Family Roles

Join us this week as we discuss family roles, traditional and other. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome back to Deep Thoughts with Holly and Haley. This week's episode focuses on carrying the mental load.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

A disclaimer for you: while we do have a background in mental health care, we are not your licensed mental health providers. If you're in need of professional mental health care, please reach out to a local office near you. If you are in crisis, please dial 911 or 988 for immediate assistance.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Not just doing the tasks but remembering them. I'm constantly thinking about when the dishes need to be done, the laundry needs to be washed, the floors need to be cleaned, when the kids need new clothes, or running low on diapers or wipes, or what the baby's next milestone item is, or what we need to get for that milestone, like say a high chair. How can I explain this mental load to my spouse in a way that helps him really understand it and hopefully start noticing and sharing that responsibility without me always having to ask. Welcome back.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah. Oh hey, Jenna. Welcome back, Jenna. Jenna, I love it. She's a fan.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, sorry, I'm like situating myself on this couch. I've been, I literally have rolled all over this couch since I've been here.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Listen, that's okay. This is what it's for. We're breaking it in. It isn't comfortable. It's a new couch. It is comfortable. You just kind of have to like break it in a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, you just kind of gotta waller around on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Find your spot, you know. I've not found it yes. My son. There it is. That's the spot. Oh god. Do that at your home, please. On my couch. Oh. I mean, not ew, but you know what I mean. Well, you know, uh, so this is a new couch and it's kind of like a nice light fabric. Um it's really pretty. And my son, I'm like, You will not eat or drink anything on this couch. So I'm constantly getting after him above the couch. Um, but and here I am, hypocritical because I'm sitting here drinking my coffee on the couch. But I'm the grown-up and I pay for this couch, so it's true. He's also not here. So um, anywho, that's a great question. Yeah. Um, I think as women, we always take on the mental load because we're always thinking about well, we need this, well, we gotta do this, will be, you know, like I think men think in the moment, like right here and right now, what's in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Women think in the future, and we think kind of in those details, like this question reminded me of a TED talk I recently listened to. So I'm teaching a class this semester um on social welfare policy. But me too. One of the things that we talk a lot about, um, we're actually reading the book How to Be an Anti-Racist by um Ibram Kendi. Yeah, um, which is so good. If you haven't read it, would highly recommend. Um, but we're reading that together as a class, and we this past week actually talked about unconscious bias and listened to watch this TED talk um about how to outsmart your own unconscious bias is what it's called. And one of the things that the presenter talked about was how as a woman, you know, she worked in the in the tech world and um was a lawyer, and in her office of of all these other lawyers, um, her assistant came to her one day and asked her if she wanted to learn how to enter her own timesheets, which was not her job. Her assistant was a woman, um, and said, Hey, do you want to learn how to do this? And she's like, No. I'm a lawyer. That's not my job. Question mark. Um, so she asked, you know, everybody else in the office, all the other women had been asked if they wanted to learn how to do it. None of the men had. And when she was talking to the women about, like, well, did you learn how to do it? And they were like, Yeah, you know, and she's like, Well, why? Why would you give up something as precious as your time to do somebody else's job? The two answers she got was one was oh, it's just not that hard, and the other was, well, it's just easier if I do it. And I think that like that really struck me because I find myself doing that a lot, where I take on a task that is maybe somebody else's, or you know, somebody else should be doing, and I'm like, well, I can just do it because it's not that hard, um, or because it'll just be easier if I do it. And I find that true even in my own house. Like, you know, and not that like and I have a really amazing partner who is really willing to do anything that I ask him to do. Um, but there is a part of me sometimes when I'm doing something that I'm like, you know, oh I could ask for help with this or him to do it. I'm like, but it's just gonna be easier if I just do it. Or like I know how like I want it done, like I'll just do it. It's easier in the long run if I just do it.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Which is like it's gonna take me more time to teach him how to do it the way the way I want it done. That's and see, that's the kicker is a lot of it comes from we want it done the way we want it done. And if we send them out to go get diapers, well, it's highly likely that he's gonna buy loves, and we all know the baby breaks out with loves, like we need pampers, and he's going to fail and make that mistake, and we don't have time for that because the baby needs diapers. You know what I mean? So it's like it's just easier if I do it, and uh, but then we get mad at them because they didn't do it right, they didn't do it like they were supposed to do it, so just well forget it. Then I'm not gonna ask you again. So we don't even give them the opportunity. Like, you know, maybe we could just say, hey dude, uh, you know, these are actually the wrong diapers. Could you go back out and you know, get the right person?

