The Dark Side of America's Next Top Model, Provider Dynamics & Jesse Jackson | Raised By Her

Was America’s Next Top Model groundbreaking television… or televised trauma?

This week on Raised by Her, we break down the explosive three-part documentary Reality Check: Inside America’s Next Top Model and the cultural reckoning surrounding Tyra Banks and ANTM.

We unpack:

• Tyra’s defensive response to the documentary
• The infamous “Italy incident” involving Shandi
• The controversial forced dental work (“gap tooth” makeover)
• Why ANTM winners struggled to book real modeling jobs
• The exit of the “Jays” and Nigel Barker
• And whether reality TV crossed ethical lines in the name of ratings

Then we pivot to another viral headline: reports that ASAP Rocky pays 100% of Rihanna’s household expenses. Does a billionaire need a “provider”? We explore 2026 financial data, relationship economics, and the racial dynamics shaping modern dating expectations.

Finally, we close with a heartfelt tribute to the late Rev. Jesse Jackson, reflecting on his civil rights leadership, impact on broadcast ownership, and the enduring message to “Keep Hope Alive.”

This episode is about accountability, power, money, media, and staying authentic in a culture that often demands performance.

Timestamps:

0:00 We’re Blessed and Highly Favored: Weekly Catch-up
 0:26 Why Everyone Is Talking About the ANTM Documentary
 1:42 Tyra’s Founder Journey & the UPN Near-Miss
 2:31 Was Tyra Unprepared for the Interview?
 7:44 The Shandi Italy Incident Explained
 14:23 Did Tyra Exploit the Models Twice?
 19:04 The “Gap Tooth” Makeover Controversy
 26:10 Why ANTM Winners Didn’t Get Booked
 34:58 The Exit of the Jays & Nigel Barker
 41:42 Mixing Business and Friendship
 49:56 Tyra’s Ice Cream Pivot
 51:57 Rihanna & ASAP Rocky: Modern Provider Debate
 56:22 Race, Money & Dating in 2026
 1:00:47 Tribute to Rev. Jesse Jackson

🎤 New episodes every week. Honest conversations between mother and daughter on family, womanhood, and navigating life across generations.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Welcome back to Raise by Her. Please feel free to like and subscribe. What's up?

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Well, today is another day. It is. We're blessed and uh highly favored. It's been quite a week.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Yeah. I mean, the thing that I feel like has been dominating this week is the new documentary on America's Next Top Model. And we talked about it a little bit when the preview came out a few weeks ago. Was it a few weeks ago? A few weeks ago. But reality check inside America's Next Top Model premiered this week. I think it was this week. And it's, I feel like that's just dominated all conversation everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

It has. It's dominated not only social media, but broadcast media and just uh all the medias. All the medias. And what's most interesting about that, when you mentioned it, uh, I think a couple of weeks ago, you were talking about the fact that as um a younger woman that you watched it and you were excited about it, that it was something that you sort of planned some time around so that you I was entertained. Yeah, I was entertained. It appears that a lot of the world was entertained. It was one of the most successful first reality shows that existed.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

I feel like this documentary was well done. I was captivated because I remember telling you, I was like, okay, I'm gonna start to watch it and probably fall asleep to it. And I binged like the whole three episodes, and I was like, oh no, no, I'm not gonna get my my full night's rest. But I enjoyed hearing all different pieces at different times, but also the uh the journey of what Tyra went through to even get the documentary started, how she um had the idea and then had to find kind of the right producer, and so called around to her network and then eventually got to a place where they could take it to broader media networks, and UPN was the very last stop and it was the very last chance. And I was like, oh, how relatable as a founder and a business owner and a business person. I mean, I just uh that particular piece at the beginning of the documentary, I was like, I appreciated her sharing that.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

She talked about the journey of being able to dream of something and then see it into reality. Now, she was not a part of making this documentary, though. So I just want to make sure we clarify that. So that's true.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Yeah, she actually kind of showed up looking a little unprepared to me.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

And not looking like she really wanted to be there. Um, not only did she look like she wasn't prepared, but I'm not sure she looked very comfortable in the seat that she was in as they were questioning her throughout the documentary.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah, it made me wonder. I was like, didn't you know where you were going? Didn't people prep you? Why did you even decide to do this? I mean, I have some theories that we can talk through, but I was, I, you know, people even like from the way she looked in her trench coat, folks were like, we probably would have made a different decision in terms of how we were going to present the information. But I was like, I don't even know if she knew what she was gonna say, what she was going to say, because at one point they were like, What was the hardest part of the show for you? And she couldn't answer. And so then they had to kind of prompt her, like, oh, well, was it this as it pertains to one of the models, Tiffany, that um kind of blew up and she was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go with that.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

And it's like, ma'am, I I think that the documentary was designed to not only give the background of how this very successful television show uh took place, but because it was an earlier reality show back in 2002 when they first started, that uh this was an idea that she had. It was an idea that was almost before its time in terms of how they went about producing it. And yet it just blew up and became so big. There were shows like that then around the world, just like America's Top Model with uh other tires and other judges and and and all of that. Um and I I I believe that just from watching her and her demeanor, was she not only not comfortable talking about what the show uh eventually became, but I think she was uncomfortable because she knew that there were some backstories that were now going to be revealed. And I think that's where the discomfort came.

