Carry your baby the right way!

Babywearing isn't just a convenient way to get around — it's a powerful tool for bonding, soothing, and supporting your baby’s development. In this episode, we're joined by Vern from Carifit, who shares expert tips on how to carry your baby safely and correctly.

Whether you're a new parent or just curious about the benefits of babywearing, tune in to discover how this simple practice can transform your parenting journey.

Transcript

Natasha (00:00)

Welcome back to another episode of Project Baby podcast. And today we have Vern from Carifit. He is the baby wearing movement expert and Carifit have supported over 30,000 parents. Welcome Vern.

So one thing that I have to touch on before we get into anything else is I recently heard, and it absolutely fascinates me, that baby wearing industry is actually unregulated.

Vern (00:47)

So, you're kind of right, and there's a few strands to this, so we'll unpick them one by one. So when you make a baby carrier. If you're going to launch it in a retailer somewhere like a John Lewis, you are going to have to conform to a load of safety standards. And in theory, if you're going to import your baby carrier and sell it direct to customers, you should conform to a load of safety standards. And there are certain safety standards around, for instance, the strength of your buckles, the toxicity or non toxicity of fabrics and the general kind of robustness of the carrier so that it's deemed safe to put a baby in it. So that's one aspect of it. Now, one of the things that's definitely been happening is a rise of, let's call them shipped from far away products that are activated through social media, often with loads of people suddenly using them and that you can just click and buy, for instance, on TikTok. Now, often those products have gone through no safety regulation.

Natasha (01:49)

So if they're in store, they go through these safety checks, but what you're saying is that if they are purchased just through social and they're only available on social, those are the ones that haven't been through or may not have been through these safety checks.

Vern (02:06)

Those are the ones that you certainly want to be super, super wary of. So for instance, to get the carifit into John Lewis, there is an absolute host of things that you have to prove as alongside all of your safety certifications. Your supply chain, all those kinds of things to sell somewhere like that, that reputable, you have to be really robust. You have to know how your product's made, where it's made, where all the parts come from and that they've all passed their relevant tests. If you are just buying something activated on social, or you're buying something you suspect might be a copy of a real brand, which is increasingly happening on places like eBay, then you can reasonably assume that those carriers have gone through absolutely zero safety testing. And actually we've had a few incidences, I don't know, other well-known consultants have talked about this, where they come with no instructions, they smell pretty funky. They've clearly been shipped from far away and boxed up for ages. They don't have safety or warning labels on them. So it's a little bit of the wild west. So there's that part of it. There's the physical carrier part of baby wearing. Generally, when you're buying from a big brand or a really reputable brand, it's going to have been robustly tested. And that's what you want. Now, the interesting nuance within that is that our weight limits are self-declared, there's no kind of governing list. So we can say that a carrier is suitable for newborn, but most consultants and anybody trained in baby wearing will straight away know that that is too big for a newborn. So therefore it opens up a degree, a small degree in my opinion, of risk because that carrier won't fit your baby yet. So the second part to this is what brands are telling people on pack, on socials, through influencer activations, might not be accurate and relevant to actually the age and stage of baby you want to put into it. You know, one of the biggest, most expensive carriers in the world doesn't readily facilitate forward-facing baby wearing, but it's something you see crop up all the time. So there's a real balancing act for people to do their own research. Ultimately, you are going to put the most precious thing you will ever have in this device. So you need to know it's been tested, know that it's strong and robust, comes from a reputable company.

Natasha (04:37)

And is all of that on your packaging?

Vern (04:39)

So on our packaging, for instance, if you flip over our box, all of the safety standards that we conform to.

Natasha (04:45)

All I'm thinking is that how do my readers and my listeners know that what they're buying is 100 % safe?

