side, which is now completely firing it. It's gonna be it's gonna be a struggle for either of those sides to to try and remove the sort of the agency of of possession and domination from that Spanish side in them in the final. Declan, presumably you are massively looking forward to a uh a crunch match between these two old foes.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yes, I'm I'm very excited. I mean, it's uh it's just incredible that uh, as we were saying last night, really over the last 25 years or so, you know, they've only the Argentina and and England have managed to either intentionally or accidentally give each other a massive swerve. You know, you had that game, famous game in in 98 in Senetian when Beckham was sent off. You had the famous game in Sapporo where I was very fortunate to be there in the inside dome in northern Japan, and then they had a game in Switzerland, and um that's it. You know, so Messi could have played in that game, but apparently he was suspended because he got sent off the game before. So the mere fact that Messi hasn't played against England ever in his career is just incredible, and there's so many talking points more moving into the game tomorrow, and then obviously we'll have a lot of talking points directly after the game because there's so much potential for so much interesting stuff to go on. So it's a game of historic proportions. I know a lot of people who are mortgaging their houses, um, selling their kidneys, selling their lungs, just to get there and get tickets. Uh so uh let's see what happens tomorrow. But I'm definitely excited.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Yeah, you can you can always tell when something isn't just a sport, I can always tell when something isn't just a sports occasion because normally for sports stuff, of course. I mean, um obviously I cover the the World Cup for track radio, and um I still get, even though I can't do anything for talk sport at the moment, I still get requests from from them. But as soon as something transcends sport, then it's other more newsy stations that come in and ask me to come on and comment about stuff. And that's been the last sort of 24-36 hours, there's been loads of other non-sports radio stations asking me to sort of update from the Argentine perspective, from this being sort of a high risk match, and a variety of um of other things. If um if there is trouble, Declan, can you ask your uh your youngsters, please, the next Link generation, to take some photos of the uh of the Argentines uh uh doffing you, um doing you doing you in. Uh I did it, maybe some slow motion footage of um sort of uh kidney punches and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah, thank you, John. I appreciate that. I really feel the love there, but I'm too quick nowadays. I'll be able to run away from them.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah, um I I'd like to see that on video.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

I do actually um I do actually like the speculation uh that Argentina are gonna change their formation to play three at the back. So they're gonna bring in Otta Mendy and then play two two wing backs. Uh so I quite like the fact they're bringing in the elder statesman um Ottomendy tomorrow, if that is indeed true. But I also um I also know they're gonna be reaching deep into their bat their little bag of dirty tricks. Uh so uh again, I'm rubbing my hands gleefully waiting for tomorrow's game, and I appreciate the fact you wanted me to get beaten up.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah, a good little um early match sending off of Harry Kane for uh with with some kind of um Argentine sort of uh incentivizing or play acting around. But with with VAR these days, obviously it's much harder. But um, yeah, let's hope that none of that happens because that that kind of stuff is only gonna inflame tension. Let's hope it all gets resolved in a pretty clear-cut way on the pitch and what uh we all hope is a really incredible match uh tomorrow. Can't wait, of course, at this end. Uh either. Uh I'm gonna say goodbye now, slowly in case anybody has anything to say.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

Almost, uh of course, I have something to say. Um, just as a little bit of uh um fatalistic foreshadowing, maybe. Um that this uh definitely went under uh most people's radar because the we have the World Cup right now, and um and youth football is uh is of course not um um doesn't have such a big audience, but both in the under-19 European championships for uh the men's teams, as well as in the under-19 uh European championships for the women's teams, Spain won. Um in the last uh two weeks. Well uh no, in the last week were both finals, both played, by the way, against Germany. And I think this shows the uh again the the biggest part of the Spanish um success recipe, and that is just their their youth academies. It's uh it's amazing. They um uh both both teams are the most successful um youth teams in history, and uh that is just uh something I think that many other countries have to put much more uh much more emphasis on. Um so my point of course is that then the the men's national team will probably win the World Cup as well. Let's see. Um but uh lastly, lastly, Dacton, I would be uh it would be very interesting to me. What team would uh would you have preferred to play against? Spain or France?

SPEAKER_02 22:22

I still think Spain would have been would have been RR or would have been the better team to play against. I just think you know France had a really bad day at the office today. And on top of that, you know, if you looked at the stats from the game, the the actual possession was fairly similar, but France had more shots than Spain. Uh they had more shots on goal than Spain, they had seven to one corners, uh Spain had four saves, fouls conceded were fairly, fairly uh uh level of both both teams. So Spain played very economically and and and and extremely well today. But again, every team can have a bad day at the office. And I don't want to put the cart in front of the horse. I want to get through tomorrow's game and uh and then hopefully you know enjoy the the uh the game on Sunday in New York. So um obviously my my my thoughts are that England we're gonna win, but just slightly slightly get past Argentina. But I do think it's gonna be a true historical spectacle tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Yeah, little doubt. Thanks, uh thanks, Paul. Dekton, have a good evening. Um hope it all goes well, and we'll touch base this time uh this well. This we're gonna do a recording first, aren't we? Tomorrow, uh ahead of the Argentina England game, looking at the Argentine perspective, and then of course, after the game, we will also come together and um and break everything down. Thank you, thank you both.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Thank you, Paul.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Good night.