DISCUSSION: Victory for Football as Spain Win World Cup

After a final of incredible disparities, Link, Schmidt-Troschke & Bonfiglio return to analyze the match and its implications. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:24

We are recording.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

Is that the beginning of the recording? Is that you saying we are recording? I think it's quite a nice novel entry, isn't it? Bit of a surprise for for th for everyone out there. And um because uh one of the things first things that brings us in quite nicely is that this is one of the last recordings that we're gonna do, uh, if not the last recording, as the World Cup football, etc., because we are now gonna be fully transitioning, we're losing the cup, which honestly, from a personal perspective, I'm quite grateful for. I mean, it's been a great World Cup, but I'm happy that it's that it's over. And now we're gonna be world football, etc. So don't be surprised, listeners, dear listeners, uh, dear listeners from across the globe and Israel, if suddenly you see that uh that we're not World Cup football, etc., it is still us. You'll still hear our voices. It's just that we are transitioning to world football, etc. And of course, there's plenty of material uh that we will be covering from the little known corners of the globe, and we'll be sharing some of that new structure and uh and new sort of areas of focus with you in in due course. So, World Cup football, etc. I've just you can't see me, of course, but I'm doing good old Catholic sign of the cross as we say farewell to that and uh moving across to world football, etc. But we have more important things to discuss and uh to discuss those tonight, of course, on the uh on the night of the World Cup final in Spain's 1-0 victory, thank the good lord over Argentina. We have Declan Link. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Hello, John, how are you? Good to uh talk to you, and uh I'm uh sorry to see the back of World Cup football, etc. Uh, but I I know what you mean because uh Love, when I first met you, you looked like you're about 32 years old on the back of this 104-game marathon. You now look like you're about 83 years old, so your body is ready for a rest.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

I look like any one of innumerable characters from the Lord of the Rings. Uh, I think, yes, it has been fairly exhausting. Um, and of course, with the different sort of time time zones and stuff to sort of keep on top of in terms of uh the the broadcasting. But speaking to you guys has been a real highlight, and it's obviously going to continue to be a highlight.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

You know what, you know what, JV? Old um Uncle Gianni, he must be knackered as well because he's been flying and he must have gone to about 102 of the games.

SPEAKER_04 2:57

I mean, he also looked like a Lord of the Rings character, I think, today. But let's come to him in a minute. And that little chuckle, well, of course, we already heard Paul Shamitroshka, who at the top of the piece said we are recording in his inimitable voice, but that little chuckle also tells us that uh he is to life. Hello, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Hello, Declan, hello, John. Football justice is restored, and uh at least today we we got proof that the the football god, in fact, is real and he is a just being.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Well, because we were discussing, because obviously he's he's a Catholic God on either side of the Argentine-Spain debate, but um, yeah, he definitely is uh well let's let's assume for today that uh God, which isn't that controversial I think to say, because um, of course, the government of Pedro Sanchez in Spain is is a left-wing government. So I'm gonna look back over history and see which countries, which winds have come under left-wing uh regimes, right wing regimes, autocracies, and all that kind of stuff, because that might be interesting. But uh anyway, yeah, today's we can uh I mean it maybe we're scrubbing around, but um we can we can pretend that it was a um if if God had a part to play in it, then maybe he plumped for uh a sort of social welfare system and states. But Declan, I've got an existential question to start uh the the recording with tonight, and it is it does relate to our friends uh as you call him, Johnny Infantino, as uh most of the rest of the world refers to him as Gianni Infantino or the Angel of Death. Um, when, if ever, is it okay to wear a dark suit and white pumps? Uh for those of you who aren't um American, uh we're referring to trainers who are English listeners. So yeah, I I think you're exactly the right person, Declan, uh given your sort of fashion style icon um reputation to guide us through this thorny topic.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

I actually do at uh my advanced age try and be quite trendy in my dress when I go to business functions. And if I don't know if you know this, but uh when we had the uh uh event at the LAM prior to the uh Inglo-Mexico game, I was uh from the waist downwards dressed just like uh Gianni Infantino, Uncle Johnny. And um I I think he's uh he's got an image there that he's he's maintained and he and he actually looks okay. I mean Donald Trump, you know, looked like Donald Trump. Uh Gianni Infantino looks uh you know fairly fairly uh modern and trendy, and uh I I can carry that look myself, no problem whatsoever.

SPEAKER_04 5:37

Was that sound Paul falling off his chair as you said that Gianni Infantino's look was okay? Uh Paul, can you give us uh hopefully a uh uh an alternative perspective to the Toby?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Are you really are you really looking for fashion advice from Paul Schmidt Trotsky?

