DISCUSSION: Klopp, Guardiola & Farewell to the Iconic Kevin Keegan

DL, JB and Paul von Troschke come together to discuss news of the week, including Jurgen Klopp's first press conference as German coach, Pep Guardiola turning down the Italy role, and the passing of England great, Kevin Keegan. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hi everyone, and welcome back to World Football, etc., where today we are in discussion mode, and no world football, etc., is complete without Mr. Declan Link. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Hello, John, and uh hello, Paul.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Oh, there you go, ruining my injury again, because I was about to say, and of course, on the other side of the ring, and then I was gonna do a whole sort of drum roll for Paul Schmidt's Troschka uh again. But um keep good go go ahead with the script. Go on. Don't worry, I've I've got I've got another little bit I want to drop in. So first of all, I'm just gonna greet Paul. Hello, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Hello, John. Hello, Declan.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Um, so Paul, today I learned that Schmidt means blacksmith. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Um almost that that's uh the if you would have an E uh after the I, then it was uh it would be right. But in my case, it's just uh one of the most common names. Uh in Germany, probably uh it came for that like a couple of hundred years ago.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Ah, and I also learned a couple of things about Troschke. On the one hand, I understand it means somebody from a particular kind of local terrain or sometimes marshy place, but it also, and I really enjoy this historically refers to uh relates to and and appears frequently as the von Troschkers, indicating historical land ownership or regional origin in of course Germany, but also maybe Austria. So are you really secretly a von Troschke and are you hiding your Austrianness?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

There you go. I I mean I usually know my family history and about names and everything quite well, but um that that I'm a potential von Troschke um with uh with claims to some, I don't know, uh Austrian mountain valley region or something like that. That's news to me. I definitely have to uh have to follow up on that and and do a little investigation.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

You have an heir of the von Troschkers, I think. Um so yeah, let's let's hope that um that that is the case and you discover some land somewhere in in Austria, and we can come visit you in the summers.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Yeah, it would be lovely, absolutely. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

In in in one of your palaces, Paul.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Of course, of course, yes. But I will die in a palace no matter if uh if I'm actually a von Troschka or not. So just to be clear.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

The Troschkas and the Vontroschkas clearly had uh an extensive array of both men and women servants, I suspect, at some point in the past.

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, no, don't don't ruin it now. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Okay, but let's get on to the um more serious matters. We're gonna be talking today a little bit about uh Jürgen Klopp, uh in uh uh new German coach, uh of course, and also Pep Guardiola, who is uh not Italy's new coach. But before that, let's talk about um I think the the death of Kevin Keegan, Kevin Keegan, the sort of the iconic uh figure, who was uh, of course, an English footballer and manager, widely regarded as one of the most charismatic figures in in the history of British football, I think. Um nicknamed King Kev, uh, which is not particularly noteworthy, but I always appreciated the fact that he was also known as Mighty Mouse because he was not the tallest figure. He had a kind of a Maradona-esque physique, I think. He was hugely successful for both Liverpool, where in the mid-80s he and Liverpool FC won basically everything. And Newcastle United. He was one of only four English players to win the Ballon d'Or and the only English player to win it twice. And in the dugout, he he um then moved into uh coaching, into management, where he famously managed the England national team and transformed Newcastle United into Premier League contenders, specifically the kind of side that play the the sort of brand of football that we all like to see and dream that our clubs might play. Uh Declan, um I have strong memories of Kevin Keegan, but I didn't quite grow grow up with him. But I'm guessing for you he was a um a really significant um figure during your youth.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yes, uh very much so, John. I mean, he he was the the superstar really in England in the days in my formative years when I was growing up, and obviously as a keen young English footballer and football fan, uh King Kev, uh particularly during his um Liverpool days and uh and then as he when he was playing for the English national team and then in his managerial days, he was just everywhere. I mean, he was one of those players that you mentioned him in the same breath as Maradona, but Maradona was naturally extremely gifted and and arguably one of the best players, top five players the world has ever seen. Whereas the thing about Kevin Keegan was he was someone who had a similar type of build, had a stellar playing professional career with Liverpool, Hamburg, Southampton, Newcastle, and a team called Blacktown City, who I'm not sure who they are and where they're from. Um, but he had to work very hard at his game, a little bit like the modern-day Frank Lampard when he was playing. Frank Lampard was all they always said wasn't blessed with the best skill in the world, but he was always working hard at his game. He was always out there before training, and he was always out there after training doing extra work so he could maximize his potential. And that's what they always used to say about Kevin Keegan was not only did he not have the best talent in the world, supposedly. I I question that a little bit, but he was also an icon because he was playing on that Liverpool team, him and John Toshek up front. Uh, but then he he was probably the first player, football player I associated with a lot of the commercial stuff, particularly his uh commercials with um both of your two chosen preferred aftershave, brute. I don't know if you know about that, guys.

