What If Burnout Isn't the Price of Caring This Much?

What does it actually take to stay in mission-driven work for the long haul - not three years, not five, but a whole career? In this conversation, I sit down with Kate, a workforce development strategist who's spent nearly two decades working across policy, philanthropy, and the private sector to build more equitable pathways into good jobs. We talk about translating complicated systems into human language, why certain skills will always matter more than what AI can do, and what it really means to build a legacy.

Kate leads strategy for a national workforce development organization focused on getting young adults without a four-year degree into good careers. Her path started with two years in AmeriCorps' City Year program working in one of Boston's lowest-performing middle schools - an experience she credits with shaping both who she is and how she approaches the work today. 

She's spent her career since translating complex policy and data into language that actually moves people, all while staying deeply intentional about sustainability and self-care in work that could easily consume her.

What You'll Learn:
★ Why simplifying language builds more support for a cause than expertise ever will
★ What human skills AI can't replicate, and why they matter more as automation grows
★ How to build a sustainable career in mission-driven work without burning out
★ Why legacy isn't a someday thing, it's built in how you show up today

Key Insights:

Say the Quiet Part Out Loud
Kate's biggest professional lesson: jargon doesn't convince anyone. Whether she's talking about economic mobility or "making America suck less for poor people," the plainer the language, the more people actually invest.

The Skills AI Can't Touch
As automation reshapes the labor market, Kate points to the deeply human skills - reading a room, gut-checking what feels wrong, navigating conflict - that her young adults are already building through real-world jobs, and why that's an underrated advantage.

Sustainability Isn't Optional
From her very first job, Kate built boundaries most people don't set until burnout forces them to - no weekend work, protected recharge time, real rest. It's made decades in hard, emotional work possible instead of unsustainable.

Legacy Is a Daily Practice
When asked what legacy means to her, Kate's answer wasn't about scale or recognition, it was generosity. With time, attention, and money, built one relationship at a time.

Timestamps:
00:00 – Reconnecting and introducing Kate
04:00 – What Kate's focused on today
09:00 – Why simple language beats jargon
14:00 – AI, higher ed, and leveling the playing field
22:00 – Starting out in the 2008 recession and AmeriCorps
27:00 – Building a sustainable relationship with work
44:00 – What legacy means to Kate

Resources and Links:
Book a Clarity Consult: https://www.beldenstrategies.com/clarity
Subscribe to Big Deal Energy, the newsletter for folks navigating what's next: https://www.beldenstrategies.com/newsletter

Connect with Kristin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristinbelden/

Connect with Kate on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/katenaranjo/

If this conversation resonated, follow the show and leave a review - it helps more folks find these stories!

#KindOfABigDeal #WomenInLeadership #CareerEvolution #WorkforceDevelopment #MissionDrivenWork #Nonprofit

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hi everyone, welcome to Kind of a Big Deal. I'm your host, Kristen Belden. I'm bringing you this conversation with Kate, which I recorded a while back and have been excited to finally share. Kate is someone I met years ago when our organizations were both working on equitable workforce pathways, and someone I've admired ever since. She has spent her career across policy, philanthropy, and the private sector, all in service of economic mobility. And she has an uncanny way of taking complex information and making it feel accessible. What I love about our chat is how Kate talks about hard, complicated systems in completely human language, and how she's built a career in mission-driven work without burning out, which is rarer than it should be. If you're new here, hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And if you've been around a while, thank you so much for being part of this. Meet Kate.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Hi, Kate. Hi, Kristen. So good to see you. So good to see you. I feel like it's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

It has been a very long while. And um actually, in in part of my reflection before we were jumping in together, I was thinking about um that we've known each other for some years now, but like we haven't been connected formally for some time. And I just feel so grateful that you're still in my life in this way.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

You know, it's funny, I feel like there is something about the like people you formed relationships with in the early pandemic that I feel like really there. I have a number of them that are like still around, right? Because you were sort of, it was almost like you were trauma bonding of like, how are we gonna get through this? What are you seeing? What am I seeing? How are we gonna like survive this absolute chaos show uh of a year, two years? Um so it's a gift that we've stayed connected, and also I'm not surprised given the circumstances we met in.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