SPEAKER_04 5:55

I mean, I think the three of us do have do carry very different aesthetics, but let's just see what Paul has to say for himself on the matter of suits, suits, and white pumps, uh, and then we can move on from there.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Uh horrible, uh in my opinion. Um it uh I mean I uh as a German it's always a little bit painful because um that was one uh one of the um the the fashion ways in which uh the conservatives try to be uh try to be trendy to wear suits, but the white kicks, the white pumps. And um no, I'm I'm I'm personally not a great fan. If you have uh if you wear um if you wear a a suit, you should wear the uh the proper accompanying footwear as well. And uh Jenny and Fandino, of course, uh he definitely had to wear a suit. I mean he he often often wears a suit, but especially if he's with Trump, right? Um but no Johnny, uh please please don't do that again.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Did you um you know John has a wardrobe? Paul, you know John has a wardrobe with 20 Hawaiian shirts or different shades of yellow, and that's all he ever wears.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Well, do you know what? I actually have two crumple shirts on my desk in front of me. I have because uh I've been doing uh as we've discussed, a lot of uh I mean, luckily a lot of the radio stuff is just radio, but sometimes they want a freaking invisual thing. So I have a couple of crumple shirts which I reckon are about as smart as uh as I've got that I can just whip on if suddenly a producer says, Can we have you in vision, please? And then I'll do a quick change in front of the camera. But yes, I mean you're not a million miles away from the from the true one.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

I'm just sticking up, just sticking up for Gianni because at least he tries. You two don't bother trying. Sticking up for Gianni, Jesus Christ. Let's uh also on the same vein, sticking up for Gianni. What about when he tried to usher Donald off the stage like three different times today, and he finally succeeded?

SPEAKER_04 7:51

It was genius. I'm sure most listeners have seen this, but um, there's a number of genius points to this whole thing. The first is, of course, um, I mean, just give me a minute to walk through is uh, of course, they were, I mean, ordinarily a president doesn't do this kind of stuff, and Gianni Infantino sort of would walk on with a World Cup trophy. But because Donald Trump was there, they both had to be had sort of equal um pride of place. So the first thing that I thought was completely ridiculous was them both equally carrying the World Cup trophy hand in hand to then uh hand it over. Then the next thing was when, as you say, um Donald Trump then went across to the other side of the of the stage for the photograph, Gianni Infantino suddenly realizes that he is on the wrong side of the stage and he does this little sort of skippy light dance across to try and get to Donald Trump before the the sort of the fireworks and the cry goes out from the Spanish side. And then, as you say, Declan, then there's the bit where he tries to pull Donald Trump out of the out of the photo, but Donald Trump doesn't seem to be uh he doesn't seem to be completely aware of anything that's going on and just sort of stands there um and and stays in the middle of the in the middle of the frame. And then eventually, on about the fourth attempt, Gianni Infantino manages to sort of pull him across to one side, but all completely uh yeah uh ridiculous and hobbit hobbity to continue the uh the the uh the Lord of the Rings um uh Tolkien-esque images. But let's come to the to the game. Uh Declan, this was billed as the first time, well, it was billed as a number of things, but um, but it in in particular, I think it was uh uh underscored by the fact that this was the first time ever that the European champion Spain uh had ever played uh against uh the Copa America South America's equivalent of the European champions, in this case Argentina, and we were hoping, though we we discussed it a little bit prior to this, it's sort of a relative imbalance, we were hoping for a great match. Was it did it live up to billing?

SPEAKER_03 9:51

I don't I mean, I we we were, as you say, John, we were all hoping for a great match. Uh we were all hoping for a two or three-nil uh win for um our friends from Spain. Uh I can you just uh cut the recording for a second because the dog is banging on my door and I think she wants to go outside. Yeah, hold on one second, let me just go and sort of because otherwise it's gonna be a nightmare.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Obviously, Paul, we won't cut this at all. We'll just keep it in. No. And we can talk about Declan's creaky door, which is kind of quite spooky, I think. Um do you do you not?

SPEAKER_01 10:27

I mean, especially uh especially um considering our um quite late recording times and and and this noise in in the in the not in the middle of the night, but uh in the night, uh like squeaking through the house, uh yeah, must definitely be be disturbing or a little bit of uh uh nightmare inducing, maybe to the people.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

Do yeah, for Germans as regards squeaky doors, is it something that uh it that sort of means that the world isn't working and they must be hinges must be oiled immediately, or is it something you can just kind of live with and ignore?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

No, are you kidding? I mean, there's uh WD 40 uh in every household, and uh as soon as something squeaks, or um when when your key is not going completely smoothly into the lock, you always spray everything with WD-40, um, as as you should, by the way. Um so uh that's uh it's a very easy fix, you know, it's not a not a big thing, and uh squeaky doors of it are just very very annoying to live with, and uh you don't don't put up with it.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

Um you're sort of coming across as though um suggesting that Germans are probably quite good preppers for the apocalypse. Do do you do you have a a box at home? Do your parents have a box at home with everything you need to survive at uh a nuclear fallout?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Um I mean we we we haven't reached that stage yet. Um I mean as as the world edges closer to uh to this event becoming uh more probable by by the month as we as we definitely we are on a on a good path right now. So a lot of Germans have uh or the the fantasies about prepping of of many Germans, uh they have a very, very good time. Um no, but I mean of course we have uh as as I think um as as at least uh my in my grandparents' generation, uh you always had your your kind of your food basement, um a room filled with filled with jars and and and foods which uh um which basically don't expire um at all and water and everything. Yeah, yeah, we we have we have it, we have it, of course.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

Is um because obviously with all the issues with with Russia, a number of countries are now receiving sort of governmental um advice as to sort of being able to sort of prep for say um electricity shutdowns for for a period or other infrastructural grid um collapses. Has has has that happened at all in Germany? Actually, I know you and I have spoken about the fact that now as a young German male, you're not uh technically allowed to leave the country for um and an an ongoing period. You have to let the government know if you're gonna be out of the country for what is it, more than four months or something?

