Across the Whoniverse: A Doctor Who Marathon Podcast
Join your Friendly Neighborhood Time Lord Chels & Muppet of a Time Lord Paige on their Tardis adventures as they marathon Doctor Who.
Across the Whoniverse: A Doctor Who Marathon Podcast
S01E08 "Father's Day" w/ Sharai Bohannon & Gavin Mevius
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Time Lords! This week, we kidnap returning companions Gavin Mevius of The Mixed Reviews and The Q Division podcasts and scream queen writer and podcaster Sharai Bohannon as we travel back in time to the day Pete Tyler died.
Rose asks the Doctor if they can go back in time to see her dad Pete Tyler, and after attending her parents wedding, she requests to see him on the day he died so he isn't alone when he passes away. Things go awry when Rose messes with the laws of time and saves him from his death, unleashing supernatural Reapers into the timeline.
We discuss if Rose or the Doctor is at fault for saving a person who shouldn't be alive and the concept of fixed points in time. Our Tardis Team also breakdown why the scariest things should be left to our imagination and the importance of "filler episodes", aka, "world-building episodes". Plus, Chels cries as we see Pete Tyler go from hustling loser to World's Best Dad and Sharai is ready to reboot Secret Diary of a Call Girl for Billie Piper.
Join us as we travel Across the Whoniverse!
Email us with questions or comments at AcrossTheWhoniversePod@gmail.com
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Welcome to Across the Fitaverse, a Doctor Who Marathon podcast. I'm your friendly neighborhood, Time Lord Chelsea. And I'm your Muppet of a Time Lord Page. And y'all, we have two of our best returning companions. We've kidnapped them. We've gone back to the 80s, baby Gavin, Sheree. Welcome back to the TARDIS. Sorry that it's gonna like dis disappear, but Sheree, you're the person we need for this episode because it's a scary berry episode.
SPEAKER_00Listen, I had not seen this episode in years. And today I was like, why have I not rewatched this season in too long? Also, I'm still team we slept on Eccleson and we only got one season with him because he has all the correct responses. I know we're gonna get into it, but everything he's gonna get into it. Yep. I was like, she needs to hear this. No, and tell her again, fight her. If you want to fight her, I will hold your jacket that's stylish and leather because budgets. Um, but yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02Of course, Gavin, welcome back. You're a three-time companion at this point. This season.
SPEAKER_04I am I am, and once again, so sorry. I think I left my hair stuff, my like hair paste in the TARDIS. And so I have to wear a hat. Not that it's okay.
SPEAKER_02We're making you a little apartment. You just have to go like three stories down, go to the left beyond the blue swimming pool, but then you have to turn left at the green swimming pool, and then your room's there.
SPEAKER_04You know I'm colorblind.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. That's why we fuck with you.
SPEAKER_03We're torturing you. It's a little bit of psychological torture for fun. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02For funsies. You have to do that.
SPEAKER_04I did like I do like that you genuinely pick two colors I can't see: blue and green.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Gavin, I terrorize on purpose. You know this. Y'all, I am actually the master today. But y'all, this episode, let's just dive right in. Um So Much Happens. This is series one, episode eight, Father's Day, written by Paul Cornell, directed by Joe Aaron, one of Christopher Eccleston's favorite directors. This originally aired on the 14th of May 2005, and it features Ninth Doctor, Rose Tyler, Jackie Tyler, Pete Tyler, the Reapers, which are technically not even mentioned. They're just the scary berry things that I say are coming at us. And this is set in London on November 7th, 1987. But y'all, before we get too far into this episode, we have some fun questions for y'all. In honor of the Tyler family, this is a family reunion episode of sorts. Let's talk about other favorite companion families because we have so many. We have Martha's family, we have the Ponds, and that crazy situation. We have Yaz's family, Graham and Ryan. Who are some of our favorite companion families?
SPEAKER_00You know, I am an Amy Pond girl. Um, also knowing who our mother is, like, no notes, Riversong. No notes. Sorry to people who are listening for the first time and watching along. I ruined so much for you. You're welcome. Spoilers. Spoilers. But I mean, that that is a family that that is my first family of who. Um, I am also here for Graham and Ryan because, like, to not ruin that, they had a very sad beginning. And then they were like, no, we're together and we're stronger. And also, we believe women doctors. We know that can happen. Um, they're real. She's driving the TARDIS. We're in.
SPEAKER_02They were brought together by two bad bitches and Yaz as well. And Yaz is also a bad bitch, but she's not their mother.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02But 13 is the father who stepped up.
SPEAKER_00Um, I also just appreciate that Graham was relatable because he's like, these adventures take too long, I'm packing sandwiches. And I'm like, that would be me. Oh no.
SPEAKER_02It's like, I need to sit, I need a sandwich, let's go to a spa. Whoopsie, I got us into a scam spa.
SPEAKER_00It's like Saturn in the year 3090 is cool, but I'm hungry. That's definitely how I travel now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So relatable. Gavin, do you have a favorite who family?
SPEAKER_04I feel like a broken record, sadly, but I really love Martha Jones's family.
SPEAKER_02And specifically, they suffered for everybody's sense.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, truly. And specifically Francine Jones, who's played by Ajoa Ando. She's so that first of all, as an actress, so good. But screen presence, baby. She shows up, and you're just like, I'm following her now. Starting to do that. I'm about to do whatever she says.
SPEAKER_02She's in Bridgerton, and I'm like, that's the character I would want to be.
SPEAKER_04Like she's I knew I knew she's had a good career since this as well. I've not watched Bridgerton. I I know, but yeah, she's such a fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Not even for our Julie Andrews episode. How dare you?
SPEAKER_04I know. Isn't she only in the miniseries? I don't know. Is she on oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02Julie Andrews is in every episode, technically.
SPEAKER_04Wow. I I you know, Louie hinted at that the other night on the mixed reviews, and I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm a dum-dum.
SPEAKER_03That means you have to watch it all.
SPEAKER_04I guess so.
SPEAKER_02You do, but y'all, I agree. I love all of these families. Hmm, who else? I'm gonna shout out um Ruby's family as well, her adopted family. And they're just great, even though the writing is not always great for them. I just love all those actresses, and I'm a sucker for an adopted family story. I mean, come on, it's beautiful, they're wonderful. I love them, Paige.
SPEAKER_03Any others? I was gonna say the noble family. Obviously, Donna Wilf is the sweetest little guy in the whole thing. That's our grandpa. That's all of that's our grandpa. When Wolf cries, we cry.
SPEAKER_00I know too soon, too soon. It's only been like 15 years.
SPEAKER_03Too soon, it's still too soon. We won't forget it. And I love I love Donna's daughter. I love they brought her in. All of them.
SPEAKER_04Another rose, another rose by any other name.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Did we hit every single family in the Huniverse? I hope so.
SPEAKER_03Maybe.
SPEAKER_02Oh, this was wonderful. But before we dive into the plot, uh, Gavin, Sheree, tell people where they can find you and all your wonderful stuff. Sheree, you first, because you have 50-11 bajillion things going on.
SPEAKER_00Yes, insomnia is working um for someone, not me. I can be found at Miss Sheree on Instagram. That's the best place to find me and find links to a lot of the other things. I'm gonna yell at you real quick. I am also at Sheree.beast guy.social. I co-host Bloody Massacre with the Zero Gravity, the mayor of New York. She's doing great work, no notes. Um, and that's Bloody Massacre on pretty much anything you put in Bloody Massacre on and it comes up. That's us. Yeah. Um, a nightmare on Fear Street is the one I host with Rotating Friends now because she's a little bit older and I wanted to have fun and shake that shit up. And so, like, yeah. Um, she's every Monday. Always are horror podcasts, by the way. So people um who who don't know that, I I do horror things.
SPEAKER_02Um, but yeah, um You're a scary berry girl, look out.
SPEAKER_00I listen, listen.
SPEAKER_02But you're also the girl who would pick the bear over the man.
SPEAKER_00The day I woke up and saw that discourse, I didn't know what's going on, but I also said bear and then I went to do the research and I was like, yeah, scanned. Um but we're also convinced we could tame the bear. Listen, you can negotiate with a bear. Um bears have moral codes, and you know, they have you that's a different podcast. Um, any who's I know this who the doctor's on my side. Um but yeah, nightmare on Friend Street is also on that Instagram. It's also on that blue sky. If you put it in a nightmare on Fierce Street, um you'll see a lovely picture of me painted by a friend who is giving it's me giving Freddie Kruger a coachella, and that's when I knew that that friend knew me well. I was like, how dare you see my soul? Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for reminding me why I texted you on Sunday. It was Friday Comics.
SPEAKER_00That's right! That's and that's why I'm here.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for here. It's wonderful. Everyone, go check it out. It's great stuff. Gavin, all the listeners know I say it all the time. I stole our format 5,000% from you. Exactly. Every single thing. Tell people where they can find this format talking about other things.
SPEAKER_04Well, you can find this format on the Q Division, which is a monthly James Bond queer podcast. We're going through all the James Bond movies and other related media just because we're running out of James Bond movies, and I love Chell so much I don't want to let her go. I don't want to lose her completely to the doctor. I know.
