Don’t Rush What’s Next: Why Quiet Seasons Matter

What happens when the company you helped build disappears - and you’re left rebuilding your identity in real time?

Join me as I sit down with Michelle Skoor - former colleague, executive teammate, and one of the most grounded leaders I know. We worked side-by-side inside a fast-scaling, venture-backed social impact tech company that ultimately imploded. What followed wasn’t just professional transition - it was personal reckoning.

In this conversation, we unpack what it means to lead through uncertainty, to question your own judgment, and to sit with the uncomfortable space between who you were and who you’re becoming.

Michelle shares how their years as a competitive gymnast shaped their leadership style, why they've only applied for a traditional job twice in 25 years, and how intentionally building relationships over decades created the foundation for their next chapter.

We talk about identity, imposter syndrome, risk tolerance, burnout, menopause, parenting, privilege, privilege’s responsibility, and the courage it takes to get quiet before rebuilding.

This is an honest conversation about ambition, grief, resilience, and redefining legacy - not as titles or status, but as impact and love.

You’ll Learn:

⭐ How early life experiences shape your leadership muscle
⭐ Why building relationships over time matters more than “networking”
⭐ How to recover after a professional implosion
⭐ Why quiet seasons can be strategic 
⭐ The difference between being good at something and wanting to do it
⭐ How to evaluate sustainability before saying yes

Key Insights:

Risk Tolerance Is Built Over Time:
Trying things - in sports, in startups, in life - creates the muscle to navigate uncertainty.

Identity Can Over-Attach to Work:
When roles disappear, you’re forced to separate your worth from your title.

Quiet Is Not Failure:
Taking space to reflect, heal, and reset can be the most strategic move you make.

Sustainability Matters:
Mission-driven work without a path to financial health is fragile - and leaders must ask harder questions.

Legacy Is Dual:
It’s the work you’re proud of and the love you cultivate at home.

Timestamps:

[00:00:00] – Introduction: Leading through uncertainty
[00:07:00] – Gymnastics, risk-taking, and leadership muscle
[00:18:00] – Early career, imposter syndrome, and building access
[00:25:00] – Intentional relationship-building vs. networking
[00:33:00] – Writing a personal manifesto
[00:42:00] – The implosion and identity reckoning
[00:50:00] – Asking harder questions about sustainability
[00:57:00] – The power of quiet seasons
[01:05:00] – Parenting, re-parenting, and legacy

Resources and Links:

Find host Kristin Belden on LinkedIn or at BeldenStrategies.com
Sign up for more conversations and insights at BeldenStrategies.com/newsletter

Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, follow the show, and leave a review. And if you’re navigating your own transition - whether by choice or by force - join my newsletter at BeldenStrategies.com/newsletter for more conversations about leadership, resilience, and building what’s next.

Transcript

Speaker: [00:00:00] Hi everyone, and welcome back to kind of a big deal. How do you introduce one of the most important people in your life, someone who's been your work spouse, your bestie, your family? Michelle SCO and I met as colleagues at a venture-backed social impact technology company, drinking from a fire hose building as we went, but somewhere between the endless one-pagers and the mission-driven.

We went from coworkers to the best of friends. Michelle is one of the most grounded, centered leaders. I know the kind of person who can jump into the deep end without a life preserver and somehow make everyone around them feel steadier too. An Enneagram eight, a former college gymnast, a parent, a partner, and someone who's true north just shines through in everything they do.

We talk about what it means to lead through uncertainty, how to know when to pause instead of push, and the legacy we're building. Not just in our work, but in how we love the people in our lives. This one's close to my heart. Let's dive in.

Speaker 3: [00:01:00] Hi, Michelle. Kristen, it's so good to see you and your gorgeous background. Thank you. So I remember when you first put that up and I was like, that looks amazing. It's my favorite background ever. It feels like probably the most talked about virtual meeting, uh, story and everything. Everyone always wants to know if it's real.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. Um, or how they get it, but is indeed real? You too can hang wallpaper. Yeah. It's also just the way it's like perfectly framed. It's funny, it, I always touch it so that people know it's real though. It's not your green screen behind you. Um, I'm so happy that you're here. We, um, both of us have sent our little ones off.

Speaker 3: Well, you with a not so little one anymore, but two kiddos off to their first day of school this morning. So. Some feels are happening. Who knows if we'll get through this whole chat without a tear or two. We're gonna do our best [00:02:00] big feels sitting right at the surface. Yes. We always talk about like when it feels like it's just right under the chest and you're like, okay, do I breathe through it or do I just let it flow?

I don't know. Like the next door we'll tell, we'll see. I've been thinking about this when I wrote myself some notes. I was trying to figure out how do you introduce one of the most important people in your life? Like I feel, you know, you contain so much for me as it relates to. Both a former colleague and a friend.

So I'm gonna do my very best, um, to, to do this and give you the flowers you deserve. We met a little over five years ago, which, uh, is wild to think about. It feels like I've either known you forever or we have been in each other's lives in some way, which we may have been, but we just didn't know it.

'cause we both lived in San Francisco. San Francisco, yes. Frequent in the same places, but never ran into each other. But maybe we did. We just didn't know [00:03:00] it. Yeah. Um, my awkwardness somehow managed to break the ice and one of our first work meetings and we went from colleagues to workspaces to besties.

And Michelle has now become someone that I just can't imagine my life without and is just one of the baddest badasses I know. It's like total boss. Embodiment of an Enneagram eight for those that know, know, uh, incredible leader, but with just this amazing ability to see right to the core of folks. And their true north shines through in both the work setting, but also who they are as a partner, as a parent, as a friend.

Um, and they've just been an inspiration to me in so many ways. And so I feel like Michelle's gonna just drop some wisdom bombs on everybody and everyone just needs to get ready. So, Michelle, welcome. Thank you. Uh, Nance, I feel like, I don't know if I should call you Kristen or Nance, um, but Thank you. [00:04:00] I feel like.

Speaker 4: There's, so, have you ever seen so many of the memes in the social world where so many of your besties don't know what you do? And so like, they wouldn't be able to like, introduce you in any realm other than like, you know, I, I know so and so this way, and what a gift to know you across so many pieces of our life that are important to the bulk of us, and have a deep understanding of who we are as parents, as partners, as people who care about work we spend our time doing in the workday.

