You Don’t Have to Hate Your Job: Rethinking Work, Leadership & Management

What if hating your job isn’t inevitable — and the problem isn’t you? A conversation about work, leadership, and why people leave managers, not jobs.

Join me as I sit down with Jill Parish, a leadership facilitator and organizational development expert who has spent her career helping people rethink what work is supposed to feel like.

Jill’s path spans HR, healthcare, higher education, and executive leadership development — including years designing and leading programs for physicians and senior leaders. Today, she runs her own firm focused on helping organizations build healthier workplaces through better leadership, communication, and self-awareness.

Our conversation explores why so many people feel disengaged at work, how leadership and management are often misunderstood, and why relationships — not titles or org charts — are the real drivers of job satisfaction.

This is an honest, grounded conversation about work, leadership, and how we might build careers — and cultures — that don’t require constant burnout or resignation.

You’ll Learn:

⭐ The difference between leadership and management (and why it matters)
⭐ Why influence and relationships matter more than hierarchy
⭐ How self-awareness changes the way teams function
⭐ What actually makes people stay, grow, and feel fulfilled at work

Key Insights:

Leadership Isn’t About Titles:
You don’t need direct reports to be a leader. Leadership shows up in how you communicate, build trust, and influence the people around you — in work and in life.

Why People Leave Managers, Not Jobs:
Most workplace dissatisfaction isn’t about the work itself. It’s about feeling unseen, unsupported, or unclear — and better leadership can change that.

Work Is Relational:
Job satisfaction has far more to do with relationships, clarity, and culture than the technical work someone is hired to do.

Self-Awareness Changes Everything:
Understanding your strengths and how you show up helps reduce conflict, improve communication, and build stronger teams.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] – Introduction and why work doesn’t have to feel miserable
[00:02:00] – Meeting through leadership development and facilitated learning
[00:04:00] – Jill’s path from HR to leadership and organizational development
[00:07:00] – Discovering leadership development as a career
[00:12:00] – Why people don’t leave jobs — they leave managers
[00:15:00] – Leadership vs. management: different skill sets
[00:18:00] – Why clarity is one of the most overlooked leadership tools
[00:20:00] – Leadership beyond hierarchy and org charts
[00:24:00] – Launching her own firm and redefining success
[00:30:00] – Self-awareness, strengths, and workplace relationships
[00:35:00] – What fulfillment at work actually looks like
[00:48:00] – Building a legacy through better leadership and culture

Resources and Links:

Find host Kristin Belden on LinkedIn or at BeldenStrategies.com
Sign up for more insights and conversations at BeldenStrategies.com/newsletter

Connect with Jill Parish on LinkedIn
Find out more about her leadership facilitation and organizational development work: ThinkDev

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, follow the show, and leave a review. And if you’re interested in more conversations about work, leadership, and building careers that don’t burn you out, join my newsletter at BeldenStrategies.com/newsletter.

Transcript

Speaker: [00:00:00] Welcome back to kind of a big deal. Today's episode is a fun one. Jill Parrish is someone who has spent years helping people work better together, not in a buzzy corporate way, but in a very human practical one. She's a leadership facilitator and organizational development consultant who helps leaders and teams communicate better, navigate, change, and truly enjoy the work they're doing.

We talk about what leadership looks like beyond titles, why struggling with poor management can be the true root of job dissatisfaction, and how self-awareness can quietly reshape the way you lead and show up. We also get into the reality of building a career that evolves alongside real life, not separate from it.

It's honest, thoughtful, and genuinely useful. Let's get into it.

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Speaker 4: Hi Jill. Hi Kristen. How are you? I'm so good, and I'm just so excited to have you here. I am. Like I wanna tell everybody like, buckle up, get [00:01:00] ready. That's like a lot of pressure. No, no, because we were laughing like. You, you make me laugh, first of all, like you're just a fun person to be around and I think that just comes across in, in every room that you show up in.

So no pressure. You just get to be your amazing self. So, okay, I'm in that. I get through that. Yes. Good. So Jill and I met because she facilitated the book ends of a leadership program that I just went through here in Sacramento. She kicked us off at our retreat at the beginning of last year, wrapped us up during our last class day in December, and if you've.

Ever been through a guided conversation as part of the company that you're in, and you're picturing yawning the whole way through and wondering what you're even talked about for eight hours when it's over. I want you to now picture the [00:02:00] exact opposite like it is. It was a completely different experience.

I've been through so many facilitated conversations in the past in my previous corporate life, and. You are one of a kind. She has like a true, true gift. I've never had so much fun while learning so much, not only about myself, but also how to work with the people that I was about to be in the trenches with for a year.

She has a way of getting you to reflect and to dig deep, but in a way that doesn't feel intimidating. I think sometimes self-reflection can feel a little bit like tender. And a little vulnerable even when you're not around a bunch of other people that you don't know. Right. Even when it's by yourself and you're not loud.

Yes. Yeah. Um, and I actually ended up learning so much from what she's shared, and I've shared this with her prior to our conversation today, but it actually helped shift some of the thinking that I was doing around how I was [00:03:00] building my own business. Which I'm sure we'll get into at some point. But I think that just speaks to the real power, um, that Jill has in this work.

And it's not easy work, but when it's being held by someone like Jill, it feels like a total joy. So I'm just so stoked for you to be here. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with me. Good. Thank you. Could you just follow me around and do that introduction for me everywhere I go? Could I give you my calendar and you can just like jump at and introduce me that way?

Happy to, absolutely. Excellent, excellent, excellent. It's called a Kristen in your pocket. I love that you can market that there's something to that. Well, I will say years ago when I was still living in San Francisco, a friend of mine and I went to an ice cream shop and they had these key chains that were a Mr.

Tea in your pocket. So it was like this little key chain. You press the button, it's like a pity the fool, another one. So my kids found it recently and it [00:04:00] still works, and I was, oh my gosh. Dying of laughter. Because, because it's still funny. I love that. I love that. It's still, still funny. Maybe we need a little, a little Kristen in our pocket.

