Raising a Child Who Doesn’t Respond to the Rules | Robert Delena (Part 2)

In this continuation of The Gentle Year, we return to Robert and Ryan’s story and take a closer look at how children are supported when their behavior doesn’t align with expectations at home or in school.

Robert reflects on years of navigating diagnoses, school placements, physical restraint, and medication. With time and distance, he shares what he understands now about those decisions, the patterns that repeated, and the moments that shaped his son’s path.

This episode explores:

• Early behavioral diagnoses and how they influence long-term outcomes
• The role of school systems in shaping student behavior and identity
• The impact of physical restraint and behavior management strategies
• Medication, side effects, and decision-making over time
• The importance of flexibility in how children learn and process information

The conversation also looks at how boys are often socialized, how that influences behavior, and how it connects to the types of responses adults rely on when challenges arise.

As Ryan grows into adulthood, his story offers a perspective on independence, identity, and finding a path that aligns with who he is.

This episode invites parents to reflect on how they interpret behavior, how they make decisions under pressure, and what it means to support a child over time. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome back to The Gentle Year. The intent and aim of all of these conversations is to promote thoughtful and caring dialogue, not one parenting style over another. Last episode, Robert Delena left us with one lingering thought. If he didn't respond in the way that society, the schools, or even the doctors wanted, Ryan would end up in the hospital or dead. At the time, cracking down on his son seemed like the most logical solution. Ryan wasn't listening to anyone. And in today's world, that can certainly cause situations to escalate fast. Let's continue this conversation with Robert. There's some truth to that statement, but you know, particularly for boys, that seems to be very common for boys to hear. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that. Because even Steve Harvey says it. Steve Harvey says that boys either end up hospitalized in jail or in the grave.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes as educators and in doctors, you know, they're forecasting that that that 18, 20-year-old version of Ryan. But but you know, one thing I Ryan was four when a lot of these diagnoses came down. Five. I mean, he was so young. And to and to look at a kid who just was curious and wouldn't listen and say that this is gonna be a life change, this is gonna alter everything. He's gonna be this, you know, really threatening person. You know, I just think there was a moment in time, you know, prior to say 10 years old, where if they had just been creative and said, all right, we've gotta, we know this kid is he's driven by certain things. And if we can just incorporate that into the classroom and say, all right, Ryan, you know, you want to, you know, go check out the HVAC system of the school, that would be like his dream, right? To go look at those, he loved big machines. You know, you've got to sit there and color with these other kids for a while, you know. And I just I wish they had tried that. And, you know, my wife and I disagree on this point, honestly. We we uh even after the book came out, and and I it it's easy for me to go back, I think, and say, these were the mistakes we made, these are the threads. If I just pulled differently, I think things would have gone differently. And you know, and and I think her opinion is he was it he was so bad and he wouldn't listen that there really wasn't a home for him in the beginning. You know, they we he really was pushed into these therapeutic schools appropriately. Once we got there, the way they handled it was was was over the top. And I think had we picked a different one or if there was there was a different approach, a lighter touch, it might have turned out okay. I mean, but I I just I disagree. I just I think that any anytime he was, you know, touched or handled, you know, it really it set the tone, I think, that that's the way grown-ups force you to make, you know, your your behavior, modulate your behavior. They use force. And I think that's a male thing, a male-dominated thing. You know, and I I found as you know, as when I was we were restraining them at home for some period of time, the school trained us. And I remember getting in these physical confrontations with him where that was what I was supposed to do. And and I remember that feeling, like my heart would raid, my blood pressure. I was gonna win this wrestling match with this five, six-year-old kid. And it just, and I never and you leave that and think, what did that accomplish? Like, I don't really get uh, you know, I'm just it's almost like I'm breaking him, like, you know, the old the old theory behind spanking really was what, you know, like the kid doesn't want to get spanked, so the the next time the kid will won't be won't, you know, we'll won't uh you know, won't do that to make the bad the bad choice. But you know, in the moment, it doesn't change your behavior, you know, it's it's it's it's it's it's you know it's just a punishment, right? It's uh I I don't know. It's I wish that we had we had had an option, a create more creative option. I mean, we we debated homeschool, I mean, at the time, but he was so social. It just I felt like he was gonna miss out on, you know, the opportunities to really be around the other kids. And that's where his deficit seemed to lie. So like if we took him out of that and now he's alone all day, how is he gonna benefit? So we really didn't have a lot of options. And and I'd like to think things have gotten better. I I don't know. I mean, I don't know if you know there's a there's a model for a school that will take these kids who are, you know, spectrum-y, I'll say, you know, or different and and and you know, find ways to to to you know kind of play to their strengths. But I don't know. I I think it's still it's still a tougher environment. When it's behavioral, right? If your kid is developmentally delayed or has you know some deficits, I I I did see kids that really benefited from the therapeutic schools um because they weren't physical. They weren't Ryan was was, you know, it was really it came down to his behaviors, and and he was the kid who got restrained five, six, seven, ten times a day.