The Gentle Year

Why Kids Don’t Feel Safe Talking to Adults with David Marcus

• Knikki Hernandez

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Stop Trying to Make Them Feel Better

When your child is overwhelmed, your instincts probably tell you to fix it, explain it, or shut it down. But what if those responses are actually making things worse?

In this episode of The Gentle Year, clinical psychologist Dr. David S. Marcus joins Knikki Hernandez to explore why logic fails during emotional overload, what children (and teens) really need when emotions run high, and how being a soothing presence—instead of a problem-solver—creates safety, trust, and long-term resilience.

You’ll hear powerful real-life stories, including why silence can be more effective than words, why “use your words” often backfires, and how kids learn emotional regulation not through lectures, but through being truly heard.

This conversation challenges common parenting advice and offers a deeper, more human way to respond to big emotions—without losing boundaries or authority.

Key themes include:

  • Why reasoning doesn’t work during meltdowns
  • The difference between calming behavior and calming emotions
  • What it means to “empty out” emotional intensity
  • How parents unintentionally shut down communication
  • Why access, not control, builds influence

If you’ve ever felt like you’re doing everything “right” but your child still isn’t hearing you, this episode will change how you see emotional communication—starting today.

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[00:00:00,000]
When your child is upset, what do you do first? Fix it? Explain it? Shut it down? What if the words you're using aren't technically wrong, but they're not resonating either? And what does a child actually need when emotions feel too big?

Today, we're talking about emotional communication, and my guest is David S. Marcus. He's a clinical psychologist with over 40 years of experience working with families under stress. Let's get into it.

[00:00:45,930]
Welcome back to The Gentle Year, everybody. We have a very special guest today. His name is David Marcus, and he is a psychologist, which you guys already know from the intro. So we're just going to dive right into it.

David, are you okay with that? Are you okay with just diving right in with these hopefully hard-hitting questions? Perfect. That's great. Okay, let's go ahead and do it.

So the first thing, David, I've been thinking about your 40 years of experience working with families—or 40-plus years, probably. Nobody has it all figured out, of course. We may know a lot of things, but is there anything about parenting that, for you, still feels a bit uncomfortable or even unresolved as a dad?

[00:01:32,820]
As a dad or as a therapist? Let's be clear.

Really, both. Yeah, actually, I was going to specify in both categories.

Okay. Well, as a therapist, the difficult thing is getting couples in high conflict to be able to communicate well. And that is a journey that is not simple. It includes going into their past and what they've internalized as reactions to stress.

And I see so many parents who blame each other for how they react to stress when actually it's a historical thing. And once they understand, oh, that's where my spouse goes—it's not my fault, you know what I'm saying? Then all of a sudden they realize, hey, you know, it's 10% me and 80% where he's falling back to under stress.

I've had couples come in—

[00:02:28,980]
In fact, I'm thinking of one couple. It's kind of odd—it's ironic. I was doing a collaborative law thing, and I was a therapist for the couple. They were ready to divorce.

And we got into some of this material about where they regressed to. Let me explain that. One of the things that children internalize is how to react to stress. And so these people were under stress from each other, and it regressed back to how they learned to react to stress.

Some people avoid it. Some people get aggressive—whatever it might be. Once they understood where each other was going, they said, You know, that makes a whole lot of sense. Maybe we shouldn't get divorced.

In fact, Dr. Marcus, will you be our marriage counselor?

[00:03:13,600]
And I went—here's the ironic part—I was part of the collaborative law thing, and the rule is you can't be their therapist if you're part of the collaborative law. So it was ironic, but I referred them to somebody else.

But yeah, this is the tough part. The other tough part is how people define words differently. Words like support, or boredom, or companionship. Support is a big one.

Because you have the Type A personality saying, I'm supporting you. I'm giving you this great lifestyle. But meanwhile, their kids never see them because they're always working.

There's a lot here that you're asking me. Personally, you know—my son is a very independent person. He's 39 now. There's no way—he's doing fine, you know—but I'm always concerned about him because you figure the psychologist's son is going to be nuts, or the minister's son is going to be a criminal. You know, that type of thing.

[00:04:04,380]
But now he's doing all right. We had our ups and downs as he was growing up, especially in adolescence. Did I do it well enough? I think I did.

But on three different occasions, my son told me I ruined his life.

Okay, so yeah—what happened? We have to know. What were those occasions? We gotta know.

[00:04:53,110]
Well, I love it. The first one that comes to my mind—he was like 14. There was a 15-year-old girl he thought was interested in him. He was ecstatic.

And he said, She gave me this letter, Dad. And he gives me the letter. And it's actually a suicide note. She's threatening suicide.

So I say, Son, I got a letter. Her parents need to know that she's really in trouble here.

Oh, if you tell her, she'll hate me because you read the letter she sent me. You ruined my life.

But of course, I had to tell the parent. This is what's going on. I said, Wouldn't you want me to say?

No—he was beside himself. You're ruining my life.

[00:05:42,160]
Of course, I found out from the mom that the 15-year-old wasn't really interested in my son. But that wasn't the point. The point was, I ruined his life.

Oh, wow. Two questions. Did you internalize that? Hearing it once is heavy enough, but three times—is there a part of you, as a dad, that internalized that and maybe even feels some lingering guilt?

[00:06:35,320]
No. You know, look—as a parent, I would want to know. As a psychologist, I have a duty to say, Hey, your child's in trouble.

I had no question, but I knew I was hurting his fantasy—about having this older woman in his life. Fifteen—yeah, exactly.

So, you know—wow. That is really interesting. I know that for me, if I had heard someone say something like that to me, like I ruined their life, that would echo in my head for a long time.

How did you not internalize that?

[00:07:21,780]
Well, I knew it was a reaction to the situation. You have to understand—one of the things we talk about is how to develop a safe emotional environment so that your child can share things with you.

He was sharing this with me. He didn't have to. Fourteen. Teenagers have an exquisite sense of privacy. But he was sharing that with me.

My son still, to this day, shares things with me because I was a soothing presence for him—which is a concept we've talked about some.

He knew he could turn to me, and I would be safe for him to tell these things. And it helped me get him through adolescence without too much rebellion.

[00:08:09,200]
He had to rebel some—adolescents have to rebel or they're not growing up. How you handle it can really make a difference, as far as getting into a power struggle with them or helping them learn from their experiences.

Those are polar opposites in a lot of situations.

[00:08:58,390]
We would bicker. He was ready to go. He was 17, a senior. He didn't want to be under somebody's thumb anymore.

We were sitting in the car—I was driving—and I don't remember what we were bickering about. It was no big deal.

Finally, I live on a street called Cherokee Drive. I turned to him and said, You know, Seth—you go to the University of Cherokee Drive. You're going to live on campus.

And he laughed and said, Yeah, Dad, I'm ready to go.

[00:09:37,940]
And he really was. There were times when he said, Dad, I'm going right into my adolescent rebellion right now.

It was funny. He's a psychologist's kid, you know what I mean? And I laughed at that. And actually, he had a point.

I didn't snap the whip. I said, Well, that's cool. Tell me about it. And he could. And I could say, You know, I think you've got it.

[00:10:34,260]
But it begins—truthfully, Nikki—at birth. Creating an environment where the child feels safe, where you're predictable in your responses, handling stress so you can be a soothing presence and respond rather than react.

Not regressing back to how your parents reacted to stress. This is the kind of thing I talk about with parents I see.

[00:11:21,440]
One of the toughest situations is when a parent has a child with ADHD. They often feel guilty for giving their child what they had and want to deny it.

Back in the 80s and 90s, it was thought to be behavioral. Parents would snap the whip. That's a whole other topic.

[00:12:19,310]
A soothing presence is someone who is okay when you're not okay. And when you talk to them and empty out—not catharsis, something different—you can borrow their okayness.

That gives you a safe emotional distance from what's bothering you.

When it's inside, it's like your nose is pressed against a tree—you can't see around it. But with distance, you see it's big, but it's bounded. There are other trees.

It’s other trees. See? Then, once the person is emptied out because you’ve been a soothing presence.

[00:13:12,660]
Then we can start thinking about a resolution, right? There’s something that’s very important here that I should allude to. Okay, Nikki, I’m going to digress just a bit because this is really important.

Absolutely. Thank you.

