The Secret to Sleep - With Heidi Skudder

This week, we're diving into one of the biggest challenges for new parents: sleep. From night feeds to sleep regressions, we’re unpacking it all — and revealing the real secrets to getting a good night's sleep with a baby.

Joining us is sleep expert Heidi Skudder, who shares practical tips, myth-busting advice, and her honest take on what sleep really looks like in those early months. Whether you're a new parent or just looking for better sleep strategies, this episode is for you.

Let’s get into it! 💤✨

Transcript

Natasha (00:00)

Welcome to the Project Baby podcast. We are joined by the wonderful Heidi Scudder from Positively Parenthood. Welcome, Heidi.

Heidi (00:23)

Thank you so much for having me.

Natasha (00:26)

Sleep, the number one subject for every parent.

Heidi (00:30)

Yeah, yeah, it's huge, isn't it?

Natasha (00:32)

Huge. Everyone wants it. Everybody wants it. Yeah. And we all don't get enough of it.

Heidi (00:36)

And everyone wants to know the secret of it as well, which we can talk about because there is actually no one magic secret. But there's so much to it.

Natasha (00:45)

So, take that newborn baby home from hospital. When do you start?

Heidi (00:48)

Yeah, I think this is really important actually because I think a lot of my clients have babies and have experience of friends having had babies and like they already know it's potentially going to be a nightmare or it's going to be a really big challenge or they've seen people kind of struggle through for a year or two with not sleeping. And so during pregnancy, what tends to happen as we focus on the birth as like the big thing that we need to research and kind of, you know, read about and whatever else. And that's great because that's really important. But then that happens very quickly or not for some, but you know, within a couple of days that's done. And then you've got the rest of the baby's life or toddler and child into teenage years to think about. And what I don't think we really quite get is actually reading up before baby arrives is quite a good thing to do when it comes to sleep because there's so much that I wish sort of new parents knew when they come home from hospital that you don't actually get told. You just, yeah, there's no manual. You don't necessarily get much information on sleep because it's all about feeding. And actually, you know what, that's really important to say, which is that with a newborn, establishing feeding is much more important than even thinking about a sleep routine. So going back to my point, my point was a lot of clients like, no, how do I, you know, we have phone calls or people filling out online form to say I've got a six day old and they're not sleeping and they book a call and we're like, we actually go back to them and we email and say, you don't need us right now because you don't need to be thinking about it. So, first few weeks, it's all about recover from the birth. Because my goodness, for some people that is full on. It's about skin to skin. It's about bonding with your baby. It's about just, just honestly recovering and enjoying and getting used to those new dynamics. I would actually say that newborn bubble. Yeah, exactly. Just don't even think about sleep. I mean, you are thinking about it in that you want it. But what you're not doing is thinking, I have to do a routine from day five. 

Natasha (02:37)

Okay.

Heidi (02:41)

Or one of the biggest myths, if you like, that I often bust is that you can spoil your baby and your mother-in-law or said relative might come around and say, making a rod for your own back, you're holding him too much, no wonder he won't go down. That's just not a thing. You can cuddle them, can contact nap, you can sling, you can baby wear. And actually I would actively encourage everyone to do those things in the beginning because sleep is sleep, however it happens to start with. And then we can start thinking about shaping their sleep. So for me, it's about sleep shaping, bit of a mouthful, sleep shaping from whenever you're ready. And for some people that'll be kind of, you know, quite often partner, maybe dad goes back to work at two weeks in this country and you get those two weeks, most of us, sometimes six weeks. That's often a time where mum's at home on her own and she's like, I think I need a bit more structure. But for others, that will be four months, six months, nine months, twelve months. So for me, like, there's no right or wrong. It really comes down to what that family wants.

Natasha (03:44)

If somebody came to you at six months and they said, my six month old just isn't sleeping, they're not past it, like to being able to get a good night's

Heidi (03:54)

No, no, no, no, no. You can choose to change sleep or troubleshoot if you like, at any stage. So we have two year olds, that have had a broken sleep for two years. They are maybe co-sleeping, which has worked up until then. And I think it's really important to say when we talk about sleep, it's kind of a you do you thing. So at Positively Parenthood, our tagline is your family, your way. And what we don't do is say, right, everyone has to have a routine from six weeks and everyone has to sleep train at six months or whatever else, that's not our vibe at all. Every family is different. Okay, so we've got families who love the newborn stage and they're going out and about and they have dinners out and they just do all of that lovely stuff together because they're learning their new dynamic. And then they get to four months and they're like, okay, cool, it's time for a bit of a routine now. So it's really about tuning into for us each individual family rather than saying, you should do it at this stage, but it's never too late. We work with children up to the age of five.