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Let's break down Robert's commentary with a few key statistics. First, approximately 8% of children ages 3 to 17 have diagnosed behavior disorders, with higher risk for males who are twice as likely to develop conduct disorders. For children under five, studies indicate up to 37.7% are at risk of behavioral problems. Key indicators include persistent defiance, extreme tantrums, and aggression. With this in mind, let's consider three pertinent questions. First, Robert described physical restraint as a common response at the time. How has the approach to managing high-risk behaviors in children evolved since the late 1990s and early 2000s? And what would likely be different for a child like Ryan today? Question two. Robert also stated that his wife saw the situation very differently. Why, in your opinion, do you think that Robert and his wife were so misaligned? And how would you have felt as the spouse in this situation? And before releasing question three, Robert alluded to an interesting point: males, restriction, and physical dominance. I have a report in front of me published by the National Library of Medicine. The report is titled, The Socialization of Boys and Men in the Modern Era: An Evolutionary Mismatch. And the summary of this report states, male children are frequently socialized towards traditional masculine norms. So I'll repeat, male children are frequently socialized toward traditional masculine norms, emphasizing independence, emotional restriction, and risk taking. This often leads to increased dominance, aggression, and gender-type behaviors when interacting with same-gender peers. Research indicates this socialization contributes to higher rates of substance use and fewer health-seeking behaviors in males. The report also shares developmental difficulties of boys and men, listing oppositional defiance disorder and conduct disorders, substance use disorders, physical and mental health. And under this section, it states males who are socialized to internalize emotions and adhere to traditional masculine gender norms tend to have a variety of maladaptive physical and mental health outcomes, including risk taking, impulsivity, anger, and aggression, as well as heart disease, depression, and premature death. To conclude, it also says we then suggest that the qualities that have been advantageous for men and their families in our earlier evolution, but that are often no longer functional in modern society and are a source of these problems. Question three.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

And then the problem was once he went to that school, so then he had this litany of restraints in his record. And then when we went back to our public school and said, hey, this was a mistake. We shouldn't have done this. Can you just take him back now? And you know, and they would look at his record and say, no, we can't take this kid back. He's restrained, you know, a thousand times this year. Um, he's dangerous. And it was almost like he had a criminal record. And it was kind of perverse in a way because uh, you know, they put him there, you know, they put him in this environment and this environment where he was they were allowed to restrain him. It took till his junior year of high school, and all along the way, I'm having the same argument with this school every year at these meetings saying, if you put him in an environment where he can't be restrained or won't, you know, he won't allow it, he knows in his mind that's off the table. You're you're gonna see a different kid. He's acting this way because he knows the end of the at the end of the day, it's you know, if he doesn't run out of the school or hide in a tree, he's gonna end up on the floor. And they did they couldn't see past that. And you know, you I mean, I don't know what your town is like, but there's a certain amount of bureaucracy that you deal with. And everybody in that chain has their role, right? They have this job and liability prevention. And I'm a lawyer or kind of a lawyer, I could say this, that's that drives everything. Everybody's afraid of being sued. Yes. And there was always a story along the way of a kid who did something bad, and they're they're so mindful of that that there's there's there's not a lot of creativity in the system. There's not a lot of willingness to take a risk on a kid because, you know, God forbid he did hurt somebody. And I, you know, and I knew he wouldn't. You know, he wasn't a violent kid. I always would say to them in these meetings, he's gonna hurt himself. Like he, if anything, you know, that's that's my biggest fear is that he's so he's in such a dark place, such a dark hole that, you know, he's gonna one day look and say, there's no way out of this hole, and he's gonna end up, you know, committing suicide. It's not gonna be that he hurts anybody else. And so it was it was it was a hard time as a parent. And I'll introduce this topic just the medication started to come, you know, pretty quickly in the game. And and you know, they always start with the the easy ones, you know, they sort of start with the the the Ritalin for the