SCARLET ORANGE BROWN

Buckeyes Roll, Bengals Lose Burrow and Browns Struggle + Battling Concussions with Donnie Nickey

• Ken Carpenter and Chris Huesman • Season 1 • Episode 4

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The physical toll of football extends far beyond the final whistle, a reality former Buckeye and NFL veteran Donnie Nickey brings into sharp focus on this week's Scarlet Orange and Brown podcast. His candid journey through the aftermath of an eight-year NFL career—from debilitating cluster headaches to the spiritual awakening that ultimately saved him—offers a rare glimpse behind professional football's glossy exterior.

Between brutally honest reflections on his role as a "wedge buster" on special teams ("You've got to have a few screws loose") and shocking revelations about concussion protocols of the early 2000s ("Apple, umbrella... I just regurgitated the same three words"), Nickey delivers the kind of authentic perspective only someone who's lived in the trenches can provide. His admission of wearing the same helmet technology from high school through his NFL career stands as a stark reminder of how quickly player safety has evolved.

The episode doesn't shy away from current affairs, delivering comprehensive analysis of all three Ohio football teams. The hosts break down Ohio State's commanding 37-9 victory over Ohio University, highlighting Julian Sayin's impressive performance and Matt Patricia's defensive wizardry. They examine the Cincinnati Bengals' uncertain future following Joe Burrow's turf toe injury and explore why the Cleveland Browns continue to struggle despite outgaining opponents.

What emerges is a multi-layered conversation about football that transcends box scores and highlight reels. When Nickey says, "My championship ring now is my wedding ring," he crystallizes the episode's most powerful message: there's life after football, but finding your way there requires the right team around you. For anyone who loves the game but wants to understand its human cost, this episode delivers wisdom that lingers long after the final play.

Tune in every week for a new episode!

Speaker 1:

Today on the SOB, the Buckeyes roll against Ohio University and have two weeks to prepare for their first Big Ten opponent, the Washington Huskies. Cincinnati Bengals win late and improve to 2-0 but lose quarterback Joe Burrow for three months to a turf toe injury. And the Cleveland Browns fall to 0-2 and Miles Garrett is happy and the Browns are searching for answers. Finally, former Buckeye national champion and Tennessee Titan Donnie Nicky joins the show to discuss all three teams and share what NFL players deal with during and after their career.

Speaker 2:

Next on Scarlet Orange and Brown brown welcome to the scarlet orange and brown podcast, the show that brings you the best of ohio football every single week, from the ohio state buckeyes to the cincinnati bengals to the cleveland browns. We've got every inch of the buckeye state covered insight, passion and plenty of bold opinions. Because here it's all football, all Ohio, all the time. Here's your hosts coming to you live from the Dublin bubble Chris Huseman and Ken Carpenter.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the SOB podcast Scarlet, orange and Brown. I'm Coach.

Speaker 3:

Ken Carpenter, I'm Chris Huseman and I'd like to introduce the special guest that we have today in the studio, donnie Nicky. Donnie was a former player for the Ohio State Buckeyes, former captain, former captain for the Tennessee Titans, played eight years in the NFL and played for me out at Jonathan Alder Plain City, ohio.

Speaker 4:

And welcome to the show, donnie. Yeah, guys, thanks for having me on, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

All three teams in action Ohio State, cincinnati and Cleveland and I guess, starting off with Ohio State, they come away with a 37-9 win over the Bobcats out of Ohio University. I guess the positives is Jeremiah Smith, carnell Tate, over 100 yards and Bo Jackson I think he had 100-plus yards and minimal carries. And to me, I thought it was a great game for Julian Sane. He had 347 yards, 3 TDs and 2 picks.

Speaker 3:

What are your thoughts, chris? Well, a couple things. I think you hit on it there too as well. I mean, julian Sane is settling right into what we were hoping that he would be. I just saw a stat yesterday that he is in the top three in the nation in yards per game, quarterback rating and completion percentage. So in my book that's pretty good. We didn't skip a beat when it comes to Julian Sane and that's exactly what the doctor had ordered for the Buckeyes.

Speaker 3:

I'm right with you, kenny, on Bo Jackson. Um, you know, neither Donaldson nor peoples have really shown, uh, the vision or explosiveness uh needed to elevate this rushing attack for the Buckeyes. Um, but um, you know, I think he brings elite speed, um, brings some great vision. When it comes to those things, I think Brian Hartline needs to improve just a little bit on the play calling Struggled just a little bit. At times we got bogged down on a few things, but that's just being nitpicky as well. But you know, overall I like the look of the Buckeyes, I think Sands is going to be special, I think the defense is elite and you know, I just need, I think, once we find that cohesion between the ground game and the passing game, then you know we're really going to take off Pretty much, be unstoppable. Donnie your feelings on it.