Natasha (04:51)

What about swaddling?

Heidi (04:53)

Yeah, swaddling, ⁓

Natasha (04:56)

Ita a topic that comes up time and time again at project baby and it's kind of like to swaddle to not swaddle is it good is it bad?

Heidi (05:04)

I think it has a bad rep because it kind of, what we need to be really careful of when we're swaddling is we don't swaddle the lower half. Okay. Because it can impact the development there. So what we want to look at is, you know, swaddle baby's arms. That's the bit that you're looking to swaddle and have the swaddle really loose and sort of baggy as it were over the hip. And a lot of those swaddle bags anyway will do that. You'll see the shape of them kind of contains the arms and then goes out so that they've got more movement there. Some babies love it and they need it and they want to feel like, if you think about a baby in utero, they're like this, so they can't really move. And that really helps them to sleep. And I was a night nanny for a very long time, I don't know how many years, seven, eight years. And honestly, I'd go in at maybe two weeks or three weeks or four weeks postpartum, have the baby overnight. And one of the things I would always do if they weren't sleeping well was swaddle them. The thing is, a lot of parents think the baby doesn't like the swaddle. It's actually just that the baby's like, what's going on? And the parent doesn't really know how to swaddle either. So everyone just gets a bit stressed and then the baby ends up crying. But what I would say about swaddling, it's also important that they learn to, they're born with lots of different reflexes and the reflex to throw their arms back is really important. And that will eventually go. So you're not swaddling them all day long. Like I've had six month olds who I've had to work with who have been swaddled for the whole time. So it's like, swaddle if they're not sleeping well, but don't swaddle all of the time. Give them some chance to also try and sleep with their arms above their heads and let that reflex slowly grow out so that they can become more independent and sleep. Most of them love sleeping.

Natasha (06:35)

Love sleep like yeah absolutely. We have to talk about happy tummies. So a question I get asked all the time is if my baby has a happy tummy and a comfortable tummy would they sleep better?

Heidi (06:41)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And this is, think, something that I have always sort of preached about. And if I'm honest, like really only in the last few years, maybe even in the last year or so, has it become much more mainstream. And the reason that we want to talk about tummies is because the gut, the microbiome, when a baby's born is very, sensitive and it can be impacted by all sorts of things. It can be impacted by, you know, mom's diet during pregnancy, stress, which although you may have not had any like big life events happen to you, like we are just stressed. Like we have to be honest, as mothers in pregnancy, we are stressed. So there's stress, there's, you know, mode of delivery, there's antibiotic use, which often happens, not always, but in birth. Sometimes often as a preventative as well, just in case of infection. So that's really important, obviously, if needed. But what that means is lots of these things can interrupt and sort of affect our baby's microbiome. So essentially in kind of everyday terms, they come out and their tummy's a bit unhappy. It's a uncomfortable. Then they're having to digest milk, which obviously is baby's source of nutrients and everything that they need, but some babies struggle more than others.

Natasha (07:58)

What can we do to make sure that our babies have got a happy tummy.

Heidi (08:01)

Yeah, so it's thinking about building their gut. So for example, probiotics, really, really important by BioGaia. There's specific strains of probiotics and you just want to make sure that you use one that's really well researched. yeah, so lactobacillus is one kind of probiotic that you can use and that ultimately helps with digestion of milk. So it's thinking about that. It's thinking about if they're formula fed, like what formula are they on? Is it the right kind of formula? I think there's a lot out there around like, all formulas are the same. So it doesn't really matter, but we see a massive difference when clients hop between brands. you know, you might be on one formula and actually you'll decide to swap or there's comfort milks as well, which can bring down the dairy content in a milk, which can really, really help a baby too. So there's just so much you can do. And I think the thing that really kind of gets me, two things. Babies cry, is one of the things you're told, like, babies just cry. You were like that as a baby, you just cried all the time. And we know from the research that number of hours crying can also reduce with things like use of probiotics as well. So it's not just about crying, about what is that baby trying to say? If they're crying all of the time, there's probably something going on. The other thing is, and this really gets me is it's just their temperament. You you've just got a spirited baby or a difficult baby. And actually a baby with a, in kind of brackets, difficult temperament would suggest to me that there's something else going on. And normally it is like, my tummy is not comfortable. I'm bloated, I've got wind, maybe I've got tongue tied and I'm taking an air. So if you do have a small baby that's seemingly unsettled, cries a lot, doesn't sleep, I'd always be going to the tummy first and going, what's going on here? So sleep is not just about routines and like knowing the stuff about sleep. It's also about being more holistic and looking at what's actually going on for that baby. ⁓

Natasha (09:45)

What about like tummy massages before bed?