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Uh I think it was uh if I'm uh more than three months out of the country. Was it three or six months? But I mean it's it's ridiculous, anyways. And uh it was only discovered by by journalists after the law was actually passed. Um, it wasn't talked about at all. Um during during the the parliamentary hearings and everything and the discussions. Um but uh yeah that that that is an issue which is uh which is well a big debate right now in Germany, and um and definitely uh the debate is not not over yet. Um as the the German cabinet is reorganized to their the yes uh yes either you're in a room with a dog called Lucy, Declan.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

Or I think you heard of that, didn't you? Or you or or you you that you definitely have uh an unedited level of schizophrenia.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Uh no, she I think she for some reason she's been a little bit out of source tonight, and uh everyone else has gone to bed, and she just it's just something not quite right with her. So uh maybe she's had some of that Mexican lettuce.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Well, don't blame Mexico for that lettuce. Obviously, Declan, for those of you who are unaware of this, there's a whole issue in North America with explosive diarrhoea, which has now been traced to one particular lettuce manufacturer. But um, I think we've digressed enough uh for the moment. Let's come back to the uh the to to to the football away from Paul's potential conscription to fight the Russian army. Uh Declan, uh yes, the game today, did it live up to billing?

SPEAKER_03 14:44

It's a hard one to answer. I mean, I uh uh we all predicted a comfortable win for Spain. Uh 2-0, 3-0, 4-0. And you know, knowing the Argentine mentality, it probably was never going to be that way. Uh, it certainly wasn't a particularly fun game to watch at all. You know, anytime you have the world champions not registering a shot until the 170th minute, which is the first team in FIFA World Cup history not to have registered a shot in the first 90 minutes, says says it all for the game. Uh, there was an area of inevitability that Argentina was sort of hanging on and hanging on and hanging on for penalties, and if it had got to the penalties, it they probably would have won. But uh it was hardly it's it's it's strange in a way because I was watching the US news tonight on TV, and both uh both of the main stations, ABC and NBC, were talking about it being a World Cup final for the ages. Now, most Americans will have the mentality that you know it needs to be like the England-France game yesterday, 6-4. Um, but it was not like that. But it was it was it was quite fascinating in its own way. Uh, Argentina obviously completely lost the plot. Uh, by the end of the game, it was embarrassing. You know, they actually the the players let Messi down in many respects because of the antics that went on uh towards uh well after the game. And uh, you know, it was it was it was intriguing in a certain way because of the fact that Spain's dominated so much, it was just incredible how much possession they had, how many, how many times, you know, how they completely outshot um Argentina, and the number of fouls was Argentina 25 to Spain 21. Um so I mean it was it was uh it was uh the the vast majority of the world, um, apart from you know if you're from Argentina, were happy that Spain won. Uh it certainly won't go down in the aisles of history as as a an absolute classic by any stretch of the imagination. And you know, Argentinas the way they played, I thought they'd play like that against England, and England will get through in the semi-final, but it really in many respects, you know, it was a bit of a beleaguered performance, a bit of a toothless performance, a bit of a shell shock performance. It was it was it was it was just yeah, very disappointing for the world champions to turn up and play the game of football that we love um the way they did. So really it was a it was a victory for the game of football rather than for the way Argentina approached the game.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah, I think you you're totally right, because had Argentina won that game, the level of cynicism that Argentina displayed throughout that game, um uh which it sort of reveals itself in the statistics. I mean, I'm gonna mention a couple of those in again in a minute, and I know you already have, of course, Declan as well, but that cynicism that sort of expanded through uh not just through the sort of fouls and the um and the sort of the structure of the game that Argentina were playing, but then of course in the deep sort of cynicism at the end and the sort of the the petulance and the violence, and also it just sort of cheapens the Argentine brand because it does it great damage, I think. Not that they care, but um, but in a sort of in an international context, I mean Argentina are one of the great footballing nations. They don't need to resort to those kinds of uh sort of street um street tactics really to move through. But Paul, just before I come to you, just a few of the the statistics, which I think are are interesting. Um yeah, at one point, sort of echoing what Depan was saying, before the goal that Spain scored, um, Spain were playing three passes for every pass of uh that Argentina had. Um so it's almost 75% of passes were uh were Spain's. They had 16 shots to nil, 11 shots on target uh to nil uh as well, and remarkably uh only uh three players now, since uh records began in 1966, have made, successfully made more than 100 passes in the World Cup final. And two of those were today, Baal Koubarsi, 19 years old he is, and Rodri uh of course, only the second and third players on on record. That the other, the third was Dunga in the final in 1994. But for both of those individuals to to sort of, I mean it doesn't necessarily show up in a lot of the other statistics, but to really sort of um dominate that that midfield, I think, is is really quite um uh quite striking. Um Paul, was there anything redeeming about Argentina's play today, or did it leave you feeling a little sort of soiled?