I call it— you know—an emotional space. Now, what does that mean? Thank you. How I’m using it, anyway. Right. We’re talking, you know, common phrases like “safe space,” all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well, I’m going to explain what I mean by it, of course. You know, when we think about our emotions, we typically pour into our heart. But then, obviously, it’s just connections and our brain associations. This is an emotional space. It’s a psychological space, and it can get filled up.

[00:14:01,800]
And what fills it up is what you’d expect: intense emotion. Or fear, frustration, anxiety—whatever it might be. In fact, in little children, it can be intense glee from getting the little toy that they got. But it’s the intensity of the emotion that fills us up.

And what I want to explain to you—your listening audience, actually—is what happens when we get filled up. Well, first of all, we know when we’re filled up. We have phrases that describe it, like “I had it up to here,” or “it’s the straw that broke the camel’s back.” We know. We feel it.

And how do we feel? It feels intense. Uncomfortable, sometimes. It’s like… it’s scary because I don’t feel like I’m in control of my emotions.

[00:14:48,090]
Sometimes we don’t even know why we’re feeling so intensely, which is another thing that we can talk about. So what do we do? Well, human nature says we turn inwardly and try to deal with it. And what we may do might vary in a hundred ways. We might try to get it off our chests, or journal it. Or we go for a run. Or we, you know, watch TV and try to get our mind off it.

However people deal with that, the point I’m trying to make is: we have to focus inwardly—how we’re feeling—by definition, not focus outwardly. Means we really don’t register what people are saying to us.

A great example of what I’m talking about, Nikki, is what is commonly called a blinding rage. You ever heard that phrase, a blinding rage?

Absolutely.

Okay. Well, that’s pretty accurate. When somebody is so filled up with anger, they’re pretty much blind to what’s going on around them. You can give the most logical, cogent explanation for why they shouldn’t feel the way they do—blah, blah, blah—some solution, and they’re not going to hear it. They’ll hear the 5% that somehow supports their rage. Or your tone of voice that supports their rage. And the problem is when the person who’s trying to explain it keeps trying to explain it and the other person’s just getting angrier. And finally, the person who’s trying to explain it just throws up their hands and says, “I can’t talk to you.” It’s like talking to a brick wall.

[00:16:13,450]
Yeah. I’ve been on both sides of that. I think we all have.

This is human nature. This is not news. It’s just my way of phrasing it.

Absolutely.

And so the point is: that person needs to be emptied out with a soothing presence—someone who is okay when they’re not okay—in order to be able to even hear the explanation.

Yeah. Okay.

But we stick because we like to think of ourselves as logical people. We like to think our emotions are logical, which is a total falsehood. So we’d stick to that level. You know: “If they can just get it, we’ll be fine.” They don’t get it.

This is especially true with children, okay? Because parents typically do—they try to explain things away. Or they relate it to their own experiences. Or they try to divert the child or make light of it. You know? All of it in the name of trying to make the child feel better.

And this is going to sound pretty radical to you, and probably your audience, but as a family therapist, I wish I could get rid of that phrase “make feel better,” because it doesn’t work.

Okay. If you turn to somebody, you begin to explain something that’s really difficult for you, and they go, “Oh, just think about it this way. Just do this.” Is that helpful? Never. Never.

If it was a good friend, you might just say, “Please hear me out.” If it wasn’t a good friend, you’d say, “Thank you,” and go find a good friend.

[00:17:53,500]
Children can’t do that. You really don’t expect your five-, six-, or seven-year-old, you know, to say, “Mom, will you just be quiet and listen to me?” They’re not going to do that.

Young children are geared to please their parents, and so they’re going to listen. “Uh-huh. Uh-huh.” And the parent thinks, “Okay, we’ve got it nailed.” Stop talking.

Until three days later, when the same thing kind of happens and they’re just as upset as they were three days ago. “I thought we talked about this.” No, you didn’t. You talked at your child. Your intention was good. You were just trying to make them feel better. Right. But it doesn’t work.

If it wouldn’t work for you, why would it work for your child? You see?

[00:18:38,250]
I have to explain this stuff to parents all the time because that’s what we’re kind of used to, you know—giving them the benefit of our experience.

The real job of a parent is to help the child to process their own experiences and be able to tolerate the emotions that go along with those. And if they can do that, then you can get to the resolution and figure out what to do about it.

You know what that’s called in common language? Wisdom. It’s wisdom. Been there, done that, know what to do the next time.

That’s a lifelong process, but it begins in childhood. Alright. This goes against the helicopter parents—always telling their child what to do—and the child goes, “Uh-huh,” until they get to adolescence and they tell their parents where to go. You know what I mean?

Or there’s—if the child actually goes through adolescence and still does listen to their parents… Have you heard of the golden child syndrome? Where it’s like they’ve got good girl syndrome or good boy syndrome, where they want to be super pleasing to their parents?

No, this is a little different, but that’s part of it.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, “My teenager has been a model kid,” you know what I mean?

Oh yeah.

Then they go away to college. Why couldn’t they have a model kid? Because parents are making all their decisions for them. They hit college, they don’t know what to do, and they go crazy. They do all this crazy stuff because they don’t have any judgment, because they never learned from their own experiences. They always just said, “Okay, okay.”

[00:20:11,840]
So in essence, adolescents have to rebel in some fashion to become their own individual. How to handle it is difficult, you know—that’s the thing.

If you can make it safe for them to share things with you and help them to learn from their own experiences, they become resilient as children. And you know what we call resilience as an adult? Stress tolerance.

Stress time—thank you.

That’s certainly part of maturation. Stress.

Yeah. No, I appreciate that, man. There’s just a boatload to unpack there.

When you talked about being emptied out—you correct me if I’m wrong—but I think you said that the intensity of the emotion is what fills us up, not necessarily the emotion itself. So, like… if you’re angry, there’s different levels to being angry. And you can be angry to the point where you’re explosive, and you can be angry to the point where you’re just kind of… maybe you’re a little irritated. You’re angry about a situation that happened, but you’re quickly moving on from that.

So the intensity of that feeling of anger is not so… you know, it’s not so overwhelming. Is that kind of the idea that you’re trying to get across with the intensity of the emotions filling us up?

Not quite, but it’s part of it. Let me explain what I really mean.

Yeah, absolutely.

This is the 40 years of experience—having people converse with me. Mm-hmm. From three-year-olds on up.

Potato chips.

How to do it with a three-year-old is obviously different than how you do it… but anyway, it’s a lot to unpack. You’re right.

What I have found is that there are actually three levels that need to be emptied out—three levels of emotional intensity that need to be emptied out—in order for somebody to be truly… Now, it’s at these little levels.

The first one is the here and now, and that’s the obvious logical level, which we usually stick to. Like I just described.

And I usually use a simple example: the garbage needs to be taken out. And we have lots of words to describe why the garbage needs to be taken out. It’s your job, it’s full, it’s getting smelly—whatever it is, right? So that’s level one: superficial level.

[00:22:41,300]
The next, deeper level is what I call the history level. “This is the seventh time I’ve asked you to take out the garbage.” Now, obviously, it’s going to be a more intense reaction than the first.

But if you did not know the history, the outside person might look at them and say, “What’s the big deal? So they didn’t take out the garbage.”

Oh yeah. You see what I mean?

Oh yeah. I’ve experienced that many times.

Yes. I’m not saying anything that’s not human nature. This is not rocket science. It’s just a way of explaining.

Mm-hmm.

The deepest level—and I get some resistance to this—I call it the tapped-into level, but it’s probably the “Here I am” level.

Alright. The fact that you didn’t take out the garbage after I asked you seven times means you don’t listen to me. I hate when people don’t listen to me. My mom didn’t listen to me, and she was always coming down on me for this, that… This one can go anywhere.

Guess where most of the intensity comes from? The history level_toggle.

“Oh, here we go again.” And “You’re making me feel like a piece of garbage.” You know—the deeper level.

But people stay on level one, and they try to argue people out of it, and it does not work because the person is still filled up.

We can tell when we’re emptying out on the history level. People will say things like, “You never do this,” or “You always do that.” Well, they’re referring to previous events.

Or you can enlist it and say, “Has that happened before?” or “Have I done that before?”

And the deepest level—you say, “What is it like?” That happens, but you get to that one fast. Alright.

[00:24:18,550]
And it’s really important that—and especially… I’ll give you an example. This one child was really angry. He was nice. Parents were trying to deal with his anger and it didn’t work.

