The Project Baby Podcast

The Right Way To Wean With Lucy Upton

• Project Baby • Season 1 • Episode 1

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The Project Baby Podcast  

  • Series 1, Episode 1
  • Title: The Right Way To Wean With Lucy Upton

In this episode, hosts Natasha Hewett  chat with Lucy Upton, a paediatric dietitian and feeding therapist. They delve into key topics such as:

  • Can we ever prevent allergies 
  • The "right" way to wean 
  • The importance of variety in a baby’s diet 
  • Balancing homemade and store-bought baby foods 
  • The importance of feet to eat


Support the show

Find out more from Lucy direct on her website https://www.thechildrensdietitian.co.uk/about

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/childrensdietitian/?hl=en


Natasha:

Welcome to the Project Baby podcast. I'm Natasha. I'm the editor of Project Baby and I am mum of three boys. Today on Project Baby, we are joined by Lucy Upton, children's dietician.


She has over 15 years experience dedicated to helping babies and children find the joy and love with food. Lucy is a mum, author with a master's degree in nutrition, paediatric dietician and feeding therapist. Welcome.


Lucy:

Thank for having me.


Natasha:

So I think the topic to start with is the question that every parent is asking. When is the perfect time to start weaning?


Lucy:

Yeah, it's, and you know what, it's quite contentious sometimes, isn't it? And I see lots of people going at each other in comments around exactly the right time. So I think, you know, baseline, we take sort of guidance and recommendations in the UK, we have the NHS and they say around six months of age. And that's in line with the World Health Organisation. But what I always encourage parents to do is interpret that around comments by paying attention to their baby. And I totally get it as a parent, like, you want a start date, you want a plan, you want to know exactly the sort of right time. The reality is your baby is always going to be the best guide for when the right time is, but you know, around that six month mark. So we're looking that your baby is developmentally ready for solids to start eating. So there's some key things to look out for. Some of them are really obvious. So your baby can sit up a little bit unaided and he's holding their head up. They're not going to be swallowing very much if they're still quite floppy or down here somewhere. You want baby also because we want to encourage babies to be involved in their feeding and self-feeding even right from the start. So what we'd want is babies being able to see something, grasp it and bring it to their mouth. Chances are babies are mouthing toys, they're picking things up, they're starting to get curious and doing that anyway. And the final thing we're looking for is that their tongue thrust is starting to diminish. It doesn't have to be gone completely, but that's the idea that if you're sort of putting a spoon or your finger to their mouth that they're not immediately thrusting it completely out as if to say no and that's, it's not no it's just a reflex that is keeping babies safe and what we want is that to start to diminish because we want babies to start actually swallowing some food once it's in their mouth and the tongue moves from the front to the back.


Natasha:

So with that guidance, does that guidance change if the baby is breastfed or formula-fed?


Lucy:

No, no. The guidance is exactly the same. And I think it's just remembering that like any aspect of a child's development, each baby is going to hit that at a slightly different time. Some babies might be ready, you know, a week before their six month birthday. Some might be a couple of days afterwards. It's just paying attention to your baby. And, you know, I have to say to families, you can sort of prepare your baby a little bit. You can get them up seated with you at meal times looking at food, like what is this thing that everybody else is doing? Like that's really good way for prep. You can give them some just empty utensils, introduce a spoon, give them a little cup to play with, get them sort of familiar. Because then on day one, not absolutely everything is completely alien to them. Like it's not the first time they've been in their high chair, seen a spoon, seen any food. Do you know what I mean? Because you can imagine being a baby, if they've not had any of that yet, all of a sudden they're in a chair with some green mush in front of them and a spoon. And they're like, what's everyone expecting me to do with this? Yeah, and we place so much expectation on the idea that children and babies will just know how to eat. And the reality is that eating isn't innate. Eating is a skill that is learnt and they are starting from no skills. And I always remind parents that when you're thinking they're going to be troughing away from kind of day two, you know, maybe there'll be that unicorn baby who is straight in there, but mostly children are working out what on earth is this.


Natasha:

Yeah. And you mentioned about baby grasping the food and picking the food up. Would you say baby led weaning is the best way or the way forward or is it?


