DISCUSSION: England vs. Argentina

In the absence of Declan Link, Paul Schmidt-Troschke & Jon Bonfiglio give a first reaction and analysis of the Argentina vs. England semi-final. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Hello everyone. Welcome back to World Cup Football, etc. After that semifinal, understandably, Declan Link is not joining us tonight. He has already sent us through some live on the ground reaction, which we heard in the previous podcast episode uploaded just a couple of hours ago. But for the purposes of this one, this is a bit of sort of um cold post-match analysis from Paul Schmidt Troschke and myself, John Bonfiglio. Hello, Paul. Hello, John. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 1:01

I am actually doing not so good because uh the game today, um, even though, of course, uh, as a German, you usually wish England only the worst, as well to uh as to the French, of course, and the Spanish as well, and the Italians and everybody uh in the United States. And the Swiss, uh the Austrians, yeah, but they're not really a competition, right? Uh that's uh Norwegians are are becoming dangerous, yes. But um no, it was really, really disappointing because I think that England could have won this game, and um, due to decisions and uh and English mental illness in the end, I think um they they were not able to um to first have a good game plan and then follow through with the game plan, or if they notice, oh our game plan does not work, then let's change it and let's try something else. Um which uh which only happened um I think seven minutes before the end of uh of overtime.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I mean, look, bringing Ivan Tony on with five minutes to go for his first minutes in the World Cup. I mean, that just smacks of desperation. I don't know what I'm doing. Panic.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

And yeah, I think uh true, truly panic. And um so yeah, that that's that's that's how how I'm feeling, and and and uh a few of the reasons why I'm uh why I'm feeling not not so good because I really didn't like Argentina um to win this uh to win this match. I mean, of course, we now have a legendary final coming up, um a new um first between Spain and Argentina. And uh uh lovely to to see them battle out who who gets the trophy. And uh I I uh I have my favorite there already. Um but I must say again, our predictions, John count for nothing, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

They count for absolutely nothing. Anything that um certainly that I say, the opposite seems to seems to come to pass. Listen, just in terms of the final, I mean not that we want to linger on this because you've got plenty to discuss just with the semifinal, but it's gonna be the first time that um uh the Copa America champions, of course, Argentina, meet the European champions, of course, Spain, for the for the World Cup. So that's gonna be interesting in and of itself. But let's come to the to the match itself. Uh so I thought that for 55 minutes, England had a game plan. England were on balance, the better side, you know, not by much. Um, but it was notable how little Messi got the ball um during that period. England, I thought, created, I mean, maybe not so much in the first half. There was an absence of sort of real um sort of closed call challenges, but England were definitely um generating sort of space and opportunities around Argentina. Um and um and they look pretty good. And and I thought also that the um one of the one of the things which has marked out, I think, this campaign for Thomas Tuchel is what when you don't trust a coach, you call tinkering, and when you do trust a coach, you call squad rotation. And there's been a lot of that, of course. Um he's kept the spine of Jordan Pickford and uh Declan Rice uh where where where where possible, and um and Anderson, and of course, um Bellingham and Kane. But around that, everybody's moved. Uh, and I thought that um Morgan Rogers coming on on the right today actually gave England a lot more control and threat than we had seen before with Madweki and um and Bukayosaka as well. And on the left, of course, um we we saw what we always see from Anthony Gordon, which is almost you don't see him run, he kind of glides at pace, he covers ground so quickly, and something which we hadn't seen from Anthony Gordon, which was a really a well-taken goal from a pass by Morgan Rogers. So up until that point, I thought England were probably the best that they'd played in this World Cup.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely agree. Um, I mean, I I really liked the um, at least at the beginning, the try of um of pressing really deep, and that uh that led to to one or two not really dangerous situations, but at least it showed that this tactic can be um can be successful. Um I think that this pressing was eventually um actually a mistake because uh you could really see that um that the players just lost um a lot of uh a lot of energy um uh very early on in the game, which then um came to bite them uh in the end.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Um so you think so you think they were tired at the end? Or because my reading of that more is that it was the the the substitutions that were made pushed England back into a fully different I mean the first one of course was when Anthony Gordon was was taken off, um, because it just removed all possible outlets for them. And one of the, I mean, we've we've um and I certainly am not, I don't think that Anthony Gordon is a it's a complete player by any stretch of the imagination, but one of the things he definitely gives you is especially with his speed, is an outlet. And England just had had after minute 55 with the decisions and specifically after the second, after the the hydration break, halfway through the second half, they just had they had no options to just release, they had no way to release pressure.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