That's a really good point. I didn't even I didn't even think about when I was putting my thoughts together for you. Um so quick introduction of Kate. So we met when our organizations that we were working for at the time, which were both focused on creating equitable workforce pathways, um, or because we're looking for alignment and kind of the work that we were doing and you know, potential partnerships and whatnot. And she is literally the person that you want working on these types of issues. She is like crazy smart, super, super passionate about creating an equitable workforce, uh, an equitable world, I should say. And she's just like an absolute joy to work with. And so I feel like you don't always get that whole combo. And she's someone who um I don't know how to say this, and I don't mean it in a patronizing way. I feel like I just can't wait to watch your journey unfold because to see the impact that you've already had and the impact that you will have is just really phenomenal. So um, anybody who is interested in the types of topics that we're gonna dig in on today, absolutely fine to her, follow her because she is an incredible voice in this space. So just thank you so much for being here with me today.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Well, uh, as you can probably imagine, I'm like feeling physically uncomfortable at that level of complimenting. Um, but I will take it, I will take it. Um, and yeah, it's it's a it was a joy to get to know you through our like chaos work together.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah, it's and it's kind of the point, right? Is um it you know what it's funny, when I started the show, I did not mean for it to be the point. It is the name of the show, right? Kind of a big deal, which is my tongue-in-cheek way of talking about the fact that we do tend to brush off our compliments and downplay our wins as women. Um, but in getting to introduce these women that are in my life that I find so incredible to get to reflect back um to you how amazing I think you are, is it's such a fun part of it. I'm like, we could be done now. All right, that's good, cool, done. Stop recording.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

You know, I'm just not the first person to say this to you. But as I was sort of like reflecting on spending this time with you, I was like, like, am I kind of a big deal? Like him, like, is that do I identify with that as a label as part of who I am? And I had to like get I had to like get over my imposter syndrome of accepting that like maybe I have something useful to say about careers and being a woman in the worst place and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Oh my gosh, you have so much to say. Uh in our little preamble, even before we started recording, you had so much to say, and you have such an articulate way, you have such a thoughtful way of expressing your point of view, and I think that that is rare. You know, a lot of times we can like verbal process or we need to like work things out. You have such an intentional way of sharing what you want to share, and I think that's a real gift because the spaces that you're in are complicated and nuanced and layered, and I think sometimes that can kind of push people away from those places because they're not sure the language to be using, how they should be talking about it, right? So to have someone who can just speak about it in such a human way, which is that is the work, but it's not always the language that we use. So I think that's something that makes you so unique in this space. But for people to kind of understand a little bit about what I'm saying, maybe let's uh just start with the present day. So, what are you focused on now? What's the work that you're leading? Um, let's just start there.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

Yeah, so I work for a big national workforce development organization that helps young adults 18 to 29 get into good jobs through partnerships with our corporate partners. Um most of our organization is focused on the direct service work uh of getting those young adults into careers. And I am focused on the sort of thinking about what's next for us as an organization, where we want to go, whether that's new markets or new products or finding solutions to existing products. But I do a lot of thinking. Uh, that's my primary job these days is um, you know, I have a coworker who's sort of tongue in cheek called me Kate GPT, um, which I think is pretty funny. But, you know, my my skill set really lies in like, okay, I take in a bunch of information, qualitative data, quantitative data, talking to people, building relationships, and then I sort of spit out recommendations on how we should move forward. But I I appreciate you saying it about the human way because I think ultimately, like one lesson I learned in my career, um, which I'm sure I'll talk about at some point. I have worked very closely with executive leaders, and at the end of the day, we're all just people, right? I've like watched people who um are a really big deal, right? And I'm like, oh, I know how you take your coffee, and it's with way more sugar than I thought was possible, right? Um, and so that sort of like guides my approach to work all the time. It's how do we get to the root of people and how do we think about what's best for people? And how do we, in my case, like make sure that young adults get the opportunity that they deserve, which is everything. My young adults deserve everything. And I think that's sort of a through line from my career than very mission-focused and really focused on economic mobility. So it's a delight. It's a delight to get to work on these hard problems and figure out how to talk about them in a way that's gonna make people understand and be persuasive. Because it doesn't matter how smart your thoughts are and how good your recommendations are if you can't explain them to a normal person.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yes, it's like how are you actually using real life language, which is hard to do. I think, especially as an academic or somebody that is, you know, a thinker and is in books and data and all of the rest. Truly a skill to be able to translate that to someone who, right? Like when I was in the workforce space, that that was a new space for me. And so I really felt like I was taking just like a master's course on what I didn't know what a workforce board was, right? Like there's so many things, and I'm like, well, what's that? It's really fascinating actually to on to start to get a peek under the hood of how these systems operate that are actually creating the systems that we live in. And you have no idea the forces that are behind that, and sometimes good, sometimes not. But I think to be able to, the people that I loved learning from were the ones who were able to share it in a way that it didn't feel like I needed to get my dictionary out every five seconds to understand like what they were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