Lucy:

I never apply best to anything with children because they are little humans, they are not little robots. And I think the most important thing for weaning really is that parents explore the options available to them. You can kind of do traditional kind of spoon-lead weaning. Baby-led weaning refers to kind of offering babies adaptations of family food in an appropriate form. So you know, finger foods that initially they can grasp really easy and are going to mash almost as soon as they're in their mouth or fall apart. Or you can do a combination and there isn't going to be a best way. The best way is where baby feels comfortable, family feel comfortable because to give you an example, if you've got a family who think that they have to do baby led weaning and that's the only right way, but they are terrified of starting with that approach, they're probably not going to get off to a good start. In fact, I've seen families don't get off to a good start because parents are so anxious. They are so worried that their baby is like, why on earth is mum so...You know they can smell that, they can read that off you, what's going on here? And they don't even want to interact with the food. So I think you've got to get yourself to a place where you're happy with the approach that you're taking. And I always talk to families about the fact that with either approach or combining the approach, the end goal is the same. Like it's two different roads, maybe they'll cross over at a certain point, but the goal is the same, which is your baby's having a variety of textures, a variety of food. And generally by around 12 months of age is having adapted family foods. The route there will be different for every baby. And again, please for parents, don't use that as a stick to bat each other with in terms of saying one's better than another. I think there's so much that needs to be done around sort of respecting other people's choices and that there can be definitely two ways and multiple ways to do something that lands children in the same place.


Natasha:

Yeah, definitely. And I also think when it comes to feeding them, parents often worry about how much their babies are getting. Should they be worrying when they're so little?


Lucy:

No, no, I have a big rule. I wrote this in my book and I was like, variety over volume every time, especially in the first few months of weaning. I probably get ⁓ in multiple enquiries a week and it's very, very similar. So if there's parents listening, they'll be like, and the baby is somewhere between seven to nine months of age. And the enquiry goes along the lines of my child is slow for weaning. They're not eating very much. I'm really, really worried. And there is a reason lots of people are messaging, it's not a coincidence that lots of people are messaging me with this worry, with the same thing. The reality is that learning to eat isn't just about a child picking up food, just chomping away on it and eating it. They've got to learn all the oral motor skills. So, you know, they don't have a big rotary chew. They don't have like an effective munching. They don't know what they're doing with it for the first few weeks at all. Even if it's getting to their mouth, lots of babies will be learning by mashing it, squashing it, giving it to you, chucking it on the floor, just looking at it and going, what on earth is this? Like, and sort of picking that up. So, in a way, say that journey is going to be different for every baby. And if you see, you happen to stumble across the video of a seven month old who's already on three meals a day and seemingly eating everything, they may well have started weaning closer to four months, you don't know. And have had way more experience and opportunity so far because that parent started earlier. And also, I speak to lots of families about the fact that alongside learning to eat, between that kind of six to 12 months, there's lots of other big milestones babies are pushing towards. You know, they may well start babbling, they're going to be learning to crawl and potentially starting to learn to walk. And actually when you have these big pushes in development in another area, their gross motor skills, their fine motor skills. You know, we're asking them to do a lot if we're like, I'd like you to learn to talk and walk and eat. I remember watching with my daughter, sort of I was like, she's not really done much different with food the last two weeks, but she started to crawl. And then once she'd mastered crawling, all of a sudden we had more in terms of exploration of food and doing things with it. And I think it's hard to do as a parent because we like to be in control. And letting control go and going, I'm offering you a variety of foods. I'm giving you the opportunity, the experience. I'm showing you what to do. I think that's the other thing I say to lots of families is that what we sometimes see, and I see it a lot is, food will go down on a high chair tray or down and then the adult that's there is sort of just sitting looking at the child, like expecting them to do something and children will take their cues from the trusted adults around them. So if you've got just a few bits of that food, if you're showing and exaggerating with them, they may well be more likely to model. They might not that day, they might just be like, not today. But they are more likely to do something if you're showing them what to do. And naturally parents do this in so many other scenarios. Like if you've got a new toy, you show them how to use it. You're like, bing, bing, bing, look, it's a xylophone. And then they're like, oh yeah, mm, Otherwise they have no idea what they're doing. So sort of eating together with your child, accepting the fact that volumes won't necessarily be huge. They might be mouthfuls for what feels like quite a long period of time, but there'll be a point at which it flips for most children where they are feeling more confident, they've had more experience, they're building that kind of, oral motor skills that they need, they're happy with the sensory side of things, or look, some things are dry, some things are wet, and almost every parent says to me, it feels like it's just clicked.


