19 Why Being Seen Matters More Than Status with DeNeen Attard

What if one simple piece of advice could change how you show up for yourself for the next 20 years? In this episode of Cupcakes and Clarity, Lisa Pirinelli sits down with DeNeen Attard, leadership strategist, speaker, author, and founder of Attard Leadership Academy. Long before Lisa became a coach, podcast host, or leadership expert herself, DeNeen was one of the first people who made her feel seen and valued in the workplace.

Get ready to explore the leadership lessons that shaped both of their careers, including the power of making people feel heard, the importance of self-advocacy, why titles don't make leaders, and how learning to say no can be one of the most powerful leadership skills of all.

Whether you're leading a team, building a business, or simply trying to show up more confidently in your own life, this conversation is packed with wisdom that will help you lead with intention, humanity, and clarity.

 What listeners will learn:

• How one small act of leadership can create a lasting impact on someone's confidence and career.
• Why making people feel seen and valued is one of the most important leadership skills.
• How to stop placing your happiness and expectations in other people's hands.
• The surprising leadership lesson behind taking your birthday off and creating intentional self-care.
• Why you don't need a title to have influence and make a difference.
• How mentors and psychologically safe environments help people grow into stronger leaders.
• The role self-doubt plays in leadership, even for highly successful professionals.
• Why introverts often make exceptional leaders.
• Practical strategies for speaking up and advocating for yourself, even if you're naturally quiet.
• How to prepare for meetings and conversations so you can contribute with confidence.
• Why listening may be a leader's most underrated superpower.
• How understanding what matters to others strengthens relationships and team performance.
• The importance of balancing professional success with personal fulfillment.
• How to identify your strengths, passions, and the work that gives you purpose.
• Why loving your work doesn't mean every day will feel easy.
• How to recognize when opportunities align, or don't align, with your goals.
• Why saying "no" is a critical leadership skill for high-achieving women.
• How setting boundaries protects your energy, focus, and capacity to lead effectively.
• The leadership habits that help build trust, connection, and long-term influence.
• How to lead with more intention, confidence, and humanity in both work and life.

FAQ:

How can I become a more confident leader?

Confidence grows through experience, preparation, and practice. By speaking up, sharing your ideas, and learning from both successes and mistakes, you build the confidence needed to lead effectively.

Why is making people feel seen and heard so important?

When people feel valued and understood, they are more engaged, more willing to contribute, and more likely to trust their leaders. Strong relationships are built on genuine connection and active listening.

Can introverts be effective leaders?

Absolutely. Introverts often excel at listening, observing, and thoughtfully responding to others. These qualities can make them highly effective leaders who build strong relationships and make informed decisions.

Connect with DeNeen Attard:

