28 - Matrescence and Leaning into What's Calling You Next with Deborah Graham

Becoming a mother is a profound experience on a physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual level, and for so many of us it leads to a complete identity shift and change with how we relate to our work and career. 

Inside this episode, Deborah Graham---mom of 2 girls, a financial specialist in the corporate world, and host of the Matrescence at Work Podcast---shares her insights on:

• The struggle of relinquishing newborn and infant responsibilities in those early days of motherhood
• The complex experience of matrescence and how it impacts our relationship to our work and career
• Becoming aware of and respecting the gap between our ambition and our actual capacity 
• Advocating for our needs in the workplace as moms and setting boundaries around our precious energy
• Making courageous moves to step into a new calling and making space for it within an already loaded schedule 
• Accepting the season you're in and being okay with doing things imperfectly---especially when you feel so passionate about it!
• So much more!

For the expecting mom, for the mom in the thick of transitioning into the reality of motherhood, for the mom still feeling the aftershock of matrescence, for the mom rethinking how she wants work to show up in her life, this episode is for you!

You are not alone in this rollercoaster ride of matrescence. 

To tune into Deborah's podcast, Matrescence at Work, click here! To follow along with Deborah and the Matrescence at Work Podcast on Instagram, click here!

Get access to the Success Recalibration Ritual here! You deserve to feel good about the way you're doing life and business and motherhood no matter what season of life you're in. 

Are you an ambitious mom looking to start or grow your business in a way that feels aligned? Here's what to do next:

1. Follow me on Instagram @MomBossFreedom and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss the newest episodes! If this content really resonates with you, be sure to leave a review and star rating as well<3
2. Schedule a 15-minute clarity + connection chat to share more about your business and the vision you have for what's next. (I do currently have 1:1 business coaching spots open!)
3. Access the Success Recalibration Ritual so you can start feeling more successful more often as a mom and business owner!
4. Head here for freebies and to learn how to get nervous-system-safe coaching as an ambitious mom building a meaningful business.

If you're reading this, our paths were meant to cross :) I can't wait to support you in starting or growing your business as a busy mom!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey mama, welcome to the Mom Boss Freedom Podcast, where ambitious moms come to build and grow businesses that give them the freedom and flexibility that they deserve as both a mom and an incredibly talented human. Whether you're brand new to entrepreneurship or scaling a business you already started, you're in the right place. I'm your host, Paige Figaroa, mom of two and former English teacher turned online business owner. Around here, we talk about making space for both your big dreams and those little moments you don't want to miss as a mom. So reheat your coffee one more time and let's dive into today's episode. Welcome back to another episode of the Mom Boss Freedom Podcast. Today we have a really cool guest. Her name is Deborah Graham, and Deborah has her own podcast called Metrescence at Work. And within the episode, she's gonna tell us a little bit more about that. But she is a really inspiring story as a mom of two, a working mom, and also now hosting this podcast, which is incredible. And I'm really excited for you all to hear about her journey and learn about all the incredible things that she is doing and the way she's also um just allowing other women at work, mothers at work, have a voice and a platform to just share their experiences because those of us who have been there know that it is quite a journey and a just a little bit of a mess too. And we're not in this alone. And so, Deborah, I'm so excited to have you today. I'd love if you could just start by giving us a quick snapshot of like who you are, where you are in the world, and um what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Hey Paige, thanks so much for having me today. So I'm Deborah, I'm 43 years old, so I had my babies, my first baby at 39 and my second baby at 42. Um, I live in Sydney in Australia, and I professionally have worked in the financial services industry for nearly 20 years. And then I had children, and wow, wow, going back to work is is crazy. And from my first return, I had this idea about a podcast, and it took me a really long time to get there, but I did. And I started Matrescents at Work Podcast, where I like to share the stories of mothers with their experience in returning to work. And my whole mission is to reduce the isolation that we feel in motherhood.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah. Well, we we definitely can use more people like you because the isolation. I was talking about this with a friend from high school today. The isolation can be really real, especially in that like first year or two when you're, you know, getting your feet on the ground as a new mom. But I'd love it for you to take us back, Deborah, to the beginning of your motherhood journey. And um, you know, because that's where matrescence starts, right, is when we become a mom. So tell us a little bit about your entry into the world of motherhood and what that experience was like for you.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Yeah, wow. So as I mentioned, being on the older side to become a mom for the first time, I the experience was the polar opposite to what I thought it was going to be. So I thought I'm established in my career, um, I've got my circles, I I know how to do life. Uh, a child will just slot into that life. What I found, uh, so I became pregnant on the back of um the COVID pandemic. So it was around the time that we were getting called back into the office, um, I managed to negotiate to continue to work from home. Um, because I experienced a lot of anxiety, and I probably didn't realize at the time it was anxiety, but that fear of being 39, being pregnant, if something happened, wouldn't would I have that chance again? So, what I found is once I had my beautiful daughter, um I was so attached to her it's not funny. I thought, you know, after three months we'd be getting a babysitter and going out and and doing all those things, but I didn't want to leave her. And I still kind of don't, to be honest. And that took me by surprise. And I think it took my partner by surprise. And it was really hard in that moment to explain what I was feeling and how I was feeling and why I was so protective, for lack of better term, of my child.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, I I can relate to that a lot too. We were just chatting before our our older, well, my two kids and your oldest are like maybe a half year apart. And so I I agree with that like anxiety piece for sure. I feel like to an extent, maybe the pandemic really, you know, exacerbated that. I don't know what it was like for you having a baby around the time of the pandemic, but we were still having to wear masks here in the hospital. Um, we couldn't have anybody come to the hospital with us to like see the babies and everything. So that isolation just, you know, made the anxiety feel even more palpable.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

