MentalityWithEbuka

What Does Consent Really Mean? | MENtality with Ebuka, Banky W & Deji Osikoya

• Ebuka Obi-Uchendu • Season 2 • Episode 7

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In this episode of MENtality with Ebuka, host Ebuka Obi-Uchendu is joined by co-host Banky Wellington, alongside media personality, actor and influencer, Deji Osikoya, for a thoughtful and necessary conversation on consent, respect, and healthy relationships.

The discussion explores why consent remains one of the most misunderstood aspects of relationships, masculinity, and power, particularly within many African societies where conversations around sexual boundaries, mutual respect, and personal agency are often avoided or shaped by cultural expectations. The episode examines what consent truly means beyond simply hearing "yes" or "no," highlighting the importance of communication, emotional intelligence, empathy, and respect in building healthy relationships.

Together, the guests unpack how cultural conditioning, gender stereotypes, and entitlement can influence attitudes and behaviours, while challenging long-held assumptions about masculinity and interpersonal relationships. The conversation ultimately reframes consent not as a limitation, but as an expression of dignity, responsibility, trust, and mutual respect between individuals.

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MENtality With Ebuka is a production of Knight & Sheriff and EME.

SPEAKER_02

On today's episode of Mentality with Ebuka, consent remains one of the most misunderstood conversations around relationships, masculinity, and power. With my co-host Banky W, we have a chat with media personality and influencer Deji Oshikoya. This season of mentality with Abuka is brought to you by Schwepps and the Glen Lee Vett. Good to see you. Thank you so much. On a very interesting day on the show. Alright.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

You like a cocktail? What? Yes, please. That'll be nice. Please say you know you know what I want. Yes, ladies and gentlemen. As you can see, we have here with us the dejoya. He's uh DJoshikoya.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my dear.

SPEAKER_02

He likes to be humble, but you know, we have to give you your flowers, even if you feel like the flowers are not ready.

SPEAKER_01

Just like I'm going to add another like 300k to my rate.

SPEAKER_02

Media personality. Um, are you an influencer?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I think people have started to ask me to influence things to make sure. I also act. Yeah, act. Oh, yeah, that's true. You also act as well. Yeah, I host things. Yes. And you have an interesting podcast. Yes, yes, with an S. With an S is an Afrobeats related podcast for a couple years. I love the name With An S. That's dope. Afrobeats with S. With an S, yeah, that's dope. That's dope.

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really honored, man. You guys already know from the show how much I admire you both. So like this is a privilege for me.

SPEAKER_02

We paid him to say that. But unfortunately, we're not talking Afrobeats here today, ladies and gentlemen. You're welcome to Mentality with Abu Kahn. Today we're talking consent. A pretty heavy one. He's an authority. I don't know if he is an authority. But you know, I why I think you're appropriate for this is um whether you're Gen Z or not, you're young. Yeah. And I think in the last couple of years, a lot of us millennials or older millennials, Gen X, boomers, whatever, the world sort of put everybody back in check to realize that, you know, some things we let slide or thought were okay. Actually, you're not. You know, I was saying earlier these days when you watch back certain series, friends, um, all of these shows back in the day that were like cultural moments for us growing up. Yep. And you see how some of the conversations were so awkward, even like movies, they're just like have you ever rewatched Rush Hour?

SPEAKER_00

Like, it's so weak today's eyes, and you're just like, eh, and you know, they have to put a warning here in front of you now to be like a new one, right?

SPEAKER_02

Just to make another rush, please don't try and fix things out. But all of this, you look through at things with different lens now. I think me too also just blew everybody's mind. Like, okay, um, consent is not even always just physical. Yeah, sometimes it's things you say. You know, um, there's a gun. We're gonna get into all of that, but I think the governor of New York at the time, Cuomo, who lost his job for things he said that in the past we would have thought were compliments, but were inappropriate. And in his eyes, it's like, but I was just being complimentary. They're like, no, you were saying things that were uncomfortable. It's a very interesting, but I think it's also opened everybody's eyes. Yeah. And maybe for us now, as we become even parents, you understand why it's also important.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um, because you're raising kids in a different world now. But I want to start this conversation with a phrase I saw recently about how in the past they would say no means no, but now they tell you only yes means yes. Um, and you know what that means. Um, the context of, I guess in the past, they would tell you if someone tells you no, it might not necessarily mean no, it's them trying to form or play hard to guess. Hard to guess was a very interesting phrase for just playing how to guess, keep apply pressure. But now, if you've not expressly heard yes, nothing else matters. What's your take on things as an older millennial man?

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I think I think you you put it um well when you said it's shifted from no means no to only yes means yes. And I think it really speaks to just this idea that back in the day there was this notion of like the gray area, right? Where it was like, oh, you know, you have to be, you have to apply pressure, you know, and just this idea of there being a gray area, but now it's like that's it, that can be a very slippery slope. And so it's the elimination of the gray area that there really is no gray area, and it's about respect, it's about dignity, it's about honor, and just being clear that you are allowed to proceed with whatever level of intimacy that you are, you know, that you are gunning for. Um, you know, I this conversation is interesting for me because I've I've lived in a certain era, and you know, I'm in a certain era and a certain place in my own personal journey now. And the way that I see it is like, you know, the Bible says we're all made in the image of God, right? And if you truly believe that everybody is made in God's image, then respect is not optional and honor is not optional. You have to kind of approach any of these situations with those things in mind, and you know, that's where consent is is critical, really.