Yes. It's like, you're doing great. Keep it up. Let's go. Yes. You're your own self.

It's true. So fun. All of it. Yes. Okay. We, we just figured out what we're collaborating on this year. Yeah. I know. This is so good. I could safely say I've never done a project with like a. Toy or a figurine. So I'd be like, this is good. This is, I've never done product before, actually, now that I think about it.

So yeah, whole other beast that us to figure out. Yeah, I'm in, I'm in. So as I was sharing, you know, you're this incredible facilitator and I was, you know, reflecting on this conversation before we jumped in, and this is not work that you just kind of randomly fall into for the most part for folks, maybe that was true for you, but.[00:05:00] 

Would love for you to share maybe a little bit about how long you've been doing this kind of work and. What led you to it? Yeah. Um, absolutely. No, you know, nobody, um, kindergarters aren't like, I wanna be an organizational development consultant when I grow up, like in their, you know, like first day of school thing.

Speaker 3: And that's not a thing. Um, it should be. It should be. I know, I know. And that is like another side note, but how do we tell younger people about like what kinds of careers that are out there? Because there's so many careers, but Yes. That'll be part two. Part two. That of that conversation. Part two. Yeah, exactly.

So I started in HR and I was in HR for a small business for years, and I didn't like it. I liked the people, but I was doing like, you know, open enrollment and workers' comp and that kind of stuff, like all payroll, all of the like. Shout out, ready, shout, call the hr, our HR heroes because it's necessary. But it was sucking my soul.[00:06:00] 

But at the time, I had a really young child. I had a 1-year-old, well, I was pregnant and I had a 1-year-old and a baby, and it was really flexible, right? So I could, for the most part, come in late if I needed to. And so I stuck with it because of the flexibility. And honestly, I'd probably on some level still be there.

But my husband decided he wanted to go to dental school, and so this was sort of a long, we're high school sweethearts. We've been together for a million years. And so he kind of always wanted to go to dental school, but he really decided after our first son was born, that's what he wanted to his life.

And so when our first son was three and a half. And our middle son was six weeks old. We packed up and moved to San Francisco to student housing, and we lived in the city for four years while my husband was middle school. Don't worry, this is coming back around to like, it's good. It's good. Love it. I'm with you.

Speaker 4: I'm [00:07:00] on your journey. Okay, thank you. So while we lived in the city, I stayed home for about nine months, which frankly was not a good time for me. I'm not a, a good stay-at-home mom, but that's another. Again, we could have so many sessions, Kristen, like, we could do this all day. I tell you it's true. And so after a little bit, I ended up getting a job at UCSF and my secondary degree is actually in higher education leadership.

Speaker 3: So I thought I was getting a job in higher education. I was really getting a job in healthcare and I just didn't know that at the time. But my job was a, um, coordinator for physician leadership development programs, which is like crazy niche in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Something that I didn't even really realize was a thing until this, and I was, I mean, maybe like three weeks into the job and I was like, oh, this is what I need to be doing for my life.

This is what I'm meant to do. And so we basically ran longitudinal leadership development [00:08:00] programs for physicians, both internally at UCSF and externally for other, you know, Kaiser and Dignity and all its other organizations. And I loved it, and I got promoted quickly and I was a program manager and I was running the different programs and I really, really loved it.

And really kind of, that's where I honed in on my kind of big passion in life is leadership development. Facilitation is part of that because that's how I, how I helped deliver the skillset. But supporting leaders is really the thing that I'm most passionate about. And so. My husband graduated and it was, uh, actually a really hard decision.

Do we stay in the city or do we come back here? We live in the greater Sacramento area where my family's from, and we decided to move back, uh, because our community is here. Even though I really love the Bay, I still really love the bay. Same. Yeah, I know. So that it took a little bit of convincing. He was convinced I wasn't.

Um, and we, we have led some parallel in our lines, [00:09:00] some parallel lines. Okay. Yes, yes, yes. Same. Yeah, same. So, came back here, got a job at Adventist Health, which is a large health system headquartered in Roseville, California. Multiple hospitals, a lot of rural health clinics. So really trying to help people who don't have a lot of access to care.

Um, sort of a long story there, but ultimately they hired me to run their physician leadership development programs. Moved into a training and development manager position, was really kind of in learning and development for the whole organization. Then COVID hit, I don't know if you remember COVID and um.

And, you know, healthcare was, it was tough to be in healthcare and COVID and there was a lot of different things and we, you know, went home like everybody else and started working at home. And I think slowly I was, first of all, I just know now about myself. I don't love working at home, but at the time I felt like I needed a change.

And so I went to uc, Davis, um. [00:10:00] Where I was at, like the best position in the world where I oversaw again, a lot of leadership development programs, a lot of portfolios, certificate programs. And about three and a half years ago, decided, um, wanted to go out on my own. And so at the time I partnered with couple business partners who were not involved anymore and we opened a firm.

And so I do facilitation. So some people think of it as training, but facilitation training. On any kind of people development topic you can imagine. We do coaching. I'm not a coach, but I have coaches that work for me. And so we do executive coaching, do a lot of consulting, um, some engagement work, just everything in the realm of like people and talent development and it's amazing.

I love it. I, that's so cool. Truly love it. Like I just. I feel super fortunate that I get to live in this world, that every day I am like, oh, what new thing am I gonna do today? That's amazing. That's such a blessing. I feel, you [00:11:00] know, it's, it's not always that we find our way to that, and I think what's so beautiful about some of what you do is you help get people there in some ways.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Like some of what I was learning from what you were sharing was how you kind of tap into some of that. Right. I think in our leadership, inherently there is something just about. Being authentic to who we are. Yeah. Nice. And knowing how to like come back to that is not always easy. It's not necessarily the way we're trained to be and to show up.

