Successful Businesses Don't Choose Between Impact and Income

What if you could build a business that refuses to choose between making money and making a difference - and that treats the people you serve like the full human beings they are?

Melissa Camilleri is the co-founder of Stand for the And, an education company that supports people to develop, launch, and facilitate scalable learning experiences with their IP. Their both/and philosophy isn't just a tagline, it's the foundation of how they sell, how they work with clients, and how they think about impact.

In this episode, we get into ethical selling, the identity reckoning that comes when experts step out from behind a title or institution, and what it means to stand on your own work. Melissa also shares her remarkable origin story of how she became an accidental entrepreneur in the middle of divorce, grief, and a leave of absence - and why she believes creation is the antithesis of destruction.

What You'll Learn:

⭐ What it means to build a business on a both/and philosophy 
⭐ Why ethical selling starts with giving people their full agency 
⭐ The two unexpected transformations every expert goes through when they go out on their own 
⭐ What visibility really means when you no longer have an institution behind your name 
⭐ Why your most "disparate" experiences might be your greatest competitive advantage 
⭐ What legacy looks like when your mission is to fan people's flames

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction 
02:00 What is Stand for the And? 
07:00 Ethical selling and pain-point marketing 
19:00 Giving people their full agency as buyers 
21:00 The two big transformations experts don't see coming 
25:00 Visibility and standing on your own work 
28:00 The line in the sand moment 
29:00 Getting to know yourself again 
32:00 Going back to your childhood self 
41:00 Building at a forever pace 
43:00 Melissa's origin story 
46:00 The leave of absence that changed everything 
48:00 Creation as the antithesis of grief 
54:00 Your squiggly background is your superpower 
57:00 Legacy: being a mirror for others 
1:01:00 Kids Bowl Free PSA

Resources and Links:

Find host Kristin Belden:
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinbelden/
On her website: https://www.BeldenStrategies.com
Sign up for her newsletter: https://www.beldenstrategies.com/newsletter

Stand for the And
Website: https://www.standfortheand.com
Connect with Melissa Camilleri on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissacamilleri/
Check out their Substack: https://substack.com/@standfortheand

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hi everyone, welcome back to Kind of a Big Deal. I'm your host, Kristen Belden. If you've been enjoying the show, please hit the subscribe button. It helps more awesome women like you find us. Today I'm sitting down with Melissa Camillari, co-founder of Stand for the And, a company that helps people develop, launch, and facilitate scalable learning experiences with their own IP. It's built on the idea that you can make a real income and make a real impact, and that the people investing in your programs deserve both. Melissa has been building businesses for 16 years, and she brings a former high school English teacher's belief in people into everything she does. She's also the kind of person who, after a two-hour coffee, you feel like you've known your whole life. In our chat, we get into what ethical selling actually looks like, the identity shifts that come with stepping out from behind an institution, and what it means to be a mirror for people so that they can see their own light. Meet Melissa. Hi Melissa. Hi, how are you? I'm so good. It's so good to see you.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Likewise.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

So Melissa Camillari, quick little introduction. She is another one of those women who you instantly feel like you've known for your whole life. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that she's incredibly warm, she's generous with her knowledge, and she's really quick to be the first one to smile and say hello. And I think sometimes we take that for granted, but ultimately those people in the world, you just can feel it from a mile away. That's the energy that she brings. Um, we had been connected on LinkedIn, so I didn't know about that energy until recently when we met for the first time in real life at a dinner hosted by another amazing mutual friend, um, Jill, who was actually on the show. She uh had a dinner called The Badass Women Dinner. And Melissa absolutely embodies that energy and the badassery that comes with being part of those conversations. And when we sat down for coffee, we realized just how deep into the past our mutual connections run, um, like all the way back to college, maybe even before that, actually. High school, because of your yes. Um and sitting down with her for a few hours felt like five minutes. Like it just, she's got so many incredible stories to share, and she's such a connector. She's had an incredible journey, and really, to me, has been what I have seen the epitome of what it means to build a life and a business with intention. Um, so I know folks are just gonna get so much out of what you share. So thank you so much for being here.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Thank you so much, and the generous um intro. That's so nice. I feel like I could say all the same exact things back to you. Same.

unknown 3:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Um, well, let's start with the present. You just shared, which I did not know. You are in your 16th year of building businesses, and that is a good run. Like it's that's like you, you you're doing it. Um, but the latest iteration, Stand for the And, a little more recent. And has it been about five years that you've been building that iteration of the business?

SPEAKER_02 3:32

Yeah, August will be five years of Stand for the End with my business partner, Angela.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Amazing. Yeah, well, let's start there. Let's talk about what is the work that you all do and what do you care about?