Vern (04:52)

So I think there's two things there. If you can find that product at a really big name retailer, then you can be pretty sure that's gone through robust safety checks. Because I'll tell you for nothing, John Lewis aren't putting something on the shelves that's not done it and not conformed to the safety standards required. Now, whether that brand's still got the messaging right around who it's suitable for, that's entirely different. But it will have gone through the material tests, the strength tests, the durability tests that it should have. If you're seeing something just suddenly flooding social media that you can only buy direct and that potentially takes seven to 14 days to arrive, that should immediately set alarm bells off because the likelihood is that carrier is being shipped from far away direct to you and may not be going through any rigorous testing at all. So that's sort of part one of the unregulated wild west bit of baby wearing. The second bit is that there is no kind of uniform governing body or qualification for consultants or experts in baby wearing. There are some amazing organizations and some incredibly passionate and well-trained and well-informed baby wearing educators out there, but there's also no overarching governance of it all. So you get this really big spread of people that are passionately interested versus people that have had huge amounts of training, huge amounts of exposure to people. And so you get this big spread of advice and a lot of it is rooted in personal preference and opinion. And that's the other thing that's changed a lot in the baby wearing landscape. I've been in and around baby carriers for 15 years and there was no Facebook, there was no TikTok, there was no Instagram. So you couldn't have these kind of viral conversations, these polarizing opinions about baby wearing best practice, about carriers, etc, etc. And the other thing that we've seen on social media is this rise of massive geographical preferential difference. So in certain countries, they just will never agree with forward-facing baby wearing. Now that can really worry some parents. And because there's no overarching sort of governance or governing body that says actually it's fine in this circumstance, everything then becomes opinion or anecdote. And so what all of these things have led to is this really kind of muddied water for parents to choose a baby carrier. And it really shouldn't be that complicated. So I would go a known brand with a traceable product. you can get it from them direct and you'd rather support the brand direct, brilliant, I totally get that. But if it is listed in a big retailer, it's going to have gone through lots of checks. But also, they should be on the pack, and they should be visible on brands' websites.

Natasha (07:51)

So that leads me into actually physically wearing the carrier. I often see lots of parents and walking around and the baby's far too low and I can see it's far too low and they're like, my back, my back. With a few adjustments, it wouldn't be our back, they would be really comfortable, right? So how do my listeners and my readers know that they're wearing their carrier correctly?

Vern (07:56)

So, it's really a fascinating thing. And the sad thing is with that, a lot of people will buy and invest in a baby carrier, but were it to be properly fitted would be absolutely fine. Now there are lots and lots of brands out there, influencers out there, and people who have an audience that will tell you there's something wrong with your baby carrier. And actually often that's not the case. As much as I would love everybody to buy a carifit carrier, I'm far happier to optimize the fit, for instance in the carifit class of what you've bought first and then you can see how it should fit and how it should feel. Because most carriers, the reality is most carriers from most reputable brands are going to be degrees of good. Now whether they fit you optimally, whether they fit your baby in that moment and age and stage, that's all up for debate. But we can always optimise the fit of what you've got. So to do that it's very, very simple. The first thing your baby should always be is kissable.

If you can't readily kiss the top of your baby's head, then the likelihood is that baby is too low on you. And the way to remedy that is to simply boost them up by putting your hand or your arm underneath their bottom in the carrier. Boost them up until their head is kissable and then look for where all the slack is in the straps. Now if you've used a stretchy wrap, there'll be loads of slack in the wrap that you need to tighten up. So it's the quickest and easiest check for any carrier. Now immediately it means that carrier is being used properly, your baby's in a safer position and to your first point of, that's hurting my shoulders and my back, for most people that will go a long way to remedying that. Now within all of that there's nuance around how adaptive a carrier is, whether it's gonna fit you and your partner as well, whether it is a true newborn carrier or whether baby needs to wait and be a bit bigger, but you can always optimize the fit of the carrier you've got. And it's a real tragedy when parents buy something and then they don't get or can't access support to optimise the fit of what they've got. And so they go looking to buy something else before they properly understand how what they've bought works.

Natasha (10:22)

Okay, yeah. And the important, you just touched on dad's swearing carriers. Like, it's so important, right?