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Um, I mean it left me with uh with lots of uh of Schadenfreude, I definitely have to have to say. Um I feel a little bit uh uh or I can't help myself but to feel a little bit um petty and and happy about Argentina's loss. Um I mean I'm I'm happy that Spain won as well. Um it was a it was a definitely a multi-layered match, um, lots of politics involved, of course. Um and in the end, in the end, football won, as Declan said. And I think that the Argentines they didn't really turn up to play football. And I think that to your point, uh that it's it's it's like um um like below their um their their pay grade or something to to play like this on the Argentinian side, um uh like committing so many fouls. I would say that actually they I mean that was their play style throughout the whole tournament, and I think without the uh and we we we used to forget that um over the tournament, but I mean there was a a directive by FIFA given out to the referees to show more leniency to get a smoother game, and Argentina, uh Argentina just took advantage of it as much as it could. I mean, today we should have seen three red cards, in my opinion. I mean the foul against Danny Olmo, for example, uh was horrendous. That was that was definitely a deep, deep yellow card, at least, but there was nothing given in the end. And um and then the the Parades uh foul um uh uh definitely not the sorry, not the not the not the Parades uh uh foul, but the uh Enzo Fernandez foul was a was a clear, clear red card. Um uh and and and that there was another instance, sorry, but there were there were so many instances um which uh in in which uh yeah just uh Argentina got got the best out of the referee. And uh another statistic I have for you so um there were in the whole history of the World Cup, there were six red cards given in a final, and three of these red cards go to Argentina. And always in finals, uh, where they were on kind of the back foot and they were losing. So um, I mean, uh, Argentina, uh, both on the pitch, I think, and as a country, uh, really showed not their best face. And when it comes to to the fans, I mean, you can't throw everything every Argentinian in into the same pot, right? Um, but the our listership in Argentina is low, so so go for it, throw them all in the same pot. Yeah, yeah, I'll I'll do that. I mean, Argentina is I mean, we had we had this this issue um in in the Champions League with the uh who who was it um from from Benfica who covered his mouth and uh was then was then barred, but then the the the ban was a little bit reduced and everything. And the the amount, for example, of racism towards the uh one of the biggest streamers. I mean he's a black guy from from America, uh speed, um uh the the amount of uh of ape noises and ape movements were just astonishing. And to see that um for Argentinians to to feel that freedom um or that impunity to just do that in in a stadium in front of cameras and everything is is just extremely ugly. And then um mixed with uh with their nationalism, everything makes more sense. And if you then of course look into the political situation, which is currently um and and and and the politics and and the guy on uh on the top of it, everything makes a little bit more sense, but it doesn't make it better um at all. And um, yeah, the the amount of fouls committed, um I think 25 in total by Argentina in the end. Um very happy, uh very lucky on the Argentinian side um that that FIFA was so lenient uh this time, but it wasn't enough. And uh I was very happy to see that that it wasn't enough, and to finally see a red card in the in the in the 90 uh plus plus third minute. And um and and still the the the kind of uh the the the arrogance um then on the on the part of Enzo Fernandes to not accept the decision at all, uh even though everybody, I mean everybody who starts understands a little bit about football, if you already committed um a foul and got a yellow yellow card for that, then this is a clear red. I mean, just just stop the debate. And um, and this this this whole thing overshadowed um for me the the whole final. Um then of course the the extremely ugly scenes uh involving Parades Um who who just uh went completely apeshit and and started punching. Um and I mean he he almost landed a clean right hand. Um and I hope that uh honestly that this behavior cannot be tolerated. Yeah, I mean that that deserves a pretty good yeah, that definitely uh must be followed up with a with a ban. And um let's see what what FIFA does. And I think that uh hopefully um now with uh with Messi being probably not anymore, and the uh at least we're not that we're not gonna see him play for the Argentinian national team in the World Cup, that um that FIFA uh yeah applies the rules a little bit more um more harshly also to to Argentina because um yeah I think that they actually um in the in the hopes of of reaching the the penalties just didn't play football at all. They were just fighting and fouling and uh and not able to create. I mean it it is astonishing. They had till the 115th minute, the expected goals for Argentina was 0.0, 115th minute. And then there was this one chance where Simeone um luckily missed missed the missed the goal um after a very nice cross uh from Messi. And um, and I think that this final also overshadows Messi's uh yeah, the the the the the ending of his of his World Cup legacy. And uh and of course uh on uh he also did not manage to um to top uh the the nine goals by Amber Pay. So uh he did not manage uh to to actually hold the record and get the get the golden boot, this world cup. Um I think I talked about that that that it would be funny that um after Messi broke the record uh and Mbappé would uh would break it in in the same turn, but I think that that would be uh that would be a first as well.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

Um I just think the I think the the the the damning statistic is you know Spain finished with zero yellow cards and Argentina picked up six yellows, two reds.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Six yellow cards.

