Culture Vs. The Modern Man | MENtality with Ebuka, Banky W & Vector

In this episode of MENtality with Ebuka, host Ebuka Obi-Uchendu is joined by co-host Banky Wellington, alongside award-winning acclaimed rapper, songwriter, and cultural commentator Vector, for a thought-provoking conversation on the influence of culture and tradition in shaping modern masculinity.

From childhood, African cultures define what it means to be a man, establishing expectations around strength, leadership, provision, family, and identity. But as society evolves, how do men honour these traditions while navigating changing realities?

Together, they explore the tension between tradition and modern identity, unpack the cultural expectations placed on men, and discuss which values should be preserved, challenged, or redefined for a new generation. The conversation offers fresh perspectives on masculinity, heritage, and the role culture continues to play in shaping the lives of African men today.

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MENtality with Ebuka is a production of Knight & Sheriff and EME.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

On today's episode of Mentality with Ebuka, for many decades, Nigerian culture has shaped masculine identity from birth, defining roles, responsibilities, and social expectations. I'm joined by my co-host Banky W, as well as singer, songwriter, and rapper Vector. This season of mentality with Abuka is brought to you by Schweppes and the Glen Leavette. Is it Bank you know? Is Abuka actually? I'm just here to support you. How's it going? I'm blessing you. Um you know when you're younger, when you ask you how are you, you just say you're fine. I feel like these days when they ask you, actually think, How am I? You know, because you want to give an honest answer, but you also feel like the honest answer is a burden, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Because you guys have people ask how are you? They go say, hey, fine would be nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Well, I found a cheat code with that. You say I'm blessed. How are you? I'm blessed. Amen. Not be really amen to man. It's actually in truth, right? If I remove the matrix of societal things, I'm actually blessed, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

And that's that's a good way to look at it, because maybe we should be a little more place a little more emphasis on the blessings uh than the deep breath, and like because as I guess as humans, as men, there's a lot going on. And there's always a tendency to want to focus on that. Um, because I always tell some of my family members that sometimes when I pray, I actually just say thank you. Yeah, sometimes my prayer is just thank you. Yeah, it's hard because you still have one small request you want to have. Let me just leave it as you have tried. Let me just thank you for the ones you've done. It's not always easy.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, because also saying saying I'm blessed doesn't mean I don't have a problem. Yeah, it just means I have the I have the perspective that all things being considered, I'm still blessed. I'm anything within the problems. Within the problem, there's there's no Mr. Storm, no deep, but at least you know, yeah, with it with it one step at a time. So yeah, anyway, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Sorry, we're going up going up on a tangent. This is mentality with About and today. We're talking culture and tradition and how it intersects with masculinity, yes, heavily.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yes, so we should end the show, and the legend, the legend himself is here, the one and only.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

I was saying he was one of the most requested from last year. He was uh last last year's shoot. So he was Vector. People wait no book, so don't shame your people because they're expecting they're expecting much from you. We will try our best. I know you're capable. There's a very interesting quote.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Ah he looked at me.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

We retired the nickname. We're still capable, though, but we retired the nickname. You are always capable. There's a quote by uh a guy called Peter Drucker, and it's not necessarily directly about this topic, but it says culture is strategy for breakfast any day. That is just about when something has become the norm. You can't strategize your way out of how people are conditioned to be. Thank you, sir. And I want to start the conversation from that from that point of view, because we have all of this modernization, how men should think, you know, how gender conversations should be. But ultimately, a huge part of why we are the way we are, as men anywhere in the world, but even more here in Nigeria is because certain things are cultural, and it's even an argument you use. This is how we do it, where we come from. It's such a flat out defense to a lot of things for men in Nigeria. And um, we had a very extensive debate in a previous episode about this provider mentality mentality and situation where it's the man's duty to, you know, in every situation, whether it's in a marriage, whether it's in an extended family, you're the first son, you are the only son, now you'll work to take care of everybody. A lot of these things are cultural, at least for my part of the world. Ibolan, first son has a certain they are looking out to you, so okay, how far? Are you ready to start training these people, pay their school fees, whatever it is? These are things that are just sort of seen as your duty. And I guess the conversation today is gonna or to start off the conversation around how culture has shaped heavily how men carry themselves here, whether it's the burden we carry or the misogyny, even there's all of these influences now, whether it's religion, it's exposure, we're all on social media, we're seeing how things are done everywhere else. Feminism has come in and tried to shift the conversation a little bit, but then hypermasculinity has now started pushing back at that as well. So there's this clash. What's hypermascular? There's the red pill culture, they call it incel culture, incel culture, the red pill culture, the far right, the manosphere. So hyper man. So I guess we can talk about that, but it's this idea that they tell you we have to go back to what men used to be. You know, women are becoming to or making men weaker. Things along those lines. You have a lot of thoughts already, I guess. What do you think about masculinity is? Let's start with that.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Masculinity is a term, okay, it's just a term. I don't know if I've sat down to say this is what I think masculinity is, maybe because I was I was raised to just be whatever it is I'm trying to define, and that in itself cannot be linear. Yeah, I can't even say this is what masculinity is. So it's I just know the word, just like so many other things. However, I struggle with like it's kind of like saying defining love too. I struggle with saying this is what I think masculinity is. I just channel say masculinity is masculinity, um, is male related, but I feel like the life of the male is too complex to be narrowed down to one type of definition. So I can't tell you that this is what I think masculinity is.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

You're very proud of where you're from. Yes, you are very proud of your roots, your Yoruba culture, and all of that. And there's no doubt that that sort of shapes how we move as men in Nigeria, our culture. With Eurobars, for example, I don't know if there are examples from an outsider looking in. The one thing I know, for example, is there's a huge emphasis on respect amongst the Yoruba. Um, where the Egbon, you must frustrate. Maybe I'm pushing it, but the Eggbone is always right. I'm not saying that as a black estimate, but is that a bone. He said Akbar Akbar game power. Exactly. Yeah, so we don't have that sort of culture where this man is 70. He might be saying something wrong, but nobody's pushing back. So those are some of the conversations that I'm talking about. Where as a man, so in today's world, you have the Gen Z or people who in this younger generation are bold enough to say, You're wrong, or you're lying, and there's this ah abomination. That's me.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

That's a lie. That's another lie.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

But remember, there was a there was an episode that happened on a plane where I think it was it Waleshowing car that came and it became this whole thing. He wanted some to move. I don't remember this. Yeah, there was a whole thing. There was a whole thing about yeah, you know, if you paid for a business class and you see an elderly person to stand up and let the person take your seat. And there was something I don't remember the the things, but yeah, what do you think about like no?

SPEAKER_02 8:08

That's wrong. Okay. If I were so if I if I was on the well, no be mole where somebody stand, right? So on a plane, your ticket has its seat number, right? So if now by elderly, you're on the first class or business class, use elderly instincts, pay business class tickets.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

So here's the thing, they were both in business.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Okay, but I think he wanted a window or aisle.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I think it was a mall.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

But the guy's like, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna move.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, he doesn't have any, he doesn't have any rights just because he's older to make anybody move. However, if I was saying in a public transport of some sort and I see an elderly person struggling, yes, I decently will say, uh, mommy, I'll be daddy awa joku. Right? That's a different ball game. Seeing you and greeting you, I'll greet you in every sense of, oh, this is somebody older than me, meaning they are most definitely or most likely wiser than I am based on experience on life, the life that I'm living in. So I respect you for that. Yeah, but that's where that ends, really.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

So but that's the thing now, because the argument then I just googled it, and it was actually a Europa boy, or it doesn't mean anything who had this situation, it was actually a window seat situation. Okay, I think Professor wanted to sit by the window, and he was like, No, it's left to his wife's seat, it's left to him to say, Okay, I want to, or I don't.