So when I talked to him, I went all the way down, and it turned out he wasn’t really angry. He was really hurt. Because on the bus, his best friend joined with the others teasing him. So he was angry, but what he really was was hurt. You see what I mean?

The parents never got there. You know? They never got there.

[00:25:09,010]
I know when parents are really succeeding—accessing their children, accessing their emotional perceptions—when instead of me telling them, “Your son’s not angry. He’s really sad about his friend,” they come to me and say, “This is what I learned about my son. This is what I learned about my daughter. What do you think, Dr. Barker?”

I say, “I think you’ve got access. And access is influence.”

If you want to influence your child, you need access to this. If you just talk at them, or even try to make them feel better by distracting them or making a joke or whatever you do, you’re not getting to this process—and not learning it. It’s gonna stay internal and intense.

So this is… you know, it’s a little different.

[00:25:59,260]
This has made me realize… I mean, when I was talking to people, suddenly on another level—where’d they go? How’d they get there?

And then, finally, the deepest level. Yeah.

Okay, but I had to go through this and this and this before.

The neat thing about this—and this is the therapeutic part of it, the therapeutic parenting part of it—the basis of any therapy is when somebody feels truly heard, truly understood, and validated for their feelings. That gives them the hope that things can get better. That’s really what we do.

And so I’d have teenagers come in and say, “I don’t want to be here. My parents—forget them.” But after four or five sessions where we dig down into this stuff, much more often than not: “Dr. Marcus, can you talk to my parents about that?”

You see what I’m saying? This is the process. It’s therapy, but it’s also therapeutic parenting.

I’m just rambling on here. I hope that’s okay.

No, you’re not rambling on at all. I think the conversation is really stimulating. And I love what you said about… “Access is influence.” That sounds so similar to things that my mom says. She’s all about those words.

Oh yeah.

And when you said that, I’m like, “Oh my God—that’s why my mom has so much influence on my life.” Not just because she’s my mom, but because she has so much access to that internal state that I have. And it’s kind of uncanny.

[00:27:42,370]
You’re fortunate to have a mom.

Oh yeah. I chose her before I incarnated on this planet, so I’m told anyway.

Well, good for you.

So I’ve been told anyway.

One of the things I wanted to ask you about is marriage—and then the couples and all of that. When someone is experiencing these intense emotions and it goes back to that history where it’s like, “I told you a second, a third, a fourth time to do X, Y, and Z, and you didn’t do it.” And then all of a sudden all these past incidences start to come up, and I’m in my head.

I’m framing this as a traditional marriage—husband-wife—where the wife is bringing up something that happened six months ago, and the husband acts like, “Why are you bringing that up now? I thought we dealt with that. Why are we…?” And so there’s this tremendous communication breakdown.

And I’m wondering if the stereotype that men always want to fix things—I’m wondering if that stereotype, if it’s true, is causing women not to feel like they’re emptying—

Oh—what was it? Oh no, you’re totally fine. You’re totally fine.

I’m just wondering if men—supposedly, that stereotype of them wanting to fix things—is causing women to not feel like they’re emptying themselves out emotionally. If it’s just kind of building up in them, and then all of a sudden, you know, six months later you’re headed for divorce.

Well… well, yes, things build up. You’re absolutely right. And why? Because they don’t communicate on a regular basis. They haven’t learned what I’m talking about—how to empty each other out.

Again, I’m talking about starting from birth, but you know, when you have a couple…

And—well, I don’t want to get into that complication part of it.

[00:29:25,740]
But does it just boil down to questions? Because there are some people, whether it’s a child or a marriage mate, that they don’t necessarily express themselves well. They keep their cards pretty close to the chest.

I’m one of those people. I never talk about my feelings, ever. Ever. Because I’ve never encountered a situation where—and I’ve been this way since I was little—I’ve never been the type of person… I would just always, like, super tense, clam up, and all that kind of stuff. I could never talk. I went to counseling and all that kind of stuff, wouldn’t speak, just couldn’t do it. Even the counselor told my mom and was like, “Yeah, she literally won’t talk.”

So, you know, I’m wondering: does accessing that part of a human being just boil down to being able to ask the right questions?

No. I’m going to refer you back to the soothing presence—somebody who is okay when you’re not. Alright.

This is a basic building block that starts early enough. I don’t know your history. You know, it’s obviously not our business here to talk about your history, but somewhere along the line you’ve got the perception—it’s really something called a self-experience—some experiences that you wander around with that said, “I can’t do this. Somehow it’s not safe for me to do this.”

I don’t know what the experience is. I have to help people find those self-experiences sometimes.

And what’s the toughest part about it? It often happens—almost always happens—without words. It just reacts. It stays. Question.

So this is when people come to me in situations like you’re talking about. They’ll explain to me just what you did, and they say, “I don’t know why I feel this way, but I do.” Or, “I know I should be doing this, but I don’t, and I don’t know.”

Or—a very common one, as I was explaining in the essay—is, “Is that normal?”

[00:31:47,140]
And what they’re really saying is, “I don’t have the words to describe this. I’m not in touch with this, but I feel it.”

I had a very wise psychiatrist who supervised me when I was in graduate school. Dr. Houghton was his name. He was a neat guy—very professorial.

He turned to me as a student: “David, what is psychotherapy?”

Well, thanks a lot, Dr. Houghton. I mean, you’re my supervisor. So I started to blather about helping people, whatever. You know what I’m saying? The typical stuff.

And he’s sitting there like this. He’s going, “Okay.”

I give up, Dr. Houghton. What is psychotherapy?

And he said, “David, it’s very simple. Therapy begins when the words run out. If somebody could come to you and explain everything so logically and cogently, they wouldn’t need you in the first place.”

And he was right.

I spent a career helping people find words, because once they have the words, they can relate it to their experiences. Things start to… yeah, things start to make sense.

That’s the purpose of an emotional language.

And how do you develop an emotional language? That starts at birth too. And it—there’s so much here, Nikki, you know.

How you do this at different stages of child development. How do you deal with people who’ve been abused? How do you deal with people, maybe like yourself, who somehow says, “I can’t do that”?

I mean, I don’t know you well enough, of course. We’re not going to go into that.

But when I see people like that, I say, “Okay, just tell me what you’re sensing.”

“Well, I have a knot in my stomach.”

Okay. Think about it. Give me some words about the knot. That’s where it begins.

You may have to start from a sensation. Or: “I have a memory.” That’s self-experience stuff. “Tell me about the memory.” It’s in there. It’s just—how do you access it?

I don’t know what the therapist is sitting there saying, “Talk to me. Talk to me.” No, that’s not going to… you know, that’s putting the cart before the horse.

You’re sitting there saying, “I can’t.”

I’ll give you a most dramatic example, okay? I call this—this is a chapter in the book I’m trying to get published, even though it’s called The Therapy of Silence. Great title.

Oh.

[00:34:43,260]
Long time ago. Father Boris. 16-year-old daughter. To see me. And he wanted to come with her— in with her. And I took one look at the 16-year-old and realized she didn’t want her father in there. It was easy to see. I said, “No, let me just talk to her.” He waited in the waiting room.

She sat down in a chair, looking like a deer in the headlights, basically. She said to me, the first thing: “You talk to my father. Out of here.” Oh no. It doesn’t take rocket science to realize this kid’s probably being abused. Yeah. Thank you. Just from her reaction.

What I did is I backed up my chair for her as far as I could in my office because I’m a male.

[00:35:31,490]
You know, this is an abuse situation. And she sat there, you know? And she was just… like this. Said a couple of things. She just reacted like that. And I realized my words were almost hurting her.

So I changed tack and I said, “Well, I can see you’re thinking about things. And if you want to talk, you can. I’ll be here.” Okay. A soothing presence. I’m fine when you’re not.

This went on for five sessions. She kept coming back. And she’s sitting in that chair, just going like this. And I’d say to her, “I see you’re really working at it. Appreciate that. I’m here if you want to talk. Keep working it out. I’m okay with you doing this.”

It’s kind of uncomfortable sitting there for 45, 50 minutes not saying anything. This is what she needed. Like this—she was thinking.

[00:36:31,960]
Finally, I think it was the fifth or sixth session, she got up and went to my play area. And dolls. And she took one of them—male dolls—made a female doll flat, put the male doll on top of it.

I know.