Um absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

And the and the like not wanting, I feel like that's something that a lot of um women, because you said you were you've been in the career that you're in for, you know, two decades almost. And I had almost been in mind for almost one full decade at that time. I can also relate to that idea of not wanting to, or not thinking that I would be the type of mom, quote unquote, who like wanted to be home and like be with her baby so much. Um, so that also took me by surprise too. And I feel like you until you have that little tiny human in your arms, and your whole life is to be re-configured around them. It's you just don't know until you're in it. Um so yeah, so from there, what did that experience? You have your first daughter a little bit after the pandemic, and then you don't want to leave her. What does that next step look like for you? What happened from there?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

So when I talk about not wanting to leave her, it was around not wanting other people to take her. Um, and with the pandemic, we had some family members that were anti-vax. Um, and and Australia's very uh it's a rules country, everyone follows the rules. Um so we had mandates around, you know, requirements there. And um for me, I'm a rule follower. And so for me that was imminent danger, and and that was probably being dismissed. Um, so it was interesting because that that was where that big challenge was. Um and it took me quite some time even just to leave my partner alone with the baby. Um, that was kind of phase one. Um and then, you know, phase two, I think when she was maybe like nine months old, my mom came for a date night. Uh, I would recommend this to anyone expecting a baby or having a baby, book some tickets for something when your baby's about eight or nine months old. Because I didn't want to leave, but we'd booked that before we'd even had the baby. Yeah, I had tickets. And so you kind of got to push through it as well, right? Like don't do it to an extent where you're so uncomfortable. But if you've if you don't already have it planned, you'll probably keep putting it off. And so piece by piece, you know, an hour here, an hour there, finding our people or our village, um we found a really good daycare. And we were very comfortable with the educators there. So being able to do that due diligence, find the people, find the people that would listen to us and understand what we wanted for our child. Yeah, um, those types of things helped me to then kind of step back and and take some space.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah. That that village is so important. And I think that like, I I don't know if every parenting generation feels this way, but I feel like the way that I was parented as a child is, you know, there's things that I really enjoyed in my childhood, but there were also things where I'm like, I I would do that differently. And I feel like sometimes it's hard when we feel like our village or like, you know, our immediate family and the people who are close to us in our community don't understand what we're trying to do with how we're we want to raise our children. And I feel like that can put a lot of like I guess my question is like, did you feel like a sense of like judgment around that and like what you were wanting to do for your child and how it was being perceived, I guess, potentially by other people?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Yeah, absolutely in some regards. So I'm very lucky. My mom is very um, she'll be like, oh, we used to do this, but you probably wouldn't do that now. So she has that lens of awareness, knowing that it's different. Um, and then for some other people, it's almost they take it personally that you're doing something different. So you're actually at your lowest, most heightened, and having to manage other people's emotions in how they're responding to what you want. Um, and some of the things like um I'm very child-led is probably a good way to put it. I am a gentle parent, but gentle parent doesn't mean no boundaries. And so our eldest is a very sensitive little soul. So snapping at her or being really firm with her without getting there, yeah, that's not going to work for her. And so I think that trying to fight you know your children best, and almost trying to fight to protect them, yeah, and to guide people to understand. It's it's like when you're in work, someone will say, Oh, if you need something out of Mary, the best way to get that from Mary is you should send give her a phone call and then follow her up with an email, right? And in the workplace, people go, no problems. That's how I'll approach Mary. But when it comes to your children, it's almost dismissed.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