SPEAKER_02It's like we ran through Timothy Dalton, and it's like, well, we have Mama Mia Bond coming up, but let's let's take a detour. Pages on our deb episode coming out either during Pride or My Birthday Month. Who's to say?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, we've got Mama Mia and gay foghorn lakehorn left, and that's and that's it, you know? And so, yeah, you can find any of that on Q Division Pod at uh it's uh that's that on Instagram, it's that on Blue Sky. I also co-host the long-running film podcast called The Mixed Reviews. You can find that on Blue Sky on Instagram, and I guess if you really want to find me, you can find me at sh it's Gavin. That's S-H-H-I-T-S G-A-V-I-N on Blue Sky. And also GavinMev on Instagram. But yeah, that's that's all I'm doing. I that's literally all like too much of my life.
SPEAKER_02You say it's all you're doing, and yet I've been on two of your episodes, but the homework for that is just like as if I was back in grad school, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I run a tight ship. I run I may I I invite guests on, and I'm like, oh, by the way, I'm gonna torture you.
SPEAKER_03Sheree, you've been on the show, so you know you're being really humble about the amount of work you put in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, I learned things about Wes Craven, and you know I know West Craven. I'm like, what? He wore what to win?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the Sharon Stone thing, I'm still not over it. Still not over it. Sharon Stone possibly stealing his ex-wife.
SPEAKER_02It's because of your episode. I bought the DVD of Invitation to Hell, and because I was on eBay, I found two copies and sent one to Gavin.
SPEAKER_04Amazing.
SPEAKER_02I know it is a ride. It is a ride. Um, yes. Everyone go check that out. By the time this episode drops, my Julie Andrews episode of Mixed Reviews will be out. And guess what? Mary Poppins is a time lord. Look out, baby. She's a scary one.
SPEAKER_04That's very correct.
SPEAKER_00I always said Missy was dark Mary Poppins. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's so correct. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02She's Mary Poppins with drugs. And good for her.
SPEAKER_04What did you think the medicine was, Chels? A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down?
SPEAKER_02Sugar.
SPEAKER_00Sugar.
SPEAKER_02But y'all, let's just get into the TARDIS wiki synopsis of this episode, because somehow a lot happens, but also very little, but also our hearts explode. Let's see. Pete Allen Tyler, the father of Rose and husband of Jackie, died on the 7th of November 1987, the day of Stuart Hoskins and Sarah Clark's wedding. Rose was just a baby at the time, and Jackie told the young Rose that nobody was there for Pete when he died, and that the hit and run driver was never found. Now grown up, Rose asks the ninth doctor. Rose asks the ninth doctor to take her to see him alive, but on a whim ends up changing his fate, not realizing the consequences of such a paradox. After all, the doctor has saved so many lives. What could the real consequences be over a man alive in a in the world who wasn't alive before? Wow, TARDIS wiki creates synopsises that you know what, Gavin would write these for me on the Q Division.
SPEAKER_04For all we know, that's uh that's AI written nowadays.
SPEAKER_02I hope not, obviously, but no, this this new wiki literally left the fandom like platform because of AI.
SPEAKER_04Oh, thank God. Push them out, give them give them no quarter.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And y'all, let's before we dive in deep to the plot, what are your brief overall impressions of this episode? And do you remember the first time you watched it? Because you both specifically requested this episode.
SPEAKER_00So, as you know, I was late to who in general. Um, and I started with Eccleson because I'm a completionist, even though I followed David Tennant over there from Jessica Jones. It was my last winter in grad school, and I binged these babies. I binged them back to back to back. Capology's first season was out. Um, and I had to find that in like the scariest place of the internet. And so I knew nothing of this world other than I had a scarf and my friends were like, You're the kind of nerd who would be into that show. You should watch that show. Um, and so I get here and I know they kill doctors, and so I was like, they wouldn't do it in the middle of the season, would they? Or are these soap opera rules? And so I got very stressed all of a sudden. And um, but yeah, me and my little Lubbock Texas apartment, um not doing well in my first like hardcore binge of Doctor Who is how I saw this. So it was probably day two of that binge, knowing me, because I probably took a nap and then woke up and got right back to it. And so yeah, not great.
SPEAKER_02That sounds about right for you. I this is deeply relatable as a person who took a nap before coming on this pod. Gavin, do you remember the first time you watched this episode?
SPEAKER_04Uh, much like I said last time, I probably pirated it in my dorm room in college uh because I was just rabid about getting these uh before they came to the US because you know, we had no idea that it was even gonna get picked up by anybody in the US. And as it was coming out, yeah, so I definitely like lime wired it at some point. Um, but yeah, I remember I remember this episode sticking really with me specifically because, and and much like I said when I was in the Dickens episode and even in the Dalek episode, uh I the levels in which they were taking the seriousness of it felt very new and fresh in a way that I had not seen uh other TV shows advertised as family shows. And I'd grown up with the original series, so I knew how serious it could get, but I guess like this sort of um very emotional episode because like you said, it so much happens in this episode, but it feels like so little, like they the Jackie is reintroduced. The 80s version of Jackie is reintroduced in the episode. It's already halfway over, and that's wild. Uh yeah, I think I love love this episode. So uh thank you for having me on as well, too. Because I feel like I I butted into Sheree's episode as well, too.
SPEAKER_02No, you both separately were like, hey, we should do this. And I'm like, wait, they're friends, let's put them together. This is how I started the Doctor Who podcast matchmaking friendship service, by the way. Just so everyone knows, this is my excuse for my friends to hang out together.
SPEAKER_00To be fair, we also did kind of accidentally get a little bit mean about it on Gavin's podcast because we were like, we haven't seen each other in a while because chills hasn't scheduled us at the same time. Sure. We're like, and we know you're listening, chills. And sure enough, when the episode came out, we got a text. We're like, hey, um, I'm listening also.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Ask and you shall receive.
SPEAKER_00You both want to do this. Should you do this together? We're like, yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_02I was called. This is my Ghostbuster's call to action right now. Paige. I'm sure you could call me out on an episode for any reason. Do you remember the first time you watched this and the overwhelming emotions it gave you?
SPEAKER_03I was trying to think about the first time I watched this. I'm sure because notoriously I watched the show on BBC America when it was like doing reruns of Doctor Who, and that's how I caught up with seasons I didn't see.
SPEAKER_02Truly catching episodes strays.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I'm sure it was like in the midst of a catch-up marathon, and I didn't fully pay attention to it. It could have been the middle of the night, who knows? Um, so I was really like watching a lot of this for the first time, I feel like, especially as an adult, it hits different. And I love any episode of a sci-fi series that deals with time travel where they're having to deal with the conundrum of like, oh no, you can't stop this horrible event from happening because it has repercussions and you don't fully understand. It's just classic.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And like, I mean, I said it up top, but this is kind of just a small idea episode. But as I'm making my notes, I feel like I just transcribe so many arguments that are just people talking. And that is why I love this show. Cause sometimes the best scenes, like even in a soap opera or anything, are just two people shouting at each other or like having emotional morality debates. And this one, it gives us a good one. I even have like some prompt questions in here for us because I don't know. We we learn a lot. And I would say that the Russell T. Davies era of Doctor Who is more like we try to clean up everything by the end, put it with a nice bow. And I will say I think it works for this and for other episodes we've covered this season because it is supposed to be a family show after all. So, y'all, we open on this like flashback of young Rose and Jackie looking at like pictures of Pete in a scrapbook. That's Rose's dad. And Jackie's just recounting the day that he died and all the sequences like that led to it. And oh no, he died alone. It was a hit and run. Nobody stopped for him. And then we cut to present-day Rose, who's telling the doctor all of this and asking if they can go visit her dad when he was still alive. And the doctor is just worried about Rose because, like, he's gonna do anything for her. He literally says that, but he's just worried about the consequences and the emotional impact. And it's like, this man is also in love with this woman. I get it at this point. Like, I understand where the shipping comes in for this show.
SPEAKER_04And he's like, I will say he's being irresponsible though. He really, he really. I mean, she's very young. She's like 18. And like, I, you know, not to get into it already, but like, I think anybody who's lost a loved one with capacity to travel through time is not is gonna want that. I was gonna ask that question. It's gonna get brought up at some point, and he should be like, actually, no, that's a really bad idea. We should not do that uh episode over. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02And like, I love that that is the whole point of this episode. It's like the doctor is it's actually his fault if you really think about all of this. It's like he knew he shouldn't have done any of this, but guess what? He loves this girl, so he's gonna do it anyways and try to make it happen. Thank you for we're all getting ahead of this. But yeah, the doctor's like, yeah, I can do anything, but I'm just worried about you. But you know what? Your wish is my command, baby. And we're gonna smash the credits and watch the credits all the way through. Bring them back, babies. And y'all, we return to the Doctor and Rose watching Jackie and Pete's wedding, with Pete stumbling over his vows. And I like this little scene. It's just a small insert. Any other time on a show now, it would probably just be cut for time, but I like that it's cute. And then eventually we cut back to the past where Jackie's telling Rose about how he was killed again, and he she just wishes somebody had been there for him the day he died. So then we cut back to Rose and the Doctor in the TARDIS, where Rose is just asking if she can be that someone who's there for him when he dies. And it's like the doctor's already taken her back to see her dad, and like they watch the wedding, and it's like, one more, just one more for funsies. And you know what? Sometimes the funsies gets you in trouble.