ADHD type kids. And for Ryan, it it that acted like you know four cups of coffee. It was the it did not work, it was the opposite effect. And then from there you end up, you know, sort of on the SSRIs, the Prozac class of drugs. And then from there you end up on in the antipsychotics. And he was on, you know, ceroquil and lamictal and you know, some of these really heavy ones that have a real, you know, the side effects of your on your body. You know, he gained a ton of weight, his cholesterol was off the charts. And, you know, to what benefit, I never really knew. You know, it it just it and I was a guy who was like, I'm I'll never medicate you know my kids. And then, you know, incrementally, we would just say yes to one, and and then you'd say yes to a higher dose, and then you'd say yes to a second one, and a second higher dose, and a third one. Oh, that one's not working, take that out, put this one in. And, you know, it's like one one day he was on three, you know, three antipsychotics or two antipsychotics and an antidepressant. And he was like 11, 12 years old. It it kept him from going through puberty. Like he wasn't going through puberty because his body was so messed up. And we had a it's you know, it's in the book. We we through through just really blind luck, really, the psychiatrist that was working with him and prescribing moved to Seattle and left. And we we replaced her with this, with this, this, this guy who was recommended. And from the first meeting we had with him, he just looked at the meds and was just horrified. And he was one of these doctors who really drilled down on the side effects. And I remember him having a very frank conversation with us saying, you know, does Ryan need these medications to live? And I said, What do you mean? He said, If we if Ryan didn't take these medicines, would he kill himself? And I said, I don't think so. No. He said, Well, why well you're killing him with these meds? You know, ultimately his life is going to be shorter because of the side effects, even if it's just weight gain and and and you know, elevation and your blood pressure and and you know your your cholesterol. And you know, so I think there's a there's a a world where these meds need to exist, and there are people who who wouldn't last another day if not for them. They, you know, they they would do something terrible.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

He wouldn't fit that profile, especially at 12, 13, you know, and and we let that happen. And and and again, I think it goes back to that we wanted to fix them, right? We wanted to like this magic pill was gonna make him be better. And so um when the reason I knew that what my wife didn't know was when we would travel a lot, I would half the time I would forget to give them the medications. We were skiing, we'd get out the door early, and I would forget. And I never saw a difference in them if I forgot. So I I was pretty confident if we stripped away some of the meds that you know, we were gonna end up with a a pretty, you know, the pretty typical kid who would still make some bad choices and be some of the difficult at times.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Let's examine this situation a little more closely with three questions. Question one. Robert obviously looks back on this situation with a lot more clarity. But what do you think he understands differently now than he did back then? Question two. The patterns seem to repeat year after year, from his early childhood and into high school, with a lot of the same meetings with the administrators and teachers. What do you think keeps a parent trapped in that type of cycle, even when things really aren't changing? Question three. Robert described two very different psychiatrists, one who continued prescribing medications, and another who stepped back and questioned whether they were even necessary at all. In a case like Ryan's, where side effects were significant, what do you believe should trigger a deeper reevaluation of a child's treatment plan? Kind of just wondering, in your opinion, if you think that schools and the environment that we're putting kids in is exacerbating these problems.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

I think so. I mean, I I think especially in in a public school, and we and we live in a very, you know, a town that's kind of you know on the higher end, I would say, and and the the parents are all crazy and everybody wants their kid to be successful. Um so there's a lot of academic pressure, but there's also a lot of social pressure. There's a lot of team sports that that are thriving. And Ryan, you know, didn't fit any of that really. So it was it would have been a it was a harder model for him. So I think, you know, uh any kind of private school where the the numbers are smaller and the mission is different, I think would be a blessing. You know, and in some ways, Ryan would have done better, even if we kept him on the private school track and sent him to a traditional private school, which would have had academic pressure and it would have had some of that team sports stuff as for sure. But if there were 12 kids in the class instead of 30, I think, you know, he might have gotten a little more individual attention and schools would have been more creative. You know, I I I noticed early on, Ryan he could he can hear things once and and he'll internalize them and remember them forever. And in, you know, but he would he he had trouble like taking words off the page and then regurgitating it in the traditional format of, you know, he so he wasn't a he didn't love reading. He would just see the the length of the book. And this is way before, you know, the phone and and even audio books. And I would find these books that I could get on tape, you know, and and all of the classics, right, that I knew