Heidi (09:49)

Yeah, all of that. So baby massage can be really helpful. Making sure that you're winding them the whole time. So I think most...

Natasha (09:58)

It's an interesting one isn't it? I think because I think when you're trying to wind them you're like give them a few pats, get a nice good burp or something you think job done. You know what that certainly was my husband's take on that. He was like but I've done it.

Heidi (10:11)

And they want a medal when they've done it as well.

Natasha (10:13)

Yes, when you say burp them the whole time.

Heidi (10:15)

Yeah. So one burp is not enough. Okay. So after the feed burp, some time on their back because gravity really helps too. So like four or five minutes on their back or whatever it is that you're doing, you know maybe there's a play mat on the floor on their back, pick them back up, more wind comes up before they sleep. But the number one thing that really impacts baby's sleep in the first three months is wind. And if they've got wind, whether that's from their tummy or from their mouth, taking it in from, you know, their lats not being great or tongue tie, the wind is going to stop them being able to be put down and also waking up after like 10 minutes. So you know you do that whole like process of the swaddling and shh and calm and whatever and put them to bed and then they wake up 10 minutes later like your heart just goes into your chest because you've done all of that hard work and they've woken up. Winding makes that significantly better for most babies.

Natasha (11:04)

What about white noise?

Heidi (11:05)

Yeah, white noise is great. I love it. I think it's really, really useful. 

Natasha (11:09)

My little ones loved white noise and then as they have got a bit older it's like taken us a little while to get them to like not have to have it but they have they do love it and they have always settled with it.

Heidi (11:21)

Yeah, I think it's a really useful tool. I think again, it's about learning your baby. So if your baby comes out like kind of really able to sleep wherever, really comfortable, then probably sleep is going to quite easy for them. So it's a bit like swaddling. You probably wouldn't swaddle if they were like beautifully asleep, you know, arms are fast asleep, lovely, perhaps, etc. If they're finding sleep difficult, if you've got other children, a dog, live on a busy road. In a way you do want them to get used to the noises, but you also want them to sleep. So it's kind of a double edge sword where you've got to choose.

Natasha (11:52)

Lots of people would say like get that newborn home, run the Hoover around, get them used to the noise.

Heidi (11:58)

I would still encourage parents to go about their daily life and like make the noises but the white noise will take the edge off and if you have got a light sleeper and those are normally the babies who have tummy issues or whatever going on then the likelihood is they'll sleep better with it. So I think we've just got to think about you know as parents it is really hard we don't have a village it's modern day parenting so yeah sure like if the dog barks ideally they wouldn't wake up and they get used to it so we need to do the emails or the washing up or we don't have people around us to help. Some of these gadgets actually do come in really handy.

Natasha (12:28)

Really handy, see they are just valuable. How important is sleep routine?

Heidi (12:35)

Age old question. Sleep routines, I would say are really, really useful when they get to about that two to three month mark, where often parents are starting to go, I'd quite like a bit more sleep now. Okay, so if they're sleeping all day, you kind of expect to be up a lot in the night with a newborn. Although I would still wake them up if they're doing really, really long naps as a newborn, because you want to get those feeds in in the daytime. But I would say you will get to a point where you'll start to realise like, you just crave a bit of kind of normality or at least just knowing what happens when. And I think the biggest issue with routines is we're sold this idea that a routine is kind of Gina Ford-esque, which would be like eight o'clock, you've to have your toast, know, mum eats and it's very prescriptive, which doesn't work for most people. I mean, don't get me wrong. That is, you know, 20 years ago, how I started as a nanny. I would put them all onto that book routine, Gina Ford, and that's just what everyone did. But I think we know now that that doesn't work for a lot of people and also it can be quite difficult. I think we should talk about like anxiety around routines as well, because a lot of parents do get anxiety around like, well, they haven't done what the book said and there's routines in there and I think they're really, really important. But I always say use them as a guideline.

Natasha (13:50)

Yeah, every child is different. I have three boys and they're all so different. They're all so different. Reginald is three and a half and he has lots of other complex bits, but he's never had a full night's sleep and he's three and a half. And now we have potty trained as well. We're now being woken up for a wee in middle of the night. It's all of those things. So yeah, every child is so different.