Vern (10:30)

It's huge, yeah, I mean, it's one of the amazing things. There's an awful lot as dads that we can't do early on and we can't help with. There's a lot of course that we can. Baby wearing, I think, is one of the easiest, most important, significant wins for dads. It does a couple of really amazing things to make us quickly useful, particularly to mum. So when a dad wears their baby, it really boosts something called caregiver sensitivity. So caregiver sensitivity is a precursor to secure attachment. And we all know how vitally important that is for healthy children and healthy, happy parents and relationships. So when we wear our baby as a dad, we get to understand their squirms and their squiggles, their noises, their farts. We get to recognize when they've pooed themselves, when they're hungry. And all of these little things we learn because they're right there with us so we can feel them. But also we start to have a similar calming effect on them as mums. So evolution tells us that a baby's favourite place to be in those formative months, whether we like it or not, and regardless of our own familial setup, is with mum. Now, dad can be a really close second, and baby wearing can really help to make that a reality. So particularly for families perhaps that have adopted, or same-sex families, baby wearing is a massive win because it gives us all a chance to form that similar secure attachment and bond that mum has. And it makes us very calming to baby. And that really makes their future mental health very robust. It helps them to develop physically. But as I say, for dads particularly, it immediately makes us useful. And most dads are better on the move. And what I mean by that is, as dads, we know that when we put our baby on and we move, particularly if we just go out the door for a walk, we feel more relaxed. We feel useful. We feel like we're contributing something. So it's not just a win for baby, but it's a really big win for dad's mental health as well during those early months.

Natasha (12:36)

Yeah, mental health is such a huge importance to lots of people, but it's really, really important to myself. I suffered with post-natal depression. I don't shy away from the fact that that's what happened. And I didn't really baby-wear, but equally, I wish I had. And I do know from lots of research and from speaking with lots of other parents who have worn their baby through those difficult times, actually how much it helped them get that bond that they felt they were lacking or anything. And equally, mental health for dad too. Mental health for both mum and dad.

Vern (13:12)

Mental health for both mum and dad. We know from a couple of studies that have been done into Carifit that doing Carifit just for eight weeks has a massive measurable impact on all four classifications of postnatal anxiety and postnatal depression. And we know anecdotally from all the dads that we've surveyed that baby wearing makes them feel calmer. Anytime your household is calmer with a new baby, everybody's mental health is going to be better. If we're getting some more sleep, if our relationship with our other parent is better, and if we feel like we are bonding with our baby, those are huge, huge mental health wins. So it's absolutely vital. Now the other thing that baby wearing does that's really fascinating is it opens up a world of movement possibility. So if we stripped out the fact we'd had a baby and we just wanted to boost somebody's mood, what would we tell them to do? 

Natasha

Go for a walk. 

Vern

Go for a walk, go and do a workout. Move your body to boost your mood, go on, get some green space, walk through a forest, shade bathe, all those kind of things. Now imagine doing that whilst having a hug with something you can't imagine how much you love. So the dual impact of baby wearing plus movement is, I believe, the biggest mental health win that new parents, mums and dads can experience.

Natasha (14:25)

So that's the one thing Carifit are really good at is the fitness side. You've got the app. Tell us more.

Vern (14:32)

So I mean, I think Carifit really these days, it's about baby wearing movement. It's this term that we constantly refer back to. Whatever kind of physical activity you're into, whether it's walking, hiking, dancing, working out, hopefully, Carifit's here to support you. And that's why we created our carrier. That's how we designed it to support parents that want to move more. Now the app is a whole ecosystem of care that supports that. So a lot of new mums will have concerns about what they can do, when they can do it post-birth. So the app is designed to support that whole journey. So it starts with medical care with the GP and paediatric consultant, and then it's women's health physio, it's core, it's pelvic floor, it's reactivation of those key muscles like your transverse abdominus. And then we move you into Carifit baby wearing workouts. So for eight years we've been teaching those we've taught 30,000 parents. It's an amazing way, to get the feeling of something very familiar whilst being completely appreciative of your new circumstance and situation and doing it without the need for childcare or the extra costs or worrying about whether it's a nap time or you're going to be interrupted during your workout. So again, it really feeds into that idea of, well, yeah, baby wearing is great and movement is great. Let's combine the two. And that is the essence of everything we try and support at Carifit.

Natasha (15:59)

Yeah, I love that. And also, just whilst we think about baby wearing and movement, how long do you recommend getting moving with your baby carrier every day? If you could set a time.