he would have to read in high school. And he loved them, he loved listening to them, you know. But if I had said to him, you know, you know, here's the Odyssey, like he never would have read, you know, the Odyssey. He could he would have looked at the 500 word pages and and thrown it back in my face. But you know, to listen to it, he he got it. And so if the school was like that, and and a teacher could look at those 12 kids and say, all right, Ryan's really struggling with reading, you know, let me try something creative, let me try something else. You know, then I think it could work. You know, I just think the public model, and it's particularly here, and I'm sure Virginia's like this too. They have this, we we we used to have this thing called the MCAST, this like test that they had to pass in order to graduate. And in and the schools got knocked if their MCAS, you know, scores were low. And that became that they were just obsessed with the MCAST. That's all they cared about. And and even for the kids that were the quote unquote special needs kid, when Ryan was in these therapeutic schools, they had to give them the MCAS as well. And so and that became an obsession even for them. And they, you know, they had a lot of ways to cheat because they could have a scribe and they could have somebody sit next to them and and really force them to just answer the questions. Um but I think the model is it's just it just doesn't lend itself to creativity, like I said.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Robert was able to identify something as simple but impactful as switching from reading books to listening to audio versions. So, in your opinion, what does this say about how flexible or inflexible schools are in meeting students where they actually are? Robert has stated on many occasions that he wished that schools were more creative in supporting children like Ryan. In your opinion, what does creativity in terms of supporting a child actually look like in practice? And why is it so challenging to implement in schools? Do you think that the expectation that you had of schools was too high? Because if you know what schools do, you know that schools do not fit your son's um unique situation. It it doesn't like I'm just playing devil's advocate here for a second. I know that if it were me as a teacher and someone were a student like your son, maybe were was in my class, and the parents were coming to me expecting me to come up with a solution for this very complex issue, that would that would be a lot on me. I I'm not saying I couldn't do it, but that would be a lot. And I also don't think that the solutions that I would come up with would be well received by the parents or by the school. So, really then the solution wouldn't be anything. Um, so do you think that schools sometimes have the onus of responsibility to do what parents ought to be doing?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Well, I mean, that's a really good question. Because I think you start, we started out with an expectation that clearly Ryan was gonna go to college. Of course, he's gonna go to college, or you know, he's he's there's our kid, but he's gonna go to college. And so school was is a vehicle toward getting into college, right? That's what we that's what you use it for. At some point, we we we gave up on that dream that he would go to college. And it really wasn't a dream. Just the reality of it was he doesn't really need to go. He's probably gonna work in the outdoors. Why does he need to go to college? And then it became well, he's gonna at least get a high school diploma, right? He's gotta at least get to that point. So so the the requirement was just to have him finish, right? We just needed him to finish. I I didn't care what he learned in in the building. I just needed him. I just thought without a high school diploma, his life was gonna be harder. There was a he he talks about this in the book. Um in the book we write separately. I write my version, he writes his version, and which which and I learned a lot in about his about his life, really, that I didn't know in the way he wrote. He at one point talked to his therapist about dropping out, uh, dropping out of high school, because they he'd given up hope that he would ever get back to public and he was still being restrained. This was like freshman or sophomore year of high school, and he was just gonna get a GED. And at the time, I think if he had talked to me about that, I probably would have said, fine. Like, what do I care whether as long as you get this technically end of this, it's finished, I don't care how you get there. You know, I I think you'll do okay socially in high school. I think you might meet people, make friends. You'll deny yourself that. But uh, you know, I think at the as long as he he met that final requirement. Ironically, Ryan ends up going to college and he when he went to a place that had an outdoor education degree. And and and some of these colleges have smartened up, I think, to say not every kid is gonna be an investment bank or a doctor or a lawyer or a teacher. We're gonna kind of find these programs that are gonna draw in kids and we'll have the market cornered, you know. And so these schools in Vermont and New Hampshire, and you find them in Colorado, have started to say there's a whole bunch of kids out there who want to be rock climbing guides and ski guides and want to work in the hotel industry or work at ski resorts, and we're gonna craft a degree around that. Now, if you took that model and put it into high schools or even into grade schools and said, not every kid here wants to be a doctor or wants, you know, is some of these kids are gonna be computer programmers or work in AI or whatever. Let's let's look at the future and and let's let's make a pathway for them, you know. And I think it would