SPECIAL INTERVIEW: Declan Link on England's World Cup Campaign

Paul Schmidt-Troschke in a special interview with Declan Link, looking at England's World Cup campaign, 24 hours after the defeat to Argentina. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:24

Hello and welcome to World Cup Football, etc., with me, Paul Schmidt Troschke. And today we have uh I think we've never done this before, it's a new format where I interview my fellow co-host Dacton Link. Of course, his specialty is he knows everything about the English team campaign and history. And today um we are going to take a closer look at the uh the before of the tournament, then everything concerning the actual campaign. And then we're also um gonna head a little bit into the future, and um we might get a get a peek at what's what's ahead for for England. Um, I mean, especially in regards to the personnel. England will continue or not continue to um to try to uh to get successes on the international football stage. Hello Declan. Um, did you get some recovery, both psychological and physiological, from yesterday's match?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yes, hi Paul. Uh lovely to talk to you uh uh the day after the uh afternoonslash night before. Yes, um completely batteries recharged, uh feeling uh very energetic, very different from uh the uh the feelings I had after the game yesterday, which came over, I'm sure, on our one of our earlier podcasts. But uh yeah, more than happy to uh to dissect uh the uh the the uh World Cup campaign for England and uh obviously give you my thoughts on uh where we're at now that we're playing in this massive uh third v fourth game in Miami on Saturday, which I'm completely giving a massive swerve to. I have no interest in it at all. Um so fire away. What are questions you have?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

So um, I mean, our listeners uh know that you um have been, I would say, the most optimistic one of us in regards to to the English team. Do you still would you still say that your optimism, um, especially before the World Cup and also going into the first games, um, was actually justified, or would you say that um there was maybe a little bit too too much hope? Um yeah, in in your um in your estimations of how how good the English team will actually do and about the the realistic chances, or do you think that um still think that your optimism was uh was justified?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, let me first uh start by saying I never have uh any doubts in my unwavering love of supporting the English national team. Uh that's what's always going to happen through thick and thin, uh, and whatever is thrown at you. Uh, you have to always support your team, and it's the same if it's a national team, if it's a club team, or if it's uh you know a kids team. You you you support them through and through. And when all is said and done, I've had a fantastic experience uh watching England with the uh the two World Cup uh warm-up games, one in Tampa and one in Orlando against New Lord, uh New Zealand and Costa Rica, and then obviously going through the qualifying stage, the uh group stages, the round of February two all through to yesterday. So my love of England is never unwaving. Um I feel that uh ultimately we weren't cheated by anyone yesterday by Argentina, but ultimately I feel a little bit cheated by Thomas Tugel and his tactics, but we'll get on to that in a second. I do feel that things could have easily played out differently and that England could be playing and should be playing Spain on Saturday in New York. Uh, that would be a completely one-off game. I still think Spain would have been the absolute favourites for that game, uh, particularly on the back of witnessing how good Spain were in the Olympic Stadium in Berlin in 2024 in the Euros final, where we were completely wiped off the field off the pitch. Um, but you know, when all is said and done, England did get to another semi-final. Um they they probably only played what I would call a good level of football in the second half against Croatia in the first 20 to 25 minutes. They played a plucky performance in Mexico City at the Azteca Stadium, and they played half decently against Argentina yesterday in Atlanta in the first half, uh, up until the goal, probably, up until Anthony Gordon's goal, and then I'm still in a complete daze as to what happened uh after Anthony Gordon's goal in the 55th minute, as to what really transpired then, and and ultimately, uh, and very sadly uh that that that lays at the uh at the door of the head coach of England, Thomas Tuchel.