Speaker 4:

Man, I think it was domination. Ohio played really well to begin and we just adjusted really well. I think, yeah, like you said about Hartline kind of getting the reins and getting into a rhythm of play calling like that'll be a work in progress. I think he's only going to get better as the season goes on. And on defense, I mean I think the sky's the limit for this defense and Matt Patricia is a magician with disguising coverages and causing confusion and really putting on the quarterback and, um, pressuring, uh, pressuring the quarterback to make decisions, because, I mean, any good coordinator has a philosophy of you cut the head off a snake. I mean it's a lot easier to to get the snake dead. I mean, and that's the, that's the reason for all the confusion is to really confuse the quarterback and put them in positions to give you quick turnovers and easy picks.

Speaker 1:

Donnie this early in the season as a former player, do the offensive and defensive coordinators do? They sometimes play pretty vanilla because they don't want to show a whole lot of what's going to happen when they start big 10 play.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean, I think, more so on offense.

Speaker 4:

I think offensively you're going to hide some looks and things that you've got planned for down the road. Defensively too, you could do that, but there'll be different packages. I think what Matt Patricia is doing is really installing a universal defense and see everything that we can do, our skill set, and then pare it down each week and call different defenses. So it's never going to be the same look twice. It'll never be pigeonholed as a cover two team or a bend-don't-break team or an attack team and hold as a cover two team or a bend don't break team or an attack team. It's, it's always, always, uh, always changing it up and making it hard to call plays against. And because those things, those things when you, when you think, if you, when you think you're getting a blitz and everybody bells out and then you throw an easy pitch and the quarterbacks just get, get real frustrated. So I mean I don't think, I don't think we're seeing, I think it'll see it, it'll be an evolution all season of of defensive and play calling offensively and defensively.

Speaker 3:

But I think it's only going to get better from here a couple things too, donnie, I was I was looking at too as well In your experience being a captain making a living too on special teams. How do the special teams really vote up for Ohio State this year in your opinion?

Speaker 4:

I mean I think they're doing well. I think we've got the athletes to win games on special teams, especially the Ohio State, like block and punts. Block punts are 14-point swings and I mean those are big plays and traditionally you get everybody involved. So you've got the backups usually that are playing special teams and we've got the athletes to really make a difference in special teams and that's how you get your chance to get on the field is through special teams. You play so well on special teams that you're like, hey, we got it. This guy had seven tackles on special teams. He's got to go in the game and so it's motivating for the young guys to get out there. But I think they're getting better and we'll see some more returns. We'll see some big plays on special teams is what it's looking like.

Speaker 4:

I think they're doing a good job. The coaches are doing a good job of making it matter, making it a third of the game, because it's one third of the game. You say there's three phases of football, but everybody's going to the bathroom when you're sick in the ball. It's only one play at a time and you don't get another chance to. So if you have a great play on special teams, you're happy. But if you don't, you get one chance and then you don't get another chance to make another play for another. At least at the most four more plays to get another chance to go out there. So I think we're headed in a good direction, special teams-wise for the Buckeyes.

Speaker 1:

Well, as a special teams player yourself when you were with the Titans, talk a little bit about the mentality that goes into being on the special teams and running down on a kickoff.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, man, it was something I had to get better at. So we would. I made the team for the Titans. I figured out that my way on the team was to hit the wedge. We used to have a wedge where it would be four offensive defensive linemen all together and we'd send two guys, one to hit the two on the right, one to hit the two on the left, and I'd have to look at the other guys. The other guy's name was Brad Castle from North Texas, and we would just go like this and turn your brain off. You'd say, turn your brain off, and we'd go let's go like this and click our brain off and then just go hit that wedge.

Speaker 4:

But it was easy to do the first kickoff of the game. But, man, after you get a high-scoring game, or you're up a lot or you're down a lot, man, you got to really be mentally tough to go do that again and again. It takes a lot of pride and discipline and practice to get through the wincing, because I mean, it's like a car wreck. So you're hitting that wedge, man, you got to have a few screws loose, but you got to want to a few screws loose, but you gotta want to do that, like you gotta really want to do that and and understand that that that is your role, because you're, as you take those two blockers, somebody's free and they're gonna make the tackle. So it's just um, it's just the mindset of um intensity, um willingness, and then then doing it for each other and doing your part for your teammates.

Speaker 3:

You know, one thing I noticed too was, you know, when we go out here in a couple weeks and we play at Washington just absolute gorgeous, you know place to play uh too as well it's going to be a tough environment out there. And I think special teams uh, kicking game I've been really impressed with fielding Um, he's been really good as far as kicking the football, um and um, I think special teams is just going to be that extra difference when we go out and play somebody like University of Washington out in Washington. So you know for what that's worth. I totally agree with you.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I mean it's any given game Like it's a stalemate on offense and defense, but man, a special teams play is going to be all the difference. So it's bound to happen and I'm excited to see it happen. More like the kickoff rules Now they've kind of, basically in the NFL and college have eliminated kickoff returns for the most part. There's some in, there's very few, but it's not as intensive as it used to be. So the but the punt game is is where we can. We can I mean we got close to a few of those last week and I mean we're just going to get better and make bigger plays on it. But yeah, the bigger environments, the more importance the each snap is, and especially the kicking game is going to matter and we'll win a game on special teams for sure as a wedge buster were there.