Yeah. In our, especially in our workspaces. Uh, if you reflect back on those early days when you shared that you knew this was the work that you wanted to do, can you remember like what about it? Was calling to you, what were the pieces that you were like, oh, either this is what I was missing or this was something I didn't even know was a thing.

What was it that really kind of like got you to, to see that? Ah. So I was, the fact that I just didn't even know it was a thing. You know, when I was in college, I was very involved in [00:12:00] leadership. I was in a sorority, I was the president of the all sorority council at Sac State. So I was very involved in leadership and I really enjoyed it, but I didn't have a name for it.

Speaker 3: And so when I got to UCSF and, and accidentally landed in this role. I realized like there's whole careers out of working on communication with people and working on change with people and working on trust in the workplace and conflict. And I was like, oh, these are topics that I love. This is stuff, this is juicy.

I love like, yes. And I didn't even know really that you could make a career out of that. I mean, my mom's a teacher. My dad ran hardware stores, so you know, they had. They had these jobs that were like pretty well defined. So I just didn't know that was a thing I could do. And as soon as I figured that out and it didn't take me long, I was like, wait, are you telling me you make a living, do this and you make a living doing this?

And like I saw myself, I saw myself and knew right then that I could do that. And it's [00:13:00] evolved. I mean, it started frankly pretty selfishly just because I really like it, but it has really evolved where I really do feel very strongly. That most, if not all, people could love their jobs. Mm-hmm. If they had better managers.

Oh, interesting. Or better leaders. And so part of really why I do what I do is because I feel like we all deserve to enjoy our workplace. We, you know, most of us have to work for a living, whether we like it or not. You need food on the table. And I just don't think it should be like this gate kept thing that these people get to love their job, but all of these people don't get to love their job.

Oh yeah. There's so much science behind People don't leave organizations. They leave management. And so there is a lot of ability to make an impact by helping those managers lead better and helping them understand what does it mean to be a leader and how do you lead in a way that. People want to be around you, and that [00:14:00] makes them feel seen and makes them, you know, be understood.

And that's kind of my ultimate vision, is really to just live in a world where people like their jobs, like to show up to the place they have to go to make money because they have a supportive manager. Yeah. That's, I mean, yeah. The place where we have to spend the majority of our time. Right, right, right.

Yeah, exactly. Most of us anyways. Yeah. Could you like. Maybe this is not answerable, but do, do you notice a pattern? Could you speak to like what are some of the biggest mistakes that managers make if you are leading in a company? Right now, like say someone's listening to this and they're going, gosh, I am not totally sure necessarily if I'm showing up in a way that will drive people away.

Speaker 4: Um, are there qualities or attributes or actions or performance issues that can kind of. Make it worse, make it better. [00:15:00] Like what are, I guess I'm speaking more to, are there common mistakes Yeah. That you see people make? Yes. And I'm gonna step back for a minute because I just wanna say. We as a society, first of all, I love higher education, big proponent of higher education.

Speaker 3: My master's degree is in higher education. Really love the learning, but I think we don't do ourselves any favors as a society because we do a great job training people around how to be technical, right? Yeah. So how to be a really phenomenal engineer or how to be a really phenomenal lawyer. What we don't do is do a great job of educating people how to relate to others and how to lead others.

Totally. And so people in the workplace get promoted because they are really good at whatever their, their job is, right? Yes. They're a really good medical assistant or they're a really good teacher or whatever, and so they get promoted, but there's no support [00:16:00] there around, okay, well now you have this whole nother skill set that's leadership.

Mm-hmm. There's no support around there. And so the first thing I would say is. If you are a manager or a leader, recognize that is a different skillset than whatever your actual job is. Yeah. And so you can spend all the time in the world on how to be a better engineer, which is important. But if you are not equally trying to build your skills as to how to relate to people and how to manage change and how to communicate, you're probably got some deficits.

Yeah. Um, the number one thing I think people probably don't do enough of is clarity. Actually documenting. What do you mean? When do you mean it? What are you saying? We just sort of assume people understand what we mean. Mm-hmm. And it turns out we're all very different. And so we interpret things very differently.

And I think a lot of the world would be a better place in the workplace is if we actually like wrote down, Hey, here's what I'm asking for. Can you do this? Yes, I can do this sort of thing. Versus just sliding by [00:17:00] in the hall and assuming that person, you know, got your comment. Yeah. The other thing is I think people, um, I, I, I think people, um, some people are afraid to show up as who they really are.

I think, yeah, people have this message that they should just know how to be a leader and should somehow know how to be a manager, and so they're afraid to say, I actually don't know how to do that, or, this is a situation that's out of my control. Who can I go to to help me, help support me? We don't do that enough because we aren't really taught enough that like, it's okay to say you can still be phenomenal engineer and say you really need support over here.

So that's the other thing is just being willing to admit that I, as a manager, as a leader, true. Two different things, but uh, I have deficiencies and I need skill building and I need support and I need help. Once you like open that up, the sky's the limit. I mean, just that [00:18:00] recognition. Yes. That that shift from the doing to the leading or supporting, you know, it is, that was the biggest, when I went from chief of staff, which is literally like you are doing all the things that is inherent in the accepting of that role.

Speaker 4: It is like, yeah, you are, yeah. Doing it all. You are the, yeah. Jack or Jill of all trades, you're, this was Army knife, you're spinning something outta nothing. You're tracking everything. You're making shit dah, whatever. And then when I shifted into my COO role, I remember meeting with my manager at the time and she's like, this is going to be very different.

Yes, yes. Prepare yourself for. You are going to be doing a lot, but at the end of the week, you're not gonna know what the hell you did because you cannot like, yes. You're not ticking off boxes, you're not crossing off your list. And as somebody who really likes to tick something off the list, those list, what [00:19:00] is this like?