Heidi (14:13)

It's so difficult isn't it? Exactly. And every parent's different too and some people really crave it. And I find a lot of my clients who've been like in big jobs or have like managed teams and stuff, they're then going to have a baby and they're at home on their own because dad's gone back to work or partner, whoever the other partner is. And they're just so overwhelmed that actually a routine will help them feel more settled. Yeah. And like they know what to expect and like they can control it. You can't, you can't control a baby, but at least it feels like it. Other people want to just go out and like do whatever and not worry about nap times and that's fine too. And again, it taps into that idea of like, it's, you do you, it's up to you.

Natasha (14:48)

Yeah. I never tracked, you know, the Wonder Leaps. What's your view on Wonder Leaps? So I never did Leaps either, but I know lots and lots of our readers do. And it's interesting because all three of mine have never done leaps. Whereas I hear lots of my friends and our readers say, we are in the Thunder Clap and we're in this part. And I'm like, you remember what? And they're like, he's not going to sleep tonight. And I'm like, well, he might.

Heidi (14:53)

I don't do leaps. No, but also what happens if you say he's probably not going to sleep tonight? Your baby is not going to sleep tonight. It's that whole thing of like, no one ever sees yellow cars, but when you buy a yellow car, you see yellow cars everywhere. Like it's exactly the same. they're actually not necessarily scientifically proven, but what is really important is sleep is not linear. So it's not flatlined, right? So if you have, if let's say you do have a sleeper and you get to three months and they're doing, I don't know, like eight hours at night and one feed, let's say, if you're really lucky.

Natasha (15:20)

Right.

Heidi (15:46)

that's not necessarily going to be what they do for the rest of time. It's a bit like sleep regressions. There's a four month, six month, eight month, 10 month regression, 12 month, I'll have clients say they're going through the 12 month sleep regression. like, okay, apart from the four month regression when sleep changes and the brain does shift a little bit, there is actually no kind of science behind a 12 month sleep regression. What is happening at 12 months is they might start nursery. They might be going on to cow's milk from formula or breastfeeding. They are having more complex foods. So, when they hit bumps in the road regressions, it's normally because they're developing. So it's a good thing, but it doesn't happen for every baby at 12 months. So like, you've got three children, you know, they've all kind of done the whole, you would hope, because of my job at the seven to seven thing from like four or five months, six months, they didn't have sleep regressions. So I think we've got to be really careful to like not look for stuff because sometimes it's not there. And when we put that on them, you know, the anxiety is really important as well. Like that can often transfer over. So are sleep regressions a thing? Yes, they go through developmental stages, but you don't have to wait out. So you don't have to look for them. I would just say like, just go with it and see what happens.

Natasha (16:56)

I think that's really great advice. And what about traveling with a baby? So you've got this routine at home and you've got it and you've nailed it, but now you want to go on holiday. But you also want to sit by the bar and have a drink in the evening with your hubby or your partner. Is it possible?

Heidi (17:17)

Yeah, do the holiday. And do you know what? My two year old is two and a quarter currently. Do the holiday before they walk. Because with a two year old it is not much fun. I mean, it's great you're away from home, but it is full on. Yeah, do you know what, honestly, I would say travel, travel, travel as much as you can if you can ⁓ with a baby. Worst case scenario, the routine goes out the window for the week, and then you come back and you reset. And they understand different environments as well. So when they get home, they will recognise like, there's my cot, there's my usual routine, da da da. The reason we do things like bedtime routines, so not strict day routines, but like a sequence of events in the run up to bed. So maybe like a bath, put PJs on, read a story, have a feed, sing the same song. That is a routine that they'll recognise away from home. So for example, when my son was four months old, we went on an overnight flight to South Africa. And even with all my experience, was like, is no way he's going to sleep on this flight. But I did, I took the little sleeping bag and I took the story and I did it. And you know, like he didn't fall asleep straight away, but he understood it. Those mini routines are created so that you can use them in different environments, whether it's grandma and granddad's house, or like if you're really lucky at the bar in Greece or whatever. Things like adding in an extra nap to their day so you can keep them up later. So they're not cranky and overtired whilst you have that nice cocktail at the bar. It's a really good idea. You can absolutely tweak the routine, make it more flexible. If they don't like the cot in the hotel, it's fine to have them in your bed, co-sleep, whatever you want to do. And then when you get home, depending on what your norm is at home, generally they'll fall back into it. And if they don't, you just tweak it a bit and give them a bit of a reminder and just settle them back in. A little bit Exactly. But that's so worth it. Three nights of maybe getting them back into their routine at home is worth seven nights by the bar.