SPEAKER_01

You know, an added part, added part to that is outside of even just yes being yes, they almost say that you should have an exclamation mark at the end of the yes. So it's not enough that it's a yes, it has to be an enthusiastic yes. That's the extra layer, that's the extra layer that's kind of come out to it now, where it's like a person can say yes, but their body language might not agree. Their general just attitude in the moment might not agree. So it has to be more so that you know for a fact that this is something that they want to engage in as well. I think that's fairly recent, I would say, maybe in the last 10 years, that's another aspect of it as well. It has to be an enthusiastic, yes. And I'm I'm gonna play devil's advocate a lot today.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. Um, but also because I also want us to learn as much as we can. Because what you say now is very, very interesting. Um, this whole only yes means yes uh situation brings up the fact that you know, in the past, you would say she didn't say no, even. But her body language, while she was in my bed, you know, you you would read body language a lot, or you would in the past. And then that years down the line, you're like, you now start hearing series of words. I never told you yes. And guys would say, but you came to the house, you stayed in my bed, you didn't push me away. In all of this, which brings back now to what you're saying. You're saying even when they say yes, you still need to read body language, and a lot of guys now tell you they don't really know what consent is, which is why this conversation is important. So, at what point, if yes, even yes is not enough, yeah. It has to be a yes that you think is meant. I don't know if I'm making sense, but it just feels like a lot of guys will tell you now they don't even know what I think it's a great point. It really is.

SPEAKER_01

It's a great point because one of the conversations that's also evolved from the conversation is how much power is skewed or how much responsibility falls on the man. Right. So think about when if two people, for example, decide to engage in intercourse and they're both drunk, the power dynamic still skews in favor of the man, where it's like you have more physical power in most cases, so therefore we're going to hold you liable, despite the fact that both people might have been inebriated and affected by the alcohol. And then the other side of that as well, I think it's also just with um when you think about dynamics at play. I understand that the arguments for enthusiasm because if, for example, you're stronger, or for maybe you run into a girl who's a bit more timid and not able to share things as easily as you might, the onus is on you. It has to be on you, especially, I mean, the way society has described like how sexual relationships go down, anyways, for the most part, it would be the man. And I understand how difficult it might be, but every time I think about the power dynamics of play, it's just hard for me to not feel for women and like empathize with them in that way.

SPEAKER_00

What do you think about? Because I I think you I agree with you completely. Um, the power dynamics definitely skews towards the man. Um, I've seen something recently, and I yeah these topics are always very dangerous in mindfield. But what do we think about like this? Um there have been a few cases recently where the man has been found not guilty of like rape. And I had always been on some I believe women, you know, and that's generally where I stand.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But there have been a couple of high-profile cases where you know the man was found not guilty, or the woman, I think there was something, there was a girl online who like made something up, made an entirely false accusation up. There's been one or two cases that I've seen that kind of, and I'm not really on social media as much as this, but I've seen a couple where it's there's now cause for concern where is there a blanket, like how do we then tackle these situations as a society going forward? Because it's it's not as cut and dry as I always thought that it was. Yeah. So what do you any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02

I think so, you know, which is where I know there was a lot of drama around the compass. The incident you're talking about, even sort of cuts Simi in the crosshairs. Yeah, in the crosshairs and the crossfires and all of that. And you know, um, the argument though, in a lot of women or people who believe, you know, like you said, the power is always cute to men, is one or two of these situations doesn't necessarily invalidate the larger conversation.

SPEAKER_03

That's true.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but it because of the kind of times we live in and you know how there's a lot of pushback now from the manosphere uh on conversations like this, moments like this become so amplified that it's now used to sort of blur the entire picture um as a whole. But the truth is that all of us are learning, I think, what this content of a thing is. Um I think the the one thing everybody should keep at the back of their minds is something he said earlier about, or something we started with about only yes works, right? But the yes to has to come from if you if a girl doesn't want to be around you, you kind of know. If we're being honest with ourselves, but we also catch ourselves in situations where we either want to score a point, we need to brag about it, ah, that'll give you baby, don't follow now, you know. Um, there's also the power dynamic or money dynamic where you feel like, okay, I've paid you or I've paid for your transports. Um you should then fulfill the other side of the obligation. I've said this a lot on this show about some of these lyrics we hear where, and those lyrics are a reflection of what the reality is. When you hear someone say, I put you on a boat to Ilashe, right? What did you expect was going to happen in Ilashe?

SPEAKER_00

That's in the song. Yeah, I don't listen to music by the book. Yeah, Ruga.

SPEAKER_02

Really? Yeah. It's like you've entered the boat to Ilashe, uh-huh. Oh, and you know what was saying. First of all, do you know where Elasha is? Do you know how much boats is? It's funny, but these are the things. So if this is music and this is a lyric, it means it's it's the norm. And people are singing along to it, and you know, and when it came out, to be fair, there was a lot of debate. Feminists sort of pushed back on that particular line, like, what are you insinuating? Yeah, he didn't really answer anybody, it became a hit song, and everybody just sort of moved on, but it just tells you where people's heads are at. That's now at that point, where do you require consent? You should, yeah, but this is where a lot of people's heads are at, and it just I guess to just put this in to wrap it up my point, it's basically saying yes should mean yes, but at the same time, we live in a time where there's things that are used to blur the line, and it now just completely deviates from the conversation, like I said, whether it's false accusations. Yeah, there are false accusations, but are they overwhelming enough to distract from the actual points? There's all of these conversations about sex or whatever, it has been extremely transactional now. I guess you can speak more on it. But everything is about we don't marry. Everything is very transactional. You know, I paid for this, I bought you here, I did this, what did you expect? You know, so yeah, I don't know if those conversations should be had together or if constant is a separate conversation from all of this. There might be.

SPEAKER_01

But going back to his original, I'll try and get back to it. But going back to his original points, I think it's such a like it's a mindful, even as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, I'm making sure that I have my words correct. Where it's like, how do you approach the conversation of the possibility of a false accusation? The simplistic side of me wants to say everything should be treated on a case-by-case basis, right? That's a very simple answer to give. However, the waters get very muddy where it's like you have situations where people say, Oh, go to the police, and then the police aren't particularly helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Especially in Nigeria.