SPEAKER_03 4:31

But then wouldn't you wouldn't you just prepare for, I mean, the the questions uh some of the questions I had, number one as it pertains to this, is wouldn't that just prompt you to prepare for what you think that the questions might be? And then now I understand from a legal perspective that there's some things you can say, there's some things you can't say. Um, I I get all of that, but I also don't know that we all have things in our past that if you know, 20 years later, maybe we would do differently today. I think that there's ways to talk about it and address it in a way that truly talks about it and addresses it and maybe takes at least even if it's not taking accountability, it's at least acknowledging that you are aware that it was an issue. Like I feel like we got none of that. Like almost like she was she was staring blankly when you were like, You realize this was an issue? She was like, huh. It's like, no, I'm like, is there something like what I I realize you've been in Australia for for a while, for a while. You haven't been a part of this reality. And and we have both been to Australia, it is quite removed, you know, and so but I'm like, yeah, beautiful, yes, beautiful country. But like it's um you do you do know why you're here, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:49

So in not only watching the documentary, which of course is on Netflix, and uh it is a three-part series, so we want to just sort of establish that. So you perhaps begin watching one and then have to, like as Donica did, go to episode two.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

I didn't have to, I was compelled. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Okay, and then and then episode three. But but um her her demeanor, I I believe was not only um difficult to watch um and watching the documentary, but her demeanor was almost removed from the reality of the things they were talking about. That's the way that I felt. I agree. And that was that was difficult. Uh, was she prepared? Um she must have known that there was going to be some hard questions. And I guess she decided she just did not want to answer them. Or I was thinking about this um after we had decided we were going to uh to talk about this today. Maybe she just kind of wished she had done uh or produced the documentary because it's my understanding from um watching some of the other individuals involved with the show that they had been approached a few times about doing this thing. Yeah. And um and there had not been a lot of uh cooperation. So I'm wondering, I guess when they decided to go ahead and move it forward, maybe that was a part of what we were seeing in terms of her resistance.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Yeah, I mean, I think for sure, because uh she was not an executive producer on this, to your point. And so I think for sure she watched it along with the rest of the world after it was released. And so I think you're probably right after watching it, she uh probably does wish that. Well, maybe, I don't know. Because yeah, I just feel like there was such attachment, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

We can speculate. Um so let's talk a little bit about uh the content of what what it is that that you saw and why did you were you compelled to go ahead and watch all three episodes?

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Uh the behind the scenes I found to be uh just fascinating across the board. I mean, like I'll start with the story about Shandy, who was one of the models on one of the earlier seasons, and she experienced certainly sexual harassment, possible sexual assault, and possible rape. And it was all documented. It was all filmed. Yes. And so I that was shocking to me. Now I remember watching that episode, uh, but I of course didn't understand the seriousness of what was going on because what we see in the documentary now is all of what was going on behind the scenes and the fact that everything was filmed, they talk about how they didn't show everything. And it was like, what? There's there was more. Um, some of the other participants in the documentary, some of the judges, the Jays, which we will get into a little later as well. They talked about it. Love the Jays. Love the Jays. Yeah, the Jays are fantastic. Um, they talked about how the look actually, let me, for those of you that didn't watch it religiously, like I did, the scene um that so many people are so disturbed by as it pertains to Shandy, um, is that the models were in Italy and they were going on what is called ghosties. And so they were going to audition for various roles. And the way that they were getting around the city for these ghosies was on like mopeds. Yes. And they had these uh young, attractive men who were taking them from place to place to place to the different ghosties. And so at the end of the day, when everybody's back in their model loft and uh ready for the evening, I will say initially it was like somebody had the idea to invite the guys over for a party. Yeah, just like social. Yeah. Um, but uh the Jays said that uh look during this show, every single moment of these girls' lives was planned out. Every five minutes, they knew it was going on. And a model on this show would not have had the, they didn't have the authority to say we want to bring the guys over. So the producers were absolutely involved in making that happen and probably even initiating the idea to have it happen.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

What was most disturbing about this um particular episode and what you're describing is that you have adults who know what's going on or what could go on, or you have the gentleman being invited to participate in this uh social gathering. And then you have this young woman who finds herself not only in a compromising situation, but also being assaulted, and no one is uh saying anything about it. No one is stopping what is occurring. Um, today this would not happen. Today, in 2026, this kind of situation would not even be allowed.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

On on film.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Well, on film. It should be broadcast.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

We should be clear, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

And so it's um it's really disturbing to know that in uh back in the early 2000s that was allowed, that was permissible, and that none of the producers stopped it or thought it was inappropriate. I found that to be just just very disturbing.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Well, I think one of the producers, okay, and so and so uh what happened, um, they were drinking, and these girls are tiny, right? They're they're models in the 90s, I mean, sorry, early 2000s. And so she said that she drank two bottles, probably like two bottles of wine. And so everybody was hanging out, there's nothing wrong with the party. She she has a boyfriend as well, that's relevant, and he was very much a part of her storyline. He's the one that suggested that she even model and come on the show. And so uh they're in the hot tub, uh, and then they move to the bathroom because people are like, Why did you continue to film? And they were like, Well, you have privacy, or they had privacy if it was just one person in the bathroom. And so, but there were two people in the bathroom, and so that is why we were able to go in and continue to film. And then the next morning, she wakes up and she was like, I remember him on top of me, but I can't really remember much else. But I knew kind of something had happened, and then she was pressured to call her boyfriend almost immediately on film, on film, and she filmed yeah, on film. They made her do it on film, and then that was a devastate. I that was a devastating uh conversation. And and I mean, she was just uh uh uncon. I mean, she was just what's I don't even have the language for it.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Well, I I mean the she was out of control in terms of uh remorse and embarrassment, um, and probably scared as well. I mean, you don't know. Are you are you are you gonna be pregnant? Are you gonna have uh a disease? I mean, you you have all of this this sexual first innuendo and then reality on film.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

And then she said uh the producer that filmed that call did uh he apologize because he, I guess he could feel the discomfort. He maybe he in the moment knew that it was because he was she was like, he was like, you know, I'm so sorry that we had to do that.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

So as I'm watching this, I'm thinking, America's next top model. What does this have to do with modeling? What did this particular episode and all that occurred? Normally you're seeing the the models prepare for their um their photo shoots, for their engagement, the touring the cities. This is after the show became more and more popular. What did this particular episode, or how did they take this particular scenario and make that a part of the show itself? I did didn't remember seeing it way back during the.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Well, I think that was probably one of the things that was really interesting about this documentary is that it was revealed that this was in fact a TV show first and a modeling uh gig show um second. And so, you know, it's kind of like, oh, I don't know that anybody had thought um clearly the producers in the network and others um thought that, but I, you know, as a viewer, that's not that wasn't my understanding.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

So that's one of the reasons why it probably became one of the top um television series at the time, because it was so new and it was a reality show that really stepped outside outside the boundaries of that which would have been permissible. So again, in 2026, this would not work.

SPEAKER_03 14:05

Uh wouldn't work in that way in particular. Um, but then also I think what kind of blew my mind and blew other people's mind is that going back to again this one instance of Shandy. So, all right, she has that experience, she eventually leaves the show. And um many years later, uh, where this was reintroduced back into the narrative, Tyra Banks now has her own talk show. She brings Shandy back onto the top show, uh back onto her talk show and uh wants to talk to her about the experience. And Shandy doesn't want to talk about the experience. She says no. She says no. And Tyra's like, well, I'm just gonna show the clip. And Shandy was like, I don't want to watch the clip. Right, absolutely. Tyra shows it anyway. Shandy does not look at it, and she's like, You didn't even watch it. And Shandy was like, I I like, yeah. Well, so it's like continuous behavior, it's not even like the strange and abordinate behavior is isolated to early on in the show. It's like there's continuous examples throughout in terms of like kind of bad decision making.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

So, what that indicated to me was that Tyra knew how devastating this particular episode uh was in this young woman's life. And still here we are a few years later, bringing it up again. And she chose to, I think, exploit that opportunity again. Um a lot of insight into the Tyra Banks behind the scenes, the executive producer Tyra Banks, which was also um enlightening to me because it's not the person that I had admired from being a young model who had gone through all of the things that one knows that you go through if you're African-American and you're out there um being one of the one of the few breaking into whatever field it was. So that was that was disappointing uh in in terms of how she went about, how she Tyra went about continuing to, I believe, exploit this particular scenario. And it that speaks a lot to the character um of the woman that came up with this great idea that we began to see really behind the scenes who she was in a more realistic way.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Yes, I mean that's a part of the challenge here in that, and I know two things can be true, three things can be true. You know, there is this woman who is Tyra Banks, who has done all these amazing things and is a black supermodel in a time when actually there probably still aren't too many black supermodels, but I mean, just to your point, all of what she had to go through, and then there's this other side, which uh, you know, stories come out periodically. There's some stories about between like her and Naomi Campbell, and you know, so there's like little things, but certainly not to this degree when you have some power and control in a situation. And I think a part of the challenge here was that uh there was a lack, I found there to be a lack of acknowledgement on her end about the power and control that she actually had on her show because she did have when she was being interviewed and answering questions, talking about how even bosses have bosses and that there's no sacred cows, and you know, and and it she was a part of the show, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And I was like, there's but everyone knew that the buck stopped there with Tyra. Everyone also knew everyone on the show knew that uh she had the final say so. Everyone knew that she had a lot of editorial as well as creative control, and everyone knew that, especially when the show became so popular and they were making so much money and becoming uh like a worldwide uh phenomenon in terms of the uh the broadcasting world, everyone knew that a star model now had created this uh this phenomenal TV show. And so there was a lot of power and control that she had at that point.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Yeah, I think um I saw a clip uh that talked about um how much she still owned once the the television show became all of what it was, and you know, because she often promotes the fact that it's an it was airing in 170 countries around the world. Uh 25% is what she was able to maintain in terms of control. Because she at first she was like, you know, uh yeah, because it's I'm partner with the network, we license this out to different countries or or different uh companies, and they're they're responsible for having Heidi Klum um be the be the host in Germany, and then Miss J, you know, was one of the hosts in one of the other countries. And so um, but the the interviewer did a good job of saying, uh-huh, I've read that you have 25%. She was like, Well, okay, I will not confirm and do that, deny or I will not confirm or deny, but wink wink.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

What I also um felt was very disturbing, there was a particular episode where a woman had uh a gap in her teeth. And I could just yeah, I I could really I could relate to that. Yes, we can. Yes, we can. Um but it just reminded me of the definition of of beauty and how people really didn't consider if you had a gap in your teeth, that to be uh acceptable in the world of uh photography, in the world of broadcasting, in the world of modeling, period. And it was something that the young model really liked because it helped to identify her. But the TV show um insisted that she have dental work done. And for her and also for another model who did have uh some challenges with uh with with her teeth.

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Uh so she had she actually had some challenges with her teeth. She did the other woman who's one of the black models of had a gap in her teeth, relatable to us because we hereditarily have had gaps in our teeth and closed ours with with braces by choice.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Well, yes, by choice, it was something that that I wanted to do because I was um when I was younger, but um Rosa said absolutely not, this is a part of who you are, you're already doing television shows, and that's a part of you. So don't do that. I was uncomfortable because again, it wasn't part of the standard. And so uh, and initially you were okay with it until you were a junior in high school, and you you said, uh, and this is because mommy was always saying, You're beautiful as you are, don't worry about it. And it's you, but when we got ready to take those those senior pictures, that's when we had started having more of a detailed conversation.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Really? I remember it differently. I remember having an issue with it in middle school, going into high school. And you didn't want braces, exactly. That's what it was. I didn't want to do what was necessary to close the gap. So I didn't like the gap, but I didn't want to go through the process of getting braces. But yes, by my junior year or sophomore year, whenever it was in high school, I was like, I will just deal with it for the one to two years of braces I need.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

So what we're saying is we can identify with the feeling one way or the other, absolutely or the other way. And uh, I could certainly appreciate the model's mother saying, Look, if you don't want to do that, don't do it. But then she felt forced into doing it. And there was the scene where she was saying, uh, I I don't want to do this. And yet she went ahead because it was going to be meaningful to her modeling career.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

The career she thought she was going to have. Right. Yeah. Um and then And also the orthodontal work that both her and Joni was the name of the other model. And I just know these names because again I was watching.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

That's good because I I don't remember the names. The people, yes, but the names no.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

Yeah, that whatever orthodontal work they did have done, they still have issues. Or she in particular still has issues all these years later and her bite is still off. And so I, you know, if you are gonna force folks into medical care, which I don't think is a good idea, you know, at least try to get some quality medical care there.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Again, that behind the scenes story was very disturbing to me when I was watching it, because I'm thinking America's next top model. So I'm thinking of the world of the beauty and the fashion, not of someone having to go through the pain, or the models really being made to feel that they are less than, because that was a part of um the whole narrative. In order for you to be who you can be, you have to change yourself in this way and this way. And that that's totally unacceptable as well.

SPEAKER_03 23:07

It is unacceptable. However, I also think that there is some re I mean, these are it's models, it's modeling. What you look like matters. This was that's true. Um, and there's been some change now, but we're again if we're going back to the early 2000s and just and still just some change. This it's not like there's been a massive industry shift into the different standards of beauty necessarily. Um, but Tyra said that uh she was prompted to address Danielle's gap because when she was going on the go sees with clients, um, they said that she will never be a model. We would never hire her. The people that were around would never hire her with that. So it wasn't like out of nowhere necessarily that Tyra was like, oh, we want to close the gap. She was getting feedback from quote unquote industry folks that it needed to occur. The Joni woman had a whole like extra snaggle tooth hanging out and some other issues. And so I this is not in defense of, but I do think that context matters. And you ideally you have a choice to make when you are presented, like, okay, I can either try to push through on this issue or I can try to make a change.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Because the standard of beauty is uh so different in in many cultures, in many situations. One of the things that Tyra Banks talked about when she started this particular reality show was that she wanted to set a platform where the modeling industry could be able to not only appreciate but accept all kinds of beauty. She knew the difficulties because she had lived it. So she wanted to be a different kind of platform. So then you fast forward to high success, and then you decide, okay, you're gonna be like everybody else. I really take the issue with that.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

I agree with you because another thing that's like which is wild, is that a few seasons later, um, there was a girl that came in that had a small gap and they widened the gap in her teeth. And it's like, now wait a minute, which one that's absolutely it? Yeah. Um so yeah, just some really tough stories. And I think another part of what was interesting that I kind of grabbed onto is that a lot of these girls were coming from really uh tough family backgrounds or economic backgrounds or whatever it was, just tough backgrounds. And so I just talked about choice, but I do feel like that's a big factor in feeling like if you have a choice or not. You know, this is kind of their what they viewed as their opportunity to get out.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

The backstories were um uh were enlightening. And I also felt that this opportunity to be able to break into an industry where you're considered to be beautiful and fabulous and also could make a lot of money was something that that was uh exciting. Of course, it would be to anyone, a teenager, young, young woman, young girl, a way to change your life and maybe change the life of your family as well. But that didn't even happen for many of the women who were America's next top model.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Yeah, Danielle talked about this as well. By the way, she looks fantastic. Oh my gosh. I mean, she was beautiful then. She's she's beautiful now, but uh just striking. Um, and so yeah, she won her cycle. Um, and but then she talked about how she didn't have the career that she thought she was going to have, or that she felt like she was promised, that she went, uh she was being represented by Ford models. And so she went when she walked into the room or walked into the building, she felt a coldness. And she was rooming, there was a model loft that they had, and she was rooming with a model who has gone on to have she was not America's next top model, but just another model. Her name's Chanel Amon, another beautiful black model. Yes, yes, and so at some point, um, Chanel asked the agent or agents, uh, why isn't Danny getting booked on anything? And they were like, Well, there's a stigma with America's next top model. We only uh, you know, hire out real models.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

So when I heard and and watched that particular part of the documentary, I thought, okay, there's something missing here. Because if there is a stigma, and that stigma is not to be able to deliver what it is that was promised. I mean, you you get the contract, it's not that it's promised. Um, you get the um the financial reward that that was promised.

unknown 27:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

But you're not going to be a top model in the modeling industry. That's never that was never communicated throughout the um the time frame of that show. Uh, and so I began to think, hmm, how many of the models? There was a model Eva, I remember who um the Diva. She was um beautiful. She was shorter than a lot of the uh the other models, um, but uh an African-American sister who you did see in a lot of commercials, and she did a lot of photography and um as one of the top models. Um, and she was not actually a part of the documentary, though.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

Correct. So there's actually another documentary coming out because another one of the people that uh was heavily involved, at least in a few seasons, but had her own um massive, she's framed as the very world's very first supermodel. At least that's what she called, excuse me, calls herself Janice Dickinson. And so they're like, we want to hear from Janice, who was um, you know, in this documentary, they talked about how Janice was a bit of an arch nemesis for Tyra and they did not get along, but she was very hard on the girls from her perspective. She was like, I was telling them what the truth, yeah, the truth about what the industry is. But going back to one of your points about what was promised and the expectations, I think it's a little bit of what does being a top model truly mean? Because Danny did go on, she was in several campaigns, she worked uh for Baby Fat, she worked for just several other brands. And so she did have a career. Clearly, it wasn't the career that she thought she should have had had based on what um either she was promised or her own expectations. But for me, that begged the question: what is a top model? Because there are many, many models that have outstanding careers, whether they're regional models or national models. Uh, they can make a living, you know, they just what does being a top model really mean? Is it being Tyra, where there's really only probably less than 10 Tyros, if that, you know, in history, was that the expectation?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Oh, you can you can name them whether it's uh Naomi. I mean, you can't. Yeah, I mean, or Giselle Buncheon, or yeah, you can. Um, I don't know the answer to that, but I I do know that um if you want to compare being a top model to the winners of some of the other reality shows, like uh like American Idol, or think about it, the careers have been um careers that the individuals have been able to not only win the top prize, but then go on and move forward and to be able to be successful, to be successful in terms of their um the singing career if we're talking about American Idol. Now, financially, we Wait, real quick on that.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

So you think there's been more uh successful, and I it's success is you know all relative, but but but more successful winners of American Idol in terms of their careers versus successful America's next top models and their careers.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

I don't have any statistics that would that would say that, but I mean when you think about the Kelly Clarksons of the world, I'm I'm just thinking comparing different time frame though, different prizes. Um the American Idol um winners are promised. There's a cash award, and then there's a record uh deal that goes along with that. And and so, and then something there's a touring piece that goes. So I remember that's the way that started. I'm not really sure if there's comparison, and then there's so many seasons. I mean, I think the America's top model had something like 20-something seasons.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

I think I think it was 24 seasons because some people are like, and I maybe at some point in the Dr. Mary, she was like, ready for season 25, and everyone's like, nobody wants that. After watching that again, some of that disconnect.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Um but um so but I guess it it's hard to compare back in the early 2000s to where we are in uh you know, 20, 25 years later. Um, but the expectations are different, and I think that the dream is still there. I think people still participate in these reality shows and these competitions because the American dream is still a part of what they want. Um, they want to have the financial success, they want to have the career success, they want to be able to be recognized, but also I think they want to be appreciated for the talent that they have as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Mm-hmm. At some point in the documentary, though, I again this idea of expectations. Um, I can't remember who was talking about it, but it was somebody on the production side, and and they were just talking about expectations. We are in fact giving you a platform. You have the potential to win all this money. You have the potential to be signed to an agency, which is not necessarily something that's easy to do. You have these options now. Um, what are you going to do with it type thing? You know, and they and they were like, otherwise, you wouldn't, you probably never even would have been to New York or wherever they were in the world, or some of these girls, you know, they were traveling abroad for the first time. It's uh so I think that idea of kind of expectations is an interesting one because I think that there absolutely are folks out there that are like they they had the platform. I mean, and in I can actually name a few other Winnie Harlow. Um, are you so she uh and actually I had forgotten that she gotten she had gotten her start on um on America's next top model. She didn't win, but she had Vitaligo. And she is now a international supermodel as well. And so the expectation can't be I go on this show for 24 seasons and for 24 seasons and there's going to be 24 supermodels come. I mean, I did that's crazy to me. But, you know, I'd you know, if you can go on and have some level of career, you know, maybe that that's just a phase of your life and you go on and do other things.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

We go back to the origin of the show and what the expectation was. And if you listen to what Tyra said, she wanted to help individuals to not only break into the modeling field, but she wanted to help to change their lives so that they could have a certain kind of life and lifestyle. It's an opportunity, it's an opportunity to be able to move yourself and your life and your talent and your skill forward. Take what you have and to be able to make it work for you. And then you mentioned earlier the backgrounds of many of the young women. So it's life-changing for you and your family if you can be successful. So that then there would be the expectation of having some mentoring. There would be the expectation of being able to maybe have some financial counseling. There's there's just a whole realm of what we call real life experience. If you have not had the opportunity to have a background or a family unit or the support systems, when you win this kind of an award, an opportunity to be able to move it forward so that your life changes in a way that is positive, not so your life is changed and you've been traumatized and that you have to be in therapy for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yes, which clearly a bunch of the women that was there, their experience in terms of the trauma that they endured on the show. So I hear you. That's um, yeah. I mean, it's just uh there's a reason that it's been in conversation and um across all the media outlets. Let's talk a little bit about the Jays, her best friends, allegedly.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

Allegedly, uh, yes, and I watched a couple of shows um in addition to the documentary uh where the Jays were interviewed.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

Um we tell folks who might not know who the Jays. Okay, you can tell them. I can tell them, okay, so they were with Tyra from the very beginning, and as she was conceptualizing the show, they were like, Okay, you need um, I was gonna say photographer, but Nigel was a photographer.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Nigel's the photographer. Um, Mr. J was the He was a runway coach. Right. And then Jay Manuel is the um, he's one of the producers. Like the creative director. Maybe that's okay. Thank you. Thank you for how we get there.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Okay. So um I can't remember whether it was Mr. J, the creative director, who is of South African descent, by the way. I didn't realize that. I think I always thought he was Hispanic, probably because Jay Manuel's his name. But anyway, he's age fantastic as well. Yeah, he looks great. Um and he's doing well too. He is he's he's yes. Well, they all are, thankfully.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Well, based on Miss J has had some health challenges. Um but um that's okay. We'll go ahead and talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

Yeah, yeah, we'll dive into that later. Um, and then Miss J, who learning more about his, her, their background, I loved that. How he was like, I am where um I am, and I got to the point in my career that I got to because I just stayed true to who I was. I made you six four African American man legs for days. Gorgeous legs, legs that any of us would love to. Oh my goodness, and could walk. Yes, yes. Well, that's he could walk into every room like that. Well, you you can if you had some teaching and coaching. But those were the two, and then yeah, those were the two that were with Tyra, helped her conceptualize, uh get creative with what the different photo shoots would be from the very beginning. And they were on for a very, very long time, but were and they were judges um on the on the show, and they just had a kind of a bit of an awful exit. Nigel as well, but Nigel's entry into America's Next Top Model, I thought was interesting. Tyra was good with her Jays, and she thought that was powerful. The network came back and was like, you need a white male to be uh on this.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Oh, you need an attractive white male. Yeah. They they had a a description of exactly what kind of white male they wanted her to have um on the show.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

But it yes, yes, they did. Yes, they did, yeah. And that probably hasn't changed much in broadcasting. I mean, look, what you look like matters.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

What you look like in life matters. Yeah. So we talked about this on the podcast. And how you present yourself matters, it all matters, but it has to be, I think, how you look, how you feel, based upon yourself, what's deep down inside of you. When you try to just be what the standard industry wants you to be, or try to be something that you're not, then you're not gonna be happy. You're going to have other challenges and problems. And later on, you will wonder why did I allow that to happen to myself? Because being your authentic self is just so important across the board. Agreed, agreed.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

So um, that panel of four was there. I don't know, was it for 20 seasons? For they were there for a long time, 17 seasons, they were there for a long time. And uh Mr. J talked about as this show grew and evolved, and uh the network stayed the same, but the leadership of the network changed, and Tyra apparently changed a little bit as well, that he felt like it was time for him to to exit the show, and that they told him, No, we need you to stay on. And so he agreed to stay on for a little bit, but then he was iced out, not just from production the network, but from Tyra as well, and then eventually ended up leaving. Um, but what seemed like a very traumatic experience for someone. Um, I mean, we all have traumatic traumatic experiences in the course of our work life, but I felt for him. And in watching, watching his recount of that overall experience, I felt for him.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

I felt for him uh as well. You believe that your relationship with someone is not only longstanding and authentic, but you really believe that the other person cares about you. So um, and and this is from deep love and respect, friendship that you would think would would be there in spite of all the other stuff because they've been through so much together when he decided to that he needed to leave, not just wanted to leave, but he needed to leave. Um, and he could not get in touch with her to have a conversation with her. So he he um wrote her uh a nice Well, is that what happened that he couldn't get in touch with her?

SPEAKER_03 40:01

Because I was like, if you were if y'all were as close as you said you were, I knew you were close to the beginning. Yeah, she was she was off some other path. I was like, why would you send an email?

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Well, because well, and um that's probably why she sent a uh three-line email back to him that uh uh that hurt his feelings. Um, but uh yes, he said she was not uh available uh at the time when he just finally decided this is it. Okay. But he came back and he stayed several several seasons. It's just his relationship with her changed from that point forward, and their communication was never ever the same. Um and he he felt hurt by it.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

It's a difficult thing to navigate personal relationships and business.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

You're like correct, and so I mean I I I absolutely would seem and she refused to address it. Like they straight up asked her what happened, and she refused to. She was like, Well, we should have a phone call. And Jay is like, she never calls, never answers any call. She never never communicates. Well, you said we still have not talked to this day. So um, but um it sounds like a breakdown in communication, but that is a challenge, I think, when you when you try to mix business and personal relationships. But then when you are in the trenches with people, you form those strong bonds. And so it's it's I think it's just tricky across the board.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

You form the strong bonds, and what you hope is that, as I said before, that it's real, it's authentic, and what we have is stronger than just this professional relationship. A lot of people go into business together, a lot of people start businesses together, a lot of people have their dreams together. Um, it doesn't always work out, but you'd like to think at the point of separation that what we had before we could still have. Maybe not on the exact same level of.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Well, you say it's a hard ass, but well, I think you you if you go into business with somebody, you should understand that five years later, 10 years later, 25 years later, the nature of the relationship is gonna you will never have what you had because you're gonna go through so much in building a business or having a partnership or or whatever it is. Like I that's to go back, whether or not you are in business or no relationship, I ideally, I think, is the same, you know, 25 or 20 years later that it was initially, because people grow, right? Or no, you think that there's some relationships that stay, I don't know, stagnant's the word.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

But no, no, no. I think people grow, I think the relationship grows. Well, let's think about our podcast. When we wanted to start it, when we started talking about it, it was during the pandemic, and it took a while for us to get to this point. It's because uh life changed. Um, you've grown, I've grown, I had different responsibilities. We finally came together. But if for some reason we weren't here doing our podcast, I like to think that our relationship well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:53

That's okay. You understand my point? I do understand your point, but I also, you know, that there's a strong mother-daughter bond here. And I think if you were to just ghost me and not answer my phone calls and just stop showing up and stop participating into all of what this guy, I would be hurt. Do I think if we could survive? Probably based on the strength of our relationship. But I mean, that would be a big, a big valley, and that would be really painful. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

You were like, I can't even imagine doing that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I can't imagine I can't imagine doing that. But that's what happened. So it makes me wonder what was really there before. Yeah. However, however, when you listen to um the three the three gentlemen um talk about their relationship with Tyra, they all, I believe, were hurt in some way because at some point the network decided to let them all go from the show. Just change the show completely and totally. So Nigel was. Gone and uh Miss J was gone and Jay Emanuel.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

And Tyra says that was not my fault, as she said with everything. That was the network. And she's like, but they don't believe me. And from their perspective, they're like, no decision like that would have ever been made without Tyra at the table.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

So we're doing a lot of speculating here, but um truly, when you look at the facts and the details, we'll never know because we were not there. But you look at the facts and the details and you understand that Tyra was Tyra who she was before, and she showed exactly who she was at the end of that situation with uh her two dear friends and uh and the photographer that became very much a part of the the three of them. Now they've done interviews since this documentary has has come out, and they've all concluded that it was a great run. Um, but she is who she is. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Yeah, and but that yeah, yeah, and there's pain there. I mean, we've talked about Mr. J. Miss J suffered a stroke, and I think so many people weren't aware of that, and he's still recovering and um still is recovering to be able to walk. So currently he can't walk, and I think that was all really devastating for us to witness because you could um he remains authentically him. Yes, he does. Um, but then so Nigel and Mr. J went to visit him, and um Tyra never called him, text him, has been to visit him or anything. And even like he was like, But you know, um, you know, maybe she will in the future. And I like in my mind, I'm like, sir, if she hasn't come to visit you in the past five years, I, you know, I don't, I don't know. But that but it is so it's that type of stuff that I just my heart goes out to them, particularly since there seem to be a really strong relationship at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

What I'm hoping is that this documentary uh allows several people to be able to heal their relationships, it will allow people to be able to grow on another level when you have a chance to still be alive and to still say, I'm sorry, when you have an opportunity to just come and say, you know what, I just really screwed up, then say it because you are still alive and well. And I'm sorry, or I wish it had been different, or I wish I had made other decisions, is something that is easy to be able to say today because you've grown and if you've grown. Well, if you're still alive and you Oh, then you're still growing.

SPEAKER_03 46:34

No, because I'm just I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you don't have to do it publicly, so the legal accountability, you know?

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 46:40

Be in the same room.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Because what what I I believe that you have the opportunity always to do is to make something uh better, make it right. I agree. Yeah, you can. You can. The other person may or may not receive it, that's on them. And I've had situations in my life where I've been pleasantly surprised that someone has come back to me and said, you know what? I am so sorry. I did not handle that well. I did not treat you the way that you deserve to be treated at that point. Um, and I'm sorry. And I I think that that I believe that the person, uh, the people, the the two people I have in mind right now, um I received it with grace and I appreciated the fact that they stood up and um and were able to say that to me. One person um became a a good friend again, uh, and very near and dear to me and close in my life. The other person, I just I I gave them grace and said, I hear you and I understand we all go through stuff. And moved on. And moved on. Yeah. So um but all in all, it's a it's a series that is worth watching for not only the reasons of what was going on behind America's next top model, not only because of the storyline, but because it does indicate how people really feel when they're going through various experiences in a way that we would never know because we're seeing all of the glamour and the lights and the glory.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

Yeah, I just two more things that kind of took me out. One was the fact that these models couldn't use their photos um in whatever modeling career they were pursuing after America's Next Top Model because they were so heavily photoshopped and edited and ridiculous in some ways. You know, they're like, we don't need you uh laying in a Greek salad. You know, that's not helpful for a client or the agency's like, I can't pitch this. What is happening? Um that was the TV show part. That absolutely was a TV show part. Um, one of the things we we didn't really hit on, and we we've talked about this at length, so we don't have to dive into it. But uh, you know, in their intake, they ask you all these questions about who you are. And then the show got to a point where they leveraged some of those stories in some um really what I would view as inappropriate way. So for example, one young girl talked about how um her mother had been shot um and was now paralyzed. And so in her season, then when she was selected to come onto the show, they had a photo shoot of being uh, I don't know, like dead in different ways. And her um she was cast to play somebody who had been shot in the head and just laying dead. And she was like, I couldn't do it because I mean she did it, but she was like, it was so traumatizing because of my lived experience. So we've talked about like a number of troubling things, but we don't we didn't really we did we more than scratch the surface, but like it just kind of went on and on and on in terms of kind of the wildness of what we were witnessing and watching kind of inside the behind the scenes. And then lastly, I'll just say um, so are you gonna try any of Tyra Banks ice cream uh moving forward? Because that I mean the the ending of the documentaries really took me out. I was like after all this, really, man.

SPEAKER_01 50:06

That really threw me that exclusive for a person who loves, you know, I love ice cream, it's happy. I mean we love ice cream. It's our go-to. It is our our go-to. And um I I have not, as of as of yet, um, it's probably not something that um that I would really be interested in at this particular point, only because the bad taste in my mouth that I have from the back end of America. We have other choices. We do.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

That's just me today, so but we we know where her future ventures are because she was very clear about what she wants her legacy to be in the ice cream business. That's what she said.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

So I know this it's uh see, life is life is real. I mean, we're here for the pivot. Life is real, the mercy of the transitions, yes, yes. So oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

Okay, so then another thing outside of this documentary that came onto our radars was a report about Rihanna and ASAP Rocky. And so I have to pull up my ASAP Rocky.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

And so ASAP Rocky is her husband. Um, and her go-to number one.

SPEAKER_03 51:21

Are they married or are they just partnered?

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Oh, I thought they were married.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

They might be married. I actually don't know the the answer to that question.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Well, there's a question for you.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

I think they are at a minimum partnered, and uh they are together. They are together with them. They have children.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

So maybe, and and that's probably the old school me, thinking that they probably are married.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

We got other options now in 2026. We people do it all different types of ways.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

People do it all kinds of ways, but yes, I thought when uh when I was looking at uh this particular social media um story, I thought that they were because she's pregnant and they have children. Anyway, yes.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

So there was a report that came. No, Rihanna revealed, allegedly, um, that for the past for over three years, she hasn't spent a single dollar on any household expenses. And that and that ASAP Rocky pays every bill, takes care of the kids, supports her business, and handles the home like a real family head. And this sparked conversation because Rihanna is a billionaire. And so it prompted me to do some like additional research around finances and relationships in 2026. And so just here are some interesting statistics that are relevant to this particular story. 30% of women out-earn their partners, 70% of Gen Z still wants a provider dynamic, and couples fight about I'm sorry, you said 70%. 70% still want a provider dynamic. Okay. And couples fight about money about 58 times per year minimum.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

So historically, um, the idea was for the man to be able to take care of the household, take care of the woman, to be able to take care of the um responsibilities outside the home, be able to bring in the money. Um, and the woman was historically responsible for taking care of the home, taking care of the children, making sure that the meals were cooked and the house was clean and all those things. Um we we began to change um in the late 50s with expectations as more and more women became involved in the work world, the real world of work.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

If you don't mind, just want to reframe that for a second. As women started women winning their ongoing battle for participation in the workforce for more economic freedom and mobility.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

That's reframing it.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

Yes, Donna. Yes. No, that no, no, I mean it it's it's it's true, um, out of desire, but also out of necessity um as as the world was changing and more opportunities were coming, um, I think coming our way. Uh it never even dawned on me um after college not to work. I mean, that was something that was um it was just something that I was going to do. However, I went to college in the late 60s, early 70s with many women who didn't go to college necessarily to work. Some of them did, but they went to college to get married to find a husband and to be well taken care of. So I just wanted to say that because as you're giving those statistics, it's uh it has changed dramatically over the last 50 some years.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Well, that's interesting because I I think that the economics continues to shift as women gain more and more economic power. But I don't know, and why this story was even a point of conversation, I don't know if uh societal expectations are shifting as fast as people's ongoing behaviors. And so to this point, like even and I don't look again, with this is speculation, nobody is in Rihanna or ASAP Rocky's relationship, but um there's still that pro he still wants to be clearly he wants to still be the provider and uh the financial um head of the household, despite what it is, how much money she makes or doesn't make. And so I don't know that there's so I think that part has remained the same, even though there now could be more flexibility. And I and I understand that we are in an economically challenging time in the United States at the moment. In the world, actually. Okay. In the world, in the world for a variety of reasons. Um but I at least in my my friend groups in in the women I talk to, and again, that's such a small segment, but it is my lived experience. There is still usually a desire for the man to be um a provider. Even if the and these are women who are working and have great careers and you know, they have their own money. Um, and what that money provides them is options um for more choice. I will also say there's a there's a racial dynamic to it as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

And what do you what is that racial dynamic? What are you talking about? How does that fit into the conversation?

SPEAKER_03 56:30

I find that uh my black friends tend to be more open to being the provider. Uh, these are women I'm talking about, so uh are more open to being the provider or splitting expenses in a certain type of way. Whereas um, you know, my white friends, I mean, some of them are open to it, but a lot of them are like, no, I mean, I want a husband to be the provider, and I will bring these other things to the table. And then if that works for him, great. If not, then I'll just keep it moving.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

When I think about the conversations um over the years with my friends in the various decades and generations, um, two things just really stand out. First and foremost, uh, the desire is to be able to have a happy household and to be able to have the necessary resources to live the lifestyle that you want to live. And so if it means that you combine your resources to be able to do that, then that's what's done. That's okay, because it's more important for the family as a whole to be able to live and go and be reach their goals, whatever those are.

SPEAKER_03 57:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 57:37

Uh, collectively. The first the second thing that that comes to mind is that um when you are uh at a certain age and you no longer have the opportunity to be with a uh a male partner or another partner that has resources or income, you have to be able to take care of yourself. And so the conversation has been either the first as I described, in being able to combine the the monies of the household to live a certain kind of way, or make sure you have prepared yourself for later in life when you may find yourself alone and you know how to take care of yourself because there were then many women later on in life that did not know how to take care of themselves. They didn't know anything about the economics within the household, they didn't know how to pay the bills, they didn't have resources, and they were sort of left either trying to raise the children or to have the rest of their life set up in a way that they just were just not comfortable because they didn't have the knowledge. And so today it's changed. Financial stability um is something that people should pay attention to, and it is changed in terms of at least the opportunity to learn how to take care of yourself and to be able to make sure that you are preparing for the future in a certain kind of way.

SPEAKER_03 59:00

Yeah, I mean, finances is still the number one driver of divorce, so it's still clearly a topic. And I money, money is a it's it's it's it's an interesting thing because I think it represents different things for different people and it kind of ebbs and flows, but uh something absolutely to to consider. And you know, if you're going to marry someone, certainly ask as many questions as you know to ask around the finances because it makes a difference. And that's your point, it ebbs and flows. And I think maybe a part of what my generation saw is some of the challenges uh you were talking about with your generation is life happens. So if you are fully financially reliant on a partner, then uh if something happens, you know, what is your backup plan? And there are just so many women who I think that we witnessed and we saw didn't have a backup plan, and then how devastating that is for them and if there are children in the picture and for their children as well as they try to rebuild.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

One of the things that that mommy used to say all the time to me, and this rose represents uh my mother Rosa, and what she made wanted to make sure that I said to you is that you need to know what you need to know in order to be able to have the kind of life and lifestyle. Uh prepare yourself. And it's wonderful if you have a family and a family unit and you can do the things that you want to do, but things happen. So make sure that um at the end of the day, if something happens, you are able then to take care of yourself because you don't want to be educated and still not be able to live the kind of life that you deserve to live. And so it was really good advice, mom. And I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:38

That is good advice, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. And so lastly, I mean, we can't end this week's conversation without talking about the impact of Jesse Jackson because he passed away this week, which um I know it was after a long illness, so I won't say it was a shock per se, but I think it's definitely a deep felt loss for our community.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:02

It was a deep-felt loss for our community. Uh, personally, it was a deep-felt loss because he represents uh a time of not only the civil rights fight and the movement, but also a voice that was just so powerful to be able to help the African Americans in this country to move forward in a way when we needed to hear that voice. Um I did have a chance to uh to meet him a couple of times. Personally, I um had him as a guest on um the show I produced for uh for PBS many years ago, show called Like It Is. Uh, he would come in and he was just the person that you'd see um on the um on the TV shows and the person that you would see when you go and hear him speak. Um mom and dad took me when I was younger to a lot of the various rallies that we would have here um in uh in our hometown to be able to hear him speak um as well as to be able to hear what the plan was for the foreseeable future. So uh Jesse Jackson represented not only the cause of um folks of all colors, because remember, he was Rainbow Push. He was uh when you were a teenager, I took you to Chicago to um be able to go visit um his headquarters there and to uh attend a um a voting uh rally that they were having there. So just to be able to experience being in the room with a man whose voice was at large and loud, but the message was very important. Not only the I am somebody that he would say for for young people, but when you're talking about keep hope alive, you're talking about making sure you do what you need to do to move it forward. Um he was a gentleman who I think uh never gave up. And so to me, powerful. It is powerful. You're you're at a um an age and stage in life where you're getting older and you're seeing those individuals that you worked with and that you all fought the hard fought together with, and you're one of the last ones standing. And then when he became ill, I think it was it was difficult. Um he was a man that had challenges, absolutely. Um but he was the man that always um would fight for the cause and for that we respect him, we appreciate him. And I can honestly say that I sit where I am today because of some of the fights that he was a part of, changing the rules of um broadcast ownership with uh the Federal Communications Commission, the FCC, at a particular time after years and years of fighting, uh the FCC then opened up the opportunity for women and minorities to get into broadcast ownership because most of the broadcast stations, radio and TV stations, were owned by white men and corporations and they they fought for the diversity. And I was able then to apply for a license to be able to build a new facility uh and sort of fight my way through the the uh the realms of doing that. And uh Jesse Jackson was one of the voices that I could hear in my head that said, just don't give up. Don't give up that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:31

Well, I what a perfect message. I mean, usually we in the podcast saying live a life you love, but I think it's very appropriate this week to leave on a couple different messages, one being don't give up, don't give up, the other being keep hope alive. All right, thank you. We'll see you next week. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

She's got wisdom, she's got sex, she's got questions, she's got let two voices can lie like waves and daughters. That's the key.