What It Really Means to Lead People Well

What if the most important part of leadership isn’t what you say or do - but how you see people?

Join me as I sit down with Jackie Kendricks, Director of Education at Roberts Family Development Center, who has spent years working alongside children, families, and young adults in community.

Jackie’s path into this work began in education, but it deepened as she stepped into nonprofit and community-based work - where she saw firsthand how complex people’s lives really are, and how often we reduce others to a single moment or behavior.

In this conversation, we explore what it actually means to lead people well: holding space without judgment, understanding the difference between expectation and entitlement, and recognizing that most people are simply trying to survive with dignity.

You’ll Learn

⭐ Why leadership starts with how you see and understand people
⭐ The difference between expectation and entitlement in younger generations
⭐ How technology is shaping attention, identity, and behavior
⭐ Why community and connection are essential to resilience
⭐ How to navigate emotionally demanding work without losing yourself
⭐ Why “your 3am phone call” matters more than anything

Key Insights

Most People Are Trying to Survive with Dignity
When you understand that people are navigating more than you can see, it changes how you lead, respond, and show up.

Leadership Is About How You Leave People
Impact isn’t just about outcomes - it’s about whether people walk away believing more in themselves.

Expectation vs Entitlement Is Often Misunderstood
What looks like entitlement may actually be a generation shaped by immediacy and constant access.

You Can’t Lead Without Seeing the Whole Person
Reducing people to a single behavior or moment limits both their growth and your ability to lead effectively.

Timestamps

 [00:00:00] – Introduction: Meeting Jackie and her work in community
 [00:01:05] – Jackie’s role at Roberts Family Development Center
 [00:04:45] – Supporting children, families, and underserved communities
 [00:08:00] – Working with young adults and generational differences
 [00:10:45] – Technology, attention, and immediate gratification
 [00:13:00] – Expectation vs entitlement
 [00:15:30] – Teaching real-world skills in a digital generation
 [00:18:00] – Parenting and navigating technology with kids
 [00:20:30] – AI, learning, and critical thinking
 [00:23:00] – Jackie’s path into nonprofit and community work
 [00:26:30] – Understanding people beyond the surface
 [00:30:00] – Surviving with dignity and isolation
 [00:32:45] – The importance of community and “your 3am phone call”
 [00:36:30] – Burnout and emotional load in this work
 [00:40:30] – Self-care and learning to be alone
 [00:43:30] – Balancing ambition, family, and boundaries
 [00:46:00] – Leadership, confidence, and how you show up
 [00:49:30] – Legacy and leaving people well

Resources and Links

Connect with Kristin Belden on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinbelden/
Learn more about Belden Strategies: https://beldenstrategies.com

Sign up for the Big Deal Energy newsletter: https://beldenstrategies.com/newsletter

Connect with Jackie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacquelyn-kendricks-89b35a47/

Check out more about Roberts Family Development Center: https://robertsfdc.org/

👉 If this conversation resonated, make sure to subscribe, share it with someone who needs to hear it, and let me know what stood out to you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi all, welcome back to Kind of a Big Deal. I'm your host, Kristen Belden, and it's truly my joy to bring you these conversations with incredible women doing such meaningful work. Today I'm sitting down with Jackie, someone I just love being around. She has a quiet confidence about her, which is not always the loudest voice in the room, but when she speaks, it's thoughtful, it's intentional, and it lands. She is the director of education at Roberts Family Development Center in Sacramento, where she works closely with children, families, and young adults, walking alongside people through some of life's more complex moments. We talk about what that work actually looks like day to day, what she's seeing in the next generation, and how she thinks about leadership in spaces that require both structure and a lot of heart. This one is really about people, how we show up, how we understand each other, and what it takes to do this kind of work over time. Can't wait for you to hear from Jackie, so let's dive in. Hi, Jackie. Hi, how are you? I'm so good. I'm just so happy to be sitting here with you. Thank you so much for coming to hang out with me. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I am excited. I'm excited for today.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

You are one of those humans that I feel like every time I see you, I just get a big smile on my face. Um we don't get to we don't get to hang out very often. So when it happens, I really look forward to it. So um good. That would be really sad if you were like, uh no.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

You'd be like, oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Um Jackie and I met through the wonderful local leadership program that I've mentioned probably too many times at this point because the other folks that I've interviewed, Shauna Tamika, also, you know, through the Stack Leadership Program. And I think that's just a testament to the fact that that group brought some really incredible folks into my life, and I just feel so grateful for that. Jackie is one of those women that enters spaces with just like a really quiet confidence. She's not always gonna be the loudest voice in the room, but when she decides to share, it's always insightful, it's always spot on, it's always done with intention. She has a love for her daughter that just immediately was. I remember our very first conversation. We were sitting at lunch. It was like a buffet lunch, and I got the full download about her now, 15-year-old. And I was like, I knew I loved her. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for that introduction. I I am, you hit me spot on. I am absolutely I'm this weird, I guess it's you know, introverted, extrovert, right? Like I'm absolutely outgoing and a people person and love to be in space with people, but I am an absolute observer. I sit back and I watch and I listen and then I formulate my thought, and then I word, then I word vomit on. Yeah. I word vomit. I absolutely know a 15-year-old and a few months from 16. Oh my gosh. Um, I am continually learning from her every day, learning about myself and learning about Grace.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