Oh my God. Yes. So thankfully I had someone who was guiding me and sharing with me what to at least. Give myself grace on in those early days because that shift is not easy. It does not happen overnight. It takes some time to kind of undo the habits that you had built. You know, I remember you asking a question around delegation in our last retreat, or our last facilitated conversation, and that was so tricky for me at first.

'cause again, when you're used to holding it all, it's like, what do you mean I'm not supposed to give that up? Like, yes. That's another unlock, I think, is when you start to trust and to know, and if you've built the trust with the team that you're leading, then delegating is the now. I'm like, what else can I delegate?

Give it all off all the things. I don't wanna do any of it. Yeah. You wanna do that? I love that for you. Fantastic. Like that. Yes, exactly. So it's an interesting change, and I [00:20:00] love that you just said that managing and leading are different things. Is that what you just said? Yeah, because I think, right, there's so many, I was talking to, I've spoken with a lot of women recently who have either launched their own thing or they're building their own thing.

And so this idea of leadership. The definition of it has to change because, yeah, they've been used to being the corporate bat that's leading a team of a hundred, and that is what leadership means in their mind. And so to then go into a team of one. And to think about, and I love, maybe you can share a little bit about your perspective on this.

'cause I love what you had shared in that conversation just around, it's in how you show up in life essentially. Yeah. I mean, I feel very strongly that if you are a human, you are a leader, you have the opportunity to be a leader. Anyways. There's so many different facets of our lives. Um. And you're a leader when you're not even realizing it.

Speaker 3: Right? The really fun example of when you're getting off of a plane, the person in row [00:21:00] one, there's a whole plane full of people waiting for them, and they have the opportunity to be really quick about pulling their luggage down and getting their jacket on and moving out of the way. Or they have the opportunity to stand in the middle of the aisle and.

Slowly put their jacket on or figure out where their, you know, Rollie flag is while the whole plane is waiting. Like it's a leadership opportunity, right? You have the opportunity right there to leave a whole plane full of people, but we don't think about that, right? We think about, well, how many direct reports do I have?

And that's important, but it's not the only way to lead. And there are a lot of people who don't have a path to have direct reports and don't have a path to, you know, have this big organizational chart underneath them. And I really think it's important that we all understand that that doesn't mean you're any less of a leader.

And in fact, most of, many, most of the inspirational leaders we think [00:22:00] about, they don't lead through authority. They lead through influence. Mm. They don't, they don't have direct power over people. Yeah. They lead through relationships. They lead through influence. They lead through connections with other people, and that's the ability you have anybody that can breathe that.

In fact, I did a session this morning with the SPCA. And then we joked about like, even dogs are leaders, right? So you don't even have to be human. There are leaders in every situation. That's a good reminder because I think, yeah, you're, we don't always think about how our day-to-day actions can be an opportunity to lead or to show up in the way we wanna show up.

Speaker 4: I'm curious too, if we kind of rewind back when you were just touching on, you know, three and a half years ago, deciding that you wanted to go out on your own. Can you speak a little bit into. Yeah, I always love to hear, you know, there's these kind of inflection points in people's careers around like, I landed this thing and I didn't even know it was an option, and I was called and pulled to do this.

[00:23:00] And then you are called and pulled to, do you know, something else? Not something else. Same line of work, but on your own. Were there whispers of that for you for a while or was it like. Bam, it's time for me to go out on my own. Well, if we wanna get totally transparent, I moved into a different role and I had a really difficult manager.

Speaker 3: Um, well, hey, there we go. Lived experience. I not gonna drop any names or anything, but truthfully, at the age of when, I don't know, at the time I was 42 or something, it was my first experience with a bad manager. I have been so lucky. I have had the most phenomenal managers who just poured into me, who saw me for me.

Who led me to where I am now, Heather, dun Carlton, near Segal. Kirsten Miho. Loretta Sloan. Anyways, okay. So I had to call out their names. Love it. Yes. And I got in a position where I didn't have a manager. I don't know, I don't wanna call a mad manager, but I mean, there were some room for improvement. And in [00:24:00] my line of work, all I do is try to help people be better managers and better leaders.

And so that. Felt suffocating. Yeah. And it was, it didn't take me long to realize I had to do something different. So at that point it was like, can't stay here. I can get another role, which could be a possibility, but I really have always felt like there was something that I've offered in this space that isn't necessarily out there all around and.

I felt like it was the time, like I'm gonna bring it there. Like I know what I do, I know the knowledge I have, I know I'm always learning and I know there's value there and it's time. And truthfully, it was a privilege as well. 'cause I have a husband who was able to support me through that transition and, and I do appreciate that.

So I was able to take that leap. But it was that, it was that time of like, I gotta go somewhere else. Yeah. So what am I gonna do? Right? What's that next step for me? And this is [00:25:00] where I. Felt really strongly that I needed to be at. Mm-hmm. That's so cool. I feel like when you start to feel those rumblings or the whispers of like, I've got something more to give and I don't know that I can do it.

Speaker 4: In-house. Yeah. It's an interesting thing to start to listen to and go like, huh, what could that be? Yeah. What could that look like? And first you just wanna squash those rumblings, like go away rumblings. Like I told, no, no, I've got three kids. I've got a lot going on. I don't need anything else. But yes, I mean, I am just, it's in my nature to be a driver, right?

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. A doer, a go-getter. And so I. It wasn't gonna be good for anybody if I stayed there in a position that I wasn't happy in. Oh my gosh, yes. No. Yeah. No, no, no. What if you can remember, were there, um, like what did you find the most challenging about going from being a full-time employee to [00:26:00] launching your own business?

You know, I am somebody who is, I am a rule follower. I thrive in stability. I'm not a boundary pusher by nature. And so it was really jarring waking up and realizing like, well, technically there's no place I have to be. Right? Like, yeah, I mean obviously I have children and whatnot, but not having that like rhythm that was built for me by whatever jobs it, I would always have jobs in large corporations that, you know, you're on your computer by 8:00 AM and you're there until five, whatever.