SPEAKER_02 9:31

It doesn't hold any serious cultural taboo that he didn't leave the window.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

But that's what the argument was because a lot of people on social media were very upset with the cultural perspective to say that if in our tradition, if an elder wants something and should you should defer it to them.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

That's what the that's what the charter was online, and it just takes you back to that whole talk about the culture almost always wins, and that is why a lot of things are the way they are. I get your I get your point about that. Should not be. I mean, if I paid for a seat, there's a reason I paid for that seat because I want to sit by the window. Did the elder was the elder pissed off?

SPEAKER_02 10:11

I don't know. We don't know that detail. Yeah, I mean, I don't think he ever came out to speak about it. I don't think he never saw it. I don't think I ever heard prof complain about that. So that's and that clarifies the argument. Yeah, so it's other people carrying it on there. It's kind of like a third-party venue, you know, it's not you're not at home, you're not at the palace, you're not in the village, you're not, yeah, it's just at a commercial plan. Yeah, um, yeah, yeah, that's a place where different people from different cultures, even your own culture, but different understandings come from. So I don't think it matters there. And as long as the elderly person hasn't taken offense, I guess we can do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Wait, just like for more context. What does Sonika boarded the flight before the guy and sat by the window? So your doofar walks in and says, That's my seat, and tells him to stand up. I don't know if that changes the conversation. And contrary to social media narratives, Sonika did not resist. He clarified that he actually did not refuse to move, nor did he argue when it was pointed out that he was on the wrong seat. It was just people apparently on the flights who were like aghast at the audacity of the boy to tell an elderly.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

It might just be like the fun moment of this, you know. And yes, telling an elderly person to get up in your rubber culture is actually a thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Have you ever found yourself in that situation where you've had to sort of challenge like authority and your culture is like, but because you're saying you don't you even challenge your mom now, you said. Uh well, but I wonder like publicly. Well, I'm sure that's a weird, but it's such a it takes a lot more than just saying no because of all the pushbacks.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

There was a moment with sorry, do you want to go ahead? Yeah, my Yoruba culture says means it's the wisdom of the child and the elder, you know, that we've governed if I know, or that we've established if I by. So the wisdom of the child is quite recognized alongside the wisdom of the elder. So like I say to my mom, oh yes, mom, you're super wise based on experience, but there is new wisdom. Like you wouldn't know what artificial intelligence is, neither would you know what um, you know, certain biological warfare is, you know, but I can instruct you on how to move.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Fake WhatsApp message. Just to be like mommy, no, or daddy know, this this forward is not true.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

This is a this is a scam, you know. So the culture's the culture highlights that the wisdom of the elder and of the younger ones, of the youth, is how you establish the ancestral roots, for example, of your bala, which is Ife. So for for such a wise saint to acknowledge the wisdom of the younger ones, it means there has to be a balance.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

There has to be a balance. I think the the um so I had an experience once, um, and I don't know if you remember this, but remember when Ruben Abati, uh, all due respect to him, wrote this Dr.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Ruben Abati.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Dr. Ruben Abati, actually. Sorry, Dr. Ruben Abati.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

But you know, he literally scolded a correspondent on air. For not saying the doctor, he's on air. A correspondent is reporting and says, Thank you, Ruben, after asking. And he said, No, no, you will not address me. I was like, Oh, Dr. Ruben.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Sorry, I already I don't already mess up. Um no, but there was a time that he wrote this um article about like the music business. Yes, I remember that, yes, and entertainment and how you know everything was so bad in our day, and it was much better in his day. And why are we calling ourselves different? I don't know if you remember this time, but yeah, it was very scathing. It was a scathing rebuke, as it were, of the music business. And I myself, I think LD and one or two other people wrote like rejoined us to his article. And, you know, this all kind of trended at the time and went pretty viral. And it was for me, it was a situation where I felt like this could be a teachable moment for everybody, uh, for society, for everybody, but I was trying to make sure that I was still respectful in the way that I went about challenging the elders' wisdom. And when I met him for the first time, you know that you know, you're about people, we we have a way of just greeting, it's just the way that we're trained. And I remember there was a moment I met him for the first time, and we met like on stage at some conference that we were speaking at, and there was a picture of me like kind of semi-prustrating, dubile in to greet him. And there was some some people online were saying, Oh, why did he greet him like this? You know, after he you know responded it something, why is it that he should have like don't let make these old people feel like I was like, no, that's not you know that my respect for you and my opinion about something that we're debating are two completely different things. If I I can disagree with you respectfully and tell you why I disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that I have been trained by my culture to respect you, yeah, to give respect to elders. You know, I don't if I was on the plane, I can tell you for free I would never tell prof to stand up because I just I don't have the heart.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I also thought about I'm not even Europe, but I thought of it. I don't know, but it's that's a that's a difference if I was sitting and it tells us and have a bit of it, but I don't know what I would give. So I think it's more the prof part of it. You know, it's like I know fits, I know I know my heart. Let me sit down here. Let's just yeah, yeah, because yeah, that that was quite yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

So I so I think that there's some good, like it's about taking things in context and not just taking one part of it and focusing on that, either, either just saying that it's all good or that it's all bad. It's about saying there's a lot of things that culture can teach us. There's some things about culture that have had to evolve over time, you know, that we have to kind of look at and say, maybe this was the prevailing wisdom of the day, but things have changed. Of course. I I went to um I was we were having a conversation off camera about I went to I spent a month in Bauchi. And you know, I you know, we were filming a movie up north at the time. I'd never spent that amount of consecutive time in the north. And I remember the um the guy that was our like our interpreter. So we're shooting in different parts of the community in school, so we always had this guy who was a great guy, very amiable fella. Um, and he was the one that would translate to the communities that we were shooting in. Okay. And so I get into conversations with him, and I found out from him that he'd had 20 children, six of whom had died, and he had 14 surviving kids. And I said, Well, I said, Pros Musa, whatever his name was. I said, Why do you have so many children? He said, Ah, I know that in our culture, children, the more children that you have is a sign of wealth, it's a sign of you know, just your stature in society and all of that. So, you know, that you got to keep going, you have to keep, and that eventually the children will be older. Once they can start working, they will start contributing to the home. And I was like, man, we were paying this guy. This was what 20, it was a long time ago, 2018 or 2017 or something. We're paying this guy. Let's just say peanuts, because I don't remember the exact amount of money. The amount of money that he was making for that month is was not enough for you to take two or three children, talk less of 14. But it was a thing where that's that's what he knew. That's what culture had told him. It's like the more children you have, the better off you are. Yeah, so there are like there are things from culture that we have to hold on to for dear life. Yeah, respect, how we treat family, you know, how we push ourselves to provide as men. But then there are other things that over time we have to say, is this working? This thing, it may not make sense anymore. And we have to have the wisdom to know what to pick and choose.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

This thing you mentioned is why we've had a few attempts at family planning programs in Nigeria. I remember one when I was really young, it was Babangida or someone that was trying to do this. Everybody should have, I think it was either three or four kids, which is still a loss, but my Niger standards, that was a limit. And the pushback was crazy. And it's things like this where they say culturally, I'm sorry, these are a sign of my productivity.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

