Dear Liz

Liz answers listener questions 

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Original music for the podcast written and performed by Liz Pryor and Augie Cal
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a little bit of a different kind of a reach inside to who you are. It's a tall order to ask yourself to fight for you. Hi there. I'm Liz Pryor, and this is Just Saying the Podcast. What we try and do here is help people navigate the difficulties and challenges we face in our everyday lives. It just so often seems that our biggest stressors, some of the hardest times that we face, are typically with the people that we care about the most. So that is usually the focus here. And with me, I have Laura Sullivan.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hello. How are you, babe? I am in your neck of not your woods now, but woods you grew up in. I am an hour outside of Chicago. Love that. Are you wait? She's doing a road trip, right? Oh yeah.

unknown 1:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Oh yeah. Eating too many Doritos and those gosh. I mean, it's like it just road trip means junk food, I guess. Equals. Yeah, it does. I mean, I could give you every fast food restaurant from coastal Connecticut to Chicago. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

And we've been a lot of cows. I've counted a lot of cows. What you forget when you're not in the car and you take airplanes is really what's going on are these little towns and diners and it's just great.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

Small town America. Yeah. Oh yeah. You guys notice that Laura does a whole lot more than Liz. Like every time we talk, Laura's like in Mexico. She's on a roach. What are you doing, Liz? Working.

unknown 1:40

You don't want to come feel bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

I do feel super bad. This girl, this Liz, this Liz Pryor person, she's on her own speed because she does not stop working.

unknown 1:55

Work.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

You're a worker bee. I love that about you. But you do need a vacation. I mean, I want you to just really take one.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I have a little bit of a voice that says I'm lazy. Oh, so there's so many people around me telling me how busy I am and how hard I'm working. I I have to genuinely tell you that I don't take that in. But in the case of the podcast, I'm gonna take it. This is working.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yes. Be yes. And you know, I don't think everyone out there knows exactly what you do besides what they're hearing. And I just get to sit here and, you know, be be cute. Co-plunging.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

I got a lot of people saying, is that what she does? She co-plunges. And now she's on her Midwestern road trip. So today is um an unconventional episode. We're gonna do listener questions. I so appreciate the people who write in. I really do. And there's no possible way that I can get to all of them on the air, but I really do try and get back to everybody who writes me. So I thought it would be cool, not even just basing off of all the episodes, but just questions that came in. I chose the ones that I felt might apply to other people.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

You know what I'm saying, Laura? Yeah, I you know what? I love this idea when you told me about it because I think that a large majority of these questions, although they're personal, they have a lot of universal in them. I think there's a lot of people that haven't asked them but are thinking them, love it.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

There was an inordinate amount of mail that came in around the friendship ending episode. And I think next season we're gonna do an entirely new episode because people just seem to be super interested. And I also want to put it out there that if anybody is going through a friendship ending or knows someone who is and might want to come on and share anonymously, of course, that can always just be super helpful for the people listening. So any initiators or any receivers out there, just know to email me. Let's hit the first question of the day. All right. Okay. We got several in this category: husbands and partners of women going through the ending of a friendship.

unknown 4:04

Okay?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

You have to let that sink in for a second. Okay. Mm-hmm. So here's the first question I want to read. It is subjected in the email subject. What happens when your wife's best friend blindsidedly dumps her after 25 years, and the husbands still want to play golf. Wow. Okay. Okay. So here's here's his letter. Dear Liz, I was recently on a road trip with my wife. We together listened to your friendship ending episode. My wife was dumped hard without a word by her best friend. You know the recipe. As you say, it's brutal. I am great friends with the husband of this friend. At first I thought, let's just let our wives get through this and do what they need, and we can do our own thing: golf, beers, just as before. But no, this is an absolute no-go for my wife. She is basically asking me not to be friends with her friend's husband at all, as though it's a package deal. When over the last 10 years he has become one of my best pals. What am I supposed to do here?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