LinkedIn

Attard Leadership Academy

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to Cupcakes and Clarity, a podcast for high achieving limit and want success and fulfillment without burning it all down. I'm your host, Lisa Pirinelli. Every Tuesday I'm bringing you honest conversations and practical strategies to help you create more balance, purpose, and joy in your work and your life. Think of this as a heart-to-heart with a trusted friend. Together we'll get real about the challenges you face, and you'll leave every episode feeling clear, confident, and inspired to make your next chapter your best life yet. Hi, welcome back to Cup Naking Clarity. I'm Lisa Pierinelli. Today's guest has a connection to my story that goes back more than 20 years. Before coaching, before the podcast, before I had language for what I valued in leadership, I was working as a temp employee, supporting three area sales managers in a corporate environment. And something stood out to me. While others mostly overlooked me, they ignored me, just kept walking past because I was a temp. There was one person who treated me like someone whose contributions could actually matter. She involved me, she utilized me as a resource, and that person was Denina Tard. And during those few months, she also gave me one of the most unexpectedly memorable pieces of advice that I have ever received that I actually remember and I have actually followed for over 20 years. And that is to take your birthday off of work, plan the day exactly how you want it, because then you'll never be disappointed. And at the time, in my young 20-year-old self, it sounded simple, but looking back, I think it was one of my earliest experiences of someone modeling intentional living, not just productivity. And today, Denise's work centers around helping people grow into stronger leaders, communicators, and professionals. She's a leadership strategist, speaker, author of more than 10 books, and founder of Atard Leadership Academy. And for more than 20 years, she's helped individuals and organizations develop stronger leaders, better communication, and the kind of skills that help people grow professionally and personally. She's worked with organizations across workforce development and leadership, and then she's passionate about helping people moving from simply knowing what to do to actually putting it into practice. But what makes this conversation especially meaningful for me is that long before any of that, she was someone who showed me what thoughtful leadership looked like in a very ordinary workplace setting. And more than 20 years later, I still remember it. And in this really thin full circle moment, Danine is also one of the organizers behind this year's Indiana Women in Tech Conference, Fueling Your Future, sponsored by Emphasis, where I'll be joining as one of the speakers. Danine, welcome to Cupcakes and Clarity.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Lisa, Lisa, Lisa, thank you so much for having me here. I look forward to walking down memory lane and talking about the things that are going on regarding uh the event that you're going to be participating in and of course leadership.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Oh, that's so awesome. I'm so happy. I can't even tell you how happy I am that you're here and how excited. You're one of the people who I was so excited to be able to circle back with. We both have a connection to Allies, um, the nonprofit organization. And when you came in to see them, I think you maybe did a podcast episode with Jessica on that. And we got reconnected, which again, I wasn't sure if you would even remember who I was, but to have you come back full circle moment, be able to do that. And then again, even with the upcoming conference, for you to, you know, invite me back in, it's really a full circle moment of like, hey, coach, put me on. I'm here, it's what I want to do. And and you are, so I'm so grateful that you're willing to be on the episode today and share your story. So when you hear me talk about the story 20 some years ago where you gave me the birthday advice, do you even remember not necessarily that moment, but just like even remember that that was something that you had shared? Was that something you share with other people too?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

