Ep 22 - The courage to care

What does it really mean to be an activist in today’s world? And what does it cost to stand up for what you believe in?

In this episode of Two Peas in a Pod, we sit down with cultural & political activist and feminist Radhika Ganesh for an honest conversation about womanhood, activism, politics, identity, and the realities of speaking up in a polarized world.

From navigating criticism to finding purpose, Radhika shares her personal journey, the challenges she’s faced, and why difficult conversations are necessary for meaningful change.

🎙️ If you enjoyed this conversation, don’t forget to Like, Comment, Share, and Subscribe to Two Peas in a Pod for more meaningful conversations.

Now streaming on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

Find us here: 
Instagram:  https://www.instagram.com/twopeasin.apod
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/two-peas-in-a-pod/id1838139422
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2Cd7eaiN7PF8HN0AvjRly4

#TwoPeasInAPod #RadhikaGanesh #WomenInPolitics #WomenEmpowerment #Feminism #Activism #IndianPodcast #PoliticalConversations #TamilPodcast #Podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:16

We are the most informed generation ever. We are constantly discussing things, reposting things. We know what's happening, everything everywhere. But most of us feel disconnected. A lot of us feel disconnected from politics. There is no participation. We feel like uh we have uh we feel powerless, but we want to know, we know about the issues. But somewhere between information overload and burnout, have we all become a passive generation of observers more than participation? That's happening there. Did I get that right? Like I just went with the flow. Have we become observers more than participants? Participants, yes. Thanks. That's why you need a sister and a co-host to correct you. Yes, more than participants. But so today's conversation is really going to be uh about that. Something that I got educated with recently about so many things, with none other than Miss Radhika Ganesh. She is a social activist. You cannot box her, she works in a grassroots level of politics. A cultural social activist. Yeah, a cultural activist. Cultural political activist. So we are going to sit here for another few uh minutes for an hour to enlighten us because it was true revolution and a lot of knowledge that I uh got to know about, learned about when I stumbled upon her profile on Instagram, which was I think all of us stumbled upon her profile on Instagram. All of us have. Yeah, and some of the things that she says, you are always like, yes, true, so true. And today we are going to have her sit on the couch with us and enlighten our listeners, our audience. We have a bunch of questions. So welcome to our show, Miss Radikhana.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Um it's a pleasure being here.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Thank you so much for agreeing to come. We're so glad that you, you know, wanted to do this.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yeah, immediately. And because I feel uh the conversations that we have been curating should hit a particular note everywhere. And this is a note that we haven't really hidden at all or even thought about, but I think is very necessary because when I kept seeing those videos, some of them I still have them saved that in a sense, like, okay, I need some child free time to read or listen to what she's saying because this is important, because it is important what you say. So let me go to the place when did it actually happen? When did that revolution actually happen where you decided, hey, you know what? This is what I want to do.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Oh my goodness, I think it started very, very early for me in my life. Um, I grew up as a kid with dyslexia.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Um, and um all through school, because of my neurodivergence, I was a very curious kid. I kept asking a lot of questions. And uh, luckily for me, though, I was born and raised within a fairly uh traditional um, you know, home. My grandfather and my mother were both rebels of a particular kind. You know, my grandfather insisted on um uh equanimity within the household. And my mother was first generation graduate from, you know, a woman graduate from the house, and you know, she in her own feminist way raised um my sister and I to be um fairly independent thinking women. Yeah. Um so it very early on in my life I had I had the space to rebel and and voice out and ask questions and constantly knead into things. Yeah. Um and um, you know, as a, as I was saying, as a neurodivergent kid, my ways of expression were not um were not similar to other kids. So you were constantly um, you know, held as an outlier, you were looked at as as a kid with some sort of a difference, and you know, so I went to five five schools. So wow. No school would keep me for more than two, two and a half years because they didn't know how to handle the kid with this much energy and that many questions. Okay. Um so the questioning sort of is the beginning of um what brought me to my life. Um I think around when I was 15 years old, I went and rallied in a political um, you know, gathering. I spoke in a period mango lail or peria meeting la. I had, you know, I I held the mic and I it just went. That's not nothing. That's amazing. Do you remember what you spoke on? Um I think it was it was the it was a rally to um campaign for a candidate from a very new party called Lok Paratran that didn't take off too much. Okay. It was four IITs who came together and said we're gonna create a great. Oh, I remember this. Yeah, it's and it was such a moment as a young kid. I, you know, I especially growing up in Tamil Nadu. Yeah, um, you know, everyday politics is part of your household, right? Everybody's watching news. My party was one. Peri a Jailalita fan. My, you know, my the rest of them in the family will say Kalanya, and somebody will say somebody else. So um and we were staying in a neighborhood where on one side we had GK Mupana, on the other side we had, you know, Nagajabamani. So we were you know corrupted by politics. And then there was this new party, and I was like, nah, I don't necessarily remember what I was. I remember um I was 15 years old. Um and my rebellion continued into college life. Um I probab probably in the history of uh NIFT India, I am the only student who um you know staged a strike and got kicked out.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

I wouldn't have guessed it that you went to NIFT. Yeah, I went to NIFT. I swear I thought that was some political degree or like some other sociology degree too. I really wished.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

I really wished because I do have intense interest in humanities, but um, you know, growing up in that era, I really didn't have the kind of guidance it needed. Yeah, yeah. So my and my mum, in in her sort of in her own way of empowering her kids, said, yeah. She's a lawyer, but she never insisted her daughters to study something that so I didn't I didn't know what my capacity was. I just went in, okay, this is fun. Fun, I'm gonna join. Okay, I'm gonna do I'm gonna do design in mind. And I also had a bit of skill, so I I went to join NIFT. Promptly got kicked out of NIFTO school.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

It was in history of NIFT, there wouldn't have happened a rally or a strike.

SPEAKER_03 6:41

You would not imagine NIFT kids striking. It took, I got all of 14 to support me. And 13 went back because they were threatened to like their grades will not be given. So all 13 went, I stood there alone saying, ah, okay, down, and they said ma. That's so cool. Yeah, that's easy to tell, right? Well, so that's that's sort of where it began. So it never really um, I I don't think I had a defining moment. I I think the moment where that really wrapped these things around a more concrete environment for me was um, you know, I I went and studied in London after that, and I came back and I said, you know, my my rebellious streak, my political streak continues. Um, I want to work with farmers, I want to do good, and you know, especially as a But it's so amazing that you had that I think you know, it's when you grow up as a misfit, you find ways to um, you know, create community. That was my need. My need, my need was I know I can't fit in with these people. Are there other people I can fit in with? And um I think when you have a voice. How beautifully that has turned out for you. Right? Like it's and in I really wish I I could tell more of my friends and you know, people I know if you have neurodivergent kids. Or even just the younger generation, right? Yeah, you know, that's amazing. This I think spaces that can allow them to voice their curiosity is so important. Yeah, yeah. So I started working with more serious movements when I came back, and that's when the anti-corruption movement was at its peak. Um, there was a lot of mobilization, you know, people were coming out, and I participated in Unavaradham, and I I didn't know what I was fighting, but I was fighting. Um, at one point, I was subjected to a lot of state violence, right? So I was arrested, I was dragged on the streets, and Facebook was a thing back then, and you know, everything was on Facebook, and my mom looks at it and she's like, Listen, child, I've always known your trouble, but I don't want a dead child in my hands. You need to learn what you're doing, you need to understand what you're standing up for. And I think at that point she definitely hoped it was a face because you know, you spend so much money sending your child away to study somewhere, and she comes back and she's like, you know, in clubs and the bad on the streets. So she's like, learn something in cover.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

But that's I I'm just learning so much about you on this couch, and it's like so beautiful that your mom sat you down and it's like have a purpose, what you're fighting for. I don't mind you fighting for it. I just don't want that kid, you know. Go ahead and do what you've got. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

My mom is is really um, you know, one of a kind. Yeah the the first time, not the first time I'm gone, a couple of times into me getting detained and arrested and things like that. Usually in Tamil Nadu, what they do is when they arrest you in a protest or something, they don't take you to a jail or a lock up, they take you to some Kalyana Mandabam type of place. And they'll sit you down and they'll give you some food and they'll give you some chai, four or five hours, and they'll let you up. But at that point, um, it was at the peak of the anti-corruption movement, and they took us to a Kalyana Mandabam. They said, weekend. Monday thing. Um like I'm I'm like, I'm very happy because Really? I love it. My next thing was how did you feel? I was very happy because we were at a group of friends in front of Kalyana Mandabam. And um, you know, and as a 20, 21-year-old, you have all of these fun stories to then share with your friends. Um, I hear that my mom is coming, so I'm very excited. I go up to my friends saying, My mother is a lawyer. You see, she's going to like bring us out, she's gonna break these guys down, and then she's gonna be very pissed off with them. And then my mother comes straight up to the cop and she says, uh, and she left me there. She said, You went in, you find your way out. Way out. So what is a story? I come back out and I'm like, she said, That's nice.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