Vern (16:14)

So it's a question we get asked a lot. We get asked it slightly differently. And the question we normally get is how long can I wear my baby in a carrier? And there's no upper limit. So in that simple regard, wear your baby as much as you want in the carrier. If you think of lots of other cultures around the world, think of sub-Saharan Africa, they're not buying buggies. They just use slings. Okay, so they're always wearing their baby. Now in terms of exercise, in terms of movement, it really depends on the type of movement,your own capacity for that movement and where you are on your recovery journey. So for instance, our Carifit workouts are never longer than 30 minutes. We know that's perfectly acceptable amount of time to get a really good outcome, to feel like a real workout, but we're not going to overstress and over drain the tanks of somebody newly postnatal. But if you're out for a walk and you want to walk for 90 minutes and you're walking somewhere beautiful, keep walking. So it's really, it's about listening to and understanding your body. This is where comfortable, well-fitted carrier that's designed to support movement can be a massive difference because it should be your body, not your back or your shoulders or the product that you've bought digging into you, restricting that capacity for movement. The best thing that we always advise and the first port of call for everybody is walking. Put your baby in the carrier and go for a walk, go for a baby wearing walk together. A, it's incredibly magical, B, it gets you moving, C, when you wear your baby and move, everybody's winning. And D, and I've said this for years, nobody will remember the first bit of road they pushed their baby down in a buggy. Everybody will remember the smell off the top of their baby's head from their first baby wearing walk because it's a very visceral parent memory. So go for a walk with your baby in the carrier.

Natasha (18:53)

For this section we are joined by Heidi Skudder from Positively Parenthood because this section is all about contact naps and how important baby wearing is for sleep.

Heidi (19:05)

Sure is, definitely.

Vern (19:07)

Certainly is massive benefit when you wear your baby is that they will often nod off not always but often and there's some really big benefits for both mum and dad and baby.

Heidi (19:17)

Yeah, definitely. It's hugely important. I think also, as you add more babies to the mix, if you like, like second babies, third babies, we can go on to like how that can be really beneficial, not just for the baby, but for the whole family and making life easier too. So yeah, do you want to share some of the main benefits? Do you want me to?

Vern (19:36)

Well, I'll tell you what, let's do the practical bit first. So how do you get your baby to go to sleep in the carrier at different ages and different stages? Now in those first four months in that kind of classic fourth trimester, it's actually really, really simple to get your baby to go to sleep in the carrier. We feed them, we change them, we strip a layer off them, we wind them, and we'd pop them in the baby carrier and then most crucially we'd get moving. It's the movement and the proximity to a primary caregiver that will help your baby settle and quickly go to sleep. So it can be a massive win for lowering the stress in a household. It's an amazing way for dads to get out the door and feel useful with a calm baby attached to them. It's great for grandparents. It's very, very simple. This is where your baby wants to be. It's where they're designed to be, close to us. So if they're fed, they're changed, they're not over hot and they've been winded.

Heidi (20:30)

And they’re not awake for too long, too little. That whole awake window vibe is good to take into account too.

Vern (20:35)

Then they're most often going to nod off. And then the big benefits of that, it's great sleep for them, but it can also help them to learn to stack their sleep cycles, which I'm sure Heidi can tell you much more about than I can.

Heidi (20:47)

Because in the fourth trimester, there's so many different factors involved. So their comfort is a really big one. And that is like their tummies, how their tummy's feeling, the air intake, whether they're feeling bloated or not. And all of those things are so like fine tuned in the first, in the fourth trimester, sorry. So if they are like a bit refluxy, a bit uncomfortable, just finding sleep difficult, not just because they want to be on you, but for the other reasons too, then those sorts of babies often won't sleep on their backs at all. And that's when actually putting them a carrier and getting that rest if they find sleep difficult, otherwise can be really, really beneficial. It means that at least they're getting the sleep and it doesn't really matter how they get that, whether that's on you or whatever else. So yeah, really, really useful. And then the other thing I'm just thinking of is actually if life is just really busy and you've got other children, for example, like with my third, she had all of those things I just talked about with the tummy issues and the reflux and she was a third baby, so she wasn't gonna have a nap in her cot because we were on the school run. Equally at three o'clock or 3.30 when she used to do her last nap, we were also on the school run, you're out and about a lot more. So I think a carrier, I'm honest, I they're more, they're really important for first baby, but the more babies you have, the more useful they become because they just become kind of part of you and you have to kind of just move around and get on with family life.