And I think sometimes like those of us who live in this sort of you know policy data world, there's a temptation to make it more complicated than it is. There's a temptation to be like, look how smart I am. Don't I know everything? I have this, you know, big, big data set or these big jargony words that explain something, but I think that's actually not bringing anyone to our side. That's like not convincing anybody to actually invest in the issues that I care a lot about. And I think learning how to talk about things in a normal personal way has actually been the competitive advantage across my being able to say, like, okay, how do I take something that somebody thinks is complicated and say the quiet part out loud? I think that's been really important to me. Um, you know, I often say that my professional North Star is to make America suck less for poor people. Oh, wow. That's a good yeah. We're all intentionally chosen, right? But I think sometimes we get lost in this language of like economic mobility and creating opportunities and underserved communities and you know, even unhoused people. And language does really matter. I don't want to sort of like gloss that over, but at the end of the day, it sucks to be poor in America. And wouldn't it be great if we could all just say that and work on it together instead of those of us who are in this work, right, making it really complicated and trying to find the exact solution. And um and I think that that sort of simplicity I think attracts more attention and sort of gut level investment, right? I think that emotional investment that you hear when you hear somebody talk about like what what it's like to be poor versus like, oh, I'm trying to create economic mobility. What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_02 10:45

What does that mean? I know, yes, a hundred percent. Yes. I remember when I was at the org that we were just talking about we were looking to create these tech ecosystems, and I'm gonna pause here because we literally could not figure out what we wanted to say next. We started with under we started with underdog cities, and then it was tertiary cities, and then it was blah, and it was like, what are we trying to say here? And it is that it is in these geographies that are typically yes, underserved, under underrepresented, but also, yes, more often than not, not well resourced. And so I think that to say these things in a way that allow for us to actually dig at the heart of the issue is so important because yeah, it's easier to gloss around it with the big words that people are not actually connected to. I think that's another important distinction when you were talking about the young adults that you serve in the organization that you're with. Um can you speak a little bit more about like who you look to support in your work?

SPEAKER_00 11:48

Yeah, so we only work with young adults or primarily work with young adults 18 to 29 who don't hold a bachelor's degree, who come from low-income families, which those are lots of labels that are sort of deficit-based, right? Like, oh, they don't have money or they don't have education. But who we really work with, if I take away the sort of definition of who we serve, is these like incredibly motivated young adults who have not had the same level of opportunity as their rich peers, and we offer them the opportunity to get in front of Fortune 500 companies and get a job. Many of them have been in and out of college, many of them have, you know, not great experiences with the school system, but they are so motivated. And I know this gets overused and like gritty, right? As a part of my work, I actually get to coach a cohort of young adults. So even though my day-to-day job is not direct service, I get to stay involved with young people. And we have meetings at 8:30 in the morning on Mondays, and at we end at 2 p.m. on Fridays. Those are my two sort of like primary responsibilities. And if you told me that those two time slots would be the time slots that my cup would be fullest, I would like laugh you out of the room. No one likes Monday morning meetings and no one likes Friday afternoon meetings, but the level of kindness and care and dedication to improving themselves and each other is so incredible to watch. I often say it's like I get to be in the passenger seat watching somebody change their life. Um what a gift that is. Uh oh, yes. Yes. Yeah, I could talk about them all day. So I was gonna say so.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

I feel similarly, you know, it's we talked about that a lot too, a bit wise. When people were asking questions around why they would hire from this cohort of apprentices that had gone through our programs, and a lot of the conversation was around like this is not, and the fact that people don't actually understand this is a major part of the problem, I think, clearly, which is this is not a lack of talent or intellect or ability or any of the things that would make somebody incredible at this job. It's typically all of these essential services surrounding them that do not allow for that environment to create that space for them to thrive. So whether it's transportation issues, childcare issues, food insecurity, whatever the thing might be. So, how do you address some of those, you know, kind of wrap-around services to ensure that folks can actually show up and be their best selves? And I think we see that playing out in a number of different ways in different communities across the country. But um, to your point, what a gift to get to be a part of the system that helps folks actually get to thrive in the ways that they're meant to. I'm curious, gosh, I'm curious about so many things. You know, one, when you were just talking about addressing and supporting folks who likely don't have the four-year degree. And as you see so much of the conversation around higher education is shifting and evolving and changing, especially with the advent of AI and how fast everything is moving. Do you see this as an opportunity to level the playing field a little bit? Or do you see it as being another thing that's gonna widen the gap even further?