SPEAKER_04Can I just give a brief the the joke, the Lady Die joke, is so funny to me, which is such a deep cut, which is that when Lady Die and Prince Charles got married, uh, she stumbled over his name. She like put his name in the wrong order, and that's why Jackie, when when her father does the wrong, when Pete does the wrong, you know, the however many names Jackie has, she's like, it's good enough for Lady Die. And the doctor loves it. The doctor loves that moment. And that I was like, very relatable, Doctor. I see you.
SPEAKER_02It is so funny that while rewatching that today, I was also catching up on Days of Our Lives earlier today, and there was another Lady Die joke.
SPEAKER_04Back in the news.
SPEAKER_02Back in the news, y'all. So you know what? The doctor's like, here's our funsi. We're gonna do it. So they land November 7th, 1987, on the road where Pete died. And Rose explains he was late to the wedding because he had to pick up a wedding present, as Jackie calls it, that stupid vase. He gets out of the car and she watches as he's immediately like run over by a car. This man, had he just looked at his side mirror, it's like, mm, I'd be fine. But the doctor tells her to go to him, but Rose freezes, and then it just cuts to moments later where we hear the sirens, and Rose explains that by the time the ambulances got there, he was dead. And she asks if he can try again. And this whole opening sequence from the beginning to now, Gavin, I gotta ask you as an editor, because it is edited like a storybook in many ways, what did you think of this? Is this a choice that you like?
SPEAKER_04I I like some of it. I'll be perfectly honest. And I I love this episode, so it's hard for me to be too nitpicky, but I do think some of it suffers in the fact that like some of it feels like we're repeating info to pad. And I don't always like we experience the like Jackie telling Rose about Pete's death twice in a way that we don't necessarily need to. And if maybe it was more about some information is imparted the first time and then another layer of information, but it doesn't feel like that. It just feels like we're doubling up on the same amount of stuff. And I know part of that is to like because it is a family show, punch into like a child's heart that oh, there should be somebody with him when he dies. But it it does feel a little repetitive. Also, just as a real quick sidebar, that first frame, which is just the still of him, is my mo is my enemy. Like, I hate that so much. That looks like a college project because that is literally just like setting an in point, setting an out point. Dragging it out. I'm like, we don't come on, guys. With something, something would have been better than that. Anything. It just felt like they were like, uh, we don't have any uh stuff of him. Oh, just use the still, use the still, do a slow push.
SPEAKER_02I was just thinking of like the Unquiet Dead, how they added the extra scene of Rose and Gwen, even though it turned out to be like maybe the best scene of the episode, they had to fill it for time. And there are several moments in this where I do feel like they had to extend things and fill it for time.
SPEAKER_04And and some of those things end up being some of the best stuff. And I there's a scene in this later, I I think we're probably both referencing that I I actually really love that I think some people think is a little cheesy. And like specifically when you're talking about like the Unquiet Dead, like that's one of the best scenes in the episode. You know, the extra stuff that's written because you don't want to have effects, but you can expand the characters or make people learn something about the characters that they might not have had a chance to. I don't know. That stuff is always cool to me.
SPEAKER_02The world building stuff, we call it.
SPEAKER_04World building is cheap sometimes.
SPEAKER_02World building is cheap. But yes, Rose asks if they can try again, and you know what? The doctor and Rose return back to the scene of the impending crime where they're watching the past versions of themselves watch Pete die. And the doctor is just like so strict with Rose, being like, don't let these past versions of us see us. And you have to wait until they run off before you go run to your dad so they don't create a paradox. And guess what? Rose is like, uh, girl, what you say, bye. Just like pushes him away, runs straight into the road, like tackles him like she's a linebacker or some shit. I don't know, sports, and pushes him out of the way to save his life. And then we just see the past versions of themselves disappear. And Rose introduces herself to her dad and asks if they're also going to the wedding. And Pete offers them a ride. And I do like that. Pete's like, oh, well, we'll give your boyfriend a lift too. And the doctor is just watching them and he is furious. He is pissed. Share go off.
SPEAKER_00I was here for this because when Rose did that, I was like, girl, have you never read a sci-fi book? You've just ruined everything. You've ruined the you've ruined the world tour. And so like Eccleson's entire face, his demeanor, the silent acting, the trying to kill her with his eyeballs. I was like, Yes, yes. And like every time she's like, Oh, you're mad at me. He's like, obviously. This is the doctor that she needed because it's kind of a stern professor who's disappointed in you because you knew the assignment and you did clownery. Um, and so I was very happy that that's what they were getting because again, we were starting to wonder if this is gonna be a romantic situation. And he's nine million years old and she's 18, not to be a party pooper and ruin anybody's kinks, but like that's a giant age gap.
SPEAKER_02Like it's an age gap, but also he's an alien. So I wonder what an adult alien time lord is, to be fair. Rose wanted to find out, and you know Rose was ready. Rose is dating across the universe at this point.
SPEAKER_03Listen, and good for her.
SPEAKER_02I mean, Paige, you're next. Get in line. I'm next, yeah. Where do you threw Mickey out? But then we do get this fun part, which is my favorite quote unquote filler of the episode. It's how we transition from scene to scene, and it's like this aerial view of the city through the eyes of some scary-sounding creatures that we don't see, but we definitely hear, and the screen's like red. And I really like this part because it's like, mm, bad shit's happening. And I love that sometimes bad shit is a very simple visual cue. And then we just cut to Pete bringing Rose and the Doctor to his flat. Pete starts rambling about different ideas for inventions he has before popping out of the room. And Rose clocks the doctor's silent fury, and she just rambles about Pete's belongings that Jackie kept and just goes through the room, everything from trophies to this weird tonic drink, which I'm like, don't drink that baby girl. And then it's just like solar power plans he had. Y'all, first off, this guy looks like a doomsday prepper if we're being reals. Jackie Tyler does not live here.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. I was like, my Jackie would never. Um, she would never. Also, like her dad was giving, like, don't get in this strange man's car. I know he's your father. Don't do it. We've seen the news. And this is how I was like, before I knew where this episode was going, I was like, you're about to find out a bunch of stuff you didn't want to find out, girl. Um, also monsters, but this could have gone so many different ways.
SPEAKER_02It really could have. I mean, because let's just get into this because the doctor is pissed, and it feels like Rose is like the rambling child just trying to draw him out of it. But then the doctor recalls when they met, he's like, I asked you to travel with me in space, and you said no. But then I said time machine, and Rose is like, it wasn't my plan to save him, but I just saw the car coming, and I'm like, I could stop it. And he just fully unloads on her, saying he picked up another stupid ape, and it's not about showing her the universe, it's what the universe can do for her. And this is just coming off the episode where we kicked Adam out of the TARDIS.
SPEAKER_03And again, he let Rose do these things. Like he took her to this place in time, like we said. He can't entirely blame her.
SPEAKER_02This is literally like putting, like going into the little Aladdin thing and then not touching the gold. Come on, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04He's like, fingers crossies now. You're not gonna run out and try and save your dad, right? Like, we're gonna no, like he like this. Is a a bit pot colour in the kettlebell, but I I do love his performance. Like, he is so good, but it's just like, baby, you brought this on yourself. You're mad, you're mad at you.
SPEAKER_00Not to defend men, even doctors, but I do think that he's hurt in this moment because he's like, I found my new person, and my new person was plotting to have me help her do a really stupid thing that's gonna like ruin everything. Um, she was using me.
SPEAKER_04And and that's what you know, Eccleston is often remembered as like the tough doctor or the doctor who's like willing to do the things. But I think the the part that's often forgotten about him is he's also a really remorseful doctor, and because of that, it does allow him to be really gooey and soft in the center.
SPEAKER_02I was gonna say he's got that gooey heart of gold, you know.
SPEAKER_04Right. And that's the we're that's the other thing about the one of those scenes that we're gonna talk about later. But like so, I I do think he kind of is optimistic when he meets people, uh, but he's also like ready to be disappointed, you know.
SPEAKER_02He I mean the optimism comes out and the two-parter that's comes right after this episode.
SPEAKER_04So exactly.
SPEAKER_00Like he's again, he's he's one of our underrated doctors because he's the first one we get after the gigantic break that was new and old too. Um, and so he's carrying the weight of losing his entire planet, everybody like him. Um, and he's looking for that human connection, even though again he knows better than to believe in us because he's been around long enough to know better. And so he is that professor, is that older lady who's gonna tell you the truth because you need to hear it, but also is reading for you to do better.
SPEAKER_02And his feelings are just hurt. But I do like that she gives it right back to him, though, saying it's okay when he goes back in time to save lives, but not when it's her saving her dad. And he says, I know what I'm doing. He explains that two sets of them being in the same place has made this point in time very vulnerable. And she tries to argue that he's alive and he throws it in her face that his whole family and planet died. And do you think it ever occurred to me to go back and save them? And Rose doesn't think she's changed history too much. And the doctor says the whole world changed because an ordinary man is alive. And I'm just thinking to myself, Rose, your dad raised you now, so you're gonna be a completely different person.