Vern (22:08)

It's absolutely true, they do become absolutely indispensable and it's really then sad when people think, my baby's gone off the carrier. So often when people are through that very easy kind of newborn, they always go to sleep, it's really consistent, it's very straightforward phase. A lot of people think that's their baby wearing day is done. But of course it's not. We just know that babies change, their brain has changed, their physiology has changed. So how they're going to interact with the carrier and when they may or may not nap in the carrier changes massively. One of the big benefits that I've been talking about for years to clients and to mums that do Carifit is that your carrier has a second amazing life cycle around 12 months, 18 months, when perhaps your children are having some time apart from you starting nursery or childcare and they're actually using your carrier for pick up rather than putting them in a buggy can be a massive win and they might often relax and have a nap at that age as well which is really magical to have a bigger, heavier more solid more interactive baby napping on you it's a really incredible experience.

Heidi (23:12)

Yeah, and not I don't even think you know, I'm just thinking like five, five thirty and then you've gone back to work as a mother and you have missed your baby all day long and let's be honest like a lot of mums don't get the choices to whether they have to go back to work or not they do financially and one thing I do a lot of work on is returning to work and some corporate work around that as well and I think one of my, not I think I know, one of my tips is look for that connection at the end of the day. And there's so much you can do either side of your work day. And one of them would be if baby is still at that age where you can wear them to take the carrier to pick up instead of the pram. And yeah, great for baby, obviously, if baby's been a bit kind of, it's full on overwhelmed, stressed, etc. But I would also say for mum too, and I think we need to focus on the mental health aspect of it, which is if you've been at work and you're craving that connection time, just that skin to skin, that kind of bit here on the closeness, makes you feel so much better and so much closer to them and it can obviously reduce your stress and if you've had a stressful day that transition piece as a parent, as a mother around coming home you've got all of your work stuff in your head and it's been full on and you've got stuff to do later on when they're to bed, put them to bed but it just kind of like brings you down slightly and almost grounds you I think a little bit and you know mother nature that's kind of what we're supposed to do so really big for mental health.

Vern (24:35)

It's huge for mental health. We all know we get oxytocin when we have a hug. I'd imagine lots of people when they get home from work, whether your mum or dad could frankly do with a hug. If you've got a baby who's absolutely going to melt into you and lap up that hug, it's a big win for everybody. So it really can lower the temperature of a household. And of course it can help with then night time sleep as well because that baby has had a contact need, had a vital mental requirement met by parent, by primary caregiver, they've had some really close connection time.

Heidi (25:05)

Yeah, definitely. And I've used it, you my daughter's now two in a bit, but we've even used it in her second year, kind of recently as well, where she's gone through like separation anxiety or just, you those days where they're like really, really clingy. She won't necessarily sleep on in it now, but it's just, yeah, like again, running to school and she wants to walk, but she doesn't want to go in the pram and she wants to be on me, but oh my goodness, then just pop her in and off you go and it can really, really help. But I think going back to that mental health, something that comes up a lot in sleep in those early months is how sleep and mental health are linked and, you know, things like starting a routine, lots of parents want to do it, but then they're like, well, baby won't go down to sleep. So trying to encourage parents, I think, to think about sleep being okay to be on the go rather than this idea of like, they have to just be in their cot. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm a massive advocate for setting up sleep early on in their cot. think there's room for both. And I think actually the both done sort of alongside each other is actually a really beautiful sleep journey because you have the option to be out and about or have your hands free at home if needs be and put them down. But those days where they are difficult and they just won't have the nap, mental health, getting outside in nature, reducing anxiety, calming for everyone.

Vern (26:19)

Ultimately anything that's reliable, that's bankable as a parent and you need as many tools in your toolkit as you can. So if you've got a baby that will sleep in lots of places, that's going to be a way easier baby on the whole family. And the fascinating thing about baby wearing and contact naps is unlike a cot nap and lots of people's sort of idea of a cot nap is when you're napping in the carrier, babies don't require dark, they don't require quiet, they're not bothered by environmental noise. The proximity to you, your heartbeat, your smell and the movement is enough to keep them settled. So it's a very different kind of sleep skill that that baby is learning. And it is a really incredible tool because it does mean you can get out the house. If you're struggling with feeling isolating, it does mean you can go to a mum and baby class or a dad and baby class. So it's got a myriad of positive benefits and it is surprisingly simple once you get your head round, your carrier and the pre-going into the carrier routine. I think the other thing that's really fascinating is sleep begets sleep and I'm sure Heidi can elaborate on this but a nap in the carrier doesn't take away from or have any detrimental impact on night time sleep or sleep in other places.