It is the most wild. I actually wrote about this recently with my daughter who's 10. The almost like re structuring of like how we think about what it means to parent and child. And I had uh amazing parents, but societally I think things are shifting around what it means to, especially with daughters. Sons too, of course, but just yeah, you know, they are a mirror in a way that can be deeply unsettling at times.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yes. Oh my goodness. I I would agree. I had a great, I had great parents. I had, I mean, like I'm so fortunate um for my upbringing, but exactly what you said, like parenting in this day and age is it's wildly different. Yes, it's wildly strategic. I don't know that my parents were that strategic, but yes when it comes to parenting.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

So Jackie has been with the Roberts Family Development Center for eight years, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yes. Yeah, going on my ninth, going on my ninth.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Amazing. Nonprofit that supports underserved children and families in our region. Currently, they're director of education. And I think it would be helpful just to start there because this is what's so crazy about these leadership programs is we all are with each other for a year, but we don't actually get to talk a lot about the work that we lead, the work that we care about, right? Because a lot of it is about the community project that we're doing or learning about our own internal development. So I'm just excited to hear more about the work that you care about. So let's start there and um the work of the center and kind of what you're focused on specifically.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Roberstein Development Center is based out of North Sacramento with the mission and vision to strengthen families and communities, right? Knowing that families and children need strong communities and access to equitable resources to live their best life. We start with kids. Our heartbeat is education and kids. Um, you know, most of the families that we serve look like me. And so wanting families to have an opportunity to shift some of those generational things that have happened in communities. The community that we work on was terribly hit hard by the war on drugs. And it's a community that is primarily um a lot of transient families. So families that rent, families that move in and out, families moving through through life as in a process. And so wanting to offer children an anchor and a place to be able to really hone in on what's possible for them to dream big. So we do after school programs, we do summer literacy programs, mentoring, tutoring programs, um, parent engagement, and then we have a whole host of resources that can come alongside families as they struggle with just the general things that life kind of throws at you, with the hope that we create some sustainable change and help community members understand, larger communities understand how important programs like ours are to be able to provide equitable access to what's out there. Because many times families in communities only know what happens in their communities. They don't know about the different things that are happening in other spaces. So through things like field trips and guest speakers and parent series, we provide opportunity for community to get involved. And then we also do some advocacy work, helping young people learn how to advocate for themselves, helping parents learn how to advocate for their children, and also helping people understand their voice and role in the larger political, for lack of a better word, political community landscape of the city, right? From how you participate in your neighborhood associations to city and county elections, what your voice may mean at a district school board meeting, um, and how that filters into larger schemes of things of how city may allocate money for programming, for parks, for street cleaning. So we do a lot of community work, but our heartbeat is really equity for children and families.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

That's amazing. The advocacy piece, just in general, I feel like it's such a missing component in so many spaces. Like, how do we, as folks that are of our community, actually get involved and get engaged?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So what do you, as the director of education, like what do you get to do? What's like what's your kind of day-to-day? I can imagine it looks like all of the events now. I was gonna say, I can imagine it's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I oversee all of the programs that touch children, so that's a real huge chunk. So it's anything that deals with schools, kids, um, parents, mentoring, tutoring. I am a kid person at heart, you know, and when I started out in my career, I started out as a preschool and kindergarten teacher. So what? Yeah, five and six year olds. That's that's my heartbeat. Like I love kids because five and six-year-olds say the darndest thing. Like they have no filter. Um, and I think that, and I think I absolutely, I know, I absolutely love that they have no filter. It keeps you on your toes. And so my heartbeats are being in space with children. So we serve kindergartners all the way through high schoolers in our formal programs. And so being in space with kids is always really fun to see them grow into change, to see how they think, to see how they grapple with things. They're actually really, really loving when they're in a space that's super supportive. So, you know, it's always cool to walk through a space and have a young person tell you they're like the smartest person they know, or those affirmations that you need that oftentimes going through your day, you're like, yeah, I'm not really feeling this. And then I also have the privilege of working with our workforce. And the really cool thing about our workforce is that we employ college students. Most of our positions here at the center are part-time, and so they are ideal for a college student. So most of our workforce is probably about 18 to 25. Um, so I get to spend my time pouring into young adults as they're trying to figure out their way in the world, as they're trying to figure out what their gifts are, as they're trying to figure out how they use them in the world, as they grapple with wins and losses, as they kind of open their minds to learning things that are different than what they may have experienced in their life. It is very interesting and it is kind of fun, all in the stressful, all in the same thing, right? Because we're talking about generational things, like my generation versus their versus, because that's what it feels like sometimes. Yeah. But like versus their generation and how simply having a device that gives you things immediately changes your focus on how you value yourself versus the understanding of like the delay of gratification and nothing in life comes immediate. That simple mindset shift based on the quite honestly, the the invention of the cell phone in the way the smartphone and a non-smartphone person, right? And so helping young people kind of walk through life and go through these experiences to broaden their horizons, but also build the muscle that you get out of life what you put in. Yes. And so I get to spend a bulk of my time training, mentoring young adults as they kind of grapple and go through life's journey. I think that is probably my favoritest thing to do, along with being with the young people and seeing the work that we get to do with them in after school programs, we do during the school year and then our summer program and watching the small wins and the smiles come across their faces when they're in a space where they feel safe or they get to share with you what they did over the weekend. Kids have a way of just, I don't know, putting life in perspective sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