SPEAKER_00I also love that we bring up the ordinary person and how they're important. Because, like in the Inshudigatwa era, um, that comes up again, and it was not a great way to use it, but I was like, and I'm like, it did start with Eccleson. Fine, you've done the research, you've looked at your show Bible. Um, so I have to read his show Bible. Only his. And so I have to be less salty with the way that shook out. A little less, not too much less.
SPEAKER_02I will credit our previous companion, Shannon Kay, because she said in the Aliens of London episode, that two-parter, that Rose does have daddy issues that she's projected onto the doctor because sometimes the doctor is her boyfriend and sometimes he is the parental figure. And it might be right because, like just this exchange in the midst of their fight, Rose just shouts at him, for once, you're not the most important man in my life. And the doctor asks for his TARDIS key back since he's insignificant. And you know what? Just to see how she gets along without him, I just they are fighting. Asking for the key back is so petty.
SPEAKER_00I I'm happy that came up though, because I this episode, he goes from being her dad to her daddy and back and forth and back and forth.
SPEAKER_02And I'm like, girl, make sure you're truly within lines. It's like being a parent, but being the boyfriend asking for the key back. And Rose is just like, you're not gonna leave without me. And I'm gonna make you wait so long before we can leave. And he just slams the door on the way out, and Pete pops his head into the room and asks boyfriend troubles. And y'all, again, good moral question. Are we Team Rose or Team Doctor on this one? Because I will say the doctor did bring her here and maybe did not explain the rules very well. This is like me taking a child to Chuck E. Cheese in many ways, but then saying, Don't you can't touch the rat. Paige would touch the rat. I would.
SPEAKER_04I think, but I think it's an important thing to bring up that uh bringing a child, and once again, she's she's 18.
SPEAKER_02Like she's a child, the brain's still cooking for another seven years.
SPEAKER_04Exactly, exactly. And so her reacting that way, her being like, I'm gonna make you wait so long, is so childish. It's so like, but and so like, yeah, he definitely bears responsibility for this quite a bit. Um, but I do actually agree with Sheree that he like he is saying some things. You know, this is maybe not the best time to be teaching a lesson because the universe is hanging in the balance and they don't really realize it yet. But like he is saying some things that maybe she should hear as well, too.
SPEAKER_02And also she's learning on the job, and that's not always the best way to learn.
SPEAKER_04Uh what a great intern. Um, and uh, but to go back to your Pete would have raised her, yeah. He's gonna he's gonna get her in on his MLMs, his multi-level marketings. She's gonna be selling that Hell Tonic.
SPEAKER_02You just know Pete is up all about all the Facebook schemes. He's actually the leggings girly, like that whole moldy leggings from all those years ago. Uh Mr. Crypto. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04As soon as email's invented, he's telling people he's a Saudi prince. You know it.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And then uh again, I just had to point out every single time that we cut to the aerial view of these scary berry monster aliens outside, and it's just you see them swooping down, and just the sound effects of them probably killing people in their yards. It happens a few different times, and then you just see like a rake falls over something. I sometimes just the easiest visual language, like Sheree. You know this from every horror film you've watched, because you've watched more than any person alive. I love it.
SPEAKER_04I was I was thinking that though while watching it too, because I was like, what a good because this this episode was meant to save money and then it didn't in the end, uh, because of all the special effects I had to do. But the that's what I was thinking was like, what a good special effects saver is how creepy is just an abandoned car in the middle of the road, a child's shoe that's like empty. It's so smart. The the visual language of that is so intelligent and so cheap to pull off.
SPEAKER_00Like it made me happy because again, it's the things that we have in our imagination that makes things scarier. And so I was like, what happened to that child? What happened to people in the car? And this is paired with those aerial shots, which made me think of like a discount lost boys.
SPEAKER_04Um yes, discount lost boys, yes, lost boys.
SPEAKER_00Um but like it was just I was like, are we going for it? Are we doing the things? And then we see the monsters, and you remember that like budgets won't let people be great. It's fine.
SPEAKER_02I mean, just the Microsoft paint point of view through our their eyes was a lot better than the actual creature we ended up seeing. I love it.
SPEAKER_00They would have been better with two flashlights and a cake. Um, but you know, I'd love my beer.
SPEAKER_02You know, I'd love it. Turn the lights off in that church later.
SPEAKER_04I read what they're supposed to look like too, because there's the whole thing about like how originally they were conceived as like actual grim grim reapers with like the big cloaks and whatnot. But then they like I read what the final description is, and I'm like, is that what I saw? Is that what that's supposed to be? They're like their tails are like scythes, and I'm like, sure, Jan.
SPEAKER_02It's like sure, Jan, but I also feel like they were probably avoiding like copying the same imagery of Harry Potter at the time because those movies had a very similar creature. Also, fuck Harry Potter.
SPEAKER_00I was about to say they're happy they didn't accidentally tiptoe to that because it would have been like, uh, exactly. JK Rowling was Doctor Who, you of all people, while she's beefy with David Tennant.
SPEAKER_02There's a reason why David Tennant on the birthday post told his wife to put trans rights or human rights.
SPEAKER_00So like the fact that she tried David Tennant of all the people in the world, um, our favorite fake British man. Um she was like, Let me try him. Um, and the David Tennant fans were just like, we're going to kill you. We're outside. Come out, Joanne. Come out. And I'm like, you weren't ready for that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Oh, did you want to die? Wait, her name's Joanne?
SPEAKER_00She's a she. She's a something that I can't say on this podcast, even though I do have a potty mouth. Um I mean, you can probably say it so that's a lot of editing for you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, this is a family show.
SPEAKER_02Have you met me? But no, we do. I just hate that Rose is tidying up Pete's apartment when we come back to this. And Pete's like, couples fight all the time. It's fine. And this annoys Rose because she insists her and the doctor aren't a couple. I mean, sure, Jan. But and she laments that he left her and Pete starts to be like, well, a pretty girl like you, if we were a couple, and then I just love that it's just Rose for a couple minutes being like, nope, not Nada, no, shutting this down. Don't even think about that. Don't even go there. You don't even know what the there is.
SPEAKER_03It's going full back to the future.
SPEAKER_04I was I was gonna say, how did Rose not know she was gonna screw something up? She's clearly seen back to the future.
SPEAKER_02But has Pete seen it? Has it been in the UK yet? It was just released. But no. Uh, they leave for the wedding where most of the guests haven't shown up. Where are they? Oh no. And then, of course, the scary creatures in the sky are stalking the doctor as he returns to the TARDIS. And as he goes to unlock it, and he opens it and he's like, uh-oh, it's actually a police box. It's the real dimensions of the set. The interior of the TARDIS has completely vanished, and he freaks out just shouting for Rose and just turns around and boot scoots on out. He's like, I gotta go find her. Shit already got fucked up. Damn it. Here's the thing it's kind of the doctor's fault. Take the child to the candy store. This is like the chocolate factory all over again.
SPEAKER_00I have always wondered why he keeps choosing humans when I know humans are garbage. But you know what? We all have our things. How many times did I have Taco Bell in school? Um, I definitely ate that garbage. And so I feel like we are his Taco Bell. He can't quit us, he wants to, but he just puts more hot sauce and sour cream on it. And he's like, it's fine. It's delicious.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm not supposed to have dairy, but when my grandma offered me a bite of mashed potatoes yesterday, I was like, hell yeah, I'll do it.
SPEAKER_04I get I get it.
SPEAKER_02Listen, I had mashed potatoes in like three years, y'all. That was delicious.
SPEAKER_04We we are Time Lord Forbidden Fruit. I understand.
SPEAKER_02Right. They just love our messy chaos. They're like, what we're gonna do next.
SPEAKER_04They're like, these but these people are so stupid. It's great, you guys. You gotta see what they're gonna do next.
SPEAKER_02Stuckin' guys. Then we cut back to like Rose and Pete in the car, and Pete's just telling her all about his get rich quick schemes, and she realizes he's not the proper businessman that Jackie made him out to be. And Rose realizes that like Jackie will be at the wedding and kind of panics. And Pete asks, Oh, you know, Jackie? Uh, what's what she said about me? And she's like, she said she picked the most fantastic man in the world. But he said, mm, that's a different Jackie than she would not say that. And it's like, uh-oh. Rose is starting to put the pieces together. She's solving it. And she turns on the car radio and it's music that's not out yet. She checks her Nokia brick phone, which I would actually like to have these days. But we get a voicemail of some guy, and it's actually Alexander Graham Bell saying the first thing ever said over the phone, which is, Watson, come here. I need you. And they're almost at the church when the car that nearly ran them over earlier almost hits them again, but then vanishes into thin air. And Rose accidentally calls Pete Dad after they arrive, like that whole accident. Y'all, Rose is really bad at this being sneaky and time-traveling thing.
SPEAKER_04Uh, two things. The song that appears on the radio is a song by the British rap band The Streets. And let me tell you, in 2005, I was actually listening to The Streets because I was such a dumb anglophile that I was like, I must know about this British rap. No, not a good band. What I'm saying.
SPEAKER_02Gavin's Limeyer was giving him all the viruses from that band and Doctor Who.
SPEAKER_04Exactly. Any British virus I could get, that was that was it.
SPEAKER_02Um, and then I mean they are the originator of so many viruses. So many viruses.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah. They do they do like to deposit them in the US as well.