Speaker 1:

Is there a game or two that stands sure as a wedge buster were there? Is there a game or two that stands out in your mind where you went down and you're like, oh my god, I don't believe I just got hit that hard man, um, yeah, a few games against the patriots.

Speaker 4:

I remember, uh, in the patriots we were playing the patriots and uh I hit the wedge and man, I remember, uh Vrabel actually came out and was like hey, man, you okay, and like I was going to the wrong sideline. He's like man, you're going to get back over there. He like pushed me over, back over there. I was in the preseason actually and um, I mean I was just I was stars, but like every game, so it was every game thing. I had to get my mind right to do that. There's techniques too, because you're not always going to lead with your head. I mean you've got to have good leverage, but I mean you've got to go. There's no getting around that car wreck that could bother to happen.

Speaker 1:

Yes, without a doubt. I could only imagine what that would be like at the NFL level.

Speaker 3:

Okay, donnie, one thing I wanted to ask you too was like when you get these idle weeks or bye weeks so-called bye weeks, you know, right in the middle of your schedule. I mean, what's that like for an athlete, you know? Do you concentrate more on class, or is that? You know, what's the practice like? Or is it a heavy lifting week? You know, what does that look like at Ohio State?

Speaker 4:

Man, it's going to be a chance to get healed up. So you're going to use that week to recover and then use that week to game plan for the next opponent. So you get two weeks basically to get ready for that next opponent but also to get healthy. And guys that are dinged up have a chance to get some rest, get extra treatment and then also evaluate some younger guys, get some younger guys, some reps and kind of see what you want to go. But it's really valuable. Every season I mean it's a long season, especially in the NFL man You're playing 20 games. That bye week is vital and how you use that bye week really can determine how the rest of your season goes. It's a good, a good pivot point. If you're having, if you're having a terrible season, you can pivot and really rebound and come out the gates and finish strong. Or if you're having a strong season, it's to continue, get healthy and really finish strong and healthy.

Speaker 1:

Last evening Well, to transition to the Cincinnati Bengals, they went and came out with a late win this past weekend, but the big story coming out of it is Joe Burrow. He's lost for three months. Huey, I guess. To start off, I got to ask is Joe Burrow injured from?

Speaker 3:

Well, you know, I looked at a stat yesterday and it was through 71 games, Andrew Luck was sacked 157 times and Joe Burrow was sacked 201. Now you know Andrew Luck and the whole situation. He was just like you know, smart guy, went to Stanford and was like you know, I'm not giving my body up to science, so to speak, and you know I'm going to leave with all my faculties because if this is the NFL, you can have it, and I just don't want Joe Burrow to maybe get in that situation. I think we paid all this money to give him weapons around him and maybe didn't invest enough in the offensive line. But some of those sacks that Joe took was on Joe, I mean just watching Baker Mayfield scramble around. I mean, not too many times you're going to see Baker Mayfield just drop straight back on the five-step drop and look at the passing tree one, two, three, four. Oh, there's my fifth receiver. By then it's too late. So I think what they can do with him is maybe put him back a little further and maybe do a two or three-step drop and then get rid of the ball and if it's not there, throw it away. So I don't know.

Speaker 3:

You know, shamar Stewart hurt his leg. You know this is nothing new for a Cincinnati Bengals fan. I mean, this is his third one here at his wrist, you know. And then the MCL ACL. You know now we're looking at, you know, quarterbacks to bring in.

Speaker 3:

We got Brett Ripien from Vikings and Mike White from the Jets and Sean Clifford from the Packers coming in and you know people are talking about bringing back the red rifle, andy Dalton, you know. I mean mean it's just one of those things, uh. But you know, the quarterback that we have now, uh, the backup has been proven time and time again and he uh, every show that I've watched over the past week or the past couple days rather I should say everybody's just written the Bengals off. Cbs dropped us down to 15 on the power rankings, even though we're 2-0, and, yeah, everybody's pretty much written us off. So you know, in my world it's nothing new for a Bengals fan. I mean that's just what we have to do and have to go through. But you know, I'm just hoping that we can continue on Minnesota's hurt. Jj McCarthy's out, their running back Jones is out, so who knows, it could be a game.

Speaker 1:

Donnie, let me ask you when you're on a team like that and you lose a star quarterback of his caliber, how does that affect the rest of the team?

Speaker 4:

I mean it's a part of the game. I mean you're going to get injured, everybody gets injured. It's not if it's when everybody gets injured, not if it's when Steve McNair was the quarterback's MVP in 2003,. Co-mvp in 2003. He gets hurt in 2004. Billy Voel comes in, throws for 300 yards three games in a row. So and we I mean we struggled that year, but it never. It's always the next man up.