SPEAKER_03 6:09

Uh I'm aware of Brute. I I mean I still it's a very distinctive smell. I I don't remember it being associated with Kevin Keegan.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

And you're saying you don't wear it nowadays either?

SPEAKER_03 6:18

I did once, you know, in my youth. Uh, but no, I I don't wear brute anymore. But no, there was a number of years in my youth where Brute and me were yeah, in indivisible.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Yeah, I try I tried it once and thought I need to stick to my Paco Raban. That was me.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Um yes. Uh the just uh an answer to your question about Blacktown City, um it's uh it's a it's a club in in Australia, and um one of the uh one of the surprising things perhaps that emerged from the death of Cone Keen was how there was actually a a real sort of um swell of both press and um and and emotion, despite the fact that he only played uh in for Blacktown City for for a couple of games. Uh but uh no, he was it was one of those, I think it was one of those things that is is worth mentioning about him because partly as you say, it was the kind of player he was and his work ethic, but also the fact that he went to Hamburg. There was also there were always something in a in a in a period of time, footballing and his sort of historical period of time, in which there really wasn't very much that was European about England or about English football. He it seems to me that he was one of the first kind of cross, cross-channel, cross-border figures. He was always he was a sort of a groundbreaker in that way, I think. He he sort of was always looking outside of, I mean, the the obvious sort of cliche phrase is you know, thinking outside of the box. But that was always him, I think. He he never sort of stopped to tradition and always sort of tried to, he was always into sort of reinvention, I guess. And and yeah, when I think of Keegan, I of course I think of him in particular for Liverpool in the 80s in that hugely successful period, but also how he would just keep pushing himself to into different sort of spaces and challenges throughout his life.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah, I mean in in many respects, I mean obviously nowadays there's more English uh or sorry, UK footballers going and playing in Europe uh in the different leagues. But uh if you think of a modern day somewhat of a comparison would be the fact that Harry Kane moved to uh Bayern Munich a couple of years ago, and he has been so welcomed and so accepted by not just the Bayern Munich fans, but in in general the German football fans, and please correct me if I'm wrong, PST, but Kevin Keegan went to Hamburg, which was definitely there was another player at the time who was uh in that period, Tony Woodcock, who went over to Germany as well. Um, but Kevin Keegan was welcomed with open arms and was you know perceived in 1977 after he joined Hamburg, where he won the Bundesliga as as you know this wonderful footballer from England. Uh so it it broke a mould at the time, and it took a long time. It's only in the really in the last two to three years, you've had so many British-based or British-born players going over to the European mainland. And nowadays I I would think there's a lot of similarities between what Harry Kane has done in uh in by in Bayern Munich in Germany and won some trophies, etc. etc. Because he was never going to win any with Tottenham. And then, secondly, obviously going back to Kevin Keegan and the success he had uh as a groundbreaker back in uh the the uh the late 70s.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Yeah, hugely I mean, hugely successful, but of course, yeah, almost even more than that. He was just, as I said at the beginning, just uh iconic, larger than larger than life. And um, yeah, he will be he will be missed. One of the great, great figures of uh of English and I think European football as well. But um, let's move on to uh you hold on one second, John.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