No, not not at all. And um that was I mean let's let's go a little bit more on the uh on the kind of um technical game strategy level. Because I think that's eventually uh what what lost England this game today. Argentina has shown that two goals are not enough to lead against Argentina, uh because both times, I mean, in Egypt was actually leading, um, and uh and Argentina still managed to score three um and preventing going into uh into extra time. Um of course Cape Word uh again, two goals were not enough. So for and I don't know where exactly this comes from. Maybe it's maybe it's arrogance of Tuchel that he thought okay, now we are the team, my boys can actually uh break Argentina's offense and frustrate them so much that one goal is actually uh is actually enough. And um I thought that was the central mistake.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

I mean, as as everybody and what a mistake, what a mistake. So I mean, you call it um you call it arrogance. I would say it's kind of football illiteracy. Um, because look, coaches can't just coach or think tactically. Of course, they're paid to do that, but they also have to recognize, which I think is basically what you're saying, they have to recognize storylines. And all teams have storylines. And you know, when you talk about um what you refer to as English mental illness, that's a particular kind of storyline which has existed for with England for a long period of time. But this Argentina side definitely has a storyline, and it's an irresistible storyline, and exactly what it's exactly what you're saying about their reaction against Cape Verde, their reaction against um Egypt and Egypt, and now not understanding that, not seeing that, that that is the case against England, that a goal scored against the Argentines is basically part of the narrative, part of how they play this game, this sort of um, this almost sort of uh this preordained national narrative that they're driving forward with um with Messi, which I've sort of referred to before as a kind of divine justification, which draws all of Argentine history together, it draws Diego Maradona, it draws the Falklands, it draws um the Malvinas uh together. Um the the Argentines, because of this, this is not a football game. These are not football game matches for the Argentines. This is overcoming adversary through Argentine history. And so they don't recognize or allow defeat. And going behind is part of that story, especially, especially against the perceived imperialist colonialist power, England. And for Thomas Tuchel not to have seen that, not to recognize that, I just think is football illiteracy.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

I I would go uh even a little a little bit further because um he is of course not English, so he is probably not so familiar with uh with this conflict, which would be um uh quite quite the farce, um, I must say, as an English coach. Um and football illiteracy, uh you can definitely call it like that, but Thomas Tuchel is known, and I think that's also a big part of the of the success he he had, is that he and the problems he has as well. And yes, of course, and the problems he he is a very unconventional guy in uh when it comes to everything, right? From from nomination to um to game plans to um to how yeah. Uh basically the whole man is is a very unique being in in the whole football sphere. There's no nobody you can compare him to, uh, who's coming uh close to him at all. Um, and uh that that's of course um uh kind of a gambling strategy, right? It's uh um the state he he increases the stakes by making very um controversial decisions, and in his experience or in his mind, uh he he probably um feels that uh most of the time it works out for him, and uh the few times as it does not, it's just the cost of doing business here. And um, I mean what a cost he paid today, right? Um, I think that um that his future is uh we will speak about that with with Declan tomorrow, probably, but I think his future uh in England is uh is questionable to um to say the least. And one thing, um, when you bring up the the the whole political level with uh Malvinas, I mean, uh which uh um uh the which is uh of called uh of course called the forklands uh in um in English. Um you could feel that especially in the first 20 minutes, I think 11 fouls were were only in the in the first quarter.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