Hmm. That's such a good point. I I don't know if I've heard someone say it, like framed it like that with that connection to work, but you're so right. It's like I I wonder if it's because workplace scenarios are so specific to like um like specialties and like expertise. And with parenting, it's like everybody has has maybe parent the not everybody, but like people who have had their own children or who have like helped raise or care give for children, think that they know something about parenting, which they might, but it's it's not what's helpful necessarily the most appropriate for your particular child, right? Um, so it's really interesting. I love how you frame that. It's really interesting because it's like almost like you are the expert in your particular child, just as though you would be like the expert in a particular area of your field, and people need to to know how to like work with you in that regard. That's really interesting. Um I didn't prep you for this question, but I since you mentioned it, you had said this thing about even being a little bit afraid to leave your partner alone with your child in the beginning too. Um I I feel like that's very relatable. I feel like so many moms that I know have experienced that to some extent or another. I know that I had experienced that, like um, my my children both had feeding issues in the beginning. And when you were saying go take a trip around nine months, I think my first trip was around seven or eight months because I wanted to have I wanted to host like a 30th birthday party for my friend another stayed away. And I really had to push myself to to like say, yes, this is important to me, and I want to go do this because I was afraid to leave him with the babies and doing all the feeding stuff by himself for like maybe like a 36-hour period. But it it is, it can be like when you are the um, and and maybe you wouldn't use this terminology, but like when you are that default parent or you know, the mother when you are the one potentially who has all the time more time with the baby in the beginning, it can feel really scary to relinquish that control to someone else, even if it's your partner and you know the baby's own father. So I'm curious for you, like was your husband also working at the time? Did he have you said you had three months uh of leave? It sounded like did your husband also have leave, or was were you by yourself most of that time?

SPEAKER_02 12:55

So with our first, um, I ended up having about nine months off and he had the first eight weeks off.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Um, and then with our second, I did a month solo, then he had a month off, and then he's just gone back now after three months off.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So with the first, we were both fumbling together for the first eight weeks. And we learnt we learnt by the second that um, and there was some logistics around his leave, but we were like, I'm just going to cope for four weeks because there's not a lot they can do.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

And it's really challenging because and it's not through lack of of want or or will, it's really challenging because as the mum in those very early days, you're it and they want to help, but there's not a lot they can do. And then they kind of get frustrated that they can't help you. And so once you kind of get a ri rhythm or establish a rhythm, they can then step in when you get to a point where maybe they can take a bottle, or um you know, you've got a bit of a routine and you're not just feeding your kids to sleep or or whatever it may be. Needing to I think for me, the big challenge was a lot of my parenting is instinctual. I didn't really read anything before I had my first baby. I just went with the flow. And this is something that my partner and I we've since established. He'd been reading all this stuff. And so he was like, Oh, the awake window, and our daughter needs to go to sleep now, and now's the time. And then she wouldn't go to sleep with him. And then he'd get to his point, which we all get to, where we just go, I'm done. And so I'd then have this baby that instinctually I'm thinking, I don't think she needs to go to sleep.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

But feeling pressured to try and get her to sleep. And when it comes to leaving your child and even leaving them with your partner, the mental load of needing to get that out of your head to share.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Um, and then the other part is the ability, and you mentioned this, the ability to let go or relinquish control and say, and I'm still not there yet. Um I'm working on it, I'm not there. But to say, this is how we do things. But today or tonight, if they go this way, because I get to go and see some girlfriends, like I have to let go of that.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah. Yeah, it it's it's challenging. And I I use that terminology, but I also agree I'm still relinquishing you, can't relinquish it all at once. It's like a something you do over time. Because even with me, I have no issue relinquishing, you know, the dinner and like getting them fed and stuff now. Obviously, they're a little bit older now, but for me, it's the relinquishing that is challenging, is like I feel like I I'm maybe I'm more similar to your husband in the sense that I feel like I'm doing all the research now for you know child rearing techniques with you know, gentle parenting and reading all the books, and I have all these um philosophies, I guess, of like how I want to discipline them and you know connect with them. Um and I feel like my trouble with relinquishing comes from um the I guess the philosophy of parenting, if that and it's tricky, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

And I'll probably make a comment about this and talking about going with the flow. I was a type A personality before I had kids, and I'm still somewhat like that in my professional life, but no one is more shocked than me by the fact that from a parenting standpoint I do sort of go with the flow. Like I have rhythms and I have systems, but I also go, I want you asleep at 8:30.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

You're probably not going to go to sleep at 8.30. So as long as we're calm and we're relaxing and we're quiet, nine o'clock's okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Where before I had children, I thought I was going to be more structured in how I did things.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

It's like relearning about yourself almost because you are, I mean, this segues into my next question. You you are kind of a new person in a lot of ways. Um, and you're assuming this completely new identity. So um, with your podcast being called Matrescence at Work, I would love to hear from your perspective, because I'm sure this is something that you've thought a lot about. Like, what does the word and the term matrescence mean to you? Like, when did you even first learn about it? Um, and kind of how does that, yeah, what what what does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Good question. So, as I said, I had this idea for this podcast for a long time, and it was towards the end of last year, 2025, that I had the mental capacity to get this started. And I had a working title called For the Mums. And I wasn't happy with it. So I went down the Google path and words about words about mom words that relate to mom words that relate to the transition of a mom. And and I found the word matrescence. And I have a couple of like videos on Instagram. But what I found is when I found the word matrescence, this anxiety, this unrest, this constant questioning of what's wrong with me, why can't I do it? Why can everyone else do it? Disappeared. Because what matrescence taught me is that we do actually change. And we just we change in so many ways. And and you know, the the very definition physical, emotional, mental, socially, and it was like almost like a sigh of relief. There wasn't something wrong with me. I wasn't broken. I'd just gone through and then still going through this transition because I'm not just me anymore, I'm now the mother of my two beautiful daughters, and the way I see the world is different, and it's really challenging because the ambition's still there, the capacity to give what I once gave a career is no longer there, but the will still is, yeah, and that's the biggest juggle. And so when I thought about this title, matrescence at work, and it it's kind of a bit of a play-on-word, so there's the actual literal at work, but then also how does matrescence play out for you and and what was that experience and what was that transition, you know, that that every mum went through because we all change in some way, shape, or form through becoming a mother.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah. That's so lovely. And I I agree it it the way that you're describing it, it feels less lonely and it it puts a nice word to what I otherwise feels pretty intangible because if you, you know, when you're going through motherhood, especially with your first child, you're like, what is actually happening to me? It's like a very strange, um, I don't want to say out-of-body experience because there's so much in your body that you're like experiencing too, but it you feel like a fish out of water. Um, and the the idea, especially, I think that so many women who have careers before becoming a mother, that you said so beautifully is the ambition and the willpower were still there, you know, to do the other things that were still important to you before having kids, but the capacity, and uh remember if that's exactly how you said it, but the capacity is different, right? Um, and I'm curious for you, when you had gone back to work after your first, you know, nine months later, how were you able to juggle? I guess what did that transition look like for you, you know, getting back into your your day-to-day life working. And how how did you manage, like, I guess, juggling that capacity that you actually have, like this is what I can feasibly do in a day, versus like this is what I really want to like achieve and do at work in my career?

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I'm gonna change the language because what I want to say is I failed miserably. But what I'm going to say is the business. failed me.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Yes. Oh, you just gave me chills. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

So and I'll probably get emotional because I don't know if you swear on this podcast. No, say say say however it comes to you. Was fucked. Yeah. That's the only way to put it. I had been at this business for three years. And um I so I came back after nine months and some women take longer and I wanted to negotiate um to come back three days a week for three months. And just you know through the person I was reporting to was just met with objection. And and I think reflecting on the anxiety I'd been feeling, you know, I obviously was heightened and um I went straight to HR to negotiate what I could get. And then I just found that there were just a few things that were kind of happening that I could see I was being set up to need to say oh I can't do that. So then at some point down the line they would say well you can't do your job because you didn't do this, this and this. And then the other side of that was my eldest didn't sleep for like two years. So I was getting up six, seven, eight times a night I was very unhealthy because I was living on sugar. Like we'd be eat a box of cookies every day because we were so sleep deprived.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

So you know the exercise wasn't there the social's not there because you're never on the same schedule as your other friends. Because my little one didn't really sleep we just walk around town with her in the pram because that's the only time I could get her to sleep. So I think I was walking something like 40 kilometers a week when I was on because I was just put her in the pram and just doing an adventure. So you know all those challenges as well and going back to a business where there was like an office requirement and there was no flex um in that. So if I'd had a really bad night and I'd woken up really late trying to get into the city for work, maybe arriving at 9.30 and just feeling really terrible.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

And not having that option to go, oh, if I've woken up late, maybe I'll log in at home today and I can get online at 830.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

So I quickly pivoted. So I was back at that job I think for about four months um fortunately saw just a contract come up at another company and managed to get a 12 month contract. And I just there was no strategy in that role other than I can do it. Something more survival company correct correct um and that really helped so that gave me the opportunity I think the requirement was to be in the office one day a week the boss that I reported to he has three daughters.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Oh nice.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So he completely understood if I'd had a really bad night I could send a text message and just say I'll be in the office by 930.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

And there was no looking if I needed to duck out at 430 to do a pickup there was no um I didn't feel bad about it. And so that really helped me to go to an environment where it was far more supportive. And interestingly when my contract ended I found out I was 10 weeks pregnant with my second daughter and so I actually made the decision. I was so burnt out professionally I'd been trying to make some phone calls to line up another job and just the people I was speaking to I was I was inquiring about four days a week and the response I would get is it's a full-time job. Which I'm sure many, many people have been faced with yeah so I made the decision I actually just took some time off. So I had what would it have been like six or seven months off before the birth of my second child and I thought I was going to do all these things but upon reflection I was so burnt out from that experience. Yeah um I think I watched all 24 seasons of Law and Order I don't know if that was the best thing for anxiety but at least it was a nice distraction such a good show. Yeah yeah exactly um well it was nice to be watching other things happen and not it all just be in my head. Yeah not your not your own drama yeah and then I've been very fortunate so similar I've gone back to um professional work at the beginning of this year and was very fortunate um some roles were coming up and it's someone I've worked with before um I also learnt a lot. So my positioning was how do you feel about four day working week?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

And so we've agreed it's kind of a trial so it's on me to make it work. But I currently um you know have one day off a week and that's where I have the girls at home and to be honest we watch TV until lunchtime because everyone's so exhausted from four days of work and daycare. Yeah um and I'm just finding I have I found the appropriate person to report to so I have the autonomy. Yeah um I have the space but you know you've got to perform and you've got to get your results and um it's really restored my faith in humanity um after having such a tough start first time around.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Yeah. I wonder it it's inspiring to hear your story because I feel like you've you've mentioned a couple times with like the idea of negotiating something or basically saying what you need in order you know to make it work. And even if the people don't come back with like 100% meeting your needs, at least you have some sort of wiggle room and I I feel like there's so many mothers out there who potentially might be in jobs where they they don't feel like they have a voice or they're too afraid to speak up and you know ask for what they need.

SPEAKER_02 29:17

So I'm curious for you did you like was there anything that inspired you or made you feel empowered to like actually speak up and say like you know and I know in the first situation it didn't necessarily work out right they this they didn't award you the three day a week work week but um like what would you what would you say made you feel empowered to do that and what would you say to another mom who's in a similar situation to like get her to speak up for herself I think initially I naively thought it's like when I returned with my first it's 2023 like everyone talks about equality everyone talks about doing the right thing for a mom yeah um that doesn't always translate into the person who holds the power which is the person who employs you what I would say to other moms is absolutely know your rights like no know what you can and can't do but also think about you know the business and the job that you're doing so if you're in a um producing role like you need to act also sit down and go could I actually achieve what the business requires of me in four days a week and go go to the business with a solution. So I found second time around being more how do you feel about this? And here's how I see I would see that work. And you know that one day a week I have off it doesn't mean I can never work on that day. Yeah but it costs me$400 to put my girls in care. So if I need to work that fifth day you need to pay me for it. Yeah and if there's a meeting on on that day and we had one last week and we've got a big event coming up so it's an ad hoc meeting so I dialed in but if you were meant to do this on Tuesday and you dropped the ball and you're now urgently wanting me to come into that meeting that's not going to happen. And so choose your audience are they going to be receptive and if they're not you like sadly you need to decide if it's worth even having that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Where you see that you can have that conversation think about what you need but you also need to come from a lens of making sure that you can fulfill the business's requirements.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Yeah. I the way that you you said it earlier when you were initially sharing how you know that it might make you emotional re rehashing some of this and this idea that you know it's 20 at the time it was 2023 like you know you feel like the world is making all this progress um and here we are in 2026 and it feels like we we've in a lot of ways especially here living in the United States have like regret with so much progress. I remember feeling like when I became a mom after the pandemic in um 2022 I felt I felt this this other side of me unlock almost that and I don't know if you felt this too in the way you were describing it was almost it was definitely a sense of disillusionment with how the world and the working world especially worked. I I was a teacher and I I guess I had this like rose colored glass these rose colored glasses on of what I thought I would be getting you know as far as benefits and things like that go when I became a mom. But you know did not get diddly squat pretty much as far as work um you know and maternity leave and and things like that and pay but I it also unlocked like a little bit of a deep sense of rage in me I feel like for how the world works. Yeah. And of course there was a lot of sleep deprivation in there too that can kick up some of the age but um I I I'm curious because you live in Australia like what do you feel like Australia um and and you're in you're in Sydney you said yes and I I know that there's you know different regions and everything but would you say that the policies that are in place right now like there are some good things happening with having more workplace rights and benefits for for working mothers or do you feel like there's still a lot of room that they have for improvement look there's always room for improvement.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

I believe and and especially speaking to some people in the states like Australia we're very lucky. Yeah so most and I'll say like full-time permanent job so if you're a casual um or a contractor you wouldn't necessarily be eligible for this you are eligible for up to 12 months off unpaid and you can extend it to two years.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Most businesses now will pay you approximately 12 to 14 weeks.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

If you're really lucky like my other half his business paid him for 20 weeks of paternity leave. Nice so there's a real shift of um it's parental leave not just maternity so um the government also provides 20 weeks pay at minimum wage if you meet certain requirements which unfortunately because I ended my contract I wasn't eligible for yeah um so there is absolutely the right frameworks being built and being created where the challenge happens is some smaller businesses will kind of circumnavigate the legislation and find ways to um not pay or um I know someone who they withheld half her maternity leave and they pay it when you return.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

Wow it's like holding if they want you to come yeah yeah um and unfortunately a lot of businesses will often take that opportunity to make a woman redundant but still yeah um but we are very lucky the biggest challenge is all these companies have these amazing policies they talk about flexible work they talk about you know the leave you're entitled to um it's now being policied for a lot of companies you get bereavement leave for a miscarriage oh so you can have up to five days yeah um but then it's who's sitting there who's the person you need to say hi boss I just had a miscarriage can I have a few days off or um you know my example in my first return to work like if you go on the job search and you look for a part-time job there's nothing there yeah or you can go and get minimum wage when you've got yourself to an executive level um so it's finding it's probably the stigma around it is the big challenge and finding businesses that are willing to to have a go or or take take a moment um and in my situation we may sit down in four months and go it didn't work for this reason this reason and this reason yeah but finding someone who's willing to give it a go and letting you prove that you can achieve not working five days a week yeah it it it's wild to me in this day and age um because while I while I now do not have like a a full-time regular job and I'm in the world of entrepreneurship my husband is very much in the corporate world where he works eight to five every day and it is wild to me um that so many businesses and workplaces don't see the value of either shortening the the length of the workdays you know so instead of it being you know eight hour days it's six hour days or something like that or like how you were describing with taking one of the whole workdays out and then just having it in four because I feel like there's so much more productivity when you allow people more freedom to do the things in their personal life, right? Because when they don't have the time to do that then they become more burned out and then it becomes harder to do their job and you know to stay focused and all of those things. So it's wild to me that I feel like we're having to pioneer and like like you are basically like trial and error in this with someone because you advocated for yourself and it's like it feels like we're a little bit in the wild west of re redefining what work even looks like for parents and just at large in this day and age. So it's so inspiring you know to hear your story and just how you are you know taking it taking it like a little bit at a time figuring out what feels good for you and also being brave enough to like stake what what you need and figuring it out as you go. So I love that.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

And absolutely um the nature of my role I have activity targets like I've got to make phone calls and I've got to have meetings. So I'm got to make sure every week that I hit my numbers. Yeah because we also know that if you don't the first justification from a business will be oh it's cause you don't work that extra day yeah and so it does add pressure right and it does um like I'm very sensitive if people say oh you don't work like I I have worked and I've spoken to a couple of amazing women um both from the US who help mothers with their negotiations and preparing for those conversations around maternity leave. And so that gave me the insight to focus on positive language. So I don't say I don't work that day I say I work four days and um I don't put an out of office on unless I know I'm absolutely uncontactable because the perception of an out of office and you know these are all the things that need to get better. Yeah but in the short term it's I've got a friend and she always says if everyone's playing hockey you gotta play hockey. Yeah don't play netball so um it's about learning how to you know I don't say oh I can't do that because that's my day off yeah I say are you okay if I don't attend that can you record it for me right and so it's it's I think I mentioned earlier like going with a solution not a problem.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

It's also it it sounds like a little bit of you know recognizing that the new system hasn't been fully built yet and so you have to figure out how you can navigate in the current system to we you know move closer to what that new system is because otherwise it doesn't serve you either um to just you know roll over and play dead and just you know be at everyone else's whim and and everything. So um I'd love to talk a little bit about your um current situation now. So um on this podcast we talk a lot about you know the idea of entrepreneurship and building more freedom in your life whether that is with starting a business but also you know following your dreams and your passions and things that you are passionate about. And so for you I'm curious what your um your your week I would I sometimes say day-to-day life but like what like a regular week looks like for you now you talked to us a little bit about that but what does it look like for you now you know having your two girls to care for having um you know working four days and also now having this incredible platform where you are you know raising the voices of other working moms. What does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I am in the trenches. Yeah so um and I think it's that part you speak about having more freedom. But I think before you get that freedom you've got to be in the trenches. Yeah for sure and so for me um I'm very fortunate uh my other half he's very you know hands on I mean we need to stop saying fortunate he's being a dad as dad should be in this modern world um so that gives me capacity absolutely yeah I um so my job has a bit of flex in it so I can um work from home um when I need to which extends your hours if you're not commuting not that we live far from the city um my girls are in childcare four days a week so we're very fortunate um we had our eldest in one childcare and when she went to preschool we needed to move her and we just found a really really warm center that both our girls are at. So when they're there like of course I think about them and I love getting the little update of photos and and things like that. But I don't worry about them because I know they're safe I know they're being cared for um at such a beautiful center so that like if your kids are somewhere that you're happy with them being you can get stuff done. You're not worried um when it comes to the podcast so I schedule some obscure hour interviews um fortunately speaking with people on the other side of the world makes you know 9 30 pm for me not be ridiculous for for you yeah um and so I schedule you know maximum two interviews a week so I got to that point where I was like you need to if someone books a Saturday night you can't do Friday night as well. Boundaries balance. Boundaries balance yeah um I'm getting a lot better at like managing my diary so making sure that you know there's no conflicts between my two worlds um making sure that I've got time to edit my episodes and probably the biggest thing for me is when it comes to the podcast the the conversation that I have is actually key. Yeah like what my reel looks like or what my post on Instagram looks like yeah I'd love it to look better. And I do have a lovely graphic designer that's building me some templates um but just being okay with it being okay. Yeah and until I can get to a point I mean goal one is to monetize in some way to get a virtual assistant. That's phase one. And I think it's just just kind of accepting that this is where I'm at and having to you know sometimes I'll look at things and go oh that's so daggy or um my episode this week there's a weird 30 second pause because there's an issue with the tech of course but just accept but just accepting it. Like I've posted it like moms will be happy three 30 seconds of silent meditation before you hear my episode. Um and probably before I had kids, I would have been so upset about that and so stressed about that and so concerned about optics. Um because I am doing a lot right now, like I want other mums to know that like it's hard. I'm struggling, I'm treading water, but I just believe so much in what I'm doing that I don't want to let go of it. And I don't want to gaslight and say, oh, it's amazing. And I do this on Tuesdays and this, like some nights I go to bed at midnight and I should have gone to bed earlier because then the baby wakes up. Um, but this is where we're at and it will get better.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah. I I 1000% relate to that, Deborah, with it being in the trenches. And thank you for being so honest too, because I think it like you're saying, it's so important for moms to know, just you know, for anyone who's thinking of starting something or following their passion, it's like it's it doesn't make everything perfect immediately. Like you still are juggling all the responsibilities of day-to-day life and you're putting yourself out there and it's scary. I also love how you said, um, you know, just like not doing like it's okay if it's not perfect, right? Um, I feel the same way about a lot of what I do. It's like it is the message there. That's what I'm going for. Like, I literally I put a podcast reel up yesterday and I spelled my own sister's name wrong. I was thinking of going back to change the um the cover image of it, and I was like, I don't, I don't care enough. Like it is what it is. Yeah, so we can just pronounce her name differently when they when they read it. But yeah, I think I guess for you, do you think it's just like being a mom that you you've learned to be okay? Because I know before I had kids stuff like that, I was an English teacher, first of all. So like spelling things wrong, I was like, I would always have to go back and fix things, but now I'm just like it's good enough. Do you think for you like motherhood has helped you just you know, especially because you said you were a type A person um before? Do you think motherhood has changed you in that sense of like, you know, we're just going for the best possible result? It doesn't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yeah, it's absolutely humbled me. Um and having yeah, having to your point, is the message there? Is it going to fulfill a need? Um and kind of remembering, like, it's so hard to just focus on what you're doing. And like I think when I first saw all your stuff in your podcast, I'm like, oh wow, she's like so professional and everything's perfect, and and so wanting to be really open about it's scrappy sometimes. Yeah, because what people see and what the experience is are two different things. Um, but I even think about my three and a half year old loves to bake. And especially when we had the baby, that was how we bond, like we do some baking, which is insane because if it was my first, there's no way I'd be baking when she was two weeks old. Um but initially it used to be really stressful for me because I'm like, well, we need a cup of this and we need a cup of that, and we need this much milk. And I liken it to the to me in general. Now, like we were baking the other day, and I'm like, sure, that's enough flour. You just mix the flour and the sugar, and you let me know when you're ready for the next thing. Oh yeah, that yeah, the consistency's okay, that's enough milk. And I think that just describes the change in me and being like, it's not, we're not taking this cake somewhere. We're not, it's not someone's birthday cake, we're just making a cake at home.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

It's okay to just be okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Yeah. I I feel like it it it's lovely when you hear people actually just like say that because it I feel like it lets the other women and mothers who are watching you just like take a deep breath and like relax a little. It's like I feel like sometimes we feel like we have to do everything so perfectly, and it's like that's not it's not possible, number one, to do that in every area. Um, but it's just nice to know that you know, I I feel like I almost trust people more now when I see them making some sort of mistake, or like or you know, or you know, videotaping or showing themselves in a reel where you know they they look a little bit messy, and I'm like, okay, like they're they're like a mom, they actually get it.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Yeah. And even, you know, us lining up the interviews. Like I'd booked, I think we'd both booked, I had some clashes. Yeah, then I just had to go, I just need to reschedule everything and I just need to push it. And I was so like embarrassed and mortified. Oh my god. But it's that like, but it's locking that out and being like, but this like if I did that interview whenever that was, I would have been in such a rush.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Um, but just being better at just accepting this is where you're at. And I had um, I've got a really exciting interview coming up um with someone that's built some cool businesses in Australia, and I had to reschedule her and I was mortified, but I also just had to go, this is life. Yeah. And I just said, Hey, we've got a clash. Can you do this date or this date? And she's like, either are fine.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Oh, yeah. We like make this story in our head.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

And so you just have to accept that like if you're ever going to get a pass to not have everything lined up and all your ducks in a row, it's this life stage.

SPEAKER_00 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

I I And the alternative is do nothing.

SPEAKER_00 50:33

Yeah. So I I have two quick questions left for you. Um, because I know we're we're getting on almost an hour here, but the first one is I guess with this talk of like doing things messy, you said you were thinking of doing this podcast for a while before you had started it. What do you think was the ultimate switch for you that you were like, okay, I'm I'm just gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

It was having my second child um and having a job lined up. So um had I done it when I was in the trenches of that return to work, it would have been no one would have listened. I would have been so bitter and so negative and so dark. Um, so I think the birth of my second child really kind of closed that chapter for me. Um, and I started having clarity around what I actually was trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Um, and then the second part was it was like the September, I'd lined up a job for January. So I was like, this is literally your window to get this started. If you don't do this, you'll never do it and you'll regret it.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yeah. Well, I'm so happy that you did it because I feel like it's it's inspiring to see and just hear the the real honest experiences of mothers who are navigating motherhood and all the things that come after that, with like what your professional life, career, you know, going after anything that you're passionate about looks like. So uh my last question is for you. You you told us a little bit about this, but if you're comfortable sharing, is there anything else with um uh matrescence at work that you know you're excited about down the horizon?

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Uh yeah, I do have some exciting things. I'm not sure when you're gonna release this, so I'll tell you, and then we can decide if we release it. Um, but I've actually been invited to sit on a panel about matrescence at a Mother's Day morning tea up in Brisbane in May. So um I'm so excited. I am not an expert on matrescence, but I am an expert on my experience. Um, and all I want to do is help women not feel alone. And if I can share my experience and help people have a better one, then that's my job done.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah. That's amazing. Good for you. And I I love the how you said I'm I'm not an expert, but like I'm an expert at what I, you know, my experiences. I feel like that's such an integral flip that, you know, when you decide to go after something you care about, you have to make it's like, yeah, there's going to be someone else out there who probably can do this better than me or who might know more than me, but like I still am the expert in, you know, the way that I have experienced this. And I think it's so beautiful because I think every human out there just has there's something unique about, you know, your life experience and the way that you have navigated everything that you've experienced as a mother that other people out there need to hear from you specifically. Um, so it's so beautiful of you framing it. Like I I'm an expert at my experience, at least, and it's other people need to hear that. So that's so beautiful. Well, thank you so much, Deborah, for joining us today and just being vulnerable and sharing all about your story and um the exciting things that are going down at Matrescence at work. So uh where can listeners who are listening to this episode find you?

SPEAKER_02 54:04

So I'm should be on all podcast platforms, um, but the main ones Spotify, Apple. I can't remember. I'm I think I'm on the music. No one listens there yet, but all the others, I should be there. Um, and the best way to find me is on Instagram, Matrescence at Work Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Amazing. Well, I will definitely be sure to put all of that information in the show notes so listeners can find you. And um, I'm excited to continue to see everything that you're building because, like I said, it's so inspiring. And I think just, you know, anyone who is either expecting their first child or any child child for that matter, and like, you know, is trying to still figure out how to navigate their work situation and what life after having kids looks like for them, I think they will find so much um solace and inspiration from listening to the voices that you are raising um and also from hearing your story as well. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on this for us today.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Thanks for having me, Paige. It's been great speaking with you.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Thank you. If this episode resonated with you, definitely be sure to check the show notes so that you can go find Deborah and Matrescence at Work podcast on both Instagram and wherever you listen to your podcasts. Um, I think if anyone on here is who's listening is still navigating a really tricky situation with still working for a job that doesn't feel like it's the best fit for you, or you're expecting a baby and trying to mentally wrap your head around how work will look like for you once you know you become a mom. Deborah has so many inspiring stories to share on her platform that can, you know, give you some ideas about what to do next. And if you are an ambitious mom who is looking to start or grow your own business so that you can have more freedom and joy in your life as an ambitious mom, um, no matter what season of motherhood you are in, also check the show notes that you can find some helpful free resources and also book a one-to-one call with me so that you can figure out your next right step for your business with some support from someone who totally gets how chaotic motherhood can be while you're also trying to juggle all the goals and the dreams that you have for yourself as an ambitious woman. Thank you for listening to another episode of this podcast, and I can't wait to see you inside of the next one!