I had her out of there that afternoon. I called child services. She needs help. They… she went to an aunt’s house. All right. And sometimes you got to throw your title around. This is Dr. Marcus. This woman needs out. This girl needs out.

I made it—okay, we hear you. She’s being abused. I know it. So…

She came in the next time. Actually, it was her last time. She came in and walked up to me, and she handed me this gold, frayed envelope—held it up. And there were old bloodstains on it. And I opened it up, and they were bloody razor blades. She gave them to me. She said, “I don’t need these anymore.”

Oh, my gosh. Thank you.

She went with her aunt. That’s it. See what I mean? This is… therapy is… you know. She couldn’t tolerate it until she could, because I was there. And I was okay, just letting her do what she needed to do—in this case, to be quiet.

You know, being a therapist is a— I’ve always liked being a therapist. Really, it’s something that I love being a therapist because it’s creative. Every person is different, you know? And so you got to be creative.

[00:38:33,170]
Teenagers come in: “I don’t wanna be here. I don’t wanna be here.” That’s where I start. I can tell how a child opens the car door, whether they want to be here, you know what I mean? And walk in and say, “My guess is you don’t want to be here.”

“I don’t want to be here.”

“You bet. My mom made me come.”

And I’m already accessing his perceptions of his mother. Instead of saying, “Well, your mom said you were having problems with da-da-da-da-da,” that person—she would have shut down in a minute. You know what I mean? In a minute. A teenager would shut down. Because they get defensive immediately. That’s not what’s good. You know what I mean?

I think you get the point. It’s just how you do it.

[00:39:16,710]
And what you realize—what you’re trying to do—is helping them to learn from their own experiences, being a soothing presence. A soothing presence rather than a soothing person means the environment you create is soothing. All right.

That includes lifestyle changes, perhaps. If you’re totally stressed out from work, you’re not going to be able to be a soothing presence. You know? Impingements, like I said—funny as it is—I talk to people sometimes, especially people with multiple children. You need your own soothing presence, hopefully for each other. You may need outside resources, and you need a lifestyle where you can have…

I tell them, the best gift you can give your kids is to be okay yourself, so they can borrow your okayness when they’re going through the stuff that they’re going through.

[00:40:06,120]
And they hear that. No, I don’t mean take 10 days and go to Acapulco. I mean, you know, I’m talking about… Let’s go to Disneyland. Yeah, you know, right, you know.

So, you know, but, you know, I tell couples: “Set aside time each day to just unwind.” Because if you don’t do that—because your life is too hectic, whatever, you’re working so much—things build up. And when they finally come out, they explode. Of course the other person is going to get defensive as soon as you do that by bringing up things from six months ago.

No. Pick it up, you know, later that day. You know what I’m saying? If you can’t do it, if there’s something in between—in the way of it—let’s figure that out.

[00:40:52,890]
You know? Something is saying, “I can’t do it.” Not with my spouse, whatever.

Okay. That’s where we begin. We don’t deal with the issues. We deal with the fact that we can’t talk about the issues.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s very true.

I like the fact that a theme kind of came up about letting silence do the work in some cases. In this other individual who I’m working with currently—he’s a psychotherapist, does similar things as what you do—there’s an interesting chapter where a person comes in and they clearly have some emotional tension and they’re not ready to talk, and this goes on, similar to what you were talking about.

This is an adult though. This is not an adolescent or a child. And they go through numerous sessions where they’re just sitting in silence. And then one day the therapist understands or sees…the person comes to the door, there’s a different body language there. And, you know, after a couple of minutes, he can kind of just sense that this individual is ready to talk.

And so he asks just one poignant question, and then boom—the floodgates open up.

[00:41:45,120]
So it’s a really interesting concept about letting silence do the work, but I’m curious to know if silence can sometimes be interpreted by a patient or by a child as apathy.

The reason why I ask is because I kind of have this vision of a therapist just kind of sitting there drawing on his notepad—his or her notepad.

What about Bob? You ever seen What About Bob?

No, I haven’t. What is that?

Oh, you should see that. It’s Richard Dreyfuss as a psychiatrist. Exactly. You know, that kind of stereotype where they’re just sitting there and then, every so often, they’ll chime in and say, “How do you feel? How does that make you feel?” You know, that kind of thing.

So can you talk to me a little bit more about—or just elaborate more on—like, the silence and then the connection between the silence and also the emotional language that you’re talking about?

Because one of the—before you go into that, for the listeners—one of the best stories that David told me when I first met him was the Christmas story about your son. Remember that one where he like—he is?

[00:43:20,990]
Yeah. You remember that?

Right. Yeah. So anyway, go ahead. I’m going to let you go unleash on that, or however you want to.

OK, now let’s—let’s go. Let’s go back to the actual question: the silence, the emotional language, the connection there.

Yeah. Well, those are two separate things, kind of. But OK, I’m going to…

The silence—if you notice—I was in silence. I would say every once in a while, “I’m here.” Okay? Because they need to know. “Okay. I see that you’re thinking about things and working things out. That’s fine. Still here.” This calm voice. Back all the way up. May God bless you. Make her feel safe.

So, you know, I’m not silent. I’m just soothing. See, there’s a difference. I just sat there and said, “Okay, I’ll wait for you to talk.” That’s different.

Exactly.

[00:44:11,550]
You know? You know, there’s lots of therapists… I hate the way they present therapists in the movies, for instance. They’re always either way stupid or, you know—it’s awful. But okay.

Oh, it’s the same with teachers, therapists, parents. Like, what are they doing?

Oh. But anyway, that’s another topic altogether.

Oh yeah. You ought to go see that movie, What About Bob, though. It’s a psychology movie. It’s a riot.

Perfect.

But anyway. As far as the emotional language, I talk about developing a common emotional language with your children. That’s a skill. And it begins very early on.

Children—young children—they don’t have an emotional language. You know, parents kid themselves. They say, “Oh, I have a very bright child and they have a really good vocabulary,” so they assume they have a good emotional language. No. It’s a totally different skill. And it develops through interaction.

[00:45:10,140]
So, you know, what parents typically do is they’ll interpret what they think their child is feeling. “I know my child.” Great. You know your child. So what? You know what I mean? They need you in a different role than that.

Because you’re making a lot of assumptions about how they’re feeling or how they’d express it. Even if you’re darn right about how they feel, you’re not letting them use their own words to express it. We’re cutting off the emptying-out process.

“I know how you feel. My guess is you’re depressed.” Whenever I—you know, the words are important, obviously. It might—no, it’s a child. “My guess is it’s tough,” or “it’s hard.”

Why do I use that instead of depressed or anxious? Because I want them to define it for me. How is it hard? Give me a word. It’s hard.

And I think I may have told you that common emotional language with this one boy who came up with “Volcano Mad.”

Oh yeah. That was good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you share that?

Sure, sure. You know, I was seeing—oh boy, I think he was about nine. Call him Tony. I don’t remember his name at this point. I wouldn’t say it anyway.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, he was really angry at his brother. I said, “Well…” Hold on one second—you’re cutting in. You’re cutting out a little bit. I don’t know. It sounds like a signal.

Yeah, it sounds like a signal.

I’m not hearing anything on my end.

Okay, you’re good. I think it’s more when you lean back or something. But anyway, go.

Alright. I pace when I talk.

Yeah, it cut off. It said that he’s really angry at his—and then you said “mom,” but we didn’t hear the word.

Okay, okay. So, I asked him, “Okay. Give me some words about being angry.”

“Well, my mom makes me… um… volcano mad.” When she makes me—when she yells at me—I get volcano mad.

Okay. So that’s meant to—like a 10. You know? Nine-year-old signal.

Let’s go. Give me like a two. You know?

[00:47:47,880]
When she makes me eat my peas, and I don’t want to eat peas. I don’t like peas.

So from then on, when he would get angry, I’d say, “Is that volcano mad, or eat-your-peas mad?” And he grinned, because he knew I got it. Again, we’re helping children learn from their own experiences, and those were his experiences—not the parents.

Not, “Oh, I went through it too, and this is what you should do.” You know what I mean? “I know exactly how you feel.” You know, that kind of empathy doesn’t help because it cuts off the child telling you—using their language to tell you.

The intention is good, don’t get me wrong. You know, they’re just trying to make the child feel better. Like, “You can get through this because I got through it.” I mean, I understand all that. But if it wouldn’t work for you, why would it work for your child?

