World-Class Mentalists: We'll Pay You $100,000 To PROVE We're FAKE!

What's the difference between truly knowing someone and thinking you do? Sonya Love and Agon Love interview world champion mentalists Marina Liani-Harrington and James Harrington, who reveal the psychology behind reading people and how mastering human connection transforms both magic and real life. They share candid insights into relationship red flags, comfort zones that destroy intimacy, and the secrets to deeper, more meaningful partnerships.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

We are constantly accused of using secret electronic devices to communicate with each other. Now the reality is that we work on this for hours every day, around a thousand objects per day.

SPEAKER_07 0:09

And we did Ukraine's Gat Time, then America's Got Time, then the World Championship. And every year we give ourselves this crazy challenge to work towards too.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

What's behind that mentality when you set yourself on a goal that is very high?

SPEAKER_03 0:22

We have full faith in each other because I spent most of my life not pushing myself. I didn't ever imagine that any of this would be possible. I was a close-up magician for years, and I thought that was it. I was never like this until we met.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And what it really takes to know someone beyond words. What's the difference between knowing that you're with the right person versus being with someone that you don't feel is meant for you?

SPEAKER_03 0:52

The relationship I was in before was so bad that I decided I didn't want to be in a relationship again. For the first time in my life, I learned to enjoy my own company.

SPEAKER_07 0:59

But in my previous relationship, when I wasn't happy, I couldn't really see it because I was always giving myself excuses. That's how everybody is feeling. Everybody's going through stuff. No relationship is perfect. And when I started realizing that I'm putting myself in a comfort zone, it's hard to tell this to somebody because it's hard to realize that you're in the comfort zone.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

How do you master connection?

SPEAKER_07 1:19

Could you lie to each other?

SPEAKER_01 1:21

How do you fight?

SPEAKER_05 1:22

What is the toughest thing you have navigated outside of magic?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

Are you ready, Marina? I'm ready. Can you tell me what this is?

SPEAKER_07 1:29

Those glasses. Is it a black hair pant? This feels like a book.

unknown 1:33

What?

SPEAKER_03 1:34

First three digits of the number on it.

SPEAKER_08 1:36

Nine. No. Seven. No. Eight.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

No!

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Today's episode is very special because, and this is not a clickbait, you have an opportunity to win one hundred thousand dollars by commenting something. But I'll get there later because before that, we are in the room with greatness.

SPEAKER_05 2:08

Legends.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

With world champions of mentalism, which is basically like Olympics for magic. I know there was something that happened, and I it just says so highly of your performance. The judges thought that you had fake members at the audience because of how good the trick went.

SPEAKER_07 2:30

It was unbelievable, basically. We can say that we fooled the judges because that was really cool. That was a cool moment. It was scary, but cool at the same time because that's your goal. But at the same time, ooh, what if they don't believe us? And then we get disqualified. But it turned out well for us.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

We had plans for anything that could possibly go wrong. We're overthinkers. So we we made sure that we were covered no matter what, but it went as well as it could have. Came off stage, massive high, and then suddenly we see this kind of rumbling with the jury. And someone comes up to us and says they think you're using a stooge, and that's instant disqualification. If you're using a stooge. So we had to we had to meet them in their office a couple of hours later, which the closest feeling I can describe is that felt like being called to the headmaster's office when you're in school.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

I dropped a bomb, let's be honest. $100,000, right? Could you please explain to our viewers why are you offering a hundred thousand dollars and for what?

SPEAKER_03 3:26

So in this day and age, there's a lot of things that you can do with technology. We are constantly accused of using secret electronic devices to communicate with each other as the method of our act. Now the reality is that would be the easy path. What we did is we do it, and magicians would know we do it the old-fashioned way. Okay. Which requires a crazy amount of uh of skill and practice. We we work on this for hours every day, and we have done since we met. So to dispel that theory, we have this offer. If anyone that can can prove that we use any kind of secret electronic devices to communicate with each other with each other, or if they can prove that the blindfold is anyway in any way gimmicked or she can see through it, something like that, they get $100,000. And we have a genuine process for this where we've only had one so far because everyone keeps backing out at the last minute. Um, but I will we will talk about this on Zoom and we'll come up with a test that we're both happy with that will convince them. And if we complete the test, all they have to do is post on social media that they tried to claim and failed. That they were wrong.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

And if we can't complete the test, we wire them $100,000.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I think there's no better way to start this episode before we dive into the love and the relationship behind your success than starting by you showing us your magic. Yeah, give us a taste. Our viewers watching this, good luck. You may have a chance or not, but there's a process. Alright, let's do it.

SPEAKER_08 4:58

Google it.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

First of all, let's hit the blind pole.

SPEAKER_08 5:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Let's get the admin out of the way. Can you have a look at this? Maybe you can both check it out. And just make sure that there are no secret electronic devices hidden inside there.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Are we ready? Yes. I am so excited.

SPEAKER_03 5:17

All right, let's let's let's warm up a little bit first. Um, can you start shuffling these cards for me? Of course. This is one of the ways that we practice uh at home. There are more combinations in a single pack of cards than there are stars in the observable universe. Wow. That doesn't sound true, but it is 52 factorial is one followed by 68 zeros. The number is massive.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

But wherever you finish shuffling, that's going to be your order. I have finished. And also it's worth noting that we'll give you the blindfold at the end and the cards. Okay. Okay, so you can have both. Okay. Hold your hands like a bowl like this. Are you ready, Marina?

SPEAKER_07 5:54

I'm ready.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Can you see the cards?

SPEAKER_07 5:56

The first one I believe is a red card. It's diamonds. I believe it's three of diamonds.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Good. Can you send me this one?

SPEAKER_07 6:05

This is a black card. Two of clubs.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

This one?

SPEAKER_07 6:13

Okay. Why don't you start dealing the cards? And Sonia, could you say say stop anytime you want? Okay. Stop. Sonia, I have a feeling that you've stopped exactly at a five of spades.

SPEAKER_03 6:35

Five. Of course, those cards are for you. But I don't want you to think this is some kind of a card trick, so we're gonna try this with I'm I I'm lost for rewards, literally. You have your handbag with you?

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Please start pulling random objects from your handbag. We'll attempt to describe what those items are.

SPEAKER_05 7:02

No, like my own stuff. I'm not gonna make any sounds.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Can you tell us what this is next?

SPEAKER_06 7:10

Okay, so the first item's quite simple. I think those could be glasses.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Um, the colour?

SPEAKER_07 7:17

Uh it's a beautiful, like kind of like caramel brown color. Lovely.

SPEAKER_03 7:25

Please tell me what this is, too.

SPEAKER_07 7:26

Oh, this is a hairband. Hold on, is it a black hairband? It's a black hairband.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

It's crazy. Why don't you pull out a load of stuff? Let's just let's let's let's just see what this is, would you?

SPEAKER_07 7:38

Okay. This feels like a book.

unknown 7:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

This is a book. Uh well done. Um will you try to tell me the first three digits of the number on it?

SPEAKER_08 7:49

Nine. No. Seven. No. Eight.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

No! And you're facing the book my way. That's insane. Please don't worry about anything. All is good. What is this?