Speaker 4:

It doesn't change how the whole team prepares. Everybody prepares to win and then backups are backups. For a reason they're not quite as good, but occasionally you will have a backup that outplays their potentials or plays to their potential, to their potential, and it's next man up and they succeed and you guys win. So you, you can get by, you can get by a few games, but and it'll be three months, that's that's. That's unfortunate that it's that long.

Speaker 4:

I mean it's turf toe. That's a terrible injury, though it's not really turf toe makes it sound minimized like it's just his toe hurts, but it's his whole foot. Um, he's gonna have to have surgery. And I mean you always want, you always want to put your best foot forward and the bangles are gonna find. I mean, jake browning is the backup and we're looking for extra guys. But this is jake browning's time to shine, time to go. So I hope he does the best that he can and prepares, and I'm sure he's going to. But I think the Bengals will do better than we think without Joe Burrow I mean, joe Burrow is such a generational talent it's not going to be as good, but we can step up on the defense, step up on special teams and really do our best, like everybody can do their best to get that win each week.

Speaker 1:

It'll be hard, but the pressure really ratchets up for the defense because with Joe, you're thinking you know it's going to be a basketball score. Every time he steps out on the field with the receivers he has. What's your take on their defense so far?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you took the words right out of my mouth, kenny. You know that puts the onus on the defense and you know as good as a game that we had and our golden called against the Browns I didn't really see that against the Jaguars. You know, I thought we didn't pressure Trevor Lawrence enough in the first three quarters and then we finally started bringing pressure. And I mean, you know, lawrence, what did he throw? Three picks, I think. So I think we need to adopt the philosophy of hey, what do we want to do? Let's either just get after it and start blitzing people and make people make plays, especially when you're talking about Carson Wentz, who's the backup in Minnesota. So you know, I think we need to put a ton of pressure on him, make him move, get out of the pocket, feel uncomfortable and you know, I think we have the defensive backs to do that and I think Trey Hendrickson's enough of a one-man wrecking crew that you know he can keep things in check.

Speaker 1:

Would you trade for Joe Flacco?

Speaker 3:

Would you trade for Joe Flacco? I would trade for Stewart, maybe even Dylan Gabriel.

Speaker 3:

Oh you're saying Shador Sanders, yeah, or Shador Sanders Sorry, yes, or maybe even Gabriel from Oregon yeah, I would do that, you know. I mean you got three quarterbacks sitting there. I mean they're all healthy. I mean, you know, in my opinion, you know it's not Joe Flacco's fault. I mean, look at Browns, no-transcript. I mean offense is you know, and even the defense is you know. There it's just sometimes to me it's the Browns being the Browns, and you know I've got some stats that I want to throw out when we turn over to the Browns here. But you know, it's just remarkable. But that's a good question.

Speaker 1:

Well, their offense, obviously for the Browns, they're just not scoring enough points and you know, I think that's a big issue, o-line struggling a little bit, and I think the wide receiver room and the running backs are average for the NFL and I just don't know how you're going to put more points on the board. They were the lowest scoring offense last year. In their last 21 games they're 3-18. Donnie, what do you do to fix the Browns?

Speaker 4:

Man, you really got to really reset and it comes down to having a culture of winning. And, man, that culture is not there. So how do you build? How do you build that? Well, you do it by creating an atmosphere, creating a, an environment of competition, um, camaraderie. You got to get the guys close so they're playing for each other. And it's hard to do that in an NFL locker room because everybody's getting paid, especially with the dynamics of Sugar and Dylan and all that drama.

Speaker 4:

Getting that dynamic to go, but I mean to compete every day and get a little better every day is what you got to do. And then you got to. You got to execute on Sundays. I mean it doesn't matter what you do in practice if you don't do it on Sundays and you usually play like you practice, you do play like you practice. You do play like you practice. So carry that, it'll carry on and it's there. It's. They're practicing and making those plays and really improving every day and and having a good attitude and listing each other up and having a positive environment or it could be a toxic environment and then that's not going to work, then they're going to go backslide. But if they got those things going, they're going to get better and they're going to start executing and scoring points on Sundays.

Speaker 3:

You know, one thing I think to just I mean to give the Browns a little bit of credit is, you know, really the NFL schedule didn't really pay them any, um, any favors. Um, I mean, when you start out with two games in the AFC North, um, you're bringing in a high powered offense like Cincinnati, uh, who has been, you know, uh, threatening Zach Taylor's job if they don't get off to a good start. Um, and then, oh, by the way, you get rewarded by going to Baltimore and playing against Lamar Jackson, and it doesn't really get any easier for them. I mean, I think they got what Green Bay coming up at home this week, who's debatably the number one, number two team in the power ranking. So it's just a tough road to hoe right now.

Speaker 3:

And some of these stats I wanted to throw out at you guys and see what your thoughts were. You know they helped Derrick Henry to 23 yards, lamar Jackson two rushes, 13 yards. They ran 15 more plays and outgained the Ravens by 80 yards. They connected four more third down conversions than the Ravens. They lost by 24.