It was nasty, wasn't it? It was nasty and niggly, and it wasn't just football.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah, I'm I'm a bit all all over the place today, but um um but I think that uh yeah back to the football illiteracy. Um I think it's also history uh illiteracy on um on Thomas Douglas' part because because this this this works against every other team, but not against Argentina, because there's such a special relationship or whatever between sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Look, and and and I agree with you, right? So it's also historical literacy, but I also think from a just from a footballing perspective, you also don't need to know anything about the Falklands. And of course, you know, the the Argentine side, especially when it comes to England, it's and the sense of national identity for Argent for Argentines, it's indivisible from the Falklands. It is just part of what it of um of what being Argentine is, and um and it's just there, and to pretend that it isn't is just stupid. But if you just look at it from a footballing perspective, there's enough evidence, not even thinking about the political component, throughout this World Cup of how the Argentine players regard Leo Messi. I'm gonna use the wordplay here, the sort of messianic nature of um of Messi's participation and how he is regarded, and this sort of this the perception from Argentine players that winning this World Cup is a fitting end and tribute, a necessary, almost a uh uh divinely intervened end to this spectacular, unique career that is Leo Messi's. And again, that is part of the narrative at this World Cup, and adversity is central to that too. So even forgetting history, you you can't miss how this Argentina side have been playing, um, conceding goals and then going right up against it and scoring and inviting them to do that is just, I mean, you know, as we saw today, asking for trouble.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, today I would say this was also one of the best Argentina matches um we've seen, at least um the the from the 55th minutes uh minute onwards. And you still see why Messi um is still an exceptional player even at his age, and what what um what's the difference between him and the Cristiano Ronaldo? Because he's still very, very consistent in his performance and his crosses are just um just lethal on his right foot, how he lifted it.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Uh I mean he knew exactly where it was that I mean, lesser players, average players, would have crossed it and it would have gone too fast, or it would have uh hit an intervening leg or something like that. But that precision cross on his weaker, uh on his weak, I mean, you know, there is such a thing as a weaker foot for for for Messi, uh, but it was it was just uh you know a master work.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah. And uh let's see if if God will uh will carry Argentina through to the title. But I think that um that as a Spain, you you really have a especially as a Spain with with their um playing strategy so far, we'll have uh we'll have a big issue um in in the final with uh with the way Argentina uh Argentina has played so far.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah, and the Spanish have a Catholic god as well, so there's gonna be a face-off between uh between Catholic Catholic gods there. Obviously, what we've learned today is that the Protestant God is definitely a lesser god.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yes, yes, that is uh that is that is clear by now. And um uh John, are you um uh maybe we can talk about that that later as well, um in a preview between uh um about the political relationship between Argentina and Spain, because I guess there's also some colonial baggage um somewhere um in the past. But it's it's really what you said about the um the adversity. Um it's it's almost like Argentina needs to concede before they they I don't know, before they they need it as a as a push to then um kind of get get their uh their whole potential actually actually on the pitch. And um so actually scoring not too late against Argentina um is as has shown today, again, is quite dangerous. Um better try to keep it equal and try to to get a goal in in the I don't know 80th minute or some somewhere there, because then Argentina will have uh will not have enough time. I mean they probably still would be able to.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Um Yeah, the story the story that they tell themselves, the story that they believe is that they're doing this against all odds and that they need to they need to have their backs against the wall, and that's when they um they fully believe that they're going to to to pull um a rabbit out of a hat right at the right at the end. And and they've done that. And it's amazing because I mean um in the previous um podcast, Cord Musinho said that they're a good side, they are a really good side, but they're not a World Cup winning side. This Argentina team have got to the final on the on the basis of, yeah, Leo Messi, uh, of course, but more than that, just sheer willpower and blind belief in the fact that they're gonna they're gonna do it. That's that's the tide that they are riding. And as I've said many times before, you just can't analyze that rationally uh on a football pitch. I mean, and again, you need to understand that the storyline is more important than what than the footballing tactics and the setup on a football pitch. You need to push back against and dismantle that national storyline more than you need to dismantle the footballing side.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yes, and you also need to dismantle the narrative Argentina um puts on you as an opposing team, right? Because I think that this uh this goes both ways, both that that Argentina plays against all odds, scores always in the last minutes. And that, of course, if that happens now three times in a row, teams who will play against Argentina, and I think England fell victim, they know that exactly, and they are afraid of that. It's basically Argentina is able to instill some kind of um fatalism into their opponents and making them almost like um like uh hypnotize them in a way that they will they they they say to that to their opponents, you will concede two goals in 10 minutes. You you just will. You can not you can't do anything against that. And and that happened uh the the last uh three three games. And and uh yeah, and England, especially with the sixty years of Hurt, were very prone to fall uh to fall victim um to um yeah, to in in in a psychological war against uh against Argentina, which just also doesn't seem to have any fear. They uh they they they don't seem to be to be to be worried about anything. And um, yeah, again, probably the the relationship to God um play plays a big role in there. Um belief as a lot of lots of people have relationships to God.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