You you don't cut Kevin King Kev mighty mouth short. He also had a quite an interesting and stellar managerial career. Um you know, again, he he was a fantastic player, an icon of his time. But then, you know, a lot of the stories from his managerial career when he started off with Newcastle, he was at my beloved Fulham uh for a couple of years, and I remember I was living in the States by then, that was in the late 90s. I saw him uh oversee Fulham and he got promotion once one of the years. He was the England manager for a year or so and gave uh famously resigned. If I I could be wrong here, but I think it was against Germany, and he resigned inside or outside of the toilets at Wembley Stadium, and then had a career still managing Manchester City, and then obviously um went back to Newcastle. So he not only did he did he do it on the pitch as a player, he did it in the dugout as a manager as well.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Yeah, no, he was he was very good, perhaps not quite as as successful and decorated, but he was definitely he would he he was a guy he was a guy that you would go to battle for, I think. And he was also really uncompromising with the kind of football that that he wanted to play, and all three of his non-premiership sides um achieved promotion to the uh to the Premier League with with him. Um I definitely didn't mean to do that part of his life um down by by any stretch of the imagination, but um yeah, a a figure for sure that um I mean he would always be followed around, he would always generate column inches, but not for the wrong reasons. He would just be somebody who just people would gravitate to. And um, yeah, of course, also now widely remembered for that outburst when uh Newcastle United were a number of points ahead of Manchester United, but then Manchester United started reeling reeling them in, and Keegan had this famous outburst where he said that uh I uh I'd love it if we beat them, but of course Manchester United went to the show. Can you do it in his accent, John? I I I I can't, I'm afraid, but I was watching an interview with him recently in which he said he he sort of admitted now that that was probably that outburst was probably him realizing that um that they weren't going to win that the league that that year, and it was a real shame because they didn't go on to win the league afterwards. And I think the way that the the the football that Newcastle United were playing at the time really deserved uh um uh some kind of trophy.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah, he definitely wore it on the sleeve as a player and a manager, and and I s and when when he when he sadly passed away last week, uh it was there were so many consistent uh pieces I heard all over the media about how what a personal guy he was, what a great guy he was, how he'd go out of his way to make people feel comfortable, how he would go the extra mile to do uh autographs, to spend time on the after dinner speaking circuit where he was making money long after his career. But then I saw something on social media that our friend Orient Keith, when he was living out in the in the Middle East in the Gulf, Kevin Keegan was doing a session out there and couldn't be nicer to Orient Keith's little kids who were playing football at the time. So there's there's one close to our pro to our podcast who um who felt the power of King Kev Um uh during during his prime. So yeah, very, very sad loss for football and one of the best players and um and coaches the Premier League and and the uh football league have ever seen in their life, Kevin Keegan, rest in peace.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Yeah, absolutely. Uh Paul, let's come to you now because uh we're also gonna be talking about Pep Wadiola and Jürgen Klopp. Jurgen Klopp gave his first press conference, I think it was yesterday or the day before, uh, in which he sort of laid everything out and he immediately threatened to resign if the media didn't play uh play ball with uh with him, and certainly if they didn't respect the privacy of his family. What was your sense of that um of that uh initial uh grounding press conference that he gave?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Um, I mean, overall, it was a very fun press conference. Is it was very Jürgen Klopp style. You could see that he uh hadn't uh sit in a in the press conference for uh for quite a long time. Uh I mean the longest time in his career since he actually started coaching, right? And and you could you could really see, feel, and listen that he that he missed these press conferences, uh, even though that he he said um it was a little bit contrary. Um but anyways, I mean Klopp is 59 years old, and um he just signed uh with the DFB, with the German football um association or with the German uh with the German uh football federation till 2030. But um Watzke, uh the the head, one of the one of the managers of the of the DFB uh said that uh he is looking forward to even a longer partnership. So um if uh if Germany does uh break the the streak of of missed successes or of bigger losses, uh in other words, um then we I think can see Klopp um definitely uh getting getting 70 um um at the at the as as the Germ as German national team coach.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