Natasha:

Yeah, you know ⁓ when the baby does that classic and you put the food in their mouth and then they spit it out? Yeah. And it happens to everybody? All the time, yeah. Absolutely to everybody. Do you then go, do you know what, they're not hungry? Done, move on. Or do you try and find something else? What would your recommendation be? Like, so say for example, that child hasn't eaten very much, they're spitting it out. But would you say, try something else?


Lucy

Park it and move on, park it and move on. If you've offered a few foods, a deconstructed meal or a few food groups on that tray, say you've given them some sweet potato wedges and there's a bit of grated cheese and some avocado or something, if they've interacted with it, this that and the other and then they're kind of done, move on. Move on. Because they'll also sense if you're starting to pressure or persuade and also just some days they just might not be feeling it. Yeah. And know, teething, coming down with illness, I always say to parents, like, appetite is this wonderful thing, but it's so blimmin' delicate for kids. A sniff of a cold, a sniff of a virus, no, no, no, no. I'm not gonna eat. And then they don't eat throughout the whole virus. And then they have the hangover afterwards, and you're like, are you? And they get back to themselves, and eating is the very last thing that comes back. And I don't think that's coincidence. I've worked in feeding for over 15 years now, and the more I learn, and the more...I hear from all the other professionals involved and the more I realise how much of a child's body and brain feeding is actually involved with, the more complex you realise it is and the more effortful you feel like it is. And you go, well, of course it's the first, we're going to do this hard thing last. It's not as easy as we perhaps think it is, even though for so many of us will just, eating's just second nature, right?


Natasha:

Yeah of course.


Lucy:

Until you feel unwell or until it's hot and you're not really hungry. You know, it's all of those things. So trust, trust your little one. Trust your little one. Yeah.


Natasha:

Yeah, and it's interesting isn't it because it's when we touched on like the control as the parent Yeah, and having to let that go slightly. Now I found that really difficult with my little one and um he loved just to cake himself in a yogurt and it's really hard to watch because I'm like, oh my goodness What am I gonna do next? What is the next? And it's hard isn't it? Can I just do it with the spoon for you? Yeah, whereas your advice is to get messy?


Lucy:

My advice is absolutely let them get messy. So babies learn about their environment and they explore with their senses. They're constantly looking at things, they're constantly picking things up. You'll have noticed they're constantly putting things in their mouth. In the kind of development world, we'll often describe it as like sensory motor learning. They're learning with their body and this big sensory system, the world around them. And so much that we learn about food is through all of our senses. It's not just about tasting, is it?


Like if I blindfold you, you'd probably still be able to tell me about stuff with that food, about that food. If you put your hands in, it's cold, it's wet, it's crunchy, it's really hard. And immediately your brain is starting to go, it could be this food, it could be this food, when it comes to my mouth, I'll have to crunch that. I could use a spoon with that. All of that experience without even looking at it and knowing what it is. So eating is a very sensory experience and I'm a big fan of just letting kids get on with it. It's very good. It lets them learn about food, get familiar with food, a similar kind of sensitivity in terms of nerve endings in your hands as it is in your mouth, in terms of kind of discrimination. And we all know that because we're tactile, we work things out. So children will often, know, parents will say, well, they're just playing with it. And I'm like, well, they learn everything else through play. So that's okay. But this, this is brain starting to build a neural pathway. What is it? What am I going to do with it? But it's so hard because as parents, you see the success as they've eaten the meal, they've got a full tummy, that's what success feels like with eating doesn't it? Like they're doing it, like they're doing it really well but they've got to do all the other learning stuff first. Yeah yeah and let them get messy. Good bibs, good bibs and a soft cloth and on that note I always say to parents like don't try and clear them up throughout the meal time you know when you're like let me just let me just get that off there or let me just scrape the spoon and just leave it just leave it let them be okay with it.


Natasha:

Good.


Lucy:

and you'll desensitise to it over time, the rest. ⁓


Natasha:

Okay, so talking about bibs, give me your top five weaning essentials. What do we need to get started?