I was just gonna say, yes, it reminds you what's actually important, right? It shows you, and I think that's the small wins too. It helps ground us in the reality of life can look it, life is difficult, but to get to see through the eyes of a kid that like there are also these things to celebrate.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

I'm super curious about what you were just sharing around the kind of smartphone generation. Obviously, that's a like Pandora's box that we could talk about that the entire conversation. Probably could. But I'm sure there are folks that are interested either as a parent or a caretaker or an educator around what does that actually look like as you're working with these young adults on what it means to shift their mindset from that immediate gratification to what you put in is what you get. How do you see that unfold for them? And what are you pouring into them to kind of get them to see that?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Yeah, it's really an interesting dichotomy, right? Young people will sit in space together and be texting each other on their phone, right? So weird to me, or like you know, they're on one device and you're on another and they're playing the same game against each other. Like, what y'all aren't talking? Like, wait, what? And they're like, no, we're hanging out, and you're like, no, wait, what? It is fascinating um and weird, all in the same notion. The expectation for an immediate response to things is really strong. Yeah, I have found and I think I have found and discovered that that also gives you a sense of expectation, right? It can look like entitlement, but I think it's really expectation that people respond to you, that you have a response of some sort. Where I think for me, no immediate response doesn't mean that that has anything to do with me or my value. It just means that you haven't responded yet, and it may take time. And I'm learning that for young people, if you're not responding to me, that means, and I'm gonna sound like one of them, because I, you know, I'm young. Um, you've left me on red, and that's the most thing in the world, is that you've you haven't responded to my message, to my ask, to my thing. And so that sense of expectation has to be, I think, honored in order for young people to begin to be willing to um see more than just what benefits them.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

I think, you know, I think there's a fine line between expectation and entitlement, and oftentimes it can come across like entitlement, like, oh, I need more, you should be giving me more. I'm here. Why don't I have these things? I've shown up. What do you mean? And I think that's the expectancy. And so, and I think that's because you can get an immediate response for little things, right? Like my daughter does it all the time. Mom, I'm at the food fair at school, and I forgot to tell you. And can you cash app me 20 bucks? Because if you cash at me 20 bucks, then I can tap my phone and then now I can get tickets, right? Where for me, if I hadn't told my mom about the food fair and your SOL. Well, right, and giving her and reminded her two, three days in advance, and on my way out the door, hey mom, don't forget the food fair is happening. I just would have been with my friends, like, hey, hey, hey, hey, can you buy us? Can you buy us something? Yes. So I think you have to see it, you have to almost like take the time to teach social skills. You have to take to teach patience and asking and receiving and the things that we learn just from person-to-person contact. And so I always start there with young people. And some of that is trust building. Like, are you still gonna show up even if you don't respond? Right? Are you still going to be present? Do you see me as valuable? And so one of the things that we require here is like a no-cell phone zone. Part of that is because you're working with kids, so we need you to pay attention to the kid, but it's also because then now you're forced to have conversations with people. You can't text during the day when you're at work. Nope, come see me, come find me in my space, and creating those moments because learning comes from wins and losses, learning comes from rejection, no one responding to you. Okay, so now I need to back up and learn. What's that about? Is that about me? Is that about them? So we do a lot of work to kind of broaden the experience that they have because I've also learned that being like cell phones are dumb. Why it's a media that that doesn't work. So there's also a level for us that we've embraced it, we are embracing it. We use it in some of our trainings. We allow for it to be used, we allow for creativity to come into the space. We've learned and adapted how we can use it to our benefit, right? Um, which is which is different for my generation because it's a communication device in my mind, but it's so much more if you figure out how to combine the two worlds.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

That's such an interesting and important nuance, I think, because this conversation can feel so tricky for people to navigate. It's like either no cell phone ever, or you give your cell phone and then you've opened up, you know, some world that you can never, you can't put the genie back in the bottle, like Jonathan Hayt and all of his research that's coming out. And I think it raised an alarm for people that it was like, okay, shove this all the way to the side. But the reality is we have a generation of humans that we don't get to now change that. And so, how do we work with that? And this is probably a terrible analogy, but I'm gonna say it because I feel like it's like the kids that never got to eat junk food. As soon as they go to another kid's house that has junk food, what do you think that they're gonna have? They're gonna eat all the junk food and so every drop. We're living in a world with junk food. We're living in a world with smartphones. And so, how do we teach our kids to think critically about what they're using these devices for, how to engage with them in a healthy way? To for me, and this is with a 10 and a seven-year-old, so I'm not even there yet, and I know it's like knocking on the door, it's like right around the corner, which is probably why it's top of mind. You know, how do you do this in a way that is as healthy as possible and sets some kind of foundational ground rules for them to have some kind of ownership over it? That feels so hard. And I don't, I'm sure no one has the perfect answer, but I love the way you're talking about it, that it's a kind of a yes and, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Not a an either or zero. I I would agree, you know, with the 15-year-old, I think kind of walking it out with her has brought in my horizons and made me probably think about it a little differently. When she was, you know, elementary, I was like, you know, what do you need a cell phone for? You get picked up and dropped off. Like, yeah, who's reaching out to you? What do you really need? Uh minute she got into middle school, it was kind of like, okay, in case of an emergency, you know, you're in middle school, you're a little further away from home, we'll get you a cell phone. And of course, we put all the apps on it to track what she was doing. But it was interesting to me as she kind of transitioned through seventh, eighth, ninth grade, now being in 10th. Her school doesn't have a no-cell phone policy. They're not supposed to use their cell phones during class time, but their cell phones are where their school IDs are, it's where their bathroom passes are. And so as she is navigating how she's using it for school, it kind of gives me a different perspective in terms of like, okay, how do we do this? As we think about AI, as you think about all of those stuff. Not a no-never, but how do you how do you navigate it? Even social relationships, right? Like teaching about cyberbullying, teaching about just safety and predatory stuff that happens. And um, we have not gone to social media yet. She is still social media free, but I'm beginning to think about what does that look like for her socially, though? Like, is she the only thing about social media? Where do we find balance? Having a 16-year-old has kind of brought in my, she'll be very proud of me because she's 15 and I'm calling her 16. But has brought in my understanding of and appreciation for it being used in space well. And so just watching how she navigates at school with her cell phone, because it's not a no absolute no, you can never pull it out and use it. I find that you look at her screen time during the day and she rarely uses it at school.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