I'll tell you this. That practice became so important to me after having these expectations of what other people should do for me for my birthday, which meant that I was ultimately putting the control of my happiness in someone else's hands. And it occurred to me one day, you know, why why don't you just plan the day that you want to experience? And I started, the first thing I started doing was taking the day off. It's it's about me. That's the time that I say, I'm gonna be selfish. I am going to celebrate me and my life. And so I started by taking the day off. And it was something simple that I did the first time. I went and had breakfast at a local cafe. I took a book with me. I read the book, I chatted with people, then I grew and then I went to a spa day. I remember I went to a spa in Indianapolis. It was, I don't even think it's there. It's it was a day spa. And I booked six hours of treatment and just hung out there. And then I took myself to dinner. It wasn't that I didn't have friends that I could hang out with. Well, I just wanted something that was my own and that would allow me to express how I felt about me in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Love it. I'm telling you, like, I have done this now. When I became a mom, it was a little more challenging sometimes. If my birthday fell on a like now, my birthday falls on spring break. And so that's like, and I'm a young, young child. So it's not like we're going to necessarily live it up spring break style where it's just super relaxing. But what I still do is I still I modify it and maybe I don't do it on my actual birthday, but I find a day to do that. And for years, I because of your advice, um, I did start doing the spa thing too. I absolutely used to love going to the day spa and getting a massage and just having that permission to care for myself, even if it was just for one day allowing myself to do that. But I do think it actually overlapped into other areas of my life. Like right the practice, it was like a muscle. I started feeling comfortable with doing that, and then you start to see like the benefits of that, that self-care, and something else I want to talk, because I know self-awareness is a big piece for you in your in your leadership style teaching. So just that becoming a self-aware of you know what's important to me, and then also the self-empowerment piece of choosing, like what I said, intentional, intentional living. I was like thinking back to that, and I thought, yeah, I probably, you know, I don't know, I was like 24, 25 when you gave me that advice. And I'm sure at the time I just was like, wow, that's really cool. But I don't think I realized the bigger message there, which was you know, self-empowerment to to take care of yourself. And also, I look at it so in such a different way from the other people in your life's perspective that you would be putting pressure on them to make your day special. And basically, unless you're guiding them, you're kind of potentially setting them up for failure. Unless you're just one of those people that's very good about vocalizing what you want. And I am not. So I'd rather just plan up myself, and I love that. Plus, I'm a bit of an introvert, so I enjoy the time by myself and reconnecting. So I just I will tell you, I have paid it forward by sharing your advice with so many women, especially if I hear them talk about their birthday or being disappointed or it's coming up. But I love sharing it with people who are younger because I was again, I was in my early 20s, and I'm thinking, had I gotten that later in life, it's still valuable. But to have had all of those young years to just go in it with that perspective, I really, really am grateful.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Uh, thank you so very much. And I'm so happy that you had you're uh passing it forward. One thing I want to go back to when you make the introduction, you were talking about the engagement between you and I and feeling seen and heard. I'd like to share a brief story on how that foundation was settled in me. I watched my mother, who was, she didn't graduate from high school, but very self-educated. And she worked at a school as a matron, which many people would consider the lowest position there. However, my mom had influence with the principal, the city workers, the uh school district uh leaders. They would come in and ask her questions about what do you think this impact will have on the students? And she was engaging in conversation. My dad, the same thing. He was engaging in a conversation with local politicians about what needed to be done in the neighborhood. My father only had a fourth grade education. He was the eldest, he was born on a farm. He was also self-taught. Watching them navigate a system that prizes education above everything and being able to do it successfully. I didn't realize then what I was learning, but I was learning that you can have influence without a title. You, when you respect people, no matter who they are, and what level that you know an organization has assigned to them, and just look at them and see them as people, life becomes much simpler. Engagement and conversations become much more engaging because the ability to put someone at ease and feel seen and heard puts them in a secure space to where they want to engage with you. And I just wanted to go back and touch that because as people listen to this, there may be someone that has a position that they don't consider it where they want to be and they're holding back because they don't think that anyone will listen to them. So those people listen, I encourage you, don't wait until you have that title. There are some techniques that you can learn to be able to engage with others, no matter whether it's your entry level and you're the receptionist at the front desk saying hello, or you are mid-level and you're looking to transition. Always remember that titles come and go, but what the skills that you grasp and the way that you treat people will carry you much farther.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Well, I think that's beautiful. It's a great example. Your parents definitely gave you a great lead-by-example moment and on the way that they came from their education, because you are so highly educated and you educate others. So it's so interesting that how well this, how this transitioned in your life and just like really helped you see things, even though you were so educated and you were so accomplished that you would share that story is really amazing because I was listening, like I shared with you before, I was listening to some of your um micro lessons on your podcast. And one of them was about not having the title but still being a leader. Like, even does it matter what your title is, lead by example and show up the way you want people to see you. And I thought that was really powerful because one of the things I noticed when I'm coaching women leaders, they may have the title, right? They have it, or maybe, and maybe they're even working to get to the next level. But so many of people think that the title will change something about their situation, their circumstances. And yes, you will have a different title, and it could sound way more impressive, and you'll you could, right? Salary and benefits could change and get better, but with that comes responsibility that maybe you haven't thought about because we're so success-driven in titles. So I think it's pretty, it's a really incredible message to help people who are looking to move up or aspire to something to do that inner work as they're doing it, and basically step into the role before you're actually in it. And so you have that foundational work. You're already there. So with all the leadership, because you you have quite the journey. When I met you, we were in telecom. Again, you were a you were an area sales manager, so you are over Teams. What was your transition? Like, how did you kind of transition into this? Because you you mostly help women, I know, because you have the you're helping, I'm in the conference with you that's women in tag. Do you mostly coach women? Is it only women that come to the academy or is it oh no?