SPEAKER_03 26:26

That is that's just incredible in a final and and and the reality was you know, and their fans are fantastic, they're passionate, uh, they're quite obnoxious, but they love their team, they love their country. But I saw film footage of when the the trophy presentation was going on uh with fame, that they had their backs to the whole presentation and they were clapping the Argentinian fans, which again is great, but you have to show respect to the opposition in a World Cup final. Yeah, yeah. Our friend Laminia Mal, at 19 years old, he was abused, he was uh threatened, he was intimidated, and he showed he was a perfect example of of how the Spanish team dealt with the provocation that was constantly going on throughout the the whole of the game plus uh plus the extra time. So which is again which is why it comes back to football is the winner, and sadly this could be part of the memory of Messi's legacy that he was part of uh you know a team of of Yobos who were trying to define how they won their second World Cup in a row, which obviously would have been scandalous if they'd won it. Um so I'm I think Spain can hold their hand their heads up completely, and Laminha Mal is just an absolute absolute tribute to the Spanish team and will go on to be a fantastic next icon in the world of global football.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Yeah, there was a bit where La Minha Mal was um uh sort of went off the side with an Argentine player, I can't remember who it was, man-handled in front of the Argentine dugout, and clearly sort of provoked uh at that point, and he just sort of he sort of stood up, held his arms up, and just moved away from the from the trouble. And I think that absolutely exemplifies what it is that you're what you're saying there, Deflin. Added to which um I think um Messi didn't help himself. Soon after the Enzo Fernandez red card, I think it was uh Cucureya who who was sort of talking to him and his his hand passed over his mouth. It wasn't anything, you know, obviously this new FIFA rule about uh not uh being a sending off offensive, you your hand passes over your mouth. And then immediately Leo Messi went up to the referee and was demanding for uh sort of the the redress of another sending off of um of Cukuraya and Enzo Fernandez's sending off. I mean, um, you know, I don't like being down on players, but a more hateful little figure uh given his his record, as you say, Paul, of racism, of racist songs on the team bus in 20 uh 22, his general attitude. I mean, maybe Valentin Barco after the England matches sort of is right up there. I enjoyed his sheepish face uh to today uh with with them not winning. But Fernandez absolutely deserved to be to be sent off. And and Declan, the thing is, these things, these these things have a massive, these matches, of course, have a massive global audience and they don't exist in isolation. As you well know, behavior that is allowed and sanctioned or turned a blind eye to in these kinds of events immediately translate into general behavior on the um on football pitches up and down any land, up and down the world, which it makes uh sort of established almost cultural norms that nobody wants to allow into the game.

SPEAKER_03 30:02

Yeah, there's a lot of uh similarities between uh the Argentinian national team and Uruguay. I know we've spoken about Uruguay at length uh in previous podcasts, but when all is said and done, I mean Argentina ended up leaning on Messi for eight goals and he played fantastically in his own limited way now it is 39 years. Um and they got to the final. But the big question is, is it is it messi that got them to the final and the rest of the squad are just basically average players? Um and what it what is in the future for Argentina? I mean, was that their golden period where you know that they won the World Cup in in Qatar and they got to the final this time? Because you know the reality was they somehow managed to manufacture wins against Cape Verde, against uh Egypt, against Switzerland, and uh the debacle was the last 25 minutes against England. So, you know, the reality is now that Messi's gonna be off the scene, because there's no way he's gonna be playing in four years' time. What where does Argentina go looking forward?

SPEAKER_04 31:21

I think it's a really good question. Um, and uh because I I mean who knows, but I haven't heard the Scalonias said any anything about his future at the moment. But this is definitely a team that is usually in transition, and not just because it's we're we're almost certainly going to be saying the end, saying goodbye to Leo Messi. I mean, he may play a few more games maybe to say farewell to an Argentine audience and so on, but for the long term, he's not gonna be around. And it's not just the end of a gray, it's the fact that Argentina, since 2022, have based their entire footballing structure and identity on um on Leo Messi. I I would add one thing that I think is interesting in terms of not knowing where Argentina is going to go next, is that I think Diego Simeoni at uh uh at uh Atletico Madrid has had kind of an outsized role in in Argentine footballing culture for quite a while now. Of course, he's been coach there uh since 2011, 15 years, second second longest serving manager, professional manager in Europe. But the reason I bring this up is because there are a lot of Argentine players and have been historically at Atletico Madrid. Seven players from this uh from this Argentine squad play for him, including his son, of course, um at Atletico Madrid. So um whatever happened, I mean I don't think necessarily he's going to become the next Argentine manager, although, you know, I guess that is a that is a possibility, but uh whatever whatever happens next with Argentina, uh the uh the club that is Atletico Madrid and Diego Simeoni will have a significant role to uh to to play there. Paul, can we just come in to come to this to Spain as uh not just victors today, but I'm interested in talking about the kind of the legacy component of what we've what we saw to take place during this tournament. Interestingly, and I sort of reminded myself before speaking to you both today that you remember when we sort of ranked the semi the coaches from the semi-final, and all four of us put Luis de la Fuente in fourth place. And I think that's really interesting because uh it almost we did, I think, tell me if I'm wrong, because he's kind of quite an unassuming guy. He is that sort of uh almost youth coach, which is exactly what he uh what uh uh how he came into the uh into the position. He took a job with the Spanish FA in 2013, and 18 of the 20 18 of the 26 players in the Spain squad have been in youth sides under Luis de la Fuente for the last um decade or more. This is the sixth youngest World Cup squad, and a third of players, uh I mean Luis de la Fuente, of course, is from the Basque region as well, but a third of players are from uh Barcelona as well. This is uh, I mean, obviously they won the Euros uh a couple of years ago, but this is a squad that could really, a generationally talented squad at 16 years after their previous World Cup winning the two Euros, that could really go on to dominate uh European and world football again for a period.