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yes, um very very understandable. I would also agree that um that England definitely um had a very realistic chance uh of going through to the final. Um but yeah, we all know how how that played out. Um one thing I I always put um put a lot of emphasis on, and I think it's uh I'm right to do that, is on team building and on time that it uh that it needs to build a team which actually can win uh can win the World Cup. Would you say that England had a squad which was enough of a um of a yeah of a unified team, of a team which which played enough together um to to have a realistic chance? Or do you think that um in regards to the next World Cup, the next Euros, um there needs to be a more fundamental emphasis on actually building a team, not to win the next campaign, not the next Euros, not the next World Cup, but just having this this focus on winning a World Cup, maybe with a with a longer time horizon? You know what I mean? Like maybe um um just take your time to to build the fundamentals and then build upon that, and that might not lead to successes in two or four years, but maybe in six or eight years. Um, do you think that that England did did enough of that, or um that um that this was one one of the um mistakes, or maybe uh glossed over a little bit?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

I feel that because again the feelings are fairly raw right right now, uh, when all is said and done, you know, Tuchel was brought in to do one job and one job only, which was to get to the final of the World Cup and to win the World Cup. And he failed miserably in the last third of the game against Argentina yesterday. Again, I always try and give uh anyone in life the benefit of the doubt, and I've been constantly giving Tuchel the benefit of the doubt throughout the qualifying campaign, throughout the uh build-up to the World Cup and the World Cup games. And he comes, he's a very good media guy, he definitely covers himself. Uh, but he also, if you look back in the history of what he says and what he actually does, he actually shoots himself in the foot on a regular basis. Um, I would I personally at this point, with my raw emotions, think that Thomas Tuchel should resign because he didn't accomplish what he was supposed to accomplish. Uh the problem is, is that you know the only alternatives that we or the only possibilities that we have at the moment uh from where the bookmakers are going is uh Pep Guardiola. Okay, why would Pep Guardiola take on England when he's gonna take a year off? Um Eddie Howe, uh Maurizio Pochettino, Gareth Southgate again, and Lee Carsley. So I don't think there's any chance getting Pep Guardiola. Eddie Howe is the only English possible candidate. Poch is coming off what was deemed ultimately a decent performance in the United States. However, you know, there's a de a bad taste in in the the mouths of the US uh administration with the US men's team and the supporters uh because of the way it all ended against Belgium. Uh Lee Carsley is a run-of-the-mill, good FA coach, and Gareth Southgate apparently today is being rumored with taking the US national team coach. So to that was a long-winded way, Paul, to get to to answer your question is I think the root cause of the problem for England, and some people will say, Well done, Evelyn, you've done well, you've got to a semi-final, but I'm over that. I've I'm done. I'm I've seen England get to semi-finals, I've seen England get to finals and not have the ability to get it over the line. The problem, the problem that the the the other side of the coin is seeing Thomas Tuchel, he has now got the experience of coaching in an actual World Cup tournament. Would he, if he stays on and the FA are backing him 100%, but that's because the people that chose him are the people who are backing him 100%. Would um would Tuchel be a better manager for the Euros in 2028 because of this experience? The the problem I see is twofold. One, his judgment on the original squad that he picked was by most people who know football, not the right squad. He left some of his best players behind. He's now trying to make out that England are not a ball-playing, ball possession type of team. Well, that's the tactics that he decided to employ was to go direct, and it was embarrassing yesterday. They were just kicking the ball out whenever they could, and there was no outlet, there was no one to pass it to up front to hold the ball up. So when the tactics changed and England decided to retreat into this shell for the last 30 minutes or so, there wasn't there was there was nothing there. And then, secondly, his dis you know his just his general decision making throughout the tournament with regards to the players that he a put into the squad and b selected for starting positions, and secondly, um critical substitutions is as mind-bogging, mind-boggling as far as I'm concerned. If you look at the minutes on the team, the most minutes played obviously were uh Jordan Pickford. Um, Harry Kane played the second number of minutes, and unfortunately, we've seen it before with Harry Kane labouring around, going back into midfield, going back into defense. He played 563 minutes, and you have to have a manager that's strong enough to say to Harry Kane, okay, Harry, off you go. You're getting too old now. We need a different option. Um, you know, uh Conza, Anderson, Bellingham, Gahey, Nick O'Reilly, they all played substantial minutes. Depplin Rice was struggling with a bug. Anthony Gordon had some good games, some bad games. Madoueki did himself no favours. Um, Saka was definitely injured