SPEAKER_00 13:43

As a matter of fact, uh, Atari Leadership Academy works for corporations, individuals, and uh a wide variety of professionals to help them develop. The one-on-one is a small part of what we do at Atari Leadership Academy on the grander scale, is that we work with businesses to help them prepare their new and emerging leaders for their first leadership role. And we do that through various methods, whether it be workshops or seminars. But at the heart of everything, it started with women because I know what it's like to have the title and not to have the confidence. And I'll go back to something that not very many people know. I mean, I've shared the story, but when we were in telecom together, I was one of the most insecure leaders that I thought existed. It was because there was a dialogue going on in my mind. You know, you know, nobody's gonna listen to you. You're fresh out of college. This is the first time you've managed a team. It wasn't until I don't even know where this gentleman is. His name was Chuck Garlock. He worked uh as a VP of telecom. And he is the person that I modeled my leadership style simply because even before we started talking about allies, he was an ally for me. He brought me into his office one day and he said, Hey, you know, I know the wonderful ideas that you come up with and how you're leading your team. Your sales are, you know, far above everyone else. But no one else, when when I call on you to share, you won't say anything. I need you to know that there is nothing that you can say or do that we can't fix together. No one's ever told me that. No one's ever said, I have your back. He says, let's start showcasing your talent so that not only when I speak about what it is that you can do, people hear it from me, but they also hear it from you because you're talking about your success and wins, and you can help your team. And then he went a step further. He said, by the way, it's gonna happen next week. When we host our next meeting, I'm calling on you. And we had that dialogue, and it was from that moment on I knew I was in a safe psychological environment, someone that was going to help me develop, and someone when I missed it, I missed the shot many times. And he called me in my up in his office and he said, Hey, whoo, that was kind of rough today, wasn't it? I see, yeah, it was Chuck. He says, Let's let's play it back. How could we do it differently next time? Those were the conversations we had, and that allowed me to step into the person that you probably saw show up more often.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

But we need more people like that in the work environment. I I um I remember him. Um I did not have I didn't have a real I didn't work directly with him, so I remember the name, but I'm hearing that and that it's all so powerful and that it's such a game changer to feel like you have this, right? You had a safe place, you had a mentor, someone that you could mess up around, and you knew that like they were gonna help get you back on track or guide you or influence you into the way that was gonna allow you to be your best self. That is so powerful. So, do you like that moment? Is that kind of I understand, like if you look back, you're gonna look at where you're at now and all of that you've built. Is that one of those foundational pieces to your past that you think helped get you to where you are? Like, where has it helped mold how you created the academy and how you work with people? 100%.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

It was the foundation for on which I laid everything that I learned in school. You know, you go to school and you learn the theory about leadership and management and all of those things, and those are great. But when it comes to putting those to practice, you need a playing a playing field. He created that feel for me. I was able to win big. I had some losses because no one that's moving forward is going to win 100% of the time. But I had a safe place to land and he challenged me. And we often overlook individuals uh that have the power to help us grow. And I use that as an example because I originally thought he didn't like me as a manager because he would come in my store and he would be in and out of my store on his visits when I was we would travel the district in less than five minutes. Come to find out, he says, because I don't have to second guess what your store is doing. I know that it is doing 100% of what needs to be done. I've already checked your books. There is nothing that we have to discuss. So your visits are actually the most pleasant for me. I says, Well, you could have told me that beforehand because I was the nervous.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

You're like, Don't you know silence in the brain will create a story? You're like, if you do not tell me my because we always have that underlying insecurity. So many of I mean, even the most confident person can have that. There's always this little bit in there, and silence just helps it grow. So what a blessing that you actually did get to have that conversation. Hopefully, going forward, he learned that as well as okay, maybe I should say something to the people that are doing so great. Let them real, you know, because he's probably thinking, you know, I'm just on to the next one. Great, check it off the list, not realizing that you were filling that silence with another story. And I remember when there was when I first got into a new position, I got promoted and I was working for um one of my favorite managers. And I just wanted to prove myself so much that I just kept moving, right? I just kept working, put my head down, and I was trying to do so much to not bother him so that when we had our meetings, I was just like high level, this is kind of what I'm doing. And more like, hey, what do you have for me? I'm in here, what you know, you're my you're my manager. What do you want to give me? Not I'm here to tell you anything. And I did this for quite a while, thinking that was the right thing to do. And then one time he was in a leadership meeting and someone knew something about what I was doing that he didn't. So it made him look, you know, uninformed, which was not something any leader wants to have when it's someone on their team. And so when we had our next conversation, you know, he luckily was kind about it. But at the same time, it was so that was the reverse. Like I was the employee not saying, here's what I'm doing. I was like, I just I'm just gonna keep doing great. So you don't have to tell me anything, trying to basically avoid any conflict by being amazing at what I do. And it's still lack of communication backfired. So it can go. I guess the lesson here is if someone's in leadership, please communicate to your team how great they are. If even if they aren't don't need a lot of attention, let them know that's why. And then if you're someone you're going reporting up, make sure your person always knows the most about what you're doing over something outside of this, outside of the group. That was that's not fun. That's not a fun conversation anyway. So you've obviously had a really awesome mentor in that ear in those early years that helped you, but I do think there's something innate in you that just helped that you are able to see the potential, and there's something about you that really I just again, I think you're able to see resources really well that maybe other people don't. That's something that's very natural for you. So would you say that that's just something in you, or is that because of your parents? Like, where do you think that comes from? Where's the drive to To look for that in people because that is not a skill everyone, even if they had it, I don't think it's a skill they utilize.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

