Parenting Beyond the Grave: Grief, Faith & Parenting Beyond Loss | Val Kleppen

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What does it mean to survive stillbirth — and then keep living?

In this deeply moving episode of The Gentle Year, I sit down with Val Kleppen — a bereaved mother, homeschool mom, and host of The Motherhood Experience podcast — to talk about infant loss, NICU trauma, marriage after child loss, and finding purpose after grief.

Val shares her story of delivering her daughter stillborn at 37 weeks, planning a funeral for a full-term baby, walking out of the hospital empty-handed, and navigating the physical and emotional trauma that followed. We talk openly about what grief does to a mother’s body and nervous system, how husbands and wives often grieve differently, and why so many bereaved parents feel isolated in their pain.

This episode explores:

• Stillbirth and infant loss
• Grieving as a mother
• Marriage after the death of a child
• Faith and Christian perspectives on eternity
• Parenting living children while honoring a child who died
• Support systems and friendships after tragedy
• The physical impact of trauma on the body
• Homeschooling and working from home after loss

Val speaks candidly about grief not as a linear process, but as something that comes in waves — sometimes thirteen years later. She also shares how loss reshaped her priorities, strengthened her marriage, clarified her values, and changed how she parents her children today.

If you are a grieving mother, a bereaved parent, someone navigating pregnancy loss or stillbirth, or simply someone who wants to better support a family walking through infant loss — this conversation will meet you with honesty and compassion.

You are not alone in this.

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Transcript

[ 00:00:01,664 ]Hey, everyone, welcome back to The Gentle Year. We are here with Val Kleppen. Did I say your last name correctly? You did. Cool. I'm always like on the ball now, double-checking, making sure I know everybody's names and pronounce it right. But anyway, it's so good to have you on the show, Val. I am thrilled to talk to you this evening and to go through your story, your personal history, because when we met on the pre-interview, you were one of the people that touched my heart in ways that I didn't even know existed. I had compassion for people in ways that I just didn't even know I had before you expanded that in me So that's just to give the listeners a little taste of what to expect today.

[ 00:00:41,143 ]But Val, I would love for you to introduce yourself and tell the audience a little bit more about you and your background. Well, Nikki, thank you, first of all, for that warm welcome. I appreciate it so much, and I'm so glad to be here. I am what I call just your everyday mom out here in the middle of South Dakota. I have two living children, and that sentence alone carries a story with it, probably you can tell. I work from home. I'm an executive assistant for a software developer. I work remote; I homeschool; I homestead. I've got chickens in my backyard and in my freezer. So I just kind of do it all. And I'm a fellow podcast host as well, so I'm happy to be here. Wow, that's amazing.

[ 00:01:26,263 ]Well, we're definitely going to get into the homeschool aspect because that is a topic that is near and dear to my heart as well, and I know to many listeners. Many people are looking for alternative ways to educate their children, but they're not exactly sure how to execute that. And I think you're a great person to speak on that subject. But let's go back to your two living children and what the history behind that actually is Because I've looked at you, your bio, we talked, and there's a lot going on there. So would you care to tell us a little bit more about what your history is with raising children? Yeah, I'll try to give the 30,000-foot overview because it is a lot, honestly. And when I got married, I wanted children right away.

[ 00:02:12,044 ]And I remember it was one Saturday morning. We hadn't been married very long. And my husband rolled over and said, I'm not sure if I want kids. And I said, I was just thinking the same thing. It was so crazy. And then we went several years just not having kids. And then a switch kind of flipped, I guess. And so we'd been married seven years before we had our first child And I had HELP syndrome, H-E-L-L-P, and Nikki, I don't remember what that stands for, but I know it's very bad. And I nearly died, honestly. She was taken via emergency cesarean at 32 weeks, so she was two months premature. She weighed two pounds, 12 ounces, and she spent the first 30 days in the NICU. And I remember going home without my baby.

[ 00:03:04,184 ]She was at the NICU every night, and I'd have to call and get updates and have friends take me to the NICU because I couldn't drive, because I was on medication, recovering from major surgery and all the things. And it was so traumatic for us at that point And I just thought, goodness, this is not what I envisioned motherhood would be. She is 16 now. She's wonderful. And about three years later, I woke up early to go to a Friday early morning Bible study, and I just had a feeling I should pee on a stick again. And it was positive. And I went in and woke my husband up, and I told him I'm pregnant. Imagine your wife waking you up and that's the first thing she says.

[ 00:03:52,124 ]And in his kind of sleepy stupor, he was like, oh, are you serious? And so he's like, let's pray about it. I went to Bible study that same day, and a friend who was in that Bible study called me, and I didn't tell anyone at Bible study I was pregnant or anything Called me and said, I just got home from the doctor and I'm having a miscarriage. Can you come and sit with me? And of course I went right over, but what a wrestle it was to watch my friend go through this when I had just found out that morning that I was pregnant. And I was considered high risk, but they told me I would not be treated as high risk until or unless any symptoms presented themselves.

[ 00:04:36,804 ]Every appointment was, this is a beautiful pregnancy. This is textbook. Everything is going well. Just rave reviews every single appointment. At my 36-week appointment, the OB I saw was not my regular OB, so it was just someone who was in the rotation. I went in and my baby's heartbeat was lower than it had been at every single previous appointment. However, it was still in the quote-unquote normal range. I had some questions, but also this wasn't my OB, and I thought I'll see my OB next week. I'll just wait to ask then, and that was the last time I heard my baby's heartbeat. At 37 weeks, exactly one week later, I went into labor. I knew it was labor, but the contractions were really sporadic.