Lucy:

We need a high chair. Everyone's going to be like, yes Lucy, well you need a high chair. but I do have some prerequisites with high chairs because I see some pretty dreadful high chairs out there, if I'm honest. A high chair needs to be able to make sure a baby is sat in a good upright position. Please don't have ones or feed your baby when they're reclined. That's a huge choking risk. Ideally, you want one with a tray that's really easily accessible or maybe can move or you can take it off and eventually bring baby up to the table. And I know that sounds silly, but I see so many


trays so far away from the baby can't even reach it or they're of leaning forwards out of a good position. So a nice sort of compact with a tray. The other thing I would say is if you can either add it or look for a high chair that has an adjustable foot rest. And people who know me will be sick of me banging on about this, but the idea of needing your feet to eat is so important. And I say to parents, if you're sat on a chair, your wonderful blue chair, take your feet off the floor and immediately your cores engaged, right? Because your brain is like, oh god, I might fall and hit my head. I need to keep upright. And the more effort, if a baby's swinging, I see feet swinging for children all the time, they've got no stability. So you'll see babies lean to the sides of the high chair, or you'll see them tire much quicker because their body is much less able to focus on the task in hand, the food in front of them. It's very much focused on keeping them safe and upright. Feet to You need your feet to eat. So high chair with a foot rest or an adjustable foot rest or adapt one that you can kind of move your tray or they can reach the tray that isn't reclined. And ideally, I do love something eventually that means you can take the tray off and bring them up to the table. Because from about a year of age, that's really helpful. You know, bringing them up to where everybody else is eating. So good high chair, bib if you want one, your choice. Do you know what admission from a dietician, I sacked off bibs in the end. Yeah, she hated having them on and I just couldn't be bothered with the battle. So I was just like, whatever. I, I, RIP vests. They're gone. Um, but some people will like a full coverall and you can get ones that clip underneath and catch all the food. Some people like just something that's going to cover the front, but you know, a bib. If you're planning on doing kind of any kind of purees or mash, you might want a blender, but don't spend too much money. You don't need to a hand blender will do you won't, you'll be like, Oh, I'm not using it anymore after a handful of weeks. Some good cutlery for baby. So I would say lots of weaning spoons understandably are quite long and obviously have like a small silicone tip and that's fine if you're supporting the feeding. But when babies start to get used to spoon use themselves, you'll find that they have that sort of fatter grasp. So shorter fatter handles that they can pick up where they're not like, ooh, I've got this long stick, I've got to try and get it in my mouth, can work really, really well. And a cup.

And ideally a small open cup is a great place to start. One that they can get their hands around that isn't going to hold like 200 mls of water that's going to inevitably end up on your floor and all down on them. Something that holds 20, 30 mls that they can just start to learn to sip from. 


Natasha:

When we talk about tummies and food allergies, yeah, massive topic, right?


Lucy:

Yes, big topic. I probably see more people talking about it now than I have done in a very, like I've done this job for a long time. And I would say in the last five years, a lot more, obviously kind of rightly so focus on managing children who have food allergies, but also what we can do with weaning to help prevent food allergies, like stop it in its tracks. And a lot more tummy troubles or worrying about what's going on with kind of developing and evolving guts. So.


Natasha:

So let's start with allergies. Let's break it down. So can you prevent some, obviously can't prevent all allergies, but are there some that you can help prevent or?


Lucy:

So the short, succinct answer to this is yes. The key thing that has really transformed the way that we introduce foods to babies and allergens to babies over the last, I mean, we started seeing this coming out like a long time ago, but it takes a little while to trickle down to kind of generalized advice and population advice. What we very much understand now is that to essentially halt allergy development in its path if a child isn't already allergic to something. The best thing we can do when we start weaning is give them those foods. And to put this really simply, it's essentially saying, we are not gonna leave that door open for food allergy. We're gonna shut it by giving it to the child. This is something that terrifies tons of parents. see them thinking they have to go and sit in a car park with a spoon full of peanut butter. And I have literally walked past a family in a car doing that. And I wanted to be like, you don't have to do it, because understandably they're terrified. But essentially what we want is to get those food proteins down to the gut. And we know that the gut and the immune system are close friends in the gut, where that's where food should be in the gut and the immune system is labelling that food as safe. What we don't want is delaying and delaying and delaying and delaying that, which in the background can mean that sometimes some children, particularly children with eczema, are sensitizing in the background and may go on to be or are already allergic to those foods because the immune system is getting information about that food a different way, like via the skin. So I'm always just like, get it in. Like once your baby starts weaning, get it in. And you know, there's even for some babies, with quite severe eczema that might've been early onset, they need, you know, steroid cream for management. It's quite widespread. You know, there is some guidance now that under the care of a health professional. So like a dietitian, we would be thinking about introducing certain food allergens like egg and peanut before six months of age, proactively. And there is good research now that supports that when we do that, we can stop the highest risk children going on to be allergic to those foods, which is amazing. I mean, it's something that parents didn't previously have in their arsenal to be able to use. It's just about I think for parents giving them the confidence to do that. And as I say, anything prior to six months of age or that high risk group, go and speak to a health professional who should be able to support you through that.