I think we have it, but we don't utilize it. And I'll tell you what what the secret is. I do a lot of listening and not a lot of talking. I am an introvert by nature. I could sit in a room and not talk and be pleasantly happy. And doesn't mean it, you know, I don't like the people that I'm around. I'm just okay sitting, watching, and listening. I do that quite frequently. And I had to learn early in my career, people thought I was unengaged because I didn't talk. I but I was listening. I was making mental notes of when I hear a conversation, okay. Well, then that means that that person is in need of X. How can I supply them with, you know, the resources for that? Or either, oh, oh, wait a minute, that person responded this way when someone approached them. Okay, so mental note. So taking all of those things, and then most importantly, we need to find out what's important to others. We sit down and we regurgitate all the things that matter to us and what you can do to help us, but we don't spend a lot of time finding out what's important to them. What if and when I was leading a direct team, I wanted to know what are your goals? Three years, five years, this year. How can I help you? Are you on the track of where you want to be? Are you happy? What makes you happy? And then actually making a note, and some people will say, Oh, Danina, this is way too much work. But making people feel heard and seen is work. Because I would just jot down little notes to myself to remember when I'm talking to someone to be able to engage them about some things that we've had. And of course, conversations that we've had, and of course, people, their eyes line up because they feel seen and heard. We all have that ability, but unfortunately, the society in which we live in it is so fast-driven, me, me, me, we don't take the time to pause. And I really think in the age of AI and fast results and all that the world is uh offering us, it's more important now than ever for us to pause and really have connections and conversations with individuals. It's it is so valuable for us to remain a humanity within a society. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Yes, I agree. I wish there was more humanity. That's what when I was reading through all of your website and your materials and listening to some of your podcasts. That's one of my favorite things that I'm hearing through your message is that you are directly talking to leaders in the you know, in the business world, and you are trying to help them bring in those soft skills and the people skills and how to like work with people and bring that humanity back and still succeed and move fast, but not lose sight of, like you're saying with AI, you know, it can it can make things go faster, but at the end of the day, anybody I work with that's a business owner, their biggest pain point is the people part, either the employees or the clients and the relationships they're in. And it it off you know leaks into family life as well because I'm helping people balance both. But that's the part I get most comments about. It's not my how do I not resume building or interviewing, those things exist, those are needed, but the core of what really matters most to people is relationships, and the listening part can be the hardest part for a lot of people when it's moving so fast. And as we mentioned before, our brains will fill in, right, with like the story. We'll tell ourselves the story about ourselves, about everybody else, and fine, like if there is any kind of insecurity, it'll just you know, just grow. So you were mentioning that like you're the person in the room that maybe isn't saying a lot. You were because you're processing, you're listening, you're so I love how God puts people back together and puts people in your life to help you learn lessons in this thing. That is one of the things. Even when I was an intern in college, one of the leaders had told me, as I'm in this group of like a bunch of interns, and I hadn't said a word. I was very quiet, and she mistakenly took that for lack of confidence, or that I was afraid to contribute. And I was like, at the time, I didn't really have the words to share with her, right? I didn't have the understanding, the awareness of what was going on. I now know through personality tests and different things, like that's just how I process. And I love that you said that that's something that you do as well. So knowing that there's probably people listening who also have that, or they're maybe the quiet leader. Have you come across that in your academy? And is there something that you've like seen that works to help people understand? Like, hey, I'm not in, I'm not invisible, I'm not silent because I have nothing to say. There are just different types of leaders and leadership, but at the same time, you do have to advocate for yourself. You do have to eventually speak up. So, what would be some of your advice on someone who's like you and that they're great at listening, but they haven't maybe developed their self-advocacy muscle yet?