11 years as German team coach, wow, that's a prediction.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Oh yeah, I mean if if uh if it goes well, and so far you really have to have to give it to him, he has an in just a crazy track record, right? Um right after um so the way in which he actually became a coach was uh kind of haphazardly. He was playing for uh second German Bundesliga uh club FC uh FSV Mainz back then, and then just basically from one season to the other, uh he switched from being on the pitch to being on the sidelines, became a coach, and then um managed to promote um uh Mainz um for uh I even think it was the first time in their history to to the Bundesliga where they are since since then. So he uh he is a huge legend at Mainz. Uh interestingly, Thomas Tuchel also comes from Mainz, so um uh it's uh it's a very interesting little talent factory we have there uh there in there in Germany. And in regards to how how he dealt with the press um in the room, and I mean he he is he's quite famous for for being very press savvy. And I mean, for God's sake, he coached in England for years, so he knows the English press, which is probably the worst when it comes to football um and and and and coaching, um, probably in the world. I mean uh many many of our listeners, and you of course will remember um when I think the sun uh put out uh pictures of David Beckham, which uh then um people could put on their on their dartboards uh to then throw darts at his face. Um so so that's basically the level we're playing at. And we are far away from that in Germany. I mean, the press, uh, there were definitely moments where they did not deal um in an adequate manner with uh with Julian Nagelsmann, that's for sure. And and that's what he what he basically referred to. Um but yeah, he said that if um if the press is not going to leave his family alone, I am gone. Um, which of course puts pressure on the German Football Association um uh federation as well, um so to make them um make sure that he is not attacked in any uh on any yeah too personal level.

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Um I think it also puts a lot of pressure on the I mean it's it's media savvy because it also puts a lot of pressure on the press. I mean, it is remarkable how good Jürgen Klopp is in these contexts, and actually just linking him with with Kevin Keegan as well, he's just compelling. He's just one of those guys that he talks and you listen. Um and also because you it's not that you don't know where what he's gonna say, that he's sort of wild and off the cuff, but he's just I mean, the word would be, which is almost a bit of a cliche, authentic. He just is he is genuinely Jürgen Klopp and he's very likable and he's very human, um, and he just gets it, and that is it's kind of crazy to think and say that that is just really unusual in the in the world of football these days, Declan.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

I mean, I would if my wife wasn't involved in the travel industry, I would use Travago all the time because he is a compelling salesman. Do you understand the Travago thing? Does it advertise Travago? He advertises constantly for Travago here in the United States.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

And what is what is Travago?

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Travago's some type of travel service, hotel, room booking thing.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Um, yeah, he he's he's definitely I mean I I I love Klopp uh because of the impact he had uh on not only in the Premier League but also with Liverpool and the Liverpool fans absolutely adore him. I was gonna ask PST um with regards to the his coaching staff poll, uh it seems like predictably Pep Linders, now that S um uh Pep has left Man City, has joined him. Um, but there seems to be a little bit of controversy about his longtime agent joining the coaching team. What's that all about?

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Um, I mean, yeah, it's not it's not uh I think a huge controversy, it's just that he that he named him as his uh co-coach um uh for uh some kind of development, uh blah blah blah. Uh so to to um and he and he is not in a in a contractual um relationship with with the German football uh federation. He's just an advisor, basically. Um but it's this is a dream team, right? So if you um if you get Klopp then uh then you you get him as well, and everybody, everybody knew that before him, basically. Uh Sven Bender also, of course, um uh came back um with uh with Judan Klopp as as his as his co as a second second line. And um yeah, in in regards to controversies, I think that this transition was basically as smooth as as it can get. Um the the Juden Nagelsmann issue was resolved pretty pretty quickly. Um then um it was uh I mean whole football Germany knew um that if Neul Nagelsmann actually resigns or gets kicked out in the end, it was like a kind of a middle thing, so the German um football federation did not have to pay him uh too much of severance pay. Uh everybody knew that it's gonna be Jürgen Klopp, and it was just um just basically um then a thing of uh of contractual negotiations with Red Bull, where he was, of course, head of global football um uh for um I think at least uh the last uh one and a half years, and uh his contract would have gone uh uh uh one year further in the end. Um I think the uh how they resolved it is is is a very uh very good way. So um now the the DFB will donate one million euros to Red Bull's Wings for Life Foundation, and uh and that's it basically. Um and uh the contract uh issues are um are resolved. And uh and yeah, apart from that, and apart from his his comments uh um about about media and uh and and and contradict him uh contradicting himself uh sometimes during the press conference, you said that you said it, John. He is just a completely unique, um, but as well completely authentic person. So um you're not gonna get some parts of Jürgen Klopp. Either you get him as well, and that does not only mean he as one person, but um, but the people who um who accompanied his his uh way of successes and his and his career um over two decades um in in in uh Svent Enders uh regards, for example. So um in in the end and Everybody, everybody is very, very happy with uh with Ivan Klopp. And what I lastly want to say about him is of course, uh what uh what Deklan, what you already said about him at Liverpool, that his unique quality is to go into clubs um which are not in a good shape, sometimes in terrible shape, and just build them from the ground up and always lead them to successes. I mean it was with with uh with Mainz, it was the case, um, then of course with Boster Dortmund, winning the Bundesliga back-to-back, um and uh and having huge successes at uh at Dortmund, and and then of course uh uh Liverpool. And lastly, I think the the German football uh federation did not have any other choice. The state in which German football is um finds itself right now in is uh, and we we we're gonna talk about this in regards to Pevka Diola um and and football in Italy, is that you need a rebuild from the ground up. You I mean, you know about Dust reboot. Um I think it's um it's going to be uh a very a very similar thing, and therefore you need uh a coach with a track record in doing that multiple times uh to be sure that he is um that that the probability is high that he will also manage to do the same at um at the German Football Federation. And he wants to look into the the U21, U19, um just a completely different approach to to the coaches beforehand, at least since uh since Joachim Lurf. Um so I think that that he um he has enough time at least to prepare for the Euros. And he also, and that was very important to me, he also said that um we have to do proper expectations management. And uh I think that's that is very key for Germany at this stage. We cannot just as we did over the last basically, I don't know, 50-70 years, just expect that Germany always has a shot at the title. We have to do expectations management, and um, if we reach the the quarterfinals in the Euros or even the semifinals, we have to book that as a as a as a big success as well after the debacle we have seen um unfolding over the last uh 12 years.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