SPEAKER_06 8:02

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 8:04

Oh. Okay. Perfect. Carry on.

SPEAKER_06 8:06

Okay, so this is something. It smells familiar. It smells like maybe a deodorant. Like um. Is it a Roland deodorant by chance?

SPEAKER_03 8:16

Now the brand?

SPEAKER_07 8:17

Is it uh Nivea, right? No! And this was not even I knew that smell. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

Wow, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Um, we are having some sensitive information, okay.

SPEAKER_07 8:31

Ooh, love it.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

I want to know what this is.

SPEAKER_07 8:33

Okay. Feels like a wallet.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Good, the color?

SPEAKER_07 8:37

Is it a beautiful red wallet, James?

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Quite right. Okay. Tell me what this is.

SPEAKER_07 8:42

Okay, so lots of personal information. I like this. Um, there is an ID. It could be an Emirates ID.

SPEAKER_03 8:49

Good. Well done, perfect. Uh, do you know the date of birth, okay?

SPEAKER_07 8:52

Yes, it's in October, late October 29th, I want to say. No. She didn't even pull it out. She knows my birthday.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

I mean, I guess we could have found out. We could have, but we didn't.

SPEAKER_05 9:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay, okay. Let's do a few more things. More things. Okay, I mean.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Let's try and speed this up. If we can get quite a few things out on the table.

SPEAKER_05 9:10

Okay, do I have more things?

SPEAKER_03 9:11

See how we get on.

SPEAKER_07 9:12

Okay.

unknown 9:12

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Can you tell me what this is?

SPEAKER_07 9:15

Okay, okay. Well, easy. That's a phone. Um, an iPhone, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

That's correct. See something about the iPhone.

SPEAKER_07 9:22

Ooh, let's try something with this phone. In fact, uh, guys, any of you, can you hold it face down on your palm? And just gently touch the back, like this. Okay. And as you do that, I will try to sense the remaining battery percentage on this phone. Just keep it locked, okay? Just hold your finger on the back of it. I believe this phone is charged to either 63% or actually no, 64% battery at this moment.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

No! And by the way, I have seen you take this phone out. You barely even opened it. She knows your battery percentage better than you.

SPEAKER_05 10:05

You wouldn't know. That's for sure. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

So this is what it's like to experience magic in real life.

SPEAKER_05 10:13

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

May I use one of your bank cards?

SPEAKER_07 10:16

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Wow. Trust tell me the type of card this is.

SPEAKER_07 10:20

So this feels like a Visa type.

SPEAKER_03 10:22

Very good. Where's it from?

SPEAKER_07 10:23

Is it from the UK?

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Nice. And the bank?

SPEAKER_07 10:25

Uh this could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Nice, brilliant. Do you know the bank?

SPEAKER_07 10:28

That's Revolute, correct?

SPEAKER_03 10:30

I'll know that bank. That's correct. Anything else?

SPEAKER_07 10:32

Uh yeah, uh, let's try something else. So hold it like this in your hands. And okay, so you may not remember all the numbers on that card. No. Yeah, even though you might use it every single day, right? But all of those numbers are locked somewhere in your mind. So now I need you to think about the last time you used it. And I will try to tell you the three-digit security code. You're doing great. I'm picking up on the first digit already. I think you're sending me a two, followed by a four. And I have a feeling there is a six as well. So the two, four, six.

SPEAKER_05 11:19

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

This is in honor of our younger.

SPEAKER_05 11:23

Alright. Wow. First of all, what what the hell? That was insane. It was insane. How does it how does it feel in that moment? Do you feel like two separate minds? Do you feel like you're one mind? Like, what does the connection between the two of you feel like when this is happening?

SPEAKER_07 11:42

That's a good question. I from my point of view, we definitely I definitely feel like we're just one at that moment. Like I'm inside his head. That's how I feel. I cannot obviously I can't see anything, so I'm just a complete darkness. All I hear is just his voice and his thoughts. That's all. You hear his thoughts. Yeah. That's how I can explain it.

SPEAKER_05 12:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 12:04

I I almost can hear the way he's processing things, the way he's going through. Like it's a weird connection that we have. But you as a couple, you probably have the same thing. I bet you do.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

There are synchronicities that happen between us that are.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Like when you finish each other's words and stuff like that. Or like I I will think of something and he will say it. Or he will think of something and I will say it. But this is on another level.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

This on like steroids.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Yeah, it's it's um there's a lot of trust required. And on the surface, the very basics of this are what everyone does all the time. So it's as simple as if let's say a terrible example, but it's all I got. Let's say you're you go, I'm gonna go and grab some beers with the with my mates, and she goes, sure. You know what that means. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 13:03

In a nutshell, there's an energy beyond the wall. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

So you you spend your time practicing this act hours upon hours every day.

SPEAKER_08 13:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

And you have a an invisible, powerful connection between the two of you.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Yeah, although it's very important to mention that it's not it it's not psychic.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Uh we don't we don't believe that we have any of those abilities. We think that all of this stuff is is natural and science-based.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

With your incredible connection, have you ever had to go through difficulties of like not ever being able to even say a white lie because one of you would read that there's something off? How do you then navigate everyday life when all you spend is mastering connection?

SPEAKER_05 13:54

I'll paint this scenario for you. It is Marina's birthday, it's coming up, and you want to surprise her with something incredible, but you don't want her to know. And somehow you've gotten like her friends involved or like her family involved, and she's not supposed to know. Could you keep that from her?

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Yes, I think I could. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 14:15

Okay. Something like that, he could. And he and he did. Yeah. He surprised me a lot of times before.

SPEAKER_05 14:20

So you could keep something from each other, but you could not lie to each other. Is because there is a slight difference, right? You could withhold a piece of information, but could you say something that was not truthful?

SPEAKER_03 14:34

I think that would be harder because we know know each other s so well. And and again, that's it it's not anything to do with us being supernatural. It's it's to do with just knowing each other and the amount of time we spend with each other means that we know each other's towels. We we know everything about each other.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

You're saying, of course, this is all natural, there's no you're not psychic and anything. What's the cost of you have the glamour, you you have received all of these accolades and your world champions. What is a price that you pay?

SPEAKER_03 15:08

I guess the price we pay is the amount of work that we have to put in. So it's the sweat equity that goes into the act. So we would usually wake up, so we we practice by challenging each other with with objects and and things. I will go through random things, and AI has helped massively because we can get AIs to generate just random things, come up with crazy stuff that we never could have guessed that we would get. And then I'll go through, I'll look at the things, and Marina will try and guess what it is. And we do that with probably around a thousand objects per day, which takes multiple one-hour sessions throughout the day.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

A thousand a day.

SPEAKER_07 15:43

At least, yeah. If something big is coming up, then we will make it double down, double, triple, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

This is something relatable to us in some ways. Perhaps we don't do a thousand objects a day, but we've been working for a long time. And we know that when you when you work together as a relationship, there are moments where the lines get blurry and you start being colleagues, right, at work and lose the relationship aspect of being together, right? Do you face these issues and how do you deal with that as a relationship?