[ 00:05:32,628 ]The timing of them were they were close together, they got further apart, closer together, further apart, but they just got more and more intense throughout the day. Every time I called labor and delivery they told me I was not in labor because my contractions weren't getting closer together and staying closer together, but finally I was in so much physical pain that I had my husband take me in and when we got there they put the, this was you know nine, ten o'clock at night, they put the fetal heart monitor on my abdomen and the heart rate they picked up was very slow compared to what a baby's heartbeat would be and they had me move all kinds of ways and it hurt.

[ 00:06:15,452 ]I was like I can't describe to you the physical pain every time I moved and so finally they came in with an ultrasound and said the heart rate that we're picking up is yours, not your baby's and so they brought in the ultrasound, scanned, and we the chambers of her heart just sitting still and my husband looked at me, Nikki, I remember the absolute devastation on his face when he looked at me and the doctor said those seven words that forever changed our life, I'm so sorry, there is no heartbeat and I remember sitting there just completely confused and conflicted because babies aren't supposed to die and so I'm thinking okay what are you going to do to get it started again, like it just didn't click, I couldn't let it click I couldn't go there until my husband just grabbed me and started sobbing, you know, in my ear, and I'm like, this is really happening, this is happening right now.

[ 00:07:25,272 ]I went from two centimeters to ten centimeters in about twenty minutes after that point and delivered her sixteen minutes after midnight on a Wednesday night in April of 2013. I remember the silence in that hospital room being so loud, if that makes sense, and they the nurse put her on my chest and she was, I mean, she was over six and a half pounds; she was my biggest baby and she felt real, she looked real. But she was gone, and so I went from planning this life with these two little girls to having a three-year-old who did not understand why her mom cried all the time and having to plan a funeral for things you're not prepared for. I was not prepared to walk into the funeral home room and see how tiny those caskets were.

[ 00:08:33,316 ]I don't know if anyone telling me how tiny they were could have prepared me for seeing how tiny they were, and I remember I just collapsed when we walked into that room. My husband caught me, our our pastor put his hand on my shoulder, and it was such a dark time. I can't really describe the journey and being thrust into it like no, no warning, you know. It's like being in a car accident when you go through an intersection and you're t-boned and all of a sudden your world is spinning and you're it's upside down and you're like, what just happened? That's, that's kind of what it was like emotionally. And then, of course, after that I got pregnant again, and I, that's the closest thing to hell on earth I think I can say that I've been through.

[ 00:09:30,379 ]In addition to losing our daughter, I was always hoping for the best but expecting the worst, and he came emergency cesarean five weeks early. He nearly did not make it as well. And yeah, so from the beginning, motherhood was not anything like I thought it would be. It was far heavier than I thought it would be. You know, all these Pinterest things and games you want to play and sensory activities that you want your kids to do and holiday memories and all of that. It was all just kind of a chaotic whirlwind of survival for quite some time in those early days of motherhood. So I think that's the rip-the-Band-Aid-off summary of how I entered into motherhood and how it continued for me in those early years.

[ 00:10:26,048 ]Yeah, listening to you talk really did bring back a lot of memories from our first conversation and how heavy, but how sensitive this felt at the time, just listening to you talk about these things. You hadn't even gone into that much detail with me at that time, so first I want to just say I'm really sorry that you went through that. I mean, it's unthinkable and absolutely unimaginable. I can't even fathom it, not even to any extent, like what you did and even how you pulled through. So how did this affect your marriage? Because going through something like that, I can only imagine that people sometimes just naturally grow apart because they can't deal with the grief and the pain. Is that what happened with you guys?

[ 00:11:16,328 ]I think it's a fair question because you do see a lot of relationships, not just marriages, but relationships struggle after a loss like this. We went on to facilitate support group for bereaved families and this was a common occurrence. And I think that in short answer to your question, my husband and I actually became closer as a result of this. And we had seen, he saw the very physical, carnal delivery of our baby girl. He held her, I remembered Nikki. I was just trying to like get my bearings. I had just delivered her, he cut her cord. I had held her and I said, do you want to hold her? And he shook his head no, and he stared at me and then he nodded yes.

[ 00:12:16,028 ]Like he didn't want to hold her, but also how could he not? And so I handed her to him, and this is gonna choke me up. It does, I can't get through it without not. And he held her out. He was staring at her face, kind of holding her out from his chest, just looking at her. And he kind of like subtly just shook her, like if he could just startle her awake and make her breathe and bring her back to life. Like it was just a subtle movement, but so purposeful and intentional. And I knew exactly what he was doing, and that was all we wanted was to bring her back, and we couldn't do it. And so just, I can't imagine going through that with him and then not having him in my life after that.

[ 00:13:11,868 ]And unfortunately, what I think happens based on the wives mostly that I've counseled and facilitated in groups, but couples as well is men and women grieve so very differently. And as Harlan's mom, as the woman, I grieved very openly and very often. It was incessant. And my husband grieved when he needed to, and those were very different timelines. And so a lot of the time, how you support one another in that, no one explains it to you. There is no book for how to get through it or anything like that, so it is challenging and at times can be insufferable. I remember on her third birthday, I walked, or what would have been her third birthday, I walked out of our bedroom into the kitchen, and he turned around and asked me if I wanted coffee, but I could tell that his eyes were red and that he had been crying.