SPEAKER_00 15:22

Yeah, it's a good question. I think like the short answer is I have no clue. Right. Um the the long answer, whatever that I can give you is um a couple things. One is the playing field has always been deeply not level, right? Higher education does not pay off for every person who goes in the same way. I didn't leave college with any student debt. That is wild. It offered me a number of career opportunities that I wouldn't have been able to take if I was looking at big student loan payments on the other side.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And if you're a student who's graduating with $50,000, $100,000, $200,000 in debt, well then I, you know, you take a different kind of job, you look to different kinds of opportunities. If you didn't go to a flagship university with a fancy name, your degree isn't worth as much in the marketplace, right? So I think there's something, I'm I'm glad we're having a conversation about what the purpose of higher ed is and how we can start to think about making sure this sort of like equitable promise delivers, right? I think that conversation has been going on for a long time, but we are at this moment of transition. And so we're really, I think there's there are a lot of really smart folks in the higher ed space who are thinking about how do we make that transition go smoothly. What should we be doing? I've been really encouraged to see the community college space, I feel like has been really thinking pretty hard about this. And community colleges and systems like the CSU system create way more economic mobility. There's that word again, than the sort of like fancy liberal arts school that I went to. There's just it's greater access, it's all that. I think in terms of like will I mean AI is gonna disrupt everything. I have no smart answers on how that's gonna happen, but I am really convinced by the sort of data and narrative that's beginning to emerge around what are the things that only human beings can do, right? Yeah. I think about being able to read a room and convince a group of people to do something. Maybe AI will get so good at that one day, but I think that being able to pick up on like micro-emotional moments with a very human. I think the problem solving and gut checking and sniffing out that doesn't feel right, right? Like AI can't right now say, oh, that doesn't feel right, or oh, that that piece of information feels wrong for whatever reason. AI just like spits out information at you. And so I think there is something about how do we use those deeply human skills and then let AI make our lives better in the things that are like very boring and uninteresting, right? Like I'm like, let me have AI for my expenses and let me have that brain power back. And I think that's true. You know, I think that's one of the things that I've observed is many of my young people have experience in some sort of customer service job. And that kind of people navigation, problem solving, conflict resolution, keeping a cool head when somebody is hearsing you out, like those are skills that my young people are getting that I think could help them have an advantage in the labor market moving forward. They don't have to sort of like learn that. They've learned them tile by fire. They're not graduating from college and being like, oh, I actually don't know what to do if this person doesn't agree with me and it doesn't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

That's happening more and more, what I understand too. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

And if you've never worked on a team with people you don't like in graduate college, and you're like, oh man, I'm a space with all these people who don't look like me, who think differently than I do. I think that's a space where people who have experience in these really, really, really tough jobs are gonna start to shine. I hope at least we can help decide.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

Yes, I love that. And I couldn't agree more. I think for anybody, my husband and I say this all the time. Both of our kids will work in a restaurant or in a service-based capacity. Like they're that's not gonna be a choice. That's their education as far as I'm concerned. I spent years in the restaurant industry and I loved it. I still love it, but it does. It does, I think, shift the way you think about what it means to number one, be of service in some way and to learn to read the room, to check your ego, all the things. So I love that. I also love this conversation that's happening around community colleges. I'm here in Sacramento, as you know, the Los Rios community college district and all of the work that's happening in their K-12 partnerships are incredible and they can be more nimble.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

They are not cemented into this institutional way of being. And so they get to be responsive to workplace partners. So they say, oh, we're gonna have a gap in this in the healthcare industry. Okay, great. Well, let's spin up a curriculum and train people into jobs that are actually gonna be there, not the ones that we thought were gonna be there 50 years ago, right? So, like it's pretty amazing, all of the innovative stuff that's happening at that level.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

I mean, I also just think it's a moment where you can't rest on your reputation. Your reputation is, especially higher ed institutions, nonprofits, governments, all of that is being offended by what's expected in this new reality, right? And so community colleges have never been able to rest on their reputation in the same way. LC Berkeley or UCLA can that degree is going to be valuable and they don't have to change anything about it. But a community college is really thinking very hard. Uh, and you know, there's like policy factors that are changing what they're doing, there's incentives that are changing what they're doing, but they're thinking really hard about how do I actually make this degree as valuable as I possibly can for these young people. And I'm willing to change anything about myself, anything about the way that I am structured to make it work for those young people to serve my core constituency. Um, and that's really cool. It's really cool to watch the colleges meet the moment in a way that some of the four years are not right now.

SPEAKER_02 21:48

Yeah, yes, it's exciting. I think it's exciting from a just that it doesn't have to be that this is the only way. And of course, that is your entire, you know, premise and mission and what you all are doing. But don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I love I love higher education. I think it is deeply important. I think I sometimes I worry, but you it's like crazy to have to say that, right? Like I think there is just this lack of white thinking that we all love to engage in. Or four-year or workforce development organization or apprenticeship or this. Right. What if they were all good options that got different people with different needs to the job that they want to do? Can you imagine fulfilling?