That's a good question. Oh, yeah. Wow. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Well, I would call this the ripple effect. And I've seen it in female friendship ending with other girlfriends in the group. When two women fall out, I will get letters from other women that hang out with both of them and say, I don't know what to do here. I feel sort of split in the middle. So the first thing I want to say, I would say kudos for caring enough to write in and ask. I kind of love that.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Right? That's brave. That's brave. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I think it's very thoughtful. So here's what I have to say about this question. I feel like there are three choices here. The first choice is to agree and ally with your wife. She's telling you you cannot see your friend. You may not do it. So a lot of men will want to just avoid conflict and abide what she's asking. My worry with that is that often does and will lead to some sort of resentment. And there you have it, the female friendship blowout rippling into this man's friendship with his buddy. The other possibility is that a man says, I don't care. I don't care what you think. I'm playing golf with him. There we go. Another ripple into the marriage. Don't like it. Right? I think it would be a good idea to pick a moment in time with your wife where emotions are not lit. Preferably you haven't been talking about the ended friendship, and she's just in a regular emotional state. What you could do is bring it up and say, I know that you originally said this is how you felt, but hear me out. I was thinking together we might be able to come up with some sort of way that I could see my buddy and you feel comfortable because I need you to 1000% know that I get it. You need to feel that I have your back. I hope he's listening carefully. Because what matters most is that she believes that she is the priority and that he has her back. Once he effectively empathizes, he could say, maybe there's a world in which he and I have a friendship that doesn't have anything to do with the two of you. It wasn't like that before, but it could possibly be like that now. And and and to make you really feel okay and comfortable with this, maybe you could share with me what kind of boundaries you need for me to play golf or have a beer with him. And she might say, being a woman myself, don't freaking talk about me to him. Don't bring my name up, whatever she might need. Or, you know, don't tell me about it when you get home. But I think number one is she needs to feel heard. Like you need to get it. You need to understand that this is this is really painful for her. And if you guys can move this forward in a way that when push comes to shove, you choose her. But you can go play golf, you can go have a beer. This is my best shot at something like this possibly working. I actually had a conversation with one of these men who said, You don't know my wife.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Well, I have a to follow I have my own question here. Like, do you suggest when you say boundaries, like that she can say three, you know, three times a month? Or you can see you want not that kind of boundary.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking um, if you're gonna be pals with him, right? Because you know, everybody needs to give a little.

unknown 9:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

So I I understand how how wrecking this is for us, but at the same time, you have a husband you love, you prioritize him no matter what. I think it would be super fair to say, please don't talk about the friendship. If you're gonna be with him, you guys are gonna do your own thing, it's you two. It's just it's almost like parenting. Have have his wife be a part of making the new decision about how he is gonna be in his friend's life. But it's not down to when and how you can see him. Right. Right? Just no one's I have your back. I'm wishing him luck. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

What's our question number two there, lady? Hi, Liz. I don't know if you can answer this. I've been married 10 years. My question is, how do you leave someone who isn't a bad person?

SPEAKER_01 10:05

How do you leave someone who isn't a bad person? Isn't a bad person. Yeah, this is super interesting and surprising to me that um I've heard this question before. We will be one day doing an entire episode on marriage and divorce. I being a divorced woman myself, yes, I think it's fair to say that as a culture, when a marriage ends, people tend to think there's a villain. There's a villain in a divorce. Good guy, bad guy. I was thinking about it, and I think that we kind of are programmed when there is an ending of a marriage to imagine that someone did something super bad. There doesn't have to be a villain in the ending of a marriage.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Right. But but the guilt, it sounds like there's a lot of guilt here.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Right. So this is the kind of marriage ending that actually takes a different kind of strength. You see, maybe the villain idea works because if you're married to a villain, you have to get out. So there's kind of this urgency to it, and certainly a justification. And whatever you gotta do to wrap yourself around it to get through it. However, in this woman's case, I love it that she would write in and say this because sometimes the feelings do fade, and sometimes people change and they don't grow together. So here's what I would say to her: you have to try and remove and push the noise of divorce out of your head. And this is a little bit of a different kind of a reach inside to who you are. It's a it's a tall order to ask yourself to fight for you. If you know you're not in love anymore and you know you don't want to be in the marriage, very difficult, particularly for women, to choose yourself. And that is from where you're gonna have to draw the strength to go forward. And there are so many positive things about this that you don't have to fight and you don't have to tell people wicked ass stories, and you don't, you know, you don't, you don't have a villain here. Unfortunately, there might be times when you feel like the villain because he's a perfectly nice man and you don't want to remain married to him. And this is where the inner work comes, which is you're not a villain. You feel what you feel, you have to find the strength and push through it. And I I applaud her and wish her luck.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah. All right. So you've got one? I do. Thank you for the opportunity to send a question. Regarding all the talk in the media about adult kids and the disappointments with their parents, I'm wondering if I can comment on my own feelings of disappointment with my adult children. Both of them are not only ungrateful, but they're expectant, as if I'm to be at their beck and call all the time. I am not worried they will go no contact. I am worried that they are not the thoughtful people I'd hoped I'd raised. I feel a lot of resentment percolating. They are grown now. Isn't it time for kids to give back to be helpful and considerate? At my wit's end here, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