It's it's it is it's a relationship to a particular kind of God that they believe is on it's it's really interesting that they they believe that there is a kind of a moral power, a moral imperative to their storyline. And and of course, there is a kind of a the godlike component there, but the godlike component there. I mean, there's there's of course these cliches about you know football and religion and belief and faith and all that kind of stuff. But it but we we're seeing it on the pitch with with Argentina and and the gods, the Argentine gods is you know this is not the standard Catholic god. Of course, we have Diego Armando Maradona is the at the apex of Argentine gods, and now as of the last World Cup, um Leo Leo Messi is that figure as well. There is just that belief that everything pushes forward there, and uh I just don't think it can be overstated. Just looking at specifically the timing of Argentina's winners in the knockout rounds, against Cape Verde, 111th minute, against Egypt, Egypt 92nd minute in stoppage time, against Switzerland, 112th minute, against England, 92nd minute of stoppage time. They haven't led after 90 minutes of any knockout game, but they're in the final.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, and that is the story of uh of this World Cup. And I think that um to bring up this uh this topic nobody wants to hear anything about anymore, um, but the effing hydration breaks. I think that that really really also uh played played a role here. Um that uh especially in the last quarter of the game, Argentina was just able to completely dominate um everything and completely decide where where the game's going. And um uh yeah, by now I must say, not uh not a fan of those at all. Um would be lovely.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

I mean, I think they probably still would have won. But but I I totally take your point that look, Argentina were the better side today when you measure it all together. They absolutely deserve to go through. Um, but um, I mean, and there's obviously a discussion point there about how much did Argentina win and how much did England lose, but you you're absolutely right that what the hydration break halfway through the second half gave Argentina was a moment to come together and go, right, we've got a quarter last quarter, let's go, boys. This is our time, right? It's a gathering, it's a moment of gathering ahead of the final push, which was uh, I mean, I'm not even sure England had five percent possession during that last quarter. Yeah, that uh it was absolutely, absolutely amazing that um it was like watching them in a boxing match, somebody just being smashed on the ropes again and again and again and just waiting for them to go down.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, yeah. And then you had Harry Kane, which was uh one or two times uh still trying to push into the Argentine half, but nobody followed him.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

And um there was nobody to follow him.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean you still had this.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Where was the setup? Where was this the structure? I mean, it was and it takes us right back to, I know. The in the previous podcast, there were references to Bobby Robson in 19 uh 90. But yeah, I mean the Fabio Capello was in the crowd today, and um it also uh Thomas Tuchel's decision making there, which again I would put down to football, I would refer to as football illiteracy. We've we've seen England do this before so many times, where they score and then they sit back and they think that that's going to be enough. And it just it never is. The only time one of the few times there has been enough is against Mexico the Azteca, but Mexico is not Argentina, um, with its uh with its heritage, its history, and um and it's just it's unstoppable, their unstoppable drive.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah, and I think that that the the only way in which England could have won this game today, and I really mean that, is by a kind of um PSG uh Bayern Munich uh Champions League semi-final style, because Argentina does not have the strongest defense. Um I think they conceded exactly the same number of goals as England did uh with six to um before before this uh the semifinal. And you just gotta score and score and score. And I mean, for for for all it was worth, the English defense was not too bad, right? And uh, I mean there were very lucky moments. Um and especially Pickford. I mean, he really gave a performance today. Um, and uh he's probably one of the one of the uh the few players which uh I don't know could uh uh privately for his career profit from this game because he he really really performed today.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

He's definitely a good shot stopper, isn't he? I I I'm relatively unconvinced about his his sort of control of the box, but as a shot stopper, he's right there.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And uh and so yeah, England should have just scored. I mean, they showed that they can score in the 55th minute, so why not try to score two uh uh one more or two more? Um just to just to be just to be sure. And um, and I think that uh that this eventually uh uh broke broke their back. And uh and um it's it's it's quite astonishing if you if you listen to um I hope you only listen to our commentary uh commentary, of course, to our listeners, but if you look for commentary across the board, everybody is just uh a unisonal voice saying, Why did you just completely let Argentina dictate the game after the 55th minute?