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, so um, before we started the business, it's like when the seedling of the idea came up, um, both Angela and I had been working freelance as um contractors and other people's organizations, and we had shared a few clients back and forth. I had um the background for curriculum instruction and facilitation of online programming. She had an operations background, and we were just sort of doing that in tandem, and we realized that so much of what she was doing was contingent upon understanding what I was doing, and so much of what I was doing was contingent upon what an understanding of what she was doing behind the scenes in these other people's businesses. And so about five years ago, this is uh, you know, 2021, where things are just starting to open up. We had just got out of like, you know, this weirdness of the pandemic, and a ton of people were starting businesses at that time. And we said, you know, our clients are sort of getting confused about the billing and like who's doing what, because we're always on both calls and we're, you know, we're finishing each other's sentences, you know, about like what's needed for growth and stability in people's businesses. And so we decided to create Stand for the Anne Education Company. And the work that we do is an intersection of business and education. And that's where that, you know, the ampersand that I'm wearing comes in. Standing for the and means we're always operating on a both and philosophy, not either or. And what we had noticed in the industry, especially like in online coaching, online learning, the people who were teaching how to develop courses, for example, were teaching it from a marketing standpoint and how you make a lot of money with courses. And what was being left out is the instructional design. Like, how do you ensure that the people who are taking your courses actually get what you're promising them? Like the results, the transformation, the they can actually do what it is that you are sharing, that you're teaching, not just because it worked once for you, and then you have this great idea that you're gonna make all this money, but that you can have an impact and you can make a great income. And what we had been seeing in 2020, 2021 is that all these people who are like, oh, maybe I could teach a course on how to make sourdough, or maybe I could teach a course on, you know, um leadership or women's empowerment or whatever, that it was all coming from the end goal being the income. And as somebody who has a teaching background, that just felt very gross. Like how can how can we only look at the people who are investing in these programs as dollar signs, as opposed to it can be both, and it's like a very um lucrative and smart way and sustainable way to grow a business through you know educational resources, but also you have to look at the impact that you're having on people's lives. And if it's not driven from both of those things, then you're you're really doing a disservice to the people that you're teaching, but also the industry as a whole. And we've sort of seen that over the last, I don't know, year and a half with AI and people saying like online courses are dead. We don't see that with our clients. We see the the impact when you marry the impact that you're making with the income, that potential, that that's where the real magic happens. So you don't lose out on that human component. So Stand for the End, you know, to make long story longer, is really about both and so you can be present parents and successful in business. You can, you know, make a great income and have great outcomes for your people and make a significant impact. You can be somebody who wants to do really good in the world and include yourself in in that by also wanting and and being able to create some more financial and time flexibility in your life. So that's what it means to stand for the end.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yes, I that is so beautiful because I think we've talked about this, but I don't know if I like really dug in here. I mean, I 2023, when the business I was working for imploded, and I was searching and seeking and really felt like I didn't have uh an anchor, right? So I was in a pretty vulnerable position and a vulnerable mindset, and I felt total prey to like so many.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

Of course she did. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Like, you know, do this. And anybody that was offering what felt like scaffolding or something to like grab onto in that moment, I was like, yes, like help me, right? And that is the part that I struggle with the most, I think, now, as I consider what it means for me to be building my own business and what I'm putting into the world. I never ever want it to be that. And it feels like there's so much of it now, it's really hard for people to necessarily weed through like what's gonna actually provide a transformation versus what is something that someone is just saying because it sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

And I don't necessarily think that everyone is like, it's not like predatory behavior necessarily, right? Some people really think that they're doing good work, but I think some aren't. And it's really hard to know which one you're getting.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

It is.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Um, and so I'm curious for you, as you're bringing in clients and as you're looking at their IP and considering what you know, courses or what content would make sense for them. Are you able to kind of tell right away who's coming in with that like true intention? Or is that something you kind of have to weed through as you're getting to know the client?

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that early on in our business, before we had our marketing messages to where they are now, we were saying, like, there's so many, you know, like I don't know how we we didn't say this technically, but the message was you have probably spent tens of thousands of dollars on things that didn't provide any sort of support for you. We're different, we're actually teachers, and we're gonna show you how this works. And what that did was attract a certain kind of a client who had felt who I don't know if they felt this way, or it was just the prevalent thought process I've been victimized and therefore I'm looking for a savior. And um, I think a lot of us have that without maybe even naming it early on when we're in those vulnerable states. We're like, well, who is there to trust? I trusted that I was gonna be in this organization forever, that I had this long-term plan, and the rug got pulled out from under me. So when you're in this vulnerable spot, you aren't your most empowered self to be able to discern and tune in and decide. So we don't get very many people coming to us who are like, I just want to make money quick, and you need to be the quickest way. Um and there have been people, and we have gotten way better at recognizing what those for us are red flags and saying we're not your right people. If you want to work with us, you know, like this is our process. And so our process is slower. We do not, we don't make any sort of mention or implication of get rich quick. Our message is really geared to experts who have already spent decades in their industries or in their field of work and are ready to make a leap into having their own sort of platforms. Um, we're not cheap. So we aren't attracting people who are just looking for the best deal or who are in a place of desperation of like, I just need to make money, show me how. Um we don't we don't really attract those as much. Now, I will say, recently we had an inquiry call with somebody who had all of the trappings of success, a a strong social media presence, um a pretty like well-known, established job that was very public. So they had a name for themselves and a lot of credentials behind them. And um basically asked us to create a proposal which uh fast-tracked results for this person before a very quick upcoming deadline for them. And so our proposal was not cheap because, in order to have delivered on this, it would have taken us all of our resources to do what we would normally do in six months, in four weeks. But we said, you know, we can do it, but it's gonna cost, you know, this much. And after multiple conversations around this proposal, this person ended up saying, actually, I can't pay you anything because I've already invested hundreds of thousands of dollars on solutions that didn't work. So if you're not willing to do this for me in exchange for fame, essentially, like I'll mention you on all of my platforms. We're like, no, we don't work for like I don't know who you think you're talking to, but like we're not desperate for you. Like that it was so audacious. And but we don't get very many people who don't want to invest in their platform at this point, you know, yeah, because I think our messaging is clear, and also it's like we're not saying yes to everything, and therefore our discernment is activated, which I think allows other people to take their like we're not pushing you to make a decision to work with us, and therefore people can like rest their nervous system and make a choice without feeling pressured into it, and that alone allows people the opportunity to really make a thoughtful decision of whether they're or not they're gonna invest in this way in the kind of help that they want for their business.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

