No Jerks Allowed: Real Talk on Leadership
Leadership isn’t rocket science, we just overcomplicate it. This podcast delivers real talk on building trust, tackling brilliant jerks, and developing leaders who coach and develop others with integrity, with practical insights for talent and HR leaders as well as external coaches and consultants.
No Jerks Allowed: Real Talk on Leadership
Brilliant Jerks & The Power of Organizational Courage
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, Stephanie Licata is joined by Angela Cheng-Cimini for a candid conversation about toxic leadership, the “brilliant jerk” problem, and the organizational courage it takes to address bad behavior at work. Together, they explore why high-performing but harmful leaders are so often tolerated, how fear and power dynamics keep people silent, and what HR, executives, and employees can do to build healthier cultures. Angela, CHRO of The Chronicle of Philanthropy and has served in senior HR leadership roles at Harvard Business Publishing and Crabtree & Evelyn, brings deep perspective on psychological safety, accountability, and knowing when it’s time to speak up, or move on.
Host: Stephanie Licata, M.A. A.C.C. | Learning & Leadership Consultant
Contact: stephanie@stephanielicata.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephanie-licata-m-a-a-c-c-1ab8573/
https://stephanielicata.com/
Guest: Angela Cheng-Cimini | CHRO / Board Advisor / AAPI Champion / Keynote Speaker
So, welcome everyone to this next episode of No Jerks Allowed: Real Talk on Leadership. So, in this next episode, uh, we are going to be tackling that topic that I mentioned in my very first episode about those brilliant jerks. And we're going to be combining it with this concept of organizational courage. So, usually organizations kind of deal with this by maybe looking the other way, maybe chalking it up to a bad day. We've all worked with these brilliant jerks. They hit their numbers. We might even call them rainmakers, but they leave a trail of burnt-out colleagues in their wake. So the persistence of these jerks is not just a talent problem. It's really a courage problem. The breakdown happens when sort of the tax of this toxic culture is seen as the price we pay. This is just, you know, it's what we got to do. We got to put up with it. They kind of make, they cause a lot of results. And so I have invited a very special guest, Angela Chang Semini. She has an incredible background and incredible expertise in the HR speech and the HR leadership space. And I'm going to invite her to the podcast to introduce herself because she has extensive executive leadership experience in this area and really the professional backbone to call this out. So, Angela, would you join the podcast? And I'd love for you to introduce yourself, tell us who you are, what you do, what you serve, and we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for such a lovely introduction. Really very, very kind of you to say all those nice things. Um, I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you, Stephanie, for inviting me on your podcast. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. In short, I'm a 30-year plus career HR professional, studied it as an undergrad, found my calling really early, um, and have now found myself at a small nonprofit media organization at the Chronicle of Philanthropy, where we serve leaders, fundraisers, and grantmakers in the nonprofit sector, helping them to navigate the changing landscape.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much. And you really brought up this concept of uh organizational courage. And you and I connected uh in Troop HR, right, which uh is uh a networking uh organization for HR leaders. And you brought this concept up of really speaking about organizational courage. So just in a in a sort of a nutshell, what do you believe is sort of this the single biggest barrier to this organizational courage, to leaders in your space really speaking up and taking that step to say, hey, no, we're not gonna tolerate this type of behavior. What do you think in a nutshell sort of is that barrier?
SPEAKER_01It's the good old-fashioned fear, right? That we we imbue these conversations with so much risk. And there feels like everything is at stake that we really have to be very, very pressed or um really have the nerve to bring forward really difficult conversations. And frankly, that's what leaders need to do is to be able to tackle the difficult problems that are not easy to have and not easy to solve for.
SPEAKER_00And so inside of that fear, it seems like there may be a belief that if we let this person go, right, this person that may be producing a lot for us, but at the same time, there's maybe some abusive nature to the way they're treating people. They may be working people to the bone. Their fear maybe there's some maybe something tied into that we're gonna fail if we let this person go. But what why do we assume that the organization will fare, fail if we remove that person? What's that belief about? What's happening there?
SPEAKER_01Well, in some ways, I think in that instance, Stephanie, HR is its own worst enemy, right? We have all sorts of metrics around the cost of turnover, right? That you lose productivity, there's disruption to the team, disruption to the business, then there's the challenge of waiting through all the applicants. Are you going to find someone that, you know, you have the same level of confidence, if not greater? Then there's the learning curve of having them come in, right? So the status quo is just a lot safer and much more comfortable.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so, but they're not sometimes people are not counting the cost of the people they've lost, right? At the expense of this person. So they may have lost five or six people to this leadership faux pas, right?
SPEAKER_01And not even physically lose, right? I mean, you might might just have caused disengagement. So employees might stick around. There's nothing worse, I think, nothing more demotivating demotivating for a high performer than seeing a low performer tolerated, A, for their low performance, but B also for their bad behavior. That just really compounds.
SPEAKER_00And so sometimes there'll be an incident, right? And might it might move up the chain to someone in HR. And we might hear the expression, oh, that person was just having a bad day. And so when you and I were discussing preparing for this podcast, you've kind of noted, well, sometimes people fall into this eternal optimism trap. And how do we stop making excuses for these patterns of behaviors and not label them these one-offs? Like what interrupts that?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a great point, right? We have to break the cycle. And that really requires a much larger conversation around why do we fear these conversations? Why do we believe in the myth that if we trade out this brilliant jerk, as you cause them, call them, that we wouldn't possibly be able to replace them. And the brutal fact of the reality of the labor market today, February 23rd, 2026, is that the labor market is chock full of really talented people. And even in the best employer markets, even in the worst employer markets, there is always talent that's available. You can always trade up. Right. There might be someone in your organization right now who's ready and is waiting to be discovered.
SPEAKER_00So I was thinking about after we spoke, I was like, what if you turn that eternal optimism towards we could find someone who's a brilliant leader? Like, can't we turn can't we repurpose that frame that eternal optimism to we believe we can find someone who is a brilliant producer, but that has this emotional intelligence in this leadership area? Like, let's, if we're if we're so going to use this optimism, let's use it in this area where it helps us find the person that's going to do both. Right. So if we have the capacity to be optimistic, let's let's point it that direction. Right. So, you know, sometimes there is the truth teller, right? So you've, you know, there are the people that do say something. And, you know, you've might have been in one of those meetings where you are the only person speaking up, maybe at a table of, you know, talent leaders. And or you may have been a person where you say something and you say, hey, this person might have been causing this disruption. And after someone whispers to you, hey, thank you for saying that. Let's talk about that moment. Why didn't they speak up with you? What's holding that person who's whispering to you after the meeting from speaking up? What are they afraid of?
SPEAKER_01Well, sometimes it's easier for someone else to do the heavy lifting, right? Like that, they've got that covered. So I'm just gonna kind of sit back and see how this all plays out. And then there is a sense, well, this isn't really my fight, right? I'm I'm just sort of a bystander, which is an excuse that I think every executive leader should completely abandon, right? There is no innocent bystander on the executive team or any leadership capacity, frankly. And then their third is it's back to the fear, right? There you there's just too much personally at stake. They'd rather let someone else stick their neck out than have them take on the risk.
SPEAKER_00Right. So they're figuring, well, if someone's saying something, then I don't have to. So if someone else is taking care of it, I don't have to be the one. And so, but what happens when the brilliant jerk is the CEO? Because as an external provider, this has happened to me before, where I've come into an organization and I've been told that we have all these problems here and you need to fix them. You need to fix these leadership problems. And then I'm working with the CEO and I'm seeing the way the person is talking to the team, the directors or the leadership team, or I'm seeing what's happening and I'm realizing some of this is happening because of the leader, right? So you've mentioned, you mentioned when we were talking the fear of rotting out the boss to the board. Is speaking that truth is going with that information, is that scenario, is that really career ending? Like what is that? Is that possible? Could that be career ending?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. But that's only one possible outcome of many. And then certainly would not be my first choice, right? My first choice is to have built a strong, trusting relationship with my CEO, with that leader, so that they know that when I'm holding up the mirror and giving them constructive feedback, they know that it's coming from a good place, that it's well intentioned. It's only about making them a better leader to help strengthen the organization, that I have no personal agenda. I mean, I have I have little motivation um to tell someone that they're not good at something just because I've got nothing better to do, right? As the HR leader in the organization, I am one of the stewards of conscience, of culture for the organization, and of driving high performance. So if that means having a heart-to-heart with a colleague or my CEO, I feel that's my professional obligation to do so.
SPEAKER_00Right. And it doesn't mean we're coming in and saying, oh, this person's terrible, we got to get rid of them. It's more about there, it's a possibility that we could bring awareness to this person. And if they're open to it, they they can shift the behavior, right? It's if they're open to the feedback that this awareness could bring about a shift and a contribution. It's not that we're saying we're labeling people bad or good. Okay. Sometimes people's behavior has been tolerated because no one's actually had a conversation with them before. Because people up until, oh, well, that's just that's the leader. We don't talk to them. We don't, we don't give them the feedback, they're in charge, or we that's just the way things go, right? And so if we've never had that conversation, we don't know how that feedback might go. And it can be delivered responsibly to invite that person because sometimes people are not aware of the impact of their behavior.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think if you go into those conversations, assuming goodwill on my part, goodwill on your part, right? Sometimes those conversations can be incredibly productive and can build even greater trust. You know, thank you. Like I recognize that that that was difficult for you to tell me that. I appreciate the service, the gift that you just gave to me.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we're not trying to, again, we're not trying to attack people's character. Uh, we're not trying to, because sometimes people believe this is what they have to do to get the job done, that we have to use force, that we have to use intimidation, that we have to use fear. And sometimes it's also partly like generational. Whenever I do, I'll do training on the multi-generational workforce. I'll say, hi, you know, I'm Gen X, the last generation raised on fear, right? We were, we were like taught, like, oh, you know, be afraid, like just keep your head down, like do your work, right? It's like, and and generations after me were kind of taught this more self-advocacy in the workplace. Whereas I was not taught, I was taught, like, just go to work, do what you have to do, keep your head down, don't say anything, right? Don't say anything to your boss, don't give your boss feedback. Like no one was ever taught, no one ever told us to give our bosses feedback. Like that was just unheard of. So I just did that. I had bosses that did really crazy things, like throw chairs and yell. And I just thought that's what you were supposed to just accept that kind of behavior. But someone 20 years younger than me would never tolerate that kind of workplace. Whereas I would be like, oh, this person's just a little bit intense, right? I was just trained to accept those types of things. So sometimes we also have to understand that, you know, depending on, you know, our understanding of what is acceptable, different people might have different thresholds for that. So we talk a lot about psychological safety in talent and HR, but how do you maintain it when the power dynamic is very lopsided? When we have someone who's sort of dominating with a certain dynamic, how do we maintain that when we don't have that, we don't have it, we don't have that climate of psychological safety?
SPEAKER_01Well, if you're specifically describing a culture where the leadership, the person with the upper hand is dominating, then establishing psychological safety is almost an impossible task, right? The person who does have greater rank needs to be self-aware, needs to recognize that there is a leadership imbalance inherent in the relationship, and then at work to equalize that so that they can get the best out of the people on the team. That's a non-starter, right? I mean, if it psychological safety has to be nurtured, it has to be role modeled. It doesn't just come because you tell people to be candid with me, you know, give me the truth. Come to me whenever you need it. Because that's that's an insincere offer. And so that comes from your role modeling behaviors being predictable. There's nothing worse than an unpredictable boss because you never know which version of your boss is going to show up that day. So you might plan a message and one day they were actually really receptive. Then the next day you get Jekyll and Hyde and they're completely terrible about it. And that kind of leadership can really wreak havoc on an organization's ability to build psychological safety. Yes.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we have to kind of also realize that all of this is not just on HR or talent leaders. So, and you've been firm on this in some of our conversations. Solving for toxicity is not just on the talent function or the people function. So, where does HR's influence end and leadership's backbone need to begin? Where does this line, where is this line?
SPEAKER_01That's such a good question. I mean, I I don't know. There shouldn't be a line, right? I mean, I think I think everybody has a responsibility to nurture a healthy culture. However, I think employees have an expectation that if there's to be any function that will protect and shepherd organizational values, it would be HR. They're not expecting their CFO to step into that, they're not expecting their CMO to do that. They're hoping the CEO is modeling that kind of behavior. But HR is sort of seen as the function that really flies the flag for that, which is why we're so often seen as responsible for curing toxic work environments. And when actually it's everybody's responsibility. But having said that, HR functions really fall down on the job when they don't take the lead, when they don't see that they can be and should be first mover on rectifying really bad situations.
SPEAKER_00You know, and it's important that, you know, we might have some people that are listening that are leaders, that are employees of organizations that are committed to understanding, you know, how to survive in organizations. So we talked about establishing credibility to be able to call out toxicity, not as a grievance, but also as a commitment to, especially if something's happening to you or something's happening to other people, because chances are if this person, this leader in an organization is exhibiting toxic behavior, it's not just happening to one person, right? So, how do we help people call out toxicity, but not as a grievance or a complaint, but as making the organization better for everyone? How do we empower people to almost craft their communication in a way so it lands not as this rants, not as this, you know, outlandish grievance, but as I have a concern. And I want to make sure that I come to you responsibly as it's a genuine concern for the health of the organization. How do we help people who might be listening that might need to craft one of these communications to HR?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's one of those, you know, perfect coaching opportunities. Hopefully, you've got an advocate in your in your manager and you ask them to help coach you. Hopefully, you have allies across the organization who see and have experienced the same thing so that there's a built-in sense of compassion and sympathy, and you can role play with them. There's also AI, which makes a great um sparring partner, right? Play the role of the toxic leader who has shown in the path that they've been resistant to feedback. There's something I would like to take up with them, play the role, tell me, coach me through how I can give them that feedback. And you can do that, you know, really privately, and you iterate the prompt so that it gets closer and closer to real life. That's a really useful tool, something that didn't exist just a few years ago. Absolutely. Um, you know, so my hope is that people have established enough relationships and support systems within the organization that they don't feel like they're going in alone. And of course, they can always and should avail themselves of age.
SPEAKER_00Good. And absolutely. And we, you know, we talked about when we were talking, we talked about the power of one. And, you know, in, you know, even just in being a citizen or a parent, can you expand on the idea that it doesn't have to be this giant group of people to make a shift in an organization that one person actually can make a difference? What is what's your stance on that?
SPEAKER_01I was sharing an anecdote with Stephanie earlier that I was going home for the day and shared an elevator ride, and an employee literally turned to me and said that I changed her life. And she actually had to sort of remind me what it was that I did. And it was actually nothing more complicated than setting her up with a mentor. And she'd just really gotten so much about it, how much gotten so much out of that relationship that she said it literally changed her life. And it wasn't anything that had a lot of fanfare or banners or splash, but it was just a really good coupling, a really good connection between two people that, you know, that I that I think I I took the time to make the match and it just worked out really well. And so sometimes those moments are the ones that can be most impactful because that person really feels like you're doing something that meets them where they are in the moment. And I like to believe that it was reciprocal, that the mentor is well benefited from that relationship. And so it wasn't again, it wasn't uh for me, it didn't feel like this big momentous thing that I had done, but for that employee, um, it was a game changer and incredibly gratifying.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we really we really can make an impact, you know, as leaders. And, you know, the same way that toxic leaders can impact us, you know, positive leaders can really make an impact. Your voice, your voice as letting people know what's happening in an organization, that is an act of leadership. You know, some people I I drive this home in every program I ever do. The leadership is not about having direct reports, leadership is a behavior, and you are being a positive leader by letting people know hey, there's something going on here that I need to let people know. And I am concerned, and it's happening to me, I'm sure it's happening to somebody else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's such a great point. Leader is not necessarily in your title, it is, it's just how you show up every day, right?
SPEAKER_00And that and that impacts people and they don't have to be your direct reports or your employees. So sometimes we might have to break the cycle or break away. And you know, we talked about how this is not rocket science, right? I, you know, the part of the impotence for this podcast came because I used to always say in some of my trainings, someday I'm gonna write a book about leadership and say, leadership, just don't be a jerk, right? So it's really not rocket science, it's just treating people well. So why do we make the link between kindness and productivity so complicated? Like, why is it so complicated for people to make that connection?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, we I think we over-engineer a lot of our people processes. I think people have trouble being kind while holding people accountable. And that's why parenting is so difficult, right? They tell you you don't want to be your kid's friend, right? You're their parent, you play a different role in their life. And so it's hard to discipline your child. Let's tell them it's hard to say, I told you so, and yet you went ahead and made that mistake anyway, right? Despite all the coaching and the feedback and the support that you might give them. And so, and frankly, Stephanie, I think the challenge too is that we haven't done a good job of teaching people how to be good leaders about really equipping them. And so we default to the skills that they came in with, or we hope that they've got good role models. And if they get connected with a bad manager, we do nothing to interfere and intervene there. And so bad behaviors beget more bad behaviors unless you get the rare individual who's willing to stand up and say, Hey, this is not okay. I prefer a different approach and a different path. So, yeah, I think people have a difficult time with kindness and holding people responsible, which is a good bit about leadership.
SPEAKER_00And that's why I always recommend that book, Radical Candor, right? That's how do we actually that radical candor is just caring personally, right? But speaking directly. We can actually be very direct with people, but really from a place of caring personally. And being holding people accountable does not have to include blame or shame. Uh and I always say, you know, if someone makes a mistake, this is sort of one of my other lines, is get curious before you get furious. Right. So it's kind of like we don't know what happened. So if someone made a mistake or someone made an error, it's like, hey, can you help me understand what happened here before you say, what the heck is going on? Like and before you like we don't know. We make these assumptions. Maybe someone got bad information from somebody else. Maybe someone said, Hey, you can try this shortcut. You know, someone can get mistrained by someone and we don't know. And we have to lead with curiosity before we jump to an assumption. And a lot of leaders will just immediately assume something, and especially with so many teams being hybrid or remote, we're not with them. And so we almost like launch into this other assumption. We start having emotions related to that assumption, which is not rooted in truth, and then it launches into this rather toxic exchange, sometimes electronically, right? And that's why it's like, okay, no, you just have to have a conversation. I always tell leaders don't, if you are actually confused, angry, upset, ask for a call because electronic communication will muddle that communication. Whether even if it's like team, a team's message, even if it's instant, it will not go well. So just say that can I talk to you for a Couple of minutes because it gets misinterpreted. All kinds of things happen. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01And chances are, in the instance of a mistake, the employee has probably already recognized that. And most of the time they're beating themselves up more badly than you will need to do. Absolutely. Right.
SPEAKER_00And you and you just have to have that conversation. So you've noted that sometimes, you know, a person may be in a situation where, hey, I've done everything I can. I might need to move on. How do you know when there is a scarcity of courage in an organization and it might be that you have to move on? What are those signs that it's not going to get better? Even if I do stand up, even if I am going to see the courage, I'm going to have organizational courage. I'm going to leverage that power of one. I communicated. How do you know when it's not working and I might need to leave? What's what's those signs?
SPEAKER_01I think that's a really important conversation to have with yourself, to know when you've crossed the threshold, when it's no longer acceptable, manageable, when it's no longer healthy for you. I think sometimes we are so in the fight that we forget why we were there in the first place. And it's good to reflect and say, you know what? If it gets to this, then I'm going to have to make a decision to walk away from the situation. And I know that I have stayed in organizations longer than I should have. I've seen really, really dedicated colleagues wear themselves out, burn themselves out because they didn't know when enough was enough. So it's a really personal choice, but it does need to carry intention. You do have to think about when has the line been crossed? When is the organization no longer a good fit? And that's not a shameful thing. Organizations are organic, so they will change, they will flex, they will ebb and flow. And so it's always good to just kind of check the temperature. Like, is this still comfortable for me? Am I still swimming in a depth where I can survive or thrive? Or am I way out of, you know, am I way out of the zone where I'd like to be comfortable or where I feel respected and valued? So that's a that is that's a conversation that you have to have with yourself because it's personal. Some people can tolerate way more risk, way more stress than others. Um, and again, there's no judgment on where you fall in that spectrum, but know where that line is because it's important.
SPEAKER_00So I think also what I hear you saying is like know what your absolute deal breakers are.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00So know what those deal breakers are. Like I cannot tolerate when it gets to this point. And it's important to also, I always tell people to tell another person what those deal breakers are so they can hold you.
SPEAKER_01If you want it, yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_00Tell somebody really close to you, whether it's a partner or a sibling or a really good friend. Because if you keep that to yourself, because then you'll say, Oh, you'll keep moving the line. That's right. So tell somebody so that they and say, you know what, check in with me next month to see where I'm at, so that they can keep you honest with those with those deal breakers so that you're not making excuses. I, you know, I used to do career coaching for many years. And a lot of my clients were women, and I they would have been, and I would sometimes ask them, and it would be in these really toxic situations, and I would always say, Well, how long have you been putting up with this? And they would say, five years, like six years, like seven years. It's just long periods of time. And the longer you stay in with the boundary crossed, the harder it is to leave.
SPEAKER_01It is like the frog in the boiling water, right? They just turn up the temperature just a little bit and you get acclimated and a little bit more, but eventually, um, the person who suffers will likely be you, not the organization. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And, you know, sometimes people kind of have this fear of they just look at HR and and talent as those people are not on my side, right? So I can't go to them. So, you know, I just I want people to not have that us versus them perspective. And I know in organizations that is real for people. So I don't want to discount that. I've been in organizations where that has not been the case. I've been in organizations where unfortunately that is, right? So I don't want to discount that. Every organization is different, it depends on the size. But as we reflect, you know, we've reflected on that it this is not, again, this is not really that hard. Treating people well does actually drive productivity. Yet, you know, it's really hard to do in practice. And some many, many leaders do get you know promoted because of their technical acumen, their subject matter expertise. Many times they are not necessarily promoted because of their leadership acumen, which is often industry agnostic. It has nothing to do with whatever their knowledge is in that area. And that organizational courage is not some grand thing that you know we have to declare. It may just be that you're the person that's willing to stand up. You may be the HR leader, you may be the leader, you may be the individual contributor, but it's also recognizing when the cost of sort of saying nothing becomes really high. And the longer we say nothing, then that cost becomes even higher. So we've kind of already talked about people need to kind of isolate and understand their deal breakers, communicate that to other people, and to also remember that, you know, we're not really stuck with anything, right? People kind of assume that a job is a sentence, right? That and they live also in fear that there will be no other job. And I just want to remind people that there are other opportunities and that you don't have to live in this world of this is the only job that there is. And so sometimes also toxic leaders will say, You're not gonna find another job. You're not this is the best job. They'll say things to make you stay, right? And so I just want people to just remember those are similar things that like abusers say to, you know, abusive relationships. You have to just remember those are falsehoods, those are manipulative statements, and you have to believe in your own talent and your own ability. And if you need to go to someone that you really trust to remind you of that, go do that too. Any other final thoughts that you want to share with anyone that might be in this toxic leadership situation, someone who might be.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think one of the things that's really helpful to your point about knowing where that line sits is that as you approach it, you emotionally and mentally become actually more and more liberated because you have less and less to lose. Yes. Right? Because you've already committed to the fact that one more push and I have to extricate myself from the situation. And so you actually gain power in a moment that you think it's elusive. And so you get to a point where you know what I'm gonna speak truth to power because I am sitting in my own, in my own power. I have agency to make choices about whether or not this is where I'm going to serve, this is where I'm going to spend my energies. Now, ideally, you get to practice your courage all the way through in really healthy organizations because you're serving, you're using it to serve the organization, you're bringing people along, you're energizing them, you're inspiring them. But it when you're talking about just your individual journey, as you get to that threshold, it can be really freeing to know that you know what? I'm gonna make a mark, I'm gonna make a stand, not for anybody else, but in this moment just for me. And that's hugely empowering.
SPEAKER_00It is, it is. And I particularly want to talk to uh to the women out there that don't have a partner supporting them. So I got married a little bit later in life, and twice I had to leave toxic jobs and toxic leaders. And I didn't have a partner. I was living on my own. I wasn't living with my parents, like I was an adult and I had to take that risk. You know, any anybody, you know, who doesn't have that doesn't have to necessarily be women, it could be anybody, you know, anybody that is doesn't have a partner or is living with someone or living with their parents that feels like I can't leave this job because I don't have another person to help me. And so that fear is what's stopping them. I want to tell you, I've done that twice and I was absolutely terrified. But both times that I did it, what opened up was so much more opportunity. And I just, you know, you're that's why your networking and your relationship building is so important. Never stop networking, never stop relationship building. Now I am an extrovert and I I know that for some people it can be very challenging and scary, but it's so important to keep relationship building, even when you have a job, because you never know when that toxic jerk becomes your boss and you all of a sudden have to get out. So keep relationship building, keep going to events, keep your, you know, your network up because you just don't know when you need it. And when you don't have that sort of safety net and you have to make that move, you need to rely on those relationships.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and personally, it's really enriching to have people in your life will support you, not just professionally.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. So great. So, Angela, is there anything uh that you want to share about where people can find you or your website or anything you want to share?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm the only Angela Chang Semini on LinkedIn. And so if you'd like to connect, just let me know that you heard me riff with Stephanie Lakata on her podcast, and I'll be happy to accept.
SPEAKER_00Awesome, excellent. And I will put that all in our show notes as well. I put everyone's links in our show notes so everybody can find you. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been so rewarding, and I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you for suggesting this concept of organizational courage. Uh, I really appreciate you inspiring the whole concept for this episode. It really was great. Uh, thank you for your partnership. Thank you all for listening to No Jerks Aloud. And go be the one person who speaks up today. If you take nothing away from this conversation, I hope you have gained some organizational courage. So thank you so much. Thank you, Stephanie. Okay, bye, everyone. All right.