SPEAKER_02 22:27

What kind of world would that be? It's like truly, though. Yes. I mean, the fact that we have such a hierarchy of value as it relates to career and X is better than Y, and anything else, you know, I mean, that's just like a that's a whole other conversation.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

But I'll come back to that later.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yes, tell me part two. I keep telling every woman I have a conversation with like part two, because there's no way we're gonna get through everything in this short amount of time. So maybe let's rewind all the way back to like your early career days. Um, you know, you've worked across policy, philanthropy, private sector, and all in service of this economic inclusion that you've been talking about. But when you started out, where were you when you first jumped into your career?

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Yeah, so I graduated into the 2008 recession from college. You love it. Yeah. Uh and there's a little a lot of my friends and I were sort of grateful to have any job. And so I was not slim pickings out there, which I think really colors the way that my generation thinks about work. So we can put that aside. But I was like, I come from a military family. We have a very long service-oriented background, and I was like, the way I want to serve my country is through AmeriCorps. I did two years of AmeriCorps with City Year, first in Boston and then in Sacramento. And, you know, it is the hardest job I have ever had in my life. I had to leave my house at 550 to be on the bus at 555, to be at school by 640, and then do it all in reverse 12 hours later, working with young people in middle school, the lowest performing middle school in Boston at the time. And I think what was so useful about it for me was I had learned a lot about inequality in books through volunteer work. And I hadn't lived it every day. Like day in and day out watching students struggle to get to school on time, you know, to fight with the transportation system, to learn English, to operate in a system that was like deeply failing them. I think really is the foundation of both who I am as a person and who I have become as a professional. Because when you get up close to how deeply unequal this country is, it's hard to look away. Um especially, you know, I I took the bus across Boston through very high income and very low-income neighborhoods. And and that inequality just really, really struck a heartstring for me that I can't let go of. And and I mean, I also was living on $12,000 and the way America was structured, I was eligible for Snap. So I was dealing with the bureaucracy of the public policies of this country. And I was like, wow, I am seeing all of these things up close and watching how badly they fail people over and over and over again. And then, you know, I I think one of the things that that was important to me then and is important to me now is I want to be in this work forever. So did a lot of thinking during that period of my life of like, okay, how do I make this sustainable for the rest of my life? How do I make sure that I am taking care of myself so that I can do this work for many decades and not get burnt out after like three or four years, which is really common. I think it's a big problem in the nonprofit sector, but I was really, I remain really committed to figuring out how to not to do that.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

That is so interesting. I don't know that I've heard um from many who had that spark at such a young age, where it was like, I clearly have a vision for where I want to be and how I want to make an impact. And maybe you didn't know exactly how that was going to look, but to know that that is how you wanted to dedicate your time and your career, a lot of times it takes people many meandering, squigs and squags and zigs and zags, myself included. And neither was right or wrong, but it's really compelling to hear from someone that had such a uh pivotal moment happen at such a young age. And I think, especially as you were just talking about what you need to do at this very, very young age to understand that you know that you need to take care of yourself while taking care of others, and how so what does that look like for you when you think about what you need to do for yourself in order to show up fully? Do you have like very specific ways of thinking about that?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, you know, it's funny, even back then, I mean, I have unfortunately been like this my whole life. I like knew I was gonna do mission-driven work. I was very involved with this organization that worked with homeless young people in high school. And, you know, actually, I think one of the things that City Year really did for me was it taught me a lot about my own position in the world around race and privilege and who I was, and it helped me really get clear on my values, which I think is actually like how I got to the taking care of myself part. I think it was very clarifying for like, okay, if this is really the kind of work I want to do, if this is who I want to be, um how do I like have a relationship to work that feels healthy enough? And obviously, this is I there have been times when I've been better and worse at it, but of course, but even then I remember we would get out, we'd be done with school, and like the kids would have all gone home by like 5:30. And there was a big cohort of people who would go back to the office at 5:30 p.m. and keep working on stuff and come home at nine or 10. And even at like 22, I was like, oh no, I am going home, I'm going to the gym, I'm gonna like cook a dinner, and then I'm going to bed and I'm gonna do it all over again. And because I think for me, there's being able to have it's like Maslow's hierarchy, right? To have my basic needs met meant that I was much better at the things that I was doing day to day. Like if I got good sleep and I was well nourished, it meant that I didn't constantly feel like I was fraying the ends of my rope uh in really emotionally difficult work. And so still to this day, many of the principles are the same. I'm pretty careful about closing my laptop at a certain time. I have several yoga classes that I go to every week, do or die. I never work on the weekends. I try to be really intentional when I have to travel for work, right? I like try to make time to, we're just talking about this, like go on walks and work out, move my body. That's been really helpful for me. Be around my family and friends. All of that, I think, has made this kind of work really more sustainable for me than lots of people find it. I think it's it's tough though. You know, the fighting against it is like there's always more to do. I wish I could be doing more all the time. What is enough is a question that I ask myself a lot. Um, but I can't boil the ocean. And so I've been trying to be really intentional about how do I spend time, which is, in my opinion, the most precious resource that we all have on this earth, so that I can really give my best self to my job and to the people around me and to my friends and family. Like I want to be the best version of myself. I think it also helps, frankly. I'm an introvert by nature, and so I have to have that recharge time, which I think folks who are a little more extroverted don't feel that pull to like read a book for two hours or go on a walk by themselves. And I really do. And I think that's actually that sort of like innate sense of needing alone time has helped me build the practices that keep me sane.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