I mean, I know it sounds a little crazy, but it's literally a radical way of approaching it because I feel like everyone, it's like big sale now. If you don't like decide to do this thing, like, you know, then you are you're gonna miss out and you're gonna like be destitute. Like that, it's literally that level of messaging sometimes that I feel so off-putting that I'm like, I don't like what it's so bizarre to me that that has become the common practice, and it's a totally different thing if you have a beautiful product that you're like, hey, I'm gonna cut the price for a little while to get more people in the door. Whatever, there's different, obviously, ways that you're approaching that messaging, but this like used car sales-y, like, get the deal, it's like so weird to me.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Super weird, and like if that's your sales strategy, is to override people's own inner wisdom and be so aggressive that they can't hear themselves to decide, there's something messed up integrity-wise, you know? And so if we go first, if Angela and I in our business and Stanford, we go first and lead with integrity, we typically at this point are attracting people with that same kind of integrity who value the same things that we value, and therefore, it's a mutual commitment to one another, it's a mutual partnership as opposed to I'm putting all my eggs in your basket and you better save me. Um, I don't want that energy anywhere around any of our client relationships.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah. Do you have a perspective on um, I feel like in addition to that kind of pressure level related of sales in these spaces, anybody who's engaged in these spaces will know what I'm talking about, right? And it might not make sense to everyone that's listening right now, but I also have noticed this like push on the pain, push on somebody's like bruise essentially, and poke at the thing that hurts the most. And I also am really having um some like real pushback internally in my own body to that kind of marketing as well. Like I don't, I it's one thing to solve for a pain, right? And this is where I want to be really careful with the way I'm talking about this, because I also recognize like people, when you're looking for a solution, there is a challenge or a problem or an issue you're trying to solve for.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

But this level of I'm gonna make sure you know how like in pain you are in order to show my value so that you'll buy this thing from me. Are you seeing that places too, or am I just hyper aware of it?

SPEAKER_02 17:24

No, um I see that all over the place. So part of what we do in Stand for the End is help our clients with what we call human-centered sales approach. So it's like really just trying to recognize that it's people who buy, it's people who are in business. And tech amplifies all of that, but it's really a human being, you talking to another human being. And if you have a solution that can actually really solve something for a potential client or a customer, then it's your actual moral imperative as a human to offer that. And it's okay to charge for it because we just put money on things that we value. So the more you can talk about the solution or the transformation or the point B that you're getting somebody to, like they're at a point A, and there's discomfort is very motivating to take action. So, in order for them to go and try and find a solution for a problem, there has to be a level of discontent. So if you're not speaking to that discontent at some point, in some way, shape, or form, then you're probably not making very many sales. Like you have to talk to that discontent. But I think where it stops for a lot of people is just pushing on that pain without getting specific about what the solution is and how somebody is actually going to have that pain point solved. And many people, um, I think in their marketing, because they see what other people are doing, will just kind of brush over how they get you to a solution. And it'll just say, imagine feeling at ease and peaceful and blah blah blah, you know, and it's just like very um uh fluffy language without any sort of like concrete, this is the process, this is what I'm doing to support you through this. Um, whatever that point A to point B transformation is. So I do think you become more hyper-aware of it once you realize that you have fallen into that trap before, and then you're like, oh, is everybody doing that? But then what ends up standing out are the people who are selling the thing to solve the problem that you have, but are doing it in a different way. And your nervous system, when it's regulated, can recognize that in marketing language. And so, like everything, it's never either or. It's not, should you talk about the pain point or not? It's both and like of course you have to, but you also have to talk about the solution and then give people their full agency as human beings to make that decision whether or not this is the right solution for them and trust that people can make that decision.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Mm-hmm. Yes, stand for the end. It's yes to end. That's right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

It's like literally that philosophy, standing for the end, or both and it permeates every part of our business and how we approach things. It's just it takes some explanation.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

No, but I love it because it's so important and it's such a necessary space that you're filling because I think so many people approach it from a I have the best solution, and this is what it's gonna be, and XYZ, black and white. And I just don't think that's how our world works. It's not how we as humans work, it's just there's more nuance than that. Yeah, and I think you all are the first people I've heard really speak into it in this way, in a way that feels really compelling, and in a way that feels like people can show up with their full integrity and authenticity, and that is huge for people. I'm sure the folks that you work with go through their own level of transformation as they're building out, you know, whatever it is that they end up focusing on.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Because if they get to show up fully as themselves, right, then that likely shifts even the way they're thinking about the work and what they're putting out into the world.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Oh, for sure. I think one of the biggest I see two gigantic um transformations within our clients that they don't realize that they're gonna have, and we don't really even speak to ahead of time because um I'm not sure that before people become our clients, they they recognize that this is gonna even recognize that this is a thing. Totally. But oftentimes our clients are coming out of academic. Or a corporate role, and they've had a ton of experience, but they're behind the safety net of an organization. And so they've built all their expertise within an organization, and that's how they've gotten credibility. That's how they've been published potentially. That's how they, you know, their LinkedIn precedes them. That's how they've gotten speaking events because they have the safety of the title of whatever that company is. And when you go out on your own, there is almost every single one of our clients has gone through this. I don't know how to be visible on my own without saying I work for this company. And all these people who used to work for this company or teach at this university or whatever are gonna see that I'm talking about this stuff. And what are they gonna think? And these are people with lots of letters behind their name, but it's the what will they think about me that seems so trivial that that is so pervasive in the experts that we work with. And um, building up the confidence to stand on your work as opposed to standing on the name of the institution is a huge transformation. But that's not very sexy on a sales page, right? Um, but it is very transformative as a human.