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Sometimes it is very important that when we're not working, we don't discuss it. It's hard to do that. So we have those we try.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

You go on a date and you don't start saying the objects and stuff, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yeah. And and our our way of relaxing, our relationship side, is being at home watching TV with our dogs. That's our favorite thing to do. Time, moment, eat some crappy food. And that, yeah. So whenever we've got time to do that, that's what we'll do. Now we do manage to have dates and things like that, but we usually save those for when we're traveling because we travel so much.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

It's really fascinating where people accomplish being excellent at something, right? And you uh you sometimes use the word obsession, right? I wonder how are you the balancing force when he's working too much, you bring him back.

SPEAKER_07 17:08

100%. I have to remind him what time it is, I have to remind him that he needs to eat. I cook lunch, and then okay, it's time, take a break, have some tea, you know, like I try, because he just never stops. He is such a workaholic, and I admire that.

SPEAKER_05 17:23

I want to see what your life outside of your work looks like. So you said, of course, you like to connect, uh, watch TV, and and just I suppose you also just want to actually like wind down. And so that that's like a de-stressing type of thing. How do you find that you are staying in love and connected outside of work in a way that is deep? How are you knowing what's happening in each other's like emotional worlds?

SPEAKER_03 17:53

Well, for me, that's it's it's never the way that I feel about Marina has never changed. It it I fell madly in love at the beginning and it's never wavered throughout the whole time. And I mean, I've had relationships in the past, that it's never been like that. It's never been so consistent. And sometimes Marina worries that things are gonna change, and I keep having to read it. Look, it's never gonna change. She says you can't know that. Well, sure, I can't know that, but basically, like it's been eight years now. Yeah, wow. And like, come on, like this is forever. And it I it's I couldn't be in a happier place. And I think the fact that Marina just makes me better, I think we make each other better, and I think we get along, we laugh together. Um, it's more than just passion. I think the important part is just being able to laugh together and have a good time together and be genuinely yourself.

SPEAKER_07 18:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

I think that makes a huge difference. Uh, what about for you?

SPEAKER_07 18:50

Yeah, well, we have our own love languages, right? My love language is probably just acts of service, and I try to like you like to give or receive. I like I like to give, yeah. Okay. I like to make sure that he's always fed, that he's looked after. If you know he's working for a week um on something and he will not notice that he has a lot of clutter around his table. I'll just go and pick it up for him just to make sure that, you know. Um, and then I I believe your accessor, like your love language is more like gifts and um you like to give me things and yeah, yeah, make me happy like that. Yeah. And cuddles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like we just read what we like and we just make it work like that. Yeah. I bet you guys do the same, right? You do you have the do you have different love languages?

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Uh it's funny, our love languages changed over the years of being together, like your especially. I think I stayed a little bit more within because mine were always words of affirmation. Yeah, so that was something I wanted to receive, but I also would love to give. I empower people around me by my nature. I love when people feel uh the best versions of themselves through my words, and I would do this for Sonia in the early days, and she didn't have that. Now you give this to me, yeah. But you at the beginning, when we did a test, she had this at the almost lowest.

SPEAKER_05 20:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

And it adapted to me.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

Yeah, yeah. I used to be so uncomfortable with both receiving any kind of praise and giving it, like it just felt yeah, yeah. I I've I noticed that when I was telling you how amazing you two are.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

You were like, I never know what to do.

SPEAKER_05 20:27

You don't want to look smug, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

No, it's not that.

SPEAKER_05 20:30

That's what I used to think as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

You connect the way I take it, because I'm pretty good with giving compliments and taking them as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

When someone gives me like a serious compliment, my instant energy and connection is to connect to the amount of work it took to do this. So, like, if someone tells me something about my character that I've worked on for a long time, I feel yes, I deserve to hear this because it took so much work. And for you guys, I mean, you practice every single day, you have the actual confirmation of the world that you're incredible. You went on talent shows, you make our jaws go on the ground, right? So it's so easy to be like, you know, like I'm excellent. I believe you guys are just like magic. Listening to the both of you, it's very clear that you balance each other out, right? But I know that both of you have been through difficult relationships before. What's the difference between knowing that you're with the right person versus being with someone that you don't feel is meant for you?

SPEAKER_07 21:34

When you are the one who is in a relationship, it's so hard to see it with your own eyes. It's hard to judge when you're someone else. You're looking into somebody else's relationship and be like, obviously, red flag, red flag. I feel like in my previous relationship, when I wasn't happy, I couldn't really see it because I was always giving myself excuses. No, but that's how everybody is feeling. This is how everybody's going through stuff. Relationship is perfect. And then when I started realizing that I'm kind of putting myself in a comfort zone, that it's just easier for me to just go through it like that rather than break free. And then so many things are gonna change, and my life is gonna go upside down. And when you think about that, you're thinking, oh no, I'd rather just brace myself and just go through it because I believe everybody's going through the same thing. But then when you're realizing that, oh no, you are doing this to yourself when you were kind of like putting yourself in this box, and this is your comfort zone, you're kind of just doing this through the whole time. That's not right. Um, it's hard to tell this to somebody because it's hard to realize that you're in a comfort zone. I feel like it took me years. Um, but that was my kind of realization.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:42

Oh, that's not right. I need to break free, I need to do something that makes me feel uncomfortable, but it's gonna take me somewhere, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:50

Was there a moment like a a thing, like a catalyst for those change?

SPEAKER_07 22:56

Yeah, I mean, that's uh the moment is, I guess, when you start realizing that the things that the odd the your partner does is not really a normal thing, and it's not something that you should tolerate or not something people are going through. And when you realize, ooh, okay, maybe that's yeah, not normal. Yeah, you remove those pink glasses and you're like, okay, right, uh, you need to change that. But again, how do you see that from from within? It's hard to see from within.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

I think one of the most important things that happened to me after the relationship that I was in before, it was so bad that I decided I didn't want to be in a relationship again.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:34

And during that time, for the first time in my life, I learned to enjoy my own company. And I realized that actually I like myself. And I think that was that was the for for me, that's the that's the reason that I ended up meeting meeting Marina. Because I I stayed single for like three years. And I was perfectly happy. I wasn't looking for somebody, and had I been in the state that I was in before, I probably would have settled somewhere along the line on those three years because of needing to be in a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

So not needing to be in a relationship meant that I had that luxury of just there was no rush. So then I was obviously still dating as a young dude. So and then I met Marina and I was like, holy shit, this is this is different now. Now, now I I actually want to be in a relationship, but I want to be in a relationship not because I want to be in a relationship, but because of Marina.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Yeah, I think when you don't need a relationship and you're content with yourself, it feels like anyone else that comes in is purely an addition to your already very full life, yeah, as opposed to someone trying to like fill a gap that you might feel or a validation that you want to achieve from somebody else externally. So I I totally see what you mean. And it's it's were you looking as well, or was it like I wasn't looking, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 24:51

So you both have to encourage her to have some time off. Yeah, I was just doing my own thing, and then yeah, it's just I mean, I wasn't Tinder. We met on Tinder. But I wasn't like So do we.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

We're all Tinder people.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I'm installed after one week of meeting her. Same story.

SPEAKER_05 25:07

When did you know and how did you know that she could be more than just your girlfriend, wife? Like, why did you believe I should bring her into the world of magic as well?