Natasha (18:51)

I definitely think so, yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about the noise around sleep. I feel like lots of parents and lots of new parents get so overwhelmed with everything that's given to them through social media, from parents, from grandparents. It's just, it's so overwhelming. How can we help them?

Heidi (19:20)

That's a lot, isn't it? I think it's so hard now. And I'm not saying that it wasn't hard when we didn't have social media because parenting is always a challenge and it's always hard no matter what your circumstances. But what we now have is parents who are giving birth to babies, obviously, and then looking for information. We're probably in a kind of generation where there's even less postnatal support, like hands-on in-house midwives and stuff than there's ever been. And we have our phones that are literally listening to us. So even if you don't want to ask your phone about baby sleep, you're going to start scrolling and you'll get ads and stuff. You might even get our ads because we do ads and things. you've got to look at, I think for me is this, there's so much, whether it's Instagram, TikTok, all the platforms, there's so much noise. And you know, like if I'm honest, a lot of the noise is based on the fact that if you are slightly maybe aggressive in your content or very controversial in your content, you get more clicks and likes and you do better. So therefore people are using that as a technique to sell. And that's what I've actually found really difficult in the last few years with what I do is because I sit very much in the middle of like, do you know what? Got to listen to you. Like, what does your gut instinct say? Here's a range of different options, but you get to choose. And so therefore my content is very kind of compassionate and it's non-judgmental. But what happens is that might get lost in that noise for the reason that if you believe in cry out or you don't believe in cry out, you're going to really shout about it.

And then that leaves new parents thinking, well, what do do? Yeah. Cause I kind of think I want to go down the sleep training route, but I'm seeing all this stuff that's saying like, it's dangerous, it's bad, you know, attachment issues and things. So I think it has a place. And for example, if you want to know about wake windows, you head to our Instagram, it's there, you use it great. But I think it's really important that you kind of follow the accounts that make you feel good. Not the ones that don't. ⁓ Look for experience because...

anyone can become an expert on social media. Like, you can read my book and suddenly make an Instagram about it, please don't do that, but it can happen, right? And I've certainly seen that. I've seen the information that I've put out in that book is really the first time a baby book of this kind has been talking about things like comfort and tummies. And now it's become more mainstream because it's out there. So I think look for experience, look for if you want to also things like qualifications, whether it's sleep, whether it's nutrition, fitness, motherhood, like whatever it is.

there are experts and then there are people just kind of like jumping on the bandwagon. So it's really like fine tuning where you get your information from. ⁓ And whether it's Google or ChatGPT now is maybe even bigger than that. Just be really mindful. And for me, I think, for example, if you take my approach, it really does work, but you have to do my approach. There is no point in doing my approach, but picking another bit from another course and another bit from your mum, you know, visiting or your mother-in-law, whoever it is.

you've got to stick with it and believe in it. And it's that confidence in something also that will help make it work as well. It's when you start trying different things from different people and the WhatsApp groups from your antenatal class and try this and try this. And I think that's where actually our kind of one-to-one sessions come in really helpful because parents are so like, what the heck is going on? And what we do is we take all the information and go, okay, this is what you need to do. ⁓ So it's that just fine tuning what you're looking at, listening to you reading. And also again,

tuning into your gut instinct rather than taking part too much in that noise that is out there. It's hard. It's really

Natasha (22:47)

It's really hard, isn't it? And that is what I do love about Positively Parenthood, is that you empower the parents. Yeah, exactly. it's all about making them.

Heidi (22:54)

Yeah, it's a great word. Empowering.

Exactly. Knowledge is power. will always say knowledge is power. So I talk a lot about tummies, probiotics, you know, moving between different formulas. If you're formula feeding, there are some people who are like, you shouldn't touch that. You know, you're not a dietician. But I'm like, as long as parents know, they get to choose. I'm not saying they're like everyone has to move to that formula or take the probiotics. But when you have the knowledge behind you, then you get to decide as a parent. So I think it's really important that parents get all of the options, you know, benefits.

risks if you like, obviously there aren't actually risks, but things like positives, negatives, and then you tune into your gut and you go, which one works or feels like it's gonna sit best for me.

Natasha (23:36)

I think that's great advice. You've got all these years of experience and now you are a mum of three children. How was your own sleep journey?