SPEAKER_01

Especially in Nigeria, they're not particularly helpful, or people ask questions like, What were you wearing, and things of that nature. So that kind of makes a case-by-case basis not extremely appealing to the average woman because it's like, look at all the different things that I'm going to have to deal with to just be believed in the first place. It's it's not a simple answer. I don't think there's a simple answer to define it because I think ultimately, as a man, in as much as you can't compare the despair that comes with being a woman who constantly has to be on her toes and is looking out in public. And I heard that a lot of women are constantly looking for escape routes when they go to events, and that's not something that we necessarily deal with. At the same time, I don't like that the feeling side of it is completely disregarded as far as a man is concerned. Yes, it does not compare. If you ever bring a conversation in which sexual abuse is tallied next to how I feel about being potentially accused of something, I'll always lose. However, that feeling exists. And I'm not saying that you necessarily have to consider it, but it exists. So it it it it matters to a degree as long as it exists, you know. And that's one of the sides of it that's very tough for me. So I don't have the answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But I do know that there's so many layers to this thing that it's there are many layers, and you know, you you bring up a great point because we don't, you know, it it is a sensitive topic, it's an important one, and we don't want to get it wrong. And we're not pretending like we're experts. When we said it's an expert, not joking is. So I've done quite a bit of advocacy work in like the sexual assault space, gender-based violence, and the victims that we've seen were overwhelmingly female, right? Um, there's a fantastic place that um when we were working with the European Union and a place called the Mirabel, Mirabelle Center in the world. And they've done a lot of work just supporting survivors of gender-based violence and sexual assault. And I remember when we were kind of having conversations with them and just understanding the scale of the problem, at the time, they told us that the oldest survivor that they were working with was a 70-plus-year-old grandmother, and their youngest survivor was a less than one-year-old infant girl who had been assaulted by, I think, an uncle or something like that. So when you see that scale and just the extreme like of like violence and crime and just the despicable state of things, you can kind of understand why we say, like, this thing is beyond what did this person wear or not. Because what does a grandmother or an infant girl wear that justifies the behavior of some guys? The scale was insane. It maybe even is so bad. Like I've heard horror stories. I've even heard horror stories from people that are closer to me that I'm not at liberty to share. There's a time somebody that was working with one of the companies that I dealt with, and she was telling me about her husband and what her husband was positioning to do, which made her pick her her daughter and run for their lives from the marriage. So it's like, you know, when when we've gotten to that depth, we've sunk to that depth as a society, it's like, okay, we, you know, all guns are, we need it, we need to put everything on the table to try and bring us back to a place of sanity.

SPEAKER_02

So you talk about you know us not having the answers, and I don't think that's what we're trying to do here.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I think sometimes there are certain things that start with hard truths and speaking to your own kind. Because you find ladies tell you a lot of times, what do you tell your friends, you know, when you part? Because a lot of men trivialize or maybe don't understand how deep some of these things are and how much it is on us to start to have a shift. I was just trying to go through some data um on all of this, and I want us to get into all of the cultural nuances that come with it, um, peer pressure, um, and things along those lines. Now, the Federal Ministry of Women Affairs um did a study that was very, very interesting. So here's what they found. First of all, one in three Nigerian women have been sexually have had sexual violence methods. One in three, thirty-three percent.