I love that. I feel like, yeah, I was just as you were saying that, I'm like, but why is this so hard? Like, why is it so hard? Because even those of us that are aware of it or you know know the things we sh maybe should is not the right word, but could be doing to take care of ourselves. Like, I know what the answers are. I know what they are, but like everything I have to actively choose that. Why it's not the natural response. My natural response would be well, there's like 75,000 other things doing like that. And I especially if you're in mission-driven work, it's so, so tricky because everybody wants to continue, everybody cares deeply about pushing the mission forward or pushing the vision forward. And so it is very easy to fall into a trap of wanting to be on all the time and wanting to push all the time. I found myself in that, if I'm totally honest, back when we were first uh engaged with each other. And I think looking back on it now, hindsight's always a bitch, right? Like I'm like, oh, I could have done X, Y, and Z. And I have since evolved quite a bit in that way. But I do think there's almost something there when we think about when we're bringing people into the nonprofit or mission-driven space. I almost wish there was like a training for people. Like, hey, this is gonna be this is the long game, right? This is the full marathon, not the split. You have to take care of yourself. And this is true in any sector, of course. But I do think, you know, mission-driven work in particular brings a certain kind of person to the table.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Yeah, I think it it's also just like we're all fighting against the construct of capitalism, which is a good thing. Yes, yes. Also that's insane. Also that. No, also that we don't live in a society with the structures that actually support people to thrive in their life, right? Yeah, you know, not enough workers in this country have sick leave, much less anything else, right? And that's because we created systems where it's okay for that to not be true. Um so there's something. It's funny because when I talk about how seriously I feel about work-life integration or balance or whatever truth me when you use, I almost get this reaction of like, oh, it's so radical that you have, you know, that you're this way. And I'm like, I don't, I'm not that ra I'm like radical in some ways, and it just doesn't feel that radical to me to say we should all be able to take care of ourselves and take care of the people that we love. And work shouldn't be able to get in the way of that. Um and I still want to be really effing good at my job, and the way to do that for me is by being able to take care of the people I love and and myself. Um but we do live in a country and we've set up policies and systems that mean that that is a wild thing for me to say. Uh and it's yeah, it almost, you know, it feels insane to say this, but it's like a luxury that I get to have that perspective, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:46

Um, 100%. Yeah. Which, like, what?

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Like, what are we doing here, guys?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

It's actually it's a kind of a good segue into something I was thinking about for you, which is you've been a part of these like major systems change efforts, like rethinking hiring across multiple states. And number one, I'm interested in like what what it takes to create that level of change. But I think my second question to that is how do you stay grounded when you know that these efforts, this is not, this is not for the lack of patience people. Like this is like long, hard, arduous, constantly beating the drum. This is not something that happens overnight. How do you kind of center yourself in this awareness that what you're doing, you're not gonna see the quote unquote payoff for probably a long time?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yeah, if ever. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