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Re really quickly for me, because I w we went on the first date, and I overcompensated because I knew I liked her and tried to play it cool. That's so cute to the point where she didn't think I was interested.

SPEAKER_07 25:33

I went back home. I thought, oh, he's not calling me back. He was so cold.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

She's a beautiful girl, and I don't want to like come on too strong. So you're overcorrected. Yes. Um, and then then we went on on a few dates. I think the the second or third date, we went to get new tattoos because we both had our ex's names tattooed on us. Right, okay. So we got them covered up.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

I heard it too.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

We didn't we didn't get new, we didn't create new mistakes, we just got them covered up. Um and then and then it kind of went the other way where I started to think she wasn't interested. Wow. Because we like on like the third or fourth day we hadn't kissed or anything like that. Like we'd we'd gone out a lot, and I kind of thought, I'm gonna do a Hail Mary here. So I did what I what I what I described in the time a high-risk maneuver. So I said So I could because I was thinking, okay, we've been on like four, it was like four or five dates, and I was thinking, I need to know if she's interested or if I'm just wasting my time. So the high-risk maneuver was something that was gonna answer that question. So I just said, Will you be my girlfriend? And it at that point she had like there was only a no or a yes at that point.

SPEAKER_05 26:47

50-50, good jump.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

And the uh the point was at the end of that, I'm either gonna get the answer I want, or I'm gonna know that this isn't going anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

And she said, uh, let me think about it. And then waited two hours and then told me yes.

SPEAKER_07 27:01

Well, what was happening in those two hours? Oh no, we were quite tipsy. It wasn't like so long. And it's a thick thing. Yeah, and obviously I liked him and I wanted to be in a relationship, but I didn't want to be like, I didn't want to look too eager or whatever. Yes, please, you know. I'll think about it.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

Yeah, okay. So initially we were just trying to play it cool, both of us, both of you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, no, it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

You know, you had a blindfold on earlier on, and we were talking about how it's such a it's such a powerful metaphor for a marriage, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:33

Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And so using that metaphor and why we even said to put the black on your on your eyes, right? It really is that sometimes in life, especially in marriage, like we individually are feeling in darkness. We're blind, right? And we need to let the other person lead us through a challenge. Have you had moments where you had to be led through a specific challenge in your life? To fully surrender. To surrender.

SPEAKER_07 28:03

Have you had to James? Definitely, because again, like when we met, when we started this, James had lifetime experience in magic in this new world that I was stepping into because I wasn't a magician before, I wasn't a performer before. I did some modeling, but that had nothing to do with even public speaking, like on stage and stuff. So I just let him guide me through that new um chapter in my life where he taught me how to obviously he taught me magic, he taught me how to be on stage. The first steps are he taught me everything. And I just believed him and I trusted him, and I just did everything he said because I knew I trusted his expertise, and I believe that he took us to the top. You were the one who took us to the top because of your this initial push and your initial idea to even create mind-to-mind.

unknown 28:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:56

I had no idea what it was.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Well, yeah, what Marina did was she she went from having no performance experience to being on BGT within the first six months. Oh, that wasn't. That's not crazy.

SPEAKER_05 29:09

That's what I was saying. It's crazy how you did that. I I would never have been able to guess that that performance was you relatively new to the scene. Really? No, thank you.

SPEAKER_07 29:18

Because I cannot watch that video. Really? I can't watch it. I will probably s I probably saw it once when it just came out, and then after that, maybe someone made me watch it again, and I was so cringe there. Really, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

I could I I I want to watch this stuff. Like she doesn't like watching. Because I I like seeing how much we've grown.

SPEAKER_05 29:36

What does it take for two people who've chosen to spend years together to actually like each other enough and love each other enough to want to continue doing that for another year and another year? What exactly are you doing right?

SPEAKER_07 29:51

We always challenge ourselves, right? That's the main point for us. Every year we come up with the most ridiculous, stupid, crazy idea to challenge ourselves that we are just it's so uh yeah. BGT. That was hard for us. And we only had like a month, uh, how many two months to prepare? That was the craziest first challenge. Then uh we did Ukraine's Got Talent, they approached us from Ukraine, then America's got talent at the top, then the world championship. And every year we give we give ourselves this crazy challenge to work towards too.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

What's behind that mentality when you set yourself on a goal that is very high? So you know there's a high pressure of being on the the world's eyes with this talent shows, and even more, hey, we're gonna try to become to win the Olympics of magic. What's your mentality behind it? When you get into this, do you not overthink it and you just go for it? Do you think we're gonna win this? What's the mental power?

SPEAKER_03 30:54

We try to keep ourselves mentally separate from outcome. We know how we want to do, but things like this started with BGT, like the the it was um our friend David Penn who uh got us on the show, he was the one that approached us about it. He is one of the best um stage illusionists in the world, and he's he's the leading expert in tech magic. Wow. So he because I'd just done close-up magic at the beginning, um, he helped us take that to the stage. And he's been instrumental throughout throughout the years in helping us with these things. But when it was BGT, we flew to his house in the UK and spent a couple months with him just working on the act, and it was terrifying and I hated it, and I was worried all the time. But then when we when we were done, I looked back on it as one of my favorite favorite experiences. So I know that whenever we do this, I always think, oh, for goodness sake, we're doing this again. It's another load of stress coming, but I know I know how how much better that is than not doing it.

SPEAKER_05 31:55

Yeah, it just it stretches you.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

You feel good after, absolutely and it keeps you sharp, and it's it's really bonding to go through this stress together. The challenge, yes.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Yeah, I it sounds like that's something that anyone can take away. Like you don't have to be a mentalist to be able to do this. Yeah, as a as a couple, you should be finding a way to challenge your couple, your relationship together.

SPEAKER_07 32:17

Like do something new or do something hard or stretch yourself and apply to you can apply this to everything, but for us as well, we like to overcompensate for anything we're getting ready for. Like let's say for the championship, for the world championship, we thought, what would it look like for us to be to just shine on stage? What is it that we need to do to look like we deserve to win? And we take that image, but then we overshoot and we always just double that challenge ourselves. We think that would look good, but how about if we did something completely crazy and then we just start working on it and we figure it out? And that's how yeah, I think that's how it keeps us sharp.

SPEAKER_05 33:00

Yeah, I think it's also quite a masculine thing to like want to achieve something and like see what you're made of and like keep going in that sense. I it's it's a quality that I hear a lot of high achieving men speak like this. And for you, I'm sure you also high achieving, it's obvious, but it's clear that you do it, he he's the instigator, right? Like he's dark. Yeah, so what makes you say yes?

SPEAKER_07 33:24

Oh, we both have this big vision of what it could be. Okay, what mind-to-mind can be. Okay, and we're nowhere near where I think we can be. Okay. We both can see that. He is the one who actually comes up with crazy things. Um, and he I think he he thinks bigger. Your imagination is so much bigger than mine. Like creatively, and then you have to explain things to me for me to see it, but then you take me into your vision, and I'm like, oh I feel like it's the same with us, like it's the same dynamic.