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah, there's there's a difference between making changes where there's a difference between making changes where you sort of um you go defensive, but then you decide to play on the counter-attack and you leave your options there to be able to exploit that space, that inevitable space that is going to be generated. But just to go into just to fully retreat, especially with the kind of the of course messy skills, but also Argentina have a lot of really great forward players too. Um, and and the the thing you mentioned about Pickford as well. I mean, there was that period of time where Pickford made sort of, I think it was two, three, four world-class saves. And on the one hand, you're thinking, is this gonna, is this are these gonna be the sort of standout moments that save England? But then you think, well, it's you can't just keep doing that again and again and again. And that's exactly what we saw eventually. That's just the law of averages when you're receiving that many top quality shots and headers is you can't just keep them out um i indefinitely. And that was that was the way of it. And yeah, I mean, I think I do think it is difficult. Well, as you say, we'll talk more about this with Deflin tomorrow. Um let's say that Thomas Tuchel keeps his job. Um, I think it could get toxic very, very quickly with him in in the next cycle, because I I just don't think that there is any trust in his decision making. When you look at the coldly at the um how England has performed during this World Cup, getting to the world to the World Cup final, World Cup semi-final, sorry, is undoubtedly a sort of a feather in your cap. It's a good performance, but on the one hand, they should have gone further. Uh on the other hand, the second point I would make there is that uh it's pretty uncontroversial, I think, to say that uh one of the reasons that they got so as as far as they did was not down to Thomas Tuchel, but was to do with Harry Kane and Jude Allingham saving them multiple times. And then if you actually look at the matches in the cold light of day and the sort of the the setup and the responses that Thomas Tuchel engaged in through through the matches, I don't see that it was with the possible exception of um of the match against Mexico, I don't see that there was that there are really any significant uh interventions that Thomas Tuchel made which helped his side get as far into the tournament, as deep into the tournament as they did.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

No, no, and uh if you actually look back at the um at the performances, um I mean of course it was a great start against Croatia, um, but then I think that you have to win against Ghana, you have to win against uh Panama um in a more decisive manner. Uh just every game basically showed that there's not uh enough consistent um first consistent performance, um, maybe also will in the end, I don't know, but um to to be worthy of uh of winning the title. And uh yeah, it that's what Argentina has, right? Determination, we're gonna win this thing, and um, and there's something um something backing this. And um, I mean uh in my opinion, uh of course it in regards to to the whole Falklands um and and other other islands uh there in the ocean, uh conflict, no love lost with England, right? Why why should they be why should they be there, right? Um and uh yeah and uh this uh I mean Mexico uh I mean not Mexico, Argentina definitely um put another um another step or another uh chapter into the story of the long redemption arc against uh against Great Britain and uh England specifically. So and that that is, I mean the the off the more often you lose against the team, the more likely it is that you will lose again, just because you have this if you and especially if you're not psychologically strong, right? Which England just is not. There is always this fear, as you as you've said, that for for almost I mean decades by now, um this this point of failure of we score a goal or we are one goal ahead, and that's gonna be enough um because we are afraid to whatever. Um so yeah, uh disappointing today, but the final is going to be a very, very interesting game, John. And uh also now we're gonna get actually the great match between France and England, of course, not in the format.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, because we were talking about that, weren't we? About uh hitting by the France England final. Now we're gonna get it in the third, fourth place uh playoff, which is gonna be uh yeah, hell of a circus.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Exactly. And um uh I I don't know uh uh if if Declan's gonna be there. Um I mean he's he's definitely not a not a sore loser. Um, but uh let's see, do you do you know if he if he's gonna be there?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