be harder in the first, second, third grade, obviously. But as you get closer to high school, I think, you know, making kids just learn material so they can do well on the SATs or or kind of check this box because your your state has said you've got to take this test at the end. And, you know, the old days went trade schools, but I I mean I'm 57, right? So, you know, there were plenty of kids who went through the wood shop and the autobotto shop. And, you know, there were the you know, those back then it was all women who who were doing sort of more of the home economics kind of things that went on to great careers and probably thrived. And they just, you know, weren't kids that could sit, you know, at a desk all day and learn about history and and algebra. And geometry, and you know, you'd stick them down in the woodshop and they'd come out and make something beautiful. And they probably are contractors now and made all kinds of money and have been successful. At some point, that became there was a stigma associated with that because those those kids weren't going to go to college and they were viewed as less than, right? And I think that that the mark the market has really changed on that. I'd like to think it has.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Let's examine this a little further with three questions. Question one. Robert's definition of success changed. From dreaming that his son would one day attend Harvard to now hoping and praying that he would simply finish high school? What do you believe Robert had to re-examine about himself to create the space his son needed to thrive? Question two. Robert alluded to the fact that he did not know how his son felt about potentially dropping out of high school until they started writing the book together. What might have been the driving reason that Ryan kept this information to himself? Question three. What does it look like when a parent shows a child that they value their unique gifts and talents in the same way that they might value a four-year degree? So, in your opinion, what do you believe is the minimum a parent must provide for a child to succeed?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

You know, I think you know, safety and security is the minimum, right? And by safety and security, it's you know that there's a there's a comfort in knowing that there's a roof over your head and there's fruit on the table. But there's also I think a you know, a the security in if I make a mistake, I'll be forgiven, you know, and and you know, I when Ryan and I were at a point where he distrusted all adults, right? And he and rightfully so, because in his mind, adults were the people that threw you on the floor. And and I was one of those people for a while who did the same thing because I was told that that's why I was I was gonna fix them. And so, you know, I you know, I think he started to look at me as one of them. And I needed to separate myself out and and say, I'll always there's nothing you can do. You know, if you you know, if you come home with a body in the trunk, I'm gonna say, where are the shovels? Like it's I'm not like I will never, I'll always be on your side. Like it doesn't matter what you're doing. That's an extreme example, obviously. But you know, for him to just sit register and say, you know, this this guy, no matter what I do, will always forgive me. And and so I I think that that was uh for him, he just needed to trust again. And I and I and I hope that he we got there. You know, the the security and the safety part is just a baseline, though. You know, I at the end of the day, you know, Ryan and I had a funny conversation. We were traveling on this last ski trip, and and he said, Dad, no matter what you tell me, I'm always gonna think it's wrong. It doesn't matter what it is. I always think you, you know, you're you don't know what you're talking about. He said, Sometimes after the fact I realize you do, but in the moment, I'm gonna always do the opposite. And I said, you know what? I gotta respect it. At least he's honest. I probably felt the same way about when my dad spoke. I thought he was a dummy too. But yeah, um, you know, I I at least I've given him room to be able to say that to me and to say, you know, we may not always agree on everything, but I trust you. You'll you'll be there when the chips are down. And I think that's that's the important part. And I lost it. I lost that with the decisions I made to have people, you know, restrain and isolate him. And that's hard. That was that was hard to live with, you know, that I the most basic need or you know, that he needed as a child. I I surrendered that to other people because I thought they were gonna do a better job with them than I could do. And and you know, when when parents ask me, I get asked a lot now about, you know, my son has this, I mean, uh, what would you do? Or I get emails out of the blue, you know, people read the book. You know, I I the first thing I tell them is, you know your kid better than anybody. You know, I don't care how somebody has 50 degrees, they're they're the leading expert, they've written 20 books. It doesn't matter. It's like they're not there every single moment of the day like you are. And you've got to trust your instincts to you know to parent your your child a certain way. I mean, there are kids, I mean I coached a lot, so I mean, there are kids that you you know you you can be tough with. They don't think like they thrive on it. You can you can you know challenge them and you know you can be better, you know. And then there are kids who just you have to always heap positive praise on them. They they they they just don't they don't exist in that negative environment, you know. And I think as parents, you can have two kids, you know, my son and daughter, they're the exact opposites in a lot of ways. But I know that because I'm there every day. There's no model book on how to raise the two of them, they're completely different, you know, and so you gotta sort of trust your instincts on these things.