Right.

If you were telling somebody something and they said, “Oh, I went through it too,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah—oh my God, I hate that. Because it doesn’t help.

And again, you can sit there and say, “Hey, you’re not helping me.” But a child is just going to sit there. “Yes, mommy.” “Oh, daddy.” Yeah. See what I mean?

This is why I find words.

[00:48:32,970]
When a child comes in to see me, I give an introduction to the parents: “Tell your child that Dr. Marcus is a special doctor who talks to children about the things that are important to them.” That’s it. You know?

So when they come in, it’s my purpose—whatever’s important to you. And they may start out with the, you know, Minecraft. You know? Or your favorite video game. And I may spend the first session with them explaining to me how much they like Minecraft. Sure. They’ll explain it to me. I don’t understand a word of what they’re talking about. Oh. But okay. What else is important?

And then they’ll… “My mom’s important.” “My dad’s important.” Tell me how your mom is important. Now, the word “important” is cool, by the way. I don’t want this going into—it’s not the guy’s book.

No, we’re done with the book. We’re done. It’s in the proofreading.

This is my book I’m trying—

No. I just thought of that. Excuse me.

No, wait. His book is in proofreading now. We’re getting ready to publish it in a couple of weeks.

Oh, great. You guys would be great friends though if you guys talk to each other. I have a feeling you would hit it off.

Okay.

Really? Now I lost where I was going. I apologize.

Emotional language. The word “important.”

Oh yes. Thank you so much.

[00:50:10,800]
The word “important,” because it doesn’t define it. Mom can be important because she’s really cool and we talk all the time. Mom can be important because she locks me in a closet. I let them define the word “important.” See?

Again, the use of words—finding the words. There’s so much assumption in some of these words, it feels like.

Well, you know, there’s a purpose to using words like “hard,” “tough,” because they don’t really define what’s really going on. You know it’s tough because you see it’s tough. Kudos. What words would you describe it? What experiences are you relating? Not me. Not Dr. Marcus pontificating from on high about what they should do or why they should feel the way they do. Your parents are just trying to do the best they can. No. None of that. None of the platitudes that go along with stuff like that.

It’s being there. Okay. Getting them to come out with this type of stuff by being there, okay? Certain words too. Thank you. Conversation. Gently. And that’s a skill.

[00:51:50,090]
Therapeutic parenting is not too far from this. They won’t go as deep as I will, you know what I mean? Obviously. The relationship is different with the child.

But again, you know, once we get into this stuff with the child, more often than not, they’ll say, “Can you please explain it to my parents?” And then they do.

I tell them, “This is how you cope with this. And this is how you gain the access to that.” Let’s go.

I tell parents, “I am temporary. I am not the agent of change here—the parents are.” The idea of coming to see me is to get rid of me. Once you have this access and this influence—you made it safe—helps your child.

You don’t need— I’ll joke with them and say, “Come back when your child is 14 years old and begins to spike their hair and paint their fingernails black.” Sometimes they do. Rebellion. They do.

Yeah, right. You know? Because that’s a different can of worms.

Yeah.

And they laugh, but actually that happens. It really, really does.

Yeah.

So is the purpose of saying “I’m okay,” you know, multiple— “I’m here, I’m okay”—is the purpose of saying that, or “I’m fine,” rather?

I think you—I think you used the word “fine.” “I’m fine.” “I’m okay.” Something like that.

I don’t say “I’m fine.” I say “I’m okay.”

Oh, you say you’re okay.

I’m okay.

Okay, perfect. Thank you for the correction there.

[00:53:26,380]
So is the purpose—what is the purpose behind saying that? Is it, like, if you had to explain it to somebody, the purpose of saying this, you know, yeah? Okay. The purpose is for them to know. And no matter what they’re doing, you’re just sitting there being quiet. “I’m okay with it. You need this space.” I’ll even say that.

So… you’re cutting out again. See my big face? Once they understand: “I am present. I am okay,” waiting for them, where they feel like they can say anything. Wait a few minutes—still here. Okay.

You know, I tell this to parents who are having children with tantrums. Sometimes you have to hold them. It’s upsetting. But the child needs to hear: “Mom’s here, and she’s okay.”

[00:54:35,380]
Even though you’re not. And the reason for this is different, though. Children’s intense emotions—on some level—they are so afraid that their intense emotions are going to drive their parents away, because they’re so intense. And sometimes parents feed right into that, unfortunately.

“Just go to your room. I can’t take you anymore.”

Well, the child needs to know you’re still there, even though they’re really upset. If they doubt that, they don’t feel safe anymore.

Little children are geared to please their parents. And they come up to you with a little drawing and say, “Look what I did, Mommy.” It could be the biggest mess in the world, but you can sit there, “Oh, that’s great,” and you put it on the refrigerator.

[00:55:25,200]
Well, this is all part of self-esteem and all kinds of things we can talk about. But their real purpose is—they want to see that gleam in your eye. That’s validation. Needed. And eventually they’ll internalize that validation. And believe it or not, that is called—that’s a type of bearing experience. That actually promotes what we simply call confidence.

I mean, there’s a whole other area of self-esteem that we can talk about. But it begins with… apparently. Okay. Even when the child’s really upset: “Okay, I’m still here,” even though they’re throwing a temper tantrum.

Two questions. So, number one: what if the parent isn’t okay? Maybe they’ve got a lot of pressure on them and it’s unrelenting. And then, you know, I know there’s a lot of what-ifs and, you know, I could throw—everybody could throw a million what-ifs at you.

Yeah. Yeah.

And the other question—you can kind of answer it however you want to—but the other question is about the kids having these temper tantrums. And I’ve seen kids throw temper tantrums before—you know, we all have—at the mall, at the grocery store, wherever. And, oh my God, does that just irritate me so much when I see these little kids doing this. It gets on my nerves like there’s no tomorrow.

And if I saw a parent—I try not to judge—but if I saw a parent doing the whole… I don’t know what you call it, but where they’re trying to reason with their child, or they’re dragging them through the store, or they’re just blatantly ignoring what their child is doing. It’s at a restaurant or something. And it’s just—it’s so disruptive and disturbing to everybody else that’s there. I’m like, what is going on?

So I understand, you know, big emotions need a soothing presence, but at what point are you, as the parent, saying, “No, none of that. We are not having that here.” You know what I’m saying? I might be asking the wrong question, but go ahead.

No, you’re asking a perfectly good question. You want me to answer it, or do you have—

Yeah, no, I’m ready. Yeah, I’m ready. Unless you got—unless I have like 300—I’m sure your hourly rate is probably like, what, $500 an hour.

No. Thank you.

What do you think I am, an attorney?

But go ahead. Sorry. Okay.

[00:57:51,590]
First of all, you do cut it. Be safe. This is not acceptable. Take the child home, whatever it might be. Get them away from what was stimulating. Thank you. Thank you. That’s not the teaching. That’s just the controlling part to get through this part.

You go home. This is actually a whole hour on school discipline. And you begin. Turn to the child. Wiping the stimulus—give them some time to cool out. The good thing about intense emotions is that they’re expensive. Can’t keep it up forever. Thank you.

You go, and then you say, “Daddy did something that—it is something that really made it tough for you.” Yeah, because you dragged him out of the store, or you gave him a consequence. Here we be bad.

Rather than going into the explanation of why you did it—“Well, you deserved it because you did…” The child is going to get defensive, and they’re not getting a chance to empty out any.

By doing this, this is like… the only word I came up with is called a therapeutic response. And maybe I should come up with something more definitive.

Oh, that’s a great term.

It’s like saying, “Okay.” The reality is, where you’re starting is: you didn’t like what I did. Guess that you didn’t win. I didn’t. And let them vent on it. “Well, it wasn’t fair,” you know. “But, you know, my brother was getting away with stuff and I wasn’t,” you know. “And then you got mad at me because I hit my brother in the butt.”

[00:59:34,490]
You mirror back what you hear. You’re soothing. You know, you’re okay.

Well, based on how you saw it, feeling no one to hate you, brother—of course, you’re not condoning hitting the brother—sitting there, the child is now emptied out.

Has that happened before with your brother?

“Yeah, he’s always picking on me,” you know—whatever it might be.

What’s it like when you just—“Oh, it makes me so mad.”