Speaker 3:

A couple of the other ones that I thought was interesting. I did a deeper dive into that. The yards per catch was the Browns 5.23 and the Ravens 2.14, and you got guys on there like Mark Andrews, zay Flowers, all kinds of people. Third down conversions we kind of talked about, but 7 of 18 for the Browns, which is not good, but they held the Ravens to 3 out of 12 on third down conversions. And then the rushing yards they outrushed the Ravens by 25 yards and still losing by 24. I mean, you've got to think that's either special teams which I think, kenny, you're going to talk about a little bit on that and just how important they were in those two games really, I mean the two missed kicks versus the Bengals. And then, kenny, you can take it from here.

Speaker 1:

Well, I mean the special teams like Donnie likes to talk about the up back there that's supposed to protect the punter, he just gets blown up. I mean he gets depleted, and I I don't understand how that happens. When you're in that position yes, I know that guy's got a running start, but 99 times out of 100 you see that guy hold his ground or at least back up just a little bit, but to be totally put on your back. I mean that tells me you're not prepared. And what? What do you say to that donnie when you're, you're the, the guy that's basically protecting the punter.

Speaker 4:

Man, you got to go, cut the guy. You cannot get run over, you can't get pushed back into the punter Like you can't give any ground. So if you're going against a guy that's bigger than you or more powerful than you, you just go at his leg, you cut him. And I mean sometimes in the moment it's hard to decide what to do. But you have to stand your ground and when it's a bigger guy, I just cut him. Just cut him, cut his legs or cut the whole pile, make a whole pile, as long as they don't get back to the punter.

Speaker 4:

I've played on the edge and the wing and the personal protector and there's a little bit it's kind of the same thing but it's more. There's more angles on the edge but the personal protector has a direct line so nothing can get up and usually, usually you're making a call to the center, the long snapper, to block one A gap and you got the other, the personal protector, out of the other A gap. So you're both just stuffing those A gaps and if it's somebody bigger or stronger or they try to sneak or twist too. Man, you just got to make a pile, it's just got to be a thing that'll get corrected. I'm sure that personal protector will get it corrected. But, man, there's nothing worse than giving up somebody or being responsible for the punt getting blocked. That's the worst feeling there is. But that's what they're there for. That's what practice is for.

Speaker 3:

We had a game recently, donnie too, I forget which game it was, I had so many games going through my head but, um, they made contact with the center, or the long snap, uh, and it was a leverage play. I think it was, um, uh, the Broncos game, uh, and they called leverage and they had to move the you know the ball back and you know retry the field goal, but you know, talk a little bit about too. I mean, what can you and cannot do with the long snap?

Speaker 4:

So you can't leverage off it, so you can't use the center or another line to propel yourself up to block a kick. You can jump over it, but you can't have any contact with anybody having you jump. So it's kind of hard like asking somebody to jump up and kick it or jump because you got to jump to block the kick. But as soon as you touch that kicker it's leveraging. So it's a funny, it's a weird uh rule and it's kind of hard to navigate, but it's just for player safety and so guys aren't just jumping off the helmet of the center of the long snapper to block the kick one thing I wanted to ask too.

Speaker 3:

One thing about this too, was you know it dawned on me last night watching these games, um, on monday night football, you know I'm seeing baker mayfield. You know I'm seeing Baker Mayfield, you know, just lead a game-winning drive. This would not accept losing that game last night and what he did. And then, you know, you flip it over on the other one. You see Nick Chubb, you know, going for a game-winning touchdown. You know what's that say you know to a Browns fan and what's that say you know to, you know, are the decision-making they're making at the front office.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think you know you're looking at. I think when Baker was there last year they went 8-9, 9-8, somewhere like that, and they basically said you know that's not good enough. And they basically said you know that's not good enough. But I think Browns fans would probably take that now and there's probably a lot of Browns fans that would love to have Baker Mayfield back. And you know something I had written down that I wanted to ask you guys, put on your GM hat To me. There's no legit, clear number one quarterback coming out of college next year. What do you do? What do you do if you're the Browns? Do you take Miles Garrett and trade him and get as much as you can? Or kind of like how the Cowboys did with trading away their star player, michael Parsons? Or do you just turn it over to Dylan Gabriel and Shador and say let's see what's going to happen, because you know it's not going to be Joe Flacco next year?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, well, I mean I think at some point in the season the young guys get a chance to go and we'll have a little bit more knowledge of what they can do. And I think I mean Dylan will come in and he'll have a little bit more knowledge of what they can do. And I think Dylan will come in and he'll play some, and then Shadur will have his chance and we'll see who really can play in the NFL, because preseason is nothing like regular season and until he has that experience we're not going to know. So it's going to take some time. I think at some point we'll see both of them play, and not that I hope Joe, joe Flacco gets hurt. But I just think if we continue, or the Browns continue, to struggle, they're going to make some changes and evaluate these guys just to get a spark.