Um, what an absolute gift to be able to see each other in all those days. Right at the surface. Um, thanks for that intro. I'd love to take that with me wherever we go. I, my wish for people is that they get someone who can introduce themselves. Oh, it's [00:05:00] seriously. So true. I remember you shared a voice note with me also, Michelle.

Speaker 3: Everyone should know Epic voice note lever. I had never done the voice note thing until Michelle came into my life and I was like, oh, this is what you do. I didn't know this. I don't know how to do this. And let me take, I'm over here with my notes to make sure that I don't forget anything to respond to.

Speaker 4: You have to make agendas for voice notes. Yeah, a hundred percent. Because I gotta make sure, you know, and then I, um, Michelle had shared something about saying how their kids saw me in a way and, and their family saw me in a way that I had kind of forgotten about myself even. And it is, you're right, it is a true gift to have folks in your life that can see that and see you in ways that are important.

Speaker 3: Um. So, gosh, we started together at a social impact technology company. I had a conversation with Chanel who's been, um, in, in this format, and she also shares this same [00:06:00] journey. We were on a venture-backed speeding train, drinking from a fire hose, learning literally as we went. I mean, the amount of one-pager that Michelle and I had to create together that, uh, if we never have to create a one-pager again in our life, I'm sure we'll be happy.

But literally trying to, like, I remember being on the phone on Slack, like trying to figure this all out, piece things together. The work we were doing felt very important to us. And so I think that allowed us to come together, you know, maybe in a different way than if you were working in a fast-paced environment that didn't feel quite as, um, mission-driven.

But one of the things that I admired most about you during that time was, and, and forever, but just something that I, I got to know about you in those early days was. Your willingness to just always jump right into the deep end without a life preserver and your ability to then stay what felt totally centered during times when many would be flailing and perhaps the internal, like was not feeling the same as what was [00:07:00] shown externally.

But I think when you're leading through those moments, that is such a beautiful gift to have and a beautiful skill to have. Um, it allows others around you to settle into the moment and not feel like they're, you know, freaking out or flailing or trying to move forward in a way that doesn't have clarity or strength.

So my question for you is, have you always carried this ability? Um, is there anything along your kind of career path that helped shape how you show up with this ability to both take on brand new things and remain kind of steadfast while walking through those moments? Hmm. That's a great question. Just a softball to start.

No big deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Loving it right over. Um, and a good, uh, uh, such a great reflection also about that time and that work that we were helping [00:08:00] grow and lead together. And I think there's a real benefit that I get to answer that question now at 50 plus with the amount of professional experience.

Speaker 4: Like I don't think that to, to get to an answer to your question, I think there was some version of 25 or 30 or 30 5-year-old me who would have and did show up that way. Um, maybe not always with the sort of calm centeredness among so much unknown and so much gray area. I think that was definitely developed over time.

You know, if I think about this really even pre-professional journey, I think about my gymnastics time. I started gymnastics at three years old. I did it through college. That's the first 16 years of a thing that I was committed to before. There [00:09:00] was work I was getting paid for that had a plan and a trajectory, and a schedule, and a way that I needed to show up in order to get the results that I wanted.

Um. It's such an interesting sport because you're on a team, but it's a very individual experience. And so you really are competing for your best Yes. Against other people, but your best is gonna be your best that day. And I think for me, there were so many lessons in that that I didn't unpack until so much later when things came up on work teams or figuring out new roles.

And I think after gymnastics in my professional life after college, um, I think you and I talked about this at some point, but from 25 to now, so for the last 25 plus years, I think maybe [00:10:00] only twice have I ever applied for a job where there was a job description. Mm-hmm. Um, not where I was the first into the role or creating the role or trying to see if something would work out.

And I think that a piece of the muscle of gymnastics is like, you just kind of have to go try things. Yeah. And like in order to get it right, you have to try it hundreds and then thousands of times to skill build. And so that inherent muscle within me that is like, I'm just, I, I just try things. Yeah.

Without there being such a, what happens if I make a mistake? You're never gonna try gymnastics and get it perfect the first time and then every time. So it's like building the muscles around that. And I think that's really served me in my professional life to probably take more risks than maybe the average person would and sort of see things through and not have all the answers.

And then the benefit [00:11:00] I think of growing. I'm an only child, but growing up inside of a team that felt like family for me is trusting the people around you and what does that take to actually like lead something and do something together where everyone gets to be their best version of themselves or build those strengths.

Or like some people have it together one day and some people don't, and how you still find a beat and keep moving forward with that. And I think that that's like if I have a superpower, it's definitely one of mine to be able to do that. And I think that's who I am on a lot of the teams that I've been on.

And that's matured over time. Yeah. I think also letting some of them not having it together and having the chaos and not having all of the answers, that has been like the actual growth over time that I think has also [00:12:00] made people feel like we can do this. And I don't have all the answers, but I'm gonna like, keep us all moving forward and we'll all figure it out together.

'cause we're all showing up to do it. Absolutely. I love that you shared a reference to how a sport shaped who you are today. I don't know if you happen to listen, Gretchen, who's another dear friend of, of both of ours that we both adore Yeah. Um, had shared that a reflection for her was in being the catcher in softball all growing up and how.

Speaker 3: It took someone else actually reflecting that back to her, she had never fully made those connections or connected those dots for herself. But yeah, how that now shows up and how she leads and how she thinks about who she is as both a leader and as a teammate. And yeah, I think, you know, we don't always look back on our lives in that way and, and recognize that everything has been stacked in some way to make us who we are.

[00:13:00] Um, and it, it kind of, it reminds me of a question, I dunno if I shared this with you, but I was at a, you know, kind of community building networking event and one of the questions that they broke us out into rooms of two and they asked us to share something in our lives that have shaped who we are or how we lead that doesn't normally make it into our bio or our resume.

And I thought that was such an awesome question because it really gets you thinking like there's so much about either your family dynamic or you know, school. Anything that influenced who you were. Mm-hmm. And I think many of us actually end up pulling from our younger ages. Yeah. Like most of the people that I heard answer that question, it was not something from a year or five years ago.

It was something from way, way back. Yeah. Um, so I love that question and I think, um, now I just ask everybody that, but you already answered it, so I love it. So I did listen to the Gretchen piece and I thought, I have another [00:14:00] dear friend who plays softball. And I was really thinking like so much of it.

Speaker 4: Also, one of the things that struck me is like. Because of that role on the softball team, no other role are you sitting and observing everything. Not only your team's dynamics, but like you can see what the umpires and the coaches and the other team and I was just like. Whoa. Like the lens with which she honed that from literally where she was in the baseball diamond, uh, still learning other sports terms.

Speaker 3: I know that. I was just like, whoa. Totally mind blown by, right by that. And then it makes so much sense. If you know her, you're like, well, duh. Of course. Yeah. And really makes me think as a parent, I'm like, oh, maybe it's okay. So softball? Yes. Oh my gosh. 100. Yeah. You are getting the beauty of raising two children who have found a passion and love for the sport that you [00:15:00] grew up with.

I am raising two children, one of whom has chosen sports that I had nothing to do with as a child. Softball and soccer, mostly softball. And same, I'm learning all the things. I'm like, what does that mean? I don't understand. How is that, is that a goal? Is that a str, what is happening? Right, right. And also soccer.

And she is choosing, and I don't know what this is in her, but she's choosing some of the more difficult positions. She really wants to be pitcher for softball. So she spent some of last season pitching and now for this year with soccer goalie. And I'm like, what? Don't do this to your mom because this is a lot of pressure.

I just high, she feels so loved and supported that she's gonna go try the hard things because no. Yeah. Yeah, we'll go with that story. Yeah. Selfishly I'm like, I really [00:16:00] do wish that they were choosing some other things because I love learning about new sports, and I'm like, yeah, I know a lot of this other stuff, so it'd be great.

Speaker 4: So like, how does this work? And how does that work? But anyway, it, it is really cool to see. And now with this lens, I don't know that I would've ever looked at them playing sports or engaging whatever the activity is, but to now look at it with this lens of, oh, how is this shaping how you're gonna show up later on?

Speaker 3: Because I think we do think a lot about athletics or extracurriculars as how they will shape who you are as a human, but not necessarily how you're going to lead or show up in a workplace. Yeah. And so now I'm watching it and wondering how that will play out for them later on. Yeah. Um, yep. So I recently also had a very cool young woman on the show named Celeste, and like, way too cool.

She's too cool for me. I felt I was laughing afterwards. I'm like, that's the most nervous I've been in a conversation [00:17:00] because you're too, um, that's a lot because you're really cool.

Uh, a d mid middle age cool. Is real different from in your early twenties. Cool. I'm gonna receive it. That's part of this whole exercise is compliments. Cool. Is take your stance. She's just one of those people though that you come across and you're like, wow. Like you're just, you're gonna do something awesome.

I don't know what that is. You're gonna either build something or impact something or influence something because she has such an intentional way of showing up in this moment in her life. Mm-hmm. Um. She is contemplating what's next. She kind of shifted away from what she was thinking she was gonna do and she shared that she's kind of finding the duality of both the impossibility and the possibility of the moment that she's in really particularly challenging.

'cause it's like she could do anything really. Yeah. [00:18:00] But yet everything feels out of reach. 'cause it feels like she then has to either put this step in front of that step to get to that step. And so it's like how do you stay present with what the possibilities are and not get too ahead of yourself and think, well if I make that decision then it might lead to something different.

And so I was listening to her kind of sit in this space and I'm curious for you post-college, kind of what those years looked like for you. I didn't have the pleasure of knowing you during those years of post-college pre-care. So maybe share a little bit and, and if you might have any advice for somebody that is finding themselves in that moment.

Speaker 4: Yeah, well I listened to all your episodes, so I listened to that one too. Um, and I thought it was really, it, it actually was really interesting the time that I happened to listen to it because, um, I'll get to the, your question in a second, but it relates, [00:19:00] um, I had just somebody, some people were, had been asking as, you know, post the, uh, startup we were working for.

We both have pivoted to figure out where do we wanna spend our time, what do we wanna do? And I have spent the last two and a half years building my own consulting practice because I wasn't sure what else I was going to do. There was a good period of time after that I wasn't emotionally ready to like totally reinvest in something again.

And I, I think much like you don't really do anything half-assed, like, so I just really felt like I couldn't put both feet in firmly one place. And yet I still knew I wanted to be doing impactful work. And a lot of people have asked me like, oh, how did you do that? And how did you get started? And I think I really didn't have, [00:20:00] I wasn't giving myself credit.

I was like, oh, well I knew some people and so I like organically talked to people and this kind of happened. But what I would tell Celeste is that my advice is. I have intentionally spent 25 years building my network. Yeah. I, from college in really specific ways. I wouldn't say that I, I mean, I definitely, listen, I went to college for sports.

You and I, we have had this conversation. Uh, I picked a major that had the least amount of math requirements. Like I didn't have a post-college plan. I just had to like, how am I gonna get there and what will I do while I'm there? Plan. But in that period of time, I really struggled. My first year and a half in college, I had just gotten by, there's so much old story, uh, around telling myself I wasn't smart enough and shouldn't have been there, and I didn't [00:21:00] know how to do the system that was learning in college and a first generation college student and one person in a class that I took.

Is still one of my mentors today and helped me understand how to be a good systems thinker and a critical thinker and connect me to people and resources. And all I knew was like, I wanna do something like that. I want to be and and build muscle. Like I watched this person go help other people do this.

And so without knowing what the shape of my work, professional life would look like, I think that that embodiment of helping other people, ensuring that people have access to the resources they need, the support they need to be their best selves or understand something that they're navigating, that I [00:22:00] spent a lot of time figuring that out.

And then I think that that piece has been. A flavor of every job that I've had along with, um, really the people that I work alongside, that I work with has always been what's felt most important to me and not, I don't think I've ever picked jobs where I'm building widgets. It's always been because it's been serving people in some way.

And so I, I really now can tell the story and give the advice differently that a part of why I've been successful these last two and a half years is because I spent 25 years setting myself up to do this. And that is not a small thing, but it is really hard to like take up the space and tell that as a story.

Uh, especially as like female [00:23:00] non-binary queer person. I don't think that we often. Tell our stories in those ways, which is like often why I go and listen to your podcast is in a moment where I'm like, Ooh, like imposter syndrome or this, and I'm like, I know where I'll go and listen to badass people stories about the work.

Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I love so much of that. I feel like, I mean you just, I feel like we need to unpack multiple layers of what you just shared. I think, um, you know, one piece of it is, and Celeste and I chatted about this as well, like I hate the word networking. Like we have got to think of a different or your network.

There has got to be, we have either got to invent it 'cause it's also not necessarily community. This is not, you're not building this in a way that is intentionally to create an ecosystem of other people connecting with each other. It is about your own individual relationship with each of these people.

And I don't even know. [00:24:00] Same in that I could not have seen it in that way all those years ago. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, I genuinely adore people. And I think that there is something about, if you're curious about the person in front of you, if you're interested in being of service in some way or another of what it means, then to ultimately get to be a connector of other people.

Or you see an opportunity and you go, okay, great. Like, hey, this could be cool over here, or whatever. And that does require being intentional about what it means to be in relationship with people, not about going to some event and handing out your business card. Right. It is a very different mm-hmm. Way of thinking about what your network is.

But that goes all the way back to what you were sharing earlier around. You've only had one or two jobs where you actually had to apply for it based on, you know, what was put out there for the position. Right. They talk about that a lot, the quote unquote. You know, hidden network or whatever you want to call it, that ultimately [00:25:00] many of the best opportunities, and not best on paper, but best for you because of your unique skillset and what someone is looking for come from somewhere totally different, which is not the job board, which, sorry, LinkedIn, I love you, but like you are not a job board.

You are not finding jobs through anymore. And so it is about, I think staying connected in a way that is authentic and that then allows for opportunity to present itself differently because you're not coming from a selfish place. It is a genuine desire to. And, and sometimes it is literally like, Hey, I'm looking for this thing.

Can you help? That's, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's because you have poured into that relationship over the years that that's allowable. Right. Otherwise people can smell it from a mile away. Yeah. A hundred, a hundred percent. Um, you then also talked about how so much of your work has been centered on [00:26:00] being in service of others or making sure that there are access to resources for folks where you and I found each other was on work that was focused on creating equitable pathways specifically into the technology workforce.

And I know you have stayed centered in that space and it's such an important, important place to continue to do good work. I know that's not where you always were like, but there was some flavor of that in your work. So by the time you wound up at our startup. Did you know that that was where you wanted to be headed, and what were some of the experiences you had in your previous mm-hmm.

Work life that allowed you to kind of, for me, when we landed there, this was a new world, the idea of social impact technology and what it meant to create these equitable pathways. But did you always kind of see yourself in that space? Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard in hindsight, understanding the through [00:27:00] line, but of course, like I can see it now all the way back through the person.

Speaker 4: That I was telling you about, that sort of, I like, I literally think of this person as the life preserver for my college experience because I was literally weeks away from being like, I can't do this. I shouldn't be here. I was weeks away from getting kicked out at that stage. Yeah, a hundred percent. Oh yeah.

Definitely went home on academic probation, but I, you know, would've maybe had some sort of confidence to be like, oh yeah, that's not for me, and just walked outta it. Um, but I think, you know, I realized that that person created access for me and said, you know, I hate the, like, seat at the table kind of thing.

But they were like, this is for you. No one's just taught you how to do this before. So at minimum, let's at least give you the skills to decide if you [00:28:00] do wanna do this. That to me, to empower somebody to then make choices in a way that choices are not made for them. That has been the through line all the way through.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I first started off doing HR and recruiting, um, for a very traditional ag-based company in Southern California. What would be one of, many, many times I was the only person who looked like me, a more masculine, queer presenting person in a place, even though I didn't really have a name for it. Back then.

Speaker 4: I recognized there was not a lot of people like me on a team. There was definitely no people, queer people in leadership, and so I think I was really committed to like helping ensure a diverse workforce even within. This very traditional ag sales, um, and [00:29:00] manufacturing kind of place. So even early then, I don't think I knew what I was doing, but I.

And then I really, I went back to higher education because it was a system I knew, and I knew that the college that I worked for was 60% first gen students as well. And so I was really committed there, not just to students having access, but to ensuring that the system of people, supporting students knew how to do that.

Uh, because I don't think often that happens in higher ed. And so, uh, we could have a whole other podcast about breaking down of higher ed at the moment and the very much forced transition that I think is about to occur, I would say doing work where all along the core is do more people get access to benefits, services, work teams, [00:30:00] promotions, do it, trying things, leading teams, all these ways in which.

Um, they haven't had before is the theme of the work. And I think really the title for me was in 2016 post-election, I was working in a big tech company and I just knew I needed to do something different. And that is when I left to go do work for lesbians who Tech and Allies. And having really, like I said, been one of very few, if any queer people in companies I had been at before and then helping support the 70,000 at the time, a community of technologists all over the world was really, I think for me, probably the most professionally impactful moment, uh, sort of from Gretchen's catcher seat.

Like I just watched all of these people who were in these [00:31:00] roles that these companies, um. Be visible and share their stories and build community. And you know, one of my favorite professional memories is hosting those summits and watching first timers walk into a summit like that and feel like they found their place for the first time.

Maybe ever at any step along their professional journey. I can go to bed at night feeling like, okay, this is work that matters. And I've carried that through with me. And I think that's why I showed up at the startup we were at. I was very intentional about work I wanted to do. I was thinking about starting contracting at that time and thought where I spend my time is gonna matter and I've written a one pager about myself.

This is what I'm good at. This is what I wanna do. These are the people I wanna surround myself with. Uh, and the founders found that at the time and. Happened to be the right fit for what they were doing in that [00:32:00] moment. Wait, so you wrote that for yourself before they even knew you? This was something Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3: Okay. Wait, say more about that. Because I think, yeah, we don't spend much time and reflection in those ways around it. It's easy to be reactive to opportunity. Mm-hmm. But to put a statement out into the world saying, this is what matters to me. Yeah. What made you, what compelled you to actually write that down?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, I think the shaping of my professional life up until that point, the impact of the work that I helped lead at Lesbians Who Tech watching all these amazing badass queer people. Get on the main stage and like share their story and be bosses of the work they're doing. I mean, Kara Swisher and Megan Smith and some of these, like early in raising their hand out [00:33:00] folks, um, I was like, oh, like I'm gonna write this sort of cover letter of, I remember, I think it said like, I'm a badass.