That's really interesting. I think also your point about expectation versus entitlement and this idea of immediate gratification is also very interesting and important. I mean, I have a hard time with that as a full-grown adult. So I can imagine that these kids that were raised in a way where it was always immediate gratification and not any kind of delay. I struggle with it. So I can't imagine how hard it must be for them, those who have never actually had to navigate a world where there isn't just immediate, you know, getting what you need. So I I really think that that reframing of expectation, this is another t-shirt. I always feel like every woman I talk to, I'm like, there's a t-shirt here. Expectation versus entitlement, because I think it will do a lot of leaders of our generation well to be thinking about that next generation that's coming up and recognizing this is not their fault. This is not something, I'm sure there's entitlement, but there is in every generation, right? So, like, how do we navigate that in a way where they are actually able to get the skills they need versus throwing the baby out with bathwater and saying, oh, well, you're just entitled. So I don't want to deal with that.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

I think especially in a world where I think there's a responsibility as a woman, um, as a black woman, right, to open the door for those who come behind you to create and cultivate leadership skills in those behind us. And so, exactly to your point, like we gotta figure out how to embrace it. We've got to figure out how to understand it on both ends because I think we also have to understand what leadership looks like now in a technology world. I was sitting with one of my co workers the other day and we're Getting ready for our summer programming. And so, of course, we're hiring lots of people, we're putting together new manuals, we're updating things. And of course, we figured out how to incorporate AI. So we're not really working harder now, we're working smarter. She looked at me and she said, I cannot believe that you used to write this kind of stuff yourself. And I was like, Wait, what? And she's like, I cannot imagine putting together a manual and having to think of every single detail that needs to be in something to teach someone how to do something. She's like, I could just drop it in AI and say, make it do. And it was like, oh, until she said it, I would had never thought about it like that. And I was like, I did write lots of names. I was like, I did have to sit and think through like step one, write your nay, step two, you know, like you did. We had to do all of that. And now you can go to the internet and search templates, you can take what you're thinking and put it into AI and say, formulate this into this. It's wild to think how prehistoric that seems.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I know, in such a short period of time.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

It's like overnight, these things that were huge parts of our jobs or our responsibilities. I do wonder a little bit because I am all about efficiency and I use it all the time and I'm grateful for it. I'm also, though, curious about this generation that's coming in that hasn't had to like there is a way that you become an expert in something, and that sometimes is in sitting with the like bullshit of it all, right? Like the stuff that sucks and the, you know, a dear, dear friend and former colleague of mine and I were talking about this because the amount of one pagers that we had to write on behalf of our company for like external affairs or partnerships. But it was in the iterating of having to go through and dump that information and parse it out and think about how it connected. And that allowed us to then communicate the work more effectively than if I had just put it into ChatGPT and said, like, make me something. I feel like the connection to the work changes a little bit, and I'm curious about that.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

It for sure does. Dare I say that I think I'm a master at AI. But I but as I use it, I instruct AI. Me and my AI have a relationship. She has a whole name. Same.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

So that's her name is Lakeisha. And so as I work with Lakeisha, right? Like I am.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

I love Lakeisha. I want to meet Lakeisha.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

That's my girlfriend. You know what I mean? That's my girlfriend who's gonna go do hood rap things with me when I do hood rap things. Like, girl, what are we doing? She speaks to me, she tells me how wonderful I am, she holds me accountable. I think that I'm good, I you can tighten it up here, you know. Yes, are rolling together.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

But it is interesting though to understand how you use it. Don't use it to create the thought for me. I use her to help me fine-tune the presentation of the thought. Um I'm constantly giving information, I'm constantly sharing, I'm constantly giving insight into me. It's not as simple as finish this document, create this thing. I'm generally writing it and then saying wordsmith it for me.