Speaker 4:

Um cause the. The quarterback is the most important position in sports. I mean he's got the most leadership and the most effect of any position on any team in any sport. It really does motivate the rest of the team when a quarterback is a competitor and is able to get first downs and score and make plays that you, that you don't think he's gonna make, or you, but other guys don't. Make like toughness, mental toughness, physical toughness, vocal leadership, um animation like and winning games and production like. Production is the bottom line. So the one that produces will be the one that wins and he'll get the job eventually, we'll see.

Speaker 3:

Donnie, I just kind of want to piggyback that too. What Kenny said was you know, you look at the style of quarterbacks in the AFC North. I mean you've got Aaron Rodgers, who's dropped back. You've got Joe Burrow, who's dropped back but could scramble if he needed to and would be effective. You've got Lamar Jackson, who can drop back, throw and run. That's probably why they're so effective too as well. And then Joe Flacco is a straight drop back. Stafford drop back. A lot of these good quarterbacks. I don't see a lot of these quarterbacks that are just run-oriented quarterbacks, that are just really, really. Patrick Mahomes he'll run if he has to and he does a really good job. But when you played, like when you were defensive back, and you played defensive back and strong safety, free safety in the NFL, I mean, what gave you more fits? Just that prototypical drop back passer or that guy that was just like I'm antsy in the pocket.

Speaker 4:

I got to take off and run man the guy, guys that can do both guys like lamar are are a problem because you I mean like playing against payton manning. We played against payton manning twice a year from my in my entire career and man he was, you knew he was going to be. They only ran a few plays but he called, and he called every play at the line. So, um, you knew he wasn't going to beat you with your legs, so you could. You knew he like, if you could force him to to get off the spot and hurry him up, man, you had a chance. But you just had to be make sure, disguise your coverage. So it's just different.

Speaker 4:

But a guy that can run the ball, it's kind of off-schedule stuff, like off-schedule to me. I think of Ben Roethlisberger, steve Maynard, ben Roethlisberger, guys that were hard to take down so you could get to them but you weren't going to tackle them before you could throw the ball and you can only cover. You can't cover for six, ten seconds. You can't cover the whole play, the whole down. So at some point somebody can get open.

Speaker 4:

When a guy can extend the play with his legs, you're not going to be able to cover as long as he's going to be able to run. So there's a lot more off schedule stuff. So there's it's preparing differently. You use a spy a lot for guys that can run and you got to be careful blitzing guys that can run, because if they recognize it they can just go right where the blitzer came from or throw right to where the blitz came from and get a big play on you, just like Daniel Jung has been doing for the Colts. They blitzed him like 70% of the play and man, he just tore him up because he was throwing into the blitz and anticipating that. So he prepared like the ones that are most difficult to prepare for are the ones that prepare for you the most.

Speaker 1:

Well, if we could you know we we would talk about your experience as an nfl player and some of the stuff that you went through and you obviously talking earlier about uh, running down and hitting on the wedge. How would be a player that played eight years in the nfl when I think the average nfl player is maybe two or three? How has that affected you with your health after you've walked away from the game?

Speaker 4:

Man. So I retired in 2010. And man, I had. It's been a rough transition. It's really been a journey. It's been a rough transition. It's really been a journey.

Speaker 4:

So as soon as I stopped playing, I'd get headaches about once a month. I would get these things called cluster headaches. It was like somebody stabbing an ice pick in the back of your eye, on one side or the other. It would last about 12 hours. I'd get nauseous. I was having those frequently. Hours I get nauseous, was having those frequently.

Speaker 4:

So I got to a neurologist and did some testing and stuff and got my neurotransmitter levels checked and did some, did some medications to kind of compensate for neurotransmitter levels being low but really developing. Like the biggest thing was I didn't have a team. So the struggle was that I went from having a team my whole life to being on my own and not having a team, not having the, the, the leadership to follow and the teammates to encourage and be encouraged by. So I've really and it's really really comes down to a spiritual foundation and and building a spiritual foundation. So, um, I've worked. I've worked for the last 15 years to really build a solid spiritual foundation and really to overcome a lot of the things that I tried to replace football with. So I replaced it with everything. I mean it was shopping, drinking pain, pills, like anything, you name it. I tried it and, man, the only thing that I was missing and I was just missing that team, and I was missing that spiritual foundation, that connection which I found, which I found now, um, with God and really, um, helping other people and talking with other guys, like realizing that that I've had a lot of, uh, a lot of concussions.

Speaker 4:

And I mean, what's a concussion Like?

Speaker 4:

The question is, people ask me, how many concussions did I have? Well, I asked them, well, what's a concussion? If a concussion, you think a concussion is getting knocked out, I've had two of those. But if a concussion is like seeing stars, or like getting um, like few like seeing stars, or or having like like little bit of wonky vision, man, I had hundreds thousands of those, I mean.