for this tournament, and you know, he should have been in the squad, but there was just too much pressure on him. John Stones did great. Reese James missed two and a half weeks, Jed Spence did fine. But there were other players in the squad. Marcus Rashford only played 176 minutes, Morgan Rogers only played 157 minutes, Eze played only 130 minutes, Kwanzaa because of his suspension, played 117 minutes. Then the new folklore hero Dan Byrne played 24 minutes for God's sake and ended up at centre forward yesterday. Jordan Henderson, who was the team mum, you know, got injured in Mexico with his uh wrist. Ollie Watkins only played six minutes, and then you had Ivan Tony coming on for a little runaround at the end of the game yesterday, and Kobe Mainu and and Choabar, who who took over from uh Livermento, um, did not did not contribute at all, as did the other two goalkeepers. So to long-winded response, Paul. I do apologize, PST, but a lot of the decision making that Thomas Tuchel made is very, very questionable. You can't hide behind this fact that England are not a ball-playing, ball possession team, and not to have picked players who can do that, which is what he didn't do.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

As you as you as you raised the point of uh of uh very hard to uh to understand um uh decisions uh which are very hard, still very hard to understand, uh, which he made in um in the semi-final. Uh let's try to understand it. And um, I mean you you could I think even see Marcus Rashford uh shortly before Gordon scored um being on the sidelines uh waiting to be substituted in. Um and then after Gordon um after Gordon scored, it was basically uh what was it a 5-3? They fell back into a 5-3-2 almost immediately, um, with no um with no desire to score another goal, not at all. There were two or three moments when Harry Kane tried to push forward, but um that that of course didn't didn't uh end up uh resulting in anything because he wasn't followed by anybody. And and one of the most mysterious things to me yesterday, um I think that uh the the percentage, the ball ball possession percentage of England after the 51st uh 55th minute till the end was 12 percent. Um, I've never seen a lower number in in my whole life. And and then I saw Jordan Pickford as soon as he got a goal kick, just launching the ball as wide as possible into the Argentinian team so that the Argentinians um don't have uh any any uh any time to spend to just take the ball and attack again and again and again and again. Um, what is your what do you think went on in Thomas Tuchel's head um in regards to to his decisions, especially after Gordon scored?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

I I I'm still shaking my hand, Paul. My head's Paul. I don't I I really do not understand it. I can't comprehend it. Uh basically, you know, if you watched Argentina play in in the game against Cape Verde, if you watched them play against Egypt, both both of them, and again, I I I again I the the way this is worked out with Spain and Argentina playing each other, and you know, hats off to Cape Verde. They are they are they've they tied uh both Spain and Argentina, so you know that's an incredible accomplishment. But basically, in the game, again, I I don't get it because Thomas Tuchel is trying to blame the players that the players were the ones who sort of retreated into the shell and they went on, you know, a formation of like a 5-4-1, but with Harry Kane going back and playing in midfield and at some points at left back, it was really a five-and-five sitting back protecting the penalty box. Um, so I think he's completely culpable for that. He's trying to deflect and he's trying to point the finger. Um, but you know, if you looked at the the games against Switzerland, you saw the game against Egypt, so you saw the game against Cape Verde. You can't hand the initiative to Argentina and the late point of the game and later point of the game, because there were three proven templates where they had turned the game around late in the game, and you have to be on the front foot, you have to you you have to have an outlet pass, you have to have some pace to get in behind the Argentine defenders, particularly the two central defenders, because they were both on yellow cards, for God's sake, and that was for a non-long time, and so I he either froze or he got so discombobulated that he couldn't think reasonably as to what they needed to do, which is again why I think at the end of the day, Tuchel has failed on the responsibility he had, which was to get England into the final and put themselves in position to win the World Cup.