SPEAKER_01 34:17

Yes, um definitely. I mean they they once did it already, and uh and I mean last time as well, we have to remember that. Um, and I think that's uh that's that's probably important in the in the going to uh going into the future as well. Um the last uh win of Spain in a World Cup in 2010 was also preceded by a win in the Euros in 2008 against Germany, um, where also a a Torres shot the shot the winning goal. Uh it was uh Fernando Torres uh back then. Um I mean in my tirade about Argentina and and and everything, I of course completely glossed over the the incredible performance uh still from Spain today. I mean the efficiency in front of the goal was uh was an issue, but apart from that, I mean what what Spain, I think, what they what is one of their superpowers is of course first the way they play, but second that they just are completely trusting as a as a team in the way they play. They didn't they don't change their system too much if if something does not seem to work immediately, right? I mean if you if you look at the at the Spain from the first half and then the Spain in the last 15 minutes, it was a little bit different, of course. Um, I mean there were more crosses, um, more long shots, um a little bit, or mean I mean an extra time in general. Um, but they just they have one playstyle and they know that this is I mean they haven't lost a game since 2024, since they since they since they won the Euros, right? So this is a proven system which nobody yet was able to crack. And I think that the only the only way in which you um at least can um can surprise the team is by uh uh by being an underdog team, which then in the end actually plays much better than than expected, as Cape Word, for example, did. Um and uh so overall uh I definitely agree on the on the point uh on Luis de la Fuentes, so that he's more of a I mean if you compare it to to him to a Thomas Tuchel, for example, he's a much more laid-back guy. Um and uh and and so he he doesn't put himself in into the forefront of of everything. And and I think that the team itself they can regulate themselves pretty good. And um and yeah, I mean Spain, uh I I've uh I've I've I've talked about the the the recent uh wins in the Euros, both in the men's and women's under 19 uh teams. They they won both both cups. And the um yeah, the the the academy, this the Spanish academy is football academy is just incredible. I mean, Barcelona, of course, is the center of it, but it's uh not not only. And um it's very it's gonna be very, very hard to beat this kind of Spanish, uh, Spanish playstyle. Um, I mean they evolved from Tiki Taca to to this one, which which works for for quite a long time um already and will probably work, and and it will take uh hopefully a couple of years, because it's lovely to see this Spain play this football. It's just really really nice. And um uh and let's see what uh what team and what what uh what kind of uh of counter playstyle then uh in the end will crack the team, or maybe uh the generation will just uh become old and and then there's the generational change once again, and that's how uh Spain will uh will change their playstyle as well. Um but completely deserved. Um and I'm I'm just uh also it's it's nice to have the to have the World Cup in in Europe and uh and with Spain having their second World Cup, uh they're still two cups away from Germany. That's also important, of course, for me, right? We want to keep with the the Italy Germany club is a very exquisite one, a very um uh a very small one. And uh yeah, I would I would I would have hated to have Argentina and that Argentina in that club uh as well. So um for many for many different reasons, um, but all all good ones um in favor of Spain. I'm very happy that um that Spain won the World Cup. And they were just the best team by I think in the end, really by a long shot uh in the whole tournament. Most uh most consistency. Um I think they they were always above uh an expected goals uh of 1.5 um and I mean uh conceded one goal, one eight matches. It is incredible. And and and uh Unay Simon just really um I think he he discovered his his inner Manuel Neuer in some uh in some instances.