I don't know. I mean uh um he's definitely not gonna be the final now, which is probably just as well because um you know making it up to New York for um for that uh transit across the New Jersey and then on that pitch and stuff. I mean I guess there's a minor part of him that is not missing that, but of course he would have loved to have to have got up there and um yeah and and seen that seen that match. It's definitely a wasted opportunity, I think, for for England. Um and I and just as a kind of final point, I don't really think you can fault the players uh at any point during this this this tournament. I thought given uh the squad, given how they were sort of set up in terms of formation and and tactically, um you know, I think um I don't think this is a vintage England squad and for them to get to a semi-final. I mean they've got um two, maybe three, four world-class players, but then I think the sort of the quality drops off pretty quickly after that. Um but then you know, is Spain any different, really? Is Argentina any different? I mean, none of these have um sort of world world 11s in their squad. Well, the nearest thing we we had to that was the French, and look what happened to them.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yeah, and I think that one one thing which which always um makes me a little bit uh nervous when it comes to teams uh having chances of of winning the World Cup is that if you if you look at any team basically which have won over the last at least in the years I'm alive, it will it were always teams which were built up um over more than two years, and uh who maybe um won the Euros before, as in uh as in the case of Spain in 2008, um, or at least making the semifinals uh consecutively, um like Germany before 2014. And that was just not the case with England. The the people who were in the selection and who were on the pitch did not play too much together in in these formations, um, also not with this coach. So I think that um I think that the toxicity, especially with Thomas Tuchel, um, is is going to be uh an issue. Um, but same for same as for Germany, and I mean England is still in a much better position, but you have to have a longer horizon than oh, we are England, we have to win now, or we are Germany, we have great players, we have to win now. It it must be step by step and also communicated in in that way. Um otherwise it's it's not gonna uh we're not gonna see England uh win win anything, I think, in the in the near or mid-future. It it must be mid-to-long-term planning.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah, it needs to be um act and repeat, act and repeat, act and repeat. You can't just hope to to come in and um and do this on a on a whim on a on a on a in any given sort of um on any given day. And I think even though um, you know, some of the players shone today in terms of the different positions and the and the like, uh ultimately there was a lot of um tinkering, tinkering around, which um, you know, again, if you're deeply critical of Tucourt, you'd say, well, he at no point did he really know his best 11. Um I think uh potentially he would say, Well, look, it was all about keeping people fresh and giving people opportunities, but then you know that doesn't hold true with the absence of Kobe Mainu, not having seen any any action at all. Um, Ivan Tony, as we said right at the beginning of this piece, you know, coming on the last five minutes is just an embarrassment. I think, I mean, that's almost it's it's almost that decision more than anything else, even more than the tactical decision after the 55th minute, which it could be the dagger through the heart of um because you can't hopefully you can't hope to send somebody on with minutes to go for his first match in the semifinal and expect them to pull to pull something out, you know, out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Absolutely. And and one last thing, which uh which really even made me angry during the game because it was so obvious that this was just a mistake, was yeah, um, as soon as England got the ball um or uh got got a goal kick, Pickfoot just launched it into the Argentinian side, Argentina immediately gained possession and pressed again. Why don't you try to get time of the clock by just having possession? You don't have to uh try to score a goal, just possess, possess, possess. And everybody in this England squad, even though many people don't like the selection, um they know how to stand in a corner or whatever, just get time off the clock. Um many, many things where I just uh scratched, uh scratched my hat and um billions of the world scratched.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

We've seen this this England side hold possession way better than many um previous England sides through through history. I think um ball retention is not a um an obvious sort of criticism that you could give to this England side in the way that you you had in the past. And the thing I think also just again as a sort of final thought on the defensive decisions, technical decisions that were made. The thing is once you make those decisions, you that you can't. It's impossible to then change. If you did if you decide that you're gonna go into retreat, into siege mentality, that's it. That's the only gear. You can't shift gear beyond that at any point in the game. You are stuck with that. And to make that decision with 30 odd minutes of the match to go, you know, more than a third, a third or more than a third of the match, is just staggering.

SPEAKER_02 35:12

Yeah. Absolutely. Um and I think yeah, let's let's end it here and uh we're gonna have a similar discussion tomorrow um as well, and uh we'll probably um be at some point in the in the near or mid-future very annoyed by Dectron Link not being able to uh to get over it. Um very understandably so. Um but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

We'll see, we'll see how he how it all emerges, uh uh what kind of a head he emerges with tomorrow. Um as ever, Paul. Thanks uh thanks so much. Always really interesting. But uh yeah, one of those uh um it almost if you had had to pick a a uh almost a sort of a stereotypical storyline of how this match would go today, thinking about England and Argentina through history and what we've seen at this World Cup, it would have played out in exactly this way.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much, Tom, as well. Uh was still a pleasure, even though I was a little bit uh uh in a negative mood today. And uh yeah, speak to you tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

All right, take it.