SPEAKER_05 33:56

He has these insane, crazy ideas, and typically our our work dynamic is such that he comes up with the ideas, and I I get into like the execution of it all as well. Like devise the plan, go into the nitty-gritty details and everything, you know. It's a big dream, like whatever it takes. He he's the visionary, and I'm like, okay, but what are the steps it's gonna take? What are the things that I could go wrong? What you know, how long everything, all of that stuff. I'm not saying that you're not as well, but you know, that that's the lanes that we take. Um, but it's the same. I sometimes struggle to see what he's seeing, but then when I see it, I'm like, whoa. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

So in in these moments, uh speaking from experience, especially in the early days nowadays, we don't have these problems, but I wonder because it's such a difficult task, you must have some fights sometimes and disagreements. How do you fight?

SPEAKER_03 34:46

We don't we never fight about work.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Really?

SPEAKER_03 34:49

We we will fight very rarely, but like maybe once every couple of months. It'll always be about it's always the type of fight where uh like two days later we can't remember what it was about. I know it's usually exactly it's usually just a byproduct of our our stress or something like that. At some point, it gets misaligned and we end up firing at each other instead of everything else.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

So it all that's all that causes our fights. It's just a slight misalignment at that moment of where we're venting.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Yeah. And do you feel like there's any skill you've picked up from your work that you can use in your relationship specifically with regards to fighting better or more effectively? Oh, good point.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

How to learn how to have conflict in a better way.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Well, we we we know exactly how how every fight's gonna resolve when we start it. So we we we already know how the process is gonna go, and it's just now it's just a matter of getting through that process and then we'll be fine. Okay, but it's usually it usually requires. How have you found this dynamic? So so usually it requires us to just stop talking for a little while. Okay, which is what we'll spiral.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

It's hard for me.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

But I realize that that's what's needed. Yeah, we just need to chill for a little bit, give it an hour or two, and then one of us will go to the other, we'll hug, and then it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

So who's the one who says, Okay, let's stop talking now?

SPEAKER_07 36:07

He he's the one who stops talking. I can't, it's really hard to do. And you it's gonna be silent.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Because I know that I know the will spiral otherwise. Okay, yeah. So it's just like, okay, at this point, okay, we need to just And you need closure.

SPEAKER_07 36:18

Yes, I just can't. I'm thinking, he's just quiet there. What is he thinking about? What's going through his mind? It's eating me alive. Um, I would rather just talk it out right now. But he he, I think I agree with that. You need to cool down. Yeah, because whatever you're gonna say in the heat, you you will not say it in two hours. But it's normally it ends with this.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

That's it.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

Yeah, just what just one of us is that's and is there one of you that does it better than the other, or are you both equally comfortable with like saying sorry or just coming back and repairing? I think we're both equal.

SPEAKER_07 36:53

That's amazing, and I think we take terms. I uh turns I I remember when was the last time that I did that, so I'm like, he's gonna do it.

SPEAKER_05 37:02

I've been doing it a lot lately, not this time. I've got it.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

You need a you need a couple. I think it's it's unhealthy to always have the other person being easy, of course.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

But have you been like this from the moment you met, or have you learned this?

SPEAKER_07 37:17

I think we've learned this, right? Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

So initially it was more spicy the fights. I'm not a big fan of like heavy conflict. I like debates, but I don't like conflict. I don't like anger. I think one of one of our things in the last couple of years was just to try to try to remove anger, because I think it's it's an unhealthy emotion. I think that I I think anger is useless. Um I think you can feel disappointment and you can feel like there are changes that you want to make, but that the that actual anger emotion is not a good thing.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

I think to vent it on the other is probably what just doesn't seem good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

I mean I'd rather if there's a sense of injustice, that would be a better way to describe something if you're upset about something. And being upset or sad about something is okay, but the the actual anger, I think, never did us any good because it then you start yelling at each other, and yelling, I don't think, ever solves anything. As soon as you start yelling, that's the time to like separate, and like we'll come back and talk about this in a while.

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Is it fair to say that you focus on intuition in order to be able to receive the messages that he's sending? Is intuition the right thing that you tap into?

SPEAKER_07 38:25

Uh it's a combination of things, and I would say intuition probably is a little bit in there. Because is there a reason why you're the one interpreting rather than you? We we can do it both ways, okay, but we realize that we are better within these roles that we have. And and and so, okay, intuition is one of it. What what else do you think is like there are there are a lot of things it's really hard to explain. That's kind of the big secret. No, no, no, not not your secret, but like what do you tap into, you know, like it's a lot of concentration. A lot of concentration. And sometimes maybe the the day is not right for me, and I'm not in the in the zone, and I'll I'll fail on something. You know, it happens. It doesn't happen lately as much because we're just working on it so much more for the past couple of years. But it happened before when I just didn't feel in the zone, I wasn't concentrated, I was my mind was somewhere else, and it just wasn't connecting as well. And so experience really helps out. Amazing.

SPEAKER_05 39:24

I I ask because a lot of women tell me that they struggle with connecting to their internal intuition. Okay. And it seems like you have really mastered this, you know. And of course, not everyone should be practicing, you know, it's not everyone's dream, but I wonder if there's a transferable tool that you've picked up that could help women tap into their inner world with so much precision, right? And and and I think trust.

SPEAKER_07 39:57

Well, for me again, like it only happened when I realized that we are a good fit to each other and we can trust each other. I I don't think at this point, if you ask me, I don't think I could do it with anybody else. Because again, once the blindfold goes on, uh all my sensors, senses are on, and it's almost I get the sixth sense. Obviously, I don't have a sixth sense, but I feel like the combinations of the um little bit of intuition, l uh a lot of concentration, lots of these things, they kind of come together and create the the sense that I have that sixth sense. You don't think you have that sixth sense? I don't think so, but uh maybe it looks like I do, maybe it feels in the moment that I do, but there are lots of things that come together to create that, and it's hard work as well.

SPEAKER_05 40:51

It's not just like you said, it is you really wanted to emphasize, and I of course understand why. It's not like you're a psychic, it's like hard, hard, hard work. So, would you say that anyone who worked just as hard as you could actually get this done because it's so literal?

SPEAKER_03 41:06

Um I I I would say I'd like to see them try.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Ah, hundred thousand dollars just purely because I know what I know what's gone into it.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

I know what we've both brought to the table in this. And um we're really realistic about our abilities and we're um realistic about where we stand in terms of acts that are like this. Um I think in the long run we want this to be we've always wanted to be known as the best in the world at what we do. That's all that's our that's our main focus.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

And you made it.

SPEAKER_03 41:49

We will never but but I I think And you now you have to keep it. I I think as so as soon as we get to the point where we think, okay, we're done now, that'll be the time to quit. Because I think I think now I want to I want to change this genre altogether, and we're we're working on a new challenge at the moment that's just come in and we the same kind of thing. I was like I was like, I don't want to do it. We've just done we've just won the world championships. Everyone's telling us not to do it. Yeah, you just won the world championship. Why do you you don't need to do that?

SPEAKER_02 42:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

And then I'm thinking, okay, we're not gonna do it. So we said no. And then it just starts eating me up eating me up. I'm like, but what if we did?