Going back to the conversations we've had over time on this show, a man's ego. So if I have just three children, what does it say about me? So your ego is tied to how many children you have in some cultures, yeah, uh, and all of that. But you know, we're talking about this whole provider thing, and back to so I don't know if this is even cultural, but it almost feels like it is with the ebo's, where we might not be uh we don't double. We don't do we're criticized for it a lot where it's like we greet you or we shake your hand, and there's a thing, there's a saying that the Bwameze culturally, we didn't have the sort of traditional kingdoms that the West or the North had. Everybody was a king in his own sort of compound. We didn't have these overlords, just in few places like Onnicha, but generally everybody was a king in his own compound, so we didn't have that system you find like in the West and the North. But what also happened has happened over time. I don't know if it was a thing from back in the day or if it's but it almost feels cultural now, where the most successful male is almost the head of the clan of the place. These days is money, but back in the day, maybe how many yams were in your barn or whatever it is, and that guy, even if he's the third son, because he has the most money, gets you defer to you for your so what do you think we should do? Because you are the guy who has, you know, and which brings me back to that pressure to be a provider, because now your masculinity is tied to how much do you have? How much are you doing communally? You know, if we are debating a situation, I tell you, short of how much do you have? People actually support me, whether I'm saying rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

It's it's brilliant because that's such a in your robot culture, for example. First son, now cost, you know, if you escape your third brother be billionaire.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

A really it doesn't stop the first time of being first son, but everybody understands what's happening, is what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

When my dad passed, he did my son about that to say, um, forget that really do it to me because everybody comes to you. Yes, in your back or everybody comes to you. You get money, you get money. Once your partner don't fall, because it's been cemented as such, and I think it's a brilliant thing. So, because you're a leader, it's now not I I say that in some form of balancing the concept of say if you have money, you be that's a typical human flaw that I've observed. People tend to aggravate or move towards the person that is, you know. However, if we're looking at culture, if you like for Europa culture, make you be beggar. As long as you be a role, everybody's got. You to you is now a different ball game if your siblings support you, but what you are signing off on, whatever is being requested, if there's supposed to be a continuation of what your father left over or left behind, now you right is constantly that this is not to remove the fact that it's true that whoever has the fatal wallet is kind of like the guy that determines a lot of things in a lot of realities. But if we're speaking of culture, a ruler is a serious position. It's a serious position. And I, I'm not saying that because of like textbook understanding. When my dad passed, when the missiles were hitting my other brother, it just sat falling and deal with me. So forget this first something, deal with me. And even me, that is it, it was that deep that every time I was approached for anything, I have to confirm with him. Also, because in Europa culture they teach you about not stepping, not crossing boundaries, hierarchy, but so as to avoid issues for your own self. Because it's a thing where you overdo, and the one ahead of you starts to feel like you're insulting their position. That's a human flaw, too. So you must, even if they say, Ah, Larry, obviously, can you go? Can you go by Alpha Magnum? They say okay. Like you have to do that so that you balance it out for yourself. So it is again, is it could vary. I agree that the person that holds the bigger buck is the one that people naturally will go to, say, oh, this guy, um, we need to do this, we need to do that. But in Yoruba culture, there is strong emphasis on the first son, for example. The same way other in evil culture, right? There's strong emphasis on the first daughter and the first son. So it's the same way in Yoruba culture as well. Just that here, when it comes to rights and things that must be done in the family, you can't escape it as the first son.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Do you think a thing like bright prize sort of feels this men own women? In Europa culture, you can't own a woman. As I say, the perception. I don't think anybody owns anybody, but this idea because you hear a lot of situations where there's a where there's domestic issues of violence and it's a painful price. You know, so these are but these are the perception, is what I'm talking about now. Where people you've I don't know any culture in Nigeria where the man is there's a groom price. I know there's something in it.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

You pay it all your life after you marry.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

But that's the truth.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

But people who argue, especially women telling you now that they need to abolish that because it almost feels like it's a transaction, and what's the commodity? So you go to the girl's father, you present whether it's six million pounds of whatever, or 50 naira, you're not making a payment. You must be a fool in your own country to think you have that right with what you think it's symbolic, yes. But what does it do to the perception of you know the interaction between men and women?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

It shouldn't do anything. Yeah, that is just one cultural act that is ongoing. So it is a traditional way culturally for you to come and request our daughter in every sense of commitment, no matter how small it is. But you must be a fool to think the woman you married is she costs what you paid, yeah, whether small or big, you must be a fool. Yeah, so and like we're saying earlier, my father.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Okay, let me nervous.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

I know this, you know, I don't spare men of what I think they should know that they don't know. I don't know is not an excuse. Yeah, you should know as a man, if they have to tell you not to judge. When you loved this woman that you are trying to marry, did you think about what to cost you financially to love her? No. So, how is it that when you guys are not fighting us say no?

SPEAKER_01 26:24

And I find that conversation a little annoying because for me, so a lot of these conversations now happen because there's a lot of Western influence and all of that. When you propose in the Western world, the man is in there and giving a ring. I mean, we see a few occasions now where the woman does it, but traditionally in the West, the man is the one who gives that ring. Are we also gonna now say that ring is a payment? Because of these rings, we know what they cost.

SPEAKER_00 26:53

I know what it costs me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Can that be interpreted to be their own bright price that you've paid?

SPEAKER_00 26:59

Because traditionally we don't do rings, we've adopted that right as part of our but our culture is not I think it's really a mindset issue, and the problem is you can't there's no one size fits all um doctrine that you can teach every mind to embrace it in a healthy way, because the same way somebody will say, I paid the bright price, so nobody can tell me anything, the woman is my property. Another person will say that in every culture, you don't own anybody, right? And these people can be from the same culture, but it's just the way that an individual decides to look at it. So I think I don't know that I love like the traditional weddings, and I, you know, not just the Yoruba one, but I've you know, my wife is there, do so you know, we had our whole thing, and I remember it even gave my mom a sense of purpose in the wedding where she was going out and getting this list of like different things to present to the family.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Traditional weddings in Nigeria are beautiful, they're phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Like it gave my mom made it the only thing we do, bro. It gave my mom this sense of just like fulfillment. So that's all you did, yeah. Interesting. Again, again, my mom see this sense of fulfillment to go and do all these things. And the funny thing was, in my wife's culture, in the Edo culture, at least Isha where she's from, aside from this list, right? There's now this financial you know payment, if you will. But in their culture, they return the money back because they say, Oh, uh, that's how I was writing my father-in-law, so those things are even the gesture of that is beautiful, yeah. But somebody cannot say we shopped, we bought yam and gave you Bible and did it. So we owned it. But for people, their lists their list is long. Um stage. Hey, I went to one stage stages. I went to one, it was the whole, it was the whole negotiation.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Ah, you think the mother said with the best when you also say, Oh, I'm out with a girl. This girl said I'm going to disease or color for your extended family.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

And I think in those cases, the more accomplished the woman is, the more color you buy.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Because the great degree, and she has too much, she has a doctorate as a result.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

This is just your break. That may then form if it gets to that point, it may then form an unaccepted basis. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, because I so I feel like you experience anything God or divine in the simplest form, and the simplest form of relationship is you and the person are attracted, but you don't know what it is, it's just there. And that's fine. Now we can do what culture says we should do, but I guess in that context, the most important culture is that of the union, not necessarily every other person else. Because what the man that you're asking to do all these extreme pages of things, do you know how he is psychologically about achieving those things? Also, he's going to live with your daughter for life. Yeah, so can we start it and the journey sort of? It won't be um tongue and teeth must fight or something. So, yeah, and we're human beings, retentive human beings when we're fighting. Memory is sharp. So, and again, it's also parts where say in Yoruba culture they'll say issue. You have to know your issue so you can recognize it when it's approaching, right? Those issue, the devil, it's not devil, it's not Satan. Well, is issue is not Satan, issue is just your negative side, but it can mean devil, it can mean Satan. No, it's an issue, ni. No, it can mean it cannot. It cannot. No, wonderful. Satan is an analogy that stands on its own. Okay, but the on the original Yoruba culture for it's like so being and yang, the dark side is issue. Okay, so that's it. It's like you are now, all of us are peaceful if somebody trespasses in your home, right? Right, issue happens then.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

You know, I exact. Sorry, we'll get back to your points. I like these cultural conversations because I've seen that conversation on Twitter once where there was a whole back and forth. And we had that same thing with in Igbo, where what we call Satan is, or what the church calls Satan is equensu. And there's a lot of pushback now, because equensu is not Satan, it's a deity from idol worship. When the colonialists came and they tell you this is a god for those who worship, who are traditional worshippers. So there's now it's almost like there's really no word for the devil now if you are a traditionalist. Because we because the what the is like the British adopted that as this is what the coin so is, but it actually is a traditional god or something. But so I know these debates happen a lot now. Because traditional worship is getting interestingly more they're getting more vocal. And I wanted to ask you because you said you only did the traditional thing with why.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I mean, we had the presence of the church, okay. Yes, we had we had uh you know, yeah, a leader from the church bless it. However, again, there's a popular saying in Lagos where they say, right? So it's kind of like the Europa culture is embracing of so much. So what all of us fail to understand is because whatever religious arguments are coming to negate things, right? We keep forgetting that it's the same God. So the understanding of Allah is the same of God, which is the same of Olodumari, that is an autonomous being. Like there's one superior supreme being that has created. The pastor is looking at you, squinting and looking at you because guess what? In church, they say Olodumari. Yes, they call God Olodumari. So people are intentionally, I well, I won't say intentionally, but it just feels like there's this intentionality in trying to segregate things. Whereas in the true sense of it, traditionally they recognize God, in the Christian fold, they recognize God, in the Islamic fold, they recognize God. Now, how they choose to recognize it may vary, but there's a recognition. Right? And with issue, so for example, the So what then is God is what is what is devil in Europa? Um, devil is confusion now, right? It's mishap. So if you are cutting and you and the knife cuts your hand, issue shelle. So the devil happens in Yoruba culture.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

So it's it's it's but but the confusion, but let's clear it out. The confusion, though, is that there are a lot of Yoruba people who would refer to issue as the devil.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Yes, you are just saying that there's a deeper context of issue as a concept and actually mirrors you so if you notice, well, in the neighborhood, many people they fight, there's always one man saying, Ah, imagine don't let the devil happen, right? Because the devil always happens, and if we even go with Christian understanding, the devil happens. Because no, I don't think anybody has gone to where Satan is to say, This is the location, this is how things are here. Oh my god, I've been here for eternity and I've been burning. So if you were there, you wouldn't be giving us the examples, right? However, whatever helps control the narrative, I guess is fine. However, the conversation of issue is more of like a mirror to yourself. So if you look at adages in Yoruba language, when they don't give you adage, whatever understanding you get is up to you. So in the same way, the devil is up to you, the God is up to you. That way you are the focal point of the spiritual understanding or the doings from the spiritual understanding. The spiritual understanding here means like the metaphysical beyond the physics, right? The one that's deep inside. So the some Yoruba people, me too, I don't understand in totality what it is. However, I have tested my Christian church knowledge with in-depth Yoruba analysis, and I found truths. Okay, and I found truth. So a good example is this what is there? What is there in holy books or religious books that there are no adages for? Nothing. If it's to be decent, always adages by the way, wise sayings. If it's thief or stealing, there are wise sayings for that. If it's union, there are wise sayings for that. If it's dedicated, if it's dedication to the person you're united with or to, there are wise sayings for that. So it's we I just know that we need to be careful with how we demonize because how then do we know if we've demonized? So I, for example, I used to be because of theater, theatre. It's a different show now. It is a different show. But if I'm enjoying the culture that makes me a man, for example, because now accepting my issue means I have kind of like how you treat cancer, I've understudied it, so I know the levels to it. So if I'm sitting here and somebody's provoking me, I know, ah, this guy they call a shusha. So I then start to handle myself. Either I walk away or I put myself at a base, it doesn't mean it's not there existing. I just have to control it as I've known. And because I know myself, maybe I know what to do to distract myself from that thought. So, in that line, I that's how you become a man in many ways with the Yoruba culture. There's no way you're understanding Yoruba culture and you're not maturing. So if you know things like issue, you know that ah, this vex, this let me vex like this. Ah, this thing they come. I don't want it to move your mind. Right? So it leaves it in your hands, it genuinely leaves it in your hands to decide.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

So that's just I think I think there's there's a lot of validity. I see a lot of validity to what you're saying because even when I think about like the Christian experience, right? It's very much about your personal relationship with God and your willingness to submit to a journey of development where we have we're having a conversation off camera about addiction, right? And how there are certain things that men succumb to, whether it's gambling or whatever the case may be. We were talking about gambling, but there's this uh false ideology in the church that deliverance can in some churches that deliverance can solve everything, whereas it's not a deliverance issue, it's a discipleship and a developmental issue, and that takes a certain level of personal responsibility, that's an issue and issue. So if you're an individual it's unique, but it's like if you now that is issue exactly, but if you if you allow your if you if you so we were talking about addiction, gambling, somebody who has taken steps to get into that place, you are not going to realistically go to somebody and say, Oh, I'm going to do a prayer of deliverance and I'm gonna come out. No, there's gonna be personal accountability and work and putting one foot in front of the other and discipling yourself. And that personal accountability is part of your journey towards freedom, as opposed to saying everything is just an automatic come and pray for you, come and pray for me, the person laid hands on me, and then I'm and then I'm good. So I think that there's there's validity to the idea that it's very much even your relationship with God is personal, it's personal, it's not just do the rituals of it, and then you know, and then you're fine. No, it's about that daily commitment to that personal relationship. That's what I've understood true Christianity to be. And I'm somebody that grew up in the church, so I've seen what being a Christian in name but not in personal experience looks like. It's one thing to believe that God is real, right? And you can everybody can believe that God is real. It's another thing for God to be real to you because that requires a personal encounter, an experience, and an acknowledgement that I have this personal relationship with God that makes me know that yes, the Bible has said so, yes, my mother has taught me that, yes, my pastor has said so, or you know, whatever your frame of reference is. But I've also been on a journey that makes this real to me. Yes. So sorry, it's a different show, but uh, take us as we are.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

I just I like where this conversation has gone because even I like to learn a lot, and I'm a big fan of tradition. I mean, I'm a Christian, but I also like to um learn. Nigeria is so diverse, and it's always an eye-opener for me. Like I talked about the equinci thing initially, I was one of those who grew up thinking this was the word for the devil. And when I said it here in context and realizing that this is was actually a god that's traditionally people worshipped. But I think it was a god of sort of like I don't, I'm not sure what it was whether it's like it was a cunning god who helped you get out of situations, you know. If you or like a trickster, look at that. So that was the sort of the most negative god or negative connotation to a god that now made that be assigned as the word for Satan. Like I was changed this conversation to history lessons, but no man will know himself.

SPEAKER_02 41:12

Like I feel like, especially for Africans, right? You must know yourself on these levels. You read the Bible, we'll be you, we read the Bible. Because everybody keeps camouflaging, and that's one thing I grew up in church as well. That's one thing I sensed. A lot of people come and camouflage who they are with the fact that they've read the Bible, right? But you can read the Bible and be a low donor. Yes, you can read the Bible and be evil, yeah. You even the devil quotes the Bible, yeah. So it's like, who are you? And you can't, I feel like you for us to know ourselves is not far from our ancestry. Granted, if culture must advance, so now Banky's mentality of forward living now, what if is you through your own family name that will bring a new way that is going to advance what your forefathers have done? Because there must be advancements, of course. Yeah, right. However, it's not to be totally removed from the concept of ancestry, yeah, is to further it. Yeah, yeah. Like he now, he he does herbal mixtures, right? Okay, yes, so he will know what leave to drink and help you sweat out certain illnesses, toxins in your body or illnesses, and on social media today, the one killing it's put clothes and can you come with can the clove with the devil pepper soups is very small, or it will do with the clean newborn baby bele, but our ancestors don't get rid of since now. Did they predict in the future that it was going to do what doctors are saying you should do now? What about the knowledge in knowledge base in that reality? Saying, for example, my kid now, the first time they give her baby food, now God say you know, die. Yeah, and if you say you will not believe at six months, you tell to eat semo, six months, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Is that why you're coughing?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Yeah, if I show you one straight to Semo. If I show you my daughters, if they tell you say their favorite food, now swallow. So if there's Ebano bonus, my kids love swallowing.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

My son loves Ebanocra. That's his favorite food. I don't know about six months, six months.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Six months was early when he was born. So once I was scanning her the mother's stomach, because the mother ate clean while she was pregnant, too. So she was not staying one place. So I don't start to play this on the belly, no, once close by close by, and she stopped and they scanned. Bro, the first time my daughter made a move, no, before she could move her hand, her mom didn't realize that she'd always hear go you planted the seat. She was beatboxing. Yeah. Then the moment she could move her limbs, the first thing she was playing was bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Speaking, no chop baby food. The first time we chop baby food there, as she was losing her breath, the mother just put breast milk in her mouth and it reversed another conversation. So God made the breast milk so powerful. Yes, breast milk has everything. We could go buy baby food every year. Yeah, yeah. Everything that the child is, including brain developers. I'm talking, you want long hair, day game, skin and everything in day game, but we could go buy baby food. Uh trying to this but this semo assistance is vansty. Yeah, semo and two.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Wow. Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

So tomorrow that's a eat swallow. I believe saying ancient taste buds then girls. You know this guy. My two-year-old likes Eru, she knows Eru. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

How many kids do you have? Three. All girls, boy, girls. All girls. Oh girls, yeah, girl died. Are you getting to 14?

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Like my kids get it.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Oh, the guy in the. I don't even think 14 for me.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Now we did take over, right? But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

You can't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

We have 14 children.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Anyway, talking of number of children, let's talk about polygamy and how that culturally has shaped the psyche of men in this part of the world where I don't know any culture in Nigeria where women are allowed to marry multiple men. Now, in Igbo tradition, in the past, polygamy was normal. What you had sometimes, which is very, very interesting and very controversial, and a lot of people don't know this. Women married women, but not romantically. So maybe you are married to your husband, you're not necessarily, maybe you can't have kids. You actually, as a woman, could marry a woman for your husband to have kids.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

It's a very like Sarah, hey guy, bringing for your grandson, children. Bring you somebody for me.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

But because you're the person who brings the woman in, it's not necessarily like your husband is cheating, and it's to come and be like a childbearer or whatever. This is cultural in many parts of Igoland. Um, but you I don't know many places or any places where women could marry four husbands, for example. Um so this is something that has also fed into the male ego of we can go into religion, which is a whole other thing now. But culturally, most cultures in Nigeria have a history of polygamy, and that has affected how we interact with women, how we interact with life, and how we view women as once again a commodity or something you acquire because I mean I can have as many as I want. Now we are more monogamous than because Christianity and religion has come in.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Society has shaped.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Society has shaped, but it's also conversations we hear. Most Nigerians you meet are at most two generations remote from a polygamous. Yeah, most times a grandfather, even if it's not a father, most times it's a grandfather. Um, so we have we either saw it or we knew it. My grandfather had two wives. I know our grandes that have multiple which was conservative for his time. Yeah, just two wives. Yeah, some of my father's friends have multiple. These are still, you know, just one generation removed. Some have concubines, some have concubines. Let's not go into all those people that probably appear when the man dies at the funeral. And you see the chat, these are all the same uniform as you say. Who are they? Six adults, especially the one with his every uniform. It's not worse when they are older than Yusuf. You know, you guys have three other brothers. Yeah, and maybe they don't brush you all time. We re say the older brothers, yeah. So, yeah, just about how so we go back to the whole how culture shapes our thinking and how the masculinity of it all is still tied. And I guess that's also why it's harder to break free from this idea that men are a certain way, right? Um, we we have we have this movement. Well, it's more than a movement, but it's been around for a while when feminism became, you know, even came into Nigeria and became a part of our lexicon, a part of our conversation and all of that. And this is why I believe a lot of people here push back on it because they always bring up culture as a defense. What do you mean you want to be equal? Because in our heads, even for people who are in their 20s and 30s, who didn't even live in this polygamous era, we've been conditioned, and conditioning is very, very strong. They say most people are shaped by the time they're 12 years old. So, what you've heard, the conversations you've heard, the lifestyles you've seen by the time you're 12 are what you grew up to become, and what we now call toxic is what debatably conditioned culture has told us to be.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

I'm curious to know what your thoughts are on just this feminism point that he brought up. Touching subjects, so and and your thoughts on polygamy, but yes, feminism for the same.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Okay, so I I could never understand. So, shout outs to Omak Bimi. Um, he said the he gave the perfect analogy. I think it's perfect analogy. He says we can never be equal, but we can fight for equity. We can't fight for equality, it can never be equal. Even judging by muscle mass, there's no equality, but there can be equity, however, in Yoruba traditional understanding, there's a reason why there's no Baba Logia, but there's a Yah Logia. Now, women they do business but men just go to hunt and provide, right? Or protect. However, business wasn't even what you needed to provide because I guess in that understanding, it was your farms that fed you. So business was more of it's a flare thing for women. So every time even I went, even when I was a kid and I go to the market with my mom every once in a while, women greet each other, which I think was a brilliant time before supermarkets came. Then if you went to the market, your countenance determined the quality of good that you take home. Yeah. And the consideration you got. Right. Ah, and Lemau, our mom called Keniko, can you call? You don't disarm first. You greet her, you communicate with her. Right? From seeing that, right, my mom was free as a woman. My mom was Kashogi when we're growing up. Like my dad was civil servant. My mom owned a restaurant that became it was opposite City Hall then that that blew up. And she was she went by the name Mercury C catering services, then she still has the business till date. Um, so but deeper than that, in Europa culture, there's a saying that goes Orisha B Yakosi. Say Orisha is is it deity? Yeah, yeah, like there's no Orisha that is like the mother, there is no saying that respects women deeper than that. Plus, on the side, because they can get pregnant, they're seen more as a vessel, as a giver of life, yes, yeah. So even in you look at the culture, really, especially in the Eurobike, there's so much emphasis on mother over the father because there is this um there is this honor traditionally that comes with being a woman. Now we might have to be careful with equating that understanding with modernization because the modernization now, okay, granted, you know, all these arguments they but if you're talking culturally speaking, any proper Yoruba man understands his wife is more than just one woman that is. I've never in my entire life looked at a woman as inferior, and I think that should count for those of us that are raised that way, bro. My sisters were bullies when we're growing up, bro. Like we had PTSD from that, especially Choo Choo, Choo Chu Wife. Oh, she was a bastard. How do you trust me? I'm sure she's not hearing it for the first time. The mentality of say one woman day weak, I'm like, for my house. Yeah, my mama and my brother don't fight soldier before. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

She's probably the toughest of all my siblings.

SPEAKER_00 53:07

So in my head, I'm like, so I think I think I've met her. Yeah, she don't play. She don't play no game.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

So, how could I how could I grow into thinking condescendingly or weak of women uh uh when I don't go through torture with the hand of women, bro?

SPEAKER_00 53:26

So I think you you bring up an excellent um side of that argument in terms of equity, in terms of just the strength and the honor that is due to women. The other side of it for me, for what feminism is supposed to represent, is a woman's right to choose who she wants to be and how she wants to represent herself. And I bring that up because I know there was an entire debate online when Mr. Easy and Temi got married and she chose to take his last name. And I I literally saw people saying people were very angry, they were saying, Oh, she has set feminism back, she's coming from you know the Ortedo land for something, that they expected more from her. And so, so, so, and the thing for me, I was genuinely confused because I was like, But feminism is supposed to be whatever she wants to do.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

As long as she wasn't forced.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

As long as she's not forced, as long as she's with the personal agency to say, this is what I choose for my life. If I want to carry my husband's last name, or I, you know, and for people carrying the matter on their head, that's what really messed up because I was, I think that's where I have an issue where the the the cracks seem to appear. It's like you you are in support of feminism until the woman chooses something different than what you want, and then all of a sudden there's a problem. Yeah, and I think that's where I have an issue with it, is like let women just let honor them, you know, I mean let them be, just let them be who they want to be.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

I think this whole adopting someone else's conversation as regarding something as personal as feminism, I think it needs to be controlled. Say, for example, I've worked with a lot of females with what um projects that I've done, and not one time is anybody allowed to disrespect or look, and nobody does it. You know, Diola, Jody, women, a lot of them. Nobody like even when, because of course, it's a typical thing that women can be very emotional. So even when they're being emotional, it's my position to understand that okay, that's just her being a woman, but it doesn't change the fact that this excellence that she's doing is a thing, right? So there are so many people suggesting what feminism should be, then like you rightly said, it should just be the woman freely deciding what she wants for herself. Yeah, be it taking someone else's name. Um, whether salary, I think you should argue solely for women, but not in some sort of drugstore position, because then that defeats the purpose. You know, if you are speaking for women, don't speak for women, balancing it with how it is for men. Because then it's not it's kind of like a mixed level of conversation that this is a this is a human being. Yeah. And let this person enjoy every benefit that a human being deserves. Right. And that's it for me, it's always been it. Um, I've always respected women just for them being women. Um, it doesn't mean there's one special place I keep like because sometimes the way there are men that are not worthy of respect, there are women that are not worthy of respect. And I will not give anybody who doesn't deserve respect the respect that they claim or they crave. However, any human being that deserves respect, they get it from me.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Um I feel like that should really balance it out if you look at it. It's very interesting when you're talking about feminism, and I was just trying to think back. I think one of the most patriarchal societies in Nigeria, back is my people. We both are very patriarchal. But even in that, right, um, one of the most powerful decision-making bodies in any community are the umwadas. And these are daughters of the family who are married out. So if you have a sister who's now married elsewhere, if there's an issue in your village or in your community, the umwadas who have been who are married come back. So you have the umunas who are like the family meeting, who are the men in the community and all of that. Usually when they can't resolve something, they refer it to the daughters to fix it. Because they and I wonder if it's because they were seen as more intellectual or more rational. I don't know, but it's till today. If they tell you you have an issue and the umwadas are calling you, you panic because you know that they're gonna give you a you're about it has reached that level.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

Well, because women can see it means that it's now deeper than we probably aren't seen as men.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

It's deeper than you think, and I think that's feminism in its own way, right? Well, as much as, like I said, that's a patriarchal society, there's a certain respect that has been accorded to women over centuries where they're seen as almost like the appeal courts or the supreme courts, even, or the senate. Because we can't finish it now, you come and help us, you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

And it's brilliant because it means the men then may it may mean that they understand that maybe their egos are not letting them see certain perspectives or sometimes maybe their biases. There's something they call women have that thing, it's it's intuition of some sort. Intuition, women have serious intuition. So, for example, a woman can sit down and observe a man talking and be like, this guy, not just ego, they make a thought, he knows what they're saying, and that's where her power comes in because she knows how to let him know. Yeah, that guy, no worries, I know you now, now you go, they do you for here.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Do you think we can unlearn this though? This this culture, and yes, three of us might be sounding ill. Cerebral, cerebral, I don't use the word liberated, but we know better. Right. But like I've been saying throughout this, is how culture has defined a lot of how men move. And I wonder if it's something that can be unlearned. Because you interact with people, right? You are very cultural, you're very traditional. We know how people see things. And I wonder, is it a role culture has to play, or is it something that's modernity? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 59:32

I think it's the moderators of culture that it's not culture that is the issue, is the people in moderate that are moderating it. So culture has stated its own. One guy and our call, it's kind of like when you have pastors misinterpreting the Bible to their followers. Yeah, you know, culture has stated its own clearly, and in culture, for example, king know the bow to men, but they bow to women for Yoruba culture. So it's been stated clearly that, as a matter of fact, even within certain high contexts, the women are highly respected enough to take the bow of a king, and the men can't even get that. So maybe it's the middlemen.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

It's kind of like how do we then now get the middlemen to evolve in their consciousness, especially as regards things like the treatment of women in society, right? Like we were having a conversation the other day about how we've never had an elected governor that's a woman or president. We, you know, you look at your house of reps, you look at your senate. It's like four percent representation. Ridiculously, the percentage is low.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Meanwhile, women are half the population. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:47

So it speaks to, you know, we and it, and I'm I've always been confused by this disconnect between because culturally, we honor our women. You honor your mom, you honor your daughters, you have the umwadas that you ex like we we within that family context, that that honor and significance is there. But all of a sudden, when it comes to society, somehow the disconnect happens, and then we end up in a place like Nigeria where they're not even giving a step to the point where now they're debating a bill in the legislature to say we need to add additional seats that only women can contest for, just to even see is there a way to write this chip.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:27

So, what do you think about that? So I feel like after family, well, close relations and everything, out there the world is vicious for men and women. So, one political woman that has been very strong on her journey is Florence Itagiwa. However, she does, she does the same for all the men, however, they did it, they did it. Um, I'll draw an example from music, Lauren Hill. There was a time Leukim dropped an album and all the men railed back the album. They were like, Yeah, that's yeah, the album will put your lighters up that yeah. All the I mean, any man dropped an album after she dropped the album immediately. They didn't want to be drowned by her own the uh the success of her album. So that's the work that she put in. So you think it's a question of women putting in the work to get to it's not about women putting in the work, it's a question of the viciousness of society requires doggedness of some sort to achieve what you claim you want to have. Society in general. Whether for you guys to get to this point, you must have fought spiritually, mentally to achieve certain things and keep going at it. And there are so many great women. Maybe there needs to be highlights about those women as well. Because I'm sure there are great women in tech whooping us.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:50

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

I'm sure as patriarchal as you want to think the Igbo culture may be, Igbo man go respect woman, we will bar. As a matter of fact, he goes out, woman we will bar for office, as long as she didn't pay salary and she they treat them well. Yeah, so in my head, it's even Nollywood, you see saying that women go ground, but I'm not particularizing it. It's a general thing that in a society, because of the viciousness of society, for you to be the standout person, you have to prove it. You have to prove it. I'm not saying that women should not get equity for their contributions. However, once it's left where we all personally respect and all of us are outside by ourselves. If a woman can play football well, go ball, bro. It's if a woman can kick ass as a black belter, and you as a man, you are dodo, you're if it beats you, now you say, bros. But that's what the world is, that's what nature is. Nature is a vicious cycle existing on its own, and there are rules to that. So, in the equity form of it, is equity, equity is both sides. So for me to acknowledge for Jay-Z to say I'm the male version of Lauren Hill, you know what it is. For a rapper to say I am the male version of a woman in rap. Come on. How has how has been a girl that changed you? I kind of like feel like men that need love the most get women as kids. Because they choke you every day. Oh there's no, there's no, you are going to follow that play with Babby, you're going to and I've so also I feel like it's helped me just in the personal observation of life in general. Because typically I grew up barrack boy, um, Lagos Island. It's now crazy because you're the eloquent kids that are looked at as omoget inside. Like Botaro Getsin's. So in the barracks, I had to fight my bullies, like literally fight them and beat them too big. So um I've had all that rough around the edge experience so much. At least I gotta teach them boxes. Because in my head, I feel like that's helped me just be a bit more calm, just about my surroundings. Because they'll come, they'll and they smell nice. Are you gonna try for a boy or you're you're done? So I'm not really trying the way my life be, I'm kind of like happy for my son that has not come. Once you're coming to be this guy, so I genuinely am not necessarily trying. It's just I don't worry myself about things that I can't control. However, I'm watching. Oh, yes, and I would name my child myself. So it's between myself and the mom. But yes, it just helps you ease up as a man because there's so much tension as a man. Yeah. Again, I was in FestAg then, and my girlfriend was in the house, and there were armed men at the door. That was where I got the point. If T knock, na man, they go up and down. Last, last time. Right. So all that viciousness of life, having all this soft, girly, girly type thing, it kind of just helps you calm down, you know, and and balance it out. So I'm enjoying the experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

That's beautiful. Ebukayu has been a girl that changed you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:41

I don't know that it I think I've answered this before. I don't know if it changed me because maybe like you, I also grew up in a home where my mom and my sister were very like there. So I've said it on this show before where I knew about a lot of gender roles outside of my home, not even at home. Because at home it was sort of everybody does what they're supposed to do. And all these sort of disadvantages that women go through, or what culture speaks to with regards to women happened because I would go to the village and I would be called to going somewhere at nine, and my mom can't go. They're like, because it's only for men. I'm like, how am I a man? So I started all those things outside my house, not even at home. Um I never really doubted. I always wanted girls, or at least I wanted a daughter.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Um so it was more, I feel like I stepped into my role. Because like she's like you said, girls give you a lot of love. Um very extremely interactive, they make you more in touch with yourself. The way that society tries to kill. Yeah, you know, there's just a there's the way they are that you have to sort of become a lot less of what society said you said you should be, you know. So I I maybe on that level, I became a little more open. I was a very close book for many, many years. I was the kind of guy who never really bothered to share. But when you have a kid, my older one is nine now, it's gonna be ten in a few months, and the conversations are very open that place, you know. I always need to know. So maybe on that level, it just maybe a little more open than I would have been if I was chasing a Babasina, if you know what I mean. So let me let me let's get to our live original moments. And I got this email present dad in the mud.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

You already know what you're getting into.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

I'm currently fighting my family, and it's so weird. I love to cook, and my mom in particular finds it extremely offensive when she visits, and I'm the one in the kitchen. So now, this is what we're talking about. This is why I've been talking about culture and society and expectations. This is something very basic, right? You love to cook.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:26

Like Banky really loves to cook, I really do, and he knows how to cook because when he's cooking, he said, me, I'm happy. But now society says you shouldn't cook. I think we should we should partner. Let's hear, let the question land then. Let's see what you're doing. And I wonder, am I supposed to now redefine who I am and my role in the home in spite of what I love?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Go ahead. What do you think? It's okay to let your mom know their boundaries now. It's okay to let your mom know their boundaries now. So, me, my mom, then she comes to the house. I'm like, Yeah, my mom made sure what we all learned how to cook. At the point, before people started saying geeze dodo, I always give them gizada and dodo pee in the house. Like we always, right, so I know how to cook. My elder brother in South Africa taught his wife how to cook a lot of Nigerian dishes. Right. I know how to cook my other me, my younger brother are a bad guy. Right. So it's not a thing. However, I feel like one of the things that you must do as a man is when it gets to the point where you're raising your family, the rules that apply there only apply there. Yeah. And anybody that steps into that circle needs to understand that that's the rule that applies there, even if it's your mom. So I've I've cleared my mom before. Tell us about it. Because I know you opportunity to clear when I grew up. So that might be. So now you must collect your revenge. My bad all moved so. So I'm on now, you're gonna declare a deal. So she's gonna add it. Okay, so because I can be, I can throw my clothes on like the couch in the bedroom and stuff when I just come. So now we're gonna show you, no be your house, you do. This is my house. You know, they're out. So at the point, she was, I was like, wait, no, wait, did that demand be this? My boss laugh. I feel like you have to find your sometimes. It's okay to fight. As long as I'm not beating anybody, it's okay to disagree. That's what I mean. Yeah, because you like I was saying to my mom, so when she tries to force me to do something, I'll be like, Mom, do you know everything? Say no. Are you always right? No, forget this talk, bros. Right? So your mom will not always be right. Yeah, and if as a man, you need to become the one thing you must be masculine about is protecting what makes you happy. As a man, the one thing you must be protective about is what makes you happy. If you cannot protect what makes you happy, how can you protect your family, bros? And if cooking makes you happy, not your mother should be able to stop your happiness. Yeah, how do you handle it? And your mom should know that you like cooking. Ideally, your mom should know. Yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:16

So then there's also what our society says, okay, now you're married, even if you like cooking. Why is it that every time I come, you're the one in the kitchen?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:22

So I think for me, um I think I I know what that is like because I mean, just being on this show with you, you guess on parts of our comment section, we're gonna say, ah, this one's then be simple. This one's gonna be you know, you are just pandering to your wife or you're just whatever. But you know, you said something earlier that I think you said according to like Igbo culture, every man is a king in his own home, which is essentially the same thing as what you're saying, which is that within the confines of your house and your marriage, you and your wife need to decide what works for you. And if it works for you and it doesn't work for anybody else in the world, that's for their own pockets. If you are happy with the way you guys have decided what your rules of engagement are, then so be it. And nobody's going to come in there and live in the house with you. So, in my relationship, I'm the one that cooks because I love cooking. Like, you know, I enjoy cooking and I'm pretty good at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:25

I don't.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

So, you know, it's it's actually like one of the ways that I show love, you know. Like I like to cook for my family or friends that will come over. You know, like I'm one of those that'll cook for you and make sure, you know, what did you think? Like, I that's that's it's it's almost therapeutic for me. Like, life is stressful. Sometimes I'm just in the kitchen, I put on a sermon or something, and I'm just like, it's my way of decompressing. So I'm not going to change who I am because of the validation of a society that is not going to live my life with me and really doesn't generally care about me or care about my happiness or my fulfillment or anything like that. So if this is who I am and this is what works for us in our home, then let us do what works for us. And you, when you when you marry, eh, do whatever you like. And you and your wife, you sort yourselves out. But I think coming into marriage, that's one of the things that people need to understand is people can only give you advice and tell you what worked for them. It doesn't mean it's going to work for you. Yep. It also doesn't mean that what you are doing will work for somebody else, but you have to figure out what that is and come to a place where you and your partner are on the same page.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:38

Marriage is such a union. You need advice. So I think you'll need advice. So this is what I mean. Okay. Now you know who you did with.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's not like we can't talk. I genuinely feel like men, for example, need honest conversation spaces. Yeah. Where we're just real with ourselves, right? And as regarding taking advice with somebody you say you are in love with, the person you met by yourself. Like I missed a woman in the club, you would not believe, super homely. Who would have thought?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

And what was the first attraction? She was rapping heavy D. Okay. It's rap music, last class. You still found love. A rapper is a rapper. And I was like, huh, okay, she can rap. And everything. My first government was observing her toenails because the thing was breaking. She don't use the she don't think she don't pay that. She was like, who the hell does he think he is? In my head, is you know, let you can't take advice. The typical advice I would I would I would not I would have gotten that I heard before then is ah, no better woman for club. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

So I think I think I don't mean to stop you there, but I think I want to push back on the idea that you shouldn't take any advice at all, only because a lot of times people drown in the problems that they're having because they are too worried about going out there to hear good counsel from somebody. So I think listen and then decide what then would work, but don't shut yourself off from receiving any kind of counsel or advice whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:27

I genuinely haven't said that you can't take any.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

It's more so. So the way me I know it, if I get a woman, I will get an issue. There is one or two elder around her. Fine. That right? Yeah. However, if it's about say we can talk, yeah, say your relationship. I feel like it's the onus is on us to try and get to know ourselves as we change every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:56

Like it was a there was a time I was having a conversation with my woman, and I just then it clicked on it clicked to me that, huh? You know, for every time that we are angry, whatever we say, no, every time we speak, we write into our own consciousness. And we may not be able to forget a lot of those things that we say. Very true. This is with me observing as me and the person there. I feel like we need to also put the focal point on the decision making first. The individual that is going to pick another individual that they cannot communicate with in their real essential selves. Yes, there are certain things that you may not be comfortable with expressing, but it's onto you because that person you picked is that you picked that person for a reason. And somebody else may be advising you based on what has worked for them. And you and this person may have a different understanding from the person advising you. So you now stand a risk of thinking yours is not working because someone else's advice is not easing what you want to be eased. So I feel like we have to encounter the person. You a day with you. Yeah, I they look you, even when it comes to separation, togetherness or separation, bro. I day with you, I they look you with their linearm so that way we know that we're in a relationship, right? It's not like you won't take advice in certain instances, especially with with men with men, right? But the relationship must is a sacred thing, it's personal. Only you can know, and only her can know enough to advise each other, you know. So I feel like we we need to become more responsible on that level. Not that we shouldn't take advice or anything, but we need to be more engaging, yeah, yeah, engaging every day, every day, every day.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

If I can just add one last point on this, I think it dawned on me at some point that the person that I was when my wife married me, I'm a different person today. That was inevitable. And the same thing for her. So even if you are in a marriage, you are changing every day, every week, every year. You are you are evolving into somebody else. So the the onus really is on both of you to keep learning who you are. First of all, even being self-aware to know what's going on with you, and then relearning your partner and and giving grace for just just the evolving and the changing. And saying, even with all of this changing, we still choose each other, yeah, and we're going to figure this thing out together.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:39

When I was starting to do about if I just said to my that to inquire about it, I just said to my wife, um, I want to find more, found out, more, find out more about ancestry and the honest truths there. My wife is a she's a lover of the word. We'd share conversations based on that. However, we because of the communication, we now find um agreeing arguments on both ends. What she understood from scripture and what we have understood from O's. We find common grounds in certain conversations, and that way is building. So some of her own cousins will be like, How does it feel now that? You know, because I openly speak up about culture and tradition and our practices, not because and so typically in the Yoruba, if I understand, the only thing you bow down to is your head, not any idol, is your head. And I had to do that conversation because I knew that there was so much negative connotations to so many things, but because in my head, I believe that we must be able to communicate on whatever journey we're going on, so that we can both understand ourselves. So, this is also buttressing what you just added to it. Like, yes, we again back to what I was saying, it has to be between both of you, whatever it is that you're as you're changing, carry each other along as you change so that it may get to a point whereby if the change is not telling anymore, you both know that it's because the change is not tallying, not because they are fighting. Because that helps because it's human relationship. I know me, you know you, but we're knowing ourselves, right? And as you're knowing yourself, you're changing now. That you before this song, every hour, every day we're learning more. The more I know, the less I know about before. Right. So I'm changing, you're changing. I will carry you along as I'm changing. You carry me along as you're changing. As she's starting to admit certain ancestral sayings that tell you what Christ preaches, she makes it a point of duty to let me know, see what I found. Like how she found out the day that, like speaking of issue, right? How she found out what they dance in Jesus said, Oh man, who come here for peace. She said she was like, This is interesting. I'm like, Yeah, bro, issue day game. We must scatter it. If it's not good, we must scatter it. And that circumstance, so yeah, I agree with what she said in advancement.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:15

Not a day, great conversation, as expected.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:18

It was this it was a class session for me. Um, thank you very much, Vector. Shout out to the most people, first of all. Before they come for me, your bright press is heavy. Also, Anna Brassettes, my people. Anambala Anambala. Thank you very much, Vector. Um, there was no other option when we thought about who we speak on culture, and you've shown why. Um, but more than anything, I want people leaving this um conversation just sort of maybe starting to rethink what culture even is. Because if culture is not evolving, then is it really culture? You know, some things we like to hold on to and believe that this is what it is. There's a lot of things that we're culture that we know today isn't right. There's a reason why globally there's a fight against female circumcision, for example. Many cultures held on to it for decades as a way of curbing promiscuity and things like that. You know, that's another conversation. Like make it tighter. Yeah. So it's all of this. Well then, this is that show, okay. So I'm just my point just being like, yeah, people hold on to culture for a lot of things as a defense for how people act or how people are, but culture should evolve when you realize that it's not working or at its core, it can shift a bit and make everybody around more comfortable. Um well, we have to engage it to evolve it, truth. Yeah, the engagement doesn't necessarily happen. That's my point. People like to just say leave it. This is what culture is, you know, side digressing a bit. I remember when Chimamanda was made a chief in her village. Traditionally, only men get to be made chiefs. And it was a whole thing from a lot of people at the time. You know, the handshake, you both people do the three handshake and do it, but ideally, women shouldn't. And it was a whole debate as per why would she be giving a title? The world did not end. Her village is still standing. Nobody died. Whether it's right or wrong, now is a whole other conversation. My point is it happened and nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:35

Yeah. My point is exactly soldiers, my point exactly. And that was chief tennis title, too. So yeah, Ubering B or Korean, as you guys are saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:46

Yeah, so it's the thing for me with culture is we must honor it, but we must not be imprisoned by it if it does not serve to the advancement of where we are. You know, so there are things about it. We talked about respect today, we talked about the umadas, we talked about frustrating in Yoruba culture, honoring our elders. That's great. We we must honor that, we must hold on to that. But then there's there are other things within culture that we have to take a critical look at to say this part of it we have to let go. So we honor it, but we don't get imprisoned by it.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:21

It's it's actually on to us because guess what? The ancestors have done it how they know. Yes, and now that is all I always say. They've left us with the time they've done it they existed, and that was what's so now you then take it and you take that on and be like, okay, for this era, for this time, this is how we think, this is how we are. Yeah, like now, Ashoke used to there was thick ashoke, there's lighter ashoke. You know, at some point ashoke is going to become damn near if we keep going, cutting fabric level, but it's still ashoke. No, to be see through one day. There's already C through Ashoke, no, no, with um perforated holes and not stand for this. So I feel like it's people are not taking on to that responsibility of engaging culture, then advancing it to suit what the times are saying and the understanding that we have.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:09

I don't say I mean, I know we're going further and further, but it's just this staying rigid with culture is one of the reasons why. I mean, you have to be able to evolve. Even with like our food, for example, I mean, it's a maybe it's a different topic. But I think people get so angry, maybe they say you made joloff rice just a little differently. Oh my god, you have bastard. Meanwhile, that's the person is cooking spaghetti jolo, and the Italians have not crucified you. Do you own spaghetti? Yeah, say eh? You put vegetables inside your love. Ah, you're finished. You may you're cooking a boosting with granotes. Like people are just so they hold on to this thing so passionately. No, we're eating spaghetti in your house. You're eating pizza with uh dodo on top of it. Italians are not dodo and so you know, so let's be a little less passionate about things that don't matter. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Drop your comments, cheers guys. I saw rum sushi one day, and I was like, What?

SPEAKER_02 1:27:14

Ram sushi was a rookie. I would eat that.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:25

This season of mentality with abuka is brought to you by Schweppes and the Glen Left.