Natasha:

Just because, say for example, I have an allergy, it's natural to think, I'm going to pass that to my children. Not always the case.


Lucy:

Like, so evidence doesn't actually show that direct inheritance is very common, bar perhaps, peanut to a degree, but the reality is is that you're, we can't do much about our genes. You know, I am surprisingly not actually drowning in hayfever right this moment, but I am such an atopic individual and I'm like, I wonder if my little one will be scot-free. So there's always gonna be a genetic kind of loading of the gun for want of a better term. You know, there's, if there's atopic history of any eczema, asthma, hay fever or food allergy in the family, there's a chance that your child has a genetic predisposition to that and that they may well therefore be at higher risk of food allergy or one of those conditions. If you had an egg allergy, it wouldn't necessarily mean that your little one was going to have an egg allergy. It doesn't quite work as distinctly as that. So there might be an elevated risk. So yes, they're at a marginally elevated risk of food allergy, but much higher than that. So it's kind of stepwise. Higher than that is a child who's got a food allergy already.

So might be a little baby who's already got a cow's milk protein allergy. The highest of high risk is children who've got eczema. You know, there's evidence that they're like perhaps even up to 50 times more likely to develop a food allergy. That's a big, big risk factor. And I think, you know, on that note, if you've got a baby with eczema, please go and get some support about one, managing the eczema and then two, thinking about how you might approach weaning with a few adaptations in terms of looking at that food allergy risk.


Natasha:

So interesting. We touched on the gut. Yeah. And we said how important the gut is. How can we look after it?


Lucy:

There's lots of things and I think gut health is such a buzzword now, isn't it? And everyone's talking about it in the adult arena and whenever that happens I sit patiently and wait how long is it to be till someone's going to ask me about kids. And I, you know, again, people who know me well will know that I am a constant advocate for the fact that actually the time we should focus on most for optimizing gut health is the early years. And we know that a baby is essentially from the moment that they're born starting to accumulate that community of bacteria in their gut. And the fascinating thing is, is that that is occurring very rapidly in parallel with other big aspects of development. So their brain is growing really fast, their immune system's developing really fast. You know all of this is like, in these early years. But we also know that that kind of like, baseline community of bacteria that they accumulate at that time is probably coming with them for life. There will be, it will evolve, but it's coming with them. So we want to make sure it's the right kind of bacteria that are there, that are going to support a child's health right now, but also when they're older. And it's mad to think that what's going on for your child's gut in the early years could affect something like their Alzheimer's risk when they're 70. It's a bit sort of... So looking after little tummies for me, you know as parents, I'm always gonna say let go of the things you can't control. Sometimes our babies will need antibiotics. You might've wanted a vaginal birth, but you had a C-section because it was absolutely necessary. You know, there's some things that are just gonna be outside of our ether of control as parents. Gratefully, there are lots of things that we can do. So, you know, early feeding, breast milk is absolute rocket fuel for the gut. Any amount of breastfeeding or breast milk is always gonna be great. And then when you get to weaning, you have a real opportunity for, you know, evolving that microbiome to be very, very healthy. And unfortunately, I see lots of advice out there that isn't really supportive of that. So you know, oh you know you should give them carrot for a week and then move on to something else. And actually we know, and there's been even more studies out this year that show one of the best things you can do for the gut at that time, which affects things like allergy, risk, and a whole load of other things is diversity, which basically means let them eat, give them a load of food. Plant-based foods are always going to be best for the gut microbiome. So thinking about fruits and veggies and, you know, beans and legumes and nuts and seeds and those sorts of things always going to basically help feed those sort of friendly gut bacteria. And then there's going to be a cohort of children as well who might be having those sort of early tummy troubles that we see with babies. Like I had a very colicky little one, like really colicky, really unhappy tummy, you know, and I see a lot of reflux and I see constipation and those sorts of things. Um and that might be the time where you start to look for very evidence-based strains of kind probiotic supplements, live bacteria supplements that have actually been shown to be beneficial. So you might think about things like for babies who've got colic, there's particular strains of bacteria, products like BioGaia, which are known to be beneficial and are now within guidelines for health professionals to be able to recommend to kind of help manage that balance of bacteria in the gut. So more is about what parents can do. Also, let them be outside. Let them roam outside and get dirty. And I had a really, I remember listening to a really interesting lecture from, and it was all just about outdoor play and why kids are drawn to just being like feral, for want of a better term. But wanting to be feral. And I just, I watched my own daughter afterwards and I was like, it is like they seek it out. I'm there being like, don't put that in your mouth. Don't put that in your mouth, oh no, not the dirt. And I'm like, why are they doing that? And actually there's probably good reason, you know, soil, obviously I'm not saying eat loads of soil, but being outside and in that sort of outdoor arena is really good for the microbiome too. So picnics. Picnics. 