SPEAKER_05 42:24

The possibilities. What if? Yeah, what if it all works out? I can't let it go. I have to. What if it all works out? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

I wonder, okay, because I would like to connect to that idea. How do you achieve fulfillment if everything that you achieve is never enough?

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Because the journey, the journey to us is what's important. Because it's like that first time with BGT when I looked back and with with such fondness for those memories, that's why we do it.

SPEAKER_05 42:59

Not for the championship.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

And it's yeah, I mean, that process, that year of our lives. I mean, we Marina posted the thing, I don't do much on Instagram, but she posted the reel with all the stuff that we'd done in 2025. And I couldn't believe it. I was like, that's amazing. That's why we do it.

SPEAKER_07 43:16

Because the reason we did most of those things was because we were getting prepared for the championship. So we pushed ourselves to go to these places we would normally not go and do things that we normally wouldn't do.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

And also, I spent most of my life not pushing myself.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Right. Really?

SPEAKER_03 43:35

So I I I didn't I didn't ever imagine that any of this would be possible. I was a close-up magician for years. I used to practice my close up magic a lot. I used to go and do corporate events, and I thought that was it. I didn't ever imagine the identifism. Like to me, that was just something that was so far out of what I would even think of doing. It just never occurred to me.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

And so it's together that even you went to another level.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Yeah. Yeah. I I I was never like this until we m until we met.

SPEAKER_07 44:00

Even when we met, I remember obviously I I knew that he's a magician. He was the very first magician I ever saw live. Um, and I was like, How come you never tried any of the got talent things? And he was like, Oh no way, I could never. And then I'm imagining, I'm thinking about that conversation. Do you remember that? And I'm thinking about that conversation we had when I never even thought I could do this with you because I had my own thing. Um, that was before we even thought of it. And I was like, You should do it. And you're like, I could never. But when we became this mind-to-mind thing, this is more like okay, we can do it now. Which I think you could have done it before as well. It's just that you never really thought of it. You didn't have that mindset to go and get yeah awards and stuff. You just you were happy with your business.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

This is like the definition of you're stronger together, yeah. Like literally 100% like case in point, yeah, kind of a situation. You're stronger together. I hear that anyone, mentalist or not, can grow as a human as well as in their relationship if they were to come up with something big enough that would challenge both parties to work towards. So that's one thing. Are there other things that you believe we can learn from your mentalist journey to be better as a couple?

SPEAKER_07 45:20

Well, yeah, apart from trust, um believe in each other, enjoying each other's company.

SPEAKER_03 45:27

We do this together, but we don't put our own expectations on the other person. And I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_05 45:35

How do you manage to do that? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Because we because this is where the trust comes from. I I know that Marina will do what she needs to do. She knows I'll do what I need to do. Just day to day. We we have full faith in each other. There's never any um following up with each other accountability on have you done this thing? Right. Are you doing that? You're not doing this good enough. When we practice, when when we're not good enough or fast enough in our practice, we get frustrated with ourselves, but we don't get frustrated with each other.

SPEAKER_05 46:03

Lovely.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

Because we have complete trust and lack of judgment. Yeah, and and it was I I went down the stoicism path a few years ago, and there was one thing that always stuck in my head, and that's that there's a sentence that people always say that that this person's perfect for me, but it's the wrong way to look at it. Marina's not for me. Marina's her own person. I'm not for her. We are just together, and we should make each other better, but that's my job to make her better, and her job to make me better. And my job is to give, her job is to give, but I should never think about what she's giving me.

SPEAKER_02 46:36

Right?

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Because that's none of my business. That's not something that I'm in control of. I'm only in control of what I put into that relationship. So there's mutual investment, I think, over the years that we've been together. We've both put in the same amount of energy. Um and I think that's really important because I've been in relationships where I've been the only one investing.

SPEAKER_05 46:54

Yeah, I was just gonna say this works when both of you are givers. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

That's when a trust comes in, right? Because otherwise, of course, you Because you're gonna be taken advantage of when you're the giver and it becomes the nature you're not the giver.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Which is what we both had in the past. Where we were taken advantage of for being the givers.

SPEAKER_05 47:14

Either from your past relationship or ideally together, what is the toughest thing you have navigated as a couple outside of magic?

SPEAKER_03 47:25

The hardest stuff that we've ever gone through has been stuff that's not to do with our relationship. It's been things like like COVID, everyone was in the same boat, and uh I can't complain about it because we were all in the same boat. But we're obviously artists, we lost all our gigs. All our gigs cancelled, and we had to move to a different place so that because we couldn't afford anything anymore. We had to sell our car.

SPEAKER_02 47:45

But that's that was all tough.

SPEAKER_03 47:46

But that was that ah, this is interesting. So so during that time, that's when we re we changed our goals. Because we realized during COVID that without the money, we were still happy because we had each other.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:03

So then our goals stopped being related to money after that. So then that's when so during COVID we wrote our theatre show because I never wanted to go into theatre because there's no money in it. Do corporates. That's where the money is. And that's what we were doing prior up until COVID, and then we're like, okay. We still love each other, we still care about each other, we're still happy. Let's focus on other stuff that's not related to money. So that's when we started doing theatre and started worrying about the world championships and stuff like this. And I think that was that was a big turning point, is is forget about money. Which is which is easy to say because up and as long as you've if you've got a roof over your head, I mean there are people that don't have that. And so it's so it's easy to say, but after a certain point it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Right? We don't need to be rich, we don't need nice things, we don't we've never been materialistic, we don't care about stuff. And also the offshoot of that was it meant that we could start charting more. Because we didn't, we weren't trying, we weren't desperate to get the gigs. Yeah, we we started doing gigs that we wanted to do and started focusing on projects that we wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

That's the difference. People who chase the goals, once they hit the goal, if they don't have passion for the craft, they feel empty.

SPEAKER_03 49:20

I get that a hundred percent. Right? Yeah, I that's why I'd coasted for so many years. Because growing up, I came from a a poor like council council house in the UK, like a council background, spl uh separated parents, all that kind of stuff. Never really had any money growing up and um knew what it was like to see my mum on welfare and the whatever they call it in the UK. Um so up until the age of 16, my my goal had always been I need to I need to learn magic. That's that's what I enjoyed. At 16, I left school and I was like my goal is to support myself completely doing only magic. And then by the time I was 23, I'd I'd moved to Dubai and I was doing that, but that was that that was as far as I was concerned, my life's goal done, and I felt empty. Exactly like what you're saying.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

Yeah, and I I couldn't understand it because it arrives and what not, and this is the thing you've been waiting for your whole life is here, and then suddenly you just don't like that for a few years until I met Marina.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

And you drift around and you try to find why you're here, yeah. And I think it's so important for people to learn that, and especially hear from people like you, like people with such achievements, it's like you don't just go for something to achieve money and success, you go for something because this is like something that makes you wake up in the morning and feel excited about it. And maybe sometimes you feel the stress of like how big the goal is, but because you love it, you keep on per pursuing it, no matter if you won or didn't. Like, if you didn't win the championship, imagine you saying, Oh, we're not good enough, we're gonna stop doing this. Like it would sound crazy for you, right?

SPEAKER_07 51:10

Yeah, it would have been a week of that, probably.