Speaker 4:

I mean I didn't think I had a good practice unless I got got my bell rung in training camp, that's, that was every day for 30 days. I was trying to trying to hit somebody, you know. So I would see those stars, and I mean so the accumulation of those over time, man, and those headaches and then the depressionPE symptoms were kind of the chicken of the egg which one hatched first, and addiction too. So all the things kind of boil down to a daily regimen of feeding myself spiritually, helping other people and growing each day to be as healthy as I can, moving forward and then to help other guys that come out of the league, because, uh, 100 of the players in the nfl right now, 100 are going to retire before they're 45 unless they're, unless there's another tom br where Aaron Rodgers is pretty close, but everybody's going to retire at a young age. It's having a team to go to after that and really building your spiritual foundation to succeed after you're out of the game that really helps God succeed after football.

Speaker 3:

What role. I mean? That's obviously. We've seen that with the helmets, you know, and they're trying to do all these different things. Now you see guys wearing the. You know the guardian cap on there and you see a lot of the receivers wearing those, you see a lot of the offensive linemen wearing those, but what role is the NFL taking to combat some of these issues? I guess is what I'm saying.

Speaker 4:

Well, I think the way they teach tackling is different. When I was growing up, I was taught to tackle put a crown on my head, on the chin of my opponent. Now they're teaching them to keep your head up, to use your shoulder pads, so it's near hip, near shoulder, on tackling running backs and receivers and keeping your head out and keeping your head behind the ball carrier. So the way they teach it is different. I feel like the way they teach it causes a lot of missed tackles. So there's a lot more missed tackles in the NFL and college now because of the way they teach it, but it's full player safety knowledge. Now because of the way they teach it, but it's full player safety. Um, uh, obviously, the fine schedule. There's, uh, the targeting man. I would have gotten a lot more targetings than I got interceptions, I mean, and that was my, that was my main ability was was to hit somebody with my helmet and man, I don't know that I would have been able to play in today's football, college or NFL. But I mean they're doing it in player safety and I think they're doing the best they can.

Speaker 4:

You can't stop physics. I mean, the helmet technology is not going to save people from getting concussions or CPE. I mean you're just not going to be able to change physics Like you're hitting. Guys are running 21 miles an hour and they're going to run into each other. There's going to be big hits. That's the best part of the game really. I mean Chuck Cecil was my DB coach for the Titans and he was my hero growing up, like for the Packers and if you want to see some big hits, you see Chuck Cecil and man.

Speaker 4:

It's just a different game. There's a lot more knowledge and I would get concussed or I would have a lot more knowledge and and I would get I would get concussed or I would have a concussion and I would never come out of the game. I was not coming out of the game because I didn't want to be taken out of the game or seen as weak by my teammates and I wanted to be the mental toughness part. But I think the players are a lot more aware now. You got guys that are coming out of the games realizing the long-term effects of head injuries and kind of taking themselves out, taking the right amount of time to address those issues. But I mean there are long-term issues and issues and I've I've felt every bit of that, I think.

Speaker 3:

Uh, kenny, correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think the NFL even now has concussion spotters where their job is to sit up there in the stands. And you know, watch that guy on the sidelines and you know radio down that, hey, you know we need to take this guy in the tent and put him through concussion protocol and you know, just try to protect him that way too.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, they do that and and uh, the it used to be. It used to be if you got dinged up and somebody noticed that you were a little wobbly or you got your bell wrong, they'd, they'd sit you down. The trainer would give you three words. The same three words every time. So apple, umbrella, and I can't remember the last one, but man, there was the same three words, so I always knew the three words. So I just regurgitate it. No matter what like, but they're a lot more serious about it.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot more, uh, awareness of it and, um, a lot more enforcement so you just said when you obviously was in a situation where you possibly could have a concussion. Nfo trainer would say tell me these three words and if you would say them you were good yeah, basically it was.

Speaker 4:

The testing was very rudimentary. It was like look at my eyes and it was basically just to see if I was aware of my surroundings. I could remember something. Short term it was there's nothing long term about. Like concussions are as unique as a fingerprint. Each concussion is different. Like there's no two concussions. Two concussions are are the same, so every and it affects everybody different and it's so. It's so, uh, objective. That like to have a rudimentary test like that was kind of ridiculous. But I mean, that's all, that's how it was back in the day. I mean it's different now. There's a lot more awareness, a lot more spotters and we're not talking.

Speaker 4:

And we're not talking like 1976, we're talking no, this was like 2000, the tooth, early 2000s, 2010s. Yeah, I wore the same. I wore the same helmet. Well, here's the thing about my the helmet technology. So I wore the same helmet from 1999 to 2009. And I only got I only had a new helmet in 2010. I got an air helmet with a with a little bit more air in it, a little more structure. The feed flexors weren't out yet. It was the technology. The tectonic plates weren't there yet. But I mean, I had no upgrade in technology in my helmet for a long time. For the whole time I played in college in the NFL, I wore the same helmet that I wore in high school.