SPEAKER_00

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02

Although there's a lot of underreporting, yeah. So if there's a hundred million Nigerian women, 30 million have had some kind of experience, which is really wild to me. Another study, this was even from an international organization, found that 37%. So they did a study of over 30,000 students in Nigerian universities, and 37% of Nigerian students have experienced sexual violence in universities. And that's why I brought up peer pressure because even I growing up and you're in school in Nigeria, for those of us that schooled here, you find certain conversations come at a certain age where you are seen as, okay, you're now becoming a man. How do you show that you are? How do you express that masculinity or manliness? How many people have you slept with? Yeah, your body counts has to be a certain number. Even in that body count, what kind of girl have you also slept with? So is it this girl that nobody really rates, or is this other babe that is Oma? You mean you got that girl? So there's also ego attached to it. So you find people who lie and say, Wow, sometimes they catch it. You find this guy, you know, get game like definitely lied. But I I definitely lie. I'm not even going to say what your body can't be high, or you need to drop certain names, and then listen, like, oh boy, they're not me. You know, people have those things, but there are people who also not go the extra mile to actually basically sexually assault people because they want to have a story to tell, or because their friends have told them they did it and got away with it. And you are that age where they tell you your frontal lobe is not fully formed until you're 25. People are highly impressionable whether you like it or not, in university. That 18 to 23 age range, you're trying to prove whatever it is you're trying to prove. So and it's that demographic that I feel like needs to understand. I mean, we say rightfully as that young people are have opened our eyes up to what this thing is, but they're also the most susceptible to the manosphere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And this podcast culture of take what is yours, even if it's a woman. Phew. Jesus. You know, and so then there's also the cultural angle to it, where a lot of our traditions, our cultures place the man on a certain pedestal. Yeah. Where we have mostly very patriarchal societies in this country. It's why polygamy is almost accepted in virtually every culture in Nigeria. Yes, religion has made that shift. You hardly find many religions where women can marry multiple men, it's always the other. Way around, yeah. So the man owns the woman in certain places for a long time, up until recently, certain things couldn't be done by women, besides until the man approves. So we have this cultural mindset. So, with that in mind, how dare a woman tell you no? Is the belief. It's like, how what do you mean I want this and you're telling me no? The one that blows people's minds now the most, which is the conversation that is even still happening now. I see that on Twitter a lot recently, is marital rape. A lot of guys cannot, for the life of them, understand that a woman I married, no, a woman I paid for is not in the mood, and you tell me I should leave her. So the the mental shifts is the game is long. It's what I'm saying. The work is long, it's hard. There's a lot that still needs to change. It's cultural, there's peer pressure, there's the internet now feeding you things about what a man should be. There's your ego involved. And unfortunately, because even globally, internationally, rape is one of the hardest crimes to prove.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's also one of the most underreported because there's a lot of shame attached to it. So most times men get away with it. So for them, it's like, I will do it anyway because I'll probably get away with it. Then you find people who come out maybe six, seven years later because they are braver now and they say what happened to them. There's now the burden of, well, how do we believe you? Yeah. It's not, there's no scar to show. Yeah. There's no proof of what was stolen. It makes it very hard to prove anything. Yeah. Um ultimately the honest is on men. Yeah. Like you said, we're not here to change the world instantly, but we need to start telling ourselves the truth about certain things. We're gonna go into later the flip side of it where men are also sexually harassed in Nigeria. We touched on it a bit in one of our former episodes with IK and uh Murewa and all of them. I have a quick question, if you don't mind. Yeah, we'll get to that. Just say what it also does mentally, where boys are molested, but it's celebrated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's against so it's also it's all here. Yeah. Ah, my house helped rape me at nine. Oh, are you serious? Ah, you don't did job since then. Is the reply? It's not even seen as a problem.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, sorry, go on. Um, so something I've always thought about because when when conversations come up on social media and women say things like, you should have these conversations with your friend. For the most part, with my immediate friend group, like the men in my life, they're very curated because I'm very strict. I have way more female friends than I do male friends because I feel like it's just easier. The likelihood of me ever hearing questionable stuff from my female friends is significantly lower, such that when I meet new guys, it's like I you're jumping through hoops, man. Because I can't I I need somebody that I can vouch for. Do you know what I mean? So with that, I'm pretty much, I'm not saying conclusively, but in my immediate circle, there are no people to really have those conversations with. And if I was going to have those conversations, we'll pretty much be on the same page. So then how does a person like me, and I'm also opening this up to you as well, because I imagine that you have your close male friend groups as well, how then do we, I guess, advocate better in those types of relationships? Because with me, the second I even hear that you're questionable, there's just an X on you. You just notice that we're speaking less, we're hanging around less. If somebody comes and reports you to meet, yeah, our relationship is terminated, or it will die a slow death. So I wonder how then, what what is the avenue for people who are curating their groups? So people who hold themselves to a higher standard to then advocate with men or just in, I don't know, have conversations.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think you bring up a good point because the age old saying is that birds of a feather flock together, right? So your circle of people around you tolerate for the most part will be what you tolerate. You might have similar systems of value, you know, you may not agree on everything, but at least you'll be trying to pull in the same direction. So, how to then advocate beyond the people that are already in line with your thinking becomes the question. I think that's probably where a platform like this comes, you know, come becomes important. You know, I've had situations where I'm walking about and they're telling me, oh, I make my sons sit down and watch Mentality with Ebuka or me and my guys go together and we watch the show. I think we've entered an era where it's starting to dawn on us that we've left these conversations sometimes to not the wise, the loudest voices in the room, but not the wisest ones. And so you have the manosphere conversations being dictated by certain kind of thinking. And the danger with that is that there's a whole generation of young men who that's what they're getting their education about what it means to be a man from. Whereas there are enough of us who we've made our mistakes, we're not perfect, we've we've we've had bad decisions, but we've learned from those things, and we're at least trying to build back better, but we're not having these conversations enough where people can listen in and say, Oh, you know, I learned something today and I can I can adjust the way that I move. So I think for me, you know, the more of these kinds of shows and using the media to kind of put these narratives out there, the better it will be for the generations that are coming after us. Um my worldview is shaped, and you know, the people know this about me by now, my worldview is shaped largely by my faith. And in coming, taking those steps of faith, you start to unlearn things that you've learned about what it means to be a man, right? So growing up, you hear things like like Ebuka was saying, you know, uh, how many women have you slept with, or you know, you had a sexual experience at 11 years old, and you know, you are the guy amongst your guys, and those things plant seeds in your mind as to what being a man means. And then you you you know, you come into the faith, and the faith teaches you that self-control is a fruit of the spirit, and that true strength is not getting other people to submit to you, it's gaining mastery over yourself and being able to be disciplined and being able to make the right decisions for yourself. And that is a whole journey of unlearning things that have been implanted in you from when you were a child. Yeah, you know, so that's been the journey that some of us have been on. But I think the more that we can have conversations to be like, you know, and we had a conversation on one other episode about showing scars, right? Because a lot of times people look at people who have reached a certain level of success or a certain stature in society, and you just Oh, this is the gloss. You just see the gloss, you just see the win. Yeah, you don't see that this person has gone through certain things and made certain choices and dealt with certain demons and has now come out on the other side of that. And while I understand the need to protect wounds because wounds are still things that you are healing from, when it has gotten past the point of a wound, too, it's now a scar. So it's evidence that there was a wound at some point, but it's also evidence of hey, I said evidence. My robust side is strong. Oh, it's also evidence that you've a scar is also evidence that you've healed. Yeah. And that there's a story to tell. Yeah. And I think maybe we could do more to show our scars and say, you know, I, you know, I and even there, there's a there's a worry that's in showing those scars, you know, are you opening yourself up to being dragged by by the internet? Yeah, that part.

SPEAKER_02

That's okay, go. Yeah, that's that's what I wanted to touch on as well. Because when you were talking about how we how we contribute to this conversation, the truth is, yes, we all kind of, by the grace of God, find ourselves in circles where we don't have to preach that. So the honors is now on us to speak in certain spaces. Yes, on social media. And the truth is, I mean, even on this show, with the episode I've come out, people have gyms. We have seen comments on our YouTube calling us simps. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you are the guy who's not throwing that sort of extreme right wing line, yeah, and I beggie. So you also should also know that that's going to be the feedback you get for just saying what you believe in and saying what you think is is right. But uh, another data I wanted to push with that as well. So I saw here it's it's a PMC um data from the American Library of Medicine. They did a review here in Nigeria, okay, which was very interesting. And they said in the last five years, I want to be sure what year this was done, so I know what five years is 2023. So I guess that's from 2018 to 2023, as I when it was done, online conversation about consent grew by 72,000 percent. Wow, so what I think that is is, and conversations can't be had in a silo. You're not just talking about it's good to rip. It means there's it means there's back and forth. Yeah, and I think that's healthy for whatever it is. It means at least people are having conversations. 72,000 is a huge and astronomical difference to the fact that maybe people were never talking about these things before. Now, what kind of conversations are being had is a whole other you know, talk on its own. And I like what you mentioned about you know people coming up to you to talk about this. I think the I'm not saying the fight is lost with older older people, but we all know that it's easier to teach kids than to correct men, or to teach boys and correct men. Yeah, and I always tell that to parents now if you have a child who's still impressionable, this is the time. Yeah, because a lot of who you are, did you today is because of how you were shaped. Absolutely. Yes, you are still doing the hard work, but it's because of what's or where you came from and the kind of you know how you were shaped as a young man. It's harder to get a man now in his 30s or 40s to say stop this thing. They might stop it, but do they think it's wrong? Yeah, is a whole other conversation. So I think the honest now is on okay, there's still a future that we can secure. Those of us who have boys or those of us who have nephews or friends, or even those of us that have girls who have girls as well, have those conversations and start to shape their minds to know what is right or wrong. So interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, no, I was just gonna say something real quick on what you just said about now being in a position where we're the parents. Who made us parents? Like, first of all, it's like a joke.