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Well, number one, it's just a simple statement, just like I shared. I'll tell people I am an introvert by nature. I am an extrovert on demand. That means that I am really comfortable uh listening and observing. That's number one, letting people know that that disarms that. And then number two is choosing your moments because then you're in control of how you show up and when you show up. Say you're preparing for a meeting, and generally you don't talk, you listen and you observe. You want to pick a topic that is going to be discussed in that meeting that you're passionate about and that you want to share some insight on, or maybe it was from a prior meeting that you want to bring to uh the attention for this meeting. That means that you have some prep work done. You know exactly the points that you want to share. You also, while you're doing your research, you think about any type of uh adversity that you might face, someone's objecting objection, because if you can prepare for that, you feel more confident when it shows up, and most likely it will show up because life happens. When you're prepared and you choose the moment that you want to show up, it makes you more comfortable in showing up, and that it also creates a foundation for success when you happen not to be prepared and someone calls on you because you can reflect back on your past success and know that if you've done it once successfully, you have the ability and talents to do it successfully a second time and a third time and a fourth time.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I love that. I wish I would have had that advice earlier in my career. That would have saved me such heartache. I I mean, I when I was going for jobs, um, specifically back in telecom, I remember because I was in a position like after you met me, I was a temp, and then I kind of managed my way through multiple avenues of just trying to get my foot in the door. So I worked for lots of different teams. And the job that came to me at first, which I was just so grateful for, was completely against type for me. Um, it was a very analytical, it was a reporting position where I didn't get to speak with anybody, and though I'm introverted, like I'm more sales-minded, according to every personality test I've ever been given in a corporate world, uh, which I was always like, wait, what? No, I don't, but it's just who I naturally am. So I was in this like, you know, quiet environment where I didn't get to see anybody, which is why I the whole name of this podcast is called Cupcakes and Clarity, because I used to bake goods to try to get people to come and hang out near my cube and get out of their cubes and offices and just like talk and like connect. I was like, what is this world? Because I had come from the hospitality industry, which was like in your face and lots of action and I was forced interaction. I didn't have to work. This was constant. And so when I was in when I went for this position that was in marketing, where it would have a much bigger personality needed to, you know, they would have were looking for that at least. I was not the candidate that was gonna stand out, you know, like just based on if you just walked by me every day or you saw me in meetings. So I really love that you share that. And I yes, I mean, I managed to figure it out and stumble my way through it, and it was fine, but it would have been so much nicer to have had that awareness so much earlier in life. Okay, so one of the things that I uh wanted to talk to you about is that you you created this academy, this leadership academy. So you work with women, but now you also are hosting, you're putting on these events, the event that the women in tech event, what transitioned in like how did that become in into the picture with like the starting of an academy and then now creating this event? Like, what inspired that?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Actually, I think it's it's all a part of the same um goal, which is to help people be better leaders. And when we originally started, when Dark of the Linda Calvin started Indiana Women in Tech Week three years ago, we heard about it. Jen and I heard about it, and we said, oh, that's something we want to be involved in. And I was always looking for a connection to stay connected with Indiana, being born and raised in Northwest Indiana. And we hosted the first event, and we wanted to be able to help new and emerging leaders develop those skills so that they could be successful. Added bonus, it originally started. The focus was helping women develop and grow. And as I said before, my passion for helping women came from some of my insecurities and struggles as a woman, being a leader, uh, not having your voice heard, not having the confidence to show up boldly. And being able to give them the foundational work that they needed to be successful was very important. We came back and did it the second year. We're coming back again in September to do it the third year. So I don't see it necessarily as a shift. Everything that I do is very intentional. I have learned early on to stay in my wheelhouse. My wheelhouse is leadership development that may take on different facets and look differently, such as an event or a podcast or a workshop. But being able to do something that I'm passionate about, we have too little time to do stuff that doesn't fulfill us. And I love helping people grow and to develop. And it started in telecommunication because, as a part of what we did, we were also responsible for developing growing on teams. Yes, we did have a learning and development department, but as an individual manager, you went to a train the trainer session. So you learned the material and then you helped your team develop. And I after about the pandemic, I stepped back. I said, wait a minute. I have an opportunity during the pandemic to do something that I love and that I'm really good at, and that people used to pay me a lot of good money to do. And it's also fun. And I decided to bet on me, and that's when Atari Leadership Academy was launched. And I just started building on the skills that I had used unknowingly all that time with individuals on my team.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