unknown 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

And then the second thing that we see a lot of is going from the safety of a salary and what that salary has previously done for you in your life and this certain level of comfort, but also like where you send your kids to school because now you have the salary to pay for the school or the neighborhood that you live in, et cetera, et cetera. And then what does it look like to actually charge when it's you standing on your work? And how do you receive that money for the value you provide when you're not um in the safety of your institution? Those are two, it's the visibility and it's the receiving of the money. And this is not the same thing as imposter syndrome or not believing that your work matters because every one of our experts is like, I know I do excellent work. I know that what I do matters. I know that more people need this, but there's something about taking the leap and waiting for that net to appear that shows up around visibility and around money that I think that we um really, really do a good job of holding that space because we've gone there first. My and we, meaning my business partner Angela and I, we have walked that path first. And so we understand on a visceral level what it means to send out that first proposal and go, like, can I even charge that for this when it's just me and it's just like my name? Like, I don't have that many Instagram followers. Yeah. Where we think that that's somehow is like gonna give us more.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

I know. It's so it's so terrible. It's such a like insidious issue that I see all the time as well. Like, how many LinkedIn connections do you it doesn't matter? Like no, it doesn't matter. I mean, it matters in some ways, of course, but like not in the ways that I think we think it does. Right. The visibility thing, I think I just continue this, it gets circled around in so many different spaces all the time. I think this is a conversation with women that I have of what does it look like to be visible in a way that feels okay for me, and in a way that again feels authentic to who I am, not just like I'm putting more drivel out into the world that like I don't actually care about. And I think it will become more and more important that we are tapping into that who we are, what's our identity, how do we define ourselves outside of the title, outside of the organization, because we all know that our world is gonna look different in five years, if not sooner. And so, how all of these things that we think of from a stability standpoint or what we're used to, or the comfort of what feels stable but may not be stable forever, doing the work now, I think, to really tap into that and dig into that in whatever format that looks like for you, even if you still have a full-time job. Like digging into those questions that can feel really uncomfortable, I think is the important work of the moment to make sure that you feel like you know who you are and what you stand for. Because I I'm the one that hit the brick wall and didn't have those answers, right? Until I was forced to. And I think what I'd love to see for women now is make the choice to engage with that when you have the choice, not when it's like slammed on you and you just and you have to do it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Right. And I think that is um such important work and it's never ending. It requires so much like recalibration at the different phases of your life. Like I know when I left the classroom, when I first left teaching um in a tr, you know, a public high school, I was a high school English teacher, that was so my identity. And I went through a huge identity shift. And I at the time I also was going through a divorce. So it was who am I if I'm not a teacher and I'm not a wife? And I had to like really reassess what makes me me? Like, what do I even care about? What are my values? And can I still care about education and how people learn if I'm not in the classroom? And what does that look like? And you know, like what makes me me? And then becoming a mom later on maybe shift and say, like, what do I care about? Does my calendar reflect what I care about? And how am I spending my time and where am I putting my energy and how am I spending my money? And is it reflective of my values? And all of that I think is super important if you don't feel the push to do that now, to still engage with that conversation, like you're saying, so that if and when the S hits the F, you know, the S hits the fan, as they say, or you hit that brick wall, like you're talking about. I call that the line in the sand moment where it's like before times and after times, right? It's like you're a different person, and in some ways, because what you see is so different, but in other ways it's the truest you you've ever been. Yes. If you can find who that person is again underneath all those layers that we've put on ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

100%. It's the like, I I like to say it's the letting go of what no longer serves you and doubling down on what still does, and being able to decipher that takes time, you know. I think not we haven't always been taught to look at ourselves in that way, to have that level of self-awareness, to even care about ourselves well enough to actually give ourselves that time, right? It's we're in service of so many things and so many efforts outside of ourselves. Yeah, a lot of the time that to do that can feel really uncomfortable. And I remember at first being like, nope, like I don't want to go there. I'm not ready to I don't want to ask myself that. It's uncomfortable, it's so uncomfortable, but I have found also thrilling as you start to like get to know yourself again. There's these little things that come up that you're like, oh, whoa, I forgot about that. Or this is this thing that I buried for so long to be in service of whatever thing I was chasing at the time, right? That yeah, wasn't serving me then. And to come back to all of that can be really fun.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And it's can I ask you a question? I'm so curious. Like, what is something that you have been surprised that you double down on? Like you let go of so I know all the letting go story just from us like becoming friends, but what's one of the things that you're like, oh hey, I forgot about that?