If ever.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Uh you know, it sort of comes back to like what we were talking about earlier with communication. I've worked for two bosses now who've both been part of their own, who've really been like tip-of-the-spear leaders. So Luke Schaefer, who is now leading poverty solutions at the University of Michigan, he wrote $2 a day, living on almost nothing in America, which found that 1.5 million families with children live under $2 a day in this country. Uh and Byron Aguiste, leader of opportunity at work, who leads the work around, you know, 70 million Americans who are SARS workers who are skilled for alternative routes. And I phrase both of those that way intentionally, because those two data points can just come out of my mouth because I have heard both of those leaders say them over and over and over again. And I think that is part of what has been really important for me in staying grounded is every person you talk to is at a different point on their learning journey about the problem that you're trying to solve. And being able to really bring people in and help them understand the problem in a way that's gonna resonate with them, to me is how we build a bigger tent. And I think we need a much bigger tent for both like alleviating poverty and solving the deep crisis we have around skills in the labor market. And so being able to just use it's almost like every conversation is the opportunity to start anew, to educate somebody about the things that you care most about and to not presume people are busy, they have lives. Not everyone can do this for their everyday work, right? But if you can move one person, one hiring manager at a time, that's what it's gonna take. And helping people understand the sort of like level of inequality in this country is we are so segregated on every measure of uh that you can measure by race, by income, by class, by geography, by politics. And so there's something to getting to open people's minds that I think is really cool. You have to enjoy individual relationship building and you know, being able to be a little more persuasive in every conversation to do this kind of work because at the end of the day, am I gonna solve poverty and end the skills-based workforce crisis in my lifetime? Definitely not. I'm not going to create an equal opportunity for every person, but one-by-one is really important to me. And I think the other thing is like I have just been surrounded by great people. And if you're working on a hard problem with great people, it doesn't feel so terrible, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Oh my gosh. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

It doesn't feel like soul crushing in the way that trying to do it alone could. And that's 100%.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Oh my goodness. Shout out to Michelle and Chan. These are my two just dearest, still two of my dearest friends from our time together at Bitwise. And when you're working, we talked about that all the time. When you're working on these hard, difficult, seemingly unchangeable issues, you better want to be in the trenches with those people. Because if not, like get out my foxhole. This is not fun. Like, I mean, to have people that I want to dig. And that was for me, still is, I think, even as I'm building my own business, what I miss the most. Like, of course, yes, digging in on these huge issues and gnarly problems that we all want to make better for people, but it's that being alongside somebody and just figuring it out. That is what a joy and how incredible to get to like the years that you'll get to look back on this time with these people and what you all did together. There's real, real magic in that. And I think that that allows also for different perspectives to come in. Like, there's just there's so much about working alongside people that you care about in these spaces that that is, I think, just a giant gift. And I think it's something we were talking about a moment ago before we jumped in. We both were talking about outside of work, how important the relationships are that you have, and in choosing a partner and in choosing who you surround yourself with. These make big differences. Obviously, we know these things, but I think sometimes until you're living it, you don't actually know what it's gonna look like, right? And you were talking about just how incredibly supportive and wonderful your partner is. That's I think a when you choose the person that creates that space for you to be in this work and you do the same for them. That's another, like what a giant beautiful gift that is as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, I mean, I you know, I I think about well, first of all, so call your girlfriend, which is a now defunct sort of feminist podcast. Yeah, I remember. Yeah. Had this theory, shine theory. I don't shine if you don't shine. Uh and that, like that to me is the most important vetting criteria in a colleague, in a friend that I can find. I think there is enough room for all of us at the table, and believing that everybody should get to be their best self and like really pushing to make your friends and your callings look good. That is sure, I, you know, I don't want to look bad. But what I care a lot more about is other people looking good. I want everyone to get to be their best selves, which sounds really corny when I like say it out loud, but no, um, but I think that's what makes it easier to stay in this work. And I think having a supportive partner who, when we started dating at 21, that was not a thing I was vetting for. But now just having that in my life, I'm like, oh, this is a person I spend a lot of time with, who I ultimately make a lot of important decisions with. And it's a gift that we're aligned on our values and how we want to approach life and our careers. And I'd be remiss if I didn't shout out my two best friends who we often call each other, like text each other a question and then respond and say, Thanks, bras. Like you're always holding me up.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Um which you know Oh my god, that's so cute.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah. And that's to me my job, especially for my female friends, is like, how do we hold each other up when times are hard, when you really need that unconditional support? Um, there's other people in your life to like give you the critical feedback, but like if you can't really support the people closest to you, you've got it. You've got to show up for them. And you can't show up for other people if you're not showing up for yourself. Yeah. So it comes all back to this like, how do you take care of yourself? And when we moved to the Bay Area after COVID, I was like really intent on building deeper community here. I had moved around a lot. And it's funny that we're talking today because I throw a huge Friendsgiving every year. And it has become people start asking me in August. They're like, have you picked a date? Like, what's the plan? And I think I think there's something about we're not, you know, it's very trendy right now to talk about community and how are we thinking about community and and all that. But I really do think we'd like we deprioritized it at some point, and all of that is the like critical underpinnings of a happy life, for which, you know, a career is a big piece, a partner is a big piece, and the people you surround yourself with, family or otherwise, is a is a huge piece.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