Heidi (27:34)

Yeah, I think there's this whole kind of, you know, existence of divisive opinions, isn't there, for parents, especially on social media. And it doesn't have to be all or nothing. So you don't have to have a baby who just naps in their cot to get a decent night's sleep. You also don't need to have a baby who you baby-wear all day to be able to, for example, co-sleep at night time. They can coexist really, really well. And I think if you are an active person, someone who wants to be outside. Clients will often say to me, can I still do prime naps or sling naps in the day, but still look at them sleeping in their cot during the night time? And the answer is yeah, like ultimately it's sleep. I think just know that you can interchange the two. If you want to do sling naps all day and cot all night, that's absolutely great, fine. Obviously, you're probably not going to be using a sling at 2am, although it's not unheard of. For me to speak to clients who I'm troubleshooting sleep with, have had to resort to that because it is the only way that they will settle. just knowing you've got a choice, I think, and being able to interchange the two is really amazing.

Natasha (28:41)

We've got some questions from our listeners and our readers of Project Baby. How long, and they mean months, should they carry baby for? Is there a limit?

Vern (28:56)

No, so again culturally around the world you'll see lots of babies that are worn well into toddlerhood, often that might be out of safety necessity need to travel. The sweet spot for Baby wearing is often kind of naught to 18 months and then your carrier use will change quite dramatically So it might be something that bails you out of a toddler kick off when you're going around a museum or through an airport

Might be something that you've got a poorly toddler and they just want to be held, so you dig the carrier back out. There really isn't, if you're both happy and comfortable and supported, you can continue baby wearing for as long as you like. There are some fantastic toddler carriers now. I would throw in there as well, the kind of hiking style rucksacks. So another great way to move with your baby as part of your journey rather than apart from you. So you can do it for a lot longer than you think. What people need to understand is that how your baby interacts with the carrier changes dramatically, particularly through that first 12 months. So we can't treat a nine month old baby like we treated a nine week old baby. We can't just feed them now and chuck them in the carrier and expect that they're just going to settle down and go to sleep. By that age, they might be forward facing. They might want 30 minutes or 20, 30 minutes of play on the floor before they go in the carrier and settle if you want them to have a nap. So we have to understand the age and developmental stage of our babies and then we get that really extended product use but also those magical extended memories because of course when you're in those formative months your baby sleeps on you and that's one amazing memory. When you're wearing a one-year-old going through an airport and they're pointing and kicking and smiling at everything that's a whole different set of memories just as wonderful.

Natasha (30:44)

Yeah, and another question I've got here is what age can baby forward face?

Vern (30:52)

So this isn't an age question. So everybody asks, what age can my baby forward face? And that's a bit like saying, what age will my baby crawl? It's different for every baby. So there are four things that we typically look out for, four markers that would indicate our baby's ready to forward face. So the first one is a size one. They've got to be big enough to make sure they can sit in the carrier. That's if the carrier is designed for forward facing. Sit in the carrier and not have any fabric covering their face or mouth. They should have a little gap under their chin. Then they need the head and neck strength because when we take away the back part of the carrier, they need to be self-supporting in all directions. So ideally we'd like them to be self-supporting for around 10 minutes so that it's not too stressful for them because it's a whole different set of muscles they have to learn to use. So there's the size and there's the strength. Then we want to make sure our baby is old enough that their eyesight is lengthened out. So every now and then on socials, every now and then you will notice somebody with a really young baby facing forwards. And we know that baby's eyesight takes time to lengthen out their field of vision. And the best description I've ever heard, and I nick it and use it all the time, is that if you forward face them before their field of vision is lengthened out, it's like being in the channel tunnel with 10 feet of light. So it feels like the world is coming at them very fast. It's not a nice experience for them. And then finally, and I think this is the most important one, we want them to be socially and emotionally ready to face the world without us. Because what we do when we forward face our baby in the carrier is we take away our face as a reference point. So if we're walking down a busy street and an ambulance goes past or a dog starts barking, when they face inwards, they can immediately gauge our reaction to that. To know whether it's a threat, whether it's scary, whether it's nothing to worry about. Similarly, if we're chatting to somebody and something's funny, they can see us laughing and they know this person's safe and funny. As soon as we face them forwards, we take that away from them. So we've got to be sure that they're ready to face the world without us as a reference point. And just because you can forward face your baby in the carrier and they're old enough, they're big enough, they're strong enough, it doesn't mean that's the only type of baby wearing we should then do, because we know they get lots of benefits from continuing to face inwards, from watching our facial expressions, from seeing how we interact with the world. And then finally, and probably the most important thing, is that no baby should ever fall asleep facing forwards. They might nod off, they might start to go sleepy as soon as they do, we must turn them around, and they should always have their naps facing back inwards so they get appropriate support from the carrier.