So that was really jarring for me. This was not difficult, but I realized. In a couple of months, I was like, why do I have so much time on my hands? And what I realized was when I was in these large organizations, I was spending four to five hours a day in other people's meetings. Yeah. And they were, you know, meetings are necessary.

We have way more than we need. But I was [00:27:00] spending a lot of my time in meetings that were not getting me or my position, or frankly even the organization further. And so, sure. That was pretty jarring, being like, oh, I have finished everything I need to finish for the day and it is 3:00 PM and why is that?

Am I doing like now what wrong? Like, yes. And at the time, truly and transparently, I was in therapy at the time for the 'cause I'm not great with transitions. Mm-hmm. And she was like, just go do snow angels on the carpet in your living room. You can do whatever you want for those last two hours. I really had to adjust that mindset like you are working at a desk from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM whatever that looks like, and so that's.

Very different for me now I'm busy enough that I cannot do snow angels and I wish I could do snow angels. I could've done that. I know. Why didn't I go the snow angels on the carpet? That is always the case. I think it is always the case. It's you cannot. Yeah. If you are an ambitious, driven woman, it [00:28:00] is almost impossible.

Speaker 4: I think even if you have done the deep work of like acknowledging that you need to pause and you need to rest. When you have that kind of time, it is really hard. Two. Allow yourself to recognize that your time does not have to be allotted to productivity, or what you've decided is productivity. And I, I think we're in a capitalistic society, so that's not in just a female thing, but just in general.

Speaker 3: Right, right. That can be really, really hard. And then you look back on it and go, Hmm. Could have been cool to like go on a hike right that day. I'm like, why didn't I read books? Like what, you know, not f threat over what else I should be doing. You know, what other thing I should be doing. Yes. Do you, I don't know though, did you find, I'm at that interesting moment where it's like.

Speaker 4: Even though I'm still continuing to build up my advisory work and I'm continuing to build up the work work, I find that there's always [00:29:00] something to do for the business. I'm like, okay, well then I should be doing blah, blah, blah, or like I need to like get my. Whatever plan to get, or I need to be doing more for visibility.

I have found what is really tricky in this space is to know what is enough. Because if you're building a business, it can just look like this outside of the direct work that you're getting paid to do. The work on the business feels. Never ending. Like, it's like there's no moment where I'm like, feel like I am, like good for the day.

I can do, you know? So how have you created those structures for yourself to know what needs to get done versus. What is like a could get done at some point? Yeah, that's hard. I mean, you know, it's really hard. I always giggle a little bit when people are like, I wanna work for myself 'cause I, I wanna be able to do whatever I want whenever I wanna do it.

Speaker 3: And I'm like. I never have that. [00:30:00] Like what? Like, huh. When you're in bed at 8:00 PM you're like, should I be doing X, Y, Z? Or you're thinking about something. Or if you love the work and you're excited about it, you're like, oh, I could be doing, yeah, exactly. I mean, I try really hard, this is gonna sound funny to probably my husband, me lessons.

'cause last night I worked, I try really hard. I don't work in the evenings. Yeah. When the kids get home at five, when everyone gets home at five, I really do try to shut it down. And so. By giving myself those time boundaries that naturally prioritizes a little bit. Um, yeah, you know, sometimes I have to do something, but I try really hard.

I also know about myself that. If I am tired, whatever product I'm putting out there is not good. I know that about myself. And so sometimes it's, it's a reminder of, yeah, you could work right now, but you're not gonna be doing anything good. Mm-hmm. And tomorrow you're probably gonna pick this up and be like, Ugh.

And rewrite, you know, half of it. Yes. Anyways. Yes, yes. Anyways, [00:31:00] but it's hard. And now I'm at a point where I'm incredibly busy with the actual work and so. All I'm worried about is am I spending enough time on the other stuff, right? Where it's like it used to flip, right? Am I spending enough time on the actual, you know, am I actually spending enough time on the deeper work on the Yeah.

You know, marketing or the systems or the processes, whatever. And that's a struggle too. So I definitely have no answer. Okay. Fair. Yes. I, none of us have answers for sure. I think sometimes it can feel. Helpful just to even hear how folks are trying to navigate these things because it's such a universal, I think, experience for anybody.

Speaker 4: Launching a business where there's so much navigate around, I hate the word balance. I don't think it's actually a thing, but like, you know. Right, right, right. Yeah. You're trying to create some kind of harmony in your life where everything is in support of each important element has the space it needs to breathe.

You're just kind of constant, like looking at like, okay, how much does this need? How much does that [00:32:00] need? It's a, it's an evolving thing always, and as. If you're evolving your business, you are also now ensuring a space where you're the sole owner of a business that you co-founded with two partners. And I'm wondering what that's bringing up for you.

Just from a like. How, um, that must feel really exciting. It must feel, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. How does it feel to be the sole owner of a company that you helped birth into the world? Uh, it feels pretty phenomenal. I'll be perfectly honest. I think this company had the phases it needed to have, right?

Speaker 3: And so I think. When we had multiple business partners, that was the phase this company needed. Absolutely. And then there was a time when this company was really ready for just one voice and one person's image of what this needed to be. And then we're in that phase now and it's been phenomenal. It's been weird kind of, because I've always had.

A direct [00:33:00] manager, right. Or a business partner. Mm-hmm. I've never worked for myself prior to this. I've always been very much in a team setting and I've always, you know, either had a peer or somebody above me, and so sometimes I'm like, you know, looking around like, what should I do? Oh, it's just me. I might love to make a decision on that, like there's nobody else.

So it's been kind of a shift, but it's. It's been great and I have two phenomenal women that work for me doing operation stuff, and they are, I mean, just. I couldn't say enough about Beth and Well, you know, I'm trying to get Sashiko on the show. Oh. That she's gonna be on hill. You know, I'm obsessed with her.

I love that. Yes, yes. Oh, I'm obsessed with her too. Um, yes, by the way, that was one of my greatest professional milestones is I worked with Sashiko at uc Davis when I left uc Davis. I didn't know that. Oh, you didn't? No, when I left you, yeah. She reported to BC Davis and when I left uc, Davis, she said, take me with you.

And I said, I said. Oh my God, would you come [00:34:00] with me? And she's like, absolutely. And so for two years, my whole goal, my goalpost, was to make enough money to be able to hire Satco in a way that was stable for her. And August 1st last year. So it's been like a little over, it's been a year and a half now. We were able to hire her and she came over and.

It truly, I mean, the fact that I could poach from uc, Davis, like that was it. Hello. You know, Sanko, she's such a quality human and so thorough and so helpful, and just so she's always in my corner. I mean, she's always in my corner. And so her and Beth, who is. Like 25 and loves Taylor Swift and just super energetic.

Keeps us young. I love it. Keeps us young and brings so much joy and energy to the room. And we're like, can you post this on Instagram? And 20 seconds later she's like, it's done. And I put a story and I did, you know, like that kind of thing. Oh my God, I need that energy. Yes, I love it. Uh, it's so [00:35:00] good. And just the two of them, and I call it my women era.

I'm in my women era. Um, mm-hmm. Because I'm just at a point where, and by the way, I have three sons, so I love, absolutely love the male counterparts, but just really in this space where I've been able to work with a lot of phenomenal women, a lot of my client contacts are women. Just a lot of the relationships I've been able to meet are just.

Amazing women who are just doing amazing things, and I am just loving it. Oh, I love that. I, I get asked that question sometimes. Why women? Right? Because same like I, some of my favorite humans are dudes. My husband's amazing. I have a son, I have a great dad, my brothers my brother. Like I love men. Right?

Yeah, but the reality is this is the work I know best because this is the work that I've lived through. And so it's just that this, it lends itself in some ways, right? I'm not speaking into that for you, but I think that for me, it's not a zero sum game just because I am choosing to support here. Does not mean I [00:36:00] don't also want to see this group of humans win.

Speaker 4: Totally. It's just that I think I can best serve in this way. Right. So it's like we get to love all the people, but Yes, yes. The work, love all the people. Yes, yes. But there's, you know, there's also some inspiration I think I pool from other women. And I can relate to that. Not that I can't get inspiration from men, right?

Speaker 3: I do for sure. But that it's okay to say you don't. I'm kidding. Kidding. I'm kidding. Dad. I get inspiration from you, I promise. But I can get inspired by women and I think it's just because I can see myself in that, right? I do think women face different challenges than men. I'm not gonna argue about who faces more or harder or deeper, but women just different face, different challenges.

And I've. I identify as a woman, so I can understand that, and I can pull, you know, from that experience. In a different way. And that's, yes. And like I said, I have three sons. I have one sibling. It's a brother. I'm married to [00:37:00] a man. I have a phenomenal father. There's a lot of men in my life who are lovely.

Speaker 4: Wonderful. Yes. Um, and it's kind of wonderful to spend some time with women also. Right? You know? Totally. Yes. No, I'm here for it. Um, yeah, it was an interesting moment for me last year. Actually, there was a, I had a couple of poignant moments. One of them included you prior to that. I had, I actually just wrote about this in my newsletter, around what it means to allow yourself to, to breathe a little bit.

We can be a little oversaturated at times, right? I had been part of a coaching program that was unbelievable and amazing, and I would shout it from the rooftops forever, but after a year I was like, okay, there's just too much in my head. I am holding too much. Like I can't quite see my way through it. And I really am not kidding.

Within two weeks of the program ending, it was like, like this, like light bulb went off because I had finally, I let myself get quiet and really imagine and [00:38:00] envision like, who do I wanna serve? What is the work I want to do? And every single person that came to mind was a badass woman I've either worked with or for, or would want to work with or for.

And so it was in the saying it out loud, I was like, oh, that feels a little scary. But also I'm just gonna. Name it and claim it as they say, right? Yes. And strengths finder talk there. Is it? Is that what it's, yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well this is perfect timing. I think we did that activity. Perfect timing because it was so funny.

It's top of mind because I just read Hoda copies latest book and it's called like, oh, I haven't read that one. It's not okay. I don't, I don't wanna deter anyone from getting it 'cause it's, it's lovely. But you could kind of get. What she's saying in the book, just from listening to her speak and she's a, I find her to be a much better speaker than she is a writer, but Okay.

She's very much like she says, name it and claim it all the time throughout the book. Oh, interesting. Okay. Like in my head it's totally, I mean, I don't know if Clifton strengths started [00:39:00] it, but it's a Clifton strengths thing is like naming. And, well, this is not surprising to me because I'm also now obsessed with Clifton strengths because of you.

There you go. And I am curious what you've seen with people. So just to share my story, I, you know, went into that retreat and we went through the StrengthsFinders and Jill helped. What's beautiful about having someone facilitate this for you? It's very different, I think when you do it on your own and you're trying to kind of like read the diagnostics and you're kind of like, I don't really know.

And it is quite layered. And so to understand why things show up as they do, it was really incredible to have somebody to guide us through that. But my light bulb moment was. I had been building a business the year prior and I had done really well on paper, but I was like, what am I really doing? I don't love the work and why am I gonna build a business around work that I'm not that excited?

Buy that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I could just go get a job. You know what? Not that going, getting a job is [00:40:00] easy, but I could, you know, shift my energy over here. And when you walked us through that and I started to see. Oh my gosh. Three quarters of my strengths lie in the relationship building bucket.

And I'm building a whole ass business on things that have nothing to do with any of that. What am I doing? You know? And then I think it's such a truth for so many people that your inherent strengths are, your unique talents are not necessarily what you think of when you think about. Mm-hmm. How you can make a living.