Heidi (23:44)

⁓

it's been chaos. No, no, it's been amazing. ⁓ So I always get the question like, do you really do what you, you know, have you done all of that stuff in your book with your own? The answer is yes. ⁓ Purely because I really genuinely believe that sleep is so important. It's one of our pillars of wellbeing, obviously nutrition, sleep and children thrive on it. So yes, I have focused on sleep with mine. ⁓ As I have had more babies, they have become more complex journeys, which is often the case. So, you know, for example, my

First born was like seven to seven at four months and it's kind of how he's always been. I've been very lucky. My second also seven to seven from six months. But also a lot of people are like, oh, you're so lucky. But for me, it's not just luck. It's also knowing what to look at, like comfort. We've talked, we'll talk about that in a bit more detail, but things like comfort, things like silent reflux, things like food intolerances or sensitivities, they're not really talked about, but when you know about them and you can work on them, it massively improves their sleep. So there's that.

You know, we've obviously not had any other big medical stuff going on. However, then I had my third child and she did and she has and she does. So things like ENT issues, ear infections, ⁓ she's had allergies. She's basically had almost as much as I could probably put into two years. And that does make sleep more complex. So, you know, I'm very, very lucky, you know, like last night, for example, she did do the whole seven to seven thing, but.

What I should say is that when she's uncomfortable, when she's had dairy still at the age of two years, she'll be up scratching her head and itching for two hours in the nighttime when she has an ear infection. So I think there's so much that you can do on sleep and I'm very blessed and lucky to have the knowledge that I have. And again, for me, it's about the whole comfort journey. So if there's anything underlying, whether it's tummy stuff, whether it's medical issues, whether it's, you know, like neurodiversity, that can impact sleep too. So.

Sometimes journeys are straightforward, sometimes they're not, but there's so much you can do around those things to make them as comfortable as possible. I don't think people should look at my content and think, my baby should be doing seven to seven, because I am, I've done this for 15 years, right? So it's not going to happen necessarily. But I guess my passion lies in it is possible, whether it's seven till six, seven till five, 30 in the morning, whatever it is, it is possible to get that chunky amount of sleep, but we have to look at sleep really well and really holistically.

Natasha (26:02)

Yeah, I definitely think I'm going to have a good read of your book because we are still at three and a half and yeah, we have our moments, but I definitely think you're probably right. I could juggle some bits.

Heidi (26:13)

You've got so much going on as well, though, and that's the thing you talk about kind of more complex cases. So I have worked with those babies who will be in the kind of three to five night magic, magic fix, obviously not magic, but it feels like very quick fix. And then the majority of my client base now are those babies who have underlying, I was speaking to them this morning, underlying possible aspirating where they swallow the liquid into their lungs, asthma.

high allergy baby and all of those things make sleep more complex. So you're not going to get that kind of magic 11, 12 hours necessarily, but you can still have a great routine. You can still look at awake windows. There's so much still that you can do around that. So I just, yeah, I don't know. I sort of feel like if someone says to me, my child just doesn't sleep. if you've got three and a half year old, I'd still want to talk about like why exactly and what else can be done.

And if it gets to the point where you're like, I've done as much as I can do, then that's great. We go, that is just his sleep journey. But I think that bit in between of, I've just got a bad sleeper, but you know, is there more stuff to be done?

Natasha (27:15)

Yeah,

absolutely. And I also do you that ⁓ the parents mental health side of things, do you feel like sometimes that can play a huge part in setting a routine and being ready to set that routine? Because for myself, I suffered with post-natal depression once I had Reggie and I didn't want to do any routine until, and then we got to so long into the...

like non-sleep, they just become the norm. But I wasn't mentally ready to take on a tough.

Heidi (27:48)

Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really important. And I think all of the sleep stuff, there are two sides to every story and every bit of sleep. So there's the side of parents who like really want the sleep because it does impact their mental health. So one of the things that is so well researched is the impact of a mother's mental health, obviously on the baby, but also the impact of sleep on a mum's mental health. it's that tricky space of like, yeah, you definitely were not in the right head space to do it. It does take head space.

But also once you're into that kind of routine, you might have more sleep and more headspace. So they kind of lead into each other. And I think it's this whole thing about pressure and never making sure, never telling someone they should be doing something. And it has to be the right time because it takes time and energy. However, the other side of it is life could be a lot easier and there could be more sleep for everyone.

Natasha (28:40)

I suppose if you got a good support from your partner and your partner was on board and ready to take on the challenge as well with you, that definitely would help.