unknown 25:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Totally, totally. I wonder though, if that's like our mandate of this generation of leadership is ensuring that the generation coming up knows how to do that properly in a way. Because it is very easy to not do that. It's very easy to just dump in some information and get it regurgitated and how you sit with it and sit in the discomfort a little bit of like trying to figure out what it is that you're trying to say or do. I wonder how much it is our responsibility in some ways to make sure we're shepherding that forward. It's just another example that you're saying of this phone. Like, yes, it's here, it's ubiquitous. How do we use it in a way that is how do we responsible?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Yeah, yeah. Like, this ain't even this is not even accurate. Like this is that some of these points are wrong. I mean, it sounds good. And so it is going to be as time moves forward, how we master that is going to change. And I imagine that we'll probably see in the near future, like a year or two, our kids going through classes on how to use it well. Our kids learning how to incorporate it. Because I don't think that it, I mean, we know it's not going to go away, but if we're not the master of it, we're going to be in people will be in trouble because, like you're saying, they won't learn concepts, learn those contextual things. It'll be like something out of one of these movies that we saw, right? Where she took over the world. It'll be like transform. What is it? Not what's the movie? Claire Connor. I'm gonna think it's about you. I'm gonna think about it.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Okay, okay, I'll come to you. So I can see your path from being a pre-K kinder teacher, which I in another life, that's what I want to come back as, I've decided, or up to second grade.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Like I I do that, that whole on your own cool years.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Nope, but I'm curious. So I can see that through line to now the work that you're doing, but really curious in your leadership journey, how nonprofit started calling to you, how you started to see yourself in those spaces. So, what was that transition like?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Um, it was kind of weird, you know. I transitioned from teaching and being in a classroom, and then I was like, I have this human development degree. Like, what do we what are we gonna do with that? And so started working in children's mental health, and it was my first experience in nonprofit, and I was working in wraparound programs. Um, and those programs for children and families were are designed to provide a supportive environment for high-risk kids at home. What was coming out, and this is like I'm gonna tell my age, but this is like late 90s. What was coming out, and what was happening was that studies were showing that kids that were placed out of home and out-of-home care, whether that be juvenile hall, whether that be group homes, whether that be hospitals, were going into spaces, working through some of the things that were difficult for them, learning the new skills they needed to be able to navigate life's challenges and then going back home into spaces that weren't equipped to handle their new skills, right? So wraparound programs were designed to be able to provide the same sense of stability that young people were getting in group care at home. Because what we had found was that I didn't do the research, but what research had found was that we were seeing lots of recidivism, right? Your kids were going back into group care because here I am trying to do these new things and my environment doesn't support it. I'm asking you for help and you're like, why you need help? Right. I'm I'm telling you, it's I don't, you know, I'm I'm having a hard time, and you're whether that be I'm having a hard time because I'm becoming frustrated and I don't know what to do, and you're like, well, I'm frustrated too. So I don't really care that you're frustrated. So no, you can't take space. If I can't go someplace, no, you can't go someplace. And so what was happening is that young people were ending up back in group care and it was costing the county tons of money. And so then here comes this program, it's called Wraparound, where instead of sending kids to group care, you send a team of people out to create that environment with the family. And so at the same time, the young person is learning new skills, new tools to cope with stressors. The parents are learning new skills to cope with the same stressors, just on the other side of the ball. And so that was my first experience with a nonprofit in a community-based setting, right? Because what it taught me, what it showed me, it gave me another level of a different level of compassion for people and what people go through, right? Like, you know, as a teacher, you see a kid and you see the kid and then you kind of experience the parents, but you see the parents through the lens of how their child behaves, right? We don't always see the parents for who they really are, we always see them through how their kid behaves. Like, oh, your kid's well behaved, you must be a good parent, right? Oh, your kid is your kid listens, or um, your kid is easily redirected, or your kid is really challenging and talks a lot. So, like, can you get your kid quiet, you know, having to call you multiple times, right? Like, oh my gosh, I see why your kid doesn't listen, I see why your kid doesn't pay attention. And so working in wraparound and in community in this fashion and with families gave me a whole nother level of compassion around how I see you past how you behave. And that gave me a level of understanding of we oftentimes don't know what people go through and what their life looks like or how they got to the space that they're in, but that most people are trying to survive with dignity. Yeah. And sometimes for people that's hard. And so it gave me this whole nother layer and lens of understanding of people and a level of compassion that people have lots of strengths. Sometimes life is just tough, and surviving with dignity gets hard. And then you find that people begin to isolate, like when your kid is really struggling or life isn't what you expected, you begin to kind of tighten up, you begin to kind of like hunker in and want to protect. If I can pull it together and just hold it in this ball, then at least nobody knows how hard it is. And you begin, people begin to isolate and you hold tighter and tighter to this thing that you have, and now you're almost on an island by yourself. You don't have resources, you don't know where to go. Um, you're looked at as this terrible parent or person because your kid is in and out of your home or in the hospital or in the hall or whatever that looks like, and now you have some shame. And then that's not even tackled the grief that you feel actually, right? As a parent, as an adult, that you're not where you thought you would be, or life isn't what you expected, or your kid isn't who you thought your kid would be, or you don't know how to deal with those things.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