I mean, the anger, the anger reson, that letter, it's it's a lot of resentment and anger in there.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah. Wow. I know, interesting. You know, it's funny because when I get a question like this, I immediately go to, I want to help, and I want to change, and I want to help her fix it. But this is one of those questions that the the only real place we have to work from is from her side of this. She has grown kids. They're baked, they're baked and done. Yeah. Um, you know, children, young and old, it doesn't really matter. We all do and have done more for them than anyone in our lives. That is just the nature of the parental beast.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, and then it just doesn't stop.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

No, it doesn't stop. And clearly it hasn't stopped for this woman.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

Um, so this is not, in my opinion, a fix that requires a conversation. You know me, I'm I'm master miss communication, but no, a conversation is not what comes to mind here. So I had to dissect the note a bit. She mentions here the kids are expectant. They expect her to be at their beck and call. And I'm thinking maybe therein lies something that she can do pretty immediately.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Right. But all of us know the feeling of not wanting to say no to our kids. And as they grow, it doesn't get any easier. I struggle with it. Can I have the car? No. No, I'm going to pick a ball.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Well, it's almost harder to be honest, as they get older.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

It is. Because they're grown people. Right. So here's here's the thought I was having. I think it's it's imaginable for this woman to wrap herself around shifting her own behavior for the moment. This is not going to happen in a night or a week. I don't know exactly what they're asking or expecting of you, but it sounds like you are delivering. Mm-hmm. We have a responsibility to ourselves. Like she can complain, we can all complain about them, but you really have to look at our part. If you're at their beck and call, you need to slow it down. You need to shift it a little bit with not any confrontation or drama. You simply practice the idea of saying, no, that doesn't work for me. Like even practice it when they're not around. Just practice it. I think she created this problem. She may have um perpetuated it by continuing to being at their beck and call. It's the only thing she gives me that she has a part of. Now I don't know what she means when she's saying thoughtlessness, but there is a dynamic that's been created between these two adult kids and this mother. This is what happens when you don't address it along the way, you find yourself percolating with a bomb of resentment. So the practice of changing your own behavior in the hopes that the behavior of the kids might change. And then eventually the dynamic changes. Eventually, a conversation could be had, perhaps, around this. But I think at the moment, make some goals to learn how to slowly shift your yeses to no's. I don't know what she means by so ungrateful and thoughtless. If that means the kids aren't saying thank you or maybe offering something, I think the answer to this woman is to shift her own behavior as a beginning. I'd love to hear back from her, actually. If she begins to shift a little bit, right? Because it sounds like she could possibly have done a great job with her kids and that they only behave this way with her. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah. She's she's percolating, that's for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I've got one. All right. Hi, Liz. I listened to the episode with you and your daughter and was reminded, unfortunately, of how I have lost a bond with my daughter that I had when she was younger. She's grown up now and living a good life. I don't have the kind of relationship where we talk and laugh. I want to have that, but I don't. Is it possible to try and rebuild something with her now? She is in her 30s. Any thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Um You know, I feel for her, I I think that's a hard kind of longing to have. To long to sort of laugh and be open and honest with your kid. Um The thing is, I think when kids grow up, how connected they are to us becomes their choice. Very, very different from when they were little. So this is another situation where I'm not sure sitting down and talking about it immediately would be the most effective. And with a lot of thought to this, I think the daughter needs to feel maybe comfortable and at ease with her emotions and her truth when she is around her mom. It's possible, I think, with baby steps over time, how you can help this happen is to become more vulnerable with her, yourself as a mother, and possibly take inventory on yourself. Imagine you from your daughter's point of view, and maybe find some of the places that you could make some adjustments. Because I think moms get in this habit of being a certain way, a certain feeling to a kid. And if you want to change that, then you have to change your own behavior. In other words, if if you want to feel closer and more bonded, then you would have to open up, right? Right. It's difficult to move a dynamic, but I think it's possible.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Right. I mean, you know, as a friend of yours, I will say when she said she listened to the episode with you and your daughter, it's very clear that you and your daughter have a real genuine organic friendship in your relationship. And I think it it is can be intimidating to other parents. But what what you're saying is it's over a course of time that these that you can work at this.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