I'm I'm excited. I'm excited, John Paul, for Germany. One because of Grandpa Augusti from Frankfurt, but secondly, because uh the world football needs Germany to be in the in the in the top eight, top ten. They can't be as they've been for the last few years, down with the Bulgarias, the Hungaries, the Swedens, and the Finlands of this world. So I welcome them back to the top to the top shelf club countries.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Um have you deliberately mentioned Bulgaria, Hungary, and Finland? Because you don't win, you know, we don't have that many listeners in those in those countries.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

No, I just wanted to get a reaction from Paul.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Um, can I just say I think I think you're absolutely right, Paul, in the sense that um, of course, Jürgen Klopp is a top coach, right? We know that, but he's also an individual who changes cultures, who goes in somewhere, he brings people together, uh, he he he shares, uh, he gets people to buy in and share kind of common goals around what's taking place. And I think in part that's also this disappointment of his of his agent. He said that it's um that it's not just about the football, of course, that's a priority, but it's also about, and he said, we must also change lots of other things. We need people who can do this alongside me. And I think that's where it is uh clearly the scale of the project is understood that he is a head coach, but he is somebody who's going to be looking at sort of root and branch reform in in Germany and across German football. And as with you, Declan, I think the thing is, you know, with with Jürgen Klopp's appointment, suddenly everybody's excited about German football. I don't remember ever being excited about German football before.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

No, and and to Paul's point again about his taking uh a look at the big picture, I think strategically his uh or not necessarily his, but I'm sure he was part of it. Um hiring of of Pair Murtasaka as the managing director for sport overseeing the men's all the men's national teams is a key appointment because Murtasaka has developed not only as a player but as a coach running Arsenal's Academy in the last eight years or so, he has developed he has developed uh a fantastic reputation, only to be seen obviously with what Arsenal have done since Arteta got there. He's been a key part of that club's development of youth players. So that seems to be where Germany currently are massively lacking, and if that pipeline of players can come through, then again that will be a to me, Murta Sacker will be a masterful signing um by Klopp for the uh for the for the German team in the next two, four, six, eight, ten years.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