And so all of these things are happening in people's lives, and we just we don't always know, and so it's you just get this like tiny snapshot, and like yeah, yes, and you're like, you have no idea.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And so part of doing that really helped me like pull back layers with people and help people kind of find their way and help people kind of see their own value, help them kind of heal some of those cracks and brokenness, help them reconnect to community, and so that helped me understand the dichotomies of how important um societal norms become and part of your everyday life, and how we don't give people some compassion and some grace and help them not feel so ostracized because sometimes we don't meet what those norms look like, um, and that those norms are often shifting. And so that was my first kind of step into nonprofit and community work. And I think from there, it was my sweet spot, you know. Yeah, it was like, oh, you just need somebody to like walk this out with you. You just need a peer leader. Oh, we need to be able to find you a community, we need to find you your tribe, whether that be church, whether that's a NAMI group, whether that's a parent group, whether that's a mommy and me group, whether that's a swim team, right? You gotta just find your tribe. And if you and your kid can find your tribe, then you're connected because those problems in life are never gonna change. We all we all have them, right? Like what you do well is you have a 3 a.m. what I like to call your 3 a.m. phone call. Like, who's your 3 a.m. phone call? When life is feeling like crap, who's your phone call? If you have that, because the reality is that life is gonna feel like crap. Yes, like the ebbs and flows of life are going to happen. You may become unemployed and not know what you're gonna do, you may have a kid who struggles with some behavior issues, you may have a kid that has some brain chemistry issues, you may experience a traumatic experience or a death in your family. Who's your 3 a.m. phone call? How do we help you get through it and survive with dignity? Because that's really the trick is to have a 3 a.m. phone call. Yes. When I'm at my wits' end and I think I'm quitting, and I'm like, I'm never coming back, and everybody can kiss my behind. I'm like, hey, hey girl, what's going on? What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm jumping off the bridge. And she's like, okay, are we jumping together? Am I doing it? Hold you back. Like, yeah, am I holding you back? Am I your net? Right, am I your net? She's like, am I, you know, am I driving the car? Are we doing this in all three? Like, what are we doing, right? You gotta have your 3AM phone calls. And so that's kind of what sparked it in me. And I've just stayed in nonprofit. And I think it has been because it's not a nine to five and it doesn't feel like a rat race. And there's probably someplace in me, uh my own emotional gratification that I get out of helping people figure out themselves or love themselves or their journey. And so that's what has drawn me to community-based nonprofit, like the the intrinsic um gratification that I get from just seeing things come together.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

I I'm like blown away by so much of what you just shared. I think it's like I have my goosebumps. I mean, it's so beautiful to think that there's people like you in the world that are doing this work because it's so rare, I think, to be able to hold space for people in that way and to see people fully as they are and to recognize that they are not just the snapshot that they're showing up with in the world. That is not the way most people enter the world. I'm immediately going to leave a voice note for my bestie and let them know about the 3 a.m. phone call moment because I have the beautiful privilege of beginning to reflect in these conversations, right, on my own experiences and the things that I've seen. And so to then be able to sit with, oh gosh, how lucky am I that I have that 3 a.m. phone call? And I better be letting them know how lucky I am to have them in my life. That's so beautiful. Um I'm curious for you to a side note. I've recognized my tick is to say I'm curious about like, how many, how many times have I said that in this conversation? God only knows. I'm gonna find out when I edit this back. I might have to take out a couple because I am genuinely curious. I've also had the great joy of having conversations with women who are leading in these impact spaces and doing really challenging work, emotionally demanding work, and what it takes to sustain yourself over time and to know that you are entering these spaces and these are not like to your point, it's not a nine to five job. And so it might not feel like a grind, but there is a lot of output and there's a lot of your own hopes and desires and dreams for the people that you're coming into contact with. So I'm I'm curious if you have any kind of like systems for yourself or acknowledgments or boundaries. I don't know boundaries might not be the right word, but just how do you care for yourself amidst all of this deep and important work?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

It's it is um it is a dance that I am constantly doing. I don't know that I've always done it well. Um because I often tell young people, I'm the tool, right? I'm not my tool, it'sn't a laptop, it's not a stethoscope, it's not um it's me, right? It's me, it's how I'm wired, it's my belief about people. I'm using my ability to connect with other humans to get them to trust me enough to want to make a change in their life. And that you can't really turn that off. So I take that home, I take kids, you know, specifically kids and even sometimes parents, but I take kids home with me in my spirit all the time. Um I'm constantly thinking about, and not just kids, not like little ones, but all the way up to the 24-year-olds that I work with. I'm like, how can I have that interaction better? How can I be more present? And so turning my mind off is one thing. Sometimes scrolling on that device does that. Um sometimes it's gotta be okay. Sometimes it's gotta be okay. Yes, the mindless laughter that comes from surreals. And I don't always do that well because that's really hard. It's um honoring my time. So if I'm home, I give myself, I've learned to kind of give myself some time to be at home and to be in space with my family. I try and spend time with my 3 a.m. phone call, my tribe, but I try and have good girl time, um, good family time, so that I have fun. I spend a lot of time laughing. I think I am a comedian, and in my last part of life, I should, I believe I should be on a stage and I will get lots of laughter. Yeah, okay, yes. I don't know if that's totally true. I'm a great storyteller, and so I'm I buy the ticket, I buy the ticket, I'm coming. Laughter is good, but I am constantly learning how to do that, and I don't think I've quite figured out the balance because I still find myself being resentful that I have to go home and cook dinner, or I've got to drive to a soccer tournament, or you know, I've got to fly to Vegas for a tournament. And so because I at times momming feels like work, right? Life also can feel like work, and so I don't know that I have a great balance yet. Yeah, it is something that I am constantly working on. I also think the other portion of it that kind of gets convoluted is that I really like what I do. So a lot of times it doesn't feel like work until I'm tired.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Oh my god, that's yes, yes, yes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