I think so. I think, you know, emotional trust is it's I think it's huge in every relationship, but particularly between parent and child. It doesn't just, it's not just automatic because we spawn them. It's not. Just because they're our kid doesn't mean we get to have a certain type of relationship. I think remember that we being vulnerable, honest, begets them being open and I think of the amazing base from which we all have to work. Because when they were little, um, so many of our memories are the connected, bonded memories. And then they grow up. And let's just say there's more people than this one lady out there hoping for the dynamic to move into something a little more, I would say, connected, right? Right. We always have to look at are our daughters thinking we are going to criticize? Are they thinking we're gonna judge? Are they thinking we're gonna have an opinion that they don't want to hear? If you're not willing to go in there and look at that, then this is probably not going to change. We have to. And then if you feel just a tiny bit of a shift where it's like, oh, she's opening up and telling me this, maybe there's at some time after the behavior change, there's a place where a mom could say, I love having these conversations with you. You guys like emotional trust is earned over time. We don't just get it because you're a certain way. Right? Here's a a big keynote. If you open up a conversation and your child is revealing something to you emotionally or honestly, try really hard to actively listen and let them feel that you're listening. Sounds so dumb, but so important.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Um no, that's that's really I love that.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

I love that. I'd love for her to have a conversation where if it feels right to open up vulnerability for people, it's never bad to say, like, especially if it's your kid, I'm thinking about ways that I can support you. See, if we appear open to hearing what it is they have to say about us. So if you did say to your kid, you know, I do think about it. I think about ways that I can support you that I'm unaware of. It could really trigger them to say, Well, you know what, mom, you could blah, blah, blah, or you could not, blah, blah, blah. Right? It's really a matter of us feeling okay and comfortable with getting down to the truthful nitty-gritty of who we are. Most people don't like this, Laura. They do not like it.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

No, it's not comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. It's not comfortable. Um, well, that's good. Very good. Okay, I've got one more here. There you go. All right. Hi, Liz. Thank God these are anonymous. I think I'm lonely. I know I am, and I shouldn't be. I know a lot of people. I have friends, my family, they're loving. I just feel so separate from everyone around me. I'm a person who is there for people a lot, but I feel sadly empty. Any suggestions?

SPEAKER_01 24:06

You know, it's interesting. The first thing I'm going to say is I'm sorry. It is. It is a very specific kind of lonely this woman is talking about. Because you know, from the outside, yeah, her life looks full. You have people, you have friends, you even have people who lean on you. And um I think maybe instead of asking yourself why you are lonely, you could maybe ask yourself, where in my life am I not letting people in? Because there's people all around her, and there are clearly people who love her. I think it's important to understand the why when we don't let people in. This is a, you know, real connection and real bonding, which is kind of what we went over with with the happiness expert. It does require a kind of a risk, you know, letting someone see past the competent, pleasant version of who you are and allowing them into what's actually going on in your life, which could be as small as telling a friend that you've been feeling a bit off, right? This woman sounds to me like someone who is not sharing her full real self with people. And I think she needs to get down to the reason why that would be. Sometimes, you know, people don't really know what or why they're doing what they're doing. Right. Or maybe she's having feelings that she doesn't like and even she doesn't want to think about it or talk about it, right? Um I think that loneliness is such a broad term. Well, most of us think of it. We think of like someone who doesn't have a lot of people around them. I'm very intrigued with this listener's loneliness. It is different. It's come in before, and I really want to tap on her to possibly consider finding the reason. Is it because you want to appear a certain way? Are you one of these people who doesn't want people to think you're unhappy or that you have a bad day or a bad stretch? Right?