SPEAKER_02We got more chaos coming because Jackie has arrived at the church with baby Rose and the other bridesmaids and meets up with Pete in adult Rose, but Jackie and Pete immediately start fighting because Jackie thinks Pete is having an affair with Rose and calls him a failure. They're just going at it in the streets. She's gonna kill this man. Part of me is starting to think maybe he deserves it. And Rose, this is when she's like, oh shit, my parents' marriage, it's a hot mess. And Jackie really painted this false portrait of their life before he died because she did not want to say anything bad about her dad, like her dead dad to Rose. Oh. And Jackie tells them that if they're not careful, there will be a wedding and a divorce on the same day. And here's the thing: I love Jackie Tyler. I feel like she's always right, even when she's wrong, she is wild. I mean, I get her frustration. How would you feel if your husband showed up to a wedding with another younger woman?
SPEAKER_03That is such a bad bitch line for her to say, we're gonna have a divorce and a wedding on the same day. Get her on a soap. Incredible.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, truly, truly, nobody fucks with Jackie Tyler. That's the that's really what it comes down to. Uh you know, her and her wig, and I keep reading things that's like, oh, she had to wear a wig for the episode. Baby, that's that's at least two wigs. That is a lot of hair. That is that is some wigs sewn together.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And guess what? She looks great.
SPEAKER_04She's not a dummy. She looks great. Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Bring back big hair and wigs. She looks like she was going to an audition for designing women.
SPEAKER_02Maybe that's why I'm always like, oh, love this aesthetic. Everything should just be designing women hair.
SPEAKER_04She's like she's like congenial is not something the women in my family often aspire to.
SPEAKER_00And that's the night the lights went out in Georgia. Georgia.
SPEAKER_04Um, yeah, no, that this is great. Jackie's so good. And also, like, uh, you know, I I think in addition to obviously you don't want to tell a child, like, hey, by the way, your father actually kind of sucked. Um, but I also think when somebody dies suddenly for for a good long while in your life, you do have a tendency to paint them with rose colored glasses as well, too. So I think I think it's a A combination of both things. Whereas I think she's not only telling Rose these things to make Rose feel better about not knowing her father, but to also make herself feel better about him not being there and about the life that she didn't get and the life that she felt she was promised. And so I I you know, I I understand, and that's what why it's so funny that she's so mad at him. And what was he doing with those women in the in that coats? Come on, Pete.
SPEAKER_02Come on, come on, Pete. Also, I feel like Jackie's love language is fighting, which is deeply relatable.
SPEAKER_00I just when she opens telling a small child that her father was hit by a car getting a stupid vase. I was like, this is not good parenting. And then watch the rest of the episode unfold and be like, oh, this is an episode of bad parenting decisions. Um how do you look a few up in the face and be like, oh, well, your dad was hit by a car in the street and died alone? Like, I just of all the things, Jackie. I love her and her wigs, but I was like, wait till she's in kindergarten at least, you know, like let her have five years.
SPEAKER_02Jackie was still processing like five years later.
SPEAKER_00In her trauma, just like, come here, baby.
SPEAKER_02Come here, baby. Let me tell you how your dad died alone, but he was a wonderful man that I hated. I was gonna kill him, but the car took him first. I was like, Jackie, sh. And then we get another great sequence that I feel like Sheree probably wrote because it's really fuck them kids. Those scary creatures are in the sky above a playground, abducting little kids, parents, everything. And young Mickey is just witnessing all of this, and he runs straight to the church, and he's like, It's aliens, it's aliens, and all the adults start making fun of him. This explains a lot. Also, Russell, you suck the writing in this portion. And next thing we know, the doctor is running also to the church, straight to Rose, and we finally see the scary creatures, and they're not they're not actually that scary, but they're dropping out of the sky, and they just start eating the guests, which I think's hilarious. Share, did you write this?
SPEAKER_00I wish I had, because like first off, snatching children and taking them into the sky to eat them. Thank you. Um, secondly, showing up to a church on a wedding day to be like, hi everybody, fuck your drag, fuck your formal. We ate your dad. Um, I was just like, this is chaos. Is this my new favorite thing? Is this my personality? And so I think that might be the episode where my wallet felt I'd be a Hoovie in before I did. Because I was like, I need merch, I need a TARDIS dress, I need a TARDIS cardigan, I need 19 t-shirts. I gotta find this in the wild because this is my brand of chaos.
SPEAKER_04Like the the smug little smile that Rose has when she hears the doctor running up when she's like, I knew you were coming back, and it's like, no, baby, not the time, not the time to to be all like that's the Jackie Tyler in her.
SPEAKER_03She's channeling her mom in that moment.
SPEAKER_02I told you so energy, yes, baby girl.
SPEAKER_04Oh, and I remembered what I was gonna say too, because right before the father gets eaten on his giant cell phone, he also hears the Alexander Graham Bell thing. So funny, like behind the scenes thing. Uh famously, Alexander Graham Bell actually said, Come here, Watson, I want you, which is way more homoerotic.
SPEAKER_02Uh and that was So it's a good thing a gay man rewrote that.
SPEAKER_04Right, exactly. Well, it was it was written that way in the script, and then they decided the original voiceover actor they hired wasn't Scottish sounding enough. And so they hired a second voice actor, and he read the wrong line, and that's how it ended in the episode.
SPEAKER_00If they'd hired David Tinett, it would have been said correctly and it would have been very flirty.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I was gonna say it. It would be like, and I want you back.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. That's an episode of Good Omens for you. Listen, I that's a different podcast. That's after dark. But I love that the doctor's just shouting for all of them to run into the church because the building's a lot older than everything else, so it's stronger, and the creatures will just it'll take a while for them to get through this logic. Sure.
SPEAKER_04So basically, I'm the thing that would protect us four right now. Everyone get behind Kevin, he's so much older.
SPEAKER_00That's fair. All of time and space, your best defense is get in the old church. Like they built things different in the 1800s. Um, we got gargoyles flying in snatching people's parents. I think we gotta have a better defense. I'm so sorry. I love you. You need a better plan.
SPEAKER_02What and the best part of this is once they're inside the church, the doctor tries to genuinely explain what's going on to a very pissed-off Jackie Tyler who doesn't know him. And he's like, There's a wound in time, and these creatures are like a bacteria taking advantage. But Jackie is not listening. She's like, This man is just talking, and it is white noise, shut up. And then this is the doctor's real Christmas because he gets to tell Jackie to go away, be quiet, tells her off. This is his dream, and it's the one time she won't slap him. She should, though. And Rose asks if this is her fault, but the doctor ignores her, and Pete's like listening and watching all of this. First off, I support Jackie white noisy men always. Poor Rose.
SPEAKER_00It's like Lily Reinhardt's whole wardrobe. Um, she has so many shirts and tent tops. It says, I support men's right to shut the fuck up. Um, and I'm just like, where can I find some of that? I would love some of that um for my uniform. Look.
SPEAKER_02I'm getting really good at the red bubble. I should make some. When you do, you know where I live. I do. I need to mail all of you something. Cuts of the doctor and Pete looking out the window at the card that should have hit Pete, and it's just repeatedly driving down the road and vanishing. And I think it's in that moment the doctor really realizes what's going on, but doesn't say anything. And these little creatures, they continue attacking the church, and then eventually Pete finds Rose and asks what she meant by this is all her fault, and why did he trust her enough to give her his keys? And he solves this little mystery box puzzle and realizes Rose is his daughter and they hug it out. What a moment. This somebody in the Tyler family figured out something. I'm kind of proud.
SPEAKER_00That's when I started to worry for him. I'm like, you're too smart to be here. Um I know for a fact smart people suffer, which is why I had to start saying less in production meetings. Um, I'm so sorry.
SPEAKER_02There's a reason why Pete died. He was too smart.
SPEAKER_00Right? Had he been like, I don't know what's going on, let me go play video games, he would have been around still today.
SPEAKER_02And then, like, another small moment that would probably be cut from an episode is as like Pete and Rose are having their moment, the bride and groom just come up to the doctor because they know he knows exactly what's happening. And they're like, if they can save them, cool, but also we're not that important. And I love that the doctor corrects them in this moment and is like, no, you've lived a life I never will be. This is how you met and stuff. I'm gonna try my best to save all of you, but I love that he's always correcting people and making them feel important because they are.
SPEAKER_00Again, watching this episode made me have to say a lot less mean things about what I had seen in the last episode that I saw. Um, and I hate that for me, this growth. I hate that.
SPEAKER_02It's okay, it's a different writer than normal.
SPEAKER_04The uh this scene is exactly what I feel like you meant by like a scene written to save money because it is people that are not like main cast members, they're kind of there. But I this is I I was looking at reviews from when this episode came out, and there were some reviews that attack this scene for being cheesy and kind of too heartfelt for the doctor after he was just so mad. But I think this is character building for him. This is showing the doctor that he is, you know, damaged, but also he loves the small things, like the small, beautiful, and perfect things being like, I've never had that moment in my life. I've lived 900 years and I've never done that thing. That yeah, and I I think that's so beautiful and so sweet. And I think that's what's fun about Doctor Who is that the person who takes over the Doctor, that's the great thing, is that you get a chance to redefine them, to make them something different. And yeah, there are traits that carry over, but it's it's cool that it's like, oh, I'm a different person doing a different thing.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And like this gets to like my overall complaint about TV, like now, 20 years later, where everything is so plot-driven, everything has to lead to something. And it's like, no, sometimes you just need the character-driven world-building moments because those mean more than like, let's find XYZ murderer or go through this hospital thing and see what's going on, because it's like you actually have a connection to these people. Eventually, we cut back to Rose explaining to Pete how she's able to travel in time, but is super vague about the future when he asks about himself. And he is really trying to ask. And eventually, Jackie and a young Mickey come into the room, and young Mickey immediately hugs Rose, and Jackie is jealous of the time Pete is spending with Rose. Honestly, Pete, you could say a few sentences here, like, actually talk to your wife. And Pete attempts to explain who she is, but Rose stops him. But like, y'all, Jackie can't know. And she jokes that Jackie can't even control the timer on the video recorder, and I had to write in here, remember video recorders, kids? This is how we recorded our episodes at the soap operas to watch after school.
SPEAKER_04The line she says about Mickey is so mean, and I I just thought, like, oftentimes a showrunner will do like an uncredited re-rewrite or polish. I was like, that's Russell T. Davies, because he hates Mickey so much. He hates Mickey. He hates him so much, and to do that line, like he'll just grab on anything that comes along, like uh, you know, God protect his girlfriend, and it's like, okay, we know. So it's a really good thing.
SPEAKER_02We entrusted this man to write for the first black doctor on the show.
SPEAKER_04I know.
SPEAKER_02But no, I do like that Rose's whole excuse for don't tell Jackie she doesn't even know how like video recorders work, just about time travel. You can't explain time travel to Jackie, which honestly, smartest thing Rose says all episode.
SPEAKER_04Just to give Billy Piper her flowers, real quick, too. One of the things I I still remember this, Sarah Michelle Geller says one of the hardest things to do is laugh on Q to like make yourself laugh and make it come out believable. And honestly, you can watch some episodes of Buffy, and I love Buffy. I'm wearing a Buffy shirt right now, uh, where you can tell it's not easy for Sarah Michelle Geller. There's a moment here where Rose is like stifling her tears, and her father says something to her and she starts to laugh, and it feels so genuine and so nice.
SPEAKER_02She's such a good actress.
SPEAKER_04I know. That's why, like, when people are mean about Billy Piper, I'm always like, no, she's actually like a really good actress. She's so good.
SPEAKER_02If people are mean about Billy Piper and Rose, they're not invited to the show. Like, you can stop listening. It's fine. We love her. We don't want you.
SPEAKER_00You cannot say anything negative about Billy Piper, especially after everyone hates no, I hate Susie and Confessions of a Call Girl.
SPEAKER_04Like, I loved Confessions of a Call Girl. You have no idea. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So good. Are we gonna do a like a between season spinoff of that? Maybe I think we are I wanted to rewatch it with the gang here.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yes. The fact that is going to be listen, let me reboot that today, please. Also, let me go to London. Like I would reboot the hell out of that. Um, there was so much more to play with and was cut short, like all the good things in life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Billy was busy, but you know who else is busy? The doctor, because they're inside the basilica, and the doctor is babysitting little baby rose, and eventually adult rose comes up to him joking that young Mickey has imprinted on her, which I will say that is a pretty good joke. I do think young Mickey did imprint on Adult Rose. Relatable, though. I I too would see a beautiful woman be like, yes, her. Rose attempts to touch Baby Rose, but the doctor stops her since it's a paradox. And any paradox would make the Reapers even stronger and make whatever point in time they are a lot weaker. And they argue with each other. They say some pretty nasty things to each other, but eventually apologize, and he admits that he's scared and he doesn't have a plan. And the sad thing is, you just know he he knows the real solution at this point. He explains that Time Lords, his people, they used to be able to fix events like this, but they're all gone and there's nothing he can really do to fix it. Rose does apologize and they hug it out, but then she feels like heat coming from his jacket, and she just fully puts her hand in the jacket, and it's the TARDIS key, and it's hot and glowing, and she throws it on the ground because it sizzles her hand a little. And luckily the doctor realized it's connected to the TARDIS, and maybe we can summon the TARDIS back, like the actual insides of it. And you know what? He's got a plan. And he finds someone's old brick cell phone gets the battery off of it, and Sonic charges it at the Sonic charges it as the Reapers continue to attack the church. As he's working, Pete pulls Rose aside to talk and inquires why they came back to 1987 since it isn't anything special. And Rose is truly lip-syncing for her life at this point when Pete asks questions about him and Jackie and if he's a good dad. And Rose paints too good of a picture of him, and he's like, I know this man who never let her down isn't me. That's not right. Uh-uh. What's it say about this man's self-worth? That he's like, I so they're saying nice things about me. This ain't true.
SPEAKER_04It's so sad.
SPEAKER_00So sad, but also I love when people know themselves. And it's just like, I'm not that selfless. I would not show for anybody that much. I must be dead.
SPEAKER_04He yeah, he's polonious style to thine own self be true. He's like, I not a great guy. And so I'm not like that. Can't be me. The uh I do like, by the way, that you, as you mentioned, the doctor like put in there's that line about how his people used to be able to solve stuff like this all the time, but now they're all gone. Because without that, it's like the creation of the Reapers, they are not like they're cosmically so much more than a monster of the week. And yet they feel like just a monster of the week episode thing. And the idea that, like, oh, they are out of control because there are no other Time Lords now makes so much more sense with just a throwaway line. And I'm so happy that's there.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Oh, get, but here we go. Doctors yelling at the wedding party. Don't touch the key. We are gonna figure this out. And he starts summoning the TARDIS, and it takes a while. It's slowly like blipping in and out, trying to materialize. And I love that they're all just chilling in the church while this magic show happens. And Jackie is just turning around, glaring at the doctor and Pete and Rose as they're in the back of the church. And the doctor is explaining that once time is sorted, everyone will forget this happened and the thing that Rose changed will stay changed. And Pete's like, yeah, he'll still be alive, even though I'm supposed to be dead, y'all. And Rose tries to say it's all her fault. But this is the moment where Pete actually like becomes the hero of the episode, and I might start crying. Cause he's like, uh, no, I'm the dad. It's my fault. It's my job for it to be my fault. And Jackie overhears this. This is the part where you're like almost in tears, and then Jackie does something, and it's tears.
SPEAKER_04That's disgusting.
SPEAKER_02Where you're like 12. You're 12. And Pete tries to explain to Jackie that adult Rose is baby Rose and then puts baby Rose in adult Rose's arms, just like throws a baby at her. You're growing that.
SPEAKER_00Pete threw that baby like a basketball. And I was like, what the hell is wrong with you? That is a fresh baby. It can't defend itself and you throw it in the middle of the air.
SPEAKER_03That's crazy.
SPEAKER_02That happens. I've not recovered from crying about Pete saying nice things and being a good dad, to Jackie making me cry laugh, to a basketball baby making the reapers appear inside the church. And y'all, I like that the doctor immediately sacrifices himself before like this little reaper thing flies through the TARDIS that's materializing and it just disappears, and they're all kind of like screwed at this point. And I do like that part of this was just getting Christopher Eccleston out of having to film because his dad was going through some health stuff at the time. So he needed a little bit more time off. But it also gives Rose a chance to help fix things. And I like when humans have to solve problems on this show. So Rose picks up the TARDIS key off the floor, says it's all her fault, thinks it's the end. And Pete looks out the window again and he sees the car that was supposed to hit him repeatedly vanish in the street, and he realizes how he's got to fix it. And he tells adult Rose that the doctor didn't want her to go through losing him again if there was another way, but there isn't. And he tells her about the car that should have killed him and that it's there. The doctor figured it out and tried to protect him and Rose this whole time, but he's not there anymore. And now Pete is in charge. He he tells Jackie to really look at adult Rose, and she does realize it's her daughter. This is the part where I'm gonna cry again. They hug it out as a family, and he explains he's meant to be dead, and she has to survive to raise Rose. And so Jackie and Pete kiss, and he's like, I never read you bedtime stories or take you on picnics, but I can do this for you. Y'all, before we get into like the more sacrificing, what'd y'all think of this? Because this is kind of a great scene, like one of the best of the season.
SPEAKER_00I'm not gonna lie, I'm so stuck on the doctor dying my first time through because I was like, I know he regenerates, but they wouldn't do it in the middle of the season, would they? Would they? Would they? Now that I know the rhythm, I'm like, okay, it's no, but back then I was like, because again, sub opera rules are real, and I'm like, they ain't kill anybody at any time, but they wouldn't, would they? I I don't know. What am I wrong with?
SPEAKER_02In this moment, you are Jody Whitaker because she read the Eve of the Daleks script, where it's like that over and over. And at first she thought she actually died in that episode.
SPEAKER_04She's on the phone with our agent. She's like, No, you promised me another season.
SPEAKER_00She's like, eight episodes. This is for regeneration. No, them in their fake generations. That's why I have stress. Like, at some point, my doctor's gonna be like, What's happened to your heart? Doctor, who has happened to my heart multiple times now.
SPEAKER_02It does because like you get all these beautiful scenes, like one line after another. I do love that Pete's like, I'm lucky I got all these extra hours like with you that others don't get, and that he got to see her, like implying as an adult. This is just so beautiful. And she gives him the vase and he asks if she's gonna be there for him when he dies and thanks her for saving him the first time around. He runs outside and throws himself in front of the car. And I will say the direction on that part was kind of silly because he literally just goes stands right in front of a car. Boom. It's worse than mean girls.
SPEAKER_04I think I think also the drive the what helps sell it as comedy is the driver's like, whoa, whoa, whoa!
SPEAKER_02Like and we've seen the whoa whoa whoa driver like a bunch of times at this point because they close up that they use that shot a lot. They were really trying to fill the time on this episode.
SPEAKER_03That driver was having so much fun.
SPEAKER_04True, truly. Could you give us a bigger take? Sure can. Whoa, it was the hand across the face every time.
SPEAKER_02And I'm like you gotta swipe across the entire ceiling of the car.
SPEAKER_00Like an infomercial, just like, oh no, when you lose control of your car.
SPEAKER_04Okay, do a take where you take the steering wheel off. Sure thing. Wow.
SPEAKER_02Y'all remember how we said leaving it to the imagination's a lot better? Maybe we should have left more to the imagination. Like, cut to Billy Piper's face the moment he hits the road. Like, don't even like show him in front of the car at all.
SPEAKER_04I agree. And cheaper, cheaper that way, too. You're not hiring a stunt man, you're not, yeah.
SPEAKER_00My favorite moment is when after her dad is hit, this man gets out of the car to continue over acting in the street.
SPEAKER_04I was like, Yeah, we're just lucky he didn't really have many lines. He has like, I think you hear him say, like, he came out of nowhere or something. But like, yeah, we're and that almost sounded like ADR. Yeah, exactly. Like is the loop group. Um, I I I agree with you, Chels. The this, like, the acting that Sean Ding uh Dingwall is it Dingwall? Yes. The acting that Sean Dingwall is doing here is really, really beautiful. Um the two things that make me cry in this episode, the opening, even though, even with that bad photo. The and then this is like it's so good. And the idea of realizing that you do have importance, and unfortunately, that importance is that you have to die. Is is so bittersweet, but really beautiful and whatnot. And I I think his performance is really great. And it's also crazy that like this was originally supposed to be Simon Pegg and the scheduling, they he had to go do the the prior episode. I'm glad he did because then obviously Sean Dingwall is gonna be more available if they needed to bring him back for some reason.
SPEAKER_02Also, some might say a stronger actor in the role because Simon Pegg has other strengths.
SPEAKER_04Yes, that is very diplomatic of you, and I I enjoy that.
SPEAKER_00Simon Peg would have met the energy of the driver, and we would not have the emotional beats we have. Exactly.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_02I don't think he was man enough for Jackie Tyler. It takes a strong kind of man to for that lane.
SPEAKER_04But yes, all of this is really beautiful work. And it and like I each each one of them is really doing and even Jackie doing her like kind of confused, but also knowing that something bad's gonna happen. Yeah, it's it's really beautiful. Also, just real sidebar. I I truly think in my heart of hearts, in my two hearts, that the doctor knew that they were gonna figure it out because I don't think like it, and I know that he was written out of the episode for specific reasons with his father, and also everybody was getting sick, and he was sick when they're shooting it as well. But like it seems crazy to me that he'd be like, Nope, I'm gonna sacrifice myself. Good luck to everybody.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Ugh. And then I mean he bought them time, he bought them time. But yes, I do think beautiful scenes all around, tragically undercut by um big choices, big stunt choices, we'll say. I do love that the doctor just reappears next to Rose and tells her to go to him, meaning her dad, and she runs out to the road and holds him until he passes. And it cuts back to Jackie telling child Rose, probably what, six, seven, eight years old, something like that. I can't tell the ages of children. And this is her telling the new version of the story from the beginning, but with the little small differences that the kids stayed until the ambulance arrived, and people say that there was a girl who stayed with Pete while he was dying and held his hand, but they never found out who she was. And I really like that part.
SPEAKER_03I do love that he got to eventually be the great man that Jackie was saying he was to Rose in the beginning.
SPEAKER_02Like he got that opportunity to step up and be someone who's noble, but not Donna Noble, not Donna Noble, can't be Donna Noble, and then eventually we cut back to Rose and the doctor leaving Pete in the street. Oh my god. Sorry, I wrote it like that. Wow.
SPEAKER_04They have to. They have to.
SPEAKER_02They left Pete in the streets and then they just hold hands and walk back to the TARDIS. And y'all, that is our episode. It really ends on such a beautiful, sad note.
SPEAKER_04I I have a quick question. What, if anything, do any of them remember? Because there is still a slight alteration in the timeline in which that Pete actually did arrive at the wedding and then for some unknown reason ran into the road. And like, so I that I want to know. Because to me, that's even more confusing for her now, where she's like, you know, it was a hit and run. But this time it was just like, nope, my crazy husband just left the church holding the vase, ran into the road.
SPEAKER_02I mean, who knows? This is not everything everywhere all at once. Not yet, at least. But yeah, I I really enjoy this episode. I know it's a highlight episode for a lot of people this season, but man, like even when I say the weakest episode this season still has a lot to dig into. This this season just slaps, y'all.
SPEAKER_04It's incredibly hard to do a first season of anything. And I think genuinely, and I think this sentiment would be shared by a lot of people. First seasons have a lot of weak episodes. There just that just is it, and you're right, it is a really solid first season. And like you can you can excuse the farting aliens because there there are so many ideas. And I do wonder if the thought process was go for broke, because who knows if this is gonna work, if people are gonna dig it, if we're gonna have a new uh like ongoing Doctor series. So it probably was like, we need these to be as strong as possible. And this episode really like this is genuinely one of my favorites of the first season. I think it's some of the best performances from both Billy Piper and Christopher Eccleston, too, the way he's able to modulate that anger, but also that sweetness. I we didn't even talk about the fact that like when they watch him die the first time, which is also in extremely fucked up. I I think even if I were a time lord, if somebody was like, I want to go watch someone die, not interfere, participate like at all, just watch it happen. I'd be like, No, we're absolutely not doing that.
SPEAKER_02And like her whole thing is I need to go be with him when he dies, and she freezes. I'm like, yes, that is the correct reaction to that moment. You freeze because it's a horrendous thing to witness.
SPEAKER_04But I love that he takes her hand, and it's such a sweet, and I know that they end the episode that way too. They sort of end back where they began, but it's such a sweet moment and doesn't feel like, oh, they're a couple. It feels like I'm a person who cares deeply for you, and I don't want to have to watch you go through this. I love when they show up the second time, she's like, I don't think I can do this, and he's like, You don't have to do anything you don't want to do. And it's like, Yes, like, yeah, great. He I this doctor is a good guy, even though he has a gruff exterior.
SPEAKER_00He's giving Giles in that moment, and he's just like, the world is hard, this is a kid. Um, and again, that's why it's confusing when sometimes they're romantic. I'm just like, Doctor, explain. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Back back off, doc. Um, but yeah, I I I genuinely love this episode. I think it's so sweet. Uh my like uh this was 2005, so four years after that, I lost my dad uh pretty suddenly. And so media like this is very effective to me. And I already said like this episode makes me cry several times over the course of its 40 minutes. Um, but yeah, it's I don't know. This is really, it's really special, I think.
SPEAKER_02It really is. And I love how much you're emphasizing like this is a doctor with the gruff exterior, and just like is that deeply caring sweetheart? Because I think as we go through Russell's first like regime of this, I think you're gonna see that the 10th doctor is almost the inverse of that, where he is like this happy go lucky on the outside guy, but has so much darkness and gruff on the inside at his core. And we, as the seasons go along, it kind of flips. But y'all, let's get some listener questions. Um, we have a few. Novel from Discord. Hey novel. Uh, what are your thoughts on Rose's dad playing such a huge role in the show after this episode? Should he have stayed a one-off or not? Dun dun.
SPEAKER_00I think remaining a one-off makes it more tragic. Um, that's a thing that a lot of shows run into because it's like we want to bring this back and also tiny whiny in this one, but also sometimes a one and done hurts more.
SPEAKER_02I think I agree because I think one thing Russell is really bad at is he will create this beautiful tragic ending that probably should stay that way. And then he undoes it like every single time. I think of this episode, I think of Doomsday, he undoes it. You think of the Donna Noble way down the line, major spoilers.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I I actually agree with both of you absolutely. My only, I think the only thought process that they had was, oh, well, it's an alternate reality version, and so he can be different and whatnot. And and sure, I guess whatever, but yeah, it it does lose a little bit of impact when you when you realize, like, oh, he can sort of show up whenever he wants. And it sucks that you have to constantly then write in reasons that he can't, you know, do that. But yeah, on the on the reverse of that, do you think this is the reason why the doctor tells everybody there's fixed points in time now? Because he's like, actually, I don't even want to fucking deal with this anymore. I'm just gonna tell people there's things you can't change, we can't visit.
SPEAKER_02Probably, and it's just a good excuse for the show to like the timey whimey of it all.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's his because everybody that enters the TARDIS, he's like, Have you do you know somebody who died in like a really intense way? Sorry, we can never go there. That's it, it's a fixed point in time.
SPEAKER_02It's oh, I was just gonna say, I will say though, they revisit this idea of visiting a family member with the 13th doctor, and you know who's not a crazy one who fucks with time and messes things up? Yasmin Khan. That's my girl.
SPEAKER_00Um, I think this is also a really cool way of stopping like the new generation who was discovering who from asking why doesn't he ever save his companions? Because then people could be eating at a church. Um, and next question, please.
SPEAKER_02Because we didn't want to renew their contracts. They had Marvel movies to go do, they were busy. No, um, yes, I don't know. But yeah, I do think I wish the Rosa's dad had been a one-off. I think there are ways to rewrite things later in series two down the line, even though technically it's a different guy. It's a different version of the same guy, whatever. But then we have a fun question that was emailed to us from Sixth Baker. Thank you so much for emailing us. Everyone, email us questions. Start for series two, have fun. And I love this question. This story has a very simple setting: the church, the street, and a scene in the flat. So if you were to choose a simple, low-budget, mundane setting for a Doctor Who story, what would it be? I mean, the possibilities are endless. I love the mundane.
SPEAKER_03I already said mine on I guess it's gonna be an upcoming episode. We record these out of order, FYI. We're timeless. Um, we can do that. Yeah, because I talked about how I would bring Belinda to the club because we didn't get to see her and the 15th doctor at the club. Time was rewritten.
SPEAKER_02We need to know those stills of Shooty and Virata in the club shaking their asses. So hot, so beautiful. We need that version.
SPEAKER_03Full episode just at the club.
SPEAKER_02The disco ball is the alien.
SPEAKER_00I never finished old school who, so I don't know if it's been done or not, but I would like to see them in a diner because I love a tight-knit space. Um, and those are just like places where people crack. And so it'll be stuck in a diner um with a waitress who's had it and the patrons who need to probably be hit in the face um because they're being awful and not tipping. I think that's an amazing place to be like minimum wage is also awful while we solve international intergalactic problems. Like, I just think that'd be a little fun.
SPEAKER_02I mean, oddly enough, the episode we just recorded, out of order, that Paige is referencing, was Boomtown, where they have that beautiful scene in the restaurant. And I'm like, give us a whole episode of that, Sheree. That is your homework. You have to write that for us. Thank you so much ahead of time.
SPEAKER_00It needs to be a bottle episode, and it needs to just be this watching the tension rise, like identity, but in a diner. Um, midnight meets community. Yes, yes, and there's one slice of pie, and it's everybody's favorite, and a fight would set over that in the middle of everything else. Like so Jackie Tyler's winning. 100%. 100% she would give her a slice of pie while everyone's fighting over it. She's clean into her wigs and nobody can take it from her.
SPEAKER_02Gavin, do you have any episode mundane ideas?
SPEAKER_04I would set it in a 90s toy store, and then everybody would be like, ooh, something spooky's happening. And I'd be like, uh, leave me alone. I'm in the action figure aisle. I'm just playing with the action figures.
SPEAKER_02I'm the person breaking in, getting a Game Boy, and starting Pokemon Yellow from the beginning and being like, There you go, leave me alone, everyone. But then Pikachu jumps out. That's how we blow the budget. But yes, oh my goodness, I love that Roofman idea, Gavin.
SPEAKER_04I truly Roofman meets the doctor. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Just because my entire life has been taken over by dogs, I just want an episode where they're at dog school and they get stuck there, but they have to figure out which dog in dog school is the evil alien disguised as a human dog. So this is my pitch for everybody. And spoiler alert, my dog Mosco is the alien.
SPEAKER_00It's such a Clara episode.
unknownSuch a Clara episode.
SPEAKER_04Truly, truly is a Clara episode. Yeah, there you go.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. She'd be the confused one because if Yaz was there, she would know immediately. That was such a fun question. Thank you so much. And y'all, there's not too many behind the scenes or extra notes. We talked about Simon Pegg was originally cast as Pete Tyler, but because of scheduling, he couldn't be there. He was in the long game instead. You know what? I think we're better off for it. Just like the overall timeline. And just because this made me giggle from the TARDIS wiki page, Billy Piper was scared of holding the baby. And you know what? That is Shere.
SPEAKER_00Me, me, me, me.
SPEAKER_02I get it. Children cannot be on set for very long. No, release them. Use a fake baby, which apparently they did.
SPEAKER_04Thank goodness. It's even funnier though when you think about the fact that like she barely touches that baby and they like yank it away instantly. And so it's like even But they throw it in her arms like that basketball.
SPEAKER_02This is air bud right now.
SPEAKER_04She has so little time to have contact to create the Blinovich Limitation Effect, by the way, which is a which is a a real named event that people it it's from the 1920s about two, you know, objects from different timelines being in the same space. Blinovich Limitation Effect. Love it.
SPEAKER_02I love that. Gavin is actually smart and brings intelligence to this podcast.
SPEAKER_04Well, I'm just good at memorizing things that I need to know later.
SPEAKER_02I'm good.
SPEAKER_03It's so impressive.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02Meanwhile, I'm just if a Looney Tune was an auctioneer. I am three tired girls in a trench coat. I don't know what's going on anymore. Beautiful. You are a beautiful tired girl in a trench coat. Which forbidden fruit are you?
SPEAKER_00Pumpkin.
SPEAKER_02Love that. So just a couple little notes. The writer Paul Cornell is the creator of the popular spinoff companion, Bernice Summerfield. So everyone check out her novelizations. The audios, they're super popular. Go hit up Big Finish. They always have a sale. There's a new sale every day. And speaking of Big Finish, the current Ninth Doctor Rose audio spinoffs with Christopher Eccleston and Billy, they take place after this episode. That's where the timeline starts. And they're super fun. They're sure. I think you're gonna like these because there's like scary shit happening at the Powell Estate. There's ready for it. It is so good. Y'all companions, thank you so much for wandering on to the TARDIS today. I promise we'll finish renovating your rooms after we get off this episode. Let's remind the listeners where they can find you and all your beautiful work. Sharee.
SPEAKER_00At Ms. Share on Instagram, sharee.bsky.social. That is the quickest way to find me and just like choose your own adventure with my podcast and my articles. It's it's so much better than listening them all again because you're all tired. I'm tired.
SPEAKER_02We love a link tree, you know. Listen, listen. Gavin, remind the beautiful people where they can hear you, check out all your wonderful work, maybe some of the chaotic stuff we've done.
SPEAKER_04The Q Division podcasts, the mixed reviews podcasts, and you can find me at sh it's Gavin on Blue Sky or GavinMev at uh Instagram. It's actually Gavin Meav technically, but I don't because my last name is pronounced Mevious, but I do Mev to make it easier for people to spell G-A-V-I-N, M-E-V. But yeah, you can find all that stuff. But seriously, listen to listen to both the mixed reviews and the Q Division. Uh we have such a great time and continue listening to this show. This show is amazing with two amazing hosts.
SPEAKER_02You're all so kind. This is how you get your invites back. We'll we'll work on scheduling for series two after this.
SPEAKER_04Even if I could never come back, I would still say it. I love you both.
SPEAKER_03We're gonna fix up your room on the TARDIS, make it even nicer.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna give you those vaulted ceilings.
SPEAKER_04You're gonna put it near the red pool because I can see red.
SPEAKER_02You can see red. Fine. You get extra glitter at the party. And thank you for listening to Across the Universe. We can be found wherever you listen to your podcast. Please make sure to rate and review our show. You can find us on Instagram, Blue Sky, Tumblr. Links are in the show notes for all of this stuff, by the way. So you don't have to remember how to spell Gavin's name. It's fine. Or you can email us at across the universepod at gmail.com. Page, remind the time lords where else they can find you and your lovely work.
SPEAKER_03Let's see. They can find me at Thoughts by Page on Blue Sky. I am Hay Smithers on Tumblr when I remember I have one. I am PaigeNabel Kaiser on Instagram. I am also on the sh my stories are on feed with Chelse and our friends Jesse and Owen talking mostly about reality TV and soaps. I also have a substack you can subscribe to that's called Girlhood and Low Resolution, which is about being a girl on the internet in the 2000s.
SPEAKER_02Right during this time. And I'm Chelsea 725 on the blue sky, serialized, sometimes letterbox, probably just for the Julie Andrews stuff I've done for the mixed reviews lately. And I'm Chelsea Eichels on Instagram. And if you can find my Tumblr, you're stronger than a Reaper. And you can listen to me and my fellow companion/slash agent Gavin on the Q Division of James Wan Movie Marathon Podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm also on and a rewatch pod where we re-watch a bunch of our favorite shows. I really set myself up for failure with these sentences. But no, me and Jen, we're going through Karen Gillen's tragically canceled selfie. We're going to talk about the tragically canceled show Sweet Vicious from a decade ago. Oh, Sharae. This is a Sheree show, by the way. And then we are actually going to have a little format-breaking episode about filler episodes and slow burn romances. Because guess what, y'all? We missed 22 episode seasons. We also miss 13 episode seasons of Doctor Who. And then, of course, shh, my stories are on with Paige. It's a good time there. We're silly billies. And be sure to join us for our next adventure across space and time as we revisit The Empty Child and the Doctor dances. So until next time, we'll see you in the Time Vortex.