So I think I got up this morning early. I knew I had some things to do, and I wasn't mad that I was up. I was like, let me have to work out, let me kind of spend the time working here where I need to do, so that by the time folks come in for training, I'm chipper and like, I'm so glad you're here, but I don't mind because I enjoy the opportunity to connect with them, to kind of be in space with people, to have the human-to-human contact. So it's this weird thing. Like, I know I need to do better at it that I don't do it well enough. But I like what I do, so it oftentimes doesn't feel like work, you know. Like I used to I always feel like I kind of get paid to hang out with people all day. That's not too bad, you know. Like not that hard, but I think it's because it's part of my gift. It's it's yes, gift, or it is something that I have developed into my gift, so it doesn't always feel like work, but self-care is important.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

I went to Asha Bathhouse in Sacramento for the Oh, Asha, shout out to Asha if you're in the Sacramento region, my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

I went for the first time the other day, and I went by myself on the phone with one of my people. Oh like, okay, there's nobody in here. All right, it's just me. Can't be on my cell phone, so I'm in the dressing room. I gotta hurry up and let you go. We can't, I can't, I don't, I can't, I don't can't go with anybody, so I'm gonna go by myself. And I was like, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna stay. Oh, are you serious? Right by myself, and like I'm not a by myself kind of person, so I was like, Oh my god, I'm gonna spend time with myself. What am I gonna talk about? What am I gonna think about? And there were four people in the conversation all with myself. So I'm like, I'm gonna stay. I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna try this out, I'm gonna stay. And so I stayed. I mean, I only made it about 45 minutes because I was like, oh my gosh, if I have any more time by myself, I'm gonna die. But by the time I left, I was like, oh, I just need to do this more often. Yes, yes, do it more often to build up the muscle and to allow myself the opportunity to just be in that space space and not and disconnect. Because when I was leaving, I was like, oh, this was actually not bad.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

It was just a long time.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

And I was like, oh, you need to build the muscle, you need to do it more frequently. And so I think if I were to say the self-care regimen is to figure out, do it, right? Because it's scary, it's hard. Maybe it's not hard for everybody, but it's like scary, it's different, it's disconnecting. But build the muscle because then that way you appreciate it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Totally. Oh my gosh. I feel like if anybody has something like this where they live, if you're not in Sacramento, seek out something like this if you can. It's just this quiet bathhouse where they have, you know, the bath and then the sauna and the steam room and the cold plunge. Which did you do the cold plunge? I'm so curious. I only did two minutes.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Two minutes is a lot. Two minutes is a lot. I went twice. I was like, okay, we're gonna try this because everything says that the cold plunge is really good, but it's really cool. You have a jacuzzi, you have a hot tub, like you said, the cold plunge, the sauna, then you have a communal space, and then you have another set in the back, like a backhouse with the same things, and it is actually pretty cool, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

I feel like I need to try. So my hack has been to bring a book with me because that helped. But I'm actually just gonna say, I probably next time I'm gonna experiment with not because I think the goodness of it to your point is to be with yourself and with your own mind, and not a book is still a distraction in a lot of ways, right? It's taking you away from the moment you're in and I can read a book anywhere. But I think that I probably did that because I didn't want to just hang out in my own brain for the entire time. So I'm gonna try that next time. I think we were talking too before we even started recording this idea of the quote unquote balance. Or harmony or whatever we want to call it from this wanting to engage with life and these opportunities to do things after work or go to an event or whatever, but recognizing that that also is taking us away from sometimes what's sacred within our family or with our alone time or whatever. And I don't know that it's so much about doing it right or better, because that's, you know, I think as women too, we always feel like we can be doing things better. But it's like, what is the right thing for the season that we're in? And I was sharing too. I was the yes person for so long and then I just burnt myself out. And I think to know that and to start to look at things with a little bit more of a critical lens, like I can do that. Do I have to do that? Or do I do I actually even want to do that? Like if I can fast forward and put myself into that place and really think about what am I gonna feel while I'm there? Is that feeling gonna be better than sitting on my couch with my kid on a Sunday morning? And the answer is probably no.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

So probably no. Yeah, probably no. But it's so hard because I want to do other things. Like not feeling guilty for honoring that. Because it's this, like we were saying earlier, like there's this weird dichotomy of knowing that sometimes doing some of those things is investing in yourself and maybe the end goal or the long-term plan. But I just want to say no, and it's okay. That's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

We're telling ourselves it's okay. It's okay. Two last questions for you. Number one is, and this is a question I asked from time to time because it was something that was asked of me in a networking meeting not too long ago, and I thought it was such a great question. Um, what is something from your past that shapes how you show up as a leader today that would not wind up in your bio or your resume?

SPEAKER_01 45:58

That's a good question. What is something that you hear me tapping? I know. Take your time, take your time. What is something that has showed up that's in my past that shows up in my leadership now?