Speaker 1:

That's just amazing. Now you mentioned that you're kind of working with guys as they're getting out of the NFL and trying to help those guys out. What, what exactly is that?

Speaker 4:

um, the NFL Alumni Association. Um, they do a lot of transitioning, a lot of helping with guys transitioning into the league and we all keep up with each other. So there's a lot of programs through the NFL Players Association, the trust, and through the league that promote, promote teamwork and helping each other to transition and to have teammates after the game to go through like you did when you were playing. So it's through a lot of different organizations but the B-1 Mass Association, the Players Association, doing it on my own, like keeping up with my teammates, just making sure that I'm connecting with guys I played with and just calling guys that I played with at every level on a regular basis and keeping those relationships strong and letting them know that, hey, I'm struggling too, like it's okay, we all struggle, we're all going to struggle, but when you have somebody to to share that struggle with or talk about it and it's half solved right there, just by just by let asking for for help, you cut that in half you um.

Speaker 3:

You've been working too, donnie. I think with what was it? Michael war?

Speaker 4:

yeah, that was for uh. That was for uh, um, that was for an alumni event, um that we're. That we're talking about fatherhood. We're on a fatherhood panel um through the alumni association um at michael. We're on a fatherhood panel through the Alumni Association at Michael we're and just plugging back in and doing things for the community a lot of outreach through the Tennessee Department of Health. But this was, this was through the same same grant and we were doing a fatherhood uh panel for all men and we. We got to talk and learn about, uh, fatherhood and what that means and what the responsibility of that is and the impact that carries um for everybody. And so how important of a role that is, especially now that football's over. Like that's my, my man, my, my championship ring now is my wedding ring. Like that's, that's my chance. It's to be a champion as a father and a husband. Um, that I'm really aiming for now. So it's just a shift, a shift in mindset, um, gratitude for the opportunities, but how can I grow and become better?

Speaker 1:

Well, that's just amazing to hear what it's like for an NFL player, would you think. Is there one position that, in your mind, has more concussion, cte-type symptoms in it than the other possessions?

Speaker 4:

Man, I think the linemen, the linemen are every play, their helmets are hitting every play almost. So there's got to be more concussions and it's the, it's the mini concussion. So the, the, the cumulative concussions, and how many little bit of little tiny micro concussions they get, is probably probably the most risky. But I mean they've lived the. The most dangerous play was the kickoff. I mean that's the data they. They did a lot of, they've done a lot of research on plays and that was the kickoff. I mean that's the data. They've done a lot of research on plays and that was the most dangerous because you got the highest amount of speed and force going at each other and guys are hitting each other after moving at full speed. So it's kind of eliminated that.

Speaker 4:

But any given play I mean it's those small concussions. I think the further you get back, the faster guys that are moving fast are going to be a little bit more, have more bigger concussions. So you're going to get guys that are knocked out, like running from speed on your skill versus skill versus, like the smaller concussions that are going on every play at the line. So yeah, I wouldn't say one position, but I think the more common concussions are the line, the guys on the line, but the bigger ones are from the guys on the back end.

Speaker 3:

Well Huey to wrap it up. You know, I think, just the nature of our podcast the SOB, it's just a bunch of blue-collar guys up here trying to. You know, I think, uh, just the nature of our podcast, the sob, it's just a bunch of blue collar guys up here trying to, um, you know, figure out ohio football. I mean, we got, uh, to me, this is the cradle of football. Uh, yeah, we're just so happy to be. Yeah, exactly, uh, not only do we have the hall of fame here, um, but you know, we have two pro sport teams here as well. Uh, we have the number one um football team in the nation right now here, uh, defending national champs.

Speaker 3:

So you know, these people around here, whether they like to say it or not, they do, they do know a lot about football, um, you know, at the same time, um, you know, I, I, I like getting on here and just discussing things, uh, what Donnie's saying. You know the side of football that maybe you don't see the concussions, or you know what happens after football, and you know those intangible things right there to me. Just, you know, mean the world. And that's something that our podcast, kenny, I think, is going to bring, and we're hoping that Donnie can join us weekly or every other week, or when he can or when a schedule allows. He's very busy, but Donnie's based out of Nashville, lives down there with his beautiful wife and kids and you know, we're just lucky to have him on. And, yeah, you know, I think this is going to be a podcast that people really will want to listen to.

Speaker 1:

Well, donnie, we can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this, and the thing that just I kept thinking about as you were talking was you go to any bar, you're sitting on your couch, or if you're going to the game in person and you're sitting there and you're screaming at these guys. But the bottom line is you guys are human, you make mistakes and you're putting your body through something that the average person has no clue. What you experience every week in the NFL, and I wish people would think about that a little bit more, and we can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this with us.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, man. Thank you for having me on, man. I loved it, thank you.

Speaker 1:

Well for Chris Huseman, I'm, Ken Carpenter and Donnie Nicky. Thanks for joining us on the SOB podcast. Thank you.