Natasha:

Picnics. Lots and lots of picnics, lots of picnics. And travelling with baby is always such a big topic when I speak to my listeners. How can we travel with our babies whilst making sure that they get the nutrients they need? But it's got to be convenient, right?


Lucy:

Yeah, do you know what? I had a good conversation with a really good friend of mine not that long ago, because they were like, oh my God, Lucy, we've just realized we're going to Thailand right when we should be starting weaning. Like, oh God, should we not go? What do we, like, what do we do? You know, I give up. Yeah, I was like, absolutely go on holiday. We take the holiday. So I think it's about being pragmatic, isn't it? So think about where you're going. Think about, you know, depend on location. Think about... what food is gonna be there, are you catering for yourselves or have you got an all-inclusive? There almost always is going to be foods that are gonna be suitable that are available. So local fresh fruit and veg isn't gonna be hard to come by. Bread, flour and milk to make pancakes, eggs, that sort of thing is probably gonna be accessible for you. And I've had lots of families tell me that actually when they speak to resorts or wherever they might be going on holiday, that they're actually very accommodating of food for babies.

What I would say is that there might be some things you want to pack and take with you. Some parents, I always laugh, one family admittedly, they're like, we take our emotional support Weetabix. They take something that they know is a base for something that they can whack a load of fruit or yoghurt on or the seeds at the buffet or whatever else they're doing. So you might choose to take some convenient food like cereals. You might choose to take some prepackaged baby kind of foods. So that in those times when you might be out and about in the back and beyond, you have something. And I think it's just about, it's about, unfortunately, organisation, isn't it? Yeah. And also not worrying if you go on holiday for two weeks and you haven't been able to offer as much variety as you would at home. If they've had a bit more fruit and a bit less of the veg or they haven't been able to have the all-inclusive curries on offer or whatever for two weeks, for a week, that's okay. Don't put too much pressure on it at all.


Natasha:

So I do have some questions from our readers. Should you be rubbing food on the skin before the baby tries the food?


Lucy: 

No, big no. Can I have another? No, absolutely not. So I think parents use this as a bit of a, it's really old school, this bit of advice. And it used to be that, I'm really worried about giving them peanuts, so I'm just going to scoop it out and like slap it on the skin. And if it goes red, you know, that's not going to tell us anything. That's not, most children's skin, the baby skin is really delicate. Most of them are going to get red and be like, you know, it's not going to tell you if your baby is allergic or not. It’s literally pointless. For those children I've mentioned already who've got eczema, actually very bad thing to be doing. What we're doing is introducing food protein to a damaged skin barrier and all of those immune cells in the skin which are not used to seeing food that's not meant to be here are almost then more likely to mount a response to that food when it's given again because they're like, well you shouldn't be here. It's like infiltrating through the city walls. You're supposed to come in the main entrance via the gut but you've come this way and you can't be safe. So please don't rub food on your baby's skin. And I think what I would say just to reassure parents is in 15 years, this doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but I have not known a single child have a very severe anaphylactic response the first time they're given something during weaning. And I speak to allergy colleagues and they're the same. It has happened and I know it. But the risk of that happening in a baby is very, very low.