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, how old is Ryan?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Ryan is now almost 25. He'll be 25 in May. Oh wow, what's he doing? So he is a professional rock climbing guide. He's made he's made it to that point. Um, he's almost there on the ski guide track. The ski guide track is a little longer because there's a lot of avalanche education, and he's he's knocked through some of that. He's got one more uh big course left. Uh, but he did graduate college, he graduated in this outdoor education program. Um he rock glides uh rock guides in Acadia, Maine, which is a really beautiful place, a national park. Um a lot of the rock climbing is right on the ocean. And he's he's lives in a van and he and he's up in Maine and he's doing that. And then the ski guiding, he sort of bumps around, does a lot of it in New Hampshire where uh the better mountains are. And um, you know, ultimately I think he'll settle in New Hampshire. But um I always thought maybe he'd end up out west because the skiing is a lot better out west. But uh, but he's he's doing well. He he he makes um enough money, I think, to to live the way he lives, which uh is pretty simply, you know. I mean, you know, we finance a lot of the big purchases like the van, but you know, ultimately, you know, he he doesn't require a lot. You know, he uh as he describes it, he needs everything that he owns to be right in one room in front of him. It's too confusing and he loses stuff. Uh he needs everything to just be in that van. So um it's it's it's the way he the way he operates is is is very simple. And uh luckily, you know, he's live he's carved out a life that that will that will you know sort of adhere to that. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't need you know to to have a label on his clothes or fancy things, or it he just he wants to just live very simply. He loves the outdoors. The outdoors were his ticket, I think, to freedom. And he and he also wants other people to have that experience. So his his goal is to bring people safely into you know different different backcountry ski areas and and and rock climbs and and you know kind of have that same moment and that he had where he's challenged, it's hard, but it's beautiful, you know, and I and I and you know I I sort of had that too. Uh even on our worst ski day, or we were arguing, or it was cold, or you know, the conditions weren't great, or I don't know, I'd have that moment where I'd look around and be like, you know, this is pretty awesome. Like, look how beautiful this is. Like, I I should probably, you know, for myself, like take a second here and say, like, all right, this is this is something I should hold on to before I close my eyes tonight. Like, this this was a this was a good moment. So he he has those moments all day long, and I think he wants us who live in the regular world and sit in cubes and offices and you know, you know, line at the bank or whatever. Let's to take a breath and say, like, life's pretty great.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Yeah. Is he the same person that you remember as a child? But is he just, or is he it has he has he grown? Has he evolved? Is he changed? Is he different now, or is he just the same person but in the right environment?

SPEAKER_01 30:07

So batteries running low. So that's a really good question. I in a lot of ways, he's exactly the same. He always was a very stubborn kid who, you know, he was was smart and he but he was opinionated and he, you know, he he just didn't listen to authority. I don't think that's changed at all. I think it's his natural inclination to question authority and to and to do it his own way. I I have seen a lot of growth um with his peers and with and with related, he has a girlfriend and in relationships, and all the things they said, and they were sometimes dogmatic about it, like, you know, Ryan will never have relationships. So Ryan can't have friendships. Because from his perspective, you know, like he never, you know, oh, they would say, you know, your hope should be that he has one friend, if he could just find one friend. And you know, you know, but you know, there are when I see him with his girlfriend, and and and there must be times when he's hard. You know, he does have tunnel vision, he does get locked into things, and he's just fixated on, you know, he he does a lot of these, he does content for YouTube. So he'll he'll spend hours and hours and hours video um editing, right? And he really wants them to be perfect. And I know in those moments, if she's talking to him, he's not listening to a word she says because he doesn't listen to a word I say. I know. So yeah, is he challenging? Yeah, I'm sure. But he also has those moments where he recognizes that he he he has been absent and he he didn't listen. And he's now he's gotta, you know, show some empathy or say, you know, I'm sorry, I wasn't there, I'm I'm back now, I'm here, you know. And and he's he's always critical and he's and he's reflecting more on his behavior and things I think they thought that he would never be able to do. So he does appreciate that he isn't perfect and and and that he can make strides to you know be more aware of people's feelings. And I and I think that that's that's what he's come a long way. And then a lot of that was just pure pressure, you know, pressure in a weird way, but just being in groups, you know, you know, a lot of these therapeutic schools, the kids were so damaged and they were all together, and they really, you know, they they they fed off each other's, you know, damage in a lot of ways. And a lot of these