SPEAKER_05 51:15

But then we'll be like, No, we're back again.

SPEAKER_07 51:19

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

We're real people, of course, with real feelings, but the tough part about that, and and this was this was crazy because we we knew that the the previous world champions in mensalism were entering again.

SPEAKER_07 51:33

So we're like, oh fucking saying, so it was a big possibility to feel like that.

SPEAKER_05 51:38

Of course, because they already won.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

Yeah, so we were like, why are they entering again? Now we've got to go against the reigning world champions.

SPEAKER_05 51:46

The reason why they were doing it again is so that you realize that you're the best.

SPEAKER_03 51:52

We thought about that so much, and uh and our competition during the warm up, because we didn't we didn't know what anybody else was gonna do.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Our competition was what we imagined people would do.

SPEAKER_05 52:01

And you you you're such overthinkers, really. You even think about what they could be doing. Yeah, yes, we're like last time.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

They must be doing something like the one last time, they're going in again. It's gotta be, I mean, incredible. Yeah, yeah. Like, so we're like, okay, all right, now we've gotta we've got to compete against this imaginary idea of what what all the other acts it's such a niche.

SPEAKER_05 52:23

Like, do you think are you all? Yeah, are you all friends?

SPEAKER_03 52:25

We we met them there. They're lovely, they were lovely people, they were so nice. Like class act.

SPEAKER_07 52:30

Yeah, magic world is quite small compared to like other industries industries, yeah. But um, yeah, we we have a lot of friends within magic. Most of our fl friends are magicians. Yeah, that's great. That's so nice.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

You meet and you share like community.

SPEAKER_07 52:45

We have these magic conventions, they're like these big ones. Uh, there is one in Las Vegas every August, and one in Blackpool in the UK, which is coming next February, this February. Um, so we always go to these conventions and we just hang out, and yeah, it's a great work. Like so, everyone from the wall of magic, like the whole world palms into the convention. There's always like three, four thousand people. Wow. We hang out for like three, four days, and then we meet again.

SPEAKER_03 53:12

We love performing for magicians. Magicians for me was always like my fear point.

SPEAKER_05 53:18

Right, right, Mark.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

I was always terrified of performing for magicians. So we when we were doing our warm-up for Fism, we um during the warm-up, we went to one of the conventions where we were just sitting in a room there asking magicians to come in to perform for them because I needed to get past the fear of performing for magicians. Then we went to Dallas, there was another magic convention, and we did like 10 shows over the three days for magicians. So I realized that actually magicians are the best audiences for good magic. But they're the worst audience for mediocre magic. This is why they're so terrifying for me, is I've seen them the way they are at conventions, they're really judgmental of acts.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

It can be brutal.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

But luckily, this is such a specialist form of mentalism. What we do, the second sight thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

A lot of them that they will know the methods, but they don't know what we're doing because we've created our own system.

SPEAKER_04 54:04

You create your own system.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

So they they have no idea. So we It's so cool. And I was surprised the first time we went to these conventions and magicians are coming up going, is it this? Is it this? Is it this?

SPEAKER_05 54:12

Are they gonna see your blindfold and those like what? You want to know the trick.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:17

And you don't tell them.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

So they're like layman to us. It's great. They're fascinated. Yeah, that's cool. Can you tell us a little bit about the world behind the scenes of talent shows? Because talent shows is something that's been running for so many years now, and so many people watch the talent shows, and you have been on three different ones, the TV ones, like Britain's, Ukraine, and US. Yeah. What is the behind the scenes of going on a talent show and you know, and being so amazing on stage as well?

SPEAKER_07 54:50

I feel like talent shows uh they've done so well for art type of act, for the for magic world, for because you know, there are so many shows for let's say singers, musicians, dancers, but something as unique as magic or juggling or stuff like you wouldn't have a separate show for it. You don't have to do that. When you have a talent show where you could just go and do anything you're great at, it just brings a platform for people like us. And it's just it's so awesome that someone created that Simon Cowell, yeah. Created that type of show. It's amazing. Now there are so many of them. So uh we've done Britain's Got Talent, and then maybe two years after that, someone approached me from on Facebook. It was a Ukrainian lady. She was like, I'm a producer on Ukraine's Got Talent. We haven't done Ukraine's Got Talent for a couple of years, but now we want to revive the project. And we thought we saw you on BGT, we know you're Ukrainian, and you know, James is obviously from the UK. We thought it would be cool if you came to Ukraine and did it. So they basically scouted us without us applying.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 55:57

So sometimes it can work like that.

SPEAKER_01 55:59

Um you got a b golden buzzer, right?

SPEAKER_07 56:01

We got a golden buzzer.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

Which I thought I always wanted to press that for someone.

SPEAKER_07 56:05

Oh my god. Super cool. It's just um so going there, obviously we were we we knew that we have a good act, we have a good product to come to Ukraine with, because also back then in Ukraine, as far as I knew, I didn't know any magicians there. There was a community, but it was quite small, not as big like in the US or UK, you know, there was this huge um like the magic circle, the magic castle, big things in yeah. So we decided uh going into before the golden buzzer and everything, going into the I thought they don't really know much about magic there, and especially mentalism. Haven't heard about anybody doing a lot of mentalism. It's just I haven't heard of. But then I I realized that there are some mentalists there that we learn to know. But then we're like, what if they don't understand what it is? What if they don't think it's as magical as people think it is in the UK or whatever? Maybe they just don't get the vibe. And I'm thinking, what if they give us a red X? You know, when they're like that thing. I was like, what are we gonna do? It's gonna kill us. So we decided to make it a complete secret. We're not gonna tell anybody we're going. If we go, something goes wrong, which is gonna keep it as quiet as possible and never even mention it and hope nobody watches it. It's so funny. It was so hard, yeah. And then even after the golden buzzer happened, which is a complete shock, we're like, I couldn't believe it. Yeah, we just couldn't believe it. After it happened, we looked at each other, we're like, we still can't tell anybody until it airs. Because we don't know. I mean, we know a little bit how TV works. You know, it's TV, they can edit it the any way they want. Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

You know, they waited and you're like, by the way, we're on TV tomorrow.

SPEAKER_07 57:51

Once you sign off, you know, that release, and then the magic of TV can happen.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

We're like, let's not just tell anybody how it went, and then we have to wait for like Well I started I started saying, like, what what if they do like way more golden buzzers than they need? And then they're too good.

SPEAKER_08 58:09

Yeah. Because they say more humble.

SPEAKER_07 58:17

On TV, they might think they won they might tell you every judge has a golden buzzer they they can press within the whole show, but maybe they can press as many as they want, but then the producers and editors will decide which one deserves to go online, which you know. Anyway, we overthought this. You've already made like overthinking.

SPEAKER_05 58:36

But like, but you've maximized it. Like you've turned overthinking into a job.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Your craft, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:41

So it like it has helped you.