SPEAKER_01 30:18

Um, I think two things. One, the forgetting was, you know, I come from a creative background. I was an art major. I have this pull to creation and to building, and in some ways, like I almost went to school for creative writing, and I forgot that I love the art of storytelling, and I forgot that I love to write. I forgot all of these things because it just wasn't a part of my world for so long. And part of what I've been trying to do is listen to those polls, even if it's not fully strategic, even if I don't have a plan to like build to a thousand million subscribers. I started a newsletter, and it was just to like test it out, see how it felt. And I was like, oh, this is now one of my favorite things that I do all week because I love to write. But I totally forgot about that. It was something I had just completely buried for so long. So that was an interesting one, and then I think something that I didn't forget but didn't realize, I had spent so much of my career as the second hand, as the person that was executing on someone else's vision that I never saw myself as innovative or you know, somebody that could build the big dreams or the big ideas because I had never put myself in that position. I was just the one translating everyone else's vision into reality. And so I really built up an internal persona that that is who I was, and then through the process of pulling back the layers, I'm like, wait a second, maybe that's not the full truth, right? And it doesn't have to be that that is like, you know, you're throwing the baby out with bathwater, and I'm not that person at all. But I think it was allowing myself to ask that question of, well, what does that actually look like now that I'm on my own? And I think that's another thing that you're talking about with your clients, like when you're out on your own and you're really having to stand fully bare in front of the world and going, okay, you know, it does I think require a level of allowing yourself to see those things, maybe some of your natural talents or strengths that you just haven't been tapping into.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Because it's not what got you to climb the ladder in your former life, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Totally. I think that there's so much um truth that is buried in our childhood. Like, what did we do for play as kids? What brought us so much joy as kids, and that we just kind of abandon as we grew up. And um in looking back at that, it was a little bit confusing when I left the classroom because I was like, well, I always played school. So clearly, my purpose is to be a teacher. I would line up my dolls and my stuffed animals, and I would have a chalkboard easel, you know, and like teach them the lessons that I had just learned in kindergarten or in first grade of like teaching my stuffed animals to read. And what's interesting is that even though how I'm doing things look different, like I'm not in a public school, I don't teach adolescence, I'm still teaching every single day. I also used to write for fun. Like when we would go to the toy store, like Toys R Us was, you know, it near where we grew up. Loved it. Um, and was able to pick out a toy, I would pick out the set of pens and a pad of paper, and I would write. And so getting back to writing, and now I'm able to do that and express, like we just started a substack literally, like over the weekend. Congratulations. Yeah, that's so great. And it's like, oh my gosh, yay! It's like long form musings are now having a comeback because I started this business when blogging was the thing, and then it all like devolved into short form video, and I'm like, I'm not cut out for this. I I need conversation, I need like to meander a little bit and daydream, and that is when I have found in my adulthood that I am at my best, is when I'm teaching, when I'm writing, and when I've given myself enough white space on my calendar to daydream and dilly-dally.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:52

Because that's what I did as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yes, yes, but we forget these things, right? We forget. I okay, two things that I don't want to forget. One is did you ever read the artist's way?

SPEAKER_02 35:03

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Okay, so you know what we're talking about, yeah. Which is Julia Cameron has a lot of um theory around this exact thing, which is creating that white space, but she calls it the artist date, which is you know, find that one time in your week that is just for you. Yep. Where she says you quote unquote woo yourself. And she talks about how when she teaches this, she also does something called morning pages, which is you wake up every morning and you, you know, write for three pages or whatever. And she's like, when I assign that, people are like, I got it. Because like we're a very task-oriented, productivity-minded check it off a list. So it's like, oh, I can write three, you know, morning pages. Absolutely, I got it. But when she tasks people with this one hour a week of just being with themselves and going to do something for themselves, she's like, it is like a nightmare for people because they can't even think of what they would do half the time. Like, I have to get them to like, yeah, really think. Like, what's something that you always says, what's something that you would have been drawn to as a kid.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Um, and start there, right? Because that will help lead you, I think. And so I think that that's just another way of thinking about not another way of, but it reinforces what you were talking about before we started recording. I had asked you, you know, how you're building your business with intention in this season, and we're entering summer, people have got kids and you know, schedules and the all the things. And when I asked you if you're able to take a little bit more space to be with the kids over the summer or to slow down a little bit, your answer was that you and your business partner have built with so much intention from day one to create something, and I know you said it's a borrowed phrase, but the forever pace. And that is so rad because I think you know, that is not always the way we do things. And it's so hard. I I fall into this rap all the time of I'm building and I love it, and it's exciting, I want to do this and like it's it can be really tricky to remember, like, it's okay, it does not have to be at that level and that pace all the time.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

But I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what that means to you. Hey, quick pause before we get back into it. If you're listening to conversations like this one and something keeps nudging you, like I know I'm at some kind of turning point, I just can't quite see it clearly yet. That's actually exactly what I do. I work with women leaders who are in the middle of something a career shift, a business that's ready to evolve, a moment where what got you here just isn't cutting it anymore. Sometimes what you need most isn't a whole program or a big engagement. You just need a few hours with someone who can help you see what you're too close to see yourself. That's the clarity session. It's a focused, one-on-one conversation where we dig into where you are, where you want to go, and what's actually in the way. You walk away with real direction, not a list of homework, but genuine clarity on your next move. If that sounds like what you need right now, I'd love to talk. You can find all the details at Beldenstrategies.com slash clarity.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Yeah, okay, so over the course of decade and a half of building business, what I have learned is that the most um uh grief comes from things not happening on the timeline that you want. It's this disordered relationship with time. And I should be further along, I should have made more money by now, I need to spend more time on my work, but the kids need me. I wish I could spend more time with my kids, but my clients need me. It's just this very like unhealthy, abusive relationship with time. And time is our only finite resource. You can always make more money. Always. If money runs out, you can make more. You know, time is the one thing we absolutely cannot get back. And it took me a very long time. You know, I mean you even said, like, wow, like this is so incredible. I'm like, don't let me fool you that like I came out thinking, well, let me build a business. But I have a very healthy relationship with time. It took like probably eight or nine years and becoming a mom to two very short in in short order. My oldest two kids are 13 months apart, and there's nothing that messes with your brain more as a business owner than I have all of these ideas, and I physically do not have the time to implement them. And so when Angela and I decided to create this business, both of us had already been in business around 10 years-ish, and both of us already had children, and we were both homeschooling because it was coming out of the pandemic, right? And so we had made the decision at the time we wanted to continue to homeschool our kids. And it required us to plan our business around our life. So when we are coaching our clients now, we start from the very beginning. The very first thing we do with every single one of our clients, whether they're coming in through a course or we're working privately one-to-one with them and building something for them, is we do what's called an intentional inventory, where we look at where are you currently spending your time? How do you want to be spending your time? And then how do we basically backward map a business that allows you to live your life in accordance with what you value? Because otherwise, people come in and they say, I want to make a million dollars, and you're like, Okay, but like what? Like for what? You know, why? And and how do you want to even live your days? Do you want to work all the time? Or is it like we were talking about super luxurious to read a couple chapters of your book in a hammock in your backyard at you know, 11 a.m. on a Tuesday? That's the life I want to live. So my intentional inventory is gonna look different than yours. And the key to building a business intentionally, so that your summers are always how like the way that we operate during the summer is the way that we always want to operate, which is life and family first, because those are our shared values. It starts with understanding how you want to be, not how much you want to make, but how do you want to be in your day-to-day? And then what does that look like? Do you need time every morning to go for a walk, to go to the gym, to do your yoga stretches and sun salutations, to read? Like, what are the things that are going to allow you to build this over the long term? Yeah, and that is what a forever pace is that you plan ahead of time for all of the things that you need to feel alive, and then you build your business around that. And your forever pace is also varied by the season. So, there, you know, like when I had my third child, I had already had this business and we had to shift some things. Angela had to take some more things on for a season until I was at a place where I could reintegrate slowly. And so having a business partner has definitely helped in that. Although I I don't have any like super tricks for having a business partner. I think that it's just like a marriage where there's like, I look at my husband and I go, I don't know if I could do life with literally anybody else on the planet except for you. And I feel like that about Angela too.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

It's like that makes sense. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

It's hard to have a partner in things, but we couldn't do this if we were not a partnership. That's the that's the other piece of it. So that contributes to our forever pace. And there's something, though, to be said about anything in nature that gets created, including a business or including a new offer or a new way of working with people, takes a concerted amount of energy output for a time. It's not forever, but it's for a time to get something up like an airplane gets lift for a time when there's a ton of energy lifting it up, but then it coasts when it's up in the air. And so to remember that, there are gonna be seasons where you are pushing and you are working harder to get something off the ground, but then you can coast. When you're riding a bike up a hill, you have to get up the hill. So you have to like really work at it for a second, and then you can coast downhill for a while. But that knowing when you stretch out your timeline and you can have a little bit. Bit of future vision or future casting, you see that everything goes in seasons, and then you can plan for those. And I think that's what a forever pace means is planning ahead.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

I love that. I think so much of what you know you talk about, it really is just about getting intentional. And I love what you just said about like your, you know, truth is not getting the same as my truth or someone else's truth, but it requires taking the time to actually get intentional about it to understand what your own version of that is. I want to take you now, then, all the way back to you touched on being a high school teacher. Major inflection point, right? When you are moving out of that identity, navigating a divorce. Um do you think that you had an awareness at that point that entrepreneurship was in your future?

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Or definitely not.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

So maybe share a little bit more about kind of what that transition time, what did it look like to evolve then into building a business for the first time.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

Okay, so never like I I joke that I'm an accidental entrepreneur because I didn't even like have lemonade stance as a kid. I have I had no sense of hustle at all. I was always a hard worker, but I was a hard worker in school. And so becoming a teacher made so much sense because I got to be in school forever. It was just so great and my perfect fit for a career, except for the fact that when you are somebody who doesn't have clear boundaries in any job, it can like chew you up and spit you out. And in teaching, in particular, no matter what your personal life, what's happening in your personal life, when you show up at 7 a.m., there's a line of kids waiting out your door, and you have to talk to 150 children. They show up every day. It doesn't matter if you're having a bad day. You don't get time to sit down and do all your emails and have an easy start or tell people, oh, don't talk to me because I'm having a bad day. They're there, 36 kids every period, looking up at you, going, What do we do now, miss? You know? And so um, I didn't know how to manage my energy. I didn't know how to say no to things. And that was happening at the same time that I was in a really terrible relationship, married to somebody that wasn't my right person at all. And I didn't know that at the time. This person also taught at the same school where I was teaching. So we were living and working together, and he always wanted to start a business. So I actually started my first business because he did. He said, We need a business, and I was making jewelry for fun because I'm a creative, right? So I'm like, oh, I'll just make these rings for myself. And it ended up turning into a scholarship fundraiser for my students, and it was my ex actually who said this should be a business. We can sell this and make money, and we were gonna do that while teaching. And when everything just kind of um like happened at once, so we ended up getting a divorce, and I had three deaths in my family within 90 days. I also moved schools and moved homes, and so it was just a ton of change in like three months to the point where I was seeing a therapist and was like, I don't think I can make it to school anymore. Like, I can't keep on showing up in the same way. I have no energy, I have no capacity, I'm barely getting out of bed. And she said, What if you took a leave of absence? And I can tell you, at 32 years old, I called my parents and I called my best friend, and I said, Do you think I can take a leave of absence? And asked permission.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