Speaker 4: Number two. Like I had worked with multiple founders at that point, and I know some of my superpower is like. Co-founders and startup venture folks have these big visions and these ideas, and they need somebody who's like a translator and an ops executor. And I am really good at that. And I knew I was good at that.

And so I just wrote this thing that was like, I am really good at this. Here's what I can do, here's how I can do it, and here's all the ways I've done it before. And I sent that out to my network of people and was like, if you know of anybody for whom this fits, let me know. And an investor pass that to them as they were looking for people to join their team.

Speaker 3: I had no idea about that part of the story. I [00:34:00] love that we just uncovered this because it's also what an incredible kind of exercise to encourage folks to think about doing for themselves. I. I have, after going through a coaching program, they encouraged us to do more on like, what's the vision for our lives?

Like, what do you see? Not like where do you wanna be in five years, but like, ultimately, how do you wanna feel? What does life feel like? What do you, what does it look like? How does, what does the impact you're having? Right? Not like I'm going to be the, you know, COO of X by whatever you're, it's more of what are the big kind of audacious dreams and goals.

And I think that's similar to what you're sharing, but it's for the moment that you're in right now and getting really honest with yourself about where you wanna be and who you are. And I've had this conversation now enough times to where one of the themes that has been recurring is we're not always great [00:35:00] at recognizing what our own strengths are and how to tap into that and how to stay curious about yourself and also give yourself.

Enough, I don't know what the word is. It's not grace, but enough kind of, of a window to say like, no, I am really fucking good at this thing. And no, but, and that's awesome. And I get to say that out loud because I have built this muscle and we're just really terrible at that generally, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true.

Speaker 4: And also I'd be so interested in over time the folks that you're talking to too, because so many people I think are in a, some of them are in a more seasoned part of their professional career, but I think at that very same time I wrote that manifesto, I also got clear. About the things I was good at that I didn't wanna do anymore.

Speaker 3: Anymore. I know. Yeah. I, it's, so that [00:36:00] part was like a personal, as much as a professional exercise, like, can I do business development? You bet I can be on those calls. Is that what will, you know, like I hate the bring me joy, but like, yeah, I could do it, but I don't wanna spend my time doing that anymore.

Speaker 4: And I think a piece of the support I give myself is that it's okay that I don't have to do all the things anymore, and I am good at. Certain things that I wanna spend my time doing. And even if I'm good at something, it doesn't mean I have to spend my time doing it or that I want to do it. And that honestly has been the harder lesson for me and not saying yes to things that I know I don't really wanna do than saying yes to the things that feel like no-brainers.

So I'm trying to like listen to that flow even more. Uh, that is so real. I think that has been my last two years is getting [00:37:00] really much more honest with myself. Ab I think that you're re that is just as critical. Yeah. And finding the things that you do find strength in or where you do shine as recognizing, oh, maybe I became really good at this thing.

Yeah. Or, I learned how to be really good at this thing, but it doesn't mean that's where I'm meant to be forever. And. To really look at that with a critical lens is uncomfortable, I think. Yeah. Because it can feel a bit terrifying to go, okay, well if I set that down well then what am I gonna focus on?

Speaker 3: What am I gonna double down on? If, if I say I'm, if I say out loud even to myself, then I'm not doing those things. Like, am I as valuable? Do I, you know, am I picking the right things? Whatever the questioning is in your mind. Um, and that, that is tricky. I, and I think it's where it gets even extra tricky is I think there's also part of my [00:38:00] advice to those that are a little bit earlier on in their career would be, do say yes to everything, right?

Like, do raise your hand for all the things. Do like open yourself up to opportunities or possibilities that you might not have said yes to because you don't. No yet, right? Mm-hmm. You might think you know, but you maybe don't. Maybe you haven't been exposed to some incredible thing, right? And so I was always the one saying, hell yeah.

Like, or like, yes, if a door is opening for me, I will run through it. And now I find myself a bit further on going, okay, well now I have said yes to all the things. Now it's time to start. Yeah. Auditing that a bit. Yeah. And there, that is a, I think a, it's an important distinction because I think it's not about saying no early on, it's, it's like, yes.

And then maybe some no later. Yeah. Yeah. And I do, I think there's two interesting points for me about that. Similar, I said [00:39:00] yes to everything. Almost always one, because I think I'm a genuinely curious person and in organizations of different sizes, I always wanted to know how everything was working. So it's like, oh, I'll learn that system or that piece of technology or that role or or X.

Speaker 4: And I also think similarly, that has served me very well. It's like, I don't need to do X, but I know how X works and I know how it's supposed to work, and I know, right. And that's helpful as you and I. Sort of navigate strategy work. It's like I need to have that lens to understand how to support leaders, uh, but don't need to do it.

I also really wonder how much of that is a gendered response. Yeah. And I think that, um, where that bleeds over to so many things is, you know, how you're supposed to know how to, I'm supposed, I have a brand new seventh grader today and I'm supposed to know how to parent a [00:40:00] seventh grader and I'm supposed to know how to do this other stuff and Right.

And so we, we sort of get all of these hats all the time. And so it is a rare moment, especially later in life to be able to say, yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. Where I feel like I do see men, especially in the workplace, being like, this is my lane. Yeah. Yes. Um, without hesitation. And so I try to sort of think about that all the time for myself is like, okay.

I have to say no to some things because my resources are also finite, and so I can't say yes to everything. Absolutely. That's a really interesting thought because I think so much of what I've considered for myself is I have become better at a thing because I did know the backend of it. Right. I always liken it to my years in the service industry and working in restaurants.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Like I was a great server because I [00:41:00] started as a hostess and then wound up in the back of the house being a food runner. Mm-hmm. And then became a buser and then became a server. And so I was great at being a server because I knew and understood the dynamics of the kitchen and I knew the chefs and I knew the kitchen staff and I knew like the systems that created what, you know, brought out the final product to the table.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Um, maybe I didn't know, need to know all of those things. To be a great server, but I, that's the story I tell myself anyways. And yeah, maybe we can just step into things and be great at them without having to do all of that Yeah. Work prior. So I might be thinking about that a little bit more. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: You know, you and I walked through a genuinely awful experience with the company that we both cared very deeply about, basically vanishing overnight. Um, [00:42:00] and I, I had a similar conversation with Chanel, who we also are close with and worked with during this time of our lives. And so the details aren't important, but I think the parts that are important are that this was, we were watching people, we cared about losing their livelihoods.

This was enough of a dramatic event where. Legal counsel was involved to make sure we didn't get caught up in the craziness that we didn't have any part in. Um, mm-hmm. You and I spent a lot of those early months together after the implosion trying to make sense of things, unpacking all that had gone down while still also trying to really sort out our own identities in the process.

I remember a critical moment where you and I, we both served on the executive team by the time everything ended and we literally both had this feeling that we had to share out loud with each other. And I don't know that I've said it out loud to anyone else, so we can always edit this out. Um, but we had to really [00:43:00] sit with, did we have the jobs and the titles that we had because we were good at what we did, or because we were willing to not ask some critical questions of the moment that we found ourselves in.

I now can answer that definitively. Uh, in a, in a positive way for myself. But yeah, we really had to sit with some of those hard, hard questions and identity around title and, you know, the hustle and the things and the building. Yeah. And to reflect on it. Now, I'm so glad that we get to be in this conversation now and not then because so much can change in such a short period of time.

I remember even at the one year mark, which was, uh, Memorial Day of, of last summer, going, oh my God. Like, I am a, I am a different person than I was even a year and a half ago. And so now, two years later, it's even more so that way. So I'd love to hear from you, you know, kind of [00:44:00] what these last two years have brought up for you as you think about your own evolution and what you care about.

How have you changed? You know, are, are there any big. Things that you can reflect back to share with others that might also be going. You don't have to have this dramatic of a story to have a transition in your life. Right. And to allow yourself to evolve in some way. I think it's, you can either choose to get stuck in, in where you were or you can, you literally have to actively choose to allow yourself to evolve into what's next.

So, very long-winded way of asking you, how have you seen yourself shift in the last few years? Yeah. Woo. There's talk about that. This also could be its own episode, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that, um, yeah, I, I will start with like what comes up for me first, which [00:45:00] is I needed the two years post implosion to quiet the noise.

Speaker 4: To quiet the noise so I could form some sense of truth for myself about that. About so many of the questions that I think you, me, others in their own way have like mulled over and over and over again in our own brains and our own self talk patterns. And I think that I have to land on what is true and what is true is that I, and we built things that served people, that changed people's lives, that offered people something different than the trajectory that they had been on.

There was a delta there, and I would not wish the close [00:46:00] down and dramatic implosion on any one of the people or work there or works there, or the ripple of whom. People that tr entrusted us and were in flight and so many other ways experienced that, implosion that part. I of course wish I could wave a wand and do different, but I trust that good work happened there.

It happened four really great people and it happened by really great people. It is still one of like the my absolute favorite teams of people that I got to work across. One of the magic sides of that is who all got attracted to this work and landed doing the work is some of the most incredible people that I feel so deeply grateful to have crossed paths with.

That's how I know it's real. 'cause those people are amazing. A hundred [00:47:00] percent. Um. There's things I wish for sure I could and would have done differently, but I've been in startups since 99 and like in some ways, this is just one of the ways that startups either crash or totally or succeed. And so it happened to crash.

And I don't say that in a emotionally flippant way or that it wasn't actually in the closing incredibly, in a negative way, life altering for people. And I also do mean it in a startup-y business way. It was like, oh, didn't, that didn't land and people, not us made choices that made that so, and that was the outcome of those choices.

Yeah. I think though that in the two years post that it has only sharpened for me the for whom I'm doing work and with whom I'm doing it alongside. Um, [00:48:00] I've been spending a good bit of my time actually working in a lot smaller teams, and the questions that I ask and the questions about sustainability and real business structure, I think I now think about and ask differently because I recognized what I didn't ask in those moments because I assumed.

So I think it's helped me hone that it hasn't changed the flavor for me of work that I've picked. I've kept much of the threads of that, as you know, with a contracting and consulting work that I've taken on. But I think what I ask now and what I wanna know about the books and, and how healthy we are and what funding has come in and like, that's all much different in a way that I think also, sorry to keep referencing this.

Like I think either I wasn't cultured to ask before or I don't know if that's like a [00:49:00] generationally sort of thing that like when I was coming up you just didn't ask about those things. But I do now and I wanna know, and I think if someone's not giving it to me, I have very different questions than I did two years ago.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yes. I think.

Unclear on if we would get the answers, even if we ask the questions. Right. I think that's another interesting part in this, which is, you know, you, you don't know what you don't know, but I do. To your point, if you're not getting then the answers that you are seeking in a clear way that gives you the bigger picture of what you're holding or walking into.

I think that's a great lesson for anyone that's looking at any job anywhere is, and it's not just the startup world, right? It's ask the questions of how financially healthy they are. What is the five year plan for the business? And I think it's difficult in the startup world because you don't always have an answer to that.

Yeah. It's you're building it as you're flying. Right. But [00:50:00] to know, I think especially, and I think about this a lot after the work we were doing, especially in the populations we were serving. If there is not a plan for sustainability, you are, you are gambling with people's lives, and I think that that is where I now come from.

If I engage in this work going forward, it's okay if things do blow up though, because there is a possibility in any startup environment that that can happen, then what is the safety net? And if there's not, then we better be having that conversation with much more intentionally with folks that might not be thinking about it in that way.

I think it's, it's easy to say those words, but to to deal with the reality of what that means. That you are making X salary. Yeah. That, you know, many people could never have dreamed of before to then just saying, sorry. Yeah. No longer, and by the way, your last paycheck is bouncing. That's a whole other, right?

Like there is a, [00:51:00] there are choices to make before that. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. It's really interesting though. I, I just started working with a client, uh, about two and a half months ago who is in this moment, there at the last two years of this round of funding. And this is the strategic moment I'm helping them unpack is what is the path to scale and sustainability, or what is the path to wind down and when and how do we keep building frameworks for that?

Yes. Um, and I don't think I would have known how to like, sign up for or do that or support that kind of work without having had this experience. And that the people leading this work are thinking that way. So consistently lets me know I'm showing up in the right place to keep doing good work. 100%. Isn't it terrible that sometimes we have to just live through these things though?

It's like I, why? Yeah. I wish I would've known. Like it's, [00:52:00] you do. Sometimes I think it's one thing to share wisdom and advice, but ultimately, many, many times we have to walk through it on our own to understand it or to, to internalize it in a way that will then shift the way we enter spaces going forward.