So she just took her car keys and she she left. She said, You truly let you be in every sense of that. Yeah, I think that kind of support is really important from a parental side to achieve so much when you're enlightening so many people.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Absolutely, absolutely. I think you know, um, so much of what we become as women we owe to our generations before. 100%. Yeah, and many times we may not realize, and they may not be overtly um progressive or rebellious or liberal, but even the smaller things that they do, um, you know, um, really matter, especially as women it matters to us. You know, and the way my mother has raised my sister and I, I think we are so grateful for her. Um, and right now we are just a household of three women, plus my uh dog Aragi and my cats Sundari and Inji. And so it's just like a family of you know, women. Inji is our only boy, so we keep telling him you're the only one. You're the only one. I love to say this really special covenant of women. Um you know, so I think that kind of a journey really set me up for success. Um, and I uh at that point when my mom said, I don't want a dead child in my hands, so please go figure out what you're doing. Um, again, more women played fantastic roles in my life. I I took a uh leisure journey with um some girlfriends, and I said, Okay, I'm gonna take a break and I'm gonna um bike around Rajasthan for some time. And my friends and I were um traveling and then we stumbled into the right to information movement. And uh I met my mentor Aruna Roy, and I was awestruck, and I just looked at her and said, Can you teach me how to be an activist? And she looked, she said, That's not something I can teach you, child. You come, you live with us, you learn. Yeah, and that's it. She said that. I came back to Chennai, dumped my you know, fancy clothes, packed one bunch of like green chapona salva khummies, and went straight back, straight back to Rajasthan. And three years I committed myself. I I stayed there, I ended up there for five years, but the first three years I didn't even bother coming back home. I just lived there, I lived in the grassroots, I worked and I learned, I didn't speak a word of Hindi. So all I knew in Hindi was bachao, which means save, and guy, which means cow. So clearly I did not know the right words at all. Okay, no, shanti, oh, parapath. I learned like some two words. Okay. Um, so I stayed mute for the first one year. I just watched, I observed, and um it allowed me to absorb knowledge in a way that I wouldn't have if I'd known the language. So I'm catching the more nuanced aspects of these things because I'm not able to communicate, I'm only absorbing. Um, but after the first year, it became more easier. I started picking up the language, so now I speak Hindi, Urtu, Marwari, whatever. And uh yeah, so that's where so my the birthplace of my today's activism is Rajasthan. Okay. And uh the movement called Mazdur Kisan Shakti Sangatan, which is the birthplace of the right to information, birthplace of the 100 days work scheme. So some really important pro-people um laws have birthed, have been birthed there. So I'm very proud of um the beginnings that I had, the kind of formative years as an activist were with some very indomitable people who instilled in me not just the strength to be an activist, but also the ethics to be an activist. Yeah, and to process my own own sort of position um within society, right? Um because it's only when I went there that I, you know, come about the awareness of my own caste, class, religious privileges, where you come from really matters. Um yeah, so that's where my that's where that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

That's amazing. Yeah, like I don't think I would have ever, like, even if I so this is exactly what this episode is going to be, right? Like, how did you choose? Okay, yeah, you did say because you wanted to fit somewhere and create a community for yourself. But how did you know what it is that you wanted to create a ripple effect in, right? Like now I feel like the videos that you share, there is a lot of information. You talk about a lot of stuff, and it's not easy, it's not an easy job. You need to have like innate knowledge, innate passion, and it needs to come organically. Yeah, it cannot come because uh, okay, I've been in this, I'm gonna do, but the true work comes from a much, much deeper place. So how did politics also came, like you know, how how did it make its entry into all of this? Like, I know you work in grassroots level, you're a women uh um, you know, you're a feminist too, right? Like, and the way you've been raised, I can I I can tell why. Yes, yeah, it it it answers a lot of questions by itself, and the way you said how uh how our parents or how our mothers like paved the path silently or loudly, all that we are today is because of all of that.

SPEAKER_03 16:14

But how did you know which way to um I think um once you are made privy to injustice, it will take a very hard human being to walk away from that um unless and until you are truly sealed by you know very heavy privileges or you have vested interest that you don't want to let go, once you've seen the kind of injustices that I got to witness, whether it's in Rajasthan or MP after that, and you know, more recently in Kashmir, you can't walk away from those things. Um I don't that does I I say that with a pinch of salt. I don't think um, you know, on a day-to-day basis, just because we're able to or we witness one injustice, it doesn't mean everybody should turn into an activist tomorrow. But when somebody's had the opportunity to engage with that kind of depravity, um, kind of disadvantage and disenfranchisement that exists in society, um, it will really take a very, very hard human being to say, okay, I don't want to engage with this. Most of us will say, I will do whatever I can. And for so, and whatever we can is a degree, right? It's not one thing.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Um, it just so happened that for me, um I felt injustice is I still feel injustice very personally. Um, it hurts me to my bone when I see something like that. Um, I usually don't voice this because it sounds so dramatic. But um on an everyday basis, it pains me. I physically become incapacitated when I s when I hear or see something. It's probably also to do with how we process emotions, right? Um so to me, I my my way of processing was I have to act to do something about it. So when I see that, you know, when I see a table is lopsided, I have to slip something under it to make it right. So that's how I've processed every single incident that has happened to me. Um, and I think again, with the exposure, the kind of exposure I managed to get with both family as well as the activist world, I wanted to be like that. I had role models whom I absolutely loved, and I was like, damn, I want to be her, or damn, I want to be him, I want that life. I want, and I saw how um valuable their presence was to people's lives. And I said, Okay, so you don't have to be um, you know, because all through school, as I said, I was known as the troublesome child. And trouble was never really meant. It just happened, right? It just happened. I was just there, and and in fact, I am a fairly quiet child in the sense I don't prefer to speak too much. I just act, and then I've caused trouble. But then in that context, my trouble ended up as being good. Yeah. Okay, me raising a question and saying, oh, this can't be that. Yeah. And then they looked at me and said, Oh my god, correct. Can't be it. And then it result it started resolving issues, it started proving useful to somebody else, and um and then you go into a state of drunkenness.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 19:56

You uh you start you start drinking that that sort of the the the powerful juice of justice, yeah, yeah, and um you feel like okay, so if I can be that useful, then why um so I think I it came very naturally to me to choose to be that way, came naturally to me. Um it's also because I I'm a fairly um simple person in the sense um I didn't have too many needs in life. Um I don't know what to attribute that to because um when I went to Rajasthan and they told me you have bare basics, like literally less than bare basics for the first three, four years of me living there, we didn't have a toilet.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

I was just thinking that. I was like, yeah, you would be a person who wouldn't have too many knees, you'd be okay with wherever you go, and as long as you're making that effect, because immediately you said that, and then I was like, yeah, she went to Rajasthan, but like she just packed her bags, how would I do it? Like, what the hell?

SPEAKER_03 21:01

I had one rucksack with three pairs of clothes. One you wear, one you wash, one a spare, right? I had one Jody of Serepur for many years, and so my my my rucksack was infamous for 72 items. I had exactly 72 items, and since then, anytime I have interns coming to me or young people coming to me to learn the work, I tell them this is the list of 72. Anything more, I will offload it. Anything less, you won't get it. Right? Because where you are today, the world has changed. Yeah. 15 years ago, when I started, we had 2G network, Adakuda. I had to climb on top of somewhere. Yeah. So mom and sister could not reach out to me. I had to choose to reach out to them. Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

It clearly angered them a lot. Like for the first three years, mom refused to speak to me. She said, I thought this was a face. Okay, I I really think I gave you too much of a rope, come back home now. And I said, No, nothing doing. You said it, I'm holding you to it. So a sister came to visit me and then she went back home and gave Mama report. Okay, she's alright. She's okay. She's survived. And when my sister came, she keeps telling me, uh, I made her, I told her strictly, you can't wear sunglasses. And she said, It's so cool. How do you expect me to? I said, No. Community work panapora. Mean nothing community work panda. I said, no, nothing doing, you can't wear it. I have an image. I'm trying to do something. Don't walk in here with your sunglasses. And that's exactly what I told her. I said, listen, you cannot. And then she said, You're pretending like you don't own sunglasses. You're unethical. And it struck a card. It struck a card. And it's just like we fair.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

So you say maybe that was the part of your life where that shift happened, where you realized, okay, maybe I have these things, but do I want those things? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:53

Definitely. I think, but you know what? I will never deny the fact that at the back of my head, I always knew I have a fallback. Right. I always knew these are comforts I'm giving up right now. I can go back to it anytime. Anytime. Yeah. So even within the activist world, there are some of us who come from extreme privilege. And today it's a it's a running joke in our community. We say those of us who are rich can be activists.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

I'm glad you're making that joke.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