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah, but but that that seems to be uh to be a theme, at least from uh from the the game before the quarterfinal, where there was this this weird um it wasn't even an interaction, but it was uh first Tuchel saying that um that uh England basically uh that yeah that they could have played better, but it was the players' fault. And then you had Bellingham um visibly disagreeing with him, um and and uh and kind of uh yeah being being annoyed at at Tuchel's comments uh there. Um and uh yeah this this stroke me as um as as very I uh just um uh weird and and and not not coach-like. I mean as a coach, your number one goal always must be um to have a good atmosphere, um, because every everything builds on that, a good understanding um of the players and between the players, and back to the back to the game. As uh when you play against Argentina, uh in this World Cup at least, then yeah, I think your number one objective must be to score as many goals as you can because you know that you can't defend against Argentina eventually and and keep a clean sheet, uh so you just have to score. Score, score, score. I said yesterday already, and I will say it again. I think that um that the the the the PSG Bayern Munich semi-final in the Champions League that that would would have probably been the the appropriate strategy for uh for for um for England there, just trying to score, and um, and I mean England showed that uh it was a very nice goal from Gordon, perfectly executed, very nice cross, very precise. Um I would also say at the right uh right time in the game, and um, and then uh I think the the most uh incredible change in in dynamics uh happened I've ever seen, I've ever seen in um in a World Cup for sure, um, but also I think in football in general. Um it was extremely stark. And I mean we will we will analyze this um uh probably for for years to come because uh it's it's still a big mystery, and maybe in um in Mr. Tuchut's memoirs in in a couple of uh decades we will then um finally uh solve solve this uh this this football mystery. But now let's move on.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Well let me just let me just say as well, Paul. I mean, the it was one thing that England retreated to basically defend for the last third of the game their you know the the last third, if not the just the penalty box. But you know, when I was a coach, I was I I'm a forward, but I understand what it's like. The mentality is a forward. If someone puts you under pressure, if they close you down, then you you're you're you're less likely to get a shot off, you're less likely to get a cross. And if you and from our vantage point at the far end, um with all the England fans, we were probably 45 rows up, so we had a good vantage point of both goals, and we could see how the players were developing. Not only did England retreat back to you know within sort of 22 yards of the goal, and and to be fair to Pickfoot, Pickford played out of his skin. Everyone's slagging him off all the time, but he made some great saves. Uh, we we we uh were lucky because they hit the post twice. But when we were getting uh what when we were defending the box for whatever reason, if it was if it was on Tuchel's directive or if it was on um the players themselves, it was on them. Once they were back in position, they didn't get out to the ball, they didn't really put the Argentinians under pressure. So it was it was literally only a matter of time before uh Argentina got the equalizer, and then it looked like it was going to go into um overtime or extra time, and um, and then Martinez scored with what was a fantastic cross from uh uh Lionel Messi and uh a fantastic header, but the whole point of sticking someone like Dan Byrne on was to stop that sort of stuff. So again, you just sort of throw your arms up and you still it a lot of it just doesn't make any sense the way that last third of the game went.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yes, um, yeah, as I said, I think there's there's uh uh you can uh f philosophize and uh and and talk about this game for for ages and scratch your head for ages as well. Um but now looking into the future of the English national team, um first uh you said already that uh of course you wish Tuchel to go. Um but do you think that there is any realistic chance that um that Tuchel actually can stay?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

I don't think so because the FA have publicly backed Tuchel after the defeat, and he has again he's pulled a blinder because he played the Manchester United card. He he he basically played it out after the great qualifying campaign that Manchester United were. were interested in him and just like Capello did back in uh the build-up to 2010 he's managed to wangle himself a new contract through to the Euros in 2028. So the bigger picture I think the F it really comes down to whether or not Tuchel himself is embarrassed about that last third of the game or whether or not the the the the the the the fan pressure will make him decide to go because I like him I think he's a he's an anglophile I think he says all the right things he's got a great CV and resume but at the end of the day like I said he was paid five million quid to get the job done and he hasn't done it. That that was a clear metric that he didn't meet he said the target when he started back in whenever it was was explicitly the world cup and nothing else and that's the biggest one in football by his own framing failing in the semi-final is a missed objective not a partial success so he by