I get it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

And I am a completely different person now, where I'm like, Why did I call that? Like, what was I thinking? But I have so much tender compassion for the old me to say, Oh, you had no self to even be able to make that decision when you like I would not have made it if it were not for my therapist saying, take a break. Like, you can do this, just just take a break. So I took a leave of absence, and like I told you before our call, the very first day that I was supposed to report back at school, but I had a sub in because I thought I was gonna go back to teaching. I woke up at 5 a.m. and I, in the divorce, my ex said, You can have this stupid business, it's nothing, anyways. You have $500 in the account, and I just want $250 to bleach my teeth. True story. True story. And I was like, no, and I'll take this stupid business because there was something in it that was bringing me so much joy. And so during this time of like deep, deep grief, I mean, grief of my marriage, grief of moving, grief of moving schools and everybody I had like grown my career with, um, losing friends in the divorce, and people who I was very close to and loved dying very suddenly and tragically with no warning. It wasn't like people were sick, it was like very weird freak things that happened. Um, I realized that creation was the antithesis of death and destruction. So, my little seedling of a business, I was not motivated by like, well, if I could just make this much money, I can quit my job. It like saved my life. And Angela and I talk about this all the time. Business can save your life. It gave me something to put my grief into to create, and creation got me through the grief, and I was storytelling during the time I had no idea about digital marketing. I had no idea how to sell stuff until a teacher that I was friends with, we didn't teach at the same school, we had worked in this other organization together, and he and I were on a plane to go and do a teacher training, and I was telling him, like, I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I don't know how to sell anything. And he goes, No, that is where you're wrong. Because as a teacher, every single day you're selling ideas to the worst audience who doesn't care about anything, and you're great at that. And so all you need to do is have that same conviction and tell your story, and you're gonna sell it because that's really what it is is just people connecting with your story. And that has stuck with me. I don't even know if this guy even remembers he had this conversation with me on a plane to Wisconsin, but that is what we talked about.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

That's crazy. Like there's people also that you have affected in the world that you have no idea, right? It was just like a random conversation.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

Yeah, but it totally stuck and it made me understand like, okay, if I just keep telling this story that I'm selling these rings to raise money for first-generation college students, and here's why, and here's the brand. I mean, with within months, I could say to my district, I'm not going back. And I figured out how to run a business. And it was uh people had me on podcasts back in the day and saying, now tell us how you started and what was your what was the turning point where you knew you could leave teaching? I'm like, there was no turning point. I have I I don't know, I would have been taken under if I kept on doing it. I had to change the way I was doing things, and there's me that I see all the time that says, like, um, I you wouldn't have moved unless I kicked you. Love the universe, and that is that's what it was. I was kicked so hard that I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll start a business. You know, I didn't see it for myself, and then I realized, oh my gosh, I come from immigrants who made something from nothing here in the US and made great money and built families here not knowing a language and then learning and figuring out how to sell stuff, and so it's in my DNA. I just I didn't see it until I was there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:39

I think that happens to a lot of people, and we don't hear that story enough. I think so many times the trope is the lemonade stand story, or I was, you know, reselling candy bars for a profit, or and all the stories are valid and wonderful. Totally. I don't think we get to hear the story so much of I fell into this thing, or I started this thing without the big grand vision, or I started this thing out of necessity, or right, like there's something so powerful to that because I think it shows people that you don't have to have created a business plan or thought through every nook and cranny of what you want to do before you just get out there and start trying something, and to just allow yourself to try the thing or to do the thing out of necessity or whatever it is, right? Same for me. I didn't start with it was like I massive upheaval, I'm not going back to that, so I'm gonna start something. Yeah, like okay, see how it goes, right? And I think that there I like being able to talk more about that and have people hear that because I think we can stop ourselves from the experimentation or the trying of things for fear that we're not gonna get it right the first time. And I'm sure your business evolved many times over, and you're now putting something out into the world that has nothing to do with the physical product, right? But it had to start somewhere, right? And you got to learn and like cut your teeth in all these different ways, and every lily pad leads to what's next, right? Everything you learned in those years, I'm sure now show up in ways that we're not even totally aware of sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Um I have an interesting revelation about that that only happened within the last couple of years, actually, because for so much of this entrepreneurial journey, I felt like a fish out of water. Because when people asked me what I did in like these online spaces where I was learning, I felt like everybody knew business. And I was like, Well, I'm a teacher, so I whatever. But I'm also a writer. Did I tell you I have an MFA in creative writing? No. What? Oh my god, I do building our kindred spirits. I know, we totally are. So I um I got my master's degree in creative nonfiction writing, and so I understood about even when you're telling true stories, there's character development, and you have to like demonstrate, you know, if there's people in your stories or in your essays, it's really helping understand what their motivations are for their actions. As I'm learning to write, the craft of writing, what I don't realize is that when I get to business, I'm an excellent marketer because I understand what motivates people because I studied characters in creative writing. And I realize this after so many pivots that like did not make sense. If you look at my story from, you know, start to finish, it's like, why would that be the next choice? I mean, this is like the like the old saying about a plot is like it doesn't make sense as you're going forward. But when you look back, all the points connect. It's like, well, of course. So the reason why you're good at this is because you had this totally disparate training that doesn't make sense. But for so long, I carried this apology with me that's like, well, I don't really know about how to do that. Well, I don't, and it's like, no, I'm a freaking expert, actually, because nobody comes to this work with the same background that I do. And so there's this really awesome book by Pamela Slim called Body of Work that I recommend to all of my experts and the consultants and the people who have come from a different industry and are starting out on their own or building something new outside of that safety net of academia or their corporation or whatever institution they were in. Because this book helps you take into account your whole life curriculum and how none of it is an accident and all of it makes you that unique you. I mean, I had people in the early days of my first business come to me and said, Who have you hired for your copywriting? I'm like, What do you mean, hired? I'm not making anything. Like, I'm barely getting by. It was me. And they're like, Can you write my website? Like, I thought you were a jewelry designer. But I felt so embarrassed that I didn't have a certificate from the Gemalogical Institute of America. I don't work with diamonds, I'm working with bees that I'm buying full price at the bead store. I had literally no clue and was always a fish out of water. But only recently, like, I've been at this so long, I've been like, you know what? That's actually my superpower that I wasn't trained in the same ways that everybody else was because I bring something so unique into a space that wasn't built for the people who I'm serving.