SPEAKER_04 38:51

His uh younger Manuel Neuer.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, the young of course the uh the the 2014 Manuel Neuer. Um and he he he made uh he really uh gave a gave a very good um good performance today. And happy, happy, and I mean Lamin Jamal, uh first great in character, but great on the pitch as well. I mean imagine you're 19 and you are integrated into uh into a team of uh of of 20 and 30 years old, and I mean you were basically since you were 16. What what this uh what this young guy achieved, not only of course on on the skill level, on the football level, but also on a psychological level, is just amazing. And um, and his character and his um his uh I mean in the football world advocacy for for Palestine, which I appreciate a lot. That was by the way also uh another battleground today was the Argent it was the it was the Israel-Palestine conflict, just to bring it up here, because of course um Pedro in spin in Spain, uh this is not Pedro Sanchez in Spain. Uh he's of course very, very vocal, um uh in favor of of a Palestinian statehood and against the against the genocide and uh and the Israeli aggression in the region. And on the other side, you have the complete opposite. You have uh Javier Miley, which um on the regular basis uh praises uh Bibi Netanyahu and Israel and uh and uh and just uh loves uh loves Israel. And um, yeah, so that that was uh that was another battle round. I think it's it's it's uh it's important to to bring uh that up as well.

SPEAKER_03 40:27

You know what was what you know what was quite interesting on the coverage I was watching the game on Fox here in the States? They uh two big points. One, they were saying that uh when Scaloni did his I think it's the FIFA Pro or the top license in Europe, you know who his instructor was was Luis Duafente. And he he so there is there is some history between the two in a very positive fashion, but then as you said, Paul, this is the first time that uh in world football uh that Spain are the first nation to hold both the men's and the women's World Cup titles simultaneously. So uh it's quite daunting. Uh having witnessed Spain in the uh Euros final against England in the Olympic Stadium Berlin two years ago, that they are creating quite the dynasty, both on the men's side and the women's side.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

Yeah, can we just let's just stay with that for a minute, Declan, because I think one of the interesting things about this kind of notion of this of the Spanish footballing identity and idea is that if you look at other nations, what generally happens is that uh there's a period of time with a particular identity and then that fails or uh comes full circle or comes to an end, and then somebody else is employed and replaces that individual, and then you have a new, to some extent at least, a new footballing identity that follows the coach. But for Spain, that's completely the opposite. Spain has a generation long now, at the very least, sense of how it is of this sort of deference to the past of pre-eminence of the past is everything, the quick release. And everybody, including Luis de la Fuente, is employed based on their adherence to those central principles that will not be um sort of uh diluted or or broken down. And so the individuals are are employed based on their adherence to those principles rather than the other way around.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting because you know, after Spain won the uh World Cup back in 2010, a lot of the the John Bon Figlios, the Paul Smith Trotskers, and the Declanics of this world at that time on global podcasts were talking about a potential dynasty. Uh, but that 2008 to 2012 period in Spanish football history never really kicked on after 2012. And I we all think, I think we all agree that that this Spanish team is is different. Um, however, right through the tournament until Spain played France, France were the team that everyone was talking about that were easy on the eye, they had such a deep squad and were were particularly sexy to watch. So I think we we can uh lick our chops and rub our hands to look forward to the Euros in two years' time to see back in Europe when hopefully things will get back onto a level, even sort of keel with regards to some of the craziness that FIFA have introduced into this World Cup. Uh, there's gonna be Spain aren't uh France aren't going anywhere, and with Zined and Zidane coming in, they are gonna be probably taken to a completely different level because he's won everything as a player and a coach. Um, so that the two premier teams in Europe are gonna be Spain and France. Uh, where does everyone else? Stand in that pecking order.

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I mean, definitely two footballing powerhouses. And then, of course, you would expect Germany under Jürgen Klopp. I mean, he's going to get the very best out of those players, uh, for for sure. Um, so you would expect Germany to come back in as serious contenders.

SPEAKER_03 44:18

And England, and England under Pep Guardiola as well. Don't forget that.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Well, yeah, I mean, as another uh obviously, uh let's assume that Leo Scaloni uh resigns from Argent from Argentina. Maybe we throw him into the sort of into the Thomas Tuchel, into the replacing Thomas Tuchel. Obviously, that is never going to happen. Uh, but uh well maybe he could replace uh uh Jaze Mourinho at Real Madrid. I don't know. Um I think do you think the question about Scaloni is is what Scaloni does next. I mean, assuming that he he finishes up with Argentina is interesting because remember that when Scaloni came in, he he sort of he he was a successor, and he was really he wasn't highly regarded in any way, shape, or form. There was a lot of resistance to him coming in, and now he's basically regarded as being a sort of a premier footballing coach. But in in some ways, his I mean he has made uh a number of key decisions, not least against England, but his um but he's almost a sort of a relatively unassuming character in the face of this sort of quite um strong front-facing Argentine side. So I wonder whether his skills, um, this is probably one for you, Jacqueline, whether his skills are translate translatable to club management or not.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

What about this first scenario as you threw it out there? Diego Simeone taking over as the Argentine national manager and Scaloni taking over the as the uh Athletico Madrid manager because I mean there has been talk for many years that uh Diego Simeone's on his way out, and sooner or later uh he is gonna move on. And uh you know, Scaloni has has definitely built up a great CV or resume, considering when he first came in, there was a lot of uh displeasure within the Argentine Argentinian football fans and and and what have you, the media that he what he didn't have the qualifications. You know, now that he's won a World Cup and got to a World Cup final, you would have thought the world would be his oyster. So it'll be very interesting to see if he does turn up in the top European team, because there's no doubt he will move unless he's already resigned, he will he will move on from the national scene in Argentina, and there probably will be a home from hit for him in Europe.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