his own words has failed so to answer your question I'd like to hope that he will do the right thing resign or the FA who hired him will say you know what Thomas it hasn't worked out. The big problem like I said earlier on at the sounds uh the risk of sound like a broken record is who are the alternatives you know if I if I if I had a a blank piece of paper in front of me and could sort of magically come up with a perfect world scenario I would uh possibly give the job to Lee Carsley for a year in a in a sort of stand-in type of capacity get through the nation's league games and then I would at the same time approach Pep Guardiola and say Pep take a year off go to New York go to wherever and then come back for the Euros and be our uh England team manager now you might think I'm um sprinkling pixie dust and you know on some type of wacky backy or something that that would happen but you have to ask the question to Pep Guardiola if it doesn't happen then you know all the people from the England uh supporters who bang on and on and on about an English uh coach Eddie Howe is the only one that I would give it to as the other one so um I think Lee Cars V temporary uh Pep Guardiola after a year and if those two don't those two that scenario doesn't work out then Eddie Howe comes in uh and then we go back to an English coach who who still has questionable uh qualifications as far as far as I'm concerned all right um and when it comes to players um who do you think do you think Harry Kane still has a has a future at least for um for a next world cup in this uh in this team or do you think that um uh that some some people we saw on the pitch um this uh this world cup will uh that this will be um eventually the last time we we have seen these these persons play uh play for england I think there's two gaping um very obvious issues that England need to deal with one is the goalkeeping situation you know Jordan Pickford you know has his critics has his supporters I thought he played very well in the game against Argentina yesterday however he's not getting younger and there's there's really no proper heir apparent to him I don't I'm not sold myself on um Dean Henderson from Crystal Palace James Trafford you know they say he's the heir apparent but he's not playing regularly so that's an issue and then obviously any team uh you know any team anywhere in the world has to have a strong um you know sense of of players through the middle of the team and the other place is Harry Kane as you mentioned and and I'm I'm and I'm sorry I love Harry Kane I think he's done a fantastic job for England over the years there's a there's a school of thought that says he doesn't actually deliver in the biggest games I'm not sure if that's true or not but the reality is he plays differently and is more successful for Bayern Munich than he ever was uh for e for England in many respects because sometimes his numbers are skewed by the fact he takes penalties and I don't think he'll be there in two years let alone four years so if you go through this this squad Jordan Pickford major question mark Harry Kane major question mark um Ezri Conza fantastic Elliott Anderson fantastic Jude Bellingham fantastic gahe absolutely great all good age all good all with good clubs all great players Nico Riley fantastic Declan Rice you know Arteta needs to stop playing him as much as he is and give him some some time so he doesn't get worn out by the time he's 25 26 years old but it's sensation Anthony Gordon has his detractors but he he had some good games some bad games but as you said he scored a decent goal Madweki should be nowhere near the inward national team the same thing with Saka he was obviously injured throughout and they were nursing him which is why he didn't play a minute last night and we could have done with him John Stone's had a great tournament but he's too old now Reese James' injury um uh has injuries all the time so love him respect him think he'd be a great player but the problem is a bit of a glass dole Jed Spence to be fair should it be nowhere near the England squad but Thomas Tuchel you know backed him and he and he did well particularly that tackle last night in the second half I don't know if you remember that one Paul Rashford has got to sort out his personal life and his professional career with his clubs. Morgan Rogers he's definitely a keeper Ezie seems to be a bit starstruck when he's on the international stage Kwanzaa he's he's a fine person who should still be around Dan Byrne get rid of Jordan Henderson get rid Ollie Watkins too old Ivan Tony too old I think that I personally would have played him a bit more to give Harry Kane a rest but Ivan Tony's dumb now I got no idea why Kobe Mainu wasn't played at all because I think he's a very decent player.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