So let's move on to Pepquad uh Pep Guardiola with uh with Italy. This uh will he, won't he that's been playing out over the last uh few days. Um I mean I guess to some extent the fact that he he said no is is not that much of a surprise given uh how exhausted he said he was at the end of the season with Manchester City, which was only a few weeks ago. Uh but um seems to me, Declan, that this playing out in public is not a good look, particularly for Guardiola, in terms of anybody who may want to employ him in the future, and this this not being sort of um a sort of private discreet um discussions that were held, but and definitely not a good look for for Italy, who look more and more desperate with every passing week.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Yeah, no, I I completely agree, and and um most people uh knowledgeable about football would be probably very surprised that he's even had discussions, tipping his toe in the water, just to see what the Italian um master strategy was all about, what they could afford from a from a budgetary perspective, because obviously he was getting paid fantastically at Manchester City, uh, but it it's not a particularly good look for Pep, and as you said, John, it's definitely makes Italy look a wee bit desperate, but they should be desperate because a c a country with the football pedigree, the number of World Cups they've won, and everything else with regards to Syria, they should be not missing out on World Cup tournaments. Um it from my perspective, based on the podcast, when I had my rant about Thomas Tuchel um after we lost to Argentina last week, I actually think it's slightly positive news because he has spoken apparently before with Brazil and with England. Uh so maybe it you know that what everyone was thinking, he's going to take a year or two off and go off to New York like he did before, or uh re completely recharge the batteries and then uh you know divorce himself from the game for a while. Maybe this this transition from Manchester City looks a bit different. So maybe the the door is slightly open for the uh English FA to go back in again.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah, and I think that's exactly the question, isn't it? Is why did he say no? Because my understanding is that it wasn't money, because he uh he had uh they Italy were going to break the bank for him and pay twice as much as their their wage cap that they had uh previously set. So it's not that. So then the only other two things really it can be is that there are some, given he was entertaining the possibility, either there is there are gremlins in the in the Italian system that he did not want to have to fight against over an ongoing period of time, or there is something else out there on the horizon which he would which he would prefer. I I don't think that there's anything, any other potential reason out there why he would say no.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I don't know about that because uh because I think that um that I think the the biggest reason why he said no, as he said, he got basically um probably one of the highest salaries in the world for a national team coach. He got offered that. He got offered almost uh complete uh freedom, total freedom in uh in his decision making. And uh, and I think that's the point also in restructuring the whole Italian football on this uh on this national team level. Because I think there are there is right now there's no bigger challenge um in in it out there in the world when it comes to uh to rebuilding a whole country when it re when it comes to football. Um but this of course is then connected to Serie A, uh with which you have to and all the clubs, because it's it's about talent recruitment and and and and talent production, right? And this this is a uh a task over over the next decade at least, and I think it's it's uh it is just too big of a task. Um and uh and of course the chance for failure is just very, very high, in my estimation, because Italy is just when you look it no matter at what parameters you look, it is just horrible, horrible, horrible. And uh, and as I said, it would take years and years to see the fruits um of the labor then. And and I think that is just not the type of um we we we spoke about uh Klopp or Jürgen Klopp. Um Jürgen Klopp would be a guy for the for this job, but even even with with him, I I would think that because a single coach is not is not solving the the problem Italy, uh Italy has endured over the last um one and a half decades uh by now, uh even more than that. Um so the task is just uh just too big. And and no money of the world can um can make many coaches uh take that task on.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

So you think it was the scale of the challenge that uh, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Especially, I mean he he came from from 10 years of Men City, incredible success, right? 17 titles, and and then um he said, I'm gonna take a break, I'm gonna spend time with family and travel. And then, of course, you don't take on a challenge in in which you will be involved if you want to be successful at least five, six, seven, eight years, right? Um, because there that there is no horizon in which he just coaches Italy's national team to the next Euros um and and and then wins wins the World Cup and then he's gone. No, that uh a win with Italy is only on the horizon, um, as I said, in like eight to ten years, probably. So yeah, just too big of a challenge, and also the um the timeline is just way, way too long.

SPEAKER_03 32:16

The one the one thing I'd say about that is that um national management, of course, if you're changing cultures and you're looking at room branch reform, that's that's a different kettle of fish. But um, but national, international um managing of football clubs, sorry, not football clubs, of nations is is a different prospect to the weekly grind of being a uh sort of a team coach, which is which uh you know that there's no gaps there at all. Whereas for a national manager, um you you do have a bit more time to to take some some space and some some breathing room. Declan, what's your sense of um of uh of that sort of that not happening between Pep and uh and Italy?