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Like a facade that she's walking around with.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Right, right, right. That's interesting. I don't think we need more people in our lives to feel better. I think that what we really need are just a few people we can 100% be ourselves with and to. Right? Oh, you need, yeah, you're right. Yeah, so so maybe she could um she could practice with certain friends, whoever you pick. Practice being open. And you know, it's funny, Laura. I mean, let's if if we were to do tests to the people around us, you know, when I was younger, I remember thinking, well, I'll just never talk about this to my boyfriend and see if he ever asks me, see if he's interested enough. I think a lot of people think that that other people don't ask them enough about themselves. They don't care enough to remember things that we tell them. I definitely would plea with this listener to not get in the trap of saying to yourself, okay, well, I got through an entire part, I got through an entire weekend without a single person asking me a single thing about me. If you want to talk about things that are going on in your life, you also have to offer it. Think about pulling a little bit of the blanket off on who you are and try opening up more. I think that this feeling of this unique kind of loneliness might start to fade. I hope so. Nice. Thank you, Laura. This one I really liked.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

I can't wait to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Hey Liz, I'm having an issue with a few of my friends feeling it's okay to weigh in on my grown kids who are not married or having children. What the heck with this? This is all people ever ask me. Why is that? What's an answer to this that I can shut people up? I love that question. I feel strongly about this sort of unconscious habit that people have of imagining everybody wants their life. I could write an entire book on this. Your next book. I um I really don't think that this is malintended. I want my listener to hear this. Honest to God, I don't think they're judging. I think they're caught up in their little bubble of a world. It's very grandparenty. Honestly, you know, these little angels just fill people's lives up and they just start talking and saying, you know, is your daughter married? Is your son married? Are you here's here's my advice. You ready? I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

I'm ready. All yours.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Well, should we go off a tiny bit on this presumption that people, good people, assume that we want their lives? Mm-hmm. That's a quite an assumption. You know what I'm saying? A little narcissistic. I mean, I I don't know if it's it's it's just completely clueless. Like just because you like it and you have it, and this is what your goals were, does not mean that those are mine. It's very narrow-minded.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

I love your, I love, I love your, I mean, and I'm not a grandparent, so but I, you know, I I have been exposed to the over enthusiastic grandparents.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

I'm fine with seeing the pictures. Um but what this woman has written into us here, I have felt a version of this before. And what I'm gonna suggest that she do, it's it's one thing when someone comes in and they want to share the joy of their life, but then when they project it over to you, like when are you gonna get to experience what I'm experiencing right now? Another wicked over-the-top presumption. I say to gracefully cut the person off right as they're asking, if your daughter or your son are married, and say, you know what? I have constant check-ins with all of my kids about doing what they feel is gonna work for their life. The last thing I want for my kids is to feel the pressure of society or the culture or the I should be doing this. I really, no matter what I want in the world, I do not want that for my kids. So I say step out way in front of it before they can even get there and tell your friend that this is what you tell your children, which will stop your friend from pushing on you. And, you know, I have argued with several of my dear friends who have said, Are you kidding? I do the opposite. I say the sooner you have grandchildren, the sooner you get married. And I don't know if it's me, Liz Pryor, this, you know, closet rebel. Right. I really want for my children, and I will advocate for this, that they not feel pressure from people to do anything with their lives other than what their hearts want them to do. And I mean it. I want this listener to get in front of it before the person can go on any further with how many children your children don't have, or anything that they comment in about our kids. I like to get ahead of it and say, oh no, you know what I tell them, don't worry about that at all. No, college isn't for everybody, whatever it is. I just, yeah. I like to get ahead of it.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

I'm love, I'm loving the getting ahead.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

Did you know that in two weeks from today we'll drop our last episode of the season?

SPEAKER_00 32:31

It's it's it's unbelievable to me. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yep. Our last episode is entitled Living with a Secret. And I'm hoping it can speak to people who are or have lived with any version of holding something important inside about who they are. Um, I wrote an entire book on a secret, a book called Look at You Now, and I thought I could not only bring that experience of holding the secret for so long, but also the experience of telling it, which might be of service to two people, right? You guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the listeners writing in with their issues because it gives all of us a moment to think about the things that might improve our lives, right, Laura?

SPEAKER_00 33:22

Yes, totally. It did it it sort of makes the clock tick, you know. It's making it all happen. And I love it.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

I love it. Um so remember, if you're struggling with any of the messiness in life, go on through anything that you want to share that you'd like us to break down here. Just email me at just saying with Liz, just saying S-A-Y-I-N with Liz at Gmail, or DM me, or get a hold of me on Facebook or any way that you can. And I think that's it, Laura. Thank you. This is just saying, saying goodbye for now.