[ 00:14:20,368 ]And I said, Are you okay? And he told me, I keep her in a box and when I take her out, it's hard and it hurts my heart. And it took me three years to see him grieve in that way. And so over time, you know, he gave me the freedom and the space and the permission to grieve however I needed to. And I'll tell you, Nikki, I needed to grieve messy. It was the only way I survived. It was being able to just flail emotionally. And he needed to grieve strategically and intermittently. And I gave him the space and the freedom to do that. So yes, a lot of couples struggle and suffer through it, but I think it's because there's a lack of understanding of how very different the needs in their grief journey are.

[ 00:15:18,761 ]Yeah, how long ago did this happen? So she would have been 13 this year, 13 years ago, yeah. How do you guys hold space for one another now? I'll tell you, he holds much more space for me than I do, and he does compartmentalize it. But I just feel things more, I feel things more physically, if that makes sense. And so my grief is very visible. And I've always been a crier. I've always been a big feeler, and so he knew that when he married me And so it was no surprise, really, how I would walk through this. And I think a lot of it, now, 13 years on, a lot of it is just unspoken. I'll come in and say, I just need a hug. And if it's the month of April, he knows.

[ 00:16:19,120 ]He knows exactly why. Or sometimes if it's just, I'm having a hard day, and he'll say, what's wrong? I'll say, I don't know, I can't explain it. But there's always that underlying, well, maybe it is this, maybe it is a little bit of this. And so it's just kind of, liken it to the tide. And you're standing on the beach, and your feet are in the sand, and you're just enjoying the view And then without realizing it, the tide comes in, it's lapping at your knees, and then suddenly it knocks you over. Next thing you know, you're rolling around in the waves. Then the tide rolls out, and you're left on this beach gasping for your breath. And it's just kind of like that. It just comes when you're not expecting it.

[ 00:17:06,201 ]It beats you up and tosses you around, and then it leaves you alone again. Yeah, that's a great metaphor. How does love look like, or what does love look like after this shared loss? Like, was the love between you and your husband different before this experience occurred? And is it different now? And if so, how? That is a phenomenal question. I think it is different, and I don't know if I can tangibly explain how. I think before, when you have certain expectations about life and things are going according to plan, he had the job he wanted, I had a job that I endured, and we were just living the dream. We had a house, we had a child at home, and we had our friend group and all the things, like life was just kicking along naturally.

[ 00:18:06,021 ]And then this total devastation swept in, and we really had to rediscover ourselves as individuals and as a married couple. And so after that, there was a lot of hurt, I think, especially for me. I took everything so personally And looking back now, I can see I just felt like a failure in everything. I felt like there was nothing I could do right, not even bring life into this world right. And so there was a lot of me feeling insignificant, I think. Whereas for him, he just felt like gosh, this woman just needs my support all the time. I'm here holding her up on this issue and then holding up her heart on this one. And he was exhausted; I don't blame him

[ 00:19:04,861 ]And I think that now we've kind of learned, first of all, to just communicate more openly, not to say that we don't fight because we do still have our moments, but it's not as what is it called when you are, but like you've got a finger, a feather trigger, what's it called? Oh God, it's like on the tip of my tongue. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, where your finger's like on the trigger and it's ready to pull it at any time. Yeah, at any time. Oh God, what's that trigger for? I know, right? While you're talking, I'm gonna look this up. Okay, yeah. So there was just this moment where anything could set us off at any time and now it's not that at all.

[ 00:19:57,314 ]Like it's more of we're trying to approach one another with understanding and grace and let's talk through this rather than fight through this kind of thing. And we wanna set that example for our kids too. So yeah, I'm looking at the words here and it's not coming up, but I get it. You're overloaded. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do. I do get it. So one of the questions that I have for you, or actually just kind of summarizing this topic rather, what would you say if you could say one thing to husbands, especially those that are going through a situation like this? What is something that you would say to husbands who are listening to this? And then what is one thing that you would say to wives who are listening to this?

[ 00:20:47,934 ]Yeah, for husbands, I would say dads. I know that your hearts are broken too, and I want you to know that you are seen. And I want you to know that I understand the extra load and burden that is placed on you because you are supporting your household now, not just with the income you bring in and the manly muscles for opening pickle jars or whatever it is, but emotionally you are supporting your family, and I know that that is such a weight. And I just want to say that one day, I don't know when, I don't know how soon or how much time it will take, but one day you'll look back and say, wow, I did all of that. And I want you to know that on that day, I'm so proud of you.

[ 00:21:36,095 ]I'm so proud of you, dads. To the moms, I would say, as broken as your heart is, even if you can't see it, your husband, your partner's heart is also broken. It's just broken differently from yours. And I want the moms especially to give themselves permission and space to just grieve as messily as they need to. And if they can't get that constant emotional support from their man, find a group, find a support group, grief support, pregnancy and infant loss support, any kind of support group where there are not only facilitators and professionals there who get it and understand and can help you sort through it, but you literally have this network of people that can hold you up when you can't hold yourself. And it is so critical; it is so important.

[ 00:22:34,655 ]A lot of people don't go because they're nervous or they just feel like, am I just gonna cry the whole time and make a fool of myself? Yes, but guess what? Everyone else there is also going to do the same. But you'll reach a certain point where I can call up any member who attended our support group and say, was this helpful? Was this beneficial? And I know that they will say yes. And so I encourage you, don't depend on your husband to be your only support. Go out there and find it from others that can maybe in some situations and circumstances provide it more fully for you. Yeah, I appreciate that. In my Facebook group, the gentle year of father commented on one of the posts recently and said that before he met his wife and had his children, he felt like an empty shell of a man.