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Well, I I read reports as well that they'd had a uh a little nibble uh Ancelotti seeing if he'd come back in. And then uh Antonio Conte and Roberto Mancini, uh who have also always been in the mix before, are potentials for the for the role. Uh so I mean I I I I was really surprised when the when when the news story even broke that Pep Guardioli was talking to the Italian Federation. I'm really not surprised. I don't think either of you two are surprised that he's turned it down. So I mean it he does he definitely doesn't need the money. So, you know, I th I know he's had some challenges in his personal life. Apparently, at one point his him and his wife separated in the last uh 18 months, 24 months. So uh, you know, hopefully on the on the home front everything's back to normal again. But it's it I guess it's all to be played out because um you know Italy needs a strong leader, uh, because like I said, they they are they are too good a footballing nation to be missing from future World Cups. And obvious, and obviously if if it goes to 64 or 128 or whatever, the next two World Cups are going to be, and then they stand a very good chance. But as it stands at the moment, you know, they need to pull their socks up and they need a strong leader in the same way that Germany have made a strong decision, and everyone, German and other other nations, are excited that Klopp is taking over. Italy need to do something like that, and maybe it was just a punt, maybe it was a throw of the dice trying to get Pep involved, but fair play to them. They even tried, but I'm not surprised he turned it down.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

The thing, I think, the thing a bit about Italian football, which this kind of reveals, this approach that Pep Guardiola reveals, is that Italian football is so fundamentally Italian, it kind of doesn't really change. And it sort of seems to me that what the Italian FA are contemplating here is a uh a shift which looks at somebody coming in who is completely different and sort of uh enters into and is able to affect sort of cultural change. Again, maybe not cultural change in the same way as Klot sort of right throughout the German footballing system, but in terms of footballing culture and identity, what what it makes difficult though is if I'm right about this, and even if I'm not right, the fact that Guardiola's turned this down means that whoever ends up getting the job, if especially if they are Italian, is um is gonna absolutely know, and everybody's gonna know that they weren't the first choice, and that Italy was looking outside of Italian managers for uh to appoint somebody who they thought was going to be the had to have the best chance of success.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

And another story I heard was that Andrea Perlo, who was an absolute beautiful footballer, um who's currently in Dubai coaching over there, that he's also in the conversation as well. But his managerial record, his CV, is nothing compared to his playing CV. He's fairly limited on the managerial side. So I think it would be a massive gamble, uh, because he's definitely in the conversation as well as Man Man Mancini and Conte, uh, if they if they if they went Andrea Perlo's way. So again, we think all the news stories have finished now that the World Cup's done, but the reality is as all the diff the top leagues around the world start getting going again, and you start seeing some of these top managers going into the international scene, there's gonna be more conversation than than ever with the different national teams, and it's gonna be fascinating, obviously, the Nations League scene, because I think Paul Germany play in uh Holland, which is the Netherlands, which is a big rivalry. You know, before you know it, Italy are gonna be playing in in their Nations League game, England are gonna be playing with all of the pressure on Thomas Tuchel if he's still around. Um, so the international scene is going to come back very quickly. So just because the World Cup is done now, there is so much conversation that we're all going to be having about the leagues and the international teams. That's why we're what that's why we as a podcast keep going.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Yeah, it's um the Nations League is only two months, uh two months away, and there's some pretty significant clashes. I think a good thing about the Nations League is that there's no empty fixtures anymore. That um everything is kind of consequential. So we'll see what what emerges. And it was uh you've teed me up nicely there, uh Declan, as a reminder that we will be having a number of live recordings in Europe at the end of uh September around the Nations League matches. So more information to follow on that. Um, as always, Paul uh Declan, thank you for your time and your perspectives. Always very interesting. And we'll wait and see who Italy do appoint, because um they've got to do it soon. And um uh yeah, I mean, if if Guadiola isn't it, then um uh I'm almost certainly going to be somebody appointed internally.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, that's gonna be a very, very, very interesting thing um to see. And I think very, very decisive uh decision for the future of Italian football, if it actually is able to uh to get up again or to not. But let's hope it will, because uh to play Italy was always a very fun experience uh as a child, uh, I must say, because after that uh it didn't have to happen too often anymore. The Italian FA is juggling celery, Paul. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Um thanks, Declan, and uh look forward to talking again in the next few days.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Yeah, thanks, John. Thanks for remembering Deutschland, Visint Klopp.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Ganz genau.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Good night.