kids came were from the foster care system, and not not not on I'm not saying a knock on the foster care system, but they went through just awful things to to be where they were at all. Like just life just happened to them in a way that that didn't happen to Ryan. And and and and I think those kids, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, were you know, were indicative, I think, of what was under the surface of the kids that we see now, right? The kids that are the social media is causing them to have these these really skewed versions of themselves and insecurities and and sadness, really sadness. The kids in foster care, it was on their face. Like you would see it. Like life had been awful to them. They're sad. And so, in some ways, I think Ryan was able to pick up on that a little more simply, you know, it in to know that you know, everybody comes into a situation with a backstory, right? There are there there are certain things that have happened to them which will impact the way they behave. And I think he learned a lot of those lessons, you know, in in those schools. And he's able, I think, to pick up on cues that I I never I never thought he would, you know, the the real subtle stuff that that you know sometimes, you know, people do miss, you know, especially if if they are always looking down at their own phone or wrapped up in their own head. Um, and so I'd say he's grown a lot. I really I do see a lot of growth. Um, you know, back in the old days, we thought he won't understand sarcasm, he won't understand the the sort of nuances. You know, that that did not prove to be true. I mean, he's very funny and witty at times. And, you know, he can he he doesn't I'm very sarcastic, sarcastic, and I it's my natural state. He's not gonna be that guy. You know, I mean, I walk in a room, I'm I'm immediately, you know, I'm I'm who do I gotta see? Who am I gonna talk to? I haven't spent enough time with this person. I gotta leave, you know, I gotta leave with a good conversation with that person. I'm very aware of the way I'm being perceived the whole time. He's not that guy. It's really, you know, and I would look at him and say, what a relief. What a the freedom to not give a crap what anybody thinks about him. He his hair, he doesn't cut it, it's like out to here, it sticks up in 50 different directions. He never matches, his clothes are a mess. He doesn't care. It's freeing. I wish I could be that way. You know, in some ways I envy him. Um, but what I had to learn was to stop caring. Like, and he's not gonna comb his hair. No matter how many times I suggest that he comb his hair, he's not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of sort of the great geniuses of old that we all know about, you know. They really did know who they were. They knew what they were going after, and they went after it with as if their goal in life was it was so focused. It was so, it was just one focus, one intention, one goal, one mindset. And everything that they did was in harmony with that purpose. And some of the more modern people, like I think of, of course, you think of Elon Musk, and then you may think of I'm a sports person, so Kobe Bryant, you know, I think of people like that. These are people that are absolutely, absolutely in the 1% of their fields, crafts, whatever it is. And they are so incredibly rare that there's no system. There's absolutely no system that any of us could ever create that they could be contained in or function in, because they function totally outside of any kind of a realm that, you know, the rest of us, 99% uh live in. And that's why I think school didn't work for many people. I think that's why school doesn't work. I think that these are the people, depending on, you know, who they are and what they want out of life. But I think that these type of people, these 1% geniuses in their specific fields, they're not the ones that can function in the system, but they're the ones sometimes who create and design the systems for everybody else. And it's just that's just definitely what I what I personally think. But from your perspective, and I'm thinking about the parents who might be listening to this show and they may be struggling with a similar situation. In your opinion, what's the difference between a child who behaves well and a child who actually is well? Before Robert answers that question, let's take a moment to consider some information provided by Pew Research. Here's the breakdown of young adults who say that they go to their parents at least sometimes for the following advice. 68% say that they turn to their parents at least sometimes regarding their financial situation, 67% regarding their career or job situation, 66% say that they sometimes turn to their parents regarding parenting their own children, and 62% say that they sometimes will go to their parents regarding their physical health. However, statistics regarding whether young adults go to their parents for advice on romantic relationships, friendships, and their mental health are quite different. According to Pew Research, it states that 66% of young adults say that they rarely or never go to their parents for advice around their romantic relationships. 56% say that they do not or rarely go to their parents for advice around relationships with their spouse or their partners. 54% say that they rarely or never go to their parents for advice about friendships. And 53% say that they rarely or never go to their parents for advice regarding their mental health. I'll leave you with one question before we get back to Robert's interview. Why do you think that young adults are more likely to ask their parents about money or jobs, but not about their emotional lives?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