Natasha (33:35)

And one other thing is travelling with baby. Now I am going on holiday soon and you know I think a carier is so important when you're travelling with a baby.

Vern (33:46)

I think a carrier is an unbelievable travel hack. It makes you lightweight, makes you quick, moves you through the airport. I hope you've got your hands free for bags, suitcases, other children. I think it will help keep your baby calmer in a really crowded place full of great stimulus. And also on the aeroplane, it's a very, very practical way to move through a narrow space because your baby is the width of you, rather than trying to wrestle them down there tucked under one arm. So I'm a big fan of carriers for traveling. I also think once you are wherever you're going, it's an incredible way to explore together. There's often places you can get to with a carrier that you can't get to with a buggy. So that's a massive win. But also if your baby is that bit bigger, older, stronger, and they are forward facing, what an incredible way to show them wherever you've taken them and really experience that place through their eyes.

Natasha (34:43)

Yeah I love that. And if there's one thing we should be talking about in baby wearing, what is it that we're not talking about?

Vern (34:53)

I think the big thing for me, and we've kind of touched on it, but I think it needs to be more explicitly said. There are so many things in the modern world that are ways, tools, and opportunities for us to be apart from our baby. And the modern world will often pull us away from the most base, natural, evolved instinct, particularly in those first four months of life. Your baby does not even recognize themselves as a separate person from mum. They want to be on you. They want to be close to you. In their brain, they're going to be eaten by a sabre-toothed tiger. They do not know they've been born into a world of cots and iPhones and cars. All they feel is, want to be with this big person that can feed me, look after me. And a baby carrier makes all of that possible, without totally interrupting modern life. So I think if nothing else, we need to really try and help parents to understand that baby wearing should be a part of, doesn't need to be the whole part of, but it should be part of everyday life for you, your family, and your baby, particularly in those first four months. And the interesting thing with that is people who fall in love with baby wearing in the first four months tend to do it for a lot longer, and then they get all the long tail benefits.

Natasha (36:19)

So interesting.

Vern (36:20)

So that's the bit we should talk about is the importance of just doing a bit every day and appreciating that that is just the design. That's life. They're supposed to be on us and with us and close to us, particularly in those very vulnerable first four months.

Natasha (36:38)

This has been such an interesting chat. Thank you so much for coming on. I have one final question, which I ask everybody who comes on the Project Baby podcast. What is your love language?

Vern (36:48)

Okay, so because although I'm in my mid forties, I'm very cool and down with the TikTok crowd. I know exactly what you mean by love language. So my love language undoubtedly is a good old fashioned hug. We actually have a saying in our house. Anybody in our house says it's time to stop for a love and you have to stop whatever you're doing and give that person a big hug because there's no world in which a good hug doesn't improve a day. 

Natasha (37:12)

I love that. I actually really love that. That is such a good one isn’t it. I love that. I might have to do that at home with my children. So Vern, thank you so much for coming on the Project Baby podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure. If anybody wants to find out any more information about Carifit, where should they go?

Vern (37:30)

They can come onto our socials, which is just Cari_fit. You'll see us, we're well cool. We've got blue tick and everything. Or they can just find us at getcarifit.com.

Natasha (37:40)

And if you want to watch any more of the Project Baby podcasts, you can hit the subscribe button now. And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode.