Deep Thoughts with Holly and Hailey
Each week we dive into new topics suggested by you, our listeners! Our goal is to share our deep thoughts on issues that you are facing. It's like talking and venting to your girlfriends over coffee and getting a different perspective.
Deep Thoughts with Holly and Hailey
Saving Men
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Join us this week as we talk about some women's need to "save" men. When does it turn from supporting to saving?
Welcome to Deep Thoughts with Holly and Haley. This week we'll be talking about why women feel the need to rescue men.
SPEAKER_02Quick disclaimer, while we do have a background in mental health care, we are not your licensed mental health providers. If you're in need of professional mental health care, please reach out to a local office near you. If you're in crisis, please dial 911 or 988 for immediate assistance.
SPEAKER_00She says, Hi Holly and Haley, my name is Cassie, and I am from Newport News, Virginia. I was curious why do women always feel like they have to save men? Meaning, why do they meet people who are in difficult places and feel like it's up to them to save them? Should they just run away? Thanks. Love the podcast.
SPEAKER_02I think this can be a really short answer in a really short section.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah. You know, I I see this, I've seen this a lot in practice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think it is more common in for women to do this to men. I will say that I've seen it the other way around too. Um so I want to acknowledge that before we get into it. Not just right, but I feel like I do see it more with women.
SPEAKER_00I think that women, you know, we have that mothering, we want to mother, we want to help. And especially if you're a helper. Yeah. And and not just an Enneagram too, that you're a helper, but but you want to help. You want to r rescue somebody. And I have a good friend. She r and will admit this, um, that part of the reason that she married the person she married was because she thought she could help him. She thought she could make his life better, she thought she could rescue him. Um she could fix him. And they are divorced. She could not fix him. He's he just sucks. Uh but just a bad person. She's just a sucky person. Um, so that's the thing is, you know, we think, oh, a challenge. We can help you. I can fi all you need is me. Yeah. And I can fix you. Yeah. Honey. If he's broken, you ain't gonna fix him. Yeah. Um, and that's not your cross to bear. Yeah. So, and you know how we say if we're not in a good place, we can't be in a relationship. Like, we have to be good with us. Yeah, we have to be in a good space. Yeah. That's the same with them too. Like, they're not, they can't give you what you need. You shouldn't be the only one giving.
SPEAKER_02And is that what you want? Like, if you really think about it, when you think about what is an ideal relationship, is it, you know, we are both putting into this relationship, we're both able to get, you know, what we need out of it. It's supportive, it's you know, 50-50, we're, you know, we're doing this thing together. Or is it I want to spend the entire time taking care of somebody else?
SPEAKER_00And then if you end up having children, not only do you have the children to take care of, but you have to take care of him too, because now you're the mommy of all these people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that is going to bring a lot of tension in your relationship because you're looking at them to step up and they're not. Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think it's it's really common in people who are in the helping profession too, because we are like, I do this for work every day, I can fix this. Like, I know I can deal with this.
SPEAKER_00Or maybe you grew up in a situation where you had wished you could fix your parents or you know, whomever, like something that, and so you feel this need of that's alright, it's my calling. I'm gonna fix you. I couldn't fix that, but I'm gonna fix you. And and you know, it just we all have to be in a better space to be able to show up for each other. Show up for yourself, but also show up for each other.
SPEAKER_02And I think there's a difference between like you've been in a long-term relationship with somebody and thing and they start to struggle. That's different. That's different than I have known this person for a month, they are struggling, but I am attracted to them for some for whatever that reason is, and I'm gonna look past all of these issues because when they're good, they're really good. And I can I can work on the other stuff, like I can handle that stuff, and then you get into this relationship, and that stuff is a lot harder to handle than you originally thought.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, there are gonna be people in your lives who uh in your life who are gonna say, um Haley? Uh what are you doing? Like, dude, you can't save him, or he's too far gone, or like, what are you doing? He's a raging alcoholic. Right. And if you're over here saying, Oh yeah, but oh, when he's not drinking, he's so great. And during the week, he's great because he only binge drinks on the weekends and you know, gets into mischief. But during the week, he's so great. There are going to be those people in your life who are trying to help you who's gonna say, like, oh, maybe this is not great. So maybe also listening to some of the people in your life, even if you don't want to hear it, because they're probably telling you the truth.
SPEAKER_02Well, and I think there's a way that you can be supportive to that person without being in a relationship with them. Exactly. Like you can be their friend with boundaries, with boundaries, you don't have to be in a relationship with them. If you truly feel like this is the person for you and they're wanting to like take a next step or something like that, I think you owe it to yourself to have that conversation with them and say, listen, I would love to, like, I love so many things about you. I'm attracted to so many things about you, but this binge drinking every weekend, or you know, the use of substances, or your whatever it is, the your severe unmedicated mental health condition, um might be something you need to look at before I'm willing to like I need to see that you are willing to put in the work for this issue before I would agree to date you or take this relationship any further. I think, and I think if they are the person for you and they want to make that change, they will. And if they're not ready for that, and if they can't do that, I think that's the time when you evaluate like, is this a deal breaker for me?
SPEAKER_00I think women are so scared. I I shouldn't say women, I think individuals are so scared of um the rejection piece of it. Like, if he can't get fixed, it's my fault, or he's rejecting me. So now I'm gonna have to, you know, I I'm gonna have to call him a bluff. I'm gonna have to show my cards now. He's not getting fixed, I have to walk away. And so many people don't do that. So many people are like, well, I mean, so well, maybe I can put up you stopped drinking last weekend, and yeah, you had a relapse this week, but last weekend was really good. So I'm just gonna hang in there because it it looks like it might be getting bad, you know, like versus saying, I put in a firm boundary, you're not doing the work that you need to do. I'm gonna exit stage left. As opposed to doing that, we feel like, well, one more chance. I mean, you know, so people tend to do that because we want a lot of it has to do with our own self-esteem. Because we're like, oh, I don't want I don't want to look like you know, I don't have a relationship.
SPEAKER_02Like, I don't want other people to judge me or for them be right that I said no to this relationship or I got out of this relationship because they're having this problem.
SPEAKER_00Because I left you at your worst. What kind of person am I?
SPEAKER_02Right. Like I can't be with you while you're going through something really hard.
SPEAKER_00Or I left and I just proved all those people right who said that there were these red flags. Yeah. And I didn't want to prove them right, so I stuck with you anyway. Yeah. I see that a lot too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that's a that's a big one too.
SPEAKER_00And I think get rid of your pride, babies.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mostly see I mean it's that's not discriminatory in age. Like, I mean, this I see this in you know, people who are 18 and people who are 80. 80. Yeah, it's I mean, it could happen at any point in your life where you meet somebody who is not in a good space.
SPEAKER_00Um it is interesting because for me, um anytime somebody is and I don't know why necessarily it's a depression kind of thing, but for me, I think uh having a therapist background, anytime I'm around somebody, and not to say, like we talked about, who like, yeah, you're normally fine, you're in a bad state, you take meds, whatever, things get better, okay. You know, back. But I'm saying, like, meeting somebody who is like clinically depressed and they sort of want to use me for my therapy skills. I'm like, oh hell no. Or they're not interested in getting better. Exactly. If for me, I'm like, oh no, red flag, run away, run away, run away, and I do. I run as far away as possible because for me that's a boundary. Yeah, like I need people for my life who are gonna be uplifting, who are gonna and and we're not happy all the time, absolutely, but people who are going to bring me joy to be around because if you're not going to feel uplifting to me, I don't want you in my life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, Haley, you can leave.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm just kidding. I'm heading out. Oh, I hit the door.
SPEAKER_00No, she brings me a great amount of joy.
SPEAKER_02Um, no, I mean, and I will say, with like, you know, as you know, my fiance and I both struggle with anxiety and can both have like off days. And we've had this conversation before, like my fiance is such a big personality. Like, when he's in a good mood, like everyone's in a good mood. Like, it's hard to not be. So the same is true when he's in a bad mood. And I tell him sometimes, I'm like, you know, like when you're mopey or in a bad mood like that, you suck the energy completely out of me, and I can't be around that right now. Um but we're able to have that conversation, and like I'm the same way. Yeah. Where I'm like, if I'm in a bad mood, you probably don't want to be around me.
SPEAKER_00But here's something that we both recognize positive. Here's something that might be positive. While he lights up the room with his joy, you don't have to worry about you know getting murdered because true, it'll be him.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, unfortunately. Because he lights up the room. He's gonna have to go. Yeah. Because he lights up the room. Yeah, maybe they'll catch him on a day when he's really down or something. Maybe so, and then they'll be like, not that one.
SPEAKER_00They're like, actually not that one moving on. Yeah. That's a bummer. Yeah. Um, you know, but but that's you know, Haley uh is is very sarcastic and funny and and lights up the room in a very subtle way. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Like a flickering candle, like a flickering flame, these are the days of our lives. Yes, and that's how Haley feels. She's just randomly like, oh, look at her flicker. Oh, she's so delightful. I have to have her around. And then the flicker goes out. And then the flicker, well, you know, that's a generalized anxiety document. It's you know, that's what it is. It's like the house is gonna catch on fire. Oh, it's alright. It'll be fine. It's okay. Um, yeah. I can't say I light up a room either, that ain't true. I think you do. Um no. If it's not your fiance, it's gonna be me.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh. Yeah. No, I just yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I think that of myself, probably. I think that um you can't maintain the energy of being the happy, bubbly person all the time. Yeah. And I think also we're human and we have days that are hard, and we have times that we just get frustrated and scared and all those things. And I just think it's normal. I think, you know, we just can't be the cheerleader for everybody all the time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and if you're constantly having to be that for another person and they can't be that for you, then inequity is gonna be the thing that gets you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's gonna I think it's not sustainable. No, because you deserve to have someone value you as you value them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you deserve to have somebody also take care of you. Exactly. Like, and that's why you know, something I've learned with living with another person and sharing my life with another person is like, yeah, there are days where I pull more of the like emotional weight, and there are days that he pulls more of the emotional weight, yeah, you know, and it's it's a balance, you know, it's not always 100% 50-50, and that's okay, but it's not consistently 80-20 either.
SPEAKER_00I will say I have a hard time um having someone do something for me because I am so independent, however, I get very angry when you're not stepping up.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh, I'm the exact same way because like today I was coming out here um to see you, and I needed to stop at two places. I wanted to stop um and see if I could find my mom and Mother's Day gift, and then I needed to stop and pick up some like plastic bins, and I did not have time to do both. And so I was like, crap, so I'm in the car with my fiance. We had just gone to eat lunch with my parents, and I was talking to him, I was like, you know, I was like, well, maybe I can go tomorrow and pick up the bins. Like, I'll just kind of talking out loud here, and he's like, Or I could go get the bins. Like, I'm like, hmm, huh, you know.
SPEAKER_00But will you do it right?
SPEAKER_02That is correct. You could go get the bins, and he's like, Yeah, that's what I call, and I said, hyper independence? He said, Yep. But then there's also times where, like, I'll be carrying a heavy box, and I can carry that heavy box. I'm a strong girl. I can carry it.
SPEAKER_00You want him to have it?
SPEAKER_02And he's walking behind me with nothing in his hands, and I'm like, are you freaking kidding me? You better come get this damn box.
unknownYep.
SPEAKER_00And impressing that upon them, like, because you have to spell it out, you have to say it, like, hey, can you like versus I noticed it was heavy.
SPEAKER_02That is a man thing. It is. I think because that's the thing, and I'm talking about him, and I don't think he cares. But I'm talking about him because I could ask him to do anything and he would do it immediately. I could be like, hey, can you, you know, do the dishes, can you do this? Can you do that? Like, will you mop the floor? Will you do it? Yeah, absolutely. But you should ask 100%. I got it, I'm on it. Or he'll be he'll be doing something and be like, Do you need me to do anything? And I'm like, I need you to just know what's in my brain. I need you to read my mind. And is that fair? No. No. Am I still gonna be mad that he can't do it? Yes. Yes. Yes. Is that logical and rational? No. No.
SPEAKER_00You know, my youngster is uh a six-year-old, and uh he is I will literally have my hands filled with stuff. Filled with it. Like this morning, we were going downstairs um and to the kitchen to have breakfast or whatever, and I'm literally carrying a bunch of stuff. Yeah. And he turns to me and says, All he's carrying is an iPad. And he says, Mom, hold my iPad. And I'm looking at all the stuff in my hand. And I looked at him and I said, Where do you think I have the arms to carry your iPad? And he said, Well, you know, I want to go down the stairs like I'm mountain climbing, so could you, you know, hold this iPad so it doesn't break? It's a very reasonable request. It's sensible, right? He doesn't want to break the iPad, God forbid. Uh, but I'm holding a bunch of shit. Like you can't see that. Yeah. And after I say, I'm holding a bunch of stuff, he looks at me like, you can't just take one more thing. Come on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You're the mom. Or I'm at the door with a handful of things. And I'm just standing there at the door waiting for him to open it. Because he's standing behind me with nothing in his hands.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm like, and I just look at him and he's like, what? And I'm like Can can you open the door? Oh, you didn't. He's like, you could say something. And I'm like, context clues, my friend. I know. Exactly. And I think it is, I think I tell people, I'm like, this is such a man thing. And I complain about him, but I do love him. I am married.
SPEAKER_00Same with my son. Yeah. I complain about him. He's the love of my life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I probably love my son more than you love your wife. I would imagine so, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I would imagine so.
SPEAKER_00No offense. No, but I think I'm not listening, but I think a mother's love is is just it's different. It's so different. It's like a different kind of love. It's a totally different kind of love. Yeah. Like, you know, I'd throw down my life for him. Not that you wouldn't for I think you would expect him to be in front of the gun uh in a situation like that. Like he's the man you would expect him to like.
SPEAKER_02But see, he's also the more rational of the two of us in situations like that where I'm like, yeah, let's go towards the guy with the gun, and he's like, get away.
SPEAKER_00That's crazy. What are you thinking?
SPEAKER_02I don't know. I have zero self-preservation.
SPEAKER_00But then you also have to think, alright, you make more money. You're the breadwinner. We can't let you go down.
SPEAKER_02That's true.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna have to take the teacher out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The other teacher.
SPEAKER_02Public ed. Yeah. Man. It's not great in North Carolina right now.
SPEAKER_00We're gonna have to take him out, unfortunately. And he lights up the room. Oh my god. Right? Yeah, he's out. He's out.
SPEAKER_02He's done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But I think, you know. That balance. Like, yes, I complain about him with those kind of things, but also I know anything I ask him to do, I mean, within reason, obviously. Um, probably not even probably not even with any reason. If I said, hey, can you get up on the roof and do this real quick and then like in the middle of the night? He'd be like, I mean, that isn't convenient, but yeah, I guess like he would do it. That's funny. Um there there is that balance.
SPEAKER_00So I think, you know, Cassie, the big thing to think about is this a relationship where I feel like it's mutual? Where I'm giving and he is equally giving. And being very honest with yourself. If you feel like it's not equal, like Haley said, maybe give that opportunity and just say, listen, I'm gonna pull back a little, and I think like I'm not ready to invest in this relationship until you show me some change and and tell him what the expectations are. You actually have to tell him. You can't have him read your mind. Right. Um, and so see if progress gets made. If it doesn't, maybe you need to leave the relationship.
SPEAKER_02And I think there's a part to be said too about when they I say they is like this is all men, but I think it is. When they when they do something, if it's not exhausted. Exactly the way you would do it, that's okay. It is okay. Like I have a certain way that I wash the dishes, for example. He has a different way. The end result is the same. The dishes are clean. He just whistles while he works. Right. Um the end result is the same and the dishes are clean. So I'm not going to bicker or be upset that he is doing it in a different way. Like that's a very simple example. Um, but I think that that helps, like having that mentality as well. Like it doesn't like if you ask him to do something and he does it, it doesn't matter exactly how it gets done.
SPEAKER_00Also say to yourself, you know, is this a mountain I'm willing to die on? Yeah. So is his sobriety the thing that we need for our relationship? Like, is this something I'm gonna fight? Yeah, that's a key. You know, yeah. Or it's a deal breaker kind of thing. Or is it something trivial that it's like, okay, sure, he doesn't always flush the toilet. It's a real pain in the ass. It's gross. Well, then I would have left my son a long time ago because he forgets to do that quite. Does he pee around the toilet? Never. Never. It is always precisely in the toilet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. My kid is good. I will say, um, growing up with a brother who didn't always clean up around the toilet. Same. And now having my fiance who does. I love that. I'm like, wow. Love that. Love that. Love that. He's a very like, he is a pretty clean person.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02Like, and he does clean. And he likes to clean. My son does too. I see, I don't. I'm not a cleaner.
SPEAKER_00I love to clean. I actually was, we need to do an episode about that. Um, because I and it has nothing to do with other people. Like, I don't care about other people's houses. I care about my house. Right.
SPEAKER_02Now, if you had just filth everywhere, I'd be like, If I had shit in the corner, like we talked about that one time, it might be of concern.
SPEAKER_00You know, my big thing is I get very grossed out about two things, particularly at other people's houses. Okay. Not as much mine. Well, my house is always clean. It is. I can't help it. I'm crazy about my house. If I go to your house and your bathroom is disgusting, like ring around the toilet, poop on the toilet, um sink is covered in toothpaste and hair and nasty. Ugh, I can't do it. Same thing in the kitchen. If the kitchen is covered in dishes and it's it's been sitting there for a couple days and there's some gnats crawling around. I know. Do I have people in my life who have houses like that? Me. No, it's you. Not you. I have another friend. No. Um, not that that person has gnats flying around, but they're yeah. Yeah, we have other priorities.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah. Um I feel like we're pretty good about our kitchen. Mm-hmm. And I think our bathroom just gets cluttered pretty quickly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yours always smells. But it's clean. It's always bleach fresh. You've always smells good. It's always good to go. Like, never. I yeah.
SPEAKER_02We just have a lot of things on our counter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh we also just don't have a lot of counter space. Right. Which sucks. Right. But your house is not dirty. You know what I'm saying? Like it you have crap. Yeah. We all have crap.
SPEAKER_02We have clutter.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But you don't, it's not dirty. Right. That's a difference.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um which it's the clutter stresses me out, and it's to the like sometimes where I'm like, I don't even know. I don't know where to start. I don't know what to do. Um, I did clean my house today though. Be proud of me. Good job. Good job.
SPEAKER_00I I I have a very big house and I struggle sometimes with being able. The downstairs will always be clean. Yeah. Because that's what people see. Yeah. Now the upstairs, not as not as perfect because I just don't have the time. I gotta put my energy somewhere, and it's always downstairs. Yeah. Um what the hell are we talking about? Oh, yeah. Expectations, and then all the things. So going back, Cassie, it's it's very late for us. Yeah. Um, I just want you to know, like we said, make sure it's equal, make sure that it's feeling right, put in boundaries, and if not, it's okay to leave. You are not here to save this person. You're not their mommy, and this is not your job to save them. If they need a therapist, go to a therapist. You are not their therapist, you are their partner. Yeah. What is it? Um, your wife is uh what is it? Something about um your wife is not your mom. Something about uh like the Adams family I am your wife, I'm not your mom. Yeah, that's a great one. Yeah. I'm your partner, I'm not your mom.
SPEAKER_02I like it.
SPEAKER_00Period. Well, thank you so much. Haley, how do they get a hold of us?
SPEAKER_02Uh you can do that by emailing us at deep thoughts with h at gmail.com. Find us on our Facebook, Deep Thoughts with Holly and Haley, and find us on our Instagram, Deep Thoughts with H H. That's right. So catch us next time.
SPEAKER_00We've got a fun episode coming up. Woo! Woohoo! Bye. Deep Thoughts is a production by Holly and Haley. Social media brought to you by Holly, podcast editing by Haley, visual design by Marquez. For sponsorship opportunities, please reach out to us via email, deep thoughts with h at gmail.com.