SPEAKER_01 57:56

So might you say that you're kind of a big deal?

unknown 58:00

No.

SPEAKER_02 58:02

It's like when uh our friend Jill, who had us at the badass women's dinner, she's like, Can you please explain why you are a badass woman? I'm like, okay. I mean, can I tell you how many butts I wipe today? Like, my kids are they their kids are super humbling, right? So am I a big ass deal? I don't know, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

No, but I think what I'm trying to get at is you're you've entered a season of owning your story and of being able to see the through line or recognize what those lily pads were bringing you to. And the wisdom comes from being able to see things in hindsight, and we don't get to do that, I think, or we don't even take the time to do that necessarily, and so to hear you be able to share it in a way with like so much conviction and an awareness of the moment is so cool because we don't always have those moments, and so for others to get to hear that, I think is really empowering because I've I've had the same. Like, I had a squiggly ass career that when I look at when you look at it, you're like, what the hell was that?

SPEAKER_02 59:11

Yeah, like yeah, why why did I make that choice?

SPEAKER_01 59:14

That seems weird, yes, or but like throughout all of that, you're still honing the special skills that make you who you are. I think so many times we look at industry versus the skill set that's being brought or totally. Totally. So I think that's really it's really beautiful the season that you find yourself in. And it's really cool and exciting. If I'm not careful here, I'm gonna take up all your time. So I want to make sure I get to ask you the last question that I ask everyone, which is around legacy. And yeah, I think legacy can kind of be this buzzword sometimes and make us think about what's gonna happen when we die and what we're leaving behind, but I like to think of it more as this beautiful light thing that we're building towards every day, and there is nothing about building a life with intention that doesn't somehow point towards a legacy at some point. So I'm curious, Melissa, what building a legacy means to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

Um, I'd actually thought a lot about this because it was really easy to pinpoint when because I had such direct feedback when I was in the classroom and teaching adolescents at like such a tender age, helping them make decisions for their life and their life trajectories. I would get a lot of feedback like you made a big difference in my life, or um, you were my favorite teacher, and then being connected years later and getting invited to people's weddings, and there were baby showers, and you know, somebody asking me to be their godmother, like those that's that to me is like I I will never ever regret my years in the classroom. And and there's times where I miss that aspect of it where you're getting feedback all the time from the lives that you've impacted. And I think having now worked with I mean, literally thousands of adults, the way I know I'm making a difference and leaving a lasting impression or a lasting legacy for people is when I can be a mirror to them and help them see the light in themselves and believe that their ideas matter or that their work matters or that they matter, their words matter, what they're doing is worthy of time and attention. And sort of like the story of the guy on the plane who might not have any idea that those words saying, No, actually, this is who you are. And me going, oh my gosh, he's actually right. I needed that mirror because we say this all the time, Angela and I, um, in working with our clients, you can't read the label from inside the jar. So if I get to be that mirror for somebody and help them believe in themselves and their work and their own goodness and their own worthiness, then I feel like that's a life pretty dang well lived. And I think the worst possible thing that a human can do to another human is make them doubt. I think doubt is so insidious and it dampens our it like puts, you know, a shade over our light. And I hope to be the opposite of that. I want to fan people's flames and and be an encourager and say, This is an awesome idea, and hell yes, you can do this. Go out and do it like if you have a spark, it's within you because it's for you. It's meant to be that breadcrumb is meant to be followed, that flame is meant to be fanned because like I have absolutely no dream of you know running a data center, for example. That's not for me, that's not what my life is about. But I do daydream about like creating gathering spaces and running retreats. Well, that's because that's for me. And I we all need each other to be like, that's a great idea, go for it. It's crazy, it's so crazy, it's gonna take a lot of work, go for it, and that's the kind of legacy I want to live at least.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:18

Hell yes, yes, yes, and it's you're doing it, like that's what's so beautiful. It's happening already, and I think it's so clear and apparent. It's the energy I was talking about when I was introducing you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:30

It's just so obvious that that's how you want to be in the world, and that's how people receive you in the world because that's how you show up every day, and that is such a testament, I think, to living a fully aligned life, right? With how you want to be and also what you're building. So um, I'm just so happy that I get to call you my friend now.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

Same! Oh my gosh, I know. We were just talking like we have to go and get lunch, ASAP, and then get our kids together for bowling. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

If anybody's in the Sacramento area, Melissa just told me about a free bowling. No, it's nationwide. Oh, oh, even better. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:13

So you just look up kids bowl free. No, it's kids, it's called Kids Bowl Free, and it's from April to September. And you just have to look at the bowling alley that's near you on their website. And so, like, you it's like broken down by state, and I looked up which one's in Sacramento, and there's one near us, and we're gonna take our kids bowling together for free every day over the summer. I know. I mean, we're not gonna go bowling every day, but it's available every day over the summer. It's like talk about an awesome program. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

That's so I am like so thrilled to have done this through you. So I'm sure there's others that are looking to how they're gonna build out their summer with their levels.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

So I should call them up and see if they could give me some affiliate uh experiences. It's free, so they're not making any money. I just want everybody to know about it. So kids bowl free, everybody. Incredible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Um so good to chat with you. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Same thank you for having me. Soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here. I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next. And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to Beldenstrategies.com slash newsletter. I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week. Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.