Yeah, whereas with Simeone, um, and I think you're absolutely right. Simeone, given the fact that he's been now Gletscher Madrid for 15 years, it would be difficult. I mean, if he was gonna move to another, say, bigger an inverted commas club, I mean, you would have thought that he would have moved to a British, to an English club, Premier League club by now. I mean, he's definitely not going to go to Real Madrid or Barcelona for obvious reasons. I mean, that would just be kind of heresy and multiply that by the kind of the Argentine footballing project at Madrid as well. Would it be worth his while to move to an Italian side? I mean, I can't really see that happening. So the only job that I think would entice him, arguably, would be the Argentine um national side. So I think you're right, Defra. I think there's you know potential. I mean, who knows? Argentina has its fair share of uh top quality managers, but um but Simeoni would be a sort of uh top-tier figure, and he can't stay at Atletico Madrid for um for forever. I I wouldn't have thought. Um Paul, your views on Scaloni and his adaptability to club uh to club management.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

Um let's see. I mean, uh Jürgen Klopp to me, of course, is uh is definitely a great coach and um I think one one of the best coaches when it comes to to really structuring something from from the ground up. But I mean he has been um out for uh for yeah more more than a year and uh and developed further as well. And in in regards to Scaloni, um I mean it's it's a it's a very very difficult question for uh for me to ask. Um his adaptability, I think that uh of course, I mean um we we even seen I mean we even seen seen uh Thomas Tochou being able to adapt um in the last game. Um he he he put a and and I mean if if you wouldn't expect it from somebody then from him, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:30

I mean but does that count? Does adapting in their third, fourth place playoff count as as as adapting? If you sleep in a hammock once a year on holiday, does that count as changing your sleeping patterns?

SPEAKER_01 48:43

No, of course not. Um yeah, you're absolutely where did that one come from, Jill?

SPEAKER_03 48:48

Have you ever used that one before?

SPEAKER_04 48:49

I haven't, you know. Just you know, I just came came out of nowhere. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Always incredible creativity.

SPEAKER_04 48:54

That's me clicking my fingers, thinking, thinking live. Um let's uh any any any uh last thoughts for the final tonight? In the next couple of days, we'll we'll do a proper debrief of the of the whole tournament and various thoughts and uh top players, best matches, unfortunate moments, and all those kinds of things. But just for the moment, any final comments you want to make on the yes on today's uh on today's match?

SPEAKER_01 49:18

So um another statistic, interesting statistic, is that for the second time and the second time only, um we uh we had a we had a a joker scoring, and it was uh uh the the unlucky Argentinian uh Argentinians were hit twice. I mean Maira Gutze in 2014, uh a joker as well, came fairly late, and uh and today it was uh Ferran Torres. And uh so uh Argentina both times were uh were beaten by a team using using a joker.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

Sorry, uh a joker meaning a substitute, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Oh sorry, uh that's uh I I I um I fell back to my to my German football vocabulary. Yes, uh so we a joker we call a joker is a substitute which um uh who then went on and scored scored a goal. So yes, a joker substitute. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 50:13

I didn't it's only that it's only the second time in history it's happened that a substitute has come on and scored the winner.

SPEAKER_04 50:20

And um and it's the first time in my history that I've ever heard that um be used, and I will be using that um on on uh all football commentary from now on. So thank you. And then I'll say my good friend Paul Schmidroshke, um who I once shared a podcast with, revealed to me the um you also missed Declan. We we we you have to listen back to it because it's really good. We had a whole, whilst you were out walking Lucy, um, or letting Lucy out, we had a whole Lucy.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

What's her name? Uh the misses, because she's a bit of a dictator, called her one name and everyone else calls her another name. Uh I'm not going to disclose on on the uh to our worldwide listeners what her name is, but um she has a she she has on when we walk her, she has a this is got really weird. She has she has a name on on her collar that all the neighbors call her, but none of my family call her that because my missus did not give us any insight into naming the dog. So um she has it two different names, so I'll just leave it like that.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Okay, so in that case, just the the the the the short sort of um uh schizophrenic uh one man act play that you did before. In that you seem to have called your dog a particular name, but um but which is what I thought the name was clearly.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Um it definitely wasn't a Lucy, didn't it? So it doesn't sound anything like Lucy. I don't know what you're on over that.

SPEAKER_04 51:42

Right, we'll have to listen back to it and uh and check. On on which surreal notes, I think it's probably time for us to say goodnight. Congratulations to uh to Spain, as you said right at the beginning, Declan. Definitely a result which was deserved because it's not always that way. Uh well merited and overall uh was good for football. Good night.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Yeah, football wins. That's the moral of the story today.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

Thank you so much, guys, and speak to you tomorrow.