Bonus Episode: Murder At The Gates

Most fans of dark, theatrical storytelling are about to get their new obsession. Steven Seder and James Bourne’s concept album Murder at the Gates drops a cinematic, mystery-filled universe in just 30 minutes — and our hosts are breaking it all down, song by song, with theories that could make or break the plot.
In this bonus episode, you’ll discover how this haunting musical combines Panic at the Disco’s edgy vibes with the gothic grandeur of Phantom of the Opera. Amber and Becky reveal their first impressions of the complex characters, the symbolic lyrics, and the clues hiding in every note. From the eerie title track to Milo Mannheim’s star turn as Ethan, each song offers a puzzle piece—and some dark secrets.
You’ll learn how the album’s dense metaphors point to betrayal, grief, and murder — but the biggest mystery lies in what’s real and what’s a lie. Amber interprets the songs as a window into Cameron’s inner darkness and her possibly deadly obsession with her mother’s secrets, while Becky sees a scandalous web of motives woven into every character. Is Cameron’s mother alive or dead? Did Ethan cheat, or is he innocent? Who’s the ninth character hiding in the shadows? We dive into the symbolism, the character dynamics, and the clues that make this a thrilling puzzle for the most dedicated fangirls.
Perfect for musical theater lovers, mystery addicts, or anyone craving a new narrative to obsess over. If you thought one album couldn’t contain this much intrigue, think again — this is storytelling at its theatrical best. Join us as we interpret each twist, speculate wildly, and get ready for what’s next — because Murder at the Gates isn’t just an album, it’s a murder mystery waiting to be solved.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Well, hello everybody. We have a very special bonus episode for you. Um, because as you know, as we've established, when something super duper crazy exciting happens, we must take to the mics and talk about it. And this particular thing that we're talking about this evening is so exciting on so many levels. Tonight we are going to talk about a brand new concept album that has dropped called Murder at the Gates. And you might say, what in the world is that? And why are the fangirls of a certain age so excited about it? Well, I'm gonna let uh a little birdie tell you the rest, because I'm not here by myself. Tweet, tweet, y'all, it's me.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Like I actually heard birds in the background.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

They're paid actors. So if you heard our last episode where we kind of expanded on our fangirl 50 uh seconds that we normally do into fangirl, well, 50 plus, if you will. Um if you haven't listened to that episode, go back. It's a really fun one. Uh we talked a little tiny bit about murder at the gates and uh because it was still yet to come. It basically is a piece of art, number one, but it is a it's a piece of entertainment that speaks directly to both Amber and I. Um it speaks directly to Amber in some ways, it speaks directly to me in some ways, and then it speaks to the both of us uh in a big giant way. Um, so there was no way we were gonna not do an episode on the whole thing. And I think you're gonna like the journey we're gonna take you on. So, Amber, why don't you tell the people?

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Murder at the Gates, as Becky said, is an all-new concept album that's been put out by very, very infamous, very lovely, very talented uh Steven Seder as well as James Bourne. James Bourne. This dropped last week, and so we have taken a good solid week to listen to it, to really soak it up, and to gather our thoughts and theories and things of that nature. Because Murder at the Gates, first and foremost, is a musical. So that is gonna speak to Becky. And more than that, Murder at the Gates is a murder mystery, which speaks to me. And so throwing these two things together, we are already on board, and not to mention that it is an all-star cast. There's many amazing people, and we will go through that lineup shortly. But the Oh yes, we will. There's one person in particular that caught our attention very early on, and that is, of course, one Milo Mannheim, uh, who is one of the leads in this uh in this show. And so we're gonna go into more detail about the cast and uh their characters in just a moment, but I do want to take this second to kind of explain uh our history with Murder at the Gates. Uh Becky was on TikTok and she was watching one of Steven Seder's lives, and Steven Seder goes live all the time on TikTok. He's just he's very personable, uh, he has a great relationship with his fans. If you've never caught a live that Steven Seder does, I highly recommend sitting in and watching it because it's really a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

As a reminder, he uh is a lyricist, and most people would know him as responsible for Spring Awakening.

SPEAKER_03 3:53

That's right, that's right. That's his uh masterpiece. Um, but Steven Seder had done a live back in December that Becky was watching, and he had also posted a TikTok uh with him and Milo Manheim, and so there was these little breadcrumbs he was leaving that there was a project to come that was featuring Milo Mannheim. Stop the presses, like we need to know what's going on. But this new project, Murder at the Gates, this concept album features Milo Manheim quite heavily. So we were very interested to hear what this had to offer and what the style was like. It was described by Steven Seder and um James Bourne as a mix of Panic at the Disco meets Phantom of the Opera. And I would say I think that's a pretty apt description. Um, it is a fantastic album, just banger after banger. And the more I listen to it, it is truly poetry. It is only 30 minutes though. And when you go to a show and you're going for a two-hour show and you're only getting 30 minutes of the story, there's gonna be a lot of guessing and a lot of trying to read between the lines. And so that is what this episode is gonna be all about. Becky and I are gonna break down the album one song at a time, and we are each gonna share our thoughts and our theories. And to be on it, we have ideas of where the other one sits and where the other one sees this song, but we don't really know in depth of what each other is thinking. So we may get it right. We may be completely off base. This is really just for fun for us and uh interpreting the album in our own brains. And so I think this could be really fun. Did you have anything you want to add before I go into the uh the plot of Murder at the Gates?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

I've said it before. This is sort of uh my wheelhouse. Obviously, I've loved Broadway since I was young, and we know that I'm of a certain age, so that's been a long time. Uh, and this is how I was introduced to Broadway and the way that I uh interacted with Broadway probably until my adulthood, just being 16, 17 years old in my bedroom with a CD. Look it up, kiddos, if you don't know what that is anymore. But um, you know, with a CD and just playing the songs and trying to piece together what the story was. So I think I've got some uh some practice in this area. So uh, you know, I'm confident in my uh skills here, but I also know that like I've been wrong many a time. Many a time.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Sure. And and again, just to really bring this home, this is all conjecture. Like, we are just guessing, and based off of how we're hearing the songs, we have no clue how close we are or if we even are close. So it's just for funsies, really. Um, but I will say a lot of this stuff has been particularly tricky to decipher because Steven Seder, as a lyricist, you've always described him as being very dense with his words. And the first couple rounds I listened to this, I was like, I don't think he's dense with his words. There's a actually a lot of like repetition and it's easy to pick up. But then the more I was looking at like how the words and how the the the phrases are like strung together, it is very dense, and sometimes it's hard to decipher because it's a lot of metaphors or like hidden meanings and symbolism, and how I really caught a lot of that um after listening to this album about 4,000 times. So uh so I it's I think it'll be really fun to break down.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Steven did not start as a lyricist, uh, he started as a poet uh in his life. So uh that's very evident. Once you hear that and then you hear his music, you're like, oh well, yeah. It makes it a lot more. Of course. Of course. Um so if you want to play along, by the way, stop us right now. Go over to your Apples, your Spotify's, wherever you listen to uh your music, and listen to a quick 32-minute album. Um, and then you can come back and play along with us and see if you think what we're saying is good or not, or you have something new that you're gonna want to tell us about. All ideas are welcome. We like to process out loud here at Fangirls of a Certain Age.

SPEAKER_03 8:06

If you go to YouTube, you can listen to it there as well in two forms. As of today, they dropped an instrumental version of the entire album. So if you're someone that's like, I want to sing along, I want to do karaoke, guess what? You can. Because in addition to that, there is also lyric videos. This was a game changer for me. Uh-huh. Cheater cheater over here because I did not see that yet. Yeah. There's lyric videos, and that was a big of every song for me. Of every song. Oh, God bless. I'm gonna have to go ski dash over there after this. Yeah, so that that was kind of a game changer for me. Um, it helped, in my opinion, I think, I'm hoping, I think it gave me a couple of clues that I definitely have missed on all of the previous listens. So I'm very excited to share that. So Spotify, Apple, YouTube, all options, but just keep in mind that that feature on Apple Music with the lyrics is not available for this album. So if you need the lyrics, YouTube has them on individual videos.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Okay, perfect. Again, this is a concept album for a musical yet to be made. Steven Seder and James Bourne, uh, the folks who are in charge of the music and lyrics for this, uh, have already written the show. So there is a story. We don't know it, but there is a story, and of course, they are hoping to get it out to the world. So hopefully on Broadway, possibly in another version of life, whether it's a movie or a TV show or something like that. Which by the way, I want to see this on stage, period. Exclamation point, but I do think this would make an incredible, an incredible episodic television show. I think this would.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yeah, I think so. Like a like a series on Netflix or something. Totally. I totally agree with that. Besides the point, uh, take it away, my dear. Tell everybody about murder. All right. So, murder at the gates. This is the plot, uh, as written in the Playbill uh publication online. Uh, so murder at the gates is Clue Meets Clueless, a black comic murder mystery from Gen Z Gated Community America. A teen girl's birthday party goes from fun to frightful after a murder mystery game is interrupted by an actual murder, locking down the security system. No one can get in and no one can get out, as one by one the party guests are sorted into killer and victim. Solve the mystery, save your friends. Already I'm on board. I will start by saying this. The description of Clue Meets Clueless, I think is a very simple description. And I think by using clue, that really kind of helps to set how everything is laid out. So I'm gonna say at the top because I'm probably gonna reference that throughout the breakdown here. I do want to go over the cast of characters. There are eight characters that are in this show. So first up, we have Cameron. She's played by Issa Briones, and she is described as our melancholy young heiress, currently grieving the loss of her mom, still spunky with a dark biting wit, in mourning for her life. Next, we have Ethan, played by Milo Manheim. He is Cameron's ex-boyfriend, the self-romanticizing poet rebel, brooding, charismatic, irresistible. I want to asterisk this description that it says poet. We will talk about that later. Okay? She's off to the racist people. Aha, I'm telling you, I am ready. I'm ready. Next up, we have Demetrius, played by Mason Alexander Park. Demetrius is Cameron's ballsy, brassy, backstabbing childhood best friend. Then we have Graham, played by Gain Madarazzo, a conservative gun-toting friend of Cameron's, hopelessly crushing on her, forever in and out of rehab. Then we have Suze, played by Joy Woods. Suze is Cameron's stunning BFF and sworn rival, seemingly clueless, but with a cunning aim, she knows just what she's doing. Ned is played by Casey Likes. He is the ultra-wealthy and sought-after stud muffin Cameron's dad invited to help her get over her breakup. I love the stud muffin. I love that surname. Then we have Audrey. Uh Audrey is Cameron's dramatic put-upon friend, the daughter of her longtime housekeeper. Not so secretly in love with her. And last but not least, we have Harrison. Harrison is Cameron's rugged, entitled dad. Finally kicking back after his ruthless capitalist years, has been sleeping with the housekeeper years before the death of his wife. So just based off of that list of characters, we've already got a lot of tension. You've got an ex, you've got a backstabbing ex-friend, you've got a best friend that you're in competition with, you have some sort of addict who is in love with you, you have your cheating father, the mistress's daughter, like it's there's a lot of motive already put in place, in my opinion. We're putting it all out there.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yes, uh, motive is, you know, the word of the day. The secret word is motive. Um, because yes, and I think obviously when you read those character descriptions, you do get a quick feel for what is going on at this party to come. But I also think as we get uh further and further down, you'll see that not everybody is what they seem. And some people are exactly what they seem.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Um I will also notate that there are eight characters, and those are the only eight that we have been made aware of. However, if you download the album, there is a uh graphic. It's a birthday cake, and on top of the birthday cake are candles, but if you look carefully, the candles are actually silhouettes of people, and there are nine candles. So we believe that there is a ninth character that we are not aware of. Now we don't know if this is like a third act twist ninth character, we don't know if this is somebody that doesn't really matter and they get killed off early, so that's why we don't know who they are. We don't know, but we do highly suspect that there is a ninth character that is part of this story.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

That is on escape rooms, because that is uh your world. You you definitely catch the details really quickly. I do, I do. Alright, y'all. Now, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

What's first? First up, our very first song is our opening song that's called Something That's Shore. This is performed by Cameron, who is played by Issa Briones. Becky, can you give us a little rundown on Isa Briones?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

Yeah, throughout this, as we get uh through the characters and through the songs, I'll go ahead and tell you who these folks are that are singing these songs because, as mentioned, uh this is a concept album, and it literally is going to be hopefully proof of concept. Amber's heard me say this more times than she cares to listen to. I'm fascinated by the marketing of all of this because they said, you know what? Let's just get every amazing Broadway person onto this one album to show people that it could be the most cool and amazing show. So this is stacked with Broadway uh icons. Um so yeah, Issa Brionis is uh our main person, Cameron, as mentioned. She's currently starring in the pit, so not much singing going on in the emergency room, but uh you will have seen her on stage in Just in Time, which is a six degrees of separation for Steven, as uh he worked with Jonathan Graf on Spring Awakening, and Jonathan Graff originated the Just in Time role of Bobby Darren. Uh so she got herself a great little career on Broadway and now uh and you know, TV too.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I had never heard of Issa Briones. She's a goddess. Her voice does something to me. She's so beautiful. I uh all of it. Beautiful package is there. Yeah, full package, Miss Uh Briones.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Full package is right. Okay, so uh our first song, as you mentioned, something that's sure. What do you got on this one?

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Well, so something that's sure is, of course, our our opening number, and I think it sets the tone very well. It's either an upright bass or a cello. Like you know that this is kind of a darker vibe that we're going for. There's thunder going, and this is an ominous beginning. Just off of the first listens from what's being put out there, it's just an intensity to how she's singing these lyrics. I will mention a couple things that I noticed. There's a lot of uh repetition in this song, um, a lot of repeat words, and uh I just want to bring a couple of those words to the forefront because I noticed that they make uh appearances throughout the entire album. One is nothing. Later, we're going to learn what the meaning of nothing is. But in this particular song, her lyric is uh why rub her nose in the nothing if nothing comes of nothing and you're bored, uh, and then finally buried in robes of nothing. So this word is definitely something, which I will go into detail about later. But what I get mostly from this song is that it seems to me that Cameron is fighting demons, that she has a darkness inside of her that she doesn't really want to acknowledge just yet. She wants to keep it buried, and she's a little afraid of that, and she is recognizing that the people in her life are not the greatest, and will they pull that darkness out of her? I feel like she's worried about that while she's grieving over her mother. Another word that it comes up a lot is dreams. So dream, dreaming, and dreams comes up a lot in this album, and I do think that that's a symbol as well. Um in this song, No Walking Out of the Dream. To me, I interpret that as whatever she's fighting, she's having a very hard time snapping out of it. She feels trapped and suffocated in whatever she's feeling. That's what I get from this first song is this fight, this inner fight that she's having while setting the tone for the show. Well about you, Beck.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

We sort of take this a little more surface, um, not so deep, and I'm intentionally saying surface because I think that for me, that is what this song is trying to say is we're gonna set you up that this girl is your tropey spoiled brat heiress is the word they use, rich person that you're like, oh, so sorry that you have these first world problems. I just get the feeling personally, and again, just a vibe, not necessarily as to looking at the lyrics, that we're not gonna necessarily um decide right here whether she's a sympathetic character or not, right? Because we're just like, meh, you know, here's a spoiled brat going to a party. Great. You know, why are we going to care what's gonna go down? So again, I don't think there's as much in this song as there is in others. But it's a great first song, as mentioned. The vibe is like right there. I mean, within the first what, like eight bars. Got it, got what's going on here. That we are gonna go dark, we are gonna go ominous, uh, an era of foreboding. How about that? Um, you know, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

There's definitely a layer of intensity with this song in how she sings it and the plucking of the strings uh is very precise as well. Uh while I agree that it definitely sets the tone, I think that there's a lot of hidden things in here that once you listen to the album as a whole and it kind of like cycles back, you pick up on it more.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I'll say that too. Now, I have three favorite songs on this album, and I have one song in particular. It is my favorite, so so deeply madly, truly. I listen to it on repeat. I think we've said this before, I like to sing, I sing along to it. Uh, and that is our next song, which is called The Mirror Size, and Size is S-I-G-H-S. Like, size, not S-I-Z-E. I can't even discuss this song because it just gets me twitter pated because it's so romantic, but yet it's like so dark and it's so hauntingly beautiful. Who sings it? Oh, I'm not sure. Who is it? Oh, um I- Oh, can you remind me?

SPEAKER_03 20:50

I think Can you remind me? I think it's Milo Manheim and Issa Brionis. I think you're right!

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Um through the credits of Milo Manheim? Yes, I'd love for you to go through the credits of Milo Manheim.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Everybody in their car on their treadmill in the airplane is like, ladies, if you say one more time Milo Manheim's credits, I'm turning this off. Alright. He was in zombies in Little Shop of Horrors, okay? I don't care. We will not give you his credits, we'll give you his future. About to be Flynn Ryder. There you go. How about that? It is Milo Manheim, it is Issa Brionis, and again, this is my favorite song on the album. I know every word, I sing every word. It is so romantic, it is so heartbreakingly, hauntingly beautiful. There's such a melancholy to it, and yet you feel this romance of it as well. Like it is wrapped in all of these things, in both lyrics and in music. It is just so well done in that way. And I think we find out a lot about both Ethan and Cameron in it. Do you want me to? Go first on this one? Yeah, go for it. I like that face. I think that you're gonna disagree. You're gonna disagree with me, which is fine. I don't think I'm gonna disagree with you. I think we might be lined up on this one. So, what we get from this particular song, at least as far as Amber and I are concerned, you're fangirls of a certain age. Ethan still loves Cameron. Ethan is truly, madly, deeply in love with Cameron. And unfortunately, he has made a mistake. We don't know what that mistake is. He doesn't come out and tell us. Again, uh, this is a 32-minute album, and most shows are round about two hours. So there's a whole lot we're missing. So I'm sure at some point the actual words will spill out as to what he actually has done from the music. We can kind of theory through it. But um, so he's made a mistake. He's so upset. As you will hear if you've listened, uh, we start with Ethan singing and then uh Cameron comes in on the bridge. So both of them singing tells me that they both still love each other. So I get from the music that they are both still in love with each other. Um, there's some lyrics to me that um point me in that direction. They are both singing the lyric. This is just some kind of joke, this whole thing. You'll come and find me and you'll hold me and you'll remind me. So saying basically, we didn't want it this way, but whatever mistake was made, it was just it's done. No coming back from it. Yes, thank you. Again, but how does thinking ever end, or is that when the thinker's in the ground? So, you know, Ethan is like, I'm gonna keep going over and over this, but I don't think it's gonna end until the day I die, I'm gonna keep regretting this thing that I did. And that he's spiraling and playing every angle of all the possible outcomes, and it's relentless to him. One of those Broadway tropes that I really like, where in two people are singing the same song, but they're coming from their own point of view, but yet it makes sense as it comes together because there is a conversation as well going on in this song between the two of them. They do come together and sing in a duet format. Um, and then there's some things that she says and some things that he says, etc. Um, so that is what I get from this song, this gorgeous song that I love. Yes, ma'am.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

What say you? Alright, I love this song as well. I have three favorites. This is my third favorite, actually. Spoiler alert, my three favorite songs are Milo's. They're all just different enough and bring different vibes. So this is my third favorite song. I am half with you, Becky. I'm half with you on this one. Okay. So I think that yes, this song is about grief, 100%, and remorse and regret. But here's how I am picturing this scene on stage. I am picturing a vanity, okay? And there's a mirror on the vanity. And Ethan is on one side of the mirror, and Cameron is on the other side of the mirror. And so Ethan is singing about how much he regrets what has happened between the two of them. He is so in love with her, he misses her, he wishes he could fix it, but it they can't come back from it. All of that you said, I 100% agree with you about that from Ethan's perspective. I also like the Broadway trope of two characters singing the same song from their own perspectives. And I also agree that that's exactly what's happening. I think that Cameron is not singing about Ethan. I don't think that Cameron is singing about their relationship at all. I think she's singing about her mother. And that lyric, it's just some kind of joke, this hoping you'll come and find me and you'll hold me and remind me that my thoughts are mine but not the way they go, can mean two different things to two different people. He's saying, Oh God, I hope that we can find each other again. She's saying, I wish you were here. I wish you were here to help me get through this. I wish you were here to hold me and help me feel better. And the reason that I think that she's talking to her mother is because after that line ends, Cameron has more to that lyric. Because it says, You'll hold me and remind me that my thoughts are mine but not the way they go. They both sing together. And then she says, I don't want to go where they're going. What do you mean, Cameron? Because of those dark thoughts that she mentions in the first song. She has something inside of her that she's like, I want to react to this. Something is inside of me. I don't want to give that attention because I don't want to go where they're going. I don't want to go down that path. She knows something that we don't know yet, and something is eating at her. Even he says, It's not with me now in those empty eyes and the mirror size. He's referring to his own reflection. He's saying his eyes are empty. Later, Cameron says, I'm not in me now, or those empty eyes. Cameron doesn't even recognize herself in her reflection. So that's my take is I think that they are both singing about remorse and grief, but I think they're singing about completely different things. And also there's a lot of mentions of shadows. And shadows I think are symbolic to two sides of the same coin. That comes up a lot too. Okay. Read the line again. What is it? Proceeds. You'll hold me and remind me that my thoughts are mine, but not the way they go. And then she says, I don't want to go where they're going.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Right. And I think that could also mean I don't want to go where they're going, meaning I don't want to go down this path of saying, I hope we find each other again, and you hold me and we remind you because you just cut me to the quick and you betrayed me so deeply. Okay. Okay.

unknown 27:43

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

So anyway, love that song. The next one is gonna be fun because I think Amber and I may have a bit of a different take on this one. I cracked the code on this one, I think, but go on. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I really favorite song on the album. It's my first. And I have said this to Amber before. I am belting this out in the car as if it's my job at this point. It's so good. It's so good. That panic at the disco mention that Steven gave. Panic at the disco meets Phantom of the Opera. If Phantom of the Opera was the mirror size, here comes, here comes.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Panic at the disco with fine rigor mortis. And Ethan, played by Milo Manheim, and now we're meeting Demetrius, played by Mason Alexander Park. Where do we know Mason Alexander Park from, Becky?

SPEAKER_00 28:37

So Mason Alexander Park has been in quite a few things themselves, but they have also shared the stage with Milo in American Idiot with the Deaf West Company, which is kind of exciting for them to reunite. And I say that intentionally. So why don't you explain yours first, since I went first the last time. I can't wait to hear this.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

It's gotta be one of the hardest ones to crack open. I know what rigamortis means, but I looked it up to get the literal definition to help me understand what the metaphor is here. Because it is a banger of a song, and I know that there is a lot of plot buried in this song, but you do have to untangle the metaphor to catch it. It is, to my understanding, this is what I get from this, that this is the song that tells us what Ethan did. And we are both on the same page on that. That uh we agree that Ethan cheated on Cameron with Demetrius because Demetrius is defined as the childhood best friend that stabbed her in the back, and the song kind of lends to that. Based off of the lyrics, it seems like this is a song about two people who are either in denial or are uncomfortable around each other. And that's why I think the words fine rig and mortis are used, because it's saying, This is stiff, this is silent, this is unmoving, we're lying like corpses, we're silent as corpses. And the reason that I do think that this is used that way is because I'm getting the feeling that Ethan is in denial, that this meant nothing. That whatever happened between him and Demetrius, it was maybe like, oh, I was just experimenting. It didn't mean anything to me. Like I wasn't even there, as far as I remember. So to me, Ethan is in denial about it. Is this it or only another scene I'm sleeping through? Like, oh, I slept through it. Like it literally meant nothing to me. Like, truly. Uh, call it quits or only keep rotting as we do. Yikes. Imagine having a one-night stand with somebody, and then the next day they're like saying this to you. Regardless of whether or not Ethan actually feels that way, because we don't know if he does or not, but that's some heavy stuff to say to your one night stand, which might give that one night stand some motive. Um, the other thing is Ethan's part sounds like he's in denial. Demetrius is telling him that he's in denial. You held me down on the bed, you bred me with your fear, which I think is a great line. Where he's like, I had a great time. I could tell that you were scared, but you were enjoying it because you smiled and you said, No one ever felt like me, no one never held a girl so sweet. So Demetrius is like, You're full of shit. You clearly had a good time. And Ethan is like, No, I didn't. I was completely stiff and unmoving. We were just lying there like corpses, as far as I'm concerned. So that's what I get from all of this. What's your take?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I respect your take, and mine is different. Um agreed. Ethan cheated with Demetrius. Finger quotes. Because I think it didn't happen. I think Ethan and Demetrius at some other party, some other time, got super drunk or super high, and then can't remember what happened, and woke up sort of in a bed together. Who knows in what state, but woke up together. And for me, this song is a conversation between Ethan and Demetrius. And it's Ethan saying in the beginning, he's questioning it. Did we kiss or only pretend we wanted to? Is this it? Or only another scene I'm sleeping through? Again, your dream and imagery, by the way. But uh, I think he's trying to sort out did we actually do this? And I think personally that since we know that Demetrius is backstabbing, and I think they are messy and they wanted to create a mess. And they went along with this whole thing. I think there's plot holes for both of them in the evening. Sure. And I think they are going along with this whole thing because A, it makes them look fun, B, it you know, gets back at Cameron for whatever the reason. And I think they just like the sport of mess, truly. And so I think this whole deep, huge betrayal is ultimately a misunderstanding, and it never really happened. And I have receipts down the road. Okay, okay. And so I think this is a conversation between the two of them, and Ethan is saying, Did we do this? And Demetrius is like, Yup, sure did, and it was awesome, and you liked it when they're singing the fine rigamortis um stuff and like that together. I think there's a possibility that there's a flashback going on of the night, and we're trying to put it together. I don't know. That would be a more of a screen type of thing that they could do better, obviously. I have no doubt someone could figure it out, but a real feat in creativity and innovation to try to get that. But I do think that when they're singing together, it is flashing back to that night and themselves and us trying to piece what actually happened together.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Okay. Yeah, I will definitely agree that I think that Demetrius is a dramatic theatrical character, that they don't really take the world seriously, that it is sport. I like that you said that. I do think that, especially on the song that comes later, that it is all about sport for them. Alright, I think it was kind of lined up.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

We had a couple of things that were a little off, but overall, yeah, I think we're I think we mentioned this, but my last uh note of this song is vocals in all caps, because again, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

I and yes, that's true. Milo and uh Mason, their voices together are so beautiful. I just love uh it's it and it is very panic at the disco, especially when the two of them are together. Alright. Next up is, in my opinion, the most straightforward song. Uh, this is Love, Cream, and Sugar. This is sung by Suze, played by Joy Woods.

SPEAKER_00 34:50

For anybody who doesn't know who Joy Woods is, she just uh finished up uh with uh Audrey McDonald in Gypsy. We all know how much I love that one if you've listened to anything before. Uh and uh she also was in Little Shop as well. Well, go ahead. What is Love Cream and Sugar about?

SPEAKER_03 35:07

So this one I have to give Becky full credit for. This went right over my head for a very long time. I think I did not do this until a few days ago. I was like, I don't know, I guess Suze is kind of naive and she just looks at the world like, oh yeah, the world is tough, but you know, love and blah blah blah. And Becky goes, She's sleeping with the dad. And then I was like, Oh, I was not paying attention. And it's they're very clear lyrics, they're very straightforward. You listen to the first verse and you're like, oh, she's sleeping with the dad. Okay, great. Like it's very clear. Um, so I don't have a lot to say. This is actually probably my least favorite song on the album, which sucks because I really like Joy Woods. I think she has a beautiful voice, but this one is kind of straightforward, and I I like more of the macabre emo sounds from the other songs, and this one is a little different. This one does have like an air of naivety a little bit, where she definitely sees herself on a much higher pedestal than maybe reality is suggesting. She's definitely sleeping with Cameron's dad. The thing that I get from this song, and it comes back again, is that status is very important to Suze. Uh, she's all about money. One of the lines is uh I prefer my sex with Amex. Um and you know, yeah, it's a great, it's a great life. Good for you. So she's all about money and status, and that's very important to her. And I think that that's important to discern because again, in the description of Cameron, she is referred to as an heiress. And without a mother and without a wife, Cameron would be next in line to inherit. But if there's a wife or a woman involved with the husband or the father, that could also come into play. So I think that is part of what Suze is doing as well. Um, is that she's trying to secure that spot as the heiress in some way. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

She also references boredom, and so does Cameron. And I think that's interesting too. There's a line that says, uh, not like I'm bored better than Superfly who can't drive and is poor. So I think there's something to that later on down the road. So let's go to the next song, shall we? And if you haven't listened to that song, you'll find out very quickly the line that she says cements that she it's very clear.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

And again, I'm just so embarrassed that I did not pick up on it. Oh, don't be embarrassed. Of course not. In my defense, I didn't know Harrison was the father. I didn't know there was a father because I didn't read the character descriptions because I like to go in cold. So I just went in and was like listening to it, so I was a little confused. But then once I figured out the characters and Becky said that, I was like, ah, okay, got it, heard. So, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Next we have Cameron the Lonely. So Cameron the Lonely is again Isabrionis as Cameron, and it is her own song. Um, I've said this to Amber a bunch. Uh I'm fairly certain that this is the song that takes us out of the first act and into the intermission. I think this is the song that kind of wraps up what's going on in the first act and takes us into the second. Um, and I have a big theory on this. And so this is the I Want song. It's a very tropey thing for Broadway. Uh, musicals in general, right? Your heroine or your hero is gonna sing about what they want, why they're so much more than what they appear to be, what they've overcome. But you get a very clear picture of who they are, what they want, what they're going through, and how they're gonna get their PS in Act 2. And that is pretty much what this song is doing. There's definitely some lyrics that are gonna give us some clues, lots and lots of talking about mom in this one, and how much she misses mom and how much she wants to make mom proud ultimately uh with the decision she's making and the things that she's gonna even do later on down the road with her life, etc. And then I have something before the act is over, but you tell me about the song first.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

What you Okay, so at this point, I have a question for you. This song is about to be sung, okay? Has anybody died yet? Do you think?

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Yes, I think one person has died. I think act one, one person dies to kick this all off because otherwise we wouldn't be stuck because that's what they tell us literally that every you know the security system goes down. Um, but I don't think anybody else dies in the first act, and then I think it is a bloodbath in act two. Okay. I was just curious what your thoughts were on that.

SPEAKER_03 39:30

So I agree with all of what you said. This is an I want song, this is a grief song. She's singing to her mother, but there are a couple lines in here that I don't get I'm gonna make you proud. I get I'm gonna seek revenge. That's what I get from this song. So she says, she starts, I got it all wrong. I got it all wrong. What was she wrong about? What did she find out? I think something happened. I think something revealed itself, something came to fruition, and she was like, shit, I didn't know that. She said, I know you grieve tonight. She's singing to her mother, I know you grieve tonight. Why? What did you find out that like maybe your mom didn't know and now you think she does know, like in an ethereal kind of way? The housekeeper. Right, could be yes. Cross my soul, I won't let them walk on your broken heart is a declaration. I won't let you rot in some lonesome dark. She's she's pissed. She's like, No, I'm coming for you. Something happened. Yeah, I see that. I won't let my life keep us long apart. Again, she is tapping into that darkness. That line is saying, if I have to die so that we can be together soon, so be it. Like, I don't care. She is tapping into that darkness. What do you always say? Scorched earth. She's going scorched earth for her mom. Like, like, did she know that her father was cheating on her? Or is it something more nefarious than that? How did the mom die? We don't really know how the mom died. Like, does anybody know? Was it an accident? Was it a sickness? Like, we don't know. So, what was revealed that made this linchpin turn for Cameron? So, I do agree that it is an I want song, but I think it's a dark I want song and that I want revenge.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Okay. And I think that we sing the last bit and mom appears at the end. She's alive. And then we fade to block for intermission.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

So you think mom is the ninth. I think mom is alive. Okay. I think mom is alive. And I have some receipts down the road in act two for that.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

Alright. Heard. See, this is interesting. Because as we're heading into our, you know, supposed act two, you think mom is alive. I think mom is dead as hell. This is great. Oh, this is great. I love it. All right. Next song.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

It's so fun. And the worst part about all of this though is that we won't know until this. We won't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Stephen Seder, if you're listening, can you please just give us some grace? If you're like, God, they are so off. They are so off. If you could just send us the script, we know what an NDA is. Yeah. We're happy to sign it. We would just love the whole thing. Just throwing it out there. Just putting it out into the universe for you, Steven. Whatever you think is right, we would love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

And also, Steven, Stephen, um, we're gonna choose to believe that you listen to our podcast all the time. But if for some reason you don't, one thing that you will get to know about us is we want merch. We need Murder at the Gates merch immediately. Immediately. If you want us to be a walking billboard, that's happening. We will.

SPEAKER_03 42:45

All I ask, like the first piece of merchandise that I would like, I would like a black baseball cap that says fucking gorgeous in the red Murder at the Gates font. Okay. Back to our regularly scheduled program. Now, according to us, in our fantasy world that we've created for this show, we have returned from intermission. And I think that this next song is the perfect opening. 1000%. This is the kind of song that opens Act Two. Yep. This is that song. And that is called Our Country Bleeds. And this is sung by Graham and Ned. And that is played by Gaiton Madurazzo and Casey Likes.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

And as a quick reminder, we will put this up front. This is the only song that Ned appears on. And that's an important piece of information. Yeah. For both of us. Alright. Do you want me to go first? Sure. So, first and foremost, under the first note that I had after listening to this song was Nope with a period. I'm not a fan of this song at all. Um, and I'm not a fan of this song because I don't really care for the content at all. Right. Um But what I will say is this is a classic Becky move in the canon of my life, which is to say, this is the song I wouldn't like in my bedroom, and I would actually see it finally on stage and be like, that was fun. Oh my god, I would have never guessed. Whatever. So I am fully aware that once this comes out, I might really enjoy this scene and/or song. So we're coming back from Intermission as mentioned. I don't think we're in the same setting. You know, the curtains come and we are not in the same place. We are not at this murder house anymore. In the character description, it says Graham is always at rehab, so this is where we are. And this is how we meet Ned. Um, and I think that this is a flashback of them talking about things and meeting up in rehab, and they happen to obviously have similar personalities and likes and whatnot. There's a lot of uh talk about cameras, and my girl Amber pointed this out to me the last time, and I had not caught it. So I think they planted cameras at this house. Whenever back, months, years, I don't know. But they have planted cameras at the house because Graham's is both obsessed with Cameron and taking down this rich group of shenanigans and tomfoolery people, right? Because he's not into it. That's my opinion. And so he is obsessed with Cameron, he's got cameras put up there, and so he is watching all of this stuff at the party going down because he has planted these cameras before, and that is gonna come back for us later. What say you, friend?

SPEAKER_03 45:25

I think this song is a red flag. From a musical standpoint, it is a completely, completely different sound than every other song. It doesn't fit at all. And I think that Graham is a not a good dude. I think that there's something up with Graham specifically, and Ned I think might just be kind of like his accomplice or his buddy or whatever. I do think that there is a connection between Graham, Ned, and the dad because the dad is uh he's over his capitalist days, as according to the description. And because of the way that Graham feels about the government and the rich and the poor and all of that, is Graham a fan of the father or is Graham not a fan of the father? And with the dad bringing in Ned to get Cameron to get her mind off of the X, I think there's something going on between the three of them. Like there's just some sort of plot or story. I don't know what that is. I just think there's some sort of connection. Um, but I do want to say this. Every single song on this album is tangled in metaphor and imagery and symbolism. And a lot of the songs are about people wearing masks, people hiding themselves. There's a lot of that. This song is not like that at all. There's no shroud. All the other songs are about death and grief and darkness. This one, they are proud of what they're saying. They are unapologetic about what they're saying, uh, and they don't speak in metaphors. Um, there's mention of gated, there's mention of cameras, and I don't know that I think that they're at rehab, but I do believe they are not at the house. I think that they are outside the gates. There's mention in the description that the people inside can't get out and the people outside can't get in. So that to me implies that somebody's outside. So I think it's Graham and Ned. Uh, that the whole house locked down before they could get there. And so they're trying to figure out how to get in. That's why they're singing about all this, because they're going into this like ritzy-gated neighborhood, and they're like, oh God, this is this and that is that. And that's kind of where the subject matter of the song comes from is ritzy-gated community that they're trying to get into. Also, one of the best lines is don't knock gilded cages when this world is such a zoo. That is so beautiful, beautiful songwriting. I absolutely love that. Um, but I do think that we get we get the motive here at the very end because the entire song is about our country bleeds because of all these things that the government is allowing to happen, and our country is bleeding, is being gouged for that. Oh no, that's terrible. But the last line they say is let's not be the ones the country bleeds. So they're saying, we will not be the victims. The country's not gonna bleed us. That's not gonna happen. And so for me, that's them saying, that's our motive. This is what we're after. Though I agree it's it's towards the bottom of the ones I like best. I think it gives a lot of story.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Okay, so next we have Lady Fingers. Ladyfingers is sung by Audrey, but Helen J. Shen is who sings this song. Oh, and we didn't mention before, I mean, if you need us to list Gaiton Madarazzo's uh credits, you know. I think I have said this to Amber before. His credit is you die, I die. That is what his credit is Dustin and Stranger Things. But a lot of people don't realize that he actually is quite prolific on Broadway. He's about to go into uh the revival of rent on the West End. Um and Casey Likes has done a few things. Number one, he's JD uh in Heathers, or was JD in Heathers uh uh and he's in a little little tiny Broadway show called Back to the Future. So we know how much uh Amber loves that.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Yeah, see, it is catered to us, tell ya. It's wild. You know what I mean? And what was Helen J. Shannon?

SPEAKER_00 49:34

Yeah, she just finished up in Maybe Happy Endings with your buddy Darren Chris. Uh so the award-winning Maybe Happy Endings. But she played a robot, by the way, in that, and this is very different, uh, just in case anybody wants to know. So I have to be honest that I am pretty confident in my sequence of events of this show, but this song I understand and I got very quickly what I think this is, but how it flows in the show is in a weird spot for me. This is the stumper part for me and my theories um of how this is all going down. But in any event, we know that Audrey is the housekeeper's daughter, right? We know that, that's in this description. So we think, uh, or I think, let me say, that uh Audrey is dad's illegitimate child. We both think that.

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah, is Harrison's child. Um, and when she's singing about Ladyfingers, it's you know very dark, very eerie. Uh Amber used the word lullaby, um, and I think I said music box. Like it's very useful in that way. And so I think it could even be a flashback, but I think it's really what her impression was of her growing up in this world wherein she was not allowed to have all the fancy things and the sweets and the lady fingers and the chocolates and the beautiful, wonderful things. Um, because again, she wasn't part of this, you know. This world. This world, yeah. So she wasn't part of this world, but yet she was there, right? Because she was a housekeeper's daughter, and all she wanted to do was be part of this world. Ariel. Hashtag Ariel. All she wanted to do was be part of this world, and again, this is so sort of childlike and but yet very creepy, creepy, creepy. That's the word I have. Um, I think it is all about her singing through like this is what I remember as a child, and or it's a flashback to when she was a child. What say you? I keep saying that. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 51:40

That's okay. Uh, this one I don't have a full confident feeling about. I have a couple of thoughts, but I just don't know for sure if it's right or on the right track. Um, I do agree with you, I think that she is dad's illegitimate child. I do agree with you that she uh longs to be a part of that life that she has been at least involved in through her mother and the and the relationship with her and Cameron and things like that. Um and I do think that this song having that childlike quality is on purpose to kind of infantilize her. I'm not sure I'm saying that word right, but to give her that childlike quality, to give her kind of a an eerie innocence, if that makes any sense. But I will also mention that in the description of the show, it says this is clue meets clueless. And I think that now we're starting to see the clue aspect, where I agree with you right before the uh first act ends, we get our first murder, so we gotta figure out, oh, who's the murderer? But the second act is everyone is a murderer, everyone is going to be responsible for a death. I think this is her either alluding to a death that she's gonna be responsible for, just because a few references in the songs were like, yes, for the most part, she's talking about like desserts and stuff in a very literal sense. But at one point, she talks about drinking coffee with ladyfingers and then she describes it like the dessert, but then she says that lady fingers are long and crusty. Those are dead fingers. Like that's a dead woman. And she also says that your fingers are sugar dusted with your custard. Take that as you will, I think it's a gross line, but I think that it's weird to say your custard. When you add like a possessive to that, she is singing to someone, and that's why I'm like, I feel like this is alluding to a murder she's about to do, or maybe she's doing it as the song is happening, because that's what I will start to say is these songs in the second act I think are happening as the deaths are occurring.

SPEAKER_00 53:43

See, I think we're on the same page, like we're in the same chapter, but maybe not on exactly the same page, which is to say each one of these songs that we're about to get is pretty much one for one, you know, for each of these characters coming up. I think each one of them, with the exception of one, is their death song. I think they're singing as they personally are dying. As they personally are dying. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

Okay. Yes. I think it's either them dying or them killing. That's what I think happened.

SPEAKER_00 54:13

So at the end, I'll kind of give you my domino effect of exactly what I think has gone down. But let's go on to the next one because you describe it beautifully, and I am not gonna lie, as much as I love Milo and I think he sounds like a damn million bucks on this song. It is so dense to me, and it took you explaining to me exactly what these lyrics were for me to even understand what he was talking about in some cases. So why don't you tell the people, walk us through Mortified? It's gorgeous, you all, but it is it's dense.

SPEAKER_03 54:45

This is my favorite song on the album. Well, I don't know, it kind of goes back and forth with Fine Rigamortis, but I love this song. I think Milo kills it. I think the lyrics, though dense, are beautiful. It is poetry, and it's Milo and a piano, which is all I have ever asked for in life. So it's beautiful. This song, I think, is setting the stage for the character's real personas. Up until this point, we've gotten a little bit from each character about they're not good people. Not a one in this cast that is a good person. They've all made bad choices, they've all done shitty things. And I think mortified is about recognizing in another person that what you thought you knew you didn't know, and you're mortified to learn that. This song is about remorse, but it's also kind of torturous. I imagine Ethan is addressing the party at the beginning of this song. It's possible that the ghost raising a toast that he's mentioned and the she that is mentioned throughout the entire song are references to specific characters, but I just don't know exactly which ones. But overall, the way that I take it is that the theme lends to people being two sides of the same coin and wondering which one is the right one to show to the world, being mortified of having the wrong one on display, or maybe mortified because you're realizing you were tricked by someone else's mask. Because I think everyone is lying to each other. I think everyone has self-preservation in this show. Like nobody knows what they're getting, and I think he's starting to see that. Using the imagery uh of a spider is absolutely brilliant in this song because that's representative of the darkness that everybody has in them, that dark side that everybody has. So using that spider imagery, we have the best line in the song, probably one of my favorites in the show. How do we know when the love has died that we love our silken silence more than we love the fly? To me, you're referencing your dark side, but you are so enveloped and so lost that you would rather just be alone as a spider on your silken web than to eat the fly that you have captured. Like, you know what I'm saying? There's such a sadness to this song, and the fact that it is wrapped up in this dual-sided personality that everybody has, I think is so brilliant. There's also a lot of mentions of shadows and dreams again in this song. Shadows and dreams comes up a lot in Cameron and Ethan songs specifically. The mention of shadows and light in this particular song, again, I think are lending to the dual-sidedness of people. And that's what we're starting to realize is what we thought we knew or thought we learned in the first half. We're starting to see the real side of people. Ethan being the brooding poet, I do think he's the most sensitive and the most in tune with his feelings, and he doesn't mean to hurt people. He's aware of what he's doing, and I think that's what this song is. It's the power ballad of the show. It's really unraveling the emotions for the audience before all hell is gonna break loose.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

Agreed. And I said, I think they're all death songs but one, and I think this is the one that is not a death song, obviously. For me, it again, he's reconciling the fact that he quote unquote slept with Demetrius. Um, but where Miresiz is him sort of trying to sort things out, you know, piece together what happened, all of that. I think this is him accepting that that happened and rem and to your point being remorseful for it. Um, my favorite line is a shadow understands that the sunlight lets him dance, but the night won't let him be. Meaning, of course, I think I can move on and I will, and life will go on, but it will always come back to haunt me. And then he says, How do we know when the love has died, as you mentioned? And then at the end, he says, We know we will never rest in peace, which means, of course, like this is going to eat at him for the rest of forever. To your point, he wants to just like forget it. I'm just gonna barely go on living, I'm just gonna go through the motions, but this is always gonna sit with me.

SPEAKER_03 59:02

I do agree with that, but I wanna know what happened that is not in the songs to be this catalyst for this reaction for this song, right? Because I think he found something out. I think whether it was about Cameron or whether it's about Demetrius, something was revealed to him that he was not expecting, that he was not ready to accept, and now he's lamenting that. He's taking in that information, and that's why he's mortified is he's like, I can't believe I didn't see this coming. I can't believe I didn't know this. And whether that's like maybe he saw Cameron kill somebody, maybe Demetrius told him something that he didn't know. Maybe Cameron cheated on him with Ned. Maybe something else happened that is making him be like, Well, that's it. That like, I guess we're done. I'm so embarrassed I didn't see this coming. I think that this is a reaction to something that happened.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

Shall we go to the next song as we uh go down the line here? There's not too many left. Um, put another love to bed. Put another love to bed. You and I have a differing opinion, I think, on this song, so I'll start. I should say again, this is the gorgeously talented Mason Alexander Park as Demetrius giving their song to the world, let's just say. And what I think this is, is the call back to Rigamortis. And why I think that is the first verse is them realizing now that it actually didn't happen. Like I think they remember something, some key point of the night, uh, and they're confessing that it didn't happen, and they're showing us this uh lapse in memory, or you know, just being messy is a pattern in general. So the first verse, they're calling back and asking the questions again. The verse is was he ever really there, even kissing me? Did I push him out the door? Did he think I was his whore? Was I stupid? Or did I lose him because of size? Which, by the way, I'm doing this no justice. You have to listen to the song. It's very funny. Um then they go on to say, save it, sugar, for the shrink. And the second verse, all of the grammar is pointing us to, I'm intentionally using that word because all of the grammar is pointing us to the fact that they've done this before. Just another summer saga, pour another death a drink, um, all the parties, all the meds, by the way. So again, this this you know, call back to you know, this was it, an altered experience, uh, whether it happened or didn't happen. And so they then end that particular verse with I lost him because of size instead of did I lose him because of size? And so for me, this song is saying, here's the deal. I do this a lot, and so I just went with it, and I'm messy, and it didn't really happen, but you know, it happens to me often. Sorry. I didn't do this one, but I do it. So I think they are revealing this as they are dying. All right.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:00

I think that this is the first song that you and I are completely different on. Completely different. Go ahead. Uh, so I think that this song is a front. Um, I think that Demetrius is hurt. I think that pride is wounded because they do do this a lot. And they are not used to being rejected. They're not used to somebody saying, no, it meant nothing to me. And it's very clear that they have a thing for Ethan. And so I think that they're trying to pretend that this didn't matter. I think that they're just trying to put on a brave face and be like, I don't care. I don't care that you don't care. Like, it didn't even matter. Like, did you even kiss me? I don't know. I think that they are just they're upset. I also agree with you that there are callbacks, but I don't think it's to rigor mortise. Was he ever even there kissing me? Did he merely disappear behind his eyes? That's from mirror size. Mirror size, they talk about. I look in my eyes and and I'm not really there. The fact that Demetrius is echoing something from mirror size, I think shows that they're longing for Ethan and Cameron's connection and that they're heartbroken, that that's never gonna be. And all the heartache, all the head, save it sugar for the shrink, again, they're using humor as a way to work through that what they're feeling. They want to talk to somebody about it. They are feeling a certain way. They are upset. Now, they say, pour another death a drink, all the parties, all the meds, and then the song stops. It's almost reminiscent to record scratch, where it stops. If you think from like a stage storytelling standpoint, in my brain, that was a light bulb moment. They just got an idea, and I think that Demetrius is hurt by Ethan's lack of connection. The song is merely a front for their pain. Did Demetrius kill Ethan? Uh meds and boos. And that's why in the next song we hear Ethan dying. Because Demetrius gets this idea that they're gonna mix meds and boos together, and they're gonna, you know, you know what? You deserve to die because you completely rejected me and broke my heart. So nobody gets you. That's what I think happened in that song.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

Or does Ethan get killed by Demetrius so that Ethan doesn't say anything? Could be. Because Ethan has figured something out about that evening, how it didn't happen, and now he's gonna go get Cameron back. And Demetrius is like, no, we can't have that. Over my dead body.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

You know.

unknown 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Quite loose.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

But I do think that that Demetrius killed Ethan. That's what I think is happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:49

Okay. We'll see. Alright, so referencing my second favorite song on the album, uh, mostly I think it is so beautiful, and mostly because uh Ramin Caramlew is also on this song as dad um Harrison, uh, and he is the Broadway for sure. Uh I say this every time. Any Broadway male starring role you can think of, he has played. He has played The Phantom, he's a lot of people's favorite. He has played Jean Valjean. I saw him in Funny Girl as Nicki Anstein. I could continue on with his credits. And he's a very handsome man too, I might add, by the bye. Yeah, yeah, he is. Uh I see you, Suze. So, It's Nothing is a duet between Harrison, Cameron's dad, and Ethan, Cameron's ex love, right? So for me, and I think we might disagree on this as well. I I've mentioned this to Amber before. It's kind of like Agony in a way, Agony from Um Into the Woods, the song between the two princes. It's kind of like the two of them volleying back and forth. And forth about their own personal things that they're singing about. Yet they're again singing the same things, but they're coming from a completely different perspective. So I think Dad is saying, Yes, I've cheated. Don't worry about it. It's no big deal. It doesn't hurt. You get over it. He says it's nothing. A simple death of consciousness, it's nothing. You feel a little chilly, yes, then nothing. Meaning you realize what's going on and it's not great, but then you get over it really quick. Um, a darkness that glows. Um, Ethan is singing the opposite. Ethan is singing sort of the same the same thing, like words, the same words for the most part. Um, but he is again in that sort of remote remorseful piece, right? Um, and I don't think they're in the same room, by the way. I think they're in two different rooms for a reason. So Ethan says, you lose it, you breathe your last. So that's why I think he's dying, because of course he's running through all of the problems he's got, running through everything and he's doing as one might do as they're dying. You breathe your last, review the past, but screw it. You blew it, you know. Again, the remorse of it all. Call back to the mortified. Um, and I think again, I think they're both dying. I think they're both dying. Harrison is saying, um, still the still feels the world should be all about me. Um, and Ethan is saying, Unreal that it could still go on and do without me. Ugh. Ethan, so heartbroken for you. It also gives for my fangirlies of Broadway, for me for some reason, but I it gives a little fall of rain for Blaimiz when Cosette dies. I don't know why, but it's gives me that sort of vibe as well. Um, and why are they both dying, Amber? Did you like me to tell you? Yeah. Cause there's a song in between that's a duet between mom and Cameron, and they're gonna go kill these guys who cheated on them.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

So mom killed dad, and Cameron kills Ethan. And I think that before he dies, like a Romeo and Juliet style situation, she's a romantic, everyone. Um, that it comes to light that it didn't actually happen. And she's now killed him. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:24

Go ahead. Alright. There are some things that line up, and there are some things that don't line up. So I am I'm impressed that there's things that line up. Uh, I don't think he's talking about cheating at all. When I looked at the lyrics today, I was like, oh no, he's talking about death. So the song is called It's Nothing. Where have we heard nothing before? I'll take you back to the opening song, Something That's Sure. And she references nothing like six times. Nothing is death. So saying it's nothing, they are both dying. I agree with you on that. I'm not a hundred percent sure that dad is dying, but he's trying to minimize what's happening, whether it's I'm in denial that that Ethan is dying, or no, it's fine, it's nothing, it's nothing. Don't worry about it. Like minimizing it by saying a simple death of consciousness. You get chill, yes, but it's nothing. A little snap and then you nap. Whose neck did you snap? That's my question. A little snap and then you nap, you breathe your last, review the past. Yeah, he knows he's dying. This is about death, and them saying it's nothing is them trying to like calm themselves down that they're like, we're not dying, right? This is nothing. We're fine. It's nothing. It's something, it's death. You think you'll catch a bit of rest, uh, then nothing, you take the hit, and then that's it. You take what hit? Something happened. And I'm not sure if it means that they're both dying, which I think I'm more on the fence that both of them are dying together at the same time. But I also have a thought that dad killed somebody too, and he's trying to minimize it and not make it as big a deal as it actually is. I think that in the very first song, when she says it that many times, that's what she's foreshadowing is all of these deaths that are to come.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Okay. We have a difference of opinion, that's okay. So let's go to the last few here. Uh, Girl Went Down. Girl Went Down. A good song. It's a great song, and Joy Kills It. Yeah, I used that word pun intended. Kills it. Um, it is so delicious. That's the word I would say about that song. It's delicious. Um, and here's what I think. Suze killed the housekeeper in the beginning. So that's our first death is the housekeeper. That's what sets us all off and shuts all the lock, the lock gets us locked down. Because remember, she wants dad. Like, and the housekeeper had dad, so she's gotta go. Um, and then she gives us the confirmation that mom is alive. And this is why I think mom is alive, because she says, turned out to be no crippling disease, no liver decay from the booze. Um so that's just another obstacle for her that she's gonna mom. Um, and that could be the death of my dreams. So then she kills mom. So now mom's dead because mom killed dad. As you remember, I believe mom killed dad in the last song. So then Suze is like, hell to the no, you killed my love, or you know, my fuck buddy in this case, maybe. Whatever it is, be able to get. Yeah, you killed, so now you gotta go, babe. You're out of here. Um, a carriage to eternity, it stops for you, it stops for me. You climb in for eternity, not like that's immortality. Which means to me again that she's dying in this song. And who's killing her? Cameron. Cameron's like, now you really killed my mother? Oh, I don't care if you were my best friend. You are out, done, and now I'm killing you. Um, and and there's a lot of imagery, uh, like what do we call it? Gruesome horror sort of imagery, um, spit spilling of brains and all of this stuff. Right. And I think this is her saying, it's her confession song, right? Yeah, I did it. I killed the housekeeper, and I killed mom. Yeah, sure did. And yeah, when I killed uh mom, everything gone, brains are spilling out. It was a gruesome death because I was real fucking pissed that she did that to my man. So that's what I think. And then I think, of course, Cameron is avenging her mother.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:49

I think that that is fair. If the mother killed the father, then Suze would have the motive to want to, you know, kill the mother. But my only thing is I think about the clue aspect of it all, where I think that everybody would have to kill one person. So, like, if Suze is killing more than one person, like, not that it's a rule, but that's just the way that my brain is working, is that just formulaically, it would be like each person is responsible for someone else's death. So that's my only pause. Um, I have a slightly different take. I do not believe that Suze is referencing the mother in this song. I think that Suze cares about status. She mentions it a lot in this song, and Suze is all about her and being the center of attention. I think Suze is dead. I think the girl that went down whose brains are on the ground is Suze. I think that she's making a whole musical number about her death. And the reason I think that is because she says it couldn't be the death of my dreams. It's interesting how we took these words because you use the same line. You said it couldn't be the death of my dreams, meaning like, oh my gosh, my dreams are dead. I took it as, I don't die like this. This is not the death of my dreams. I don't go out like this. I don't go out with my brains being splattered on the floor. I don't know. Because then she follows it up with, well, at least I look good in these shoes. So that's why I think that she's dead. She's doing this big song and dance about how she was killed. Um, whoever gets the death they expect. So there you go, right there. She's already comparing. Like, does anybody get the death that they expect? Or is it just whatever happens to you? Who cares what you're leaving behind? You're stuck in some club that's dead for all time. At least you're not standing out in line. She's still obsessed with status. She's not even alive anymore, and she's like, Well, at least I'm part of this exclusive club called Death, and I'm not outside standing in line like some loser. Like, she's so obsessed with status, which is why I do believe and support your idea that like she's definitely got her claws in the dad because she wants that life, she wants that inheritance, but I do think that she is dying in this, and I think that she is the girl that went down. I think that somebody killed her, and I think that someone is Cameron.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

We're saying the same thing, but we're getting there on different roads. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think we both agree this is her death song. I think we both uh seem to think that Cameron did it. Um, but how we got there is a little different, so I'll take that. Okay, so we come to the last two songs now. Fucking Scream, which is let's call it the single that uh uh was released first and we've heard the most, which is ironic because to me it says the least. I haven't read the lyrics yet. Maybe if I read them I would, you know, think differently. But I have a theory as to what has happened, but like the song itself to me is I it's going over my head, and I am, you know, woman enough to raise my hand and say so. Um, so for me, I think this is my plot twist, okay? I think that Cameron found out about these cameras a long time ago and let it and let it roll. Because I think Cameron has been masterminding all of this as it's been going down, the boredom of it all, all the things. And so I think she's purposefully let this roll and sort of maybe used her feminine wiles or didn't stop the crush that was happening by Graham. So he's figuring out how to break into this fortress, and he is doing that with the police or whatever, and she's like, uh, no, it was him. He did all this, and I can show you because he's got cameras, so he's the one who is masterminding all of this, and so she's framing him to be able to get up and out on her own. He's coming to the mansion, and then I think that she knows that these cameras had been placed a long time ago and allowed that to be so that she could frame him. Because, of course, they'll who are they gonna believe? The creeper that's been having cameras on them the whole time, or the social light heiress. I think what she didn't bargain for in the whole thing for me, I think what she didn't bargain for was mom being alive and then killed, and then I think she didn't bargain for Ethan not having done the big betrayal. Yeah. That's what I think she didn't bargain for, but I think she sort of kind of orchestrated the rest of this. Not like I don't think she had it like, you know, I think she was playing a game, kind of. Because we know in the first song she talks about boredom and how she does she's not gonna do that anymore, she's not gonna be bored by all these things.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:38

I do like the idea of the cameras being a plot device, that maybe that's how Graham was kind of able to keep track of what was going on inside. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but I I I like the idea of the cameras being part of it. But for the song Fucking Scream, I think he is the only person that has witnessed Cameron do something awful.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:06

I agree, but I think she's like, not me, not me. Look at this dude. He's got cameras in my house. You gonna believe him over me?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

I understand what you're saying, but the cameras are capturing her doing it. That doesn't make a lot of sense for her to be like, look at the cameras, because the cameras would capture her doing it. But like, what I'm saying is, out of everybody else that's there, they're all very bad people. There's a whole overarching theme of everybody having a dark side, and everybody else's dark side has been brought to the forefront, but Cameron's has been buried. That's been her whole thing throughout the whole show is I don't want to access this part of me. I don't want to let this part of me out. And then I think when she killed Suze, Graham saw it happen. And in this song, he's like, Yes, you are dark and you should own it. And he's like, stop denying who you are. And that's why like he says, um, walk a world that's gone from you, a world that holds no part of you. Stop trying to be a part of this world that you so truly and so obviously don't want anything to do with. Like, you hate that world. So just embrace the fact that you are dark. He says, no, darling, which implies that he's singing to someone, and in this case, I do think he's singing this song to Cameron. That's why he's saying to scream, let it out. You have been silent, which Ethan talks about in Mortified. The she he keeps referring to in Mortified, he refers to her as silent over and over again. Here, Graham is saying, scream. You need to be who you really are. He says, Do as the beasties do, bend and weep, that you're a beastie too. You are dark. It's okay. So he's like, because he's the one that's been in rehab every and like trying to battle both of his dark side, his dark and light sides. So in some ways, he might feel like Cameron might understand where I'm coming from, or I might understand where she's coming from. And so he's trying to tell her, like, it's okay. And then I think that she kills him or something, because he doesn't show up at the end of the show. And there's a lot of mentions of dreams in this song. Um, so I think that he's like trying to get her to accept who she is, and even though she doesn't want to, and I don't know if it turns, I don't know if she kills him or what, but that's what I think is happening in this song.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:32

Alright, and I'm gonna push us right over into our last song because it kind of for me it's giving me the uh context. The last song is trying to wrap us up. I think no one sits on high is very anthemic, but uh for sure, but I also find it to be whimsical in its actual musicality. Um, and so she's saying she paid the price, a little blood and such, but so much fun. Uh a little water wipes you clean. Sure, not the only dream you dream. And so, again, I think for me, that's what's pointing me in the direction of she spearheaded most, let's call it, of this to be. She was she's also happy with how this has all ended up, um, except for her mother and Ethan. Um, I also think there is an offshoot. This is me getting like crazy daydreamy Becky, which is to say, there could also be another character that is somewhere in this that we find out that mom was cheating too, so mom is not on the pedestal that Cameron has put her on, and so that is why she's not so unhappy towards the end that mom is out of the picture as well. I don't know that to be true, but it was just something that kind of like briefly flew through my brain.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:40

If you play uh something that's sure, and then you immediately play No One Sits on High, it's so interesting to listen to because it starts with that quiet, reserved intensity that she has, and it goes to this like levity, like to your point, whimsical, where she has let herself go. And I really think that the song before that Graham sings with her unleashes her, where she's like, you know what? You're right, you're right. I had a great time. You know, I gave into the darkness, and now all the worst people in my life are dead, and I don't even care. She finally gives into the darkness that she's been fighting. So again, like it's it's not like a happy ending so much, but it's like a dark happy ending because she's finally like exactly whatever she needs to be. Yeah, she's free. And like the the whole idea of no one sits on high, like this whole song is she's like, everybody's dead. We had a great time with a party, and there's nothing for you after this. There's no one sitting on high, there's no one waiting for you, there's no angels weeping, you're done. Your life is over. Ha ha! Like, that's kind of how I hear her singing it, where she's like, I don't give a shit. You guys are bad people and you got what you deserved.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:53

Except for Ethan. I truly, truly believe that we find out I have a theory that she is remorseful of that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:01

But I want to- I'm gonna tell you my quick theory. I think that because it's Milo Mannheim, you have a very hard time making him a bad guy. And you're like, out of the way. A thousand percent you're like, Ethan's an innocent bystander in all of this.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

But I do think I agree, I agree with you uh for sure. That I mean that's literally factual. But I also like the idea, whoever it would be, of the plot twist that this linchpin of this whole thing is based on something that didn't actually happen. And that she then has to be the one to deal with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:40

I do like the idea that if she was the one that killed Ethan, I don't think she was, but if she was, and then she found out that she didn't need to because he was innocent, that would be just that I mean that's good writing, but that would be just so heartbreaking. Okay, what's your cadence? Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:57

Okay, so this is so everyone out there, just laugh. It's fine. I don't, I don't care. Uh, if you've listened to us enough, you uh especially if you listen to any of our school spirits episodes, you know that we like to throw a theory to the wind and see what happens. Uh so okay, I think the housekeeper dies in the beginning. I think that's how we start this off because we have to have this lockdown. And I think then it's mostly finding out in act one all about these people and kind of who they are and character development, let's call it, right? Um, I think act two everyone starts killing each other, as we said. So I think Audrey, this is the only one that I'm like, this is a little stretch back, but I think Audrey is killed by Demetrius because I think she figured out exactly what actually happened. Maybe she actually saw something of what happened because that's due to us finding out how observant she is as we're talking about the lady fingers of it all. Um so I think Demetrius was like, oh shit, shh, she's gonna tell everybody that this didn't really happen, right? So that's what I think. Um she never told because it worked in her favor for Ethan and Cameron to break up since she was in love with Cameron. Okay. I don't think Demetrius and Audrey were working together, but I think that was just a mutually beneficial situation. Um and then I think Demetrius is killed by Ethan, because the rage of it all, I guess. Um, and then I think that Ethan is killed by Cameron, then I think that dad is killed by mom, and then I think mom and the housekeeper at the beginning were killed by Suze, and that Cameron frames Graham for killing everyone, and Graham's out to jail, and Cameron lives on. And that's what I think happened. In a very short, succinct way.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:40

You know, I haven't thought about it. Um I do think that Suze killed the housekeeper. I do think that. I think that Demetrius kills Ethan. I think that Audrey kills the dad. I mean, I can I can understand why you would think that. Yeah. But then I'm like, I don't know who killed Suze unless it was Cameron. Because we're also missing Ned. Where's Ned in all of this?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:06

But see, that's my thing. I don't think I think that was before, and so I don't think Ned even has anything to do with that. You don't think he's even part of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:13

Okay. Yeah. And then so I think at the end, so I think maybe Cameron kills Suze, and then I don't know, maybe Graham and Cameron end up together, or something happens to Graham. Graham's really the only one I don't really know his fate. But I feel like everybody else I have at least like a thought of.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:31

I don't know why, but literally in my brain I see a scene of Graham being like taken out by the police or whatever, and being like, I I didn't do it, you know, kind of a thing. And Cameron's like, you know, I think she framed him.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:50

I don't know why. I just do. Which which would track because again, I really do think the entire arc is her giving into the darkness. I really do. And so if that's how the ending is of her being like, it was you or me, and so it wasn't gonna be me, like that would track for that arc.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:05

Alright, my dear. Well, we've come to the end of Murder at the Gates. Again, as mentioned, I'm very sad that we will not know what actually happens until Steven gets a backer, which again, we're not doing a blessed manifest since this is a bonus episode. But you know that the entire manifest of this episode is A, of course, that this is coming to the stage, and B, of course, that at some point Milo's gonna be in it because that is the beauty of this marketing that they will be able to have tons of repetitive visiting by people because they probably won't be able to get all these people in one place at one time, but they certainly can come in and out. And so you will go back to see Milo in it, or you'll go back to see Gayton in it, or you'll go back to see Joy in it. Um, and so I I think it it really has legs to make money, which is what it is all about, obviously, but also it is art and it has us thinking and it's provoking this super fun game of an episode, basically, that we just did. So I am manifesting that big time.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:02

And it will probably be a while until that comes to fruition because it will come to fruition. It'll just a matter of when. So, again, uh, we'll shoot our shots. Stephen and James, if you feel so inclined to send us a script, we would love to look it over. But uh until then, if you want to continue listening to our podcast, we would love that. You can hear us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you find your podcast. Uh, you can always follow us on the socials at uh Fangirls of a Certain Age on TikTok and Instagram. Thank you so much, everybody. I love you, Becky, and I love Milo Manheim.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:38

I love you as well, and I love Ethan, aka Milo Manheim. Bye, everybody, I'm gonna be able to get it.