SPEAKER_02 6:33

Well, and it's one of those, you know, also in that talk too, she talked about, you know, examining behavior. And, you know, I think that's where it's important for men to your, you know, or whoever we're talking about the situation, not necessarily just men. Um, but it's important for him to examine his behavior. Like, why doesn't why do these things not come naturally to him? What is it that, you know, has either happened or how he was raised or taught? Like, what is the behavior behind why he's not doing this? Which is a fun way to look at it.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

It really is. Um it it's interesting to think about um in his own growing up, was it his mom who kind of took care of everything? So so the thought is the mom takes care of everything because that's how he was raised, and he really doesn't know any different. And I'm not trying to make excuses for him in any capacity, right? But also, you know, there is some validity to that of this is what he saw and this was normal to him. So he just assumes like you've taken on this role. Um and also, you know, in our relationships really early on, whether we're aware of it or not, we sort of set up the dynamics. Yeah. And it happens really early on in our relationship. So if you are the spouse that's like, I don't need to ask him for help, I can do this on my own, what you're saying to him is, hey, I've got this. Now, not saying that asking for help is a weakness in any way, but but you know, if you're showing like, hey, I got this, he's gonna start thinking, like, oh hey, she got she's got this. I'm not gonna ask her if she needs help because clearly she's got this, no problem.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Or they've been conditioned that every time they do try to help or do something, they've been told it's wrong. Exactly. And it turns into an argument. So then it's like, well, I'm just not gonna do it because I'm fussed at every time I try to do it. And then you also have the thing of weaponized incompetence where they just refuse to learn how to do whatever the task is and are just like, well, I just I just won't do it right, so I just I'm not gonna do it. You can just do it. Um so I think being like some things we can let go, you know? Absolutely. Like if I ask Marquez, who's my partner, to wash the dishes, we probably have very different ways of washing the dishes. Yes. And if I were to stand beside him and be like, why are you doing it that way? That's not like the end as long as the end result is the same, it doesn't really matter how we get there. Exactly. Dishes are clean, floor is swept and mopped. I don't really care how we got there. Um now if it's like something that the end result does matter, like the diaper brand or you know, the white brand or whatever, like then yeah, let's have that conversation. Um, but also if this is something that you've just handled the whole time it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

It's hard to just say, okay, now you go do it. Yeah. Because you're you're kind of setting him up for failure. Yeah. Um, so having that conversation about it's gonna be really important. And I think it's fair to even if you need a visual, and I'm gonna tell you, men are very visual. So maybe even creating some kind of like almost chore chart for the family, the household, where it's like, okay, we're gonna divvy out chores so that it all doesn't feel like it falls on you. Yeah. So if it's like, okay, you know, John is going to be doing X, Y, and Z, and I'm gonna be doing this, this, this, this, and our kids are gonna be doing this, that, or the other. Everybody in the household is responsible because we all take up space in the house. We all are part of our household. So we all should be doing something and contributing in some way. And I think that the thing so I grew up in a household with a dad who very much thought, because he worked outside the home, that he wasn't responsible for anything inside the home. So he wasn't responsible to cook, clean, take care of the kids. Like, he didn't do any of that. Like, he didn't put us to bed, he didn't give baths, he didn't, you know, take care of us in any capacity because that was quote unquote my mom's job, right? And so how do we kind of change that ideology? Well, I think that is us saying as women, like, hey, I'm not doing this on my own. Um, I need help. What does that look like? What can you do to help pigeon? Yeah, that communication piece that we talk about so much.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Absolutely. Um, and you know, I was raised in a very opposite household um because of the nature of work that my parents did. They're um both paramedics and worked opposite 24-hour shifts um that and so they were only off home together like two days a week. So we had a very um like de gender-normed house. Like, you know, it was whatever parent was home to care of you, did the things. Yeah. Um, there were some things that were kind of split, like for a long time my dad handled most of the like, you know, big financial decisions. I mean, obviously like with my mom's input. Um, but even that's like kind of changed over the past few years. Um just with like just for different dynamics that you know happen as people age. Um, but growing up, it was like I saw my dad cook, I saw my dad clean, I saw my dad vacuum, I saw my dad do the dishes, I saw him do the laundry. Um, and then the same thing when my mom was home, I saw her do all of those things. And it just became like that was very normal in my mind that both parents do these things because that's how I was raised. And I got really lucky that I have a partner who was um raised by a single mom for a while and a teenage mom, and you know, witnessed the hard work that she did in the home. Um, but and you know, and he had to step up a lot too, and then had, you know, other folks in the home that you know did things, and so we both kind of know that value of work, and that was not ever really a contentious point in our relationship, but we had that conversation very early.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Um and I'm just I'm just very lucky to I think that I type of person it spurs in me a lot of resentment and anger, and having seen how I grew up and how my dad took no responsibility for us as children, uh, for our raising um and for any household need. Like he was just not, it was like, well, I went out and I did my job and that's enough. And I think that made me very resentful. And I think also like just the men in my my dad's side of the family are like that. Like, I mean, you know, the women will be moving heavy furniture and the men will just sit there and watch you. Will not help you, right? Will not offer to help you, will just watch you struggle. Um, or even will turn up the television louder because you're disturbing them. Disturbing them, God forbid they'd have to get up. Um, and so it was interesting because something like triggered in me years ago, I was getting stuff out of the back of my car. And as per usual, my dad and his brother, and you know, they knew I was getting all this stuff out of the car. They walk past me, don't offer to help me at all. And my mother's brother, this was like the holidays, he comes up and he was like, Do you need some help? And I said, Oh no, no, no, no, I I got it. It's it's all right. Um, because I'm so used to men don't help you. Right. And my uncle said, No, let me help you carry this. And I was like, Really? And I had this like epiphany, yeah, men can help you. And and again, this is my my mother's brother. Yeah. And he was like, Let me carry that for you. That is heavy, like, let me help you. Yeah, and I think me being willing to let my guard down, yeah, because I had in my head, men don't help you, men just sit there and watch you, and I was resentful.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Like seen as a weakness to want help.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

And so I let my guard down and I let him help me. And I'm gonna be honest with you, it felt good. Yeah, it felt good that he cared enough about me to be willing to help me. And I think in that moment, being able to let my guard down and all that crap that I felt before, being able to just like let this happen was helpful. Yeah. Um, and I think whether you know it sometimes or not, we do have that guard up because either our own trauma, either he's not gonna do it right, or I don't need help, I'm a strong, independent woman, and you still can be.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

But it's okay to let somebody take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Yeah, and I will say with you know, with Mark West too, like we've he's been through like in relationships before and like through some of these things where he has been like really criticized about the way that he's done things to help. And when we first got together, that was like a big conversation we had because he would just like we'd be out with my family or whatever, and like my mom would be my grandmother, my 80-year-old grandmother would be like doing something, and he would just sit there, and I'm like, You want to offer to help? Yeah, but I'm like very confrontational about that kind of stuff too, and thankfully he's very receptive to my confrontationalness. Because I'm like, hey, when you see the 80-year-old lady like picking up that bin, like, hey, maybe go help her. And he's like okay, he's like, you just need to tell me that's the thing that drives me crazy. Like, you just you have to tell me to do it and I'll do it. Like, doesn't always take that initiative to just do it. Now he does with other things, like doing the dishes. Interesting. Um, cleaning the cat boxes, he just kind of took that over. I hate cleaning a litter box. Yeah. It's my least favorite thing. I love my cats, hate their poop. Um so he but he's just like taken that on and does it without me even asking. That's great. The dishes, the like he's swept them off the floors, like that kind of like household stuff. Yeah. But if I'm like pulling Christmas decorations down or doing something like that, he will immediately help me. If I ask him, if I'm like, hey, can you help me do this? He'll do it. But if he just sees me doing something, he won't offer to help. Wow. And that drives me insane. Yeah. Um, but we've had this like this like an ongoing conversation that we have.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

But you're talking about it, which is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah, we talk about it, and like it's one of those things that he I know he's actively working on. Yeah. Um, because I see the progress where it's like But it takes time for them sometimes for anybody to like change that way of thinking.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Well, and even like, you know, I have all the burden because my child's father works at a state, so he's just not, you know, in our daily lives. And to be honest, like I take on all the responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

And it is hard because I work, I take care of my son, I have to remember all the things. And I will say the thing that always gets me society-wise, is if a man, you know, takes care of their child, everybody's fawning over it. Like, oh my gosh, he's taking care of his son. He's such a good dad. He's such a good dad. And if you're a woman doing all the things, it's like, you should be. You're the mother. That's what's expected. That's what the woman should be doing. And I think that I want to really just break that. Yeah. Like, I want to say no, because that goes back to how I was raised of my dad feeling like he shouldn't do shit. Um, and I hate that. Like, no, you should be involved. If you are bringing children into this world, you should be involved in their raising. Yeah. If you are committed to a family, you're going to take your part in it, whatever that looks like. And for those mommies out there who are stay-at-home moms, you have like all my praise. Because as hard as it is, honestly, to do both jobs of working outside the home and taking care of the home, I can't imagine. Because you're on call non-stop. Like your job doesn't end. Yeah. You know, like, you know, when when five o'clock comes around, you can, you know, hang up your hat and and go home. But you know, stay-at-home moms, like it is non-stop. So, you know, you have my utmost respect of that job. But also a stay-at-home parent in general, because there are dads who are doing this too. Oh, yeah. And I do want to give them credit. But I think that so much is expected of us as women, and I don't think it's totally fair, and I think that we don't get the credit that we should be getting. So I think that if we felt more validated and we had partners who were willing to help us and pitch in, I think that it would just totally change our families, the trajectory of our families, our lives, how we view it in society.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

All the things.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

All the things. Don't even get me started. But honestly, Jenna, um I think just being vocal with him about like, hey, listen, I need you to help. And I think the more kind of like the more he like, you know, repeats that and he's actively involved, like, it'll come to a point where he won't you won't have to prompt him anymore as much. He'll start hopefully taking on some of these things, fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Um, but also men need a lot of cues. They need a lot of help. And you gotta tell them you can't assume they know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

And Devil's Advocate, you know, they may have been raised in a household similar to that. You know, similar to they never witness their dad doing those things or any man of the house ever doing any of those things. Um, so that to may just be a learned behavior. Yeah. And that's where examining behavior is super important.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

And and reflecting on where you came from. Yeah. Really reflect on how you grew up. Do you agree with it? Do you agree with how you grew up? Did it feel comfortable? Did it work? Was it something that you want to put into your family life? Um, and sometimes it's not necessarily that you're like agree or disagree with it. Sometimes it starts to come out because it's it's those patterns of behavior. It feels comfortable. It's what we sort of know, and we don't even really recognize it. Yeah. So sort of breaking the cycle a little bit if you feel like I want to reject how I grew up. Um, you know, just sort of be aware of those things.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah, absolutely. It's a lot. Um it is. And I think, you know, it's okay to be frustrated and expect that they will help with these things because they should. They should. And I think, but going into that conversation combatively is never gonna work. Like, no matter how frustrated we are about it. Like, absolutely, are there times that I want to yell at my partner for like you know, not doing something the way I would want it done, or like hey, you clearly noticed this pile of laundry and like just left it sitting in the bathroom. Like, what are you doing? Um, but sure, is that beneficial or helpful? No. So it's um and you know, that conversation too, is you know, if we have folks that are just getting into new relationships, like start these conversations early. Early. Like we've talked about, you know, I'm constantly talking with my partner about like, you know, we've decided we want to have kids. Like, you know, what are my expectations for you? Like what how do you see your role in raising these kids? Like, do you have it ingrained in you that like you're not changing diapers or doing whatever? Because if you do, that's a problem. We won't have to talk about it. Um, thankfully it's not for for my partner, but um, that is a conversation we've had of like if he can clean cat shit, he's yeah, he's he can do a baby diaper, he'll be fine. Um, but yeah, it's just like those types of conversations that should happen early in a relationship. It doesn't mean that they can't happen now that you're established in a relationship, it's just they look a little bit different. Yep. And it kind of can help combat some of these later issues if you start those conversations early, early, early.

unknown 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Even sometimes it feels like it's too early.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