You know, again, the emptying-out thing on a child level. And that’s insane. No wonder you feel—you know—you’re valid. You’re sort of honoring the perception. You’re not agreeing. Notice the term: based on how you saw it. No wonder you felt the way you did.

Why the qualifier? Because now that the child’s empty, he might be able to hear what you say. I may see it differently. My job, as your parent, is to make sure that both you and your brother are safe. Thank you. You’re hitting each other. See?

But I don’t blame you if you don’t know what to do.

What can we do about it, and make sure I don’t have to be something bad to you again?

Yeah, you cut out just a second. Go ahead.

What can we do—you and I—as a merger? Okay? Not “What are you going to do?” “What are we going to do?” And make sure that Daddy doesn’t have to be mean to you again.

The child doesn’t have to defend what they did. You’re accepting what they did, but what can we do to fix it?

Now that the child is emptied out, rather than the lecture saying, “You shouldn’t do that. Don’t do it again.” That doesn’t do anything. You know?

There’s a thing we should go through, but I don’t have the time to. There’s a difference between punishment and discipline. Most of us use those terms synonymously, but there’s a difference.

Yeah, there’s a big difference there.

I do have a question about—oh, shoot. I forgot the question. I should have written it down. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. If it pops up, I’ll interrupt you.

[01:01:09,160]
This is a very thumbnail of discipline. It varies from child stage of development. You don’t discipline a child the same way when they’re three, and then certainly when they’re 15. Okay? Because you’re dealing with how the child perceives you and how they perceive themselves, and how these perceptions can change. So I can’t be more specific. I mean, I don’t want to give just a simple formula.

But the basic thing is, you know, like the question I asked assumes the child already has an emotional language.

How many times have you heard parents say to their young child, “Don’t hit your brother. Use your words”?

Oh yeah, all the time.

Well, I got news: using your words is a skill. It doesn’t just happen. You’ve got to develop a language like that.

I had one—you like anecdotes, and I’ll give you another one. I was seeing two boys, two brothers, nine and seven.

[01:02:53,030]
And I had just finished seeing them, and they were in my waiting room, and I was just catching up with Mom for a few minutes. And all of a sudden, we hear a scuffle. Well, that’s okay. We talked another minute, and all of a sudden we hear a yowl. You know? We both jump out of our seat. My waiting room was right outside my door.

Go out there, and here are the two boys. And the seven-year-old’s looking like, “Uh-oh, I’m in trouble now.” And the nine-year-old’s holding his arm like this. And Mom—I’m observing this. I’m a psychologist, of course. Sorry about that.

And Mom says, “Well, what happened?”

Thank you.

“He bit me.” He picks up his shirt like this, and there are teeth marks on this boy. He really got bit.

And I felt so bad for the mom. Here she is in the therapist’s office and her children are biting one another. She was mortified. As she turned to the seven-year-old, she said, “I told you to use your words.” And he looked at her in all innocence and said, “Don’t know.”

I don’t know how, but I went to her house. That’s where we need to go.

Oh wow. Talk about a teachable moment.

And that’s what we did. And, you know, the more words, the less behavior. So the intensity and the frequency of this acting out—they’re acting out their emotions. If they can speak them rather than act them out, that’s growing up. You know what I mean?

[01:04:28,670]
You know, look—let’s face it—a temper tantrum in a five-year-old we expect because they don’t have the words. If you never develop the words and you have a temper tantrum when you’re 18 years old, you can end up in jail. You know what I mean?

So, you know, somewhere along the line, they got to develop an emotional language.

Yeah, and I’m glad you said this because—and I did remember the question, by the way. So let me just touch on the part about the words though.

What I have noticed—I remember a couple of years ago I was working at a summer school program, and it was for elementary-age kids. And I am not about elementary-age kids. I am a high school teacher, a college teacher—at the youngest maybe eighth grade—but I don’t do well with the younger ones.

Well, anyway, I did the program. I needed the money, whatever. So it was absolutely awful. I hated every minute of it. And part of it was because the emotions of the kids were all over the place. So, full disclosure: I am not that person. I am not the person with a huge emotional range that can deal with all that. It’s just a lot.

So anyway, most of the parents of these kids are millennials, and I’m a millennial as well. And so that’s a very common millennial phrase: “Use your words.” Other generations don’t use it, but it’s a very common thing for millennials to say to their children: “Use your words.”

Millennials are usually pretty articulate. They’re very educated people, so they have pretty expansive vocabularies.

[01:06:03,050]
And anyway, I saw this young boy. He was no more than—I don’t even know—maybe six or seven. Well, anyway, this little boy could express himself like an adult. I mean, and I was amazed by that. And I asked the parents one day, I’m like, where did he learn how to communicate like this?

Well, anyway, they didn’t answer my question because there was a lot going on. There’s balls flying everywhere. The gym—it’s in chaos.

And anyway, another kid said something or pushed the little boy—something that irritated him. I don’t remember exactly what it was, but the parent then looked to her son and said, “Use your words” to the child.

And I said, “Oh, well, this is—that’s my answer.” This is where the kid had learned how to be so articulate and to express himself at such an early age.

Whether this kid actually understood what he was saying is highly doubtful, because he was so little—there’s no way. I think that the parent—you know—he was sort of copying the parents. Because a lot of millennials are reasoning, trying to reason with their children who are very young, and they’re not… these children don’t have the developmental capacity. To reason—a five-year-old or a six-year-old doesn’t have that capacity. I don’t think they do, anyway.

So when I heard, you know, “Use your words,” I kept thinking, okay, this six-year-old is going to use his words now, and that might all be fine and dandy. But when that kid is 15 and he’s in a classroom—or in somebody else’s, another teacher’s classroom—and all of a sudden he disagrees with what that teacher does, or whomever the authority figure is at that time, what’s that kid going to think is the appropriate response at that moment?

[01:07:54,670]
They’re going to go back to the same thing that they learned based on their history, which is “Use your words.” And that might not be the appropriate thing at that time, because sometimes they just need to hear the word “no.”

So what’s your question for me?

The question is: when it comes to the use of words, and you’re saying “Use your words,” I understand developing an emotional language, and I think that that’s great. But what’s the difference between teaching kids words like anxious, stressed, you know, sad, depressed—what’s the difference between teaching them those words to describe how they feel versus helping them to develop their own language?

And then, from a teenage standpoint, obviously, a teen—well, they might… actually, no, I can’t scratch that. I can’t say that a teenager wouldn’t say “volcano mad.” They probably would.

But have you seen, in your own personal experience, a language that’s unique to adolescence when it comes to building this emotional language?

I don’t know if that’s the appropriate question. Yeah, that might not be the right thing, but again, I’m trying to—I’m trying to formulate something here for, you know, for this…

First of all, the little kid. Yeah, let’s dissect that. Use your words.

How old was the boy?

Probably six.

Again, you know, children below the tweens are geared to please parents. It’s part of them building self-esteem. “Please, my parents, smile at me.” I internalize that smile, and I can now smile at myself. Okay.

So the boy might just be basically acting—ever hear the term “pseudo-adult”?

Yeah.

So the child might be just emulating that because he knows it’s going to make his parents pleased.

That’s the feeling I had.

Yeah. So it’s a role. What I call it is a “not me” situation.

I’ve seen a lot of adults come to me—thank you—the term “empty depression” comes to mind. They’re not truly depressed. They don’t know why they’re depressed, but they are. They don’t have any words to describe it. They’re doing a role. They never really developed who they are.

Again, we go to adolescent individuation, you know what I mean? To become their own person. See what I’m saying?

And so that would be one of the things I would suspect.

[01:10:49,000]
Sometimes using these words—not that it’s a bad thing—but sometimes using these words you’re saying is synonymous with playing a role. Is that what you’re saying?

It can be. It can be. Not that it is, but that it can be. No—again, I don’t… obviously, it was something that I would suspect.

And I had a situation with a boy who was 10 and his parents were always fighting. They were divorced and everything. And he played the pleaser and the placater to protect his younger sister from the intensity of their emotions.

And, you know, I worked with them and it got better. The intensity and frequency went down, like I said. He came back to me when he was in his late 20s, saying, “I’m depressed.” And it was just this feeling of emptiness.

And he described to me being in a relationship with a woman who was very high maintenance—so demanding—and you can never really please her.

I had the notes, even on the computer. Even back then, I had the notes. Ten. I don’t know what to say. You’re doing it again.

Oh no.

Right. It’s the same thing. That’s how he knew how people related. And then it went… he left that woman, found another woman. I’m married. As a kid, he had a house, he’s got a good job. He’s a neat guy. He really is.

Sure.

And he was so grateful. I mean, because he didn’t realize it. It was just nothing natural to him. But it was not me. It was not.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So that might be where that six-year-old is heading to. But as far as—okay. The adolescence.

[01:12:32,200]
Yeah, the adolescence. Yeah, because I work with kids all the time, so I’m kind of thinking, okay, I’m working with Gen Zers mostly. And the Gen Zers, based on my experience, they are not easy nuts to crack when it comes to getting them to open up or share about things.

Very… I keep my emotion really, really in check with them. I always do, typically, but I never allow myself to go too far on the positive scale or too far on the negative scale. Either way, I’m in a very short range. And part of that is because they spook. They spook very easily.

And when you get too animated, you get too excited, or get too whatever, you’re not being soothing then, are you?

I suppose I’m not. I mean, I feel like I’m okay, but yeah.

Well, I don’t mean to insult you, of course.

No, no, no, no. I don’t take it like that. Not at all. I’m learning just like everybody else listening.

Well, I’ll tell you what my thought is. My thought is that you’re trying too hard.

I was trying to get them—trying to open them up. I don’t do it now.

Well, it’s good because it won’t work.

No, it did not work. I learned quickly. I learned quickly. I said, no, this definitely will not work with them. We’re all educable. We have to learn from our experiences.

Yeah.

[01:14:09,340]
You could tell. Did you want to talk? Yeah. I guess you don’t. Thank you. Okay. You don’t have to talk. Amen.

Oftentimes though—I have to think about this. Mm-hmm. That introduction. Okay. “Dr. Marcus is only here to talk about anything that’s important to you.” It’s very innocent.

Say, well, I’m just here to talk—whatever. What’s the parent translation of that?

What do you mean?

So I’m here to listen to you or talk to you about whatever is important to you.

Would a parent say the same thing, you know, if their child—maybe their teenager—comes home?

Because you know how the parents always ask the same questions to the kids. When they get home, they’re like, “Oh, how was your day?” It’s the same kind of question.

[01:15:03,340]
It’s the same canned question with the same canned response: “Oh, it’s fine.” So what’s the parent—you know—if you want to get your child, your teenager, to really open up, are you going to say, “I’m here to talk about whatever is important to you today?” Or is there a different way to phrase that?

The problem is, I guess you’d say we’re jumping the gun. What I said earlier is really true. Thank you. You begin this stuff really, really early—develop the language and feel safe to share things with you.

By the time they’re teenagers, if they’re expecting you to either get defensive or angry or just blow it off or whatever—you're too busy to talk to them—that’s the history level. That’s their perception of you.

[01:15:50,540]
I don’t know. And I’m really interested… same with it.

And there’s a natural conflict, by the way, with teenagers. Again, it’s a different animal. If I tell my parents what’s really going on, they’re going to say no. I don’t want them to say it. There are so many lies of omission for the teenager.

And they have this exquisite sense of privacy—because you can’t tell me. You know, this type of thing. Breaking through that… you’re starting right there. “I guess it’s important to you.” Yeah.

Sometimes it’s a tough nut to crack because, again, you’re now dealing with years of history where the child didn’t feel—or the teenager at this point didn’t feel—like they really felt safe enough to tell their parents. And they probably haven’t developed an emotional language.

[01:16:41,500]
Yeah. You know, this is why—the earlier the better—we talk about this kind of stuff, okay?

By the time I did it… sometimes, if a child is like 16 and comes to see me, maybe a year, year and a half before they leave, I will literally talk to them about: how do we stick it out? You see what I mean? What can we do to make things okay enough?

“Well, my grandparents are really cool. I can talk to them.”

Okay. We’ll talk to your parents about spending more time—this type of thing—because it’s parents.

So I was just very, very depressed—pontificate, tell him, do, get angry. Boy didn’t agree with him. The boy was a lot more emotionally intelligent than the father was, to tell you the truth.

[01:17:33,140]
Yeah. Again, each situation is different. He couldn’t talk to them. And we even came up with some phrases he could try, and it didn’t work because her parents were so dysfunctional. Okay, thank you.

Mom was enabling, and Dad was just—job to job, you know—angry, angry man. What I could do for that particular boy: separate from them, and then go over to college and have your life. You know what I mean? That type of thing. And you can choose how you’re going to relate to your parents or not.

So it gets to a certain point, you know. The history is so long. I’m not a miracle worker. I can’t reverse 15 years of history.

No, yeah.

Or 30 or 40.

Well, yeah, of course.

[01:18:29,700]
But by then you should have your own separate life anyway.

Exactly. So, you know, there are limitations to everything, and this is one of them. I try, and sometimes you can even succeed if the parents are amenable.

I make it a point—and I should stress this—I never see children without seeing their parents unless it’s a case of abuse, like that young lady I explained to you.

Yeah.

I was about to talk to her father, and let child services talk to the father, in other words. You see what I mean?

Yeah, exactly.

But other than that—again—I explain to parents: I am not the agent of change. What we’re going to do is tweak your parenting skills. I don’t ever say you’re messing up, because that’s exactly what they’re afraid they’re going to hear. I don’t want to do that.

[01:19:18,340]
You know, we’re just going to tweak things to see, you know, if we can gain access.

And so that smooths things out, and I start seeing the child. I need to see them a couple, three, four times before, you know, it’s done. Okay?

I tell them it’s my job to make them comfortable enough to come see me. And if they’re not comfortable—you don’t want to be here—in the end of the day.

And again, it’s where you start. You can’t direct it. You can’t.

You know, I was in graduate school. My fellow students—he said, “Oh, I’ve dealt with teenagers.” We were filming him—practical experience. So, you know, one week later, we’re filming him interviewing this teenage girl.

“Oh, I’ve had a lot of experience. I’ll set up a checkerboard and we’ll play checkers. I can access…”

[01:20:10,920]
Okay. No, no. Filming this—you know, we took turns filming. I’m filming it.

He goes, “Hey, how you doing? How about we play a game of checkers?”

“I don’t want to play checkers.”

“Okay. Yeah, but it’s fun. Why don’t we just try to play some?”

“I don’t want to play checkers.”

“Okay, but you know…”

“I don’t want to.” Guess what? “I’m out of here.”

That was the whole interview. We were filming it for the practice.

Oh, wow.

I felt really bad for him. To his credit, he came to the practice and said, “This is what I did. This is what I should have done.” I gave him a lot of credit because it was a disaster. You know what I mean?

You can’t just—you know, “I got my way. I got my way.”

I guess I have my way of saying, you know, “We’re going to talk about what’s important to you,” but mine is so vague. You know what I mean? They can make of it what they want. If they don’t want to talk about it, that I was in control of. Thank you.

You know what I mean? You just got to start where they are. The success rate has been fairly good in my 40 years. Thank you.

[01:21:37,000]
Oh, yeah. I have not a single doubt about it.

For those of you guys who didn’t get to hear this story—David, you can obviously share it. I don’t want to do that—but there was a Christmas story about your son, and the moment that I realized that you were different was when you shared that story with me. It was incredibly powerful.

And one of the reasons why it was powerful—and I’ll just go ahead and say it now so that the listeners know what to kind of expect—but one of the reasons why I felt that it was so powerful was because your son learned a lesson himself.

And personally, I feel like a lot of what you’re saying—I could be wrong—but I feel like a lot of what you’re saying is that knowledge is not you telling me something and then all of a sudden I have knowledge. It’s not that.

I feel like knowledge is when somebody has the experience themselves. They’ve realized something for themselves. They experience a cognition for themselves. And then all of a sudden, as long as they can remember that information, then it’s known.

But you just telling me something doesn’t ever work. I have to know it and learn it for myself. And I can hear you, but if I don’t learn it myself, it never becomes actual knowledge that I can use and apply in the real world.

So that story, for me, was huge in that regard because it was like you gave your son the gift of real knowledge and self-awareness. It was very powerful, instead of you explaining something to him.

Do you want me to repeat the story?

I would love for you to.

Okay. Alright.

[01:23:21,610]
My son was about seven, I guess he was. And it was Christmas. And, you know, as far as presents for him, I’d say we can have a small one and a large one. You do a small and large.

And he was into Transformers at the time. So I got a little Transformer, and then the Megatron—or whatever it was—you know, something big.

Well, there are two boys across the street, one a year younger and one a year older than my son, and they played together all the time. And their mom would go out, like in September, and buy every popular toy before they ran out of them by Christmas time.

So these kids had hundreds of dollars’ worth of toys—15, 16 toys to play with.

So I brought someone over to play with him after Christmas, and he came back with a scowl on his face. “How come they get so many toys and I only got two?”

Well, the temptation is exactly what you said, Nikki: explaining, “Well, they’re spoiled,” blah, blah, blah.

Again, our role as a parent is to help children learn from their own experiences by processing those experiences with them, by being a safe person to talk to. Makes a lot of sense there.

So I told him, “Okay, I’ll tell you what you do. You wait three days, and then go play back.” Thank you. “And you tell me what you see about them and their toys.”

Okay. I wasn’t going to argue with him. He’s going to play with them anyway.

He went over there in three days, came back, and spontaneously said, “They don’t even play with those toys. They’re all just sitting around, and they play with maybe one or two. You know, that’s it. I can’t believe it.”

“See? What do you make of that? You like your toys? Do you play with your toys?”

“Yeah, I play with them all the time. They’re really cool.”

Okay. And that was the whole story. He never complained about it again.

I love it.

He never complained about it again. He realized he valued the couple he had. And getting 17 toys—you know what I mean? It’s like, okay, so what? You know?

And again, I didn’t have to lecture him. Because, you know, lecture number four is not going to convince him that, you know… he still felt shortchanged, basically. It wouldn’t have made any difference.

[01:25:52,140]
No, exactly. You didn’t have to explain it. You didn’t have to convince it. He learned it and he obtained the knowledge himself because of how you guided him.

Yeah. I just let him process what he saw. And he convinced himself. That’s wisdom.

When you think about somebody who’s wise—when you think about an older person—been there, done that, know what to do in all these different situations—how do you get it? Experiences. Processing them and learning from them. That’s wisdom.

And so that’s our job as a parent: to help our child gain wisdom. How we do it varies from age to circumstance, which is why our work is creative. What are the things that are getting in the way of doing that and being a soothing presence? That’s part of the creative process too.

It’s not simple.

You know, family systems theory—you know, if you’re upset, it’ll upset your son, and he’ll get back to you and come back to your brother, and, you know… all that stuff, remember? And it’s true. You know, it’s true.

And then we have to make: can the parents fulfill this role? If they can’t, then we have to find somebody who can.

Children have what’s called elasticity. Sure. It basically means that if they can’t get their emotional needs met from one source, they can transfer.

Mm-hmm.

Cool. Billy, you know what I mean? I wouldn’t let this other boy—his grandparents.

And it’s ironic because, especially in high-conflict divorce situations, you know, children don’t have any problems having two moms or two dads. Famous for that part.

The problem comes when they’re young and they want to please their parents, and their parents say, “You shouldn’t like—that’s not your mom. I’m your mom.”

Oh yeah. I mean, this is really common, you know?

Their kids become a commodity at that point, rather than… and the child’s wanting to please, so they have to take a side, and that’s a role.

Yep.

[01:28:28,570]
So… and these are common things. You and I are talking about the key common—you know—it’s unknowing. It’s just… this is what we have to do to improve situations.

Perhaps this understanding of what we’re discussing tonight and say, “Hey, you know, that makes some sense, and I need to think about this.”

Yeah, so if you—go ahead.

Okay.

Typically, we parent how we were parented, and that’s not always the best way.

And again, that’s why I use the term: “We’re just going to tweak your parenting skills.” I don’t want to say, “Well, your parents brought you up lousy, so you’re a lousy parent.” Come on. Are you going to say that? You may think that, but that’s not fair.

You’re saying these things, right? These people—true narcissistic parents—sometimes you do have to write them. Yeah. Because there’s nothing you can say to them that’s going to make an ounce worth of difference.

And that’s when I was doing custody work. I had to go to court on stuff like that. Thank you. His parents were hurting their kids, and I would advocate for the kids. You know what I mean? That work was really hard, but I felt a strong need to advocate for these children who were really being hurt.

All right. Conflict. Mm. That’s enough. That’s another hour.

Yeah, that makes me really sad. I can feel the heartbreak in that.

So wrapping it up: for your book, what’s the theme of your book? I know it’s called The Therapy of Silence.

But if you had to focus it down—it’s not called that. It’s just a chapter. It’s called Parent Rx.

I’m glad you asked. You know.

Yeah, that’s just a chapter in it.

Mm-hmm.

I’m trying to get it published as we speak. The agent’s pushing it even as we speak.

Yep.

[01:30:04,280]
People can access a lot of this information at this point on my website, which is parentrx.org. I’ve done a number of these podcasts. Some of them will be very similar to this one, but they can access this information that way at this point.

Okay. There’s also my email address, which is D. S. Marcus—D. S. M. A. R. C. U. S.—Ph.D. at parentrx.org. And they can contact me that way if they wish to. So that’s what I can tell you at this point.

The book talks about all this stuff—about emptying out, the soothing presence, everything that we were talking about—but it also gives how-tos that I wasn’t able to get…

And I actually go through children of different ages and different situations. Parents say, “Child says, parent says, child says, parent,” to get the verbiage right.

Yep.

And you can tell the words are important.

And I annotate it. I say, “By saying this, this is what you’ve accomplished.” So I try to make it as how-to as possible in the book because that’s what parents want to know: “How do I do this? It sounds great, Dr. Marcus, but how do I do it?”

Yeah.

And so that’s what the book’s about. I’ve had a lot of parents say, “Dr. Marcus, you’ve got to write this stuff down. We need it.” And that was the impetus for writing the book.

Oh yeah.

[01:31:47,650]
I mean, you’re just a treasure trove of information, insights, stories, and stuff. And so I highly—I cannot wait to read your book. Because I know it’s going to be one of those books that just becomes highly recommended in the parenting community. It’s just going to be amazing.

And yeah. I just know. I mean, it’s a great title, the chapters, all of that, your stories. I’m assuming that your chapters also have some of the stories that you’ve—

Yeah. The Christmas story’s in there.

It had to be. Come on, man. That’s my favorite story out of the whole thing. That was when I really realized—I’m like, man, this guy’s the real deal.

This is not somebody who’s, you know, giving cookie-cutter advice and telling people to use reframing and here’s a couple of sentence starters and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, here’s a technique that you can use to try to, quote-unquote, trick your kid into whatever. I’m like, no, this is not what we want.

But you’re definitely the real deal, Dr. David, and we appreciate you.

No, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah. Pleasure.

Yeah, no. Thank you. Thank you. This is really cool.

Well, thank you, sir. We will hopefully see you again. And, you know, you can always come back on the show anytime we wish. You the best of luck with your book, and can’t wait to see more from you. So thank you.

Well, you know, when that book comes out, I’ll be knocking on your door.

Absolutely. Yeah. Feel free.

[01:33:07,390]
And we’ll have to go… that’s the thing about these podcasts is that you start talking, you start rolling, but man—I mean, we could talk about so much stuff. I’ve still got so many things I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you about the predictability factor. I wanted you to talk more about the ADHD and, you know, all of that. I mean, all this stuff.

So if you want me to come back, we can arrange that. It’s up to you. It’s your podcast.

No, we definitely can. Yeah, no, absolutely. I would love to have you because I just think there’s so much that we could talk about. And yeah, it’s just gonna be good stuff.

So, okay. Well, thank you guys for listening to The Gentle Year today.

[01:33:42,120]
We so appreciate you, and we appreciate the listeners. We appreciate David for coming on the show. We’ll have you back again one day, and good luck with everything. We’ll talk soon.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. Thank you.

I want to thank today’s sponsor, actingwithpippi.com, in partnership with Turning the Tide Tutoring. Acting with Pippi is more than an acting class. It’s a space where kids build confidence, creativity, and self-trust through storytelling, imagination, and play.

Led by actress Tammy Aaron, who played Pippi Longstocking, the program helps children step into their voices, take healthy risks, and grow without pressure to perform or be perfect. You can learn more at actingwithpippi.com.

And as always, thank you for listening, thinking deeply, and being willing to raise learners, not just students.

[01:34:40,980]
Thank you.




Head Shot

David Marcus

Guest