Heidi (28:47)

And also when you do it from the beginning, which is what my book's all about, is the sort of nought to four month journey. It's not this big project that like you've got to take a week off work and all focus on like it just naturally happens because you're like shifting and shaping from the beginning. So there's so much you can do in those first few months where you don't then have to do this big kind of sleep training or routine like project later on because you've sort of implemented it from the word go. As a parent, you want to do everything you can to help support your little one and their tummy. ⁓

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Natasha (29:54)

So we asked some of our readers and listeners for some questions. I've got a couple of questions for you. So one of our lovely ladies, she says, my baby is 16 weeks old. I still feed him to sleep. Should I stop? My gut is like, why? But you tell me.

Heidi (30:12)

Yeah. And I think it's in the language, right? So the should. Where is the should? Where is that coming from? And I think what's really important is I love a baby who is like in a good routine, you know, sleeping really well, can settle themselves to sleep because I know, and I have seen in my experience that that carries them through. However, I am never going to say to a parent, you should stop feeding. You should stop rocking. And again, it comes back to like,

If it's a problem and that baby that's 16 weeks old is waking up every hour, then that would be one of the things I would look at. I'd be like, well, how do they get to sleep? Because that can impact how many times they wake up at night time. But if she's loving it and she's just thinking she should because I don't know, she's seen some sort of thing on social media or like mom has said to her or someone in the family said to oh, you shouldn't be feeling to sleep. That's just not a thing. So it's really hard as a parent and a mom in particular, but I think

We lose sight of our gut instinct and sometimes I'll just say to clients like, just take this information that I've given you, sit, go away from the phone call, sit and just tune into your gut and be like, what is my gut telling me? Like what's the right thing to do? Not what everyone else is doing.

Natasha (31:20)

we all know when our time is right to stop doing anything. But I think we should all be true to ourselves. And actually, our household is our household, your household is your house. You do you, I do me.

Heidi (31:31)

Some people love feeding to sleep and you know for others it's like I don't know there's kind of closeness because something else is going on so so many clients go through these phases of you know there's a bereavement in the family or even the separation in a relationship so there's so many different reasons to hold on to comfort and one of them can just be I just want to do it as well and that's fine.

Natasha (31:52)

Yeah. The next question is, can I tell if my baby is tired? It sounds really obvious, right? But it's not always.

Heidi (31:59)

It's not always. And lots of babies won't show you signs that they're tired until they're what we call overtired. And that is a big thing as well. So what I would say is every baby's different, but I would look at rough awake window guidelines. So awake window is kind of the period of time where a baby can be awake before they often start to get cranky and overtired. And so, I don't know, for a three month old, that'd be about an hour and a half. And that is a guideline. Okay. So it's not like at one hour 30, you have to run to the bedroom and like swaddle them and do whatever.

but I would look at those rough awake windows and then start to track the patterns. So, all right, often just before they get too tired, they start like looking into space. You kind of see them just kind of not flake out, but they just look a bit kind of zen. But when they start yawning and getting cranky, that's often when they're going the opposite way and they're a bit overtired. Yeah, they're overtired. Yeah, so it's kind of finding their sweet spot and it's different for every baby. But the awake windows are a really good guide, which we have like on our Instagram and stuff or in the book.

And every sleep, what's really confusing is every sleep consultant has different ones, but based on my experience they work pretty well.

Natasha (33:04)

In your experience, right.  What advice would you give for the clocks changing? Because this just sends parents wild. They're like, we're never going to sleep again.

Heidi (33:12)

Yeah, absolutely. I would say it's an hour. Okay, so frame of reference is babies respond really usually quite easily to things like an hour here or there. It's a bit like the advice for, you know, going on holiday jet lag. Like if you're going to like Australia and it's 12 hour time difference, then yeah, okay, we might spend some days up in the run up kind of tweaking things. ⁓ It's an hour. So you just do depending on obviously the clock change, you would just do like

shift your nap times, you can do in the run up before shift your nap times by 15 minutes in sleep time so that you kind of make up that hour by the day that the clocks go back in the winter. Or you can just literally get to the Saturday, it's normally the Saturday night isn't it, 2am or 1.30am or whatever it is. You can just get to that day and the next day get up, start with the new times and honestly in two, three days there they've normally adjusted. So it is something that I think a lot of sort of parents focus on a lot. But the reality is it takes a couple of days to fall back. of days. Yeah, exactly.

Natasha (34:07)

Stick with that. Okay we've got some myths, like are they true or are they myths? Okay, porridge before bed. A myth or is it...

Heidi (34:18)

Yeah. True. The porridge before bed is the whole like fill them up and they'll sleep.

Natasha (34:23)

But it seems like it's such a thing that my nan would have said to my mum.