So he's one for the future as well Trevor Chalaber you know again just an average professional in the Premier League who came in because um Thomas Tuco didn't want to bring in someone who would uh potentially uh upset the apple cart so there's plenty of room for some of the up upcoming uh emerging talent in in England and there's a lot of that coming along but um they have two major question marks about the goalkeeper and the number nine because there's no error parent particularly for Harry Kane right now all of the possible contenders are in my opinion slightly average not really international players and all around the the age of 30 years old yeah I think that's a that's a very very good um note to stop on um it was very very clear very unapologetic um uh yeah evaluation of the whole of the whole English squad and I think for um for coaches the English team is a very very interesting case to take on because you have loads of talent um but you have by right now also loads of wiggle room when it comes to um to appointing new players to develop a new team um so that that could be a or can be a very um a very nice challenge for for people like like pep guardiola who uh who mastered so many challenges um already in his life uh so let's see maybe in a year we get the we get the note and I mean I would I would love him uh for him to coach England um definitely and um yeah so uh in the end uh thank you so much Declan and uh so you are not uh you're not watching the round the the the the bronze medal game I will definitely be watching both games this weekend but there's absolutely no way I'm going down to Miami you know having having seen eight england games in the last uh four weeks it's definitely been a bit of a stamina test uh not only to my body my psychology but also my bank account um and as I said at the beginning of the podcast I have maximum respect for uh the England fans who were there through thick and thin um I I respect the the uh the the way everyone behaved in Atlanta because there was a a certain level of provocation um particularly after the game and it seemed in general that everyone behaved themselves quite well apart from maybe one or two exceptions and I do um and I do think uh sadly that um you know this World Cup is going to look back on as as being a fantastic World Cup despite FIFA and the fact that all they're doing is screwing the uh the real fans they're exploiting the capitalistic side of um of uh what's going on in uh in football at the moment and I do hope that as we as we move on to the next world cup in 2030 that we that we go backwards and and get back to real principles of what this game is all about and why people love it yes absolutely um just a just a very very quick answer which was your favorite game all in all which was your best game experience this world cup are you talking about me the games I specifically went to or are you talking about the world cup in general yes no you and uh and locations and the games you specifically went to uh the the definitely the worst one was watching uh that in that horrible stadium in New York uh which is where the final will be played on Sunday watching England play Panama and later in to beat Panama uh Boston was okay but it was just hard work getting out to the stadium uh Atlanta was fantastic I really enjoyed Atlanta you know because if you can stay downtown you can literally walk to the stadium within 20 25 minutes um and then Dallas was superb right at the start the Croatia game not only was the game a decent game particularly in the first 25 minutes of the second half but the stadium is sensational so we we were we were fortunate to although I said what a stamina test it was it was like a bit of a marathon we were very fortunate to still be located you know the furthest west we went was Texas the furthest north we north we went was Massachusetts and then obviously we had a couple of games that were in driving distance which minimized our our costs um you know if we were zigzagging and crisscross crisscrossing around the country going out to Seattle and LA and uh Santa Clara uh and those places then we would have had a completely different perspective so the net net was I'd say Atlanta and Dallas were by far the best locations venues the best game um obviously was the Mexico game in the Azteca in Mexico City um and if that if I had the choice if I was Johnny's running's running hand I would have chosen either Dallas Atlanta or the Azteca as the location for the final not that godforsaken stadium in New York New Jersey yes absolutely uh I I think uh everybody everybody would agree uh would agree on that all right uh thank you so much Declan um yeah uh it's uh it's gonna be an interesting time where the English national team is going um I I wish you all all the best and still um a good recovery you might be you might be in a in the denial stage by now um and uh you will you will get to the accepting stage um I I know as a as a German I know I know that that whole story very well lived through it numerous times I mean you of course uh even even more often um so thank you so much Declan and uh speak to you tomorrow my pleasure Paul as you know we're all football fans and uh we all go through this and you go through the lows to enjoy the highs I'm just worried that another four years are going to go on and it's gonna be another 64 years of hurt before 2030 and the the the World Cups are running out for me