SPEAKER_03

This is like we're the parents now.

SPEAKER_00

Um, we're not serious, anyway. Um, but it's it's a thing where it's like I was listening to uh my pastor, Pastor Stephen Chandler, was teaching a message about parenting, and somebody asked a question, and they said, How do you know at what point to have these hard conversations about like sex and you know what when do you have the those? Because in our time, they we didn't even have the conversation. You forgot to or they had very soft conversations, yeah. And he said something that I thought was very wise. He said, There's no like one size fits all response as to when to teach to have the sex conversations with your child. You just have to make sure that you have the conversation with them before the world does, which I thought was very powerful. Because I have a five-year-old son now, and one, I don't want him to wrestle with the demons that I did, but I also don't want him to discover the demons that are out there based on what the world might try to feed him. So I'm constantly thinking about my wife and I are constantly thinking about okay, when do we? So we've had conversations about like your what are your private parts, don't let anybody touch this. You can always come to mama and papa about anything. Yeah, but we're gauging, like based on what we see him talk about and all of that, to know when is the right moments to be like, let's sit down and have because those things are happening earlier, you know, and in our time, you know, God bless our parents, they did the best they could, but a lot of people had sexual experiences very early as children. Yes, especially, I mean, I don't know. Um I speak for guys because I know a lot of guys' stories. It was a nanny or a house help or an auntie or a cousin, a cousin, or an older girl in the school who was in SS3 and you're in JS1 or JS2. So, you know, now that we're this much more aware, how how do you and and I'm also asking you because your kids are a little older than mine. Like, have you already had the sex conversation? Or when do you know?

SPEAKER_02

So, like you said, it's not you don't wait for a time. There are phases, like you've had the private part conversation with your son. There are phases to things, right? In another two years, there's girlfriend conversations happening in your son's class already, I can assure you. From like year one, year two. It's like jokes. My daughter is in her fourth year. I know those conversations have already been had. And once you kind of know or notice it, you have to have the conversation, okay, this is what this means. You might not necessarily go deep into like sex at that point, but now they are starting to figure out boys and girls and what that looks like. So my point just basically being it's not a one-time thing to at each point you know what needs to be said or addressed. Like I said in my daughter's class, there's I mean, nothing crazy has happened, at least to my knowledge. But we've heard there was a time someone sent someone to come and tell someone no that I he likes her. You know, things like that, you're just like, hmm. Yeah, this is getting there already, right? And you have to start. And I, for example, went to secondary school at 10. My daughter is going to be 10 this year, and we know what happens in secondary school. Yeah. So you're now wondering, okay, is it really time now to go in on this conversation? But I've had a conversation with her about boys, okay. And why it's not a bad thing to have male friends, but where the line is and when it's now time to call mommy, if you're more comfortable talking to mommy or daddy. But someone has to know if it's in school and someone says something, because now we're still dealing with what is said, not necessarily what is done. Yeah, this teacher is there first. That's the first person you need to report to. And I guess it's the same with you, but building a relationship with your kids where they can come and talk, they actually tell you things, yeah, and it's learning not to be jarred by what you can't show that reaction. Um something, something else to like. They just tell you, they'll be like, Oh, okay. So, when was that?

SPEAKER_03

When they're not going to be like, Jesus, you're not discreeting to your wife, like men.

SPEAKER_02

How old are these people again? But they tell you because once you react, they know that there's something wrong. And then they are now next time. And I have one of my kids is very perceptive. She's telling you things that she's watching to see so the next time she either doesn't tell you or she waters it down because she thinks it means she's in trouble. Uh yeah, as the games are what she's saying is what you're trying to like, you know, it's not you. Yeah, so yeah, just you have to just keep this, it's very hard.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. Something else that I was going to add to that. I actually saw this on the timeline recently, which is why, like, as a knowing as a resource that Twitter is also extremely useful. Um, it was a lady who was talking about the private part conversation that you guys brought up. And her stance on it was that even that conversation itself needs to evolve, where it's like it's not just a private part conversation, it's a boundaries conversation, period point blank. Because the way that she noted it. That was the first conversation we had, actually, boundaries. Yeah. Like, and the way that she noted it, and it made so much sense was that that sort of abuse or assault does not start from private parts, it starts from a hold on the shoulder that lingers a little too long, yeah, a hand on the back. You know, so I think added to that conversation is also the need for, I guess, parents to be malleable, or it's like you can't be so rigid on what you think is the approach. Yeah. Because, yeah, like she said, it's not just private parts. It's like, why is he holding your hand that way? Why is he robbing like that thing that people would do back in the day? Like, there's so many different layers to that conversation as well, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, credit to my wife because she's she's I think she's really wise in these things. Because when we've had those conversations, she she like progressed it beyond just these are the private parts, but to this idea of like boundaries and things that make you feel uncomfortable. And if anybody, you know, touches you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, this is what to do, this is what to say, this is who to come to. And it's just it's tricky, man, because we're the parents now. You know, we are. I mean, you know, I know I don't I don't want to, my parents are amazing, you know, but coming up, like we didn't have those conversations like that, you know, and I think they even had less, you know what I mean? Like, at least my mom at one point called me and my brothers, sat everybody down, and put a video on where like somebody got pregnant, somebody got A's, everybody died. Like, it was just this like horror story, and then she was like, You understand what happened? I get it, don't touch anybody, don't do anything. But you could see that they were trying with the limited tools that they're not comfortable comfortable.