Natasha:

So another question is, and this has been in the news everywhere, shop bought food.


Lucy:

Yeah, oh gosh, it's been a lot hasn’t it.


Natasha:


Pouches, are they bad?


Lucy:

Oh, it's such an emotive word, bad. I've seen so many unhappy parents the last few weeks because it's been really in the news, hasn't it? It's been everywhere. And I think, you know, the first thing I want to reassure any parent who's ever given their baby these foods, which by the way is me included. 


Natasha:

And me. 


Lucy:

You know, and we would look around the room, is that absolutely, yes, we need to be thinking about how often we're using them and which ones we're using, but

now and again, not a problem. You can incorporate these foods into a balanced and varied weaning diet, no problem at all. And now, NHS has updated its guidance to say, don't rely on them to be the kind of main source of nutrition for your baby. We worry that they're not nutrient dense enough. We worry that they're missing out on key nutrients babies need like iron and even vitamin C. And also they don't have that natural variability that food has. Kind of if we were to make it, like if you made a spag bol and I made a spag bol, it would taste a little bit different, the texture would be a bit different, we'd put different veg in it, and that sort of natural variability is quite important for kind of learning how to eat and developing that experience with eating. So kind of across the board, we worry that it's not gonna give basically the best opportunity for a child to learn how to eat and gain experience with food that we would then want them to go on and eat for health. So now and again, in moderation, fine, please don't feel burdened with guilt if you have or continue to give your baby some of these foods But do try and consider it in the wider context of their diet and kind of give plenty of whole foods family foods, too


Natasha:

I think that's really great advice. And the last question is how soon should parents start thinking about their baby gut health?


Lucy:

Oh, like day one. A day one. Just like I'm boom, your baby's out. God, you've got a few other priorities, haven't you? Yeah. Something that I encourage parents to think about right from the beginning. So you know, whilst there's, as we sort of talked about, there's not always lots that you can do around maybe how your baby was born or even where you live, right? We know that there are differences in the gut microbiome from people born in the UK to people born in Africa. Like, obviously our environment is different. But being aware that there are things that you can control, or you can kind of make some decisions about like what foods you give them when they're weaning, how you approach managing tummy troubles, like looking for well-evidence-based probiotic strains, giving them, as I say, plenty of variety during weaning. Think about those plants. There's lots you can do. And it's just being aware of that. And it's hard, isn't it? Because I always say to parents, like, the gut is so invisible. Like, you can't see this community. Like, there's more kind of bacteria and everything else down there, then there is even cells in the body but we can't see it. It's there and it's important but it's not very tangible. So, yeah.


Natasha:

Okay, cool. And I have got to, so to end with some myths or facts.


Lucy:

I’ll get my buzzer back out.


Natasha:

No buzzers. So babies should only drink cooled boiled water. 


Lucy:

Under six months.


Natasha:

Under six months. 


Lucy:

Yeah from six months tap water is fine. 


Natasha:

Tap water is fine from six months.


Lucy:

Yeah, yeah yeah. Let me say that loud and clear. Tap water in the UK is fine from six months of age to offer your baby.


Natasha:

I love that. Baby-led weaning is the preferred or best way to wean your baby. 


Lucy:

Not best. 


Natasha:

Not best.


Lucy:

It might be best for some children, it might be best for some families, but it's not the only way that you can wean your baby. And it's also not the only way you can be led by your baby. Like we talk about weaning babies' cues. You know, if they're turning their head and pursing their mouth shut, they don't want any more food. If they're leaning, exploring, opening their mouth, they do. You know, baby led for me really describes a way of tuning in and being attuned with your baby. And you can offer them a variety of foods and a variety of textures, regardless of which approach you use.


Natasha:

Yeah, and what's right for one family. 


Lucy:

What’s right for you and your family.


Natasha:

Exactly that. You should introduce one new food every three days.


Lucy

Beep on my buzzer? Beep? No? No. I see this advice everywhere and it's particularly sort of often touted towards you know maybe babies who've had reflux or babies with sensitive tummies and things like that. My main concern and the main concern of lots of health professionals and researchers in this area is that is too limiting for your exposure. So if you did one new food every three days with your baby it's like 10 foods? Like in a month, like it's, that's not much at all. You're limiting their opportunity to learn and to be exposed to those foods. So you might take that approach when you're doing gradual introduction of allergens. You know, we'll do three days of peanut. Okay, they're fine. We'll do three days of sesame. Okay, they're fine. Do know what I mean? And you're not introducing other allergens at the same time, but with other foods, absolutely not a rule people need to follow.