[ 00:23:29,855 ]Before he had that family, what you said reminded me of that comment because it does take a lot of strength, a lot of emotional fortitude. But at the same time, even though it can be hard, it's such a rewarding and fulfilling experience to be in that role. And I think you're absolutely correct to say that fathers, especially those that are there and that are present and that are doing their absolute best, they deserve to be commended for that because it's a lot. So thank you for sharing that. So in terms of moving on from this situation that you've lived through, and I don't know that moving on is the right phrase, but what does it mean to parent or to be a parent of a child who is not physically here anymore?

[ 00:24:20,714 ]Yeah, I don't know if moving on is possible. I said it will be 13 years this April and we have moved forward. We have continued life, but I don't know that I can ever move on. Like, I still cry, I still miss her, I still think about her every day, and see the would-have-beens, could have been, should have been. And so another, I'm so appreciative that you asked this question because not only is this something that I don't feel like gets talked about enough, but it's something that is so beautiful, but complicated to articulate. Because all we want to do as parents is be our best and give our best to our children. And then parenting beyond the grave, like in the decisions of choosing her casket, buying her cemetery plot, keeping up her her visiting however often, on her birthday, going in and leaving a donut on her headstone every birthday.

[ 00:25:37,244 ]And it took me eight years before I could complete the happy birthday song for her without breaking down. These things we just we don't do them. We do them for our children, I would say beyond the for sure we do them, but more so I think for really being honest, we do them for ourselves because we want to to still fulfill that role of giving and doing the best we can for our kids. I don't know whether she can still see me or not. I don't know if she knows who I am. Today I believe that she will one day, but I I think that anything I were to do now is to just ensure that her life mattered, it still matters today, and that with my two living children here, they know all about their sister.

[ 00:26:37,541 ]It's not something that we've hidden or shielded from them at all. And she, in her own way, is and always will be a part of our family. I think that the day— I hope it never comes— but if there ever comes a day where I'm not permitted or allowed or given the ability to share about her, I think that would be absolutely devastating because there is no me as a mother without her, even though she's not here. Yeah, your story reminds me of my grandmother. She lost her daughter when she was eight— not when she was 18, but when her daughter was 18 years old. I never met her because she was my aunt, and I wasn't born at the time. But man, you're right, you're right.

[ 00:27:31,138 ]My grandma is definitely not who she is. Even the same person after you know that tragic incident happened, and it's heavy, it's a lot. Yeah, so usually in my experience when I've gone through something, I have not gone through anything even remotely close to what you've gone through. But generally speaking, I have a lot of wise people around me, very smart, and when I'm going through something, there is always like that. We'll just be having a natural conversation like you and I are right now, and they'll say something that just lands the exact right way, and it's exactly what I needed to hear. I hold on to those little phrases sometimes, or those expressions. Was there anything that anyone ever said to you, whether it's a family, a friend, or a client that you know, may have recently worked with?

[ 00:28:22,400 ]Was there anything that anybody ever said to you that just made you feel like absolutely understood and seen as you were, you know, as you're going through your own journey with this? The very first one that comes to mind, and I've told this story so many times, and it may not be what you're expecting, but it still just warms my heart so much. Our pastor who officiated Harlan's funeral, he came over to the house to talk things through with us, and he was sitting on our sofa, you know, he prayed with Us, he went through every detail with us about what the service could look like, how we would want it to go, and all of these.

[ 00:29:12,205 ]I remember he closed his notebook and he looked up at me from across the room and he said, 'Clepins, now is the time to prepare for hot dishes and for people to say stupid things And I remember it was almost like a Tony Robbins moment when he just like shifts that mood instantly to get your mind out of the pit that is in. It was like that, except like he didn't poke or prod me, just what he said kind of bewildered me. I remember I chuckled even, like, 'What?' And he was so right. You know, here in the Midwest, hot dishes, I think everybody else calls them casseroles, but man, they came flooding in from our church family, from neighbors, from friends.

[ 00:30:03,544 ]Everybody brought a hot dish, and not everybody, but a lot of people really did say stupid things. Not because they're stupid people; they're well-intentioned, they meant the best. And in support group, we called them well-intentioned idiots, not because they were actually idiots or stupid again, but it's just some of the things they would think to say in trying to say the right thing. And here's something else that I think I read either in a book or a blog, like there is no right thing to say. And once I understood that and understood also that people were still going to try, I think it really gave me some much-needed levity to hear these things and still be able to laugh at them, but always to remember Pastor Mike sitting across.

[ 00:30:57,347 ]And I mean, it was days later, two days that he's sitting across from us and tells me that and other people might scoff or gasp or like, I can't believe he said that. I'm so glad he did. And I'm so glad he said it early on to prepare us instead of after the fact to be like, people usually say stupid things or whatever. Another moment early on is I got a text message from my best friend from the eighth grade. And she said, Are you still at the hospital? I said, No, we just got home, Pastor Mike just left. And so to put this into context, I graduated from Powell, Wyoming, and that's where she still lived at the time. And I was living in Fargo, North Dakota when this happened.

[ 00:31:53,907 ]So there was a distance of like 705 miles if you wanna get technical. So she, and I texted her back, like, I don't know what to do, my mind is spinning. And she said, You don't have to do anything. Just sit, just rest. Like, there's nothing that you have to do right now. Moments later, she came walking on my driveway. And I opened the door, realizing that she had just driven straight through 700 miles to show up at my doorstep. And when I opened the door, I said, I would have told you not to come. And I'll never forget what she said. As she swooped in for a hug, she said, Val, that's why I didn't ask. And that, of course, has always stuck with me.