'cause they are just. Inherent to who you are. You're not conscious of them, you're not right aware of them on the day to day necessarily. So to have that, to have like a spotlight shown right on that was like, wow, this is amazing. Yeah. Where have you seen people have those epiphanies where it's like they either see something they never saw before, or they're just like.

Not, sometimes I think we can be surprised in a way that we're like, oh no, actually love that. [00:41:00] Like, what is that? Who is this? 'cause this is not me. Yes. Yeah. But how often do you see people get surprised by it? All the time. I mean, so I facilitate three different assessments, primarily Disc, Clifton Strengths and Myers Briggs, and I love them all, and they all have their use in different things.

Speaker 3: But the reason I, I love 'em for, for. Two reasons, and one is it gives you a language to understand why the things that you do that feel very natural to you don't work with other people. Hmm. And before you have that language, it's kind of like you're just costly hitting this wall and bouncing off, but not really understanding where the wall is or why the wall is there, or when the wall shows up.

It can be very disjointed and when you're able to like kind of look at that, you start to realize, oh, it's because I'm this kind of human and these are the things [00:42:00] that are important to me, or these are my natural behaviors. And that's different for others. And the other reason I like these assessments is because it gives an answer to, you know, that question of why the hell does he or she do X, Y, Z?

Speaker 4: Yeah. And we tell ourselves the story of they're doing that just to drive us crazy. Yeah. In reality. That is not usually the case. They're usually doing X, Y, and Z because it's natural behavior for them, and that's what they know. And so when we're able to start looking at the assessments and really say, okay, this is who I am, oh, and this is who you are, that tends to be a real aha moment.

Speaker 3: With the Clifton strengths, generally there is one of the top talents where people are like, who is this? Like, huh? It often is. They'll be like, yes, this is me, this is me, this is me, this is me, this is not me. And then you sort of start digging into it, and then finally they're like, oh yeah, that is me. But it happens all the time.

In fact, I taught Myers-Briggs today, and I'm [00:43:00] taking strengths tomorrow, and I love it. I love. Just helping people kind of open that awareness up about themselves and others, and hopefully look at people in a different way in the sense of like, well, you drive me crazy, trying to always get things moving, get things off the ground.

Oh, it's because activator is your number one talent. That's what comes really natural to you. It's not because you're trying to rush me all the time. Right. You are trying to rush me all the time, but it's because you know, it's in. Search of these other things that you're trying to utilize, and that can play a huge role on teams when you start to understand why people are doing the things that they're doing.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, people are surprised all the time. All the time. I love it. I love it. What a beautiful, cool gift that you get to give to people though, to be like, I love it. Surprise. Yes. And there's always, here's your inner psyche almost in every session. There's always, there's always one. There's somebody who [00:44:00] doesn't believe in personality assessments, and I get that, right?

Speaker 3: I get it. Like some people have had weird experiences. Some people are like just kind of naturally a little bit, you know, not trusting around that stuff. And I totally get it, but even those folks, you can see them even saying, all right, I don't really believe in this assessment, but I understand a little bit now that you're doing that, not just to personally offend me.

You're doing that. Yeah, because it's what comes natural and that when you can look at it that way, you can start to say, okay, well. How could I communicate to you what would work better for me? Right. Yeah. Because now that I know you're not trying to purposely irritate me. Yeah. You can get on a different level, right?

Somebody. Yes. When you're working with organizations, have you had experiences where an org thinks they're ready for this kind of work? 'cause it requires some level of an awareness that something either needs to shift or evolve or you know, something is, I would imagine. [00:45:00] Happening to have the desire to bring someone in to actually navigate these conversations.

Speaker 4: Are there. Signals in the early days if an organization is actually ready for this kind of work. You're laughing. Okay. We don't have to answer that one. That's also fine. Well, I'll just say any organization who makes an effort at all to develop their people and invest in their people gets two thumbs up for me.

Speaker 3: I mean, I love that. Yeah, it is. You know, we are in a volatile environment right now in the United States and many other countries. It is hard sometimes just to do the one thing on fire in front of us. Totally. Yeah. And professional development is never on fire. Um, yeah, well, well it is. Sometimes we don't know.

Speaker 4: It's a lawsuit, but yeah. You know, by that point it's actually a different kind of intervention and so. I think any organization, any leader, any [00:46:00] person who recognizes this thing isn't on fire, but it's gonna make a difference to the way my people work, and it ultimately is going to make my organization better.

Speaker 3: All my hats off because I love that. That's hard. It's an investment. It's a different way of looking at things. I would say 99% of organizations aren't ready probably when they get some of this kind of stuff in front of them. But most of the organizations I work with shift pretty quickly. It opens the gaps, right?

When you start to peel back the onion, you really start to see, and that can be difficult and you know, I'm not a therapist, but I've heard that about therapy as well. When you first start to look at things, it can get difficult at first because you start to see, we were in this really happy place where we were walking through and everything was fine, and even though it wasn't, we were able to tell ourselves, and now we have all this evidence in front of us that.

We are a little broken. Yeah. Yes. And so that's pretty [00:47:00] normal, I think, when organizations bring me in or bring a project in, but for the most part, they're open. I work with a lot of government organizations and a lot of really good people, and they want to do better. They want to be better. They want the organization to be better, and so I'm seeing a yes, yes, they're surprised and shocked and not ready.

And B, then it's like, okay, what are we now to do? Right? What are we gonna do to get ready? How could we make this better and really try to put effort in? Yes. And that to me is that's the benefit. That's why we do what we do. That's so cool. Again, it's such a gift. Such a gift. Well, let's bring it back to you here as we near the end of our chats on me the whole time.

Speaker 4: We've been talking a lot about the work, which is exciting. That's true, right? Because I think that so many people are gonna get a lot out of this conversation just because I think you are such a wealth of knowledge. Thank you. Um, but I'm curious about for you, when you think about. Early days, dipping your toes [00:48:00] into the career world, has your idea of success evolved over the years?