SPEAKER_02

My mom, my mom is a nurse, so she works in the medical field. You would expect that they would be able to she was a matron. These are people that it was in one sentence. I was going to university, so I'll finish secondary school where I could have probably had 600 babies. Going to the unit, she's like, Don't go and bring anybody pregnant. Basically, she was it was a condom conversation. Use condoms, you can't bring any children back home. It was basically it, but it kind of stuck with me. It worked, I won't lie. Because condom first, but that was it, yeah. And I keep thinking back if I was this guy who I was 16 already at that time. People get sexually active. Yeah, sometimes seven years before that, anything could have happened.

SPEAKER_00

So there was a video, wasn't there like a thing where these kids went on a trip, what some secondary school in Lagos? They went on a trip, yeah, and they there was like a video that was that the kids was recording like they were teenagers, they weren't even 16.

SPEAKER_02

I've I've I've heard of I heard of something like that. School in Lagos where tapes licked, yeah, and they were sort of distributing it amongst themselves, like students, and this was like SS1.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like 14 to 15 students, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They're about yeah, it feels like for this next generation, fear is not a good enough detail. No, it really is, though. I think, at least from me growing up, like that conversation, those types of things, they scared you straight to a degree where even if you were curious, there was like that disincentive at the back of your head. But like this next generation is far more curious than I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_02

I think ultimately, which is what I think by the grace of God I kind of have for now. So we are not necessarily having a fear conversation, but you're instilling in your kids the need to be afraid of coming back home with certain stories or situations, like the consequences because what those conversations did to us is uh you're afraid of you don't want to disgrace your family, is how we say it in Nigeria. So generally, you want to put that in your kids' minds with everything. I didn't let me not disgrace these people, yeah, as against it being about just sex, so it's yeah, all encompassing, yeah, and that sort of helps. So even when you're having a sex conversation, I'm not actually saying if you Gary Bellet, but you are they already kind of know that, okay, we don't do that here, yeah. And when we're talking, I was trying to look at how you have conversations with kids. Um and well, I think I'm kind of on track, but let's just put it in context two to six years old start with body autonomy conversations. So that's what we talk about boundaries, right? Okay, for a girl, this is this, don't let anybody touch you here. Your body belongs to you. And I think we've had that conversation. I guess that's what you say you've done as well. Five to ten is now where you start talking about you know, you ask a lot and listen. And I think I did that a lot as well, because that's when you're not trying to discover, like you said, what has he heard? What does he know? What does she know? What is being said in their school at this point or amongst their friends? But then from seven, you introduce emotions and empathy. So it's basically even if it's not them, if they see something being done, what's their reaction? Are they incentivized to do it, or do they speak up? Or do they and that's where the reporting also comes into that? And my daughter, I think, has done that a few times when they come back and say, Oh, this person did this to this person. Oh, so what happened? Oh, we now told the teacher. So you know that okay, okay. There's something at least you know, there's some sense in what they're doing. The fourth step now from nine to their teens is digital consent, which is what I want us to get into now. Digital consent, yes. And it's the whole thing, even with older people, digital consent, sexting, harassing people on social media, um, revenge porn, where you lick people's nudes just because you know all of these uh phases now, and that's more prevalent now, I guess with even the younger generation, because we don't, I mean, we didn't grow up needing to do that by the grace of God, but it happens now where you know you DM someone and you almost feel like, oh, you don't want to answer me, I'll be I'm going to lick our DMs or whatever it is. And yeah, if people don't think that's sexual harassment, because I've never even met this person, or we didn't even have anything physical, but apparently digitally, it's a thing now. People go to jail for it for how you interact with um with people online. And I know I don't know if this is also now a man versus woman conversation still, um, and who is more guilty of that, but it is a thing, yeah. And you find, and it's apparently even most responsible for suicide in women than physical harassment because the fear of the unknown, because because of what the internet is, yeah. If someone threatens you on the internet, you're already picturing the whole world is about to find out this thing, and the impact is felt deeper than if something happened to me here and I feel like I can sort of block it out, if you know what I mean. Yeah, so it's probably even more a danger, apparently. And I don't know, I don't know how to address that conversation, but it's a thing, is basically what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01

Very random thing that I've been thinking about for a while. As parents, would you be open to your schools, the schools that your children attend, having social media etiquette classes? Because I feel like the older that we get, I feel like there's no getting around it. Because, and we had this conversation in the back room. When social media originated, it was like this very new terrain that nobody really had any great understanding of. And as such, people took liberties. This was the first time they were in a place where your parents didn't really have any real access, they didn't really care. So people made all sorts of crazy jokes. I mean, the dude who was the fintech guy who got like removed from the company because he had lots of wild jokes, as much as that was crazy, that was the terrain. That was the terrain. So I'm wondering if outside of even just having the conversations at parent as parents, if that's probably something that should be entrenched into the curriculum, because ah man, it's that's the world that they're going into.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think I think schools will have to evolve with the times and address more than they traditionally talk about.

SPEAKER_02

So they don't have sex education.

SPEAKER_00

Well, no, sex education, but he's even talking about like social media, like social media etiquette, morality, how to handle it, how to navigate that space. I think it's it is necessary for the schools. But I also think that just like with the sex conversation, my kids should hear about it from me first. Fair before the school does, because I don't know what the school is going to teach, and I don't know to what level. And I don't want the school to be the first to plant certain seeds in my children's minds. So I want them to hear about sex from me first, to hear about social media from me first, to hear about whatever it is, like the home is like the first line of defense. Yeah. Um, and if I do a good enough job, if we do a good enough job as parents, then the school should be able to hopefully add to that conversation, but not leave, not initiate it and leave questions in their minds that they're now, like you said, trying to gauge whether you're curious about it and also gauge how much of this is okay to discuss with papa or mama. Like, you know, am I going to get into trouble? I have questions about this. Like, we should have already put it on the table before this school comes to dress it up.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, but I do think that schools absolutely listen. We've been teaching kids the same way for hundreds of years. Yeah. Hundreds of years, it's been the same, and the world has changed so much in that time, you know. So and kids now are very aware of a lot of things. Yeah, they are. The world, man, listen.