It's never too early. It's it's never too early, it's never too late. Never too late. Um we can always have these conversations and just be vocal. What do you need? And also make sure we're managing our expectations of if you put it out there, he may be like, I I just I can't. I can't change the baby diaper. Like that truly makes me want to gag. Like that is something, you know what I mean? So, like, don't expect okay, all right. You can't do the poopy diapers. Can you do the pea diapers? Yes, I can do the pea diapers. Okay, so you're on for the pea diapers, you know, whatever. Like, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing. We can meet people where they are, yeah, and that's okay too. Um, but you know, we have to at least give a little.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Like, hey, I'm up all night if you're breastfeeding, like I'm up all night feeding this tiny human and doing all these things. Um in the morning. You're gonna take them. You gotta do we gotta figure this out. Like, we gotta have the schedule. Or like, hey, if I'm doing this all night, I need you on washing and cleaning bottles. Yep. Like, that needs to be your job. Yeah. Um, or like, hey, if I'm getting up to do all the night feeds, I'm gonna need you to get up to do the diaper situation, or take care of the other kids, or yeah, be on that.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Whatever that looks like.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Like, it's just all about that communication and breaking down those responsibilities.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

And I will tell you, um, if you are, and I don't know how old your your little one is, you talked about diapers, um, but I will tell you from experience, having a small child, a small baby in diapers, you're not sleeping, you're feeding all the different times of night, um, it's exhausting. And we aren't always in our best frame of mind when we're exhausted. Yeah. So, you know, maybe encouraging your partner, hey, I I I really need you to take the baby um for just like allowing me maybe to sleep in, allowing that time, because if you're rested, your responses are gonna be a lot better. Yeah. So allowing your body, your mind to rest, um, I think is gonna be also very helpful. Yeah, absolutely. So boy, and making uh relationships and babies and all that just sound delightful.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

Woo! Can't wait.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Anyway, well, thank you so much, Jenna. I appreciate you checking back in with us and um I hope this helps. I hope so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Haley, um, how can they get a hold of us? Yeah, so you can send us a voice memo or you can send us just like a typed out question and we'll read it um or have somebody else. Maybe in different accents, you never know. Oh, the Irish I guess.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

The Irish one is back. Oh god. Can't help it, Haley. Rebecca. Rebecca's back. Rebecca from the cult. Yikes. It's time for you to go to bed with Phil. No, no, Phil. Remember that was the episode when we were sister wives. Oh, yeah. How exciting.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

Love that. Um, okay, so you guys save me, please, um, by emailing us at Holly. No, Deep Thoughts with H H at gmail.com. I don't know what we're doing here. Um, you can find us on our Facebook at Deep Thoughts with Holly and Haley and our Instagram Deep Thoughts with H H.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

And don't you love it? It's such a good time. You can come back here and listen to my lucky charm accent. I'm terrified of Rebecca. It is so exciting. Perhaps we can all sit together in a round circle and read the Bible, and we could all breed each other's head.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Please God, that sounds like my nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

You're ovulating, it's your night with Phil. Actually, I think I am ovulating right now. See? It's your night with Phil. Thank you. Perimenopausal. Everything's a hard pass and perimenopause.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

Well said, I'm on the birth control, we're we're good. There's no pregnancies here.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

If your child turns out white, it's Phil's.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

The joke there is my fiance's black.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

And for me, if my child turns out white, it's Phil's. Because my child is half Hispanic.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Yeah.

unknown 29:10

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah, that would be so yeah, if we either one of us have white children. It's like, oh no, totally white children we haven't.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

We have there's some questions.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Yeah, we got so look at us with our multicultural households.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

We are for us. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Yeah, beautiful. I know. My child is gorgeous. Oh yes, he is. I just you know the skin. Oh gosh. He's green eyes, like gosh, he's a good looking kid. Yeah, he's gorgeous. Um, I'm super biased as his mother, but he is a good looking kid. Totally agree. You will have good looking kids too. Yeah. I know it. I hope so. Well, sorry about that, weird little Irish segue. Uh, but uh we look forward to talking to you next time. Bye. Bye. Deep Thoughts is a production by Holly and Haley. Social media brought to you by Holly, podcast editing by Haley, visual design by Marquez. For sponsorship opportunities, please reach out to us via email, Deep Thoughts with H at gmail.com.