That's a hard one. I think it it it would depend on where they were, you know, age-wise, I think. I think in the beginning you have to have a lot of latitude, right? I think there are kids, you know, especially boys, like they can't help but tackle each other or run into each other or you know, I don't know, touch things. Like you tell them not to touch things. You know, I think if somebody's doing that in the eighth grade, you know, that then they're probably there is probably something that they're trying to tell you, right? That there is, you know, somewhere sadness or an anger that was caused by something, right? And you know, I used to think it was wiring. Uh Ryan was just wired different. Oh, that kid's just wired different. And you know, but aren't we all, you know, I I think that for most of us the the the need to fit in, right? And to follow direction and orders and receive adult praise is enough to keep us in line. Then there's a then there are kids who who aren't driven by that. And Ryan wasn't, he didn't care. And I think then you have to figure out why. You know, I Ryan never targeted anybody. I never saw him pick on anybody, I never saw him hurt anybody. He had a sister and they would fight, I mean, you know, like siblings, but uh, you know, he never really did that to any other kid in a school setting. I think if if you're seeing that kind of behavior, um, and we saw that in some of the kids in the therapeutic schools. Again, a lot of these kids had come out of you know, violent homes, right? And so they were, they were, they they were prone to, I think, to to use violence, I think, to get what they wanted. And not their fault. They just that was just the environment they were raised in. I think that's that's that's a telltale sign. Um, I think we're too quick to medicate. I I will warn parents of that, especially in these therapeutic schools. You know, cerequel and these, you know, these drugs will make your kid very docile, right? And it's a lot easier for the teacher when the kid's docile. And even Prozac, you know, you know, which you know, Ryan in his part of what he wrote, and he wrote a lot about how he felt when he was on medication. And one of the things I thought that that was really profound what he said is he was given these medicines so that he wouldn't ever feel anger or sadness. Um but what it also did was it muted his ability to feel happiness. And so he lived in this sort of in these bumpers, right? These guardrails where he he never really had any emotion. And when he came off the meds, you know, he his emotions were all over the charts. Uh, you know, he if if we had a ski trip that would get canceled because of the weather or the rain or something, he would weep and cry. And he and he couldn't stop it, you know, because all of these emotions were surging that he never got to process, I think. And I think um part of that, you know, what what parents don't realize is you know, you're really muting everything, the ability to feel anything. And each and every one of us, you know, we feel every day. We as you get older, you learn to disdeal with disappointment only because you've been disappointed so many times, you kind of know, well, tomorrow will be another day, you know. And you know, but when you're eight, you know, it's the worst thing that ever happened to you. And you don't know that tomorrow's gonna be better. But you've got to go through that. And I think a lot of times medicines are keeping kids from going through that. Absolutely. I see it, you know. Um my daughter had a very traditional path, right? She went to a uh very prestigious private school, one that I happened to go to on a scholarship. And um, you know, that I was very proud that she ended up there. And uh, you know, all of the kids there are the sort of these elite kids academically, right, or athletically, or music, drama, like it really it's not easy to get into this school. Uh there's a large percentage of these kids that are on some kind of medication right now, and and some, you know, a lot of it is for ADHD, and I think there are kids who um, you know, probably benefit from that. And but a lot of them are on, you know, mental health medicines. And, you know, if if these kids are that percentage of that pool is on it, what's the rest of the, you know, the generation on? And so I I I do I do worry. I do worry that we're you know, we're using it, the same reason we go back to my first your first question, to fix these kids who aren't necessarily broken, but they're they're just different, you know, or they're just human and we're not giving them a chance to sort of work through some of the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Robert has given us a lot of tidbits to think about. For example, when you think about where Ryan ended up, what role do you think that sense of security that my dad is on my side no matter what played in his ability to build a life that fits him personally? And one of the most important questions that will conclude this interview for today is what kind of relationship do we want to have with our children when they're 25 or older? And what are we doing now that's moving that relationship in that direction? Understanding how your child thinks changes everything. And when that understanding is there, you start to see where they're getting stuck, how they process ideas and what they need in order to grow. That's the focus of my work at Turning the Tide Tutoring, an academic coaching and support program for students who think differently and need a more personalized approach to writing, learning, and communication. You can find more information in the show notes. And if this episode gave you something to think about, I'd really appreciate it if you followed the show, left a rating or review, or shared your thoughts in the comments. It helps more parents find these conversations. And thank you again for listening to The Gentle Year.