SPEAKER_07 58:42

True. Yeah, when we realized that it was uh the producers called us like a month or maybe less before it was supposed to air, they said, Okay, your episode is gonna air. Um, they sent us a few promo photos or something like this. Don't post anything, but you can like tease people so they can like start uh um expecting it. And then we remember we had the view-in party, we invited our friends, they had no idea. We're like, we're gonna be on TV. There's this show. We had these friends at how in our house, and we were watching, and we're like, we already knew they're gonna air the golden buzzer, and it was like so exciting because now your friends are on the back stage of everybody's like, Oh, they get a golden buzzer, yeah. Yeah, it was um it was cool. Yeah, but we kept it, yeah, just in case.

SPEAKER_01 59:28

What an experience. If I if I had an opportunity like you, I would totally install like a golden buzzer in my room. It's like when it happens to the people, I press and it's in the room, and you like bask in the slow motion, but that would have been amazing. Totally do it. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_07 59:48

Yeah, but it's a great experience. I could recommend to anyone to just do it because it just pushes you so hard to get out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

The final, yeah. The final was tough because we I wanted to do it in Ukrainian, so I learned Ukrainian for the whole thing. Marina was gonna doing something where she was in a different location, but everyone thought she was backstage. But the final thing was that she revealed that she was in that location.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:13

Oh I was on the screen the whole act, but then I revealed that I was actually in it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:17

So in a totally different area, yeah, yeah. But you but so we thought TV, there's gonna be uh a special um fan with satellites and stuff. No, they were using 3G. No, a mobile phone, 3G to the studio. No, and we're doing we've got to do this live.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:35

3G live. And we went through a rehearsal and it went badly.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

It didn't work once in rehearsal.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:41

I kept on freezing on screen, I couldn't hear him, he couldn't hear me. It was very bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:45

Oh no, so then there were tears, there were there were moments where Marina was like, we can't do it, and I was thinking, we yeah, we can't do it.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:50

We're gonna embarrass us.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:51

And then I don't know what happened exactly, but we ended up just doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:55

The producers knew how to talk to us. They did our their job, really.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:58

So we did it, and I started, and then Marina starts talking, and then she froze, and I was like, Oh shit. Life on stage, yes, yes, and then it and then I was just like, I'm just gonna carry on, and then actually it ended up being okay for the rest of the performance, but my god, what a risk we took.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:15

Yeah, and that's so scary. Yeah, but it wouldn't really be on you, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Yeah, but they they are on stage. We're the ones that are on thinking of the stage. No one's gonna say, Oh, it's not on you.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

People don't think of that.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:26

What we tell to people, and what we told our friends the other day, is that I think all of these things, if they're scary, you should do it anyway. Because at the end of the day, we are all every we are everybody everybody else's extras. We we are nobody else's main character apart from our own. So the fact is, the worst case scenario still, to everybody else, it's just a thing that they know. It doesn't matter to anybody. So you might as well do it because I'm my own main character, so I might as well do the best I can. With it with this is what I was telling a friend of ours in Vegas, because she's a singer, absolutely incredible singer, one of the best singers I've ever heard. And but she's so she's so humble and nervous about doing it.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:08

She has the imp imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

So they there was a band there, and they asked her, Do you want to come on and do some songs with us? And she said yes, but then she panicked and said no. So I was like, for goodness sake, because she's gonna come to Dubai and we're gonna get her some work. I was like, Look, go tomorrow, do it, and get the video. I don't care how scared you are, yeah, do it because if like, what's the worst that can happen? Yeah, worse that's can happen. The worst that's gonna happen is you get on stage and you fumble the words and you freeze, but then no one cares. Yeah, no one cares because you're just an extra in their life.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:39

Yeah, that's a nice way of looking at it. Yeah, it brings the stakes down. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:44

And and nothing, nothing matters.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

So just do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:47

But if it works, but if it works, it's great. It's so great. And if it doesn't, there's nothing to lose. Yeah, absolutely. If you actually look at it in the grand scheme of things, there's nothing to lose, it's just embarrassment, which is the price of entry.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And and it's like like things like world championships and stuff like that, winning that for us, again, doesn't matter. No one cares. But the reason we do it is because of our own personal satisfaction. There was a um um, what is it, what's his name? Alex Homer, yeah. One of my favourite ever quotes that he said is you don't get confidence by yelling affirmations at yourself in the mirror. True confidence comes from providing the world with irrefutable evidence that you are who you say you are. And I love that. Yeah, and that's that's kind of the way we feel a little bit about winning the world championships, is it's it's now something that we've got. We'll never not have that. Yeah, that just is always gonna feel good, and it doesn't matter if it means nothing. If we go on a got talent show and get the golden buzzer, no one really cares. We might get an extra couple of hundred followers. Which is what happens, it's not making us famous, but it's but it's just something that we've done now. We've got that thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:55

We will always be able to look back and go, Yeah, you've got to be like 70 and look back and just have like such incredible highlights. It's like it's so nice. I really like I can understand. You also meant mentioned Alex Homorosy. Another one of his quotes, I think, is like, you work so hard that it's literally unreasonable for you to not succeed. And that's exactly what you two have done. You've worked so hard that it's just it would be so unreasonable if you didn't win the buzzer, didn't win it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

And now, bring your mystery item. We would love to be the extras in this experience now.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:30

Yeah, so this is something that made us feel very, very accomplished and special. It was a very special thing when we got it, remember?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:37

So these are our members of the inner magic circle pimples. There's only 300, there's 250 members in the world. There can only ever be maximum 300.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:49

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:50

You have to be invited by the president of the magic circle.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:52

There is a president of the magic circle. There is, yes. He's very cool. He's very cool. Oh my god. We're friends with him, yes. Oh my god.

unknown 1:05:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:02

All I ever dreamt of was that I was in Hogwarts and I was a witch, and this is the closest thing it gets. It is pretty much like it in the real world. Yeah. Like big Harry Potter. Bigger. How do you get cooler? I know. How did you just get cooler?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Nice. This is so there's only 300 or 250 in the world. This could probably be 250, but there can only ever be maximum 300. Yeah, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:29

Absolutely. And there are like how many women are there? Like 10? 20 women only? It's just, it means everything to me. That's so yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:39

I'd imagine that the magic space is mostly men. It is, but it's changing so quickly now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:44

And you are behind that inspiration, by the way. I love it.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:48

I would love to do that. There's astrology here. Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's a very cool uh it's a yeah, it's a very cool logo they have. It's it's amazing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:57

And the fact that it's red, that's that's what makes it special.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

We were in the clubhouse at the circle. Um we'd performed for their convention the night before. And then we went just to hang out with the members.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:10

Oh, and the president at that point was a very amaz it was an amazing young woman, magician. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:17

And she called us down. No, she called everyone down to the main club room.

unknown 1:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

And then they started talking, and she was holding these. And she she said, We're gonna make two new members of the inner magic circle now. And I was just like, hang on a minute.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:33

Is that all right? Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

That's another thing that I never growing up, I never thought I was always part of the magic circle. I never thought I'd be a member. Because the max the highest you can get by examination is associate to the inner magic circle.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:46

Yeah, you need to pass an exam to get to the membership. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

So you got member, you got um kind of apprentice, member, associate to the inner magic circle, then, and then inner magic circle, which is just something that's awarded um because you've ad advanced magic in some way. It's like a hall of fame. Yeah. Yes, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:07

Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. We love it.