So you've said two powerful things I want to touch on is when how did you become aware? Or was there a tool or was there something where you're like, I'm betting on me? How did you develop the knowledge that you're like, this is what I'm great at? This is what I want to move forward with. Like I've done all these different things. Was there like maybe like a pattern you had seen, or was it just a just a knowing? Like, what was it that kind of helped you figure that out?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

I think it's something that came over a course of time because I actually spent some time and I worked with a life coach, and we talked about mindset, and we talked about what truly brings you passion and what ignites you. And mine is helping people reach their goals, helping them figure out okay, what is it that I really need to do and how do I get there? Also, I started just to look back on conversations. What do people come to me and talk to me about and or ask me questions about? And I started to talking to other people. If you were looking at me and you said, hey, Janine is a fill in the blank and just engaging people in conversations, doing some self-reflection. And I came to realize how the people grow on and develop. That is what I'm passionate about. I used to hate the saying that if you find something you love, you'll never work a day in your life because I didn't identify with it. I hated when people said that. I was like, seriously, that doesn't make sense to me. Because I've done jobs that I was really good at, but they brought me no joy. And people say, Oh my goodness, you've got to be passionate. No, not necessarily. I have some God-given gifts and talents that allow me to do this effortlessly. But there is no passion behind it. And I wanted passion behind what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

Wow. That's amazing. I hope so many people hear this and just really, if nothing else, hear that message. And I know like they may be, you know, they don't know you, they don't know me, but this is something that I'm so happy that we're having this conversation because that is my the other piece that you said, the other um that was that really resonated with me is because it ignited my passion of there isn't a lot of time. And we can't change the amount of time we're being given. But living the way you want to live is so powerful when you know what am I like, what are your God-given gifts? Is that something you're passionate about? Or how do you how do you translate that into work that is passionate? Because I too don't necessarily love the the say the saying about, you know, you'll never feel like you work a day in your life, because it hadn't resonated with me either. And even in even in doing what I love, which is coaching, and I know this is like what where I was being guided, and it's like my skill sets like naturally I can look back now and be like, yeah, I should be doing this even longer, a lot longer ago. It was just, but you have to, you know, you get there when you're supposed to get there. But it's just so many people don't ever think about those things. They don't get the chance to have that awareness. It's a lot of like climbing and going uphill and going you know, because they don't see that there's another option. And that's why I love that you're sharing your story because you did have a very traditional path early, and you still utilize all that. You did not just burn it all down and just say, okay, all those years of experience, and I'm just gonna totally ignore all of that and go this. You're like, no, what were the pieces and parts that made sense that I was great at and that also I loved? And how do I translate that into doing something? Right? You just pivoted in a sense, you took hold of it and you pivoted it in a new direction. And I think that's a very powerful message message for people to hear and and see an example of that, and how you how you've taken all that experience, and then now you're doing something you really love. The other piece was the part about not loving that saying is because as a business owner, there's gonna always there's it's just like the the work-life balance thing. It's kind of a myth in the sense that it will always be 50-50 balance, but to say that it doesn't exist at all is also not correct because there's gonna be times where it will feel that way, but there's just to hold yourself to such a standard would be unrealistic, just the same as you're with like if you do what you love, you'll never feel like you worked a day in your life. Well, there's gonna be days that are gonna feel more like work, but it feels more purposeful, and you've had more moments of joy. Would you feel that's a fair statement? Yes, it is. So I'm like, follow your passion, but also realize, you know, it's not every day is gonna be rainbows and sunshine, so that's okay too. Like, that's all right. Okay, so as we are coming to the end here, I love for all my guests to share a cupcake moment because that is something that I do in every episode, and it's finding a moment of joy or clarity or connection in the chaos or everyday moments of life. Do you have anything that's recently happened or a story that comes to mind that's your own cupcake moment?