[ 00:32:49,508 ]Sometimes, especially in loss and grief, people are very quick to say, please let me know what you need. The truth is, we don't know. We don't know what we need. And even if we did know, we're not gonna have the strength or the fortitude to ask for it. And so the fact that she said, that's why I didn't ask, and she just came and showed up for me forever cemented the true bond of a friendship in a moment when I needed it absolutely the most. What you said about people making comments that are well-intentioned but not necessarily the most intelligent thing is so true. I was at a Bible study one time, and the lady who was teaching me, she said, she goes, sometimes I will say things.

[ 00:33:39,047 ]And they might not always be the nicest things, but believe me that it's not out of a bad heart. It's more out of a stupid head. Oh, I love that. Now I use that phrase all the time. If I say something like, believe me, it's not out of a bad heart, I swear. It's just more out of a stupid head. So anyway, I totally resonate with everything that you said. I mean, it's just having those friendships. You really do find out who shows up for you in those moments. Now onto something that may not necessarily be as pleasant or easy to talk about. Were there moments where you felt hurt by the people who loved you the most?

[ 00:34:15,928 ]Maybe they said something or did something, or maybe they just didn't do anything at all, and you thought they were gonna be there for you, but maybe they weren't? Because that, when you start to realize who your real friends are, you also start to realize who isn't. Hmm, and I would say an answer to your question, yes, all of the above. I will say a caveat here on the front end of that is 13 years later, if those people were to say those things or or do those things or not show up today I would not be as hurt or offended as I was back then in those moments just because I think for me personally I've gone through a lot of personal development, personal growth, a lot of learning and changing, and I've been able to exercise a lot more grace today now than I could have then.

[ 00:35:13,134 ]All of that to say there were some terrible things that we experienced and that I went through, and I remember especially the hardest thing for me was returning to work and people who used, I mean, I'm not, I'm gonna own this actually, I would say I'm a pretty fun person and I think that was validated by the fact that people would come to my office every single day just because like I was their breath of fresh air. They could come in and chat, get a laugh, they could vent, whatever, like I was pretty fun to be around. Every single day those people would be in my office. I came back to work and I actually, like on the third day of returning to work, I went into my boss's office and I shut the door and I said, were people instructed not to talk to me?

[ 00:36:09,613 ]And he said, what are you talking about? And I said no one is talking to me. People were walking down the hallway looking at watches. They weren't wearing anything to avoid making eye contact with me, and I felt like I had this contagious disease where if they touched me, or looked at me, or talked to me because my child died, their child would die, like it was this curse thing. That job wasn't the brightest light in my life to begin with, and that environment made it so much harder, and also people trying to This goes back to the well intention. They were trying to relate. However, they could, but until or unless you have experienced it— and I pray to God you do not—there is no relating.

[ 00:37:03,054 ]But I remember one gentleman in particular who he was an executive level and came and said basically asked me if it was hard to come back to work. I'm like, what do you think? Yes, it was hard. And he said, well, like I learned in my divorce, you just got to get up and brush yourself off and keep going. And I totally in that moment. I don't know if I was. We're gonna say that it was the Holy Spirit longing to teach this man a mess and a lesson and share this message with him. When I said, well, I just put my daughter in the ground, and I don't think comparing it to a divorce has any weight here at all, he immediately backtracked.

[ 00:37:54,873 ]You know, I didn't say that to like shame him or call him out or anything like that; it was just my immediate response, and it did anger me greatly after because essentially, divorce is a choice. Even if it's not the choice of both of you, someone chose to divorce, and you can remarry again. Whatever, my daughter died, and I literally buried her in the ground and then had to come back to this job that I did not love to begin with, and it was so hard for me to return to now with all the weird stuff and being avoided and all of this. I just remember being like if if I if there is not a single person here who can relate to me at the depth and level of pain.

[ 00:38:42,894 ]And suffering that not only I have just been through but I'm still going through. What is for me here? And I think that's what led us to start the support group and the organization that we started after that, just because even if none of them were going to give it to me, I sure as heck was going to be the one to give it to other people and give them that space that they needed. And so I feel myself getting riled up and starting to yell into my microphone, but that, I mean, I could sit here and tell you story after story after story. Nikki, I don't want to because I don't like remembering those things, and truthfully, it was in the most vulnerable part of my life when, of course, it would hurt me far more than if I were to experience their words or their phrases today, you know what I'm saying?

[ 00:39:40,725 ]Yeah, most definitely. Have you become more selective about who gets access to you now? Oh, that is a great question. That is a great question because I don't think I want to admit the answer to it. But the answer to it is yes. Yes, there are. And and here's why. It's the same thing with when I went back to work and realized, you know, my husband is across town. My daughter is across town, and the three of us are spending nine, ten hours apart doing things that we don't love doing without the people that we love the most. I do not feel like this was God's design for family, and I don't want to do this anymore. And someone called where my work and basically wanted to transfer money from one account to another so he could make his boat payment.

[ 00:40:32,952 ]I remember thinking like this is not my purpose. My purpose is not to help this grumpy gentleman make his boat payment like I'm, I want to be home with my living daughter, and I want to give her a life where her parents are happy and fruitful. If we're together and we're making memories, and we're not just like driving through Little Caesars every night because we're tired, and you know, it's only five dollars. Of course, it was only five dollars back then and all of these things. And now I forget what the question was. It's, uh, about access to you. Have you oh right, yes. Okay, thank you. So that perspective shift helped me to put boundaries in place that I had never put in place before because I was a people pleaser.