It is true. If you are privileged, then if you can take care of because in today's India, activism has zero space. Yeah. Zero space. Civil society has zero space. Either you have to be a very well-established foundation or an NGO that already is aligned to a corporate organization that is pumping their funds into you. And you are as good as a corporate organization and you say yes to everything that the government asks of you. Or you are a community organization like ours who gets absolutely zero funding.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Right? So there is no go-between. Many of us, many of my colleagues and friends, have been forced to shut down their organizations, forced to shut down exceptional work that they were doing because the funding environment has become so difficult in India. The surveillance is unimaginable. All of us, our phones are listened to, are constantly being hounded by the state. We're being called repeatedly to come and report on stations and ED cases and God knows what all. If we think politicians have it difficult, activists have it 10 times more difficult.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

I'm sure they're the ones who have it 10 times more difficult.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

You know, because we don't have political safeguards either. Initially, number by numbers, we had some safeguard. Oh, okay, if you do something to this person, 10,000 people will gather on the streets. But we no more have access to 10,000 people. And that's a conundrum because we live in, as you opened, you said, you know, we live in a time where we are most connected and most well equipped. And yet I can't use social media to rally people because immediately they'll shut me down. Uh, Twitter accounts are blocked, and Instagram pages are pulled up. So we're really not in a free environment anymore. And to be an activist has become very difficult. And uh many of my colleagues and friends who were doing exceptional work and were truly community leaders have um perished. And um I we're all hoping at some point, you know, history will take a turn. And you know, because no society can survive without activism.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Oh, I'm at agree with you. Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

Um people's voices must always be heard, and to organize and to agitate is an absolute right of a human being. Of course, yeah. Um, and today we live in a political climate that disallows all of that in a very brutal, brutish way. So um, all jokes apart, I think life has been um turning, twisting and turning in ways that we're not able to really comprehend. So, as I said, if we are um fairly privileged, we continue with our activism. But even for someone like me, um running Carney Nilam and you know, young people for politics has been extremely challenging one after the other.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

I'm sure. I'm sure you'd be able to relate to it. They are the NGO. So my friends, two of my friends uh started this NGO like about four or five years ago. Uh, but we just chose education. So we teach communicative English uh for underprivileged kids. We partner up with government schools, shelter homes, and community centers. And right now we're we're we're in the summer break, so we have summer workshops, but we're also part, you know, trying to find new partners. So every once in every week we reach out to new centers and we're like, okay, is this something we can do to the children here? Can you help us mobilize kids who would benefit from this? And the biggest challenge for us has been to get those kids to come to class. And when we go and reach out to these partners, we find out that uh, you know, although the education, like you can have a certain number that shows up. When the government comes to take your uh data, they say, okay, these this is our strength. But then that's actually not true. Post-COVID students don't want to come to class, they don't want to learn. And even if you guys are gonna come to class, maybe the first class I can have the kids. After that, they're not gonna want to come. So just for something which is very, very uh distal like education. Yeah, and it's communicative English. And and we've started we're doing this trying to bridge the gap between education and employability. Yeah, that's it. So we face a lot of challenges, even with funding, like you said, that just resonated because now we're like, okay, let's try to find funding. Although we work on a completely volunteering basis, we do have you know resources and materials. So something just for education, I can only imagine, you know, uh how into 10 or 100 it must be for you guys. Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:56

So you know, because I love the initiative and I think it's so critical and so important. Um, and uh, you know, those of us who grew up in Tamil Runada, we know how important English can be.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Unfortunately, kids in other parts of the country don't they know it, but they still don't have access to it. Um, and that is also, you know, getting diluted or forcefully getting diluted now. We are, you know, we're trying to introduce a third language and um but you know when we talk about funding for nonprofit work, or when we talk about funding for um grassroots work, the critical key element there is as I was saying, you and I can afford to volunteer. But if I want a community young person to commit their time, for me to tell them you have to forego progress in your own personal life to be able to then do this work. So giving back to community essentially means you escape work is just so unfair. Right? I want to be able to remunerate this young person and make this activism can also be a very viable uh livelihood. True, right? So it must be a livelihood. You know, I keep saying this about politics as well. In our country, we treat politics as though it's some period, yeah, there is all of that and that. But unless and until we think of it as a professional commitment, yeah, right, you are not going to hold people to exalting standards, which is exactly what is happening right now. Yeah. And all of our you know, engagements with public is oh now um, no. Yeah, you're making a choice.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Right?

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Don't elevate yourself into a position of savior because you've made the choice. I'm I will appreciate your choice if it is useful to my life. Um, but I don't think that should be the only way we approach politics, whether it's people's politics the way I absorb it.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

We really need to talk about this. We were given this on the lap right before we could record, and uh, we wanted to save it for the podcast. First of all, thank you so much for something so thoughtful. I'd definitely be using this because I'm a voracious book reader and I'll put this up.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Nice. It's a very, very interesting photograph. So tell me about this. How how do you is this from is this a part of the community you have?

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Yes. So um Ekport Lidki or Karni Neilam works with over 60 plus marginalized communities across multiple states in India. Um, as I was saying, we are not a registered NGO, you know, we don't have big funding. We don't on pr in principle, we don't take institutionalized grants or funding because a lot of our work is political in nature, and we want these communities to have the freedom and autonomy to speak their, you know, you know, their voice should be heard without any restrictions. The minute somebody gives you money, they get to tell you the pananged. What to do. So um most of our work is entirely community-driven, um, largely independently funded. So these are all stories from each of these communities. Um, and we create them into story cards, bookmarks, and postcards, and calendars and posters, because we believe that um a big part of our work is documentation. Because we are a cultural and political.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Thank you. And I'm I needed to know about this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

So uh each of these um so all of them come with stories, um, and these are people and communities with whom we work. Um, our work is very different in each of these communities. For instance, uh Tamil Nadala, we've worked extensively with the fishing communities in all 14 coastal districts of Tamil Nadu. We've traveled, we've lived with them, we've documented them because largely when we say meenavargay, there is a certain stigma to that community, right? The way we see them. In the Tamil even in Chennai, when you want to go to North Chennai, there is a certain image that North Chennai has. There's a certain stigma that comes with being from Nord Chennai. So, how do you then destigmatize these communities? Right? I've also given you, for instance, you're holding a tribal um yeah, so this is from the Bhaiga tribe in um you know in uh Madhya Pradesh.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Yeah, okay. Right?

SPEAKER_03 32:32

So um the Gonda and the Bhaiga tribes from uh Madhya Pradesh. And these communities are also heavily stigmatized because you look at them and and this they look a certain way, they don't feel a certain way. So, how do you then destigmatize these identities? Um, the reason behind wanting to destigmatize them is because um inequality begins with stigma. Yeah, oppression begins with stigma. Oh, that person doesn't look like me, sound like me, speak like me, feel like me, so they must not be my equal. Right? So to explain to a larger public, especially young people and children, uh about the diversity in India and why these communities are so different yet belong to us, we started telling stories. And we realized we can't just um tell somebody else's story. There needs to be an ethical way of these stories being narrated. Um, so we over 10 years, along with all of these communities, we've built what we now called an ethical framework for documentation. Uh so we give it to young students, we give it to uh scholars and researchers, we tell them when you go into these communities because we often tend to exoticize them. Yeah, right? Yeah, ingeparang, exotic tribe. You know, and you know, um in our um there's a very crass usage of words um in the NGO circles, it's called poverty porn. They say, you know, you to go take pictures of poor people and then you glorify it as part of your report or as part of your brochure. Um it shouldn't that's not how you tell stories. So then how do you ethically and sensitively speak their stories without usurping their rights? Um and um how to archive these stories, how to share them. So we've been working, so that's a big part of our work. Um we believe that the more we learn about the diversity in India, the better equipped we will be to protect it.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Right?

SPEAKER_03 34:33

And today the biggest threat that's posed in our posed against us is that we're trying to homogenize everyone. Everyone should be. Yeah. You know, even whether, even if it's you know the Hindu identity, yeah, who is Hindu? Many of these communities today call themselves Hindu, Hindu. Yeah, right. They've had their they have their own cultural practices, they have their own rituals. So can we try and learn about all of these? And many of them, like for instance, the postcards speak about um you know climate resilience and and you know local communities have so much indigenous knowledge, right? Right. And um, say today we are facing so much climate crisis. We are in the middle of global warming and so much is happening. These communities can actually give us tools to operate better in these situations, right? Um Chennai Madri or a seashore or a coastal city can take so much from the fishing community to learn about climate resilience, how to respond to receding seas, how to respond to you know thundering storms. They have that knowledge. So can we integrate all of that knowledge? And then what we do is we take all of this and then put them to policy level use. So we take this, we package them in different stories, and then we take it not just to general public, um, we take them to schools, we take them to colleges, but we also take them to politicians and bureaucrats, we take them to secretariats, we take them to assemblies in parliament, and we tell them, hey, these are the stories. Now, how do we use this to make better decisions?