Heidi (34:28)

Yeah, it's a bit like, you know, put baby rice in their bottle, which by the way, you should never ever do. Porridge before bed. So like for an older child who had had dinner early and might need a snack before bed, because they're very, very active, it might be something you think about for a baby, no. And actually, the irony of this is like the more you give them to eat at the end of the day and fill them up, often the less well they sleep because they're too full and they're trying to digest all of this stuff before bed. Whereas actually, they're trying to sleep and they don't really want to be digesting masses of food. Not for a baby no definitely not.

Natasha (34:59)

Not for a baby. Ok. Cry it out is best.

Heidi (35:05)

It's so tricky and I think what's really important is like never to judge because so many parents have done it and they've maybe been in times where they're they're so desperate they don't know what else to do they maybe can't afford to speak to a sleep consultant or they don't know any, any differently so quiet out is you know if you've done it it's absolutely a means to an end if you like. We go in the middle.

So we don't go absolutely no crying, we also don't do cry out. We do the kind of middle ground approach, which is like, we've got four or five different approaches, methods, if you like baby sleep methods to follow. And again, which one sits right to you. don't think there's any right or wrong. And I think the thing about cry out loud is it sort of is dressed up as this thing where you like close the door and you leave the baby to cry. And that is cry out. And so that's why I say we personally don't recommend it. But if you're doing some sort of sleep training, sleep coaching,

Natasha (35:39)

So there's no right or wrong.

Heidi (35:56)

there's going to be periods where your baby's crying. That is different to cry it out because you might be, instead of feeding, you might be rocking them, for example, but they might still be crying. So it's not really the crying we should be worried about. It's the kind of, are we doing with the crying and how responsive are we being? And to be honest, like all of the methods that most mainstream sleep consultants use will be responsive. We're not really of the generation now where we're like, you know, put them in the garden to nap all day long and close the door at night time for 12 hours, that kind of thing.

Natasha (36:26)

What about keeping baby awake will help them sleep longer?

Heidi (36:30)

Hmm,

again, like slightly old fashioned, I would say. ⁓ For most babies, decent daytime sleep leads to decent nights and less early waking. There are definitely situations where you want to cut down on the naps. know, let's say six to eight months, they generally go from three to two naps. At 12 months, go from 12 to 18 months, they go from two to one. And then anywhere between two and four, they go to zero naps. So there are stages where you need to cut down their day's sleep. ⁓

But overall, I would say it's about having a decent day time routine rather than just not sleeping in the day at all.

Natasha (37:01)

Fair enough. What about swaddling should stop at two months?

Heidi (37:06)

I would say 12 weeks. so by 12 weeks. And it's that idea of we want them to get used to that reflex, or that reflex where he wants to eventually go. But it's also that they can start rolling and they need to be out of a swaddle before they're rolling. Right. Which is most babies is four months, but would say my aim is always to get them out of a swaddle by about 12

Natasha (37:24)

About 12 weeks, you’re saying. Yeah. Nap in a cot or it doesn't count

Heidi (37:32)

Exactly, pram, sling, like on you. There's no, absolutely no, nothing to suggest that like a on you would be any less beneficial. In fact, contact naps have lots of benefits too. So I think this idea of like having to be in the cot for every nap, I think we've moved away from it, generally speaking. ⁓ But if anyone says to you, the naps always have to be in a cot, I probably wouldn't be taking their advice.

Natasha (37:55) Fair enough, fair enough. And that is the end. But I do have one final question. Go for it. A question we ask everybody who comes on the Project Baby podcast is what is your love anyway?

Heidi (38:07)

have five. Mine is definitely words of affection. So ⁓ I like getting praise from my partner. And also to be fair, like I'm in the parenting arena saying lovely things to our children. Like, I love the way in which you just pick that toy up. That was so helpful. It can just do so much good for everyone. So I think we don't get told enough. Like you look amazing today, by the way. You've done a great job, by the way.

Natasha (38:10)

Thank you.

Heidi (38:34)

where I think that kind of stuff is really important for anyone, so yeah, I'd go with that.

Natasha (38:38)

I love that. Thank you so much for joining us today. if our listeners and readers want to find out more about your services, welcome.

Heidi (38:47)

Yeah,sure. my book, Here and Here, lovely. It kind of goes with our vibe today as well, pink and blue. This is available on Amazon and you can find me at Positively Proudhood on Instagram and I'll send a website for the show notes and stuff. So if anyone wants to get in touch, they can.

Natasha (39:01)

and I'll link it all on the bio below. And if you would like to continue watching any more of the Project Baby podcasts, you can hit the subscribe button below. And we look forward to seeing you again soon.