SPEAKER_02

If your son came to you now, sorry to put it please.

SPEAKER_00

Go ahead. Six years old, five, but yeah. Yeah, I'm saying. Don't rush me.

SPEAKER_02

What's a virgin? Oof.

unknown

Dr.

SPEAKER_02

GPT. Did you say the first time you really did? Dr. GPT, how does um and this is how just blots it out. And we've never even had the nope, it just came.

SPEAKER_00

What's a virgin? Yeah. Okay, I'll I would I would first start by trying to explain in a way that he can understand what sex is, and that means it's a failure on me because I haven't already, he's already having those questions and I haven't had that conversation. But I'd I'd first have to try and set the table that there's a thing that grown-ups do, you know, that mama and papa did, that, you know, when two people are married because we're Christian, only we're married and we love each other. Um, you know, there's a way that we be, you know, we get physical and intimate with each other. I wouldn't use those words. I need to go and do some walks to prepare myself. But I would first try to set that tone and then say, you know, then you now explain what you know what a virgin is on top of that. It's and I'm I know that I'm getting to that place with Zaire because he's five. And he's asking more and more just intelligent questions, yeah, intellectual questions, and you now need to discover as a parent how do I explain this in a way that he can grasp. And that's really the phase that I'm in now. And he's coming with those questions every other day.

SPEAKER_02

The thing about the questions at those ages is it's not one question.

SPEAKER_00

And it's like, why?

SPEAKER_02

Plenty of follow-ups. Yeah. So what I what I've because that happened to me. They asked you what a virgin was? Please tell me what's right. So that's how I wanted it worked, but I just want to help out. Tell me, give me a chance. Now my kid was six, I just comes into the living room and blots out the same way I said it, Daddy. What is a virgin? So now I had this, I heaved. What I do, which maybe might help other people. I was my first instinct is to ask a question. Where did you hear that? That's what I first do. Yeah, that helps me because if you heard it in if a boy is so I said, Where did you hear that? Because I'm not trying to get context. Now, at the time she had just started catechism because she's trying to get first holy communion. I'm Catholic, and we go to these catechism classes to learn about the church before you get and uh talks about the Virgin Mary, and she was trying to understand why the she was qualified with the word virgin, and I said, Did you ask the teacher? She was like, No, and I said, Okay. Um, so I use so here's for me, she's six, right? There's only so much she can take on she can take on at a time.

SPEAKER_00

Sorry, if you know the way my heart is beating, right? Yeah, so I didn't hang in on everyone.

SPEAKER_02

I went down the route of Mary being pure and being chosen by God to be Jesus' mother, okay, and that's what virginity in that context means. Ah, so you didn't even go into I didn't go into the sexuality of it, but I still said but God is Jesus' father, and God put Jesus in Mary's belly because she was pure. There was the way I phrased it, but then her follow-up was phrased it. I did try and learn her follow-up was now. I think I qualified also saying unlike where daddy and mommy make a baby. I said something along those lines. This happened a few while ago, so I'm not really guessing the age. And I remember her saying, Oh, how do daddy and mommy make a baby? And that's when I said, Have you said, No, I didn't say go to your room. I was like, you won't. I said if I explain this, you won't really understand it, but you're gonna get to a point where you will do a subject called biology and it will be explained to you better. But yes, daddy and mommy make a baby, and it's for adults, it's an adult thing, but she understood virginity in the context of purity. And I was okay with that. Now, why I remembered it is she's she's nine now, and she remembered that conversation is and she was like, Oh, that's when she saw the word again, she now remembered what I told her that virginity is, and now we've had a little more context around sex, and like you now said, you were going to tell your son about just marriage and keeping yourself on marriage, she now knows that you stay a virgin till marriage. But at the time, because she was too young, I couldn't go into all of that, you know. But what it helped with was that by the time she saw by the time she saw the world, she now knew a series of interesting. It's a very but my so that's why I said you also have to be very intentional with how you approach kids now. They don't ask one question, they're gonna follow you up, and once you start getting flustered, they can just like uh this one no show, it's like daddy.

SPEAKER_00

It's a very complex. I want to get parenting right, I really do. Yeah, is that I want to get parenting right.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think we all do.

SPEAKER_00

We try, we do our best, we do our best, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But it's it's very hard. Yeah, we can only do our best. We can't relate.

SPEAKER_00

Sorry, we don't hit on it, I'm not gonna kill.

SPEAKER_01

I love it. I love it because these are conversations that I'm starting to have myself, and I think about it constantly. Yeah, and funny enough, with my generation, it's really important to hear from you guys because there's a heavy, and I'm going to call it spirits because I'm also Christian and I think everything is a spirit. There's a heavy spirit of inadequacy that a lot of younger men feel. There was a tweet that I saw a couple weeks ago where some guys said, nothing for this life will make go. What do you say? How do you say nothing this life will make me bumpy kin, essentially is what you say. Really? And I know that that definitely comes from a place of inadequacy where you look at the economy, yeah, and you look at all the different sacrifices that you might need to make and you think it's not worth it. So just hearing you guys like actually go through it is always helpful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I was listening to um somebody I respect a lot, and he was talking about the things that we need to instill in our kids when they're very young. And there's a scripture in um in the Bible that says when Jesus was getting baptized by John and it says, you know, God said, This is my beloved, no, this is my son, who I love, in whom I am well pleased. And sometimes I read things and I skip past it, but then I I've now understood it to mean that that statement alone tells you the three things that you are supposed to do as a parent. So this is my son speaks to identity. Okay, so you're instilling in your child this is who you are. You're my son or you're my daughter, this is your identity. This is you know, giving them that sense of identity. And then whom I love is giving them that affection and that love. You are loved, I love you, regardless. Jesus hadn't done anything in his ministry, and God was affirming his love for him, and then giving them validation and affirmation to say, I'm pleased with you. It's not a you know, you don't earn my approval, you know, like you don't have to have achieved anything in life before you already have that foundation. It's the foundation. And I think that, like you say, so many people are struggling with feeling inadequate, which some of that is just the economics of the time. But I think we have a responsibility to instill those things in our children right from the get-go. So they have that sense of self-worth and esteem. And even that plays into these conversations, right? This thing about consent and sex, and you know, we're raising daughters and sons, and at some point they're going to be faced with situations where if they don't have that sense of self of this is who I am, this is who God made me to be, these are my parents, this is my family, and I'm made for more than just this moment, right? Then then, you know, there are cracks on the inside that somebody, a predator can exploit, you know. So so hopefully we do a good enough job where we're able to instill those things in them.