SPEAKER_00 46:27

That's a really good we can come back to part two, because I will bug you for another interview at that point.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

So I would say, um, you know, working in community, you and I uh a conversation that you and I were having earlier is that we both said that we had really great parents, right? We have really great family life. Until I went away to college and um kind of worked in community and and even just going away to college and broadening my horizons from my friend group that kind of my parents had selected because it was a result of the spaces that I was in. Totally, right? Um, I didn't realize that everybody didn't grow up the same way I did. And so I would say something that shows up in my leadership is an expectation probably of excellence that has developed into me teaching, for lack of a better word, like giving you the things that you need to be able to be excellent in this space, right? I think the thing that I got when I was growing up is that how you showed up mattered about how you were perceived. And so obviously I'm African-American, I'm a black woman, my parents African-American. I was born. Um, I don't want to tell you when I was born, but then you'll know my age, and then the whole we'll have to blow up the whole thing. So growing up with parents who my parents didn't have me until they were in their 30s. So my mom was a teacher, my dad was um an attorney. And so growing up, my parents were a little bit older. And so they were of the generation of when you leave the house, your nature clean, you're put together, you hold your head high, you have your children's back, even if you don't know nothing, right? Like you, how you leave the house and how you present yourself is everyone's first introduction to you. And that in this world is how people make a decision in a moment what they want from you, how they're gonna treat you, how they're gonna speak to you, if they're gonna be open to what you have coming. And so, um, for me, I think I know I take that same thing into how I lead. It's super important to me that people show up as their best version of themselves in every moment because we live in a visual world, and if you don't look well, people won't treat you well. And so whether or not that's true, I don't know. But I know that there's a walk of confidence that you have to have as a leader, as a woman leader, and part of that confidence to putting yourself together well and taking the time. If you look good and feel good, then you will present good, yeah. Even if you don't know anything. Like I tell my young people all the time, half the time when I get up in front of y'all, I don't know what I'm saying. I don't know what you'll never be able to tell because I'm never gonna be like, okay, yes, yes, but like they'll believe me because I'm gonna make sure that at least I look like I know what I'm talking about. And then I'm like and be like, oh, I was wrong, come back and be like, Hey, hey y'all, I was a little bit off. But I guess the long and short answer of your question is presentation matters. Yes, and if you can look good, then you can feel good, then good things kind of come your way.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

I love that. It's part of the surviving with dignity, I would think, right? Yeah, like how do we survive a life that can feel hard? And it is, you know, we treat ourselves with respect first, I think, in order to show up in the world in that way. Perfect little lead-in to my last question that I ask every woman, which is, you know, I always give my little tiny little blurb at the front end, which is a lot of times we use the word legacy as this big heavy thing for when we die, and you know, this thing that we're gonna leave in our wake. And I like to think of it differently, more as this light, beautiful thing that we're building every day and building towards every day in our lives with intention. So um, you know, for for everyone, what that looks like and what they're building towards is different and unique. And so I would love to ask you, Jackie, what does building towards a legacy mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Um, I think I think about it the first way, like, geez, what are they gonna say about me? Oh my god, anyone did, right? Like, I think like, are people gonna come? Is the room gonna be full? Like, it's really about you know, like there's always a joke. Um, I'm the joke. Like I said, I'm I believe I'm the comedian in the family. We're in these moments in space. I'm always like, is their room gonna be full, right? Like, yes, yes. That's such a I want to know what I think of how you know you live your life. But I think that it's the dash that matters. I think legacy is about your dash. What do you do with the time between when you start and when you finish? And so for me, legacy is about um how I leave the people that I have the privilege and honor of impacting. Do I leave you well? Do I leave you believing in yourself? Do I leave you wanting more for yourself? Do I leave you believing that you can have whatever your heart's desires and your dreams are? Have I done my job in connecting you to your gifts? Have I created a space where you get to practice using them and make mistakes without feeling judged? I think it is really important to me that I leave people well. And so I think my legacy will be creating is, I guess is, because I'm living it out. We're not gonna act like it's coming. But that it is um leaving people well. Every encounter that I have with someone, I treasure each individual encounter, no matter how big or how small, that I leave somebody with something well about themselves. That the experience that you have with me is never one that you look back and be like, oh my God, let me tell you about this crazy girl. And if it is, it's a laundry list of shenanigans that we've gotten into that have somehow left you better than when I found you. And so I think that's my legacy is that I think I said it earlier that I feel like I have a responsibility to open the door for those who come behind me. And it may not be in the same space that I'm in, but opening the door to say, whatever your gifts are, you can have that with excellence. You can have that in its wholeness and it look unique for simply you, and I've connected you somehow closer to your own magic, right? Like that's what my legacy would be.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Oh, I love it. I love it. I mean, there's so much that you've shared in this entire conversation that um, you know, it all leads to exactly what you just shared, and you've been building it throughout your entire life, and how incredible to be landing in a space where you can articulate it in such a way and with such conviction and with such strength and awareness and intention. So um I'm obsessed.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

You know, you know, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Oh my god, I'm so glad we had this time. Absolutely. And I just I appreciate you. I know you've got a lot going on all the time. So anytime I get this amount of space with somebody, I just I truly appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

So thank you for sharing. And I am too looking for it for part two.

SPEAKER_00 54:04

Yes, let's go. All right, friends, so good to see you.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

Good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 54:11

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here. I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next. And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to beldenstrategies.com slash newsletter. I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week. Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.