[ 00:41:25,783 ]There are some people who would hear me say that and laugh because they know that Val is not about pleasing people today. But it's so true because now I have boundaries in place I never had before and it's not about, like, oh I don't want to deal with their stuff or whatever. It's just because there are things that are important to me and that I value that may not be important to someone else or that they may not value. I don't need to spend as much time or energy with those people as they want to take. My priorities are faith, family, and everything else flows after that. And if you're not in those top two, then we got to figure out if there's space for you or not.

[ 00:42:19,237 ]And do I feel bad about that? Not even a little bit. Yeah, yeah, respect, respect on that one time. I took a personality quiz one time. It reminds me of what you said about, you know, just these two things: you got your faith and your family, and that's it. I took a personality quiz, and it was basically like you care about three things: alone time, money, and like four people. I was like, that's accurate. That's 100% accurate. So, uh, from, you know, just from your own experience, obviously you have a ton of wisdom from what you've gone through, and I know that obviously if you could have your daughter back, you would trade all of this just to have her back.

[ 00:42:59,786 ]But in your opinion, how do you think that the listeners of this podcast can start to kind of evaluate their own inner circle? Because I'm thinking, like, okay, if I'm trying to evaluate my own inner circle, who can I call at 2 a.m? who Who is going to listen to me now? I don't talk i'm the exact opposite of you as far as like emotions and stuff Never i'm not flailing around none of that now granted i've never been through anything like what you've gone through but I don't I don't do that I completely like Isolate myself until I can get it get my head on straight and then i'll come out but that's it's like turtle turtle mode but like Who you know who listens if I did need somebody to listen to me who would?

[ 00:43:46,065 ]And yeah, you know who remembers like the little things about me, and you know, and I'm and I mean this in a reciprocal sense because like I would need to be able to do those things as well, as you know, too. Who isn't afraid to, in your case, you know, talk about Your your child or say their name, you know, who's not trying to rush this grief process that you've, you know, been through for over a decade? And you know, who really allows you to, to grow and to just totally come undone? Who is that steady person or persons who, you know, are just in your life? And so for you, how do you, how would you advise someone, you know, a client or whoever, somebody who's listening to this podcast to kind of evaluate their own inner circles, especially after a situation like this?

[ 00:44:34,918 ]Yeah, that is so important to think about. And it's also something that I believe will happen naturally because you really won't have a choice. You'll just kind of sit there and you'll, you'll kind of cycle through that mental Rolodex that you've got of, you know, who, who can I call? And so I want to say, and I feel like this is really important to not only hear but remember this: your circle and who you allow in that circle is very fluid. You can also allow people out of the circle. And also, not all circles are formed in every season of your life. Like there is still room in the circle. And so sometimes, especially as you're going through things like this, you will find people connect with people that you can bring into your circle.

[ 00:45:30,197 ]It doesn't mean that they'll always be there or stay there. But for that time and season that you're in, they absolutely belong. And so I think it's going to be a very natural process; you'll find yourself going through it without really even thinking about it. There will also be a lot of hurt and pain because some people that you may have expected would be there for you, it turns out are just not capable. They don't have the emotional capacity; they don't have the mental capacity. They don't have the time to be there for you in a way that you need. And that's going to hurt, and it's going to sting, and it's really going to change your relationships. And it's going to be hard.

[ 00:46:14,137 ]I'm not going to say that it's going to be easy, and it's worth it. And you know what, 13 years later, you'll be fine. I'm going to say it's going to be painful, but it's also going to be absolutely necessary. And the Bible says that iron sharpens iron And you are not going to want some flimsy little Styrofoam piece in your circle in those moments. You're gonna want someone who can sharpen you, who can hold you up, who can not only hold you up, but they're holding you in one hand and they're fighting your battles for you in the other. Like those people are so key and essential. And sometimes who those people are will absolutely surprise you.

[ 00:46:57,057 ]So what I learned was there were people who I thought and expected would be an act one way, and there were people who I discounted for those same reasons. And a lot of the time, the people who I pinned a certain way were not that way at all. Yeah, yeah, I definitely know. I think everybody who's listening to this can relate to that to some degree. So I don't think you have a medical background. Is that accurate? That is accurate. Okay. Now, based on your own experience, and obviously, I know you don't have a medical background, so you're not going to discuss it from that lens, but all of this trauma is going to have a physical effect on the body, the brain, the nervous system, all of that.

[ 00:47:42,498 ]Just from your own perspective, what does this trauma do to especially a mother's body, soul, brain, and nervous system? Yeah, it does some pretty inexplicable things. One of them being I remember my forearms would ache, just throb. And I felt like I don't know what that was, Nikki, but to me, it felt like my arms knew that they should have been holding a baby girl and they were empty. And they physically ached and yearned for that. And so it's almost like parts of your psyche just manifest physically in your body. And that happens to a lot of bereaved parents. And I can say that because they shared about it at every single support group. The mental piece, though, as well, people tried to tell me like, oh, there's a difference between mourning and grieving and you're not actually mourning right now, you're grieving.

[ 00:48:46,378 ]And I'm like, you don't, you don't know me, you know, kind of thing. And I didn't know what the difference was. I just know that every part of me, heart, soul, mind, was broken. And when something is broken, it really hurts. And it didn't matter who, I mean, the people who really ticked me off, if I can go there, were the ones who treated grief like a linear process, or like the stages, right? The quote-unquote stages of grief, like, oh, you've been through denial, now you're going into anger. I'm sorry, grief is a scribble. And it will circle back on itself so many times and end up in the weirdest places and show up at the weirdest times. And the physical ramifications, like, I just remember I was hungry, but I had no appetite, and that didn't make sense to me.