SPEAKER_00 39:57

Well, one thing that comes to mind is I'm a doer. I like agendas, I like to plan, and that whether it be my personal life, my professional life, go, go, go. And you get caught up in the task. And one of the aha moments, the cupcake moments, was the ability to say no and full stop. And what I mean by that is not taking on another task or an assignment or just saying no, thank you. And I say that because we as women tend to think that we are here to solve the world's problems, all of the world's problems. And we have a tendency, and this doesn't apply to everyone, so I don't want anyone saying, oh no, not everyone thinks that way, but we have a tendency to want to solve and help. It's our nature. And I have found myself overextending myself, wanting to be there for everyone, wanting to say yes to everything. And there was an opportunity presented to me to do some wonderful work, but it didn't align with where I was going and the path that I had laid out for myself professionally. And normally I would say, sure, I'll do it and I'll be able to take on that. But I paused and I said, you know what, this is a great opportunity, and I believe in the work you're doing, but I simply don't have the capacity to fulfill this role for you. Is there any other way that I can support your vision, but not through this method? And that was my it's a reminder that we don't always have to have be the answer to everyone's question or the solution to everyone's problem. It is okay to pause, evaluate, and say no.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

I love that. Say no, full stop. Full stop. I absolutely love it. That is great advice. I again hope a lot of people are hearing that too, because that is so true that people, women who are high, high achievers, high capacity, high performing, whatever word you want to, you know, phrase you want to use with it, we are the doers and the people who are used to carrying a lot of responsibility. We also have to be okay with delegating and or just saying no. It doesn't always mean right, like we hear about the delegation piece, and as a leader, you need to delegate, you need to do it in a very effective way. But we rarely get to hear the message it's okay to just say no. Period. Thank you for that. It was like a mic drop moment. Like, love that. Absolutely love that. Okay, well, I just want to thank you so much for being on the episode today. This was such a full circle moment for me to be able to talk to one of my earliest mentors, even if you weren't even even intentionally showing up as my mentor that day. You were, and and you did, and you to feel seen when I was definitely not feeling seen or utilized, and I was hungry to be utilized. I'm like, so I'm gonna use me. And you did and saw me, and I felt like I was valued for the first time in that job, and also the advice to like learn how to care for myself. And there was so much that you shared in such a small amount of time, and I'm so grateful that you are back in my world and that there's this connection, and I hope it can grow and we can stay connected. Um, we definitely will in September when we are at the fueling your future event. So, on that note, before we say goodbye, you know, how can people connect with you? Where can they find you? And what are some things maybe you want to highlight?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Thank you so much. First of all, it blesses me to hear you say the impact that I had on your life because oftentimes we don't know how we are impacting others. So to be able to come full circle and to know that it's a blessing to me. So thank you very much for that. Uh, regarding how can people reach out, there's two if you're looking to learn more about the fueling your future event that's coming up in Indianapolis on September the 15th, you can visit learningaboutyou.com and click on events and you will see all of the information for sponsors, attendees, and how you can participate. That's the way to connect. Seeing us in September. If you're looking for workshop development, workforce development, uh leadership programming, you would visit attart leadershipacademy.com. You'll find all of the information and you'll find a contact form. And of course, you can find me on LinkedIn at Daneen Atart and Attart Leadership Academy also has a business page.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

I am so grateful. This is an amazing, amazing time. What a good time to be able to spend with you. I thank you. And I will put all of that information in the show notes. So if anybody needs it, it'll be in the show notes. They can go find it. Daneen, thank you so much for being with me today. And I can't wait to connect with you again.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

My pleasure. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Cupcakes and Clarity. If today's conversation inspired you and you'd like even more tips and strategies tailored to your life, go to LisaCarinelli.com forward slash reports for more self-guided. If you're ready for personal support, help you navigate Western Media Back. I'd love to meet you. Head over to LisaCarinelli.com and schedule your free competition. New episode drop every Tuesday. So be sure to follow and subscribe whatever you like and button. If you enjoyed today's episode, it would mean so much if you shared it with a friend or leave it with video. Until next time, prepare to create more clarity, confidence that joined your life, one update at a time.