SPEAKER_02 36:11

That's amazing. That is so. Do you ever feel like the young people feel disconnected from politics? I mean, you guys are exceptions, right? Exceptions can't be examples. I agree. It cannot be. Like, you guys, like how many of us in this room would choose to just like, yeah, I want to make a change, it enrages me too. But does it enrage me to a point where, like, hey, I need to act? But you interact with people from different communities, different culture, and then you interact, come back. You you're here in urban setup. I'm sure you have a lot of friends who do normal things, like you know. Like I said, you're an exception. Exception to exception. How do you feel? Do you feel urban people? It's so beautiful how you have like kind of bridged the gap and like formed a beautiful network between culture, communities, and politics. And you feel like that's gonna save our climate change, our you know, receding seas. It's it takes a different kind of what do I say, passion?

SPEAKER_01 37:14

I want to call it because also talent, I think, to not see these things as individual objects and to create a sort of system with all of them, you know, and keep that system going. Because I feel like your cause is a system, it's not an individual.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yeah, I strongly believe it's a system, and I think one of the reasons why I believe that uh is um, you know, my mentors who are all you know very strong feminist influences in my life, taught me very early an important feminist rallying call. And it says, personal is political. Everything we do, we say, the way we conduct ourselves is political. It's a choice, right? The words that come out of our mouth, it's a choice. Yeah, um, and those choices are constructed by the systems we are born into. Um, and it it's not every day that we get to challenge these systems. Often we all just want to survive, yeah, right. So to not challenge that system is how we survive. Um, but for many communities, not challenging is not an option when life is really difficult. You know, you asked me, are young people political? Are they interested? Uh there's an irony today. Urban young people.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

I want to know that. Like, how do you feel?

SPEAKER_03 38:31

It's an irony because it's only when we are young we are most idealistic. Yes. Right? Yes. And idealism is sort of the crux of a political environment. We thrive because we are idealistic in politics. But today, the same young people have become so complacent. Um, it's also information overload and burnout and everything that we're talking about. Um, but this is precisely why we started Young People for Politics in 2019. We've we were we had spent so many years working in the grassroots, seeing young people from absolutely nothing, uh, who live extremely political lives because their life demands it. Right? Everything from certificate to getting water in your, you know, getting a pipeline to your village to getting a road laid, you go to an office, you go to a government office, you speak to a panchayat, you speak to a collector, you're constantly writing applications, you're constant, so you're engaging with a democratic setup. You're engaging with an administrative setup. And then you come to urban India and you see kids who have zero idea how to get their own driver's license application, right? Forget driver's license. Most of our kids don't know what it takes from the parent to send them to school. True. Yeah. Right? Schools have become so unaffordable.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:53

And we're constantly trying to do better for our kids. We constantly want better, but better is relative. What is better? And if we keep raising that bar, we're never going to be able to give them the best. Yeah. Right? So we saw these kids, and and um it was sort of 2019, there was an election, and we said, okay, how are young people uh you know engaging with politics and electoral politics? Because until then we were thinking of people's politics, you know, everyday politics. Okay, electoral politics is important. Young people are the ones who are making and breaking things because at that point, you know, the the conversation around uh social media had just really boomed, and everyone was like, oh, Twitter opinions, so now you make or break a government. So, okay, you're making and breaking governments on Twitter. So that means you guys hold so much power. Do you know that you hold this power? Power. Yeah, right? Your opinions matter. So we wanted to bridge that gap. We wanted to bring urban young people and rural young people together for conversations, for engagement, for exchange and education. Um, so we started and very rapidly, we were one of the first few organizations to start using Instagram for visual narrative political narratives.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Right? Um, we, because I was a designer myself and I had so many designer friends, we said, okay, let's visually tell political stories. Um, can we create interesting material that kids will, you know, carousel around and say, okay, I learned something from this. Right? So we started doing all of that. Um, 16 states, about 70,000 volunteers, um, you know, 25,000 plus young people who enrolled and worked and supported. Since then, we've worked on almost 40 plus elections, right? And um young people mobilizing themselves to analyze the election, talk about it, um, exchange ideas. In 2021, we created a one-of-a-kind youth manifesto that the you know, the uh Progressive Alliance adopted into their manifestos, including the DMK and you know, they um the VCK and Congress and everyone was like, okay, we'll take points from you and we would put it in our own manifesto. And we were able to get those kids to then follow up on what needs to be done. And so many good things that happened in Tamil Nadu, we are now able to proudly say, okay, we had a hand in it because we put it in our manifesto. Yeah, true, you know. Um, so I it's easy, it's well, it's increasingly more difficult to politically engage young people, especially since 2029, to 2029 to 2026. Sorry, 2019 to 2026, there's been a massive change. In participation, in participation, in the quality of participation, in what they believe is political.

SPEAKER_00 42:53

Okay, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Um, to tease each other, to rail up each other, to troll each other has become political. Politics, exactly. It's okay, you know, and it's sad. Yeah. Because from an environment where I believe Tamil Nadu had some of the most politically mature environments for young people to thrive in, yeah. It's just come down crashing.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

And it saddens me. Um, and I think all of us have to assume some amount of responsibility in that because we didn't see it coming. Yeah. Right? We definitely like this just a sea of some weird shape. I can't even, I still can't comprehend it. Right? And um, and I think that's where again I go back to the responsibility of how you tell stories, even if it's cinema. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

For me, uh the when I what politically moved me, I mean, call it stupid, whatever, that uh, you know, either it's the final scene of those three young people going in there, just three seats. That I think that'll forever stay in my brain. And that end card like that, right? Not stupid at all. I think all of us had a moment. It was so phenomenal how they went out. But do you ever feel like uh the young urban people understand how much politics affect their daily life?

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Uh yes and no. It's yes because in Tamil Nadu we've seen a landslide victory for somebody who has no political background.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_03 44:23

Um, because they don't know why they voted him into power.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

Exactly, exactly. Because it's okay to be on Instagram and create that kind of a wave, but do they really know?

SPEAKER_03 44:34

No. So their knowing stops at, oh, I know I want to change. It doesn't go into, oh, this is what I want to change from, and this is what I want to change it into. And that's the level at which ideology works, right? This very superficial, I know I want to change, it it um sort of undervalues the work of so many decades of people. Right. Um and especially in a state like Tamil Nadu, where we have consistently had political engagement. Um, we have done better in education, in healthcare, in all of the basic amenities. Um, you know, for the past two years, we've consistently been taking workshops and exhibitions of, you know, Tamil Nadu and its political history to young people outside of Tamil Nadu in hopes that they will be able to, you know, sort of learn something from here. And to then realize that, oh, you didn't do enough in, you know, back home.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Yeah, you let it slip.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

It's it's been a very rude awakening for me. Because I kept taking information from here and saying, look what Tamil Nadu is doing. Because very bluntly, I say this in every conversation: you take UP, you take Rajasthan, you take MP, take any other state, except for maybe Kerala. We are 25, 30 years ahead of them. As far as economy is concerned, as far as all basic infrastructure is concerned, you know, as far as education is concerned, we're 30 years ahead. Yeah. How did we land up there? We all started off in the same line. Our starting point was the same, but we're running faster. And we're likely to be punished for running faster. Right? Um, so I keep I kept taking all of this and showing those kids there. And then it was only towards the very end, you're we felt like, oh my god, these kids need to see what life is like outside so they don't end up there. Yeah. So then we started, we started taking people from here. So toward like election Korama Samunari, we started taking content creators from your colleagues from your saying, come see you, please. Let's not come back.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Um, but it it was too late. We've all been blindsided and I decided, and I think um it's um it's an awakening to now. Um so I don't have an answer, you know. I don't know if if young people are politicized or not. Because the the answer today, the no the no immediate answer is yes, because they brought a political change. Yeah. But it's also no, because what political change towards what?

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

So um we are in a a sort of um um half and half situation.

SPEAKER_02 47:25

Yeah. That's so sad, but isn't it? But it bright when you said the ideology, that's where the ideology is at, right? Like, what do you want out of this change? What is the change? But like we have, it's just that we've created that's where the real ideology is. That like uh runs something in my head. And I was like, yeah, like why do we not look at we look at so many things so passionately? Like I name it, like all of us have our own passions, but why has today politics has become such a big change and it's a movement? Like, why did we not look at it on that level? Like, why how come it did not get on that level for the youngsters? Or like, you know, why did it or are they too cynical? Like, I think I think our older generation got very complex. Complexant, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

Because they felt like we've done the work, let our kids chill. Chill. Right? Yeah, we've done the political work. Yeah, yeah. Let them maybe I don't know. I you know, I want to ask my older colleagues, um, you know, did you feel like you don't want to pass on the burden, or did you think we didn't need it because you've already set it up? Yeah. Uh, because either way, you've unfortunately you've failed. Yeah. Because and I feel that too, you know, I I know you know, often uh we club ourselves, I club myself in the young category, but I work with like Gen Zs and Gen Alpha, and I don't feel very young around them. And I'm constantly just thinking about did I fail you? Like, have I not done enough? And to me, as of today, I think the answer is yes. I think I think we've failed in in not guiding them towards a political anchor.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:11

I think their access points are all so free-flowing, right? Um, Instagram and social media and and news is so untrustworthy today. So we've just really not give directed them towards places that can anchor. Um, and I would also I have a big grouse with the political class in Tamil Nadu because I feel like it is somewhat of a fear that disallowed them from creating those spaces. Right. I often I often tell colleagues in the political, electoral political space, you know, leaders, I tell them ungurode that you will create rivals, or you'll create equals or you'll create, you know, opponents. You stop people from politically educating themselves. And look where where that's landed us.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:03

You know, because um Tamirinada does not have student politics. Yeah, it doesn't. Colleges don't have unions, nothing. And at the yeah, because when you have student unions, it's usually the um left parties or the right-wing parties that get to capture these institutions. Our Dravidian political systems have never had very strong student presence. Unless, you know, 60s and 70s, yes, but not more recently. Yeah. Um, so instead of putting the work to create it, we just shut it down entirely. Um, one chief minister after the other chief minister said, Okay, this is not important, let's look at it later and look where it's exactly.

SPEAKER_02 50:44

I was just like thinking about this.

SPEAKER_03 50:46

Right? So then as an activist, now my role is to say, okay, we have a new new chief minister, let's hold that person accountable. Yeah. Let's now make sure that they put safeguards in place and bring back political education to his own young people. You know, I I feel terrible for them because we spent so much time insulting them, they showed it to us. I really feel like they got very ego-bruced. And they're like, all you oldies are insulting us, saying that kuri and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

Exactly, my mom says the same thing, you know. So growing up, it was like we come from a very ADMK household, you know, and my granddad wrote uh Jarata's first Kandi speech in the party, it's in it's in the movies, right? Yeah, all of that. And like it's a very strict household. Like we were discussing in another episode, like politics is never like a no around the dining table. Our parents are constantly trying to tell us about the struggles, like how my uh mom's dad was in political office and the things that he had to see, the struggles they were raised, and my dad also they it it was, and then you get married into a family like this, you're seeing all of it. And my I mean, my mom and dad got married then. What a what a polarized like beautiful like my mom's wedding was on the front page of Tamil News. Next episode should be me asking you questions. Tali kurta day MGR da like you know, and my dad was like this huge MGR fan and all of that. So very educated on our culture, our Tamar culture, our Dravirian culture, and all of that. And so happens growing up, we were always those two people who would never say Tamar Tiriya. You know, we would never say that to sound cool or look cool. We were very proud of our identity. And then, like, now when you sit down with people and like us, and do you know the struggles? Like, you know, and then they will come like, Did you know?

SPEAKER_01 52:43

And it's like we were educated on it, nevertheless. But I think that is the sad part, right? Like, even only recently it was under the magnifying glass, but even over the years when we didn't have a need to educate ourselves about it, yeah. Why didn't we make an effort? I think on as a collective whole, I don't think we know so much of the work that we have done, so much of what we have achieved as a state, so much of what we have gone through and how we actually have it good. But we just hold on to these one or two terms and we just say, okay, I want to change because this is what we're going through. But that's not even the situation.

SPEAKER_03 53:16

What burns me is the lack of gratitude. Yeah. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not the one to say, oh, we have to kiss the hands of the political class because they did something great for us. No. We need to be aware of the path that was laid out for us, which is what I want for the younger generation. You choose differently. That's your absolute right. You know, it's your democratic right. In democracy, it it we do want to have new players in politics. But don't do it out of lack of gratitude. You know, don't I I absolutely dislike this entire Tia Satti narrative. I can't stand it. Not because I I don't, you know, you're not asking me if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with it. I'm just saying, as, you know, as a kind of political environment and culture you want to breed, what you've done is absolutely wrong. Because when you take something that has you know paved way for all of us, including yourself, for 70 years, and then you just disparage it as you know evil. Yeah, yeah. I it for to me that was so unpalatable. Right. Um, and I want our young younger generation to grow up knowing, you know, as I said, it's it's everything that I I am today, it's because my mom had her struggles, my grandmother had her struggles. If we forget, and if we say, okay, I'm gonna lay it. Right? I was just born great. No, you weren't. Yeah, right? There were so many people who walked ahead of you. Yeah, yeah. Let's be cognizant of it. Forget gratitude. Just cognizant of it. Yeah, they laid the path and hence we are here today. And anything that is drastically and dramatically different to this may be detrimental to the progress that we've already made. But um, fortunately or unfortunately, they're not claiming to be drastically, you know. Somebody today, yesterday in a meeting, somebody said, Oh, do you know their Neo-Dravidianism? I say, Dravidinism. They're not Neo-Dravidianism, and now right? I'm happy with Dravidianism. Why do you want Neo-Dravidinism? What is so wrong with Dravidianism that you want to replace it with something new? Yeah, right? Articulate it for me. Talk to me about what this has not done. I can tell you, right? I have many grouses with Dravidianism. I think we've failed you know as gloriously as we've done well. And those failures have to be subjected to criticism. But that's not what you're doing. What you're doing essentially is saying it parasite, it's the evil, it's not puddusa, it's that makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_02 56:05

No, but have you like you know, the short form real content that you're putting out there? That's what got me curious. And I I was like, we need to get her on a uh podcast, we need to pick her brain on so many things because this is not something I'm just doing for the listeners or for the audience, this is something I'm doing for myself too. Like I told you, I have so many of your content saved, I need some child free time to sit and like you know, go through all of it. How do you think that will have an impact? Like, you know, I feel that created an awareness. Like, do you strongly believe that creates a wide range of awareness?

SPEAKER_03 56:40

I'm learning now that it does. Yeah, right? Uh, because I'm not new to this. I've spent 15 years in this life, in this line of work, saying the same things. Yeah, I just finally stumbled upon a way to say it that makes sure people listen to it. Three minutes is all they have to spare for even the most important conversation. So then I'm forced to package it the way they will hear it. And it's been a struggle because most of the things that I want to talk about, I want long-form content.

SPEAKER_00 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Right? I I want to write about it in 18 pages or talk to you for like two hours. I don't want to be talking to somebody for three minutes, but I've now understood that that's what time demands. That's what you know, young people reach. Correct. So um it's very demanding, it's very challenging because yeah, and I don't necessarily make reactionary content. I'm not just talking about somebody said this, so I'm gonna say it. Um, I diligently write every morning, you know. My colleagues know I wake up and the first thing I do is I'm I'm writing. Yeah, it is so beautifully put together. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

It is so well articulated. It it says what needs to be said, but how do you know which is the important part? Because I feel like all of it is an important part, right? And today's climate.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

And I think that's a conscious choice I made. Um, I didn't want, I didn't want to create just a free-flowing conversation, which I'm thankfully facilitated um by other people. Like you've invited me for a conversation, now I'm able to speak at length. Then I said, what is it that you don't get to do? I want to be, and I love writing. I I read a lot, and you know, I want to say it in ways that that brings some amount of um culture to it, some brings a brings some amount of history to it, and you know, all of those elements. So I diligently write, and then I I write many, I record a few, yeah, um, and then I pub uh publish even fewer. So um that's sort of been the process. Um, and it's very difficult to keep up, I must say. Because the motivation shifts, right? Um, especially when you see comments and when you see all of that, yeah. And you're just like, I was about to get to that.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

Does it ever get exhausting or like has it ever been a scary moment when you had published something that you felt needs to be said? Absolutely needs to be said, but people are thinking about it saying, but because you wrote about it or published it or said it, like you feel a little bit like, hey, did I absolutely I think um many times, not just writing and publishing, even the work that we do.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Yeah, many times the work that we do can be and is um inconvenient to communities that are already opposing communities we work with. Yeah, right, or say the government or anybody in a situation of power. So backlash is so common. Um backlash is an everyday thing in our work, um, and it can demotivate you. I've had forget emotional demotivation, I think broken bones and you know all of those things definitely push you one step back. But thankfully, I've always all had colleagues who support me in exceptional ways that we invariably bounce back.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

I'm having like this completely new perspective on uh activists and like you know, the work that you do. It's something else. The way I look at you, I'm looking at you like a celebrity right now. You are a celebrity.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

You are one, like you know, crazy celebrity. I think you are a person of impact. Thank you. Okay, so a lot of the work that you do is at the grassroot level. You are your work is on the ground, in the field, with the people in real in reality. So tell us about some experience or one experience that just entirely changed you.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Okay, I have too many, and it's very difficult to pick one. Uh, but I think uh the most recent um exchange, uh, you know, of course, Tamarinaditavart, I spent a couple of years in and out of Kashmir. Right? And I was just saying Kashmir is a very difficult place to live and work in because um uh there are no official records, but unofficially the count is um one armed security personnel to every 19 citizen or civilian. And it is the most militarized zone in the world, not Gaza, not Iran, not Ukraine, it's you know, within India in Kashmir. Um so kids wake up to guns, you know. Um, and I've I've heard parents sharing stories of extreme loss and pain and trauma. Um and we went in there as we always do with um, you know, with an open mind, and we said, we're not going in there. We never go into a community saying we know what to do. We go into the community saying we're here to listen and learn, and then let's see what comes out of it. Each of us have a skill. Can we put that skill set to use? Um, and we've over the years worked extensively with cultural communities, communities that have art and craft and you know rituals and practices. Um, so we were looking to engage with uh cultures in Kashmir. So everything from food to language, we were just exploring. And one thing that struck us, um, we met a lot of young musicians. And these are uh so usually our work is in the folk space, um, more grounded, more rooted. Uh, but in Kashmir, we started engaging with contemporary artists because we felt like in a very controlled, secure and or insecure environment, uh, young boys were using music um and poetry as a way to express themselves and talk about issues that plague their life. I was oh, how interesting, right? Yeah, um so they are yeah, you see that in every community, like for instance, samarnat like rap music and all of that, yeah, borrowed from black cultures. It's part of how you um, you know, raise your voice. But to hear that in Kashmir was interesting. Um, and some of these young men were topping global charts, you know. We were meeting Fahim Abdullah and you know, all of those newer uh artists. And one thing that was so stark was where are the women? There are a few women, not to discredit them, there are a few women. It's an extreme struggle for women to find that space, right? And um, even the women who are doing well for themselves and are singing and creating art are doing are not doing it in their own name. So they have pseudonyms to represent themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Is that entertaining? It's an easy time and age. It's a very good whose fault is it that it has to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

It's no one, that's the thing, you know, it's no one for no one person's fault. It's a structural difficulty. Because A, yes, there is the religious angle, there is the cultural angle to it, um, but there's also the political angle. It's a very unsafe environment. So families fear for the safety of their children. You know, to be visible means you're being surveilled. Right? So even their boys have a little bit more freedom in saying, ah, I don't care if I'm being surveilled, I still want to be famous. Women can't say that, right? Girls can't say that. Um, so and women also naturally feel like they don't want to be that kind of outliers. They don't want to hurt their families, they don't want to disrespect their elders. So I said, okay, then how do we find a work around this? Because um, women have a lot to say. Yeah. And they have a lot of political energy in them. So, how do we bring that out without putting them in danger? Um, because in Kashmir, you also have to be very cognizant of not just the dangers to yourself, but the dangers you can cause to other people. So we said, okay, let's not do anything uh overt. Can we think of covert, intelligent, inspiring ways of doing this? So we've now helped them create um the first all-women anonymous artist collective in Kashmir. And it's aptly titled Shh.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

Oh nice!

SPEAKER_03 1:05:16

So uh Shh is creating its first album has created its first music album. That's amazing five first-time independent um women artists uh representing themselves anonymously through this album. Um, each of them performing. So we have multilingual, multi-genre compilation album. That's amazing. We have um we have a folk musician, we have a rapper, we have a pop uh you know, rock ballad. So it's really interesting, and we didn't want to make it a backyard project. So we got experts involved, we got industry people involved, and we said, come train our young women.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

So we had rounds of uh workshops with them. It was so difficult because they couldn't tell you. I was just about to get to that. Yeah. Yeah, they couldn't tell their families, they couldn't tell their friends. So um we had to a lot of trust building had to happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

Yeah. How do you just go into a space like that where you have a gunman for every 19th person, right? And get them to trust you and be like, hey, listen, I'm here to do some good for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:25

And I think we failed as much as we succeeded. Because we were forced to leave Kashmir after a point because um, you know, there was so much turmoil, there was so much backlash, so many questions that you never, as an activist, I've never been blamed for siding with the state. Right? That's the other thing. I've always told you against the state. But in Kashmir, I was all of a sudden I was state sponsored, and I'm like wondering, where did that come from? And then you realize that the rumor mill is how they attack you. Yeah, right? The state has a hand in it, the community has a hand in it. You can never figure it out. You can never figure it out. So all of my friends, you know, advised us to leave. Um, but of course, the work continued. Uh, these women have been absolute magic. Um, so strong, so powerful, brilliant poetry. They've written about everything from love to friendship to loss to longing. Um, so we are very proud of the album. We haven't released it yet. We're hoping to release it. Um, but now, as step two, the album needs to create some visuals because we live in a very visual world. Uh so the um music needs some visuals to match. So we're inviting artists to come and help us. We're helping inviting people. We have a buy me a coffee page.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:49

So if your listeners want to support us, if there is anybody out there who wants to be there, yeah, like my tongue just went rolling again.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

I'm sorry. But yeah, if there's any visual director, if there's any cinematographer, any director, anybody who can bring these beautiful songs and poems and everything, these tracks to life, please do write to us. Please do reach out to them. Yeah, and buy me a coffee. And buy me a coffee. Yes. Buy me a coffee. Please do follow, buy me a coffee, follow Radika Ganesh, and follow thus have a page.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:19

So, yeah, so um they can find the link to our buy me a coffee on my on my Instagram page.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:24

Okay, this would be your contribution to your community. We all can contribute in small, small ways that will kind of become a compound effect. I think this is a great initiative.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

And I think this will be a great contribution because congratulations on that breaking years of generational curse, years of taboo, years of what was a no, and turning that into like a gateway for people to just be able to create. I think that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

And we're really hoping that you know industry will listen to this music and be like, oh, we want these women. Well, fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:59

Yes, we're gonna take your word for it. Because if you had like, you know, gone through this whole journey of putting your life on the line, that's how I see it. I don't know how you see it because I mean, like, from what you told me earlier, you and your friend, your colleague and your dog travel together driving all the way up to Kishmi. That is a different level of commitment, which I cannot just cannot. It's a commitment to Aragi.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:23

She is my dog. Um, I can't. So Aragi is very bougie, she's the only bougie element in my life, right? And she needs to travel in comfort. Um, and I don't like uh flying with animals because they get very conscious, uh anxious. Um all the way to Krishna. We're talking about so we then so she's been uh in trains and buses and then car. And she prefers the car, right? So uh so it's like okay, fine. So if Aragi prefers the car, there's no two ways about it. You just drive. So and um it's easier for us because we're two women um on the road, and it's easier for us to um you know commute and and feel more safe when we have our own um commute. Because in other states, at least you have some public transport, inshallah. Kashmir, you have no public transport.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

That's amazing. But you know, somebody whom I admire a lot, I think that was only Sumadiyanti. I think I'd really look up to her. She says the biggest form of service is the service to people. And the fact that you're doing it and in form of activism, it's a different kind of glam. I don't think there's any glamour to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

Unlike, you know, uh how we'd like to think no matter how much- if you saw me on an odd in an ordinary day, you definitely know it's there's no glamour to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

It's a different level of commitment and passion that you, your colleagues are all doing. This is absolutely great, and I'm in awe. I'm in awe. The very fact that like our entire team came and told us, hey, you know what, we've like recorded for one hour. It didn't feel like it. I feel like I'm learning so much from you. And that brings me to another question that I want to know that you went and recorded these songs and uh the cultural part of it, and you involve a lot of storytelling. That's what you told. Like, I have a lot of nift friends, so we were like, what carousel is gonna catch their idea, right? Like, I want to know how important do you feel and why do you feel that culture and storytelling is a very important part of uh you know, conversation about rights.

unknown 1:11:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Um, so our collective in Hindi is called Ek Potli Retki, in Tamar it's called Karni Nila. Um, why we named the collective that is essentially the answer to this, right? Um when we ask somebody uh to introduce themselves, they first say I'm so and so, this is my name, and this is where I come from. Right? Um the land that we either come from or have been dispossessed of essentially is the biggest part of our identity. All of us recognize ourselves as Tamilans, yeah, right? Nanga Tamil na solar or a pyramid. Um beyond that, when you so everything about us, the food we eat, the language we speak, the clothes we wear, uh, the rituals we follow, all of this is so closely tied to land, and these are the cultural markers that make us. So, how do we then separate culture from us? We often tend to relegate culture to either performative culture or material culture, right? Par to dance, culture, we tend to minimize it. But it's not so. For grassroots communities, everything about their life is cultural. Right? So then there are there is no concept of rights that is devoid of culture. Um, and when you want to oppress a human being, you oppress their cultural markers. You say, Don't eat the food you eat, don't speak the language you speak. Oh, the clothes you're wearing is offensive to me, don't wear it. Right? So if oppression is cultural, resistance to that oppression should also be cultural. But somehow in the modern imagination of resistance, we tend to reduce it to political, economic, and social. Right. And that would that might work for, say, you know, like even in, you know, I keep arguing with a lot of my uh left-leaning friends and communist friends, saying communism doesn't work for India because it is so devoid of cultural understanding, right? It was written for a monotheistic monocultural context, yeah. But in India, we're so diverse, so cultural. How can there be a rights movement that doesn't speak of that? Um, so I started looking into and learning from Indigenous people. So in our collective, I'm the only non-Indigenous founder, right? The rest of the founders of the collective are all Indigenous people from different communities. And it was their voice and their stories that motivated us. So I often remind myself that I'm a mere interlocutor. You know, it's not my struggle that I'm fighting against. It's, you know, when I when I speak of gender, I often speak of my struggles as well as women, what we face. Yeah. But largely in, you know, in the in the political environment, I'm still much better off. So then if I'm cognizant of that, I have to learn their culture to be able to respect that culture. Once you love something, it's hard to vanish, make it, you know, allow it to vanish. Once you love something, it's hard to like for instance. I keep telling my co you know, my the kids I was working with in Kashmiri, we have to make um you know Kashmiri food and Kashmiri clothes so lovable that they wouldn't want to let it die. Like if we love an art form, we will not a craft form, we will not let it die. We will want to see more of that, and that's the only way to allow these communities to thrive. So, how do you make them love it? You tell them the stories, right? Um, the instrument that you have on that uh bookmark, it's a 300-year-old um Kamacha, and this the story of the Kamaitcha is that um there's only one community in in all of the subcontinent that plays the Kamacha. They're called the Manganiars. And um the Manganiars essentially were when the partition happened, the part of the community that knows how to play the instrument stayed back in the side of India, and the part of the community that knows how to make and maintain the instrument was pushed away to Pakistan. So 20, 30 years after the partition, this instrument was almost gone. Okay. Because nobody knew how to make it or maintain it. Right. So then you needed activists to go and say, hey, we have to now either take them there and let them learn, or bring them here and let them learn. Yeah. But today it's become impossible for me. I can't take artists to Pakistan or bring them here. Speaking of that, puts me in trouble. Right? So if we love the Kamacha enough, today the Manganyars are globally recognized artists because, you know, um, I think uh Royston Abel did a couple of shows with them and it became a global phenomenon. So people don't want to see the Camacha dying. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:21

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:22

Yeah, right. They they you know they went and performed at the you know, uh, Royal Albert Hall and here and there in the opera house in Sydney. So people don't want to let the Camacha die. Yeah, right. So then I can push the government and say, hey, we need to not let the Camacha die. Right. Okay. We need to bring these communities together and let them thrive. Um, so yeah, I think that's why storytelling becomes important and that's where culture meets activism and meets rights.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:47

And how does it become political? When does one uh when does preserving someone's cultural rights become political?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

So, as I said, I I am of the strong belief that everything in life is political. Personal is political, the choices we make is political. To me, um, politics is not just electoral politics, that's a very small, very minute part of politics. Our everyday life is political. So these communities, their choices, for instance, um, you know, the Manganyars are also a Muslim community that is patronized traditionally by Hindu Rajputs. So these this community sings Hindu songs, uh, songs about Krishna and Rama with as much devotion as they sing Sufi. Right? So that is politics. Yeah. Right? To me, that is political. Um, but the same Rajput community, you know, to whom their music is so sacred, will not invite them into the home to give them a glass of water. So they will sit where you you leave your slipper and sit there and they'll use this ridiculous, you know, words Khamagani, which essentially means I, you know, I beg your forgiveness, which that's how they greet each other. I say, okay, this is these are all caste con you know structures. So breaking that is political. So we tell we tell Manganya children, don't say Khamagani. You say namaste.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:16

Or you say good evening, good morning. You say zindabad. Like in our collective, we only say zindabad. Because we feel Tamarilla vanakam is a very um egalitarian you know way of wishing each other. Because everybody says vanakakam. Yeah. But in most other cultures, the way you wish somebody is already an indication of where you stand socially. Right? So we say, let's not do that. Let's find a more equal, equanimous way of greeting each other. So all of this is politics. But if you ask me where it translates into, you know, electoral politics and where it they're all vote back. Right? Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

So I bring that's where I bring it back.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:58

I think suddenly like as oh, bulb and tough one, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

Black house. Yeah, yeah. As simple and as crass as that, right? Like, yeah. Have you ever faced this? I want to know this is completely, I did not write. And now that you said, like, you know, you had to tell children, don't read them like that. Like, has there ever been like a political backlash you try you got or faced because you tried to uh preserve somebody's culture?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

My life is full of those stories. I've been fighting a 10-year court battle against a man who uh against a mob that publicly beat me and molested me because we were trying to raise our voice for it. Yes. And he was a sitting BJP MLA. So I was fighting against a very powerful human being. I still continue to fight. Thankfully, he's in prison now, but not for the crimes he committed towards me, but on a different case. But I'll continue to fight, right? Um, so backlash has become part and parcel of how we operate as activists. Um however, we've all become a lot more tempered in India today. Because, for instance, if in 20, if you know between 2012 and 2016, I was so ready to court arrest. Anything happens, I'll go sit in the street and say, Arrest me. I don't care. I don't think today I will say that. Because the real fear is that once you're put in, you're never going to see the light of day. Right? I have colleagues and friends who've been in prison for five years, six years without trial. Um, you know, activists are getting picked up left, right, and center with absolutely no evidence, no charge sheet is being filed. So this is a very unsafe environment. So there is a lot of backlash, but community level backlash is also pretty constant. Tamarina, my work focuses on juvenile involvement in caste crime. Right? So I work with I work at looking at how school children engage in caste violence. And oh my god. And constantly I get threats. Right? But thankfully, I've learned from my seniors and from my mentors how to respond to a lot of these threats. Um, we build safeguards, we build community safeguards. I've had I've had instances where women have come up, come out and they'll they'll keep me in the house and they'll create a barricade and they'll say, if you want to get to Radhika, you have to cross me.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

I'm so glad that you have things like that. But people like Healer, okay, like these community women can be insane sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:32

Right? So um grandmothers who said, if you want her, you cross me. Try it. Right? So um you build community safeguards, you build um political safeguards, we make friends with you know good politicians. We were, you know, you were speaking about um, you know, Sumatyanti. I have known her since I was a young person. And um, you know, to know people in positions of power um is important. Um, we also, as activists, the more visible you are, uh, so you need to tread the line very carefully. You shouldn't become so vocal that you're found, you know, found to be a threat and then you're quashed no matter what. Nor should you be so invisible that nobody will know if you die. So you have to be sort of in between. So I think I'm striking that balance pretty all right. The last time I got arrested in Tamil Nade, I think um um VCK's uh leader uh MP Thirma Valdavan called and said, So I'm grateful for those kinds of involvement.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:40

Yeah, like it's so nice to hear this and the fact that you still keep showing and keep at it and want to impact, right? Like that is impact, right? That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:50

That's that's just you're doing some phenomenal work. I mean, if I didn't if I didn't uh you know, when you said I got beat up and molested, if that didn't choke me, the 10-year case that you're fighting. I was like, how, how does somebody even have the gritty?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:05

I don't really know. Okay, something keeps me going.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:11

Yeah, exactly. You just get so uh flustered if you someone ruffles against you in the wrong way in a public place or something like that. You your hands go chill, everything goes chill, and you're like, and you think, oh, I'm a mom of two, I'm this, I come from here, how did I let this? You know, like this I I am in awe of the work that you're doing, the very fact that you're showing up and keeping at it, and that impact is something that I think once the reward of all of this is seeing the impact of the work that we do collectively.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:45

We've seen you know, kids who've had a better life because we did this work. We've seen communities getting access even to simple things like drinking water.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:54

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:55

When when I know that a child no more has to walk six kilometers to fetch, you know, one mutke of water because we, you know, we hoisted a fight and it worked, it says something to you. It it heals your soul, you know, as much as the backlash tears it open and then there's somebody else stitching it up. So it's a sort of a constant cycle.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:18

Brings that brings me to the next one where, you know, do our generation get confused with like information and awareness with action?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:28

Absolutely. I think um I don't like the term, but I'm often using it, armchair activism has sort of become so detrimental to people like me. Yeah, um, though it's well-intentioned, many times it's well-intentioned, sometimes ill-intentioned, but you know, those of those who sit and type out these really fierce posts and talk about, they are very important, but we must make a distinction between online warriors and offline, you know, workers. Yeah. Um, you know, we all call ourselves karyakartas, we are workers, we're working for the communities. And um many times things that people say online can make our life very difficult and make us seem less impactful. Yeah, right? We can't work as fast as you can type, it's just it's just natural, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:21

And that gets reposted and that gets shared, like you know, that's not going to help, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:26

Right. So I always urge um online warriors, remember your online warriors. So I I take a little bit of grouse when they call themselves activists.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

I'm like, I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:37

Okay, then who am I?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:38

Exactly, exactly. Like, you know, facing all these difficulties. How do you just get from like, you know, just just get in touch with her, other than just like reposting, or how can you create an impact or find your community where you can create impact?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:51

I believe speaking online does create impact. Okay, I do believe that's a very important space, and people must speak, you know, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a you know, real, we must speak. I only urge that we see the difference between that and and you know, engagement. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:08

Because what does meaningful participation look like then into these things?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:12

I think, you know, I think meaningful itself is a relative term, right? Engaging with a conversation, for instance, if I can urge the two of you to speak about caste on your podcast without having to hold back and say, I'm I'm not sure, right? Um, because everybody is unsure of caste when they have to speak about it. Right. But if I can create that, you know, if I because today we addressed it. I spoke about the mangnyas. I'm speaking. This to me is meaningful engagement. Yeah. Right? And you didn't feel like, oh no, I have to, you know, Radhika, let's cut this, let's not talk about it. So to be able to ease ourselves into difficult conversations is meaningful participation. But I think uh India is in a space where, especially Tamil Nadu, is in a space where we have to show more grit in the way we participate in real life as well. Um, especially with the choices that we've made now. Um, we've we've said we want change and we've moved towards something new. Meaningful participation in today's parlance would mean you are constantly engaging with that new system and demanding the best out of them to hold them accountable.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:24

So all the young people who pushed for TVK, I want them to every day watch TV. Right? I want you to see how you want to do it. Are they sticking to their word? Are they doing what are they doing something detrimental to us? Can we hold them accountable? Are they responsible towards us? Are they responsive towards us? I think that's meaningful participation. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:45

I'm so sorry to smile there because I have such a big TVK fan sitting here. We can edit this out. No, no, no. Like, you know, I mean I just looked at her. I'm like, you know, are you watching it? Are you saying that's great?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:57

I think it is their absolute right to be. Who's ever see now Solomon more than TVK fan in the soul room? Yeah, TVK cadder, no TVK follower, no solemn arting room.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

Yeah. Jenny Tangan.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:10

Sorry, sorry, Jenny.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

Right? But yeah. What is Okay, jumping back, jumping back. I just looked at her. I just looked at she knew I was gonna be making eye contact with her, but yeah. What's the one thing our generation doesn't want to admit to itself? Or the younger generation you're working with?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:28

Okay, the generation, our generation that doesn't want to admit is hit me with both. Okay, so the first thing is we don't want to admit that we've failed. Right? And the and the mess that is that is today is because we failed. I think we need to acknowledge that and face the reality. Um, the generation next that is um, you know, what was the question?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:48

That it doesn't want to, that's that's they actually have doesn't want to admit about itself.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:54

Oh, that they are absolute know-it-alls, but they don't really know anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:59

They behave like they are know-it-alls. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is the most dangerous position. Yeah, yeah. Jack of all, king of none. I need these kids to sit down and say, okay, just because I can eloquently wax off about you know politics doesn't mean I know politics. Politics, yeah. Just because I can talk about economy and this, you have to at some point humility, maybe. I think that's what is lacking from them. For us, it's realization that we failed. For them, it's just lack of humility. I need, I would like these kids to say, okay, there are things that we may not know.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Yeah, yeah. That's something that I've faced on so many occasions, and I'm just like, I'm not even going to respond because this feels like I'm gonna be pulled down to that level and beat with that same thing. So I know exactly where you're coming from. And why are difficult conversations becoming very harder to have given the social political scene?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:00

Okay, so our social tolerance has reduced. Okay, this is I attribute this to the growing right-wing environment in the world, it's not just India. Like everywhere you see far right extremism, um, just so in that sense, um, we are so polarized, right? Even family dinners have been become difficult. Yes, yeah, right? You can't sit with your own family and have a dinner where you're not biting each other off, right? Your appetizer and entree together, right? So um, I think patience, um, Urdu has a very beautiful word, sabhart, right? It's not just patience, it's knowing patience, right? You sit with it and you say, okay, I'm going to make space for the other person.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:50

They may have a different opinion, they may have a different idea of life, but I want to hold space for them. It's very ironic because we are a generation that speaks so much about mental health. We are so aware about mental health. And yet somehow holding space is so underrated. We only hold space when it's convenient. Convenient, yeah. We'll hold space for mental health, we'll hold space for gender conversations. Sometimes we will not hold space for very, very intensely political things, right? I don't want to talk about it, is the position. Or, you know, even I have so many friends and cousins with whom I completely avoid speaking about politics because it's so touchy. But I think to learn to make space and hold space, I think would be the most important thing. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:38

Yeah. What's one small thing uh you think someone listening to this can do today? Yeah. To be uh less passive.

unknown 1:31:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:46

Less passive.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:47

And I want you to answer this question and drive this episode home, looking into that camera, because this is our audience, anybody listening to, they should have a takeaway.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:56

And yeah, okay, so I think the most important thing we need to do today to be less passive in our life. There's nothing wrong in being passive, but to be less passive in our life is to know our own position, social position within society, what caste, class, gender, locations we come from, and then address that privilege with people who are immediately around us. I'm not asking for very big things. We can't make big changes. All of us don't have to be activists. But if we can treat people in our homes, in our lives a little better because we've understood where they stand and where we stand. I think that's the one thing we should take home.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:34

Okay, great. Thank you so much. But before we wrap up, one last question. What is one thing that you are hopeful about that probably most of the others have given up on?

SPEAKER_03 1:32:43

Uh, two things I'm hopeful about. One is for Tamar Nara, I don't think our Dravidian legacy has died. Um, I believe that this is a break and we want we will definitely resurrect because we've done so well. Um, there are so many things we need to correct, but this is the time to course, correct. And the second thing I'm I'm really hopeful about is that history is always in a cycle. So globally, also, I am hopeful that times will change and more progressive thinking will prevail. Um, and communities that are today subjugated and oppressed will have their say in time.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:18

That's amazing. That's how this has been by far the one of the most enriching episodes. I've sat down with a guest and had to pick the I I don't even know how time went by, and I know we're on a time constraint, and it's going to be so difficult. If I could, like, I just have like a list of questions that I would ask you, but you are the modern superhero. I believe you know what I mean. There's been a lot of learning here on this country.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:43

It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to the two of you because um I often yearn for conversations where we're not restricted by what we can say and what's okay and what's not. Thank you for holding space for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:57

And thank you for talking about everything so fast. It's like I don't know it how they say it, right? I believe in that. I believe in like be the change you want to see in today's world. And I like to think I'm like, I make it a much kinder place, much empathetic place. I try to raise two boys who understand other people's empathy and you know, insecurities. I always keep saying that. But this that's how you're less passive, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:22

You're racing two conscious boys, such an important thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:25

Yeah, but the fact that this literal be the change you want to see, like yeah, that is something else to me. I I I I think there are humans, there are superhumans, and then there are activists and you, right? You that that's what I think, and whatever we shared off camera, which you spoke to us. I I don't think like I my sign is still feeling a little chilly from some of the things that you just shared with us. Like, you know, that's amazing. Hopefully, we'd still have some more conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:56

I'm so glad that people like you exist, like you and your team. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. You've been amazing. I'm just so grateful for, so thankful for, and most of us can only dream about. So I'm so glad you exist.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:08

I'm very glad now I have the two of you to call friends. Yes, thank you, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:13

It's a two-way street. Yes, it is a two-way street. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, anytime you in whatever scope that we can be of help to you, we are gonna get to you. And that wherever I feel like you need to educate the next generation, I'm gonna get in touch with you and be like, absolutely. There are these bunch of kids, you know. Like, I feel like you should work with them and like you know, enlighten them, and there's some scope for like, you know, education and impact. Come on over, like, you know, I'm gonna do that. And it has been an amazing few hours of that we've absolutely enjoyed. Enjoyed. I didn't even know it has been a few hours, honestly. It just feels like minutes. And thank you so much for being on our show with us, Radhika Ganesh. And this was Two Piece in a Pod with Radhika Ganesh. And uh, if you like this episode, comment if you have questions, comment you want to know how to get to the grassroots level, you can follow her on her page. Obviously, we'll be collaborating with us, so you will know where her good work lies. And if there are creative people out there who can bring her beautiful album to life, please get in touch with us. That'll be one of the most amazing things to contribute to our community. Thank you so much for being here with us. Thank you so much. Yeah, in another amazing episode of Two Piece in a Pod, one of our really dear friends again, Kritika Gokur from Matramai, were came forth like to dress us and we jumped right in on it. I'm so grateful to be surrounded by women who make amazing, breathable, comfortable. Comfortable clothes, super amazing as well. Yeah, I just wanted to wear this again. Yeah, and it's super affordable and super comfortable. And the brand name is Matramai. You should get on that website and check them out.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:49

Follow them on Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:51

Thank you so much, Kritika, for offering to dress us up. I love what I'm olive. Align, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. And show Matramai some love because I sure as I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:06

Me too. Thank you so much for doing this, please.