You can't, you don't know what you don't know. It's such a theme of parenting in this moment too, having kids starting junior high. I think one of my biggest lessons also is. I do want the failures. I do want the mess ups for her. Yes. Part of how she's gonna learn a thing is to not get it right because a whole life built on perfection and getting it right is far more, uh, therapy than she's gonna be ready for.

Speaker 4: Then, if there's like these capacities to make mistakes now that actually I have to remind myself of that in the parenting in the moment that the mistake is fine and [00:53:00] it's not my job to fix it, it's my job to let it happen. And to support her and for her to know she's loved and supported. And all of those will build up to a kind of like risk tolerance and risk taking for her.

And so also I think about that in, you know, early folks that are gonna listen to this or are other things early in career, what is your risk tolerance? Like, do you wanna go build a thing that maybe never sees the light of Dave? I really have maybe one more of those rodeos in me. I've done a bunch. I think I'll only have one more, but I'm so grateful for all of the experiences of them and I know I like that rodeo.

Mm-hmm. So, um, you do, there's a way to choose a very linear trajectory and then, you know, there's a way to sort of choose these other more risk-taking things, but understanding how you built that muscle will sort of, I think be a good guy. A hundred percent. I was [00:54:00] chatting with, I don't know if I've ever shared with you, a friend of mine Rose, she and I worked together at the Journalism startup in San Francisco.

Speaker 3: So we both worked at McKinsey. She and I and the partner that was leading the work were the ones that branched off and started mm-hmm. The base that is in. And she now owns the Foggy Dog, which is a multimillion dollar business that is focused on dog accessories and she's like killing it. And she's been doing this for, you know, the last 10 years.

And she said that that experience at the base that is in was something, number one she could have never expected for herself. Right. I was asking her kind of like what the difference between her MBA and kind of life experience and what, what has she pulled from each of those things and how she's thought about her work going forward.

And she was like, not to discredit my education. It was wonderful, but nothing could have given me the experience that. Working and starting something from scratch. She's like, we were running around San Francisco trying to find office space and like find ordering [00:55:00] printers and like yeah, you're doing all the muck of the muck of the muck and, but you're so excited by it.

'cause you know, it's in service of this bigger thing. And I don't think there is any way to, to share that kind of wisdom without walking through it yourself. But yeah, she had said that is something that really she would've never thought of building her own. She, she didn't say she could have never, but she believes that her experience then is what then really built that muscle and her excitement about what it looks like to build something from scratch.

And now she's, you know, running this incredible Yeah. Business. So you don't know yeah. Where it will lead you. But I think I, I too feel very grateful for the multiple startup experiences that I've had because it, it does show you a different lens of business than I think many other experiences can. Um, I have two questions for you before we go.

One is, you touched on allowing yourself the [00:56:00] quiet mm-hmm. Um, and allowing yourself that space after the experience that we both had. And I think about that a lot. I think especially as, um, women, as you know, non-binary folks, as folks that are coming from communities that are not necessarily fully represented in these spaces.

We tend to push ourselves really hard because we wanna, we feel like maybe we don't feel like society has told us we have to be the best at the thing in order to continue to have the quote unquote seat at the table. Also language I hate, but can't think of anything else at the moment. Um, and so to, to allow that quiet feels so counter to what we are used to and.

I struggled with that immensely in the beginning. I was fighting so hard against it. It was like, well, just give me a thing so that I can get moving again. I am not, I don't wanna quiet myself. I read a beautiful [00:57:00] book during that time, and I'm gonna link to it because it was so impactful for me called wintering.

But it is about allowing yourself that moment to just be still and to walk through it in a way where you're not just trying to force yourself onto the other side of it. When you think about that time, was there anything that allowed you, can you think of anything specifically that, like do you think you were aware of it in the moment when we were walking through it about the need to be quiet and, mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, it also coincided with having just turned 50. I think I was sort of headed into the start of that year already being. Sort of reflective and taking inventory of like where I've been and who I am and the life I've built for myself and what do, what did I, I think there inherently, there was [00:58:00] already some sort of like, reflection.

I don't think of myself as a quiet person. I don't think that's a descriptor that people who know me. Um, so, uh, I, I would say two things. I don't think people would describe me as quiet or soft and not soft in like a, I don't care sort of way. But I think I'm a pretty definitive person and I think quiet and soft at the beginning of the year or near, uh, new Years that year.

I think, you know, I take myself on these like overnight retreats where I sort of journal and set intentions about what are my words and what do I wanna focus on, and what are some themes. And having also been deep in the start of menopause, at that point, I really was like, Ooh, okay, softness. I'm really, I'm gonna try softness this year, and quiet, and these ways in which I don't have to take up space, because that's just what I've known and I've done my [00:59:00] whole life.

And so I, I think I, that that was a forcing function for me to be quiet, to quietly serve the group of people that I knew needed some immediate support in that moment, to be quiet in my family and not fix or mend the thing that was broken until I was ready for the next thing. And so grateful to have a wife and a family that supported that quiet period of me taking what I needed.

And I think that. I also recognize, um, and have really recognized over the last 15 to 20 years that I'm, I need some interstitial moments in between big transitions. And I knew that what was on the other side was big. I didn't know what the shape would be and I didn't know what it would require of me, [01:00:00] but I knew I was broken enough that unless I got quiet and could take the space and let me just say, uh, given the variety of people, I think that we'll be listening.

That was an absolute privilege and a, and a luxury. And also I built my life such that that was possible. So I won't just also say it was that it was, we intentionally had the ability to be able to do that, but recognize it was a privilege. Otherwise, I think. I don't know what I could have picked up and started doing with, with being as broken as I was.

Um, yeah. You know, but I had just moved my whole entire family to a new city and a new place, and asked them all to take on major transitions, and we weren't even eight months into that. So I was also grieving, not just the work and the people, but also what's it [01:01:00] all for if I literally just upended my whole life to do this?

Speaker 3: Hmm. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. That is such a beautiful reflection on that time. I think, I think I remember sharing with you, I had a couple of like interviews of sorts, you know, right. In those beginning days. Yeah. And I remember telling them like, you don't want me right now. I, I don't know how else to say it. I, I know I'm, I'm good at what I do.

I know that I would be invaluable contributor, but like in this moment, I cannot. I would not function in a way that you deserve to have somebody function in that particular role. So like, yeah, no, thank you. Exactly. No, and, and again, yes, talk about a giant place of privilege to be able to say no, but I also recognize that the healing and the building would've taken so much longer had I tried to like shoehorn something in that was not yeah, the right fit for the right moment.

And yes, these are things we can say in hindsight, but [01:02:00] ultimately, yeah, I think it serves us well for any experience coming down the line to recognize when those moments happen and go, okay, this is a moment to pause. This is a moment to allow some, some breathing room before. Trying to shapeshift into whatever's next.

Um, but that's, it's really, really, it's so much harder to do than it sounds, I think. Yeah. Know it's, well, I mean, I was reflecting, I don't even think you and I have talked about this, but I, when my kids did a camp at uc, Berkeley this summer, and I had totally forgotten that when I was 31, a startup that I worked for and helped grow, the founder had decided to wind it down thoughtfully that I always consider my mini MBA that six month period and.

Speaker 4: I remembered that I also, I took that summer, you know, I've been working in tech and had worked in higher ed and I took the summer and I ran a [01:03:00] sports camp for kids at uc, Berkeley Extension. 'cause I was like, it's three months, it's four months. I, I'll get paid far below what I was making. But like it, I was like, I'm outdoors.

I'm putting on sports camps for kids. Like it's something that will make me happy and I will be bringing in some income. And I had forgotten that. Like I allowed myself to do that before. And I think that that was maybe my first version of getting quiet or not being like, I can choose this other thing in the interim before I go figure out the next big thing.

And that was really formative for me. And as I was back on campus, I was like, oh, I forgot how that, I was like on this path and I said, I'm gonna do this side thing until I go figure out the next thing. So yes. Yes, yes. I think that's such a great, though, reminder that you don't have to always have the next step figured out.

Yeah. In order to take a [01:04:00] step, you can still do something that is positive for yourself and it, we can get paralyzed, I think, in thinking, oh, well, if I don't have the next perfect. Big whatever figured out. Especially if you're used to living into a big role or a big job. Yeah. It can feel like, well you better leapfrog into that next one quickly.

Speaker 3: And the reality is no one's gonna notice that time that you were not in that space. It's all good. No, it's always there. Yeah, that's right. You can make your way back there. Yeah. Um, I know we only have a few more minutes and, but I do need to ask you this 'cause I get to ask everyone this question at the end, which is, and if you've listened, then you know what's coming for you, which is, you know, in this work that I've been doing most recently and thinking about bridging both career development and personal development and recognizing these two things are so intertwined.

All of it is ultimately in service of the legacy that we're looking to build and the impact we're trying to have in our lives and in other people's lives. But it's such a, it's a word that [01:05:00] has such nuance, and it's a word that means something different to everyone. So, Michelle, what does building a legacy mean to you?

Speaker 4: Hmm. Woo. Emotions right back up at the circuit. Um, I think that, I think that there's multiple pieces. For me, there is a legacy of work I feel proud of that feels important, that the impact of the work is something that I, I don't know if you know Andrea Gibson. It's, um, you know, there don't even get me going.

Speaker 3: Talk about emotions at the surface. And if you know Andrea Gibson, everyone needs to know Andrea Gibson. I'm reading. Um. I have really, it's so interesting as I, I think I was reading a lot about, uh, Andrea, right after she passed, I can't think of someone that I don't know or respect or admire who did [01:06:00] not post something so profound about her work and her life.

Speaker 4: And I thought, my gosh, when you are on your known deathbed and you are thinking about the legacy you leave behind, is there no more perfect version? And I'm sure she wouldn't say that. They wouldn't say that, but like, oh my gosh, that flavor of that, that was so impactful for so many people, that is it for me and that I can feel that truth for myself.

That feels important. Mm. Um, I also think that for me. Again, as I sent my seventh grader off onto a new adventure today, we were texting about it. I was texting about it with some other friends, and I know that she's walking onto that campus feeling supported and loved and that when she comes home, [01:07:00] all of her and every version of her is loved and accepted.

And that is a legacy for me. That is as important as any work I do that that changes for me, as you know, changes my generational family dynamics that re parents me, that I get to parent in a different way, that I afford myself that opportunity, and that she, my kids and I and my wife, get to do that all really differently.

That, I think those two pieces for me, I can, when I go to bed at night, I'm like, okay, that I've spent my day doing the right thing, holding the right thing, loving in the right ways. And it's not perfect. It's always still a work in progress, but that I care about the work and the progress of it and the legacy that it leaves, that feels, um, like my North star, that that could not feel more true to [01:08:00] how I know who you are and how you show up.

Speaker 3: My response to Michelle this morning in their recognizing that they were watching their child walk off with a level of self-assuredness and confidence, um. Is a true testament to the fact that that child knows that she has her two best cheerleaders mm-hmm. In her corner all the time. And what more could you want for your kids?

There it is. We, we got so close. We got so close. Yeah. And, and not to not just the two of us, uh, loving and supporting her. Um, I will have, have, you know that her first elective and where she walked right into is art today. So without knowing you and without knowing Chanel, I'm not sure she would have picked that for herself.

Speaker 4: But having such incredible art centered art, appreciated creative thinking, people in her world, I think has really allowed her to [01:09:00] explore a side of herself. Isn't so regimented and that is a testament to you and Chanel and other people who love that side of her. I love that. I love it more than the whole world.

Speaker 3: I love that we get to watch these humans become who they are and also in some ways shape who they are, whether it is intentionally or not, or whether it is, I know as a parent how. How challenging it is to not want to put your own imprint on or their your own stamp or your own like protective layer on that.

To your point, it is about them getting out there and talk. She's already built such a level of resilience to where she's willing to just walk on that campus and own it. I mean, there's no better feeling. I can imagine. I'm not there yet, but we're getting close. So getting close. We're getting close. Not ready yet for more.

Um, I love you so much. Thank you so much for doing this. You're the best. You're the best too. Thanks for doing this work and for putting these voices [01:10:00] out into the world. It's magic. Your magic. Thanks friend. We'll see you soon. Yeah. Okay. Bye.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here. I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next. And if you are ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to belden strategies.com/newsletter.

I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week. Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.