Natasha:

Love that. Babies should be encouraged to get messy during weaning. We touched on this earlier.


Lucy:

We did yes. Absolutely yes. Embrace the mess. 


Natasha: 100%. Embrace the mess. 


Lucy:

Yes, absolutely embrace it. I mean don't get me wrong, you'll be cursing when you're wiping stuff off the walls. 


Natasha:

Have the bath ready. 


Lucy:

Have the bath ready. Let them get messy. 


Natasha:

Shower them down. 


Lucy:

Shower them down.


Natasha:

Let them eat in the garden.


Lucy:

Yeah, weather like this, I'm like, hose?


Natasha.

You heard it here first. Common food allergens should be put into your baby's diet during weaning.


Lucy:

Yeah from the moment once you've got going, get on with it. Yeah, egg, peanut are the best ones to start with. Egg, peanut and sesame. 


Natasha:

They’re the ones everyone is worried about.


Lucy:

I know, isn’t it just. I’m like do the hard stuff first. Also, I always find that once parents have done one, so like they build themselves up to do something like egg, and then once they've done one and it's been okay, that renewed confidence comes in with just cracking on and getting the rest in. 


Natasha:

Yeah, and just, it's not a question. Well, it's a question from me. if you introduce something to your baby and they come up with a contact, like a little redness blanch, do you go they’re allergic to it?


Lucy:

No. So contact reactions are often triggered by either acidic foods or those high, so the real term is in natural vasoactive amines. So things like histamine. Histamine, what makes us red and itchy. All the hay fever sufferers in the room are like, give me the anti-histamine. But when it comes to your baby, they've got very delicate skin, as we know, that beautiful soft baby skin, or they might have eczema or something like that. Foods that are acidic or high in some of these vasoactive amines like histamine are likely to flare where they've made contact with the skin. And that will be a sort red blotchy rash. Your baby won't be bothered about it. It won't spread. There are no other symptoms of allergy and it kind of goes away on its own. There's no need to keep those foods out of their diet. You know, tomatoes, common, always aubergine. See it every time with aubergine. Spinach, strawberries, even things like banana and avocado.


Natasha:

So just keep introducing.


Lucy:

Yeah, you can add a barrier cream, so if your baby does get really sort of irritated, it's coming up every time, then just a bit of barrier cream before they have those foods is absolutely fine, normally do the job.


Natasha:

I love that. So on this podcast we close the podcast with one question. 


Lucy:


Oh god, what is it?


Natasha:

It's a question I haven't prepped you for. 


Lucy:

Oh you haven't prepped me, okay.


Natasha:

I haven’t. What is your love language?


Lucy:

Cooking me dinner? 


Natasha:

Cooking you dinner.


Lucy:

I suppose that comes in the acts of service though, right? Doesn't it? 


Natasha:

Yeah


Lucy:

Food. Are you surprised for a dietician, it's food? 


Natasha:

No, I love it.


Lucy:

I think because so much care can come into that. It's like, you know, it's the effort that goes into it. We were talking about this before. Like when you haven't seen people for a while, like it's probably my love language I give other people too. I want to like make nice food, think about their favourites, go out and buy the thing from the farm shop. Yeah food.


Natasha:

Food. 


Lucy:

God, such a cliche, aren't I?


Natasha:

No, not at all. Lucy, it has been amazing. Thank you so much for coming onto the Project Baby podcast. 


Lucy:

Thank you for having me.


Natasha:

So if our listeners want to find out more about your services, and check out your socials. Where can they go?


Lucy:

So you can find me kind of across almost all social platforms as Children's Dietitian. Dietitian spelled with a T-I-T. I say tits, not tics. Dietitian. You can find me on my website, www.childrensdietitian.co.uk and I have churned my 15 years of experience into a book as well.


Natasha:

I love that. I will link all of that below. And thank you so much for joining the Project Baby podcast. And if you would like to hit the subscribe button, then you'll be able to join us on the next one. And we look forward to seeing you then.