SPEAKER_02

Anyway, before we go, I just wanted to have our live original moments. I got this message from Digi, not you actually. Not this Digi. It's from a Deiji. It says I realized that sometimes I I didn't ask for consent because I was afraid of looking weak or unsure of myself. Wow. How can I make vulnerability and asking permission feel like a strength as a Nigerian man? That is a very yeah, and that's what I mentioned before about the ego. And that is what honestly I feel drives a lot of this for men, where it's tied to whether it's the conversations you're having or how you feel about yourself, yeah, that I've conquered is not a conquest, it's not, and no, does not deflate that ego, yeah, but a lot of men type getting a girl or having sex to what I've been able to achieve or a conquest. And I don't know, I don't know how to answer that question because how do you turn it to a strength is his question. I don't know if you can pastorally help us. I don't know about turning it to a strength, but for me, even if I don't turn it to a strength, I don't see it as a weakness.

SPEAKER_00

So I think I think you just answered it there because I think what we're looking at is a mindset issue. Not in other words, it's not a weakness in the first place. And the fact that somebody's mind may see it as a weakness is is the actual problem. Because desire is human, but dignity comes first, honor comes first, you know. That so it's really a question of why do you see it as a weakness in the first place? So to Deiji, I think it's uh it's it's unlearning uh this idea that being vulnerable, being respectful, being you know, cautious about your interactions is a weakness because it's not, it's actually strength. Like it's it's strength to be uh measured, it takes like that's what true strength is is to be able to control yourself, to be measured, to be thoughtful about the decisions that you are making. You say I should address it pastorally. The best way that I can address it pastorally is this when Christ was being uh um beaten, you know, insulted, wounded, in you know, just ridiculed on his way to the cross. The only thing that they asked him, Are you the Messiah? He said yes. From that point till he hung on the cross, he didn't utter another word. And it's not from lack of provocation, it's not from lack of being in a situation where he could have said or done so many other things, but he chose meekness, which tells me that meekness is not weakness, meekness is strength. It takes strength to hold your tongue, it takes strength to hold your body, it takes strength to choose to be measured in situations that you could be all over the place. So I think for him, it's a mindset about what true strength really means. And once you understand what true strength really means, then it's easier to pick the strong response in any of these kinds of scenarios, and that's the way that I've addressed it.

SPEAKER_02

You address it musically with an S.

SPEAKER_01

I think similar to Banky, for me, the first thing that came up was it's an orientation issue. Um, I also think that so for me, even just tying to, and I've had this conversation a lot in the last couple years, my understanding of what love is, right, is formed also by faith, which is sacrifice. Like love is self-sacrificial. Um if you're acting in love, especially if it's a person that you're supposed to be, you're supposed to, I guess you're trying to have sex with or whatever the case may be. I feel like your ego can't be that great. I honestly it can't be that great of a consideration, but it shouldn't be that great of a consideration. Sex as an ego-driven activity kind of is already dead on arrival because the ability to possibly satisfy another person as well already just kind of helps you just shelf whatever ego it is that you have such that if they're saying you're not good at this or this isn't working, you can take it in stride and not feel like, how dare you! I've been doing this style for 50 years.

SPEAKER_00

I'm just being on that note. I'm just being for real.

SPEAKER_01

Like there's a natural ego that you're not even allowed to bring in in the first place, otherwise, you're going to mess up. That's just the best way that I can think about it. So your brain has to just naturally start to divorce the idea of sex from ego, and then possibly you can proceed from it.

SPEAKER_02

That's a very big one, and I think that honestly wraps it up. Divorcing sex from ego, hard one, especially at a certain age. Yeah, but that's when it's to be done. Um your parents, or our parents at least always told us about how instant gratification can lead to a lifetime of regrets on so many things. Yeah. And it's the same thing with you know, people who years down the line and are issuing apologies and try to explain themselves, it's because of moments of where you could have just walked away. Yeah, and that's exactly what the strength is in being able to just walk away and be like, Yeah, I don't really need this, it's not gonna do anything for me at this moment. That's against needing to fulfill whatever urgities you have. But um, thank you very much, DG. Thank you so for having me. This is fun.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for all your insights.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Do you have any last words for your young millennials or your Gen Z or the Zillennials? Right.

SPEAKER_01

Stay open, stay teachable. That's honestly what it is. I think there'll be there are going to be a lot of things that you won't get right immediately. So you just have to have like a malleable mindset that allows it to stretch and accommodate whatever new information you get.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'm very terrible because when he says stay open, I was like, thank you very much. Oh god, please drop your comments, make sure you subscribe and share this video. These are one of those conversations that I think we need even more women, maybe, to drop their comments, just share with us you know your thoughts on this. And I think we're all trying to learn as we go along. Thanks for joining us in the mentality with eBuka.

SPEAKER_00

We survived this! Did we?

SPEAKER_02

We finally find out this season of mentality with Abuka is brought to you by Schweppes and the Glen Leavett.