Speaker 3: Yes. I used to ask this question as, how has your idea of success evolved over the years? And then I was like, that's really presumptuous of me. I should at least give the opportunity to say, well, it hasn't, it doesn't. Um. You know, I love my business. My business is incredibly important to me. My life's work is incredibly important to me.

My three sons will always be my number one priority in everything I do. And so at this point in my life, I've recognized success for me is having the ability to be really professionally fulfilled, but also show up for them. And so whatever that looks like, if that looks like. The freaking play that they decide to do at 1:00 PM on a Wednesday.

Being able to, for the most part, move that around. If it looks like [00:49:00] going to watch my kids' lacrosse game in Elk Grove at 4:00 PM on a Friday, why do they do these things? I don't know. But anyway, that's what, to me, success looks like. Being able to have at least a little bit of agency that I can show up for my kids.

Where they need me. When they need me. Mm-hmm. I also like to travel. Yeah. So, so I wanna be able to travel. I wanna be able to go to new places and see new things and experience the world in a different way. And. I am not gonna lie. Money is very helpful, you know? Yes, yes, yes. It's very helpful. I do not live in a world where I'm like, I just do this for the fun of it.

But I also think I could probably have higher paying jobs at some corporation, but I wouldn't necessarily have the ability to. Show up when I wanted to show up, and that's what's most important to me, I think. Yes, I feel you on that. That is such an interesting shift that can happen. I had the blessing of total autonomy in my last full-time role, and it was such [00:50:00] a huge, I mean, I, I almost forgot at some point that that's not how most people get to enter their workplace.

Speaker 4: Right. So I understand that and we need more of that for people. I think, especially as you know, parents. For anybody that's in the caretaking situation, right? Whether it's for your parents or kids or whatever, a sibling. I mean, there's just, we don't have the systems in place to actually navigate what support looks like.

So if you have that autonomy and you get to create that for yourself, yeah, I mean, it's really such a huge thing. Okay. Last question that I ask every woman that comes on my show, because I like to think of this work just in general as. You know what, what legacy we're building toward. And I like to think about legacy not as the kind of heavy thing that we're leaving when we die, but it's more about what, to me, there's an energy around that where there's excitement, there's a lightness because it's what are we doing every day to build toward the thing, to the impact that we wanna [00:51:00] have.

But I like to ask everyone, what does building a legacy mean to you? Kristen. Um, and I always give everybody the option to say, come back to me on that. And we could do a round two, but I wanna at least give the opportunity to answer. I mean, I think there's different components, right? Of course. And so I'll go back again to.

Speaker 3: What is my legacy as a human is my three sons and putting three humans into the world who have been loved and cared for and cherished, and who can give that back to the world, right? That's my number one thing, but that's not all of me. And I really think if we're talking about legacy, I think just building a world that people understand you can love your job and it doesn't actually have as much to do with the actual technical thing you do for your job as you think it does.

It has interesting, so much more to do with the people around you, the [00:52:00] way that you're able to show up. You know, are you heard? Are you not heard? Are you recognized for who you are? It actually doesn't really matter if you're working at Chevron or if you're working, you know, as a CEO in Google. You can have those things and that can bring a lot of job satisfaction.

And that I think is the legacy, is people just understanding that I have to work for a living. We all have to work for a living, but I can actually enjoy those hours and I can make really meaningful relationships and I can have somebody see me for who I am and those experiences, and that is such. Just a gift and something I want more people to understand and have the opportunity to experience.

Speaker 4: That's amazing. I mean, that is life. That's life changing work, truly. And that is someone having some satisfaction and waking up with excitement and energy versus like, yeah, the Sunday scaries, because we're devastated that we have to have into another Monday. Right. There is, there's also just. There's such a trope around that that's so [00:53:00] difficult.

I think sometimes even when people are actually somewhat happy as other five, it's like society's telling you, you better. It's not cool to say that. Yeah, Monday like work for the weekend and it's like, wait, really? I don't, there's so much of that to that we can unpack, but. Or another time, it's like, don't tell anybody.

Speaker 3: If you like your job, you better make you better. Make it sound like you also are terrified of Monday. Miserable. Right? Or it can be. So I think just ingrained in our. The way we enter the world that it's like we're not even conscious of it. No. Right. In the same way, this is a weird tangent and this is a weird way to end, but I feel like it's really similar.

Speaker 4: I love it to some of the, like being a mom is so hard or it is the biggest struggle, or you are meant to suffer through it and like. Where is your wine and your coffee mug? And I'm all for the wine and the coffee mug for a good time. But when it's being positioned as this is just the worst and you are going to, it can actually, I, I find that every once in a while [00:54:00] creeping in where I'm like, wait a second.

But no, I actually really. Freaking like being a mom. It is a funny, funny thing to navigate these themes that the world has presented to us and been like, well, this is what you must accept as truth. And when you start to question it, it's like, wait a second. But does it But does it? And you're exactly right.

Speaker 3: 'cause it's like the world has told us you probably hate your job. You probably just count the NA so you can retire. You probably are miserable. And when you're like, actually I love my job. I, yeah, I feel really fulfilled by it. It's like you wanna whisper that. I love my job, actually, I don't wanna admit that in mixed groups.

Right. And I do think more people can have that experience and that is really, I love that. That would be the legacy I want. Believe hell yeah. Well, so cool. I am just so thrilled that the universe put our paths. I know. Me too. Towards each other in this way. Yeah. And I'm just really thankful that you spent some time with me, so thank you.[00:55:00] 

Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been literally the most pleasant hour and a half or so of my days. Thank you. Yay. Alright. Yay.

Speaker 4: Alright my friend. I'll see you soon. All right. Thanks Chris. Have a good day

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here. I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next. And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to belden strategies.com.

I share fresh insights, stories, and tools every week. Until next time, keep building, keep evolving. And remember you. Are kind of a big deal.