So absolutely, I totally agree. It's interesting too. I think as we get older, your idea of connection starts to deepen or shift, or you think about, you know, sure, yes, what does community mean to me? Does it mean I for a long time struggled when we moved back to Sacramento because all of our family is here, which is such a huge, amazing gift. But that meant that we like my husband has three brothers, they're his best friends, they're my best friends. So our community really was our family. And so we hadn't really invested a lot in making friends. And so for a while there, because I had moved back from the Bay and I had friends, you know, my dearest friend is in Fresno, one's in Oakland, somewhere on the East Coast, and I had to really kind of reframe what I thought I meant by community. I in my head it was like friends, you know. Yeah, all like living in the apartments next to each other, and it has to be local. And I'm like, well, who says? Right? Like it doesn't have to be that. And I'm like, I don't feel lonely. I feel like I have incredible humans in my life, just the visual of it might. Have had to change a little bit. And now we've been incredibly lucky because our kids are in school and sports and we're now surrounded by phenomenal humans. But it can shift over time. It doesn't always sound or look or you know feel the way you think it might have when you were younger. But to be present enough and aware enough of it, I think is part of the trick. I want to be really mindful of your time because I know we're close here, but I cannot let you leave without asking the question I ask everyone, which is in the work that I do with women, it's this kind of bridge of how you yourself are developing internally as you're building the strategy for what you're doing externally. And in thinking about that, so much of that really is in service of building whatever legacy you're building. And I think we tend to talk about legacy as this like big giant, you know, thing after we die. I like to frame it as no, it's it's what we're doing today, it's what we're building in real time. It's the impact we want to have, it's how we want to be remembered. So I ask everyone, what does building a legacy mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 45:06

So it's funny. I had a coach ask me this maybe five years ago. Tell me, who is this coach? I need to find this for me. Wonderful. Um, shout out Pat Zach. Uh he was actually in this like larger meditation program that she runs, and she did this visualization of okay, when you're 80, what do you want people to be saying about you? And my answer then and my answer now is around being generous. I want to be generous with my time and with my money and with my attention and with just the way I approach people and how I talk about people and how I work with people. And um, you know, there's something to me about I'm, as you can tell, very other-oriented. And having that kind of approach to the world, I think has to your point, like on a day-to-day basis, hopefully means that that's the legacy I leave. And if I get to make change on these big heart problems, fine, that's great. Like that's ultimately what I want to do. But I don't want to do that at the expense of how I make people feel, right? Um the ends to me don't always justify the means. And so how do I make sure that I'm making time for the early career conversations and giving money to the causes that I care about and moving a deadline for somebody because we don't do brain surgery on babies. I really try to like bring that, like infuse that approach as generosity into everything that I do. And your legacy is built by how people remember you, right? Um, and so that's that's my hope. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Well, I mean, I would just be the first to say, yes, that is how you show up. It is the feeling I get. It's the first feeling I got. I don't know if I would have said that word, but now that I know you, yes, when we were first connected, um, you know, you just know those people when you meet them, that they are thinking about the world differently and you are falling up totally engaged and alive and aware. And yes, like yes, in service, but also to your point, generous with yourself because you're allowing yourself to give yourself that space and to be doing the work that you care about. And that's just as important as being generous with others. So you're amazing, and I appreciate you so much. I know you're a busy woman, so thank you for coming and spending some time with me. I think there's so much, like I was like, I want to hear to talk about city year, because like not everybody knows what that is, and there's so many incredible things you talked about. So I'll probably link out to them so folks can look it up if they're interested, but probably a part two at some point for sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Always. I feel like um I don't know if anyone said this too, but at some point you should it would be great to get all of the women who are in these conversations with you together.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Yes, this is literally, yes, my bestie, the one in Oakland. I interviewed her a few times ago and she said it for the first time out loud on the show. And I it is in the works. I am trying to figure out how to make that happen because yeah, it's just too many incredible people. She literally was like, How do I not know that person who that's how I felt on the videos?

SPEAKER_00 48:26

I'm like, I want to know her. How do I get to know her?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

Yes, that is real. So, yes, on it. 2026. Here we come.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Also, just a testament to the kind of people you surround yourself with and what you're trying to do here. Um, that literally everyone, it's like, oh, like, gosh, she's so cool. She's so smart. She's so like, you know, you're bringing out these insights in folks. So um, so I'll give you your flowers too. Uh thank you. It's a joy to talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_02 48:58

I appreciate you so much. You're too right, my friend. Thank you soon. Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here. I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you. If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next. And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to beldenstrategies.com slash newsletter. I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week. Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.