[ 00:49:40,543 ]I was tired, but I couldn't sleep. I was sad, but I couldn't cry, or I couldn't stop crying, even if something made me laugh, and I felt bad for laughing and all of these things. And so there was, it was just a hot mess for a long time. And I, again, going back to feeling like a failure, I felt like I gotta get myself together. I'm falling apart. Everything around me is falling apart. I can't even grieve right, because I didn't fit into this stage or this linear process or any of that. And the whole thing is, like, I was grieving in exactly the way I needed to, to be able to provide support for the hundreds and hundreds of families we supported after we lost our daughter. Yeah, that's heavy.

[ 00:50:34,284 ]I don't know why, but as you were talking, the word nostalgia came to my mind. Now, when we think of nostalgia, it's a positive word. It's usually referring to a time that you miss. Is there any part of you that misses that time when you were going through, or misses something, maybe not misses that time but misses something about that time when you were going through all of this? Maybe just a part of it. Is there any sweetness that occurred during that time that you kind of miss or still maybe even carry with you to this day? I'm already choking up. Just today, it's crazy to me that you would ask this question Just today, we are having an unseasonably warm, beautiful week this week.

[ 00:51:29,303 ]And I was sitting outside; I wish I could say the same. Look at it. I was sitting outside on our patio, and it was just almost like this mental transport to sitting on the grass beside Harlan's gravesite, and it just hurt. So we've moved since. We're 300-some-odd miles away from her gravesite. But when we lived there, it just became like my thinking spot. You know, I would go to the cemetery. It was so peaceful; it was so beautiful. They did such a great job curating it, and I would just sit at her spot. And today, on the patio, 300-some-odd miles away, I could smell those smells. I could smell the trees. I could smell the grass at her spot. I could hear the turkeys. I could see the deer.

[ 00:52:31,743 ]You know, it was almost like I was sitting back at the cemetery. And this might seem so strange because who wants to spend their time at a cemetery? But in that, today, I found myself really missing that spot. So I think you're right. I think there absolutely is a sense of nostalgia and almost just like this familiarity, like it's something that is familiar and therefore comforting. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I really appreciate it. For you personally, has this grief stripped away things like distractions, you know, maybe cares that seemed important at one time but just don't seem important anymore? Has this grief that you've gone through stripped away those things in a way that has felt clarifying and maybe clearing in some way for you?

[ 00:53:29,623 ]That is a wonderful way to describe it. I would say 1,000% yes. And it's things that I wouldn't have expected in some cases and things that I would have otherwise. So really, my daughter's death was the launching-off point of me being able to work from home. And I've been able to work from home since I was pregnant with our son, so for 12 years now. And just, I call myself unhirable because I'm not sure if I could return to the corporate world and just give up this precious time with my family. I cook them two hot meals a day. Like, they're on their own for lunch, but we have breakfast at like 8:30 in the morning, you know, and it's coffee cake or pancakes and sausage.

[ 00:54:20,592 ]Like, it's all the cool stuff; we don't do no cereal, you know? And so it's just things like that. Like, I've been able to prioritize not only our physical health as much as I can, but our mental health. Like, I'm kind of that woo-woo parent where I'm like, no, wait a minute, let's talk about this. Or, you know, did you pray about that before you acted on that kind of thing? And it just feels like a more natural pace, whereas before that was as structured as it was and scheduled as it was because you wake up at 6:30, you get your kids on the bus at 7:00, you're on the road by 7:30, you're at work by 8:00, you know, you take your lunch break at noon, like everything, boom, boom, boom, has its schedule, has its structure.

[ 00:55:12,593 ]And we are structured here at home, but it just feels like such a more natural process. And that, being able to do that has just changed, changed so much, like I really feel like it's part of my. Microphone's slapping, it's part of my healing process emotionally. Just being able, life is so short, and I know this because I literally delivered death. Am I afraid to die? Absolutely not. I see death completely different from how I used to. But I realize that life is so precious and so short, and if we can't live it enjoying it, then we are really screwing ourselves over. Yeah, you know what's funny? I was thinking, when you were talking, you were like, I'm not hireable. When you go to LinkedIn, you know how you look at people's profiles and stuff?

[ 00:56:12,972 ]You'll say, hashtag open to work. Yours is gonna be hashtag unhireable. Yeah, hashtag, you probably don't want me to work for you. Yeah, you don't want me to work for you. God bless my boss. He is a wonderful, wonderful man, and I'm so grateful for him if he ever listens to this. I do a good job for you, thank you, and amen. Facts, love that. So, you know, I'm sorry to bring this back up again, but just the image of you talking about your forearms stinging and hurting and feeling like that, the missing weight of your child was there or should have been there. Now that several years have passed, when you remember this situation with your daughter or when you just remember her, what does your body feel now?

[ 00:57:03,232 ]I would say that there is a central weight in my chest, and I'll tell you, even still, April is so hard for me, the month of April. I went into, she was due, I think, April 30th, I wanna say. I went into labor April 9th. I delivered her 16 minutes after midnight on April 10th. So the whole month of April is just crazy for me. And it's almost like the body remembers, like as soon as April 1st gets here, I can feel the anxiety and tension. There was one Easter Sunday, just a couple of years ago, that was her birthday. Her birthday was on Easter Sunday. I could not stand on my feet in church that morning. I collapsed; I wept into the chair in front of me.

[ 00:57:55,972 ]Did people understand and know what was going on? Maybe a couple of them did, but otherwise, they were like, man, Easter really means something to this lady here. But it's just, I don't know if it's so much a feeling, except for that weight in my chest. And I think that's just maybe trying to process through the emotions I know that are coming, like I'm gonna ball, I'm gonna cry. And so maybe it just sits there for a minute. But it's just like, am I in a safe space? Am I in a space where I can let it all out? Because my face is about to ugly cry. I don't soap opera cry, I ugly cry for sure, and it's about to take place right now.

[ 00:58:42,513 ]So I think it's mostly that question, like do I need to leave and go somewhere where I can just fall apart? Yeah. Well, as we wrap up this podcast today, I want to thank you again for all the things that you have shared. And I'm sorry we didn't get into the homesteading and the homeschooling and things like that, but we stay tuned for part two, everybody. We most definitely will have a part two for sure. And, um, so I've got a couple of questions for you as we close out this podcast today. The first one is how has walking through literally the valley of death changed how you live today? Yeah, I would say it has given me a greater appreciation for life itself and for the fact that I believe the Lord says he came to give us life and abundantly so.

[ 00:59:35,499 ]And it has given me so much appreciation and a fresh perspective on that. And also, it puts new me, it's such a cliché phrase, like don't sweat the small stuff or corporate speak might be like less major in the majors, you know, kind of thing. We're not going to minor in the minors. Just life is so fleeting and there is so much that can and will go wrong, but it's all in how you approach working through it because you're going to have to work through it. You can't go around it. You can't go above or below it. You have to go through it, and I think it's all about how we do that, how we hold ourselves to walk through it, and it can make us or break us.

[ 01:00:20,599 ]And I've already been broken. I would rather it make me instead. Yeah, most definitely. Well, as a Christian person, most Christians that I know of have sometimes varying views of what eternity looks like, but in some form or fashion, life continues on. And so for you, what does eternity mean to you now, especially as it relates to your daughter and your relationship? Yeah, so my view is she's got a head start on it from, from us, and I really struggled with living. I think it wasn't that I wanted to die, but I really wasn't motivated to live. But every day, Nikki, I would tell myself I'm one day closer to seeing Harlan. I made it one more week. I'm one week closer. I'm one year closer, like 13 years now.

[ 01:01:13,225 ]I'm 13 years closer to seeing Harlan. But it's not just about her. I'm excited and expectant, anticipating all of the joy and fulfillment we will get to experience together, not separate but together. And I believe that when she, when her heart stopped beating, she was delivered straight into the arms of Jesus. And I believe that story will be the same for me when my heart stops beating. And so I'm not afraid of that day I look forward to that day, and I think it will just be beyond anything we can hope or imagine. Yeah, I think it's a great place to conclude. So I always ask the guests that come on the Gentle Year a question at the end, and it's totally open to interpretation, but it's the same question for every guest.

[ 01:02:03,998 ]And the question is, what do you believe is the most important education that a child could ever receive? I love this question, first of all, and I'm so glad that you asked it because I think one of the coolest things about your podcast is the variations on this answer at the end of every episode. The most important thing educational-wise for a kid, and I say this as a homeschool mom, is teaching our children that they are completely capable. If, you know, if they struggle in a certain subject, like my son, it's math is his nemesis right now, right? But he's so capable; he just doesn't want to do it. So then the onus becomes on me: how can I make this more enjoyable for him?

[ 01:02:59,345 ]How can I make this so it's not something that he suffers through, but something that he shows himself he's capable of doing because he's the one that needs to believe it. I already know it; he needs to believe it. And so it's the coolest thing for me to be able to sit across my kitchen table and see, I mean, it's not cool to see your child struggling, but when I see my child struggling, then my creative artistic little juices start flowing of how can I create an experience for him where he will get this. Cause that's my favorite thing, seeing that light flick on in their heads where he will get this and may even have fun doing it. But the most important thing he learns is that he is completely capable.

[ 01:03:45,378 ]He can solve problems. He can come up with creative solutions. He can go about this maybe a little different way than he thought he had to do it. Or my daughter, she can do this. That is the most critical thing because I'll tell you, I pray they never go through any hardship that we've been through, but I know they will face hard times. And what is it going to matter if he knows the quadratic equations or if she remembers what the inside of a frog looks like? Probably not. But what is going to matter the most is that they know and believe they are capable of solving problems. So that's my answer for you. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And you're right. All the answers are varied, but so, so important.

[ 01:04:33,556 ]All of it. It really is. I mean, you know what, you know what I'm going to say? That's a trick question because all of these answers are exactly what we need. So, but yes, about, oh my gosh, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming on this podcast today. And I want to let the listeners know where they can find you. Obviously, I've invited you to the Facebook group, The Gentle Year. You are more than welcome to be in that community and also share your stories and participate fully just as every other guest is on this show. But as far as like your website and your resources and your support, where do people find you? I'm glad you asked because honestly, as we were talking, I forgot all about that.

[ 01:05:10,198 ]I know, right? Please come find me You can find me at themotherhoodexperience. com. That is the website. If you go to themotherhoodexperience. com forward slash learn more, that is where you will get tied into that weekly community with me. You can listen to the Motherhood Experience podcast, wherever you stream podcasts. You can also watch on YouTube. We do have a video version as well. And of course, follow me on Instagram at underscore the motherhood experience. I'm so pleased to meet you and chat with you about all things motherhood. Absolutely. And I went to your Instagram today; it is so fascinating. And I love what you're doing, especially as a one-woman show, because I know how that feels. What you're doing is really great, so thank you so much for all that you do for the world and all, all